have been up all night. pining over bristol's loss. >> bristol made it pretty far. >> daniel says i'm preparing for at the airport got to look nice for my enhanced pat down. >> that's a good down. axe body spray too to close the deal. "morning joe" starts right now. it has been since the korean war, and we strongly affirm our commitment to defend south corey gentleman as part of that alliance. >> we l we perhaps send war ships or would you put u.s. troops on alert? >> i'm not going to speculate on military actions at this point. i want to consult with president

lee. >> good morning. it's wednesday, november 24th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset -- >> harold ford junior is here. look at this. we have the president of the council on foreign relations richard haass. from washington, msnbc political analyst and right next to me, very exciting -- great, big day. it's back. let's talk about it? >> no. we got bigger things to talk about. >> all right. >> donald trump will be on the show. >> we have a possible war on the korean peninsula. >> and peggy noonan will be here. >> i spoke to donald yesterday and he has some very, very clear ideas as to what to do about this problem. >> do you think donald trump

wants to invade china because he sees a market over there? >> no. that's not his concept. wait till you hear it. it's good. and my dad will be on who has a great piece in the financial times, america and china's first big test. we'll talk about that. south korea says it has found bodies of two civilians bringing the death toll in yesterday's attack to four. the news comes as president obama pledges to hold joint military exercises with south korea as a first response to the north's prove investigation. the president met with top advisors on the issue in the white house situation room yesterday. the administration released a statement saying, quote, this evening president obama called president lee to tell him the united states shoulder and shoulder with our close friend and ally, the republic of korea. the united states will work with the international korea to

strongly condemn this outrageous action by north korea and advance peace and security in the region. nbc news has also learned new details about the incident. for more than an hour the two sides alternately exchanged fire with the north setting off about 80 artillery shells. the south actually fired more, about 90. south korea claims they inflicted heavy casualties on the north but that's impossible to verify. according to a report by north korea's state news agency, as his country was on the brink of war yesterday, leader kim jong-il spent the day touring a soy sauce factory with his youngest son and heir apparent. >> richard haass, i never knew the north koreans were the source of soy. you try to dig out the most germane fact. i think we have it there. we were talking before why americans should not only care

about this, why they should be worried. two very big reasons. one you touched on before the show, that the president said last night, an attack on south korea is an attack on america, and that means the possibility of war on the korean peninsula. >> absolutely. south korea is a formal ally of the united states. we're obligated. we have tens of thousands of troops there. what happens on the korean peninsula would affect every alliance relationship we have with japan and others. asia has emerged as the critical arena of 21st century history. what happens on the korean peninsula is integral to how the world is going to play out. secondly, north korea is a global threat to the united states. this is a country prepared to sell anything, whether it's drugs, counterfeit dollars, missiles or -- >> al qaeda, iran -- >> they're a global threat to the united states. we face two scenarios. one is the sort of thing we've seen in the last 24 hours, where north korea acts aggressively

towards its neighbor as it does periodically and we're on the hook to come to their aid. secondly, north korea could emerge as a global threat to us, they could provide the most dangerous materials to the most dangerous groups in the world. >> pat buchanan, a dangerous scenario. our troops are tied down in afghanistan. by the warks while i was sleeping, 2014 date actually got fudged a little bit more. and now we're beyond 2014. it's amazing we went from 2011 to 2014, now beyond that. we're tied down in iraq. you've got people on the right and joe lieberman talking about a war with iran. this is -- north korea, this is a real threat. if they continue to be attacked, we east got stretch ourselves even further and provide assistance there. >> that's right, joe. but my feeling has always been i thought we should have the ground troops out of south korea. if south korea sat tacked,

provide them with air and naval support. the united states is spread enormously thin. there are folks pushing for confrontation and conflict with iran when we've got two other wars going. i don't think our options are very good with north korea. i think we simply have to play a defensive game here. let them take the lead in what they're going to do. i don't think they want a major war either with the united states. i don't know what benefit -- or south korea. in a major all-out war, one end of it would be the end of north korea and that regime. >> the bottom line is, this is china's back yard. china is not going to permit a lot of american troops in their back yard. people may be shocked by that fact. that's another real problem. >> i think your fact her speak to some of this a little later. it will be important to -- i'd love to hear richard comment on the opportunity for china to show the kind of maturity and

leadership that behooves a nation of its strength and power and one that wants to be a dominant force and is a dominant force economically and wants to be a dominant force in the 21st century. pat and richard, there may be little tension in what they said. pat mentioned we should have the presence we have in south korea. the larger question is the one you raise about how stretched we are. the president made the right comments. we are america. we will find the means and resources if we have to take steps beyond where we are today militarily. what this will beg afterward is how long, how big and how serious and sustained should our presence be in afghanistan without a strategic objective on the ground. >> it is stung over the weekend in afghanistan we have a date that goes from, again, 2011 to 2014. that entire conference was to fudge the 2014 date. we're now beyond that. >> we have spent the better part of the post 9/11 decade in two

places which i would argue was strategically secondary at best, iraq which was a war of our own cho choosing and afghanistan which is now a war of choice. what is the first order threat? what do we really need to focus on? this is the sort of thing -- >> north korea, pakistan, iran. >> exactly. >> those are the three country that is pose the greatest risks to us. yet we've got hundreds of thousands of troops scattered elsewhere. >> at the end of the day, strategy is about determining priorities and matching your limited resources to those priorities. when historians write about the united states in this era, the biggest critique is going to be we allocated our resources to the wrong challenges and we didn't keep them in reserve to focus on what really matters most. >> of course, richard, obviously you would agree with me that in 2001 we needed to go into afghanistan. >> absolutely. >> but the purpose of that mission ended four or five years

later. >> we succeeded. the idea was to essentially rid afghanistan of al qaeda. we essentially succeeded. they relocated to pakistan. >> they actually should have put mission accomplished on a rock somewhere in 2005 and gotten us the hell out of afghanistan. we can stay there forever, and the scenario is not going to change at all unless we want to occupy it with a million troops. we're not going to do that. >> richard has written about it. there's no real strategic objective on the ground and we could stay indefinitely. in fairness, one of the other great "morning joe" family members, john mech chapel has said repeatedly north korea presents a different kind of threat when he talks to those around the world. kim jong-il has named his successor. what happens when he dies? that next week is what scares foreign military policy experts. hopefully this strategy or this

strategic prioritizing will take on a different kind of importance in the coming weeks and coming months. >> what's china's game? i've been curious for the past couple years why china who has the ability to crush north korea not only militarily, but economically, why has china allowed them to be such a bad actor on the world stage? >> one thing is they don't want a collapse of the north korean regime which would mean hundreds of thousands of north koreans moving into china. they're building up missile forces and submarines and naval forces in order to project power out to the second and third chain of islands all the way out to guam. recently when the united states conducted naval exercises, the chinese said stay off the western coast of north korea with your aircraft in the east china sea and south china sea. they are claiming all that basically as their territorial

waters. they want ultimately the united states military and naval forces out of asia. >> actually, i don't think that's right. i don't think the they want us out of asia. they want us there to keep a collar on japan. china has another bigger strategic issue on the korean peninsul peninsula. north korea will fade. then you'll have a united korea peninsula in the american strategic and diplomatic orbit. that adds to china's sense of encirclement. that would be a strategic setback. that's the reason china won't exert the influence they could. they essentially don't want north korea to unravel. china prefers some dangerous status quo. >> if north korea continues this threat and it has these new p-2

centrifuges, you could see both south korea and japan looking to a time when the united states does pull back because we're overextended and going themselves for a nuclear deterrent. that certainly would not be in the interest of the chinese. they would not like to see that. >> richard, how seriously do we take north korea. it seems like every time this comes up, he says, well, he's the cookie little guy up there, as tom brow broe kau said yesterday, do we take him seriously enough? they sunk the ship, back in march, the south korean boat. the response seemed a little muted. >> we do take their serious because their craziness is part of their threat. they're unpredictable, dangerous. that said, we don't want to provoke them. that's why american policy seems almost inconsistent over the years. we want to resist the north but don't want to provoke them. after the sink of the south korean ship and this recent

incident you see the u.s. and south korea being so restrained. they're scared of setting off the crazies. on the other hand, you don't want north korea to learn the lesson they can act with impuni impunity. next time they will cross the line and we'll be off to the races. think about this situation that we'll talk about throughout the show and this next story and have some perspective. travel could be a little more challenging the day with protests planned at airports across the country due to the new enhanced security measures in being what's called national opt-out day. demonstrators are urging travelers selected for a full-body scan to refuse the procedure possibly spacks massive delays. john pistole says his he's asking forl a way to make pat-downs less invasive. a new u.s.a. today gallup poll

say 71% say any potential loss of privacy is worth it as a means of preventing acts of terrorism while 27% it's not. those people getting in the way -- seriously get a life -- actually keep your life by doing it. >> in fact, i'm traveling today. stay the hell out of my way. stay the hell out of my airport. stay home. willie, as you know, any time we get an opportunity -- >> what did i do? >> i'm helping the kids. >> getting groped -- >> i gave willie a pat-down the other day. >> and two, i'm helping the kids. while i'm helping the kids. >> he's the jerry lewis of his generation. >> this is, for 2010, this goes down as the most ginned up story of the year. it was ginned up by news agencies leading into the busiest travel day of the year. i have yet to talk to an american in new york city or

beyond that doesn't say i'd rather them pat me down than let somebody blow up a plane that my kids and i are on. this isn't a close call. i'm tired of the -- these tsa people are being scapegoated for doing their jobs. what is their jobs? keeping my little boy my little girl, my wife and my two older boys safe. that's their job. >> pointed out again, for all the noise, less than 2% of travelers will get these pat-downs. it's not like half the country is being patted down. a tiny group of people is being patted down. you might say it violates your civil liberties, i say it's worth a little groping. >> one terrorist strike and we'll all be changing our tunes. >> it's a win-win for me. i get groped and my plane is safe. come on.

seriously. happy thanksgiving america. that's a good point, harold. if we want to have a big debate and say we're not going to pat you down in certain places, if i'm a terrorist, that's where i put the bomb. we're not going to talk to pat buchanan about where they'll be putting the bombs in the future. >> we're opting out of the conversation with you about this. coming up, lieberman's limited options. politico says the connecticut senator has two paths to choose from when his term ends in 2012 and runs as an independent isn't one of them. late night with chris christie. yes, the new jersey governor talked with -- >> i'm uncomfortable. >> i wish i stayed up to watch that. that's the greatest. anyhow, he talks with jimmy fallon about the possibility of being vice president and shares his thoughts on sarah palin.

i hope, unlike other guestless on our show. after the break, your "morning joe" business on the go headlines. first the holiday forecast with broadway bill karins. >> wasn't paying attention there. i wasn't sure if there was a pat-down going on. winds gusting this morning, 30-mile-per-hour gusts. it's sunny and cool. that's the problem with new england in the airports. there's going to be huge volume problems. when you get to gusty winds at logan, hartford, the new york city airports, i expect delays today. give yourself obviously your window of extra time. forecast for thanksgiving day, a little more interesting, rain will be moving in during the day. the thanksgiving day parade, it looks to come in late in the day, not during the morning. macy's parade in new york city should be just fine. travel trouble spots st. louis, chicago will have rain. minneapolis will have ice and snow. those major airports also could have problems. for thanksgiving day, heavy rain throughout the ohio valley where

flood watches have already been issued. southeast and west coast, you're looking just fine in the next two days. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. when i was 16, i was hired as a cashier

at the walmart in marinette, wisconsin. that first job launched my career. since i've been with the company, i've been promoted ten times over the span of 11 years. today, i'm a divisional learning and development manager. we can actually help people develop in their own careers. my job allows me to make a difference in the lives of almost 100,000 associates in the northeast. if you think about it, that's almost 8 times the size of my hometown. my name is nick and i work at walmart. ♪

then there was one wonderful moment when you had herbert walker bush and barbara bush and larry king and george w., their son sent in a videotape to wish them well for the holidays. magic. we have it here. take a look. >> speaking of george w., he has a message for both of you. and if you'll look to your screen, we will show you. >> are my testicles black?

>> pretty nice. >> sweet. we have the context. you don't need the context. we've already said it three times on this show. >> that's what you have cell phones for. you ask those questions privately. >> that's not the question he was telling the story about, that his father asked the nurse was are his test results back? >> i don't understand why he would say that to his parents. the morning papers, "los angeles times" despite growth in gdp and rise in corporate profits, the federal reserve offered a pessimistic outlook predicting unemployment would remain high for years to come. more ahead on our "business on the go" segment. >> this is so problematic. this is not basic cycle. we've got structural problems with this economy. ""anchorage daily news"," no body scanning machines will be installed in your airports until next year.

on the other hand, many alaskan travel lers can expect to get frisked. seattle times, why can't we handle snow. the mayor of see at sl promising the take a hard look at their winter storm response after less than three inches yesterday paralyzed roads and broot parts of the history to a halt. the atlanta journal constitution, pack plenty of patience. >> what an exhaustive phrase. for "morning joe's" business on the go, here is nicole lapin from cnbc headquarters. we'll start with the conflict between north and south korea weighing heavy on the markets yesterday. >> there's so many aspects to these stories, guys. you have that covered. but as for the markets aspect, the south korea cuss pi and the juan fell. some of the calm can be summed up by the bottom picking we saw

in a major selloff in major stock markets yesterday n. the united states we were off about 1% on worries out of the region. as you know, when the world feels a little shaky, you know who gets love? the dollar gets some love as it always does. gold treasuries, the safety play. that's probably what we'll see when markets open today, guys, more love. >> so we just were talking before you came on with the headline talking about a long-term economic problem. the fed does not expect a quick turn-around economically over the next year or two. what does that mean for the markets over the next week? >> the headline obviously is the fed slashing forecasts for this year and 2011. what i found much more stunning is it's slashing forecasts for the next five to six years. it's saying it can take that long. >> that's a pretty broad -- richard haass, are you surprised by that, the next five or six years? >> economically no.

maybe politically that they were so explicit. this is the new normal. we're looking at a strategic period of sluggish, low growth for a number of factors. there's still trillions of dollars of bad debt in the american economy. >> the housing sector is not going to turn around for a long time. >> no. that's a tremendous overhang. that's what the fed is reacting the. >> has the market factored this? ? did the market know this before gentle ben told us? >> some say it's already been priced in. they're talking about unemployment, growth, inflation and taking a long time to get that in check. they're pulling massive purse strings here. that's extremely forward looking. markets will be looking to bagging indicators to set the tone this morning. jobless claims out, durable goods, personal income coming out at 8:30 in the morning. we get consumer sentiment as well. it was supposed to be a shortened ho-hum week. >> nicole, do you have plans for

thanksgiving? >> just working. money never sleeps and neither do we. >> that's what willie and i say. >> nicole lapin. >> i'll see you here tomorrow morning, sir. >> no, no -- >> the 3:00 a.m., pre show meeting at 3:00 a.m. the executive editor for politico jim vandehei with a look at the morning playbook. good to see you. first things first, somehow mike allen's nose? >> his nose is fine, a minor hunting accident. what happens in the woods stays in the woods. >> the scope hit him in the face. >> he plays right through the pain, on camera, big bandage on his nose. it was awkward. >> remember the song, ran into the door again. now it's hunting accident.

seriously? i ran into a tree. fell out of a deer stand. >> big ben was smacking him around. >> can't smack mike around. >> let's talk about joe lieberman up in connecticut, the former democratic vice presidential candidate, turned independent. up for re-election in 2012. what are his chances? what party is he going to run with? what's going on? >> he's one of maybe three centrists left in washington after this election. it looks like after 2012 it's going to be really hard for him to stick around. a couple of things, one. he could never run as a democrat. a republican, it's very difficult for anyone to win as a republican if he were to become a republican. the idea is he would try to run as an independent, he's an independent who caucuses with the democrats. there's a bunch of reasons that won't work. one, polls show he'll get clobbered by chris murphy at the top of the ticket running in 2012 and also because of this weird glitch in the law there he can't run on the line that he

ran from last time which was connecticut for lieberman. the party that he would create can't have the word connecticut in it, can't have the word lieberman in it. there's that logistical thing he'd have to overcome. the future doesn't look bright for joe. >> approval ratings right now 33% in the state of connecticut. >> it is. it's tough to see a path for him to get through. >> you think he retires? >> i don't know. i think there's still a chance that republicans will sed dues him into becoming a republican. remember he was very close to being the vice presidential nominee for mccain last time around. republicans, especially on foreign policy issues like him a lot. >> democrat, independent republican, covering all the bases. jim vandehei, thank you very much. the co-author of "game change," our friend john heilemann will be here in a few minutes. could bristol palin do the i'm pos snbl. >> did she win? >> you'll have to wait and see. we'll cover this story for the

final time. >> thank god. end it. can you imagine derek jeter in anything but pinstripes? this morning they're daring their captain to test the free agent market. basically saying good luck jeter. sports is next. so, during sign then drive i can get a cc for just my signature? that's right, right now you can take home a volkswagen for just your signature, like the cc or the tiguan. huh. yeah, plus every vw includes scheduled carefree maintenance. really? that's great. there you go. that guy's pretty good too. yeah, he's ok.

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pretty shot of capitol hill. 33 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." government officials say it is homeland security department is recommending to the white house that the color-coded terror alert system be replaced with a more descriptive way to tell the public about threats. according to the associated press, a plan hasn't been finalized and other government agencies including the white house need to sign off. by scrapping the colors, president obama would be abandoni abandoning a system too fact vaig to be useful. the so-called happy meal ban is

still on in san francisco despite efforts by a the bored of supervisors voted to override. the law bans all fast footrest rants for handing out toys with the unhealthy meals unless they reduce the shug gar content. mcdonald's has been an outspoken opponent of the legislation. >> here you go. these are double chocolate chip. >> knew some criticized the measure for going too far. >> would you like a chocolate chip cookie? >> more talented than i knew. these are good. let's go to sports with willie. what's up? >> in one second. the rangers josh himt was named american league most valuable player, 22 of the 28 first place votes. his career nearly derailed by substance abuse. he had major problems with drinking drugs.

he's overcome that. he led the rangers to the franchise's first world series appearance. led the major leagues with the .359 batting average. second place is cabrera and third is robinson cano. >> he's got a guy that follows him around, sort of a spiritual adviser, a born-again christian. he has a guy that follows him wherever he goes to keep him clean. >> yeah. he had terrible -- over about four years could not kick the stuff. has gotten his life together and won the mvp. a great story. >> it's like lewis. >> except lewis hasn't gotten it together yet. lewis is always trying to get me to take drugs. i'm like no, son, get high on life. we've got to talk about derek jeter. the contract negotiations -- >> does this hurt you? >> a little bit. he's a free agent. talks aren't going so well. on sunday jeter's agent made a comment saying he was baffled by

the yankees' offer of three years, $45 million suggesting they were not treating the yankee legend the way he deserved it. >> i wish someone would baffle me that way. >> yankees general manager didn't take kindly. saying we understand derrick's contributions to the franchise, our offer has taken them into account. we've encouraged him to test the market and see if there's something he would prefer other than this. if he can, fine. that's the way it works. >> you'd have to go back to mickey mantle to find somebody -- willie, you're a huge yankee fan. hank aaron fan. they traded him to milwaukee. >> i'm a huge derek jeter fan but $15 million a year for a to-be 37-year-old is far from insulting. it's probably twice what he'd get on the open market. >> $5 million is what they offer

derrick jeet ter brand. this is an extraordinarily generous offer for a guy who can't cover his position anymore, who is in the downward years of his career. it's bad, also, for the jeter brand. >> he won the golden glove. he should have won a golden glove. i mean more than a golden glove. harold, what do you think? >> it's unfortunate. it's hard for him. if he wants to go out making more, let him do it. i've got to tell you, 9.6% unemployment rate, it's hard to -- >> the yankees got to win, too, pat buchanan. in the end it's about a business. when you spend that much money, you expect to win a world series. they expect to get players that are over the top. >> derrick jeet ser a class act. he's the name of the yankees. if i were limb, i would take it. go back and play ball, for

heaven's sake. >> there are a lot of years ahead, richard, who talked about his brand. there are a lot of deals in the future. if he keeps his -- >> he represents class. he ought to act in a lassie way. he has a long-term trajectory. >> part of the idea is he wants a longer contract to finish at about age 40. the argument is the yankees have the money. just give to it him as a lifetime achievement award. >> this is like north korean, if this goes to war, there are no winners, only losers. >> take it, just take it. >> are the papers saying anything about snit. >> we dare you. >> the "new york post" on the back page putting him in a red sox uniform. that's not going to happen. >> i don't know. >> do you want derek jeter? >> johnny damon wasn't -- he was a great player.

>> the led socks are in the position the yankees are in, they're spending tons of money. we'll be right back with john heilemann and mika's must-read op pages. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. did you know a problem in your heart can cause a stroke in your brain? it's true. an irregular heartbeat, called atrial fibrillation, or afib, can make a blood clot form, here, in your heart, that can break free and go straight to your brain where it can cause a serious stroke. having atrial fibrillation gives you a 5 times greater risk of stroke than if you didn't have it. strokes that are twice as likely to be deadly or severely disabling as other types of strokes. if you, or someone you care for, have atrial fibrillation, even if you're already taking medication, there are still important things you'll want to know. for a free interactive book

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good to see you. happy thanksgiving. >> listen really quick. your special message to everybody here, you're weight lifting carrying all the turkeys. >> this is a good workout. working my pectoral muscles and biceps. look at these joyful faces. making a lot of people happy, people that normally during the year struggle.

as you know, not everyone has everything. that's what america is all about. >> i have to ask you how would you say happy thanksgiving in austrian? >> we don't have a thanksgiving day. >> and there's no such language as austrian. 43 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." richard haass and harold ford junior along with pat buchanan. joining the table, national political writer for "new york magazine" john heilemann back with us. >> this is going to be a big mistake. >> it's going to be thanksgiving. so much gloom and doom about -- >> not at this table. >> about what people think about congress, the track of this country, the direction. but you woet a piece in politico. you just felt the need and you talk about. >> is this on your sabbatical trip? >> yeah.

i was helping the kids. >> you talk about what exactly is good about this country. and it's kind of a long list. let's take a look. >> this isn't what's good about america. these are the realities of america. these are the facts. we are easily the world's most powerful economy, two to one advantage over everybody, the world's center in technology and innovation n. the top ten schools ton planet that focus on i.t. and engineeringtion, we're at the top. we've got number one, two, three, five. cambridge sneaks in at number four. put the list back up. home to 150 of the world's top 400 companies. the u.s. dollars is still the king. over 50% of the world's currency, more than double its closest competitor. we're the largest investor across the globe. when you hear people saying, oh, the japanese are buying pebble beach, trump is buying golf courses across the world. we are investing over the world

two to one ray shotio. we're hope to 20% of the world's manufacturing, home to 12 of the top 15 universities in the world. when it comes to military dominance, we don't have a two-to-one lead, we have like a 15-to-one lead over everybody. we obviously have challenges, but structurally, especially if you look at where we're going this century and the fact that the top i.t. universities on the planet, here, the top engineering universities on the planet here. we've got all the built-in advantages to really explode. >> we have them. this is essentially a snapshot. the moving picture is two things. one is, not bad, just a fact, lots of others are beginning to catch up. that's the natural way of things, can't stop that, particularly out in asia. secondly which is worrisome is

something we talk about on the show a lot, whether our politics have now become an obstacle to exactly these advantages. suddenly we can't keep attracting the people we want. immigration is not what it should be. our schools k-12 are a national scandal. we have long-term unemployment. the challenge facing the united states is how to create a context in this country where all these comparative advantages can come to the forefront. >> pat buchanan, i know you'll disagree with me on a lot of these things. the fact is, if washington gets its act together, we have a huge built-in advantage going tint 21st century. >> we came in with people saying this is the second american century. joe, you have to ask yourself which side is history on? the chinese have been growing by 10% to 12% for the last two years. >> pat, let me stop you. let's start with china. these same thing that people are saying about china today, the

same things they were saying about japan in 1988, 1989. remember the japan that can say no? and everybody was saying, it's a big national security issue because we can't even make the computer chips for our nuclear missiles. we could be hemmed hostage to japan. two or three years later intel goes, we think we can do it a lot better than the japanese. i'm not saying china is not going to grow. look where they've come from. we've controlled the world economy since 1880, pat. i think we're going to be okay. >> you know, quite frankly, i think in real and relative terms we're in decline. china has ten times the population and ten times the area of japan. it is now swiftly moved past japan to be number two in the world. militarily it's grown. there's no doubt, joe, we are number one. the key question you always ask is whose side is history on? as you look at some of those indicators, i don't think they look very good for the united

states. richard mentioned a number of them. >> i've got to say, john hooil man, if you came to me and said you can choose one of two countries. you can choose one awakened out of a 5,000-year sleep and has a couple of billion people, that is growing, but basically has a long, long way to go, and they're competing against a country that has over 260 nobel prizes while the chinese can't win one. i think we're in pretty good shape as a country. again, i.t. is going to grow us in this century. engineering is going to grow us in this century. we have a decade advantage over our closest competitors in these areas. >> i keep wondering why pat buchanan hates america so much. putting that aside. >> pat is worried about america. >> a great place to be is between you and richard. we're in a good place. it's not -- if you had to start

this game. >> we are in a great place. >> if you had to start this game, where you would want to start relative to the rest of the world, this is a great place to start. the problem is on the number of really key trajectories, we're in significant trouble. we have to address those problems. if we address them, we're in a good place to start. >> questions of technology and innovation and in a networked economy, we're in a good position. we have to make sure we don't fall farther behind. >> in alabama is up 35-0 half-time and third quarter it's 35-14 it's auburn's ball. you can say we're in great shape. but the momentum is not with us. the biggest concern i have and you wrote a great piece, the debt, you've talked about this a great deal, whether or not we take smart steps. if we don't, markets will impose this punishment on us. two, education and energy. if we don't make the investments, five years from now when joey is in congress, he will not be able to make the strong and definitive and

assertive comments he made here. i hope he is. i knew i could get you. if we stay on this path, he won't be able to make the same comments. >> you got him. we'll be in good shape. structurally we're in good shape. coming up, trump and noonan. [ male announcer ] opportunity

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how we can safely freeze out the co2 from natural gas. it looks like snow. it's one way that we're helping provide energy with fewer emissions. >> ( creatreature inhalihaling ) >> (>> ( branches hes breaking ) > ( horse hse hoofs beatieat) >> ( horseorse nickeringring ) >> ( trainrain whistle ble blow) > ( engine ine revving )g )er of progresgr take adv advantage of of exced valueslu of aud audi event.t. i was on the air last night when the news came down about the decision of bristol palin.

it was kind of my cronkite moment. >> bristol palin last night made the finale, the final three of "dancing with the stars" against all the odds. before we show you what happened, did she win or not win, here is the way she felt win or lose ahead of the decision. >> it's up to the voters now. >> going out there and winning this would be a big middle finger to all the people that hate my mom and hate me. >> so what happened? the finalist, bristol palin, jennifer grey from dirty dancing and some other guy. here it is. >> we will now reveal that the couple in third place is bristol and mark.

>> what are you going to take away from this competition, best memory? >> i have so many good memories from my competition. this has been such a life changing experience and i've had the time of my life. >> the thing that's going to last with me, all the other nonsense as aside, shear is a young woman who got in her truck drove five days to los angeles and lasted until the finale. >> third place for bristol, joe. >> willie, we unfortunately remembered a sad day a few days ago, 47th anniversary on the 22nd of the passing of jfk and people will remember where they were. now you have a black mark on the 22nd of november, and now eve got -- now you have to put a black mark on the 23rd because this is the day that -- >> an injustice was done.

jennifer grey won. >> can i ask you a question? will we ever smile again? >> the death of irony. we can't laugh anymore. >> you're supposed to say no. go ahead. >> jennifer grey won. >> give me something else, something better. new jersey governor chris christie on jamie fallon. >> that's good. >> asked about sarah palin and the man can't help but be honest. >> i love this guy. >> so president. >> out? >> vice president? >> out. >> can you see me as vice president. >> you and sarah palin. >> do you think sarah palin could do it? >> be vice president? >> be president. >> well, you know, who knows, jimmy? it's an amazing world. >> crazier things have happened? >> i don't know. but it's an amazing world. >> governor pitaki yesterday to me gave an answer that felt a

little thin, forced perhaps. >> who did? >> i just didn't believe it. >> governor pitaki was sitting right there. we made him defend sarah palin. >> he openly defended her. >> he did pretty well. >> it seems to me there are those out there in the republican party who are afraid of her or something and they just don't say what they really think. >> i think you're right. coming up next -- >> you're not sitting next to one. >> peggy noonan and donald trump, mr. trump joins us as well.

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when you say muslims killed us -- >> is that not a fact? >> that implies when you make it a blanket statement like that, that mohammed alley. >> do you really think i think mohammed alley were involved? >> i'm not worried about what you think. >> really? you think people think mohammed ali was involved? >> if they remember he was a muslim. you're a really great showman. you're a great guy to talk to. but sometimes i think you give yourself less credit which is shocking i know. >> if the north koreans and the south koreans could work it out. >> jim bell who runs "the today show" wrote me an e-mail.

it's a morning show in our family and says welcome back. i thought it would be nice. >> you're getting so many of those. >> it's garbage what they did to you, power to the people. no, he doesn't say that. he throws down the gauntlet. okay. jim bell basically takes issue with me saying just keep my family safe and you can do what you want. >> where do you draw the line? are you going have cameras down people's pants. >> we'll go to north korea in a second. i started saying whatever it takes to keep us safe. i know this isn't fair. harold feels like me. we like being groped anyway. we're not really -- >> no, that's not -- >> in all seriousness -- >> a war erupted. peggy starts going after poor harold. heilemann rips into me. so this actually is -- i'm saying this was a made-up

debate. this is a real debate. >> i think it's absolutely real. oddly enough i think the war over the pat-down tsa procedures is a little bit like the august 2009 town hall uprisings. this is how -- august 2009 town hall uprisings happened on youtube. nobody knew what was happening until citizens started taking videos of town hall meetings and putting it on youtube, you could see we've got a revolt going on in america. that is exactly what happened with the pat-downs only in the past three, four weeks. when the pat-down procedures change -- >> what's wrong with the tsa -- >> at some place you have to draw a line of human dignity. >> where? >> when you have tsa workers, government workers groping around in your private areas, hup ill eighting ladies, scaring poor little children, embarrassing grownup men then

you're doing something wrong. >> they're not doing that for a thrill. they're looking for bombs. the underwear bomber wasn't called the underwear bomber. hold on a second. the underwear bomber wasn't called the underwaerp bomber because he had good looking boxers on. he was called the underwear bomber because that's where he was trying to hide the bomb. if we say don't worry, women are not going to be checked from the shoulder to the midrift, where are they going to put the bombs? >> you've got to use common sense. >> put aside the fact that the x-ray machines essentially strip searching you. all the civil libertarian concerns. i've not yet heard, apart from people at tsa, a single security expert who thinks this is going to solve the problem. it's fighting the last war. you've got -- the x-ray scanners do not, for instance, as peggy was bringing up during the break, they don't scan for any

bomb that someone puts in themselves as opposed to on themselves. you're a terrorist who looks at this, it's the same problem. here is what the machine scan is for. here is what the pat-downs succeed in doing. i will do something else. the guy who ran for 20 years security at the airport looked at the x-ray scanning machines in this regime and said total waste of time. i could blow up an airplane anywhere in the world right now under this system. if it was the case that we were making civil liberties concessions for perfect security, many people here would say, o karks fine, feel me up. not a problem. if this thing is going to cause people to have the kind of problems that beg gi is describing, and it's not going to make us safer, what's the argument? >> it seems more like again security theater. it's a way of harassing people in order to get across the point that we really want to find something. >> the protocol of tsa should be addressed to ensure that we

understand what we're going after and there's some consistency and dignity can be intact. but the reality is, we live in a dangerous world. unless we're willing to provide probabilities at airports, what the israelis do, they profile. >> harold, harold. >> the protocol should be changed, but tsa workers are only human, meaning imperfect. often they'll do their job badly. it doesn't matter what your protocols are. >> we have to move on. if a bomb had gone off on christmas day, we wouldn't be having this conversation. >> i know someone who doesn't have to get the pat-downs because he flies around in a private jet. >> he probably does because he's a man of the people. >> not really. he likes his private jets. joining us on the phone to talk about this as well as north and south korea, donald trump. good morning. >> good morning.

>> how are you? >> security first. always security first. >> do you want to weigh in. >> very quick and knows who has luggage. very fast, very severe punishment for terrorists and quick trials. >> what do you think of these pat-down procedures that some call grobing? >> well, i don't think groping. it's pretty primitive in a world of the kind of technology that we have, but, you know, i think

you have to use every method possible in terms of safety. that's just one small aspect of it. these terrorists are -- to put it very mildly, they are getting away with murder. when they catch them, they bring them in and they have, what, trials in new york city instead of a military trial? the trial can last forever. one of my very good friend lawyers will represent them and they'll end up being national heroes. it's absolutely disgraceful what's happening. i say quick and very, very, very severe punishment, but quick trials. >> pat buchanan, it's fascinating we still haven't gotten to north korea and we need to, but it's fascinating that jim bell sent an e-mail, a debate erupted around this table. actually peggy noonan and john heilemann on the side of -- >> got confused. >> kind of confusing. where harold and i are saying do what you have to do. is this an issue with resonance,

pat? >> it certainly is. it's been exploding the whole last week. the whole country has been talking about it. the first lady talked about it. the president of the united states. let me say -- let me ask donald a question. these fellows ought to be tried, prosecuted and quite possibly hanged if some of them are guilty of blowing up airliners. a lot of guys doing that, they're willing to go down with the plane, so was the fellow with the bomb in his underwear. he was going to take the plane down with him. >> it's true, pat. nevertheless, you have to do what you have to do. the whole thing with death penalty, this really gets to be a whole new subject. death penalty, now they give the death penalty where they give a slight injection so they don't have pain when the needle goes in to slowly put them to sleep. these people have to be treated very, very severely. and they're not treated severely. the terrorists -- it's one thing when the terrorists say this or

that. let's play with the death penalty. let's see what happens. but in the meantime they never get -- there's never real punishment because the court system takes so long that they're all old people by the time it all happens. we need severe punishment. >> atop the news today, north korea behaving badly. why do the chinese allow north koreans, why do they allow them to be such bad actors? >> probably because they enjoy watching north korea taunt us. it gets to a whole new subject. china has virtually total control over north korea. north korea acts badly. but we have another subject. why are we protecting south korea. have you seen what's happened recently with the trade pact with south korea? i have a lot of dealings with south korea. in fact, i have a partnership that worked out very well with south korea. but i look at what's going on

with the trade pacts where they ask us to sign something that only a moran would sign. then they embarrass the country by not agreeing the a trade pact. they sell their televisions -- again we're going to use the profit. huge, absolutely unbelievable imbalanced profits on the united states. they make us look foolish with this trade pact recently as you know, because you were talking about it two days ago, then they get bombed. we rush to their defense. we'll spend hundreds of billions defending another country. at some point do we get smart? at some point do we say, hey, look, you're not treating us right, you better get shaped up or we're not coming to your defense or, hey, look, number one, you signed a trade pact that we want, not that you want. and maybe, more importantly, if you want us to defend you, you're going to pay us for it. >> pat buchanan?

>> listen, that's exactly right. the united states of america is the on country in history that paytion and ass and asks other taking us to the cleaners. why are we defending europe that's richer than we are and is cutting back on its defense? with korea the same thing. they let 6% of the cars come into their country -- imports are 6% of their market. and they want complete access to our market. united states hasn't been running as a great power. >> pat buchanan has been saying that for some time, donald. i've noticed in recent years you sounding a bit more like an economic nationalist. have you changed from being a free trader to being a fair trader? >> i think the word fair trade is a much better word than free trade. i listen to people saying that's going to hurt free trade.

what's free trade when a country has imbalances of hundreds of billions of dollars on you? i don't want to trade with that country to be honest. i don't want trade. gri with pat 100%. the world is not respecting us here. i thought yesterday when i got a call from mika about the show, i thought to the olympics when obama went over, he talked to the people about the olympics, and i immediately thought, as did everyone else, therefore we have it, because obviously for the president of the united states to make this long journey to get the olympics -- think of it. i assumed there was a wink. in other words, come on over, make your pitch, you've got it. now, we go over, we make our pitch. the president of the united states, unprecedented, makes the pitch, comes back in a very busy schedule. comes back. everyone assumes that's that. and it goes to brazil. this couldn't have happened 20 years ago. this is impossible. the world does not respect us,

joe. they don't respect us. and the reason they don't is because we're being led right down the tubes. >> all right. donald trump, thank you for calling in on that note. what are you doing for thanksgiving. >> going to the fabulous mara lago club in palm beach, owned and operated by donald trump. >> we didn't think you were going anywhere else. >> do you still have the big flag? >> i still have it. actually they wanted me to take the flag down. i refused and i won. the judge was very nice. >> you're coming to washington, right? he's going to have a golf course in washington? >> i already have one, a great one. trump national right in loudoun county on the potomac river, three miles, magnificent. we're going to hold a show, one of your shows will be held right under the show.

>> i have been meaning to tell you about this. >> when donald went there, the environmentalists came up and hugged him like they did in scotland. by the way, we want to do a show from scotland. i saw the golf channel special. >> can we do that? >> i was flying on jetblue. donald found the most extraordinary property in scotland. >> when we come back from the royal wedding, we could stop there. >> we'll do that. >> donald, plans for thanksgiving? >> i already heard, mira lago. thank you very much. happy thanksgiving. so pat buchanan has been talking about economic nationalism and fair trade instead of unfettered free trade for some time. donald trump talking to him, he sounds like an economic nationalist. more and more people, peggy, that i go out and talk to say, why do we have these -- i know it helps the guys on wall

street. why do we have these one-sided deals that don't help us in young stou youngstown, ohio. >> one is, one is republican foreign policy, but the other is what is free trade, what is fair trade? what do we want? it's going to be a bit of a wrestling match between folks on the ground, the populist thing and the party's elites. they love the abstraction of free trade. they can't have enough free trade. all the other people who bear on their backs the implications of free trade have doubts now. i think the republicans will be fighting it out. those doubts are not brand new, they've been going on for ten years at least. >> coming up, what steps is the administration willing to take if the crisis. an exclusive first look at the

new cover of "time" magazine. first, let's go to bill karins with the holiday weekend forecast. bill? >> so far, so good. faa is reporting any delays at the major hubs at the country. that should change later today. with the high volumes, we'll see windy conditions in the northeast. that will lead to minor delays. look at the forecast though. clear as could be. not going to see rain or snow causing any issues in the mid atlantic or new england. very cold conditions. talking january-type conditions in the middle of the country, especially in northern plains. that's where we'll see snow in the dakotas and heavy rain developing now in st. louis to chicago. a sneak peek at your thanksgiving day tomorrow. ohio valley with rain. new york city macy's parade, rain doesn't come in until after the parade is done. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. so, during sign then drive i can get a cc

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quite frankly, i'm exhausted. i'm exhausted of defending you, the administration, the mantle of change i voted for. >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> she was laid off from her job yesterday. >> non-profit dealing with veterans issues. >> peggy, let's follow up. >> she's in fact a veteran herself. >> donald trump said something, said it in a much tougher way than most people will say on this show, but basically says the president is not respected across the globe, america is not respected across the globe. we've been hearing it from world leaders across the globe now. is it a real problem? >> yes, i think so. >> with what is the president

doing wrong? >> you sense with this president -- this is delicate and i may say it all wrong. but you sense with this president that he's doing his best to act the part of the leader of the number one nation when he no longer thinks it's the number one nation and no one is dealing with at a g-20 or whatever thinks that. look, it's an extraordinary time of transition. i think part of what -- sometimes i look back at the leaders of the world and i think they miss an american president who asserted almost in the way he walked into the room the strength and vitality and enduring nature -- >> did bill clinton do that? bill clinton was loved across the globe, right? >> well, loved. but maybe what we're talking about is the old mafia movie question would you rather be as a leader loved or feared? the answer is in the mob was

always, oh, feared. >> harold, how is the president doing globally? >> i wish he'd given a stronger speech overseas in seoul when we were questioned by european leaders and asian leaders about our steps to invigorate our economy. i wishl he reminded the world of our strength, taken some points from your piece, politico and even haass's piece about the changes we need to make and what he expects in the world. let me be clear on trade. i think we have a rules-based trade in this country t. majority of profits made across the world for u.s. companies come from overseas. we have to figure out how to penetrate more markets. >> let me ask you quickly, the president is getting lectured by the french and the british and the germans and now the chinese about spending too much money. are we not respected across the globe anymore. >> there are certainly countries who look at america's position

of economic and fiscal long-term stability. peggy's comment about fear versus like, i still think there are people who prefer a barack obama style leadership to george w. bush. we have forgotten how much disrepute that american style of leadership was in at the time george w. bush left office. >> they think they can take much more advantage of barack obama than george bush or dick chain any. >> or they can work with this country in a more constructive way. >> is it working to our advantage right now. we're being embarrassed on the global stage? >> there are people who are digging at america like you had such presumption, you bleed us. you dell us how to order ourselves and our societies. now you're in economic trouble. how do you like it? >> i think that's right. >> he's getting paid -- they see

him as slightly weak and there's ba payback going on. >> not just for those years. payback for being mayor yeah. >> let's go to the white house right now and savannah guthrie. what message does the white house want to get out regarding south korea? >> i think that the u.s. stands shoulder to shoulder with south korea. the atmosphere is one of trying to deescalate. that seems to be the signals coming through loud and clear from the u.s. government and the south korean yeah government. they don't want to get into brinks manship. they say they were preplanned, but it will take place this weekend, a significant show of strength. so i think it's too convey a

unified front while at the same time trying not to exacerbate this already tense situation. >> savannah, let's go to domestic politics. 81% of americans think it's very important to extend at least some portions of the bush tax cuts. how is the white house responding on this domestic issue? >> reporter: this is so interesting. this big meeting with republicans that everyone has been waiting for will take place next week. what's still unclear at least to me and based on the reporting i've done is what the white house -- what position it's going to take on the tax cuts, what is the compromise position? is it to extend them temporarily for one or two years? is it to instead have the limit be not $250,000 for the tax cut to go into effect but maybe $500,000 or $1 million. i think there's significant disagreement to this day at the white house, among democrats in congress over what position to take. it feels like they're almost kind of waiting to see what the republicans will do when they

have this meeting at the white house h. is going to be a key issue that we'll be talking about all next week. frankly, at least based on my reporting and also hearing what the president said yesterday when he was in indiana. he briefly mentioned it. it was kind of a half hearted repeat of his basic position which was to extend the tax cuts for the wealthiest would cost $700 bill i don't know and how to pay for it. he didn't feel the fire as if he were trying to push that position hard. at the same time, you don't get the feeling about what this compromise is going to be. so i think we're going to have a very interesting week next week. >> savannah, thank you. you can catch savannah guthrie on "the daily rundown" at 9:00 east earn time right here on msnbc. up next, finally some football worth watching on thanksgiving day. the nfl's rhett new york rich eisen has a preview of the games. don't for get to sign up for the morning minutes newsletter. go to joe.msnbc.com.

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this is huge news today, north and south korea exchanged artillery fire over border dispute. hillary clinton is calling it a significant geopolitical issue. bill clinton is calling it hot action. a live shot of penn station in new york city where busy frenzied travelers are getting ready for the thanksgiving day holiday. >> i love new york city. that's the worst train station on the face of the earth. >> did you read "the times" article yesterday? >> no. >> they had an article about how it is miserable. this person romanized penn station. >> they had a big beautiful

train station like union station in d.c. and they tore it down to build that. >> i watch "mad men." i know these stories. >> now we'll get it back. >> it's a door. they put a door at the post office and that's supposed to make us feel better. we still have to walk underneath a dungeon. >> don't you just need a nice safe place to get a cinnabon. >> a little thanksgiving day football. the anchor, the anchor for the nfl network. >> thank you. >> did i boot peggy noonan from the set? did i really do that? i was hoping to talk some ball with peggy noonan. >> peggy is a big football fan. >> the redskins? >> i'm making this up.

>> a little concerned about donovan mcnabb. they gave him too much money. we finally have a game. >> that does haven't detroit in it. >> thee thanksgiving day, new england playing new orleans, the jets. is there any reason we couldn't get the good teams to play each other. >> sn. >> that's the issue. you decide these issues in april and back in april that saints-cowboys game could not have looked any huger. and now -- actually all those games have inverse record games. you've got 8-2 versus 2-8 and first and third. but please watch. please watch. you never know. >> as willie always says, you never know what's going to happen. >> i think the last great thanksgiving game i saw was leon lett who lost the game -- >> it snowed like crazy in dallas.

that was the game where miami was all set to win the game with a field goal. it was blocked. ball spinning around, you don't touch it. he touched it and then the dolphins slid into the end zone. >> good player. not the sharpest knife in the drawer. two of the teams we saw in that graphic, jets and patriots could be playing for the afc title. >> i know. the issue is they're going to play each other on monday night in a couple weeks. the winner of that game could get a week off and the play-offs being the top seed. the loser could be the wildcard team starting week one of the play-offs on the road. >> which team is better today? >> you're really throwing me a sharp -- that's what the show is all about. >> way to slow it down by saying absolutely meaningless things. >> the answer could get me into trouble. i'm physically appearing in the jets new meadowlands on

thursday. i will physically be there. i'm not going to be flip ag coin or suiting up. the nfl network has the game, bengals and jets. i'll be there. >> richard, are you even awake? >> why do you ask that? >> you seem a little punchy. i'm curious. >> i live in los angeles. the patriots are playing better football right now. >> are they? >> yes, they are. the jets are pulling wins out of their you know what with ten seconds to go. can i say that here on "morning joe"? >> you just said it. >> out of their hats. >> let's put it a different way, tom brady or mark sanchez, more dreamy? you can answer that question. >> i'm jealous of tom's hair right there. >> look at that. he seriously looks like brad pitt and alexander.

it's embarrassing. cut your hair. >> he can get away with it. >> my wife finds him dreamy. she does. even she shes the hair is a little much. >> what about sanchez? does your wife think he's hot? >> i've never broached that subject before. >> he was on the show the other day. >> sanchez was here? >> pat buchanan, who is dreamier, sanchez or -- >> i want to hear the prediction, what about mcnabb and shanahan short term and long term. redskins are 5-5. what's your estimation? >> i love it. i'm being asked a football question by pat buchanan. let me give you a straight answer right here. with mcnabb and shanahan, they now are attached at the hip with a five-year contract that people look at the details and they can walk away scot-free at the end of this year. people are still not believing that this is a marriage that's

going to last which being from los angeles, i'm used to seeing. but in terms of this year they're still flat out in the mix. nobody really expected them to win -- >> michael vick, let's talk about michael vick. >> he could be the mvp. >> could he take the eagles to the super bowl? >> absolutely. no question about it. >> he looks better now than he has since his first couple years in atlanta. >> no doubt about it. >> he's better than ever before and seems to have his life in the right direction. >> who is the biggest disappointment this year? >> biggest disappointment would be the cowboys. no question. 3-7. favre being 3-7, also. both those teams firing their coaches. >> when do they bench favre? >> when do they bench favre? they don't. there's no way they bench him. no way they're going to do that.

he's favre. >> he's a gun slinger, a river boat gambler. >> come on. >> there will be rioting in the streets. >> does billy joel mean we're going to break? >> yes. >> can you come back? >> any time. >> i like it. i'm enjoying myself. >> i like him. >> any time i'm in new york, i would love to come on. also check out richard's podcast on itunes or nfl.com. >> i say this about a lot of podcasts, but your podcast changed my life. >> this time he means it. up next, revealing the cover of "time" magazine with rick stengel. plugs the star of tlc's hit show "cake boss." >> look at those. >> he's on deck in the green room. [ j. weissman ] it was 1975.

my professor at berkeley asked me if i wanted to change the world. i said "sure." "well, let's grow some algae." and that's what started it. exxonmobil and synthetic genomics have built a new facility to identify the most productive strains of algae. algae are amazing little critters. they secrete oil, which we could turn into biofuels. they also absorb co2. we're hoping to supplement the fuels that we use in our vehicles, and to do this at a large enough scale to someday help meet the world's energy demands.

welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at central park. the sun is up over new york city. beautiful day. joining us now "time" magazine's managing editor rick stengel here to reveal the latest issue of "time" magazine. rick, what is it? >> you're looking back at the decade again? >> yes, the special issue looking at the first decade of the 21st century, a series we call "time frames" what happened 2000 to 2010. we sent back our correspondents and writers who had covered the biggest stories of the decade to those -- back to those places where they had been, our bagdad correspondent to bagdad, a fellow who covered the 200 election back to florida to count some ballots and joe klein wrote a piece about how he had

been wrong about social security. a look back in order to look ahead. what is the first decade of the 21st tell us? >> what's your takeaway? >> the big idea is we thought so many things went wrong in the first decade of the 21st century that were natural disasters. they were man-made disasters, katrina, mistakes we made. it's always been true. human fallibility is at the core of so many mistakes we made, whether economy, the iraq, afghanistan. we're to blame. at the same time, there's good news, too. more people were brought out of poverty during the first decade of the 21st century. hundreds of millions of people brought out of poverty in china and injury, something we forget. >> what a tumultuous recount, recount in 2000, enron in 2002. you can go through it all.

2005, katrina. it was a brutal ten years. >> and we go back. part of what we try to do is to put the news in context, bring understanding to it. we look at those stories. there are no hard clear outcomes. the 2000 election story, they went back and counted the ballots in palm beach county and places that goer wanted to. do you know what the result was? they couldn't tell. it was unclear. it was unclear the intention of the voters. we like to think that there is some divine truth that explains all of these things. but, in fact, it's often a mess and you can't figure it out. >> peggy, you look at the right-track, wrong-track direction and things look bleak right now. congress's approval is low, the president's approval, not so great. but it has been a devastating decade for institutions. >> yes, it has. i'm not sure if there is any major american institution that

has come out of the first decade of this century with its position enhanced. journalism has not. government has not. the church has not. did you guys take a look at that? >> we did. >> wall street. >> nancy gibbs who was the editor of this issue wrote an essay about that very idea, that all the institutions that we once have faith in have gone down several notches over the past decade. i actually think there's virtue to that. we used to trust the government when they told us to put our heads under our desk and avert nuclear armageddon. that's when trust in government was very high. now people are skeptical about it, which is probably a good thing. >> it's interesting, mika, that the military is the one institution that actually is revered even more today than it was in 2000. >> i think we face other quandaries with our military now. >> it's always been admired, the military. but people in the first decade of the century decided to be

more vocally supportive than they have in tft pa, more enthusiastically supportive. >> one of the lessons of vietnam was that we were tarring the military with the same brush that people were criticizing the war effort. people realized particularly with iraq, the soldiers are heroic and protecting us and doing incredible work. that has to be differentiated from whether you ideologically support a war or not. >> i think the american people on the ground supported those in vietnam. i don't think the media always did. i don't think you can say we. >> mika? >> mayor blikal bloomberg did an exclusive essay for this edition of "time." he writes this, this is on ground zero and how far it's come. the engineers and hard hats at the world trade center site recognize they're working on more than just a construction job. they are helping our country fulfill a sacred obligation to those we lost honoring their memory and our nation's

principal and valleys with every steel beam that swings into place. >> he also addresses the idea that here it is, ten years later, and it's mostly still a hole in the ground. we thought that things that would seem relatively uncomplicated. let's build a building back where one was destroyed, has taken an incredible amount of labor and involves an incredible amount of complication. that's the theme of the whole decade. >> can you believe that, harold, a decade later they still haven't built the buildings. >> we haven't found bin laden. there are a lot of things american will look back and say how do we improve on. in your next issue, maybe you look at what do you draw from this? >> rick stengel, thank you so much. another great edition of "time" magazine. coming up, shook i can isnooki so are we. >> tlc's "cake boss." >> we've got "cake boss" and my dad straight ahead on "morning

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the power to help you succeed. i also want like me in it. on the cake. have you heard of my pouf? you know my pouf, right? i wear this big pouf on my head.

it's like my trademark, so i would like to have that and maybe some fist pumping arms coming out. >> that was the "cake boss," buddy valastro consulting with snooki. stories and recipes from mia famila. talk about the book while we're eating. >> i'm really proud of the book. it's kind of what i call an unexpected book. you see "cake boss" and think it's going to be a cake book or picture book. it's really a story of the american dream. me telling my father's story of how he accomplished the american dream. it's how i became the cake boss. when i was 17, my dad passed away and i had to drop out of

high school and run the family business with the family and you know, it's the work ethic. it's the determination that was instilled to me in a boy that made me the man that i am today and it's just great. i want people to read the book and be inspired and relate to it. >> buddy, how does that happen? a lot of people may not know your back story. how does the guy running the family bakery in jersey become a celebrity with his own tv show? how did this all happen to you? >> to be honest with you, i don't feel like a celebrity. >> well, you are. how did it happen? >> tlc saw me do do i think different things. i was in bridal magazines, then got on the show, food network challenge there, tlc saw me, said we're thinking about doing a cake show. i do cakes that are giant and

they move and walk and talk. >> how long's your family had this business? >> it's been in my family since 1963, but has been around since 1910. >> what am i eating? >> a chocolate peacan pie. >> oh, my god. i'm going in. once in a while. >> good old fashioned cakes or pies. all we make are giant cakes the size of a nascar. >> what's peggy eating? >> that's a pumpkin pie. peggy, get in there. don't worry about it. >> so, where was your dad from? >> sicily. he came when he was an immigrant when he was 13 years old. both my grandfathers were born in new york city. the families made little money

then went back to italy. my parents were american citizens able to come over easily. my mom told me when she was a l little girl, she really thought the streets were waved in gold. for them, it was. in these tough economic times, i feel that my story is one that people will inspire from because honestly, i'm living the american dream and i believe if you work hard and are an entrepreneur and focus and put everything you've got, you can still make it in this country. >> you're living the american dream? >> you're eating my pie. >> what's your family and your buddies from jersey think seeing you on book tours, tv shows and all the rest? >> i can't believe it, but the book has been "new york times" best seller number four two weeks in a row, so i'm pretty psyched about that. my teachers told me i would

never accomplish anything. in hoboken, new jersey. >> you're open today? >> today, tomorrow. >> what are you moving right now? what are people buying? >> pies. thanksgiving the pies. pumpkin, apple, coconut, you name it. >> congratulations. you're a great guy, a great american story. continued success and thanks for coming with the pies. >> where are you having thanksgiving? >> my sister's house. italian stuffed turkey with sausage. >> you guys have a lot of fights? >> a little bit. listen, it's a big, italian family. forg forget about it. >> forget about it it! >> and then they run out of the house, screaming. >> "cake boss" airs on tlc. congratulations.

this is great. the book is "cake boss," available in bookstores now. up next, more family fighting. dr. brzezinski joins us with his recipes for the holidays, up next.

is an attack on south korea an attack on the u.s.? >> south korea is our ally.

it has been since is korean war and we affirm our commitment to defend south korea. >> will we send warships or would you put u.s. troops on alert? >> i'm not going to speculate on military actions at this point. i want to president with president lee. >> welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at the sun just up over washington, d.c. john heilemann and peggy noonen are still with us. >> is that a j-mack jacket? >> idiot. who are you wearing moment. >> the that's the host of the mclaughlin group? >> lot of news to get to this morning at the top of the hour and joining us from washington, former national security adviser, dr. brzezinski.

dad, good to have you on the show. >> good morning, mika. >> i want to talk to him now. >> hi, joe. >> how's thanksgiving going to be? when you have mark on one side and ian on the other, he wants to stay in afghanistan for a while. does mika officiate the battles? i have a feeling you're like the professor what just pushes. >> the fighting takes place outside after dinner. >> sessions. they have sessions at thanksgiving dinner. now, mika tells a story about how in the middle of the iraq war, ian -- >> i don't know if they want you to share that. >> i don't care. mark, who worked for the clinton national security team and mika said it was a wonderful thanksgiving session. a heated and lively debate. >> we are america in a

microscope, in microcasm. we have the right wing, the left wing, the waivering center. >> are you being called the waivering center? >> i think i'm the arby tor and waivering center. >> that sounds fascinating. what better than talking about "dancing with the stars." >> we'll do that, too. >> imagine that. >> i will film some on a flip. put it on youtube. a lot going on this morning. south korea says it's found the bodies of two civilians on the island bringing the death toll to four. the news comes as president obama pledges to hold joint military exercises with south korea this week. the president met with top advisers at the white house yesterday. the administration released a statement saying --

nbc news has also learned new details about the incident. for more than an hour, the two sides exchanged fire with the north setting off about 80 artillery shells. the south actually fired more. about 90 of them. south korea claims they inflicted heavy casualties on the north, but that's impossible to verify. and according to to a report by north korea's state news agency and his country was on the brink of war just as it was, leader spent the day touring a soy sauce factory. >> and it just moves from the wires a statement out of china. >> says it opposes any action that damages the peace and stability and is urging north

and south korea to quote exercise calm and restraint. >> dr. brzezinski, you wrote a column this morning, america in china's first big test. what is that and what do they need to do to get through this? >> the test is there an outbreak of violence, a real conflict. it could push china and the united states in opposite directions while undermining stability in the far east, so the stakes are potentially high. but i think we ought to not lose sight of the fact that is a skirmish. not an attack. the north koreans are playing with fire. some weeks ago, they sunk a south korean ship and killed sailors. they shot a south korean island. if the international community

doesn't register serious concern and consider possible steps, who knows what this north koreans might do next. >> could i ask, dr. brzezinski, what does north korea want? why is it doing this? it's beating it's chest about its nuclear capableties now. it's coming forward, obviously, it's trying to put itself forward as a big power. maybe it's trying to enhance the position of its new 25-year-old leader, but bottom line, what does it want? >> my guess it doesn't know. and that's part of the problem. i think there are different elements in that regime and they have perhaps differing aspirations. they do want recognition. but they also want respect for their nuclear weapons and in effect, some form of acceptance for them. they want a deal with the united states, but they also want the united states to cut out south korea. from the deal.

there by dely jit mating south korea. so, there are conflicting interests involved and it's part of the political instability within that regime which is undergoing a rather difficult adjustment, shifting of power from one generation to the other. >> doctor, does america have an exaggerated sense or has america exaggerated this idea that north korea is headed, that it is crazy and headed by crazy men? is that true? is that exaggerated? is there an element of truth in that? >> well, insanity, politically, is hard to define. was stahlen insane? he killed in one year, 1937, 770,000 soviet citizens. was hitler insane? holocaust.

insanity or pure evil? i think however we're dealing with a regime that's very isolated, self-isolated. that's obviously paranoid. that's unstable and it's a communist regime that's unique historically among communist regimes in that communist regimes always managed to retain power in the hands of the communist party leadership supported by secret police. with the army serving it, but not dominating. in north korea, we have increasingly evidence that the army is becoming the most important institution. and that's, too, of course means that there is a particular perspective affecting their foreign policy posture because the military have a special perspective and certainly, the north koreans do. >> you write in the financial times that this is the first big test of the relationship with china and the united states.

perhaps a pivotal moment, so what's the best possible out come for the united states and for china and the worst possible outcome? >> the worst possible outcome would be a shift from private discourse between us and the chinese regarding this issue in the course of which i disagree, to public politics mutual akizations and then rise in public attitudes, rise in hostility in public attitudes on both sides. i think that could push us into an adversarial direction. we should be able to avoid that. we do not wish this. i have reason to believe the chinese do not, but we have a rather different view of the problem. the chinese basically are interested in not rocking the boat and therefore, they're willing to tolerate a fair amount of north korean provocation. we have to be concerned about

stability and security in south korea, we have to stand by them. we have to think about the impact of all of this on japan. so, we take a dimmer view of all of this. so we have to work very seriously in managing this relationship and i think we have to have a direct relationship with the chinese and this. i think the president should call president hu and talk to him in a serious discussion. we should also talk to japanese leaders. they are involved and we have to treat them as an ally. we have to show leadership initiative from the top that we're dealing with this problem. >> john heilemann. >> dr. brzezinski, you just answered the question i was about to ask, which is what you would advise the president to do. i'm going to shift that question slightly. in your dealings with the administration, your sense of the administration, do you feel as though they have a good grasp p on this problem? >> i think in general, they do. but there is a bit of a problem

in that i think there is still a disconnect between the president's in my view, sound ideas regarding america in the 21st century in general and he has articulated these views many places and many times. i do think he has a good grasp and the actual strategic translation of these views into policy. there is the disconnect. somehow, there isn't the degree of self-assertion and clear direction on a number of issues. the one we're talking about perhaps, very much so, the israel-palestinian conflict to some extent, the iranian issue. so, i think there is still some problem in the way general ideas are translated into meaningful policy and that then contributes to some uncertainty internationally about the decisiveness of american

leadership. >> peggy. >> doctor, what do we know about the view of china itself? the view of the leaders of china? how they think about north korea? i think one senses sometimes they may be a little bit anxious? they may be a little bit michael corleone. that's an awkward way to put it, but look, how do the chinese view north korea? >> i have talked to some senior chinese officials, touched on this issue with one particular leader that's very knowledgeable on it. my sense is that their attitude is that we're stuck with them. they're slightly crazy, rather dichlt, but they're right next door to us and the last thing we want next door is a major explosion and a major explosion

that spreads to all of korea, japan and precipitates some form of american reactions, so they're main interest is in not rocking the boat. this is why they say to us when the north koreans sunk the ship, well, we need more evidence. this is why they're probably saying now, well, both sides ought to exercise strant. that's good and well, the problem however is that suppose they do something third. we've had two incidents. this is something they have to think about and something we have to talk to them in a serious, cooperative fashion. pointing out this is a joint problem. neither one of us wants this issue to escalate. neither one of us wants our relations to deterioratdeteriore have to deal with this problem.

let's think of ways in which we could try to deal with it. >> all right. dr. brzezinski, thank you so much for being with us. >> see you tomorrow. >> all the best to you. >> all right. >> i like forward to our session. >> we want it. >> it will be very loving. i'm in trouble. >> absolutely on that, bring that in, get it on here. we spend all three hours. >> so we've been talking about the president's leadership and how he handles this crisis. john, what's your take? you followed him as closely as anyone in the 2008 campaign. he promised a new type of leadership, globally, where we would be respected. has he lived up to that? >> i think dr. brzezinski's comment is right on point in a lot of ways, with respect specifically to this issue and more broadly, which is that we were talking earlier about what the world thinks of obama. he was greeted with a lot of hope in the sense there would be a greater collaboration and he would act in a more multilateral

way. i think at the level of high rhetoric and ideals, there are a lot of people who look at what the president says and thinks that it sounds really good. at the same time, i think there's been a lack of clarity, a lack of focus and resolution on specific policy areas. how that vision has been translated into hard facts and into hard policy that creates a sense both of confusion on the part of a lot of our allies and others and a certain sense of weakness. >> what's the president's greatest achievement in foreign policy in his first two years? >> i think it would have been the s.t.a.r.t. treaty had it been passed this last year. it's the thing he has been most focused upon, the thing he has cared about most since his graduate days, he spent an enormous amount of time focused on that issue to the frustration

of some in the white house. rahm emanuel says there were times in the first year where he wanted the president to be focused on other things and the president was head down, focused on that s.t.a.r.t. treaty. if it gets passed, he would say that's his greatest accomplishment and there are a fair number of people who would agree with that. it may not happen now with republicans who don't want to make that vote happen. >> that would have been huge in 1983, but if you talk to most foreign policy experts on january 20th, 2009, would say that's in the top three? >> i think there's a lot of people still worrieieied about e nukes and if there's a way to reduce them -- they're a fair amount of people who still think that's a pretty big -- i'm not trying to say there haven't been shortcomings. you asked the biggest.

>> peggy, has he succeeded internationally the way he told americans he would? has he put a new face on american leadership after eight rough years with bush? >> i think history, one of the things history will say as it looks back is that obama added a certain murkyness to america's foreign affairs position. before him, everything had been very black and white, dramatic. you're with us or against us. obama brought a certain cloudy murkyness with him and it sort of lowered the temperature it seems in various places. my biggest regret for him in terms of foreign affairs, i think he felt hemmed in from being really bearing and there were immediate, quick, daring things he could have done that would have set people back. for instance, we have a nation

called cuba, it's 90 miles off our shore. he could have done a lot of open up cuba at a time when castro's dying, everything's right for change. you could flood that place with american tourists looking for a cheap three days. there was a lot of stuff you could have done. you would have been in a 1958 ol oldsmobile. >> thanksgiving 2010. a great postcard. >> for 15 reasons. >> all right. fascinating discussion. up next, a political play book. also, new job numbers. later, the leaders, achievers and rebels that make gq's men of the year. first, bill karins with your holiday forecast. >> good morning, everyone. we have one airport reporting delays and that's atlanta.

some fog and drizzle in the area. the airports in the big cities are looking good including the ones in the northeast. we may have minor delays today. forecast looks great. sunny, temperatures near 50. we have a lot of heavy rain in st. louis. that could add up. also, this rain is heading for indiana shortly and chicago later today. for the forecast for your busy travel day, there is the heavy rain from missouri to indiana. west coast, you look pretty good over the next few days. seattle tomorrow, a little rain and snow. the east coast, parade in new york city, looks like we'll get it in before the rain arrives. hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices?

sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. i graduated from west point, then i did a tour of duty in iraq. when i was transitioning from active duty, i went to a military officer hiring conference. it was kind of like speed dating. there were 12 companies that i was pre-matched with, but walmart turned out to be the best for me. sam walton was in the military, and he understood the importance of developing your people. it's an honor to be in a position of leadership at walmart. i'm captain tracey lloyd, and i work at walmart. ♪

>> ( creatreature inhalihaling ) >> (>> ( branches hes breaking ) > ( horse hse hoofs beatieat) >> ( horseorse nickeringring ) >> ( trainrain whistle ble blow) > ( engine ine revving )g )er of progresgr take adv advantage of of exced valueslu of aud audi event.t.

we just recently started talking to each other over twitter because i made a joke about new jersey. >> awful joke. awful, evil joke. >> it was about, well, here it is. chris christie has canceled the train tunnel between new york and new jersey. new yorkers want to get to new jersey as always, by accident. it's a funny joke. everybody's laughing. any way, thank you for coming. but thank you, look, i'm sorry.

i apologize. i love new jersey. >> you think it's funny, jimmy? you know what we do to people like that in jersey? >> oh, my god. >> just keeps getting -- >> all right, live pictures. the news that "morning joe" is coming to london has hit the streets of london. do you not have the shot anymore? seriously, what's wrong with you. we have a shot of the control room? yeah. this is the guy that said go to the video. >> i have politico. >> good. >> just not the same thing. >> willie. >> let's go to jim vandehei. look at the playbook. how you doing, man? >> good, how you doing? >> doing all right. you guys have an interesting piece on the site. social circles into washington, kind of laying into first lady for keeping too much to herself.

>> it's a familiar story written about in the bush family. they felt they didn't interact enough in washington, weren't a big enough part of things that happened in this city. they keep to themselves, their set of friends, largely those from chicago and that always leads to frustration in washington. this is a big source of tension between the bushs and a lot of people in washington. the same is happening to obama. thinking back to camelot and the kennedy years and more recently, back to the clintons, who are more engrained into the city. >> the clintons, the bushs and reagan. the reagans were of washington, peggy, very much. >> nancy reagan did a great favor to ronald reagan by dec e deciding she wanted him to know everyone in washington, the

georgetown establishment. carter sort of didn't have anything to do with them. nancy wanted them in the white house. she wanted everybody to know everybody and she wanted the president to know his journalistic critics. that's a really important part of the presidency. outreach to the local community. you've got to be serious about it. >> jim, that's something the first lady may not do, the president doesn't do it. white house's let official washington know for the first two years, they don't really think that much of them. >> and it does hurt i think on the margins and there's so many parts of the political process that have a cold relationship with the obama white house or no relationship at all with the obama white house. this includes a lot of democrats, not just republicans. >> politics is all, it is all personal. it really is. you can talk ideology with somebody, but if you like them,

you can sit down and always hammer out a deal. politics is personal, personal, personal and they have -- it's just the reality. you look at the statement. not only from the obamas but their top aides, just heap contempt on washington. >> oh, this the way you washington people, you're so small minded. oh, you washington people. you hear that for two years and you're like, okay, why are we going to cut you any slack? >> it's true. there is still time for them to fix it. just to think the clinton example, you forget the first two years of the clinton administration people said they didn't do nearly enough to court washington. when he was rebuked in 1994, part of his rehabilitation, that's when they started to make

outreach to the city. and maybe the obama people will learn that lesson as the clintons did. >> this president got elected, creating his own machine. he created his own pr machine. it was a remarkable achievement. he didn't have to go through washington establishment. he didn't have to go through the party establishment. he was his own man and they thought when they went to the white house, they would continue that operation. it just doesn't work that way. didn't work with jimmy carter and hasn't worked for this president. >> before we go to a break, let's take a look at what's happening in london. we have the shot. this is students protesting over tuition increases. they also just heard the news that "morning joe" is going to be in london covering the royal wedding. jim vandehei, thank you. new job numbers due out.

we'll have the latest from erin burnett live at the new york stock exchange. so, during sign then drive i can get a cc for just my signature? that's right, right now you can take home a volkswagen for just your signature, like the cc or the tiguan. huh. yeah, plus every vw includes scheduled carefree maintenance. really? that's great. there you go. that guy's pretty good too. yeah, he's ok. [ male announcer ] it's amazing what you can do with a pen. sign then drive is back. for a limited time get any 2011 volkswagen for practically just your signature.

let's get the check on business before the bell with erin burnett. she is live at the new york stock exchange. we have breaking economic data.

>> a lot of it. we have a whole bunch of things. weekly jobless claims better than expected. we saw a drop in people filing for benefits. we're at 407,000. no miracle. i'll tell you when there is. there will be great fanfare and party hats down here. income and spending, what people are earning and spending. this is interesting. people earned a little more than the market thought and they spent a little less, which means maybe they saved a little more. it can be a good thing, also a bad thing because you want people to spend to keep the economy going. durable goods purchases, that's the bad news of the day. more than 3% drop. 3.3% drop in orders for durable goods, things that last three years or more.

although maybe computers don't last that long anymore, but they're still in there. the biggest drop in two years. >> let's talk about yesterday. news came out, the feds talking and the flattened economy for the next five or six years. >> this is the tough one. yes, it could be. they are saying the economy could go back to growing at 4%. that is a great number for an economy the size of the united states. those kinds of economies do not grow of china-like rates of 8 plus percent a year. the fed isn't willing to accept that. they want to bring unemployment down. problem is, when you're coming off a massive final crisis fueled by debt, it's unclear, no matter what you do, if it will be enough to make it go away quickly. this may be a long, painful process. paying down debt is painful. the government wants to make it

not painful. ben bernanke is making the case for he's going to do whatever it takes. before i go, i thought you'd like this in terms of spending. one person spending a lot of money, king abdullah of saudi arabia, this was the highlight of the day. he's getting a herniated disc surgery in the u.s. he flew in with three jumbo jets with h , a convoy just to go to the hospital. >> that might be a little excessive. do you think he's subject to the pat-down process. >> apparently, they shut down a whole wing of john f. kennedy airport. >> thank you so much. have a great thanksgiving. >> are you going to see the king? >> yes, i'm going to be with the king. >> all right. going to be with the king in maryland.

>> say hi to dad. >> all right, guys, have a happy thanksgiving. his photographs have appeared on hundreds of magazine covers. he shares his new, personal collection, next.

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joining us now, a man whose lens has captured almost every a-list celebrity. contributing photographer for gq and "vanity fair," mark seliger. his new book showcases his private collection of never before seen photos including nudes, still lives, landscapes and portraits and he joins us

now. great to have you on the show. >> willie is also looking at some of your extraordinary music shots that we aren't going to be able to help. let's talk about this book. >> it's not really a rejection i think of digital, but it's really like a rebirth back to a tactile, traditional way of photography, kind of marrying the idea of shooting film and taking general, photographic things and reintroducing them to you know, you know, the great quality of books. so -- >> and you have some extraordinary pictures of people, places and things. talk about what editorially, what decisions you made going into this. >> i really allowed myself the freedom to explore without it being so premeditated, so be

able to find a perfect day and go out and let the photograph represent itself rather than trying to make a picture. so that's really where it came from. for instance, like the gentleman you saw that was pierced, i was at a jane's addiction concert and i was walking in and i saw this gentleman come through the audience and as he was passing through, the sea divided and i just thought he was like a remarkable looking face and so i asked to photograph. >> tell us about this face. >> that's my father. my father passed away seven years ago and he was probably one of my best suggests. i spent a lot of time photographing him and like all parents, we get to know the contours of their body and their faces and their touch. i just really wanted to have that experience with my dad and i'm always thankful that happened. >> do you have a favorite

picture in here? >> i'm very fond of my father, but the first picture is a spot in lower manhattan right near my studio and one day, i was having an emotional day. it was new year's day. i found this beautiful pilings of old piers. it's the first landscape i telt was an emotional experience for me. new york is one of the great places where everything is antiquated and beautiful and then vanishes. >> let's show the shot again. why did this picture touch you the way it did? >> it was the day. a very contemplative day and just seeing this kind of romantic experience on the water, it was a warm, foggy day. it just kind of all connected to my emotions and the visual aspect of being a photographer.

>> and willie, you're looking through some shots. >> i love the way you span the generations of music. >> 20 years of music it. kind of started out with l.l. cool jay and ended up with p. diddy in times square. >> right now, we're looking at john lee hooker. >> amazing, amazing subject. the first thing he said to me, feel my hands. just like velvet. lovely. that was one of the pictures that i took at the end of the day. it wasn't in this book. it was another book, but as you love music and we all love music, it's definty for that in being tibl work with musicians has been just a gift. >> you told us a story about the shot. he actually directed you on your shot. you stayed there all day, you took pictures of him and he's basically like, hey, boy, look at my hand. you've missed the story.

>> i went back to my hotel room and i called him and said, i don't know if the film really came out. >> he said you can come back for 20 minutes, but you've got to get that picture of the hands. that's kind of an interesting process for me, too. sometimes, you have the follow the wave of your subjects. >> sometimes they know and sometimes, they absolutely don't. >> some like john lee hooker, years of experience of being photographed and knowing what he likes, you've got to trust that's the right direction. >> so, among all these musicians you've shot, who is the most challenging and the easiest to work with? >> i had an experience with nirvana, which was challenging because i went to melbourne to photograph them for "rolling stone." when i was there photographing them, i suggested that they don't wear t-shirts with writing

on it and kurt cobain showed up with a shirt that said corporate magazine still sucks. rule number one, don't tell anybody what to do. the following picture i did with him, we did a portrait which was almost like a curdish photograph of a native american. it was supposed to be a classical portrait of him, so that was a nice little reconnection. >> what picture are we looking at here? >> that is basically a tug boat graveyard in bayone. i stumbled upon that and used the fog and atmosphere to create what i hoped to be a pretty interesting picture for people to look at. >> mark seliger, thank you. the books are "listen" and "the

music book." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] at&t and blackberry have teamed up to keep your business moving. blackberry torch now just $99.99. only from at&t. rethink possible.

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yesterday on "morning joe," mika, the women that war magazine picked as the biggest headliners. today, it's the guy's turn. the men of the year issue is out

today and among the men featured are mayor michael bloomberg. jeff bridges, icon of the year. jimmy kimmel, funny man of the year. the situation -- and admiral mike mullen, game changer of the year. gq's washington correspondent interviewed admiral mullen for the magazine and is with us now. pretty good list. we're going to talk about mullen in one second. but let's start with mike bloomberg. why is he leader of the year? >> i think it's because, well, i think his position on the mosque is one reason he really rose above politics that he's always positioned himself as doing. he showed leadership this year lacking at the presidential level and maybe there's not a coincidence there. >> and jeff bridges, icon of the year. obviously, one an academy award.

just a great actor. >> a great actor and icon. he's managed to stay relevant during his career and done it with dignity and without losing his sense of humor, too. when gq chooses its men of the year, it looks for a well rounded person. they don't choose the kinds of people that would campaign for men of the year or that would think that important, but jeff bridges fits that profile. >> let's talk about mike mullen. >> his testimony on don't ask don't tell last february. obviously, there's been a lot of movement on civils rights this year from court decisions to individual municipalities making gay marriage equal to i think they call it, what is it regular marriage? nonopposite marriage. he did something that no one else, especially the highest

decorated officer did, which he said that repealing don't ask don't tell is a matter of dignity and honor. that you have it as a policy forces gays and lesbians to i think as he put it, lie every day they come to work. >> you interviewed him. >> yeah. >> what did you learn? >> well, he's a man of remarkable dignity, i would say, although he doesn't take himself that seriously. i really pressed him on what he thought his legacy would be, he kind of demured it, saying he was just a soldier. he said the three issues he really cares about, don't ask don't tell, improving the benefits we have for veterans and the benefits we have for a new kind of veteran, you're involved with this, joe. this is that we have younger veterans coming out and veterans with different kinds of problems than veterans of previous wars and more female veterans than

before. i think the third leg of that is actually trying lead this multifront war and right now, the leading edge is in afghanistan and leading that war as best as possible with the most modern military, which involves another two legs. >> how's he faring in the white house? the woodward book suggested there was pretty sharp elbows around the west wing with him. you get any sense on how he's handling this new administration? >> i think he handles this administration with cautious respect. it's interesting when i talked to him actually about don't ask don't tell and how his thinking changed on this issue, he said that he had been thinking about it for a long time, but it was the night that obama was elected, he realized he was going to have to change the way he thought. he was going to be to be willing to put himself out there in a

way he wouldn't if the other guy had won. he has a lot of thoughtfulness going into this and he's going to be a joint chiefs of staff for the ages. >> all right, thank you so much. we'll see you with your next list. >> have a great thanksgiving. up next, what we learned. ♪ [ man ] i thought our family business would always be boots. until one day, my daughter showed me a designer handbag. and like that, we had a new side to our business. [ male announcer ] when businesses see an opportunity, the hartford is there. protecting their employees and property and helping them prepare for the future. nice boots. nice bag. [ male announcer ] see how the hartford helps businesses at achievewhatsahead.com.

time to talk about what we learned. william? >> i learned from mika's dad that the brzezinskis don't have family meals. they have sessions. >> what have you learned today? >> i learned the similar thing. if the brzezinski family thanksgiving were a sitcom, i would watch that thing. >> it would be a polish-american reality show. i want to know what you learned, especially given your politico column, which is live now, i believe. nice things to say. oh, come on. >> pat buchanan hates america. >> what are you talking about? >> the chinese -- >> check out my column.