. >> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with the writer john grisham he has a new play on broadway and a new book. >> it is base odd an story you knew. >> yes, a couple of stories, involved him, trials i knew about, i heard about through, you know, the local lower, and i pieced together this plot and i said, this will be a very compelling courtroom drama, but if you take the issue of what would a father do if he decided to get his own revenge what would happen? how would a jury react to it? >> rose: right. >> and that was the big. >sue.>> rose: and let him off? >> well, the they didn't have te to kill, i think they could probably do that 30 years ago, i am not sure about today. a tremendous amount of sympathy for dad. >> rose: we conclude this evening with sean foley, he was recently ranked the second best

golf instructor in the world. >> a lot of times it is just about, you know, it is about saying like what i said to justin rose the morning on the sunday of the u.s. open. >> rose: what did you say? >> i just, you know, i got up in the morning and i was staying with hunter that week so hunter and i talked and sent tying ear note and sent rosie a note and just said remember, justin, today is a super important day. so don't -- let's not pretend we are back at lake mono we are at the u.s. open. >> rose: and we could win sovereignty face the fact we are there because it is going to take a lot of energy for you to pretend you are somewhere you are not, to so accept it and say to roger federer i think pressure is a privilege. >> rose: john grisham and sean foley next. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following. >>

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> well the big issue with publishing is five-year, how many people are going to be reading books on a kindle as opposed, you know, a book.

and if that number is 50 percent, the ramifications are huge for the entire i have. >> rose: john grisham is here, he publishes novel time to kill in 1989, and told the story of a small-time lawyer, jake, and a racially charged murder trial in clant on the, mississippi, the book had initial print run of 5,000 copies, some of which grisham sold from the trunk of his car. >> times have changed 22 books later he sold more than a quarter of a billion copies of his work worldwide. his newest novel "sycamore row", returns to clanton i am pleased to have john grisham back at this table. you being the master marketeer you are, we end up with sycamore coming a at the same time as a time to kill. >> makes us look real smart the doesn't it. there is no way you could plan this. >> rose: why not? >> dumb luck. first i didn't know if time to kill was going to open this

fall, if they opened it last fall, that was the plan and things didn't go that well so they pushed it off to this fall. it is, i treat it kind of like a movie, i believe it when i see it, i am not involved in it, i am not involved in movies or tv. >> rose: yes, you do. you have the right to choose the character, the actor that is involved. >> she is the director -- >> rose: but you are not involved. >> i can veto those people. >> rose: and you have. yes you have. >> a couple of times. once we have the people in place, though -- you can ask anybody i have dealt with in film, once the team is in place, you know, they have a screen play, i don't go hang out on the set and i don't -- >> rose: you don't have notes or anything. >> it is too boring. >> you are not doing notes or anything. >> no. and are you heather holmes contacted us about four years ago. >> rose: the director. >> yeah, he is a playwright. >> rose: playwright. >> and he said i would like to adapt a time to kill to stage so there is no way in the world because two-thirds of the book takes place outside of the courtroom and big scenes everywhere, how can you get it

all on one stage. >> he said let me show you and wrote the play and i read the play about three years ago, and i really liked its, i really like it, i worked, the drama is there in the courtroom and the dra a is on the stage and gets the essence of the for i are and i said is really good i would like to see this play. he say -- >> and two years ago it had a brief run at the arena theatre in washington, and same director, ethan mcsween any, dale roth produces, and rupert is there writing every day, a couple of the actors were there, including the star, jake, so i had about a six-month run, we saw it twice, with thoroughly entertained by it and it was a successful run and darrell roth said we are going to take -- >> rose: a great broadway producer. >> one of the best, and, you know, with a lot of clout and she said this is going to broadway. i said okay, i will be there. just tell me when to show up, sent me a pickup. >> >> rose: and you showed up. >> last night was the pickup. >> rose: what did you think. >> thoroughly entertaining, very

well done, great performances, you know, i care about it being faithful to the book, and it is very faithful to the story. it is just well done, very moving at times, you know, you get choked up occasionally, you get scared occasionally. it is a courtroom drama. >> rose:, you know, a couple of things about history, as i mentioned in the introduction, it was not a huge best seller time to kill when it first came out. >> they printed 5,000. >> rose: 5,000. >> hardback copies and no more. >> rose: and then after the next one, and then the firm, everybody wants to see if there is anything else in the closet. >> the firm was 18 months after time to kill, and became a best killer and rekindled interest in time to kill we still couldn't get books printed but pelican brief came out and finally the time to kill began selling, and in -- and in the first wave of movies came in 1994, i remember looking at the new york times best seller list and the movies of the firm, pelican brief and

client has just been released in the previous twelve months, and they were all big movies, and so all those books were back in paperback. the novel in 1994 was the chamber, in hard book back, it was number one, time to kill was number one in paper so we had like four or five books in the top of the list, i think this is pretty crazy stuff, but time to kill was outselling all of them eventually, finally. >> rose: why is that? >> is it the root of all of them this is it sort of the -- i mean it clearly was the first. is it -- you know what people say, i mean, you discovered magic in a bottle there, you know, at the beginning, but, you know, what you have is man against the system. >> sure. >> rose: the loner. >> it is the story. >> rose: small town lawyer. >> very dramatic story. a father whose little girl get raped and takes matter into his own hands. >> rose: tell me, describe jake for me. >> rose: who is jake? >> well, when i started writing jake 30 years ago, he was very

autobiographical. >> rose: he was you? >> well, pretty much so, yeah, because he and i live -- >> rose: you in what way? >> well i am a small town lawyer in mississippi, struggling to find more clients and plenty of competitors. >> rose: a little bit of politics. >> a little bit of politics, a beautiful young wife, having babies and dreams and all of this kind of stuff and wondering if the law was going to be our ticket to where we wanted to go. >> rose: in mississippi. >> that, politics, but just the daily grind of trying to eke out a living in a small town street lawyer. it is tough. not just in the south, all over america, there is competition, as i said the competition is pretty fierce. >> rose: what was he like? what did he think? what made him mad? you know, -- >> >> rose: loyal to his wife. >> oh, yeah, oh, yeah, in a very honest, upstanding guy who might funnel a little bit on the rules because the other guys are fudging but not much. ethical, honest, a big dreamer, wants something bigger, he wants to be a trial lawyer, wanting a

big trial, a big high profile, big dream -- >> rose: you are talking about a big case where everybody is watching. >> and he got it. he got it. that's what i wanted to do. never got that far. >> rose: you wanted -- >> also about halfway through that career, i got the bug to write, and so i was still about 30 years old when i got this bug to write what became a time to kill. >> rose: but a time to kill was based on some story you knew. >> oh, yeah a couple of stories i heard about. it involved trials i knew about, i heard about through, you know, the local lower. and i pieced together this plot and i said this will be a very compelling courtroom drama, but if you take issue of what would a father do if he got -- if he decided to get his own revenge what would happen? and how would a jury react to it an that was the big issue. >> rose: and they let him off? >> well, they didn't in the time to kill, i a i am not sure -- i think they could probably do that 30 years ago. i am not sure about today. tremendous amount of sympathy for the dad, and. >> rose: and done you bad and you ought to have some form of

revenge. >> somebody raped your little girl it will drive you crazy, yeah. >> rose: all right. so there is a time to kill which is now, was made into a movie and now been made into a play so it has been a novel, a movie and now a play. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and the damned interesting play we say, watching the premiere, you watched it i haven't seen it yet. "sycamore row", which is -- >> "sycamore row", which is a place where what happens? >> well three years after a time to kill. >> rose: jake is back on the case. >> jake has another big trial, and it is back in clanton, 1988 .. four cellphones, bent it is hard to write that now, there is no google so we go back to the dark ages of 1988 and jake has another big trial and -- >> rose: jake has not been fabulous since he -- time to kill. >> jake is still struggling, he worries he had his pinnacle and big moment. he wants the next big case. and the klan burns his wife down

so he and his wife are living in a cramped rent house because rental house because they are suing the insurance company, he is still a good guy and dreaming and all of that but things didn't turn out the way he thought they might after the hayley trial he got paid nine hundred bucks for hayley and lost his house, almost lost his -- he gave his closing argument in a time to kill in the bar suit because he was, borrowed suit because he is out of everything and here he is three-year later, still struggling and still trying to catch up to where he was. >> rose: right. >> and suddenly he has a real big case. >> rose: and this is a very interesting story because you have got this guy who had a bunch of money. >> yeah. >> rose: he is found hung. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and we think maybe the caretaker? kind of -- >> well, the opening chapter is a guy commits suicide and dying of cancer and in tremendous pain, 71 years old. >> rose: hangs himself. >> he hangs himself, and that happened on a sunday morning

when jake gets to the office on monday in the mail, he receives a letter from this guy who just killed himself, never met him. >> rose: right. >> and the guy says i want you to represent my estate, i have a lot of money and nobody knows about it and here is my last will and testament, all handwritten. i cut out my family. >> rose: exactly. >> i don't want my kids to get anything and i am leaving everything to my black housekeeper jake doesn't know these people and they are from another art of the county and the guy it turns out was incredibly secret about his money, dealings, assets and all of that and so jake suddenly has this mystery and in has a very big case and in mississippi, as in many states will contest or play out before juries. and so here we go. we go down this -- >> rose: the housekeeper versus the family. >> yeah. so off we go in a trial with all of the scheming and co conniving and back stabbing and throat cutting. >> rose: are you happy i want

goes to trial you have written a lot of other things but are you happiest in is that when you are getting up in the morning and you are going to write about a trial? >> not really. >> no? >> charlie, most trials are pretty dull. >> rose: really? >> and if you do it accurately you see a lot of stuff on television in movies, it is not that accurate and they get by with it and they have to do it to jazz it up but when you write about a trial, civil or criminal, most of them they take enormous amounts of time and you can't just sit there as a writer page after page after page of dull testimony, whatever so you have got to kind of -- you have to keep the pages turning and writing about trials, it is pretty challenging. i don't really like to do that. >> rose: not very many perry mason moments? >> you can't create them and in real life,, no it doesn't happen that way. and you just can't write a lot of litigation. it is not a whole lot of fun. some of -- before you get to trial, some of the maneuvering by the lawyer and all of that kind of stuff can be very compelling and fun to read, but the actual courtroom stuff, jury

deliberations is just not that interesting, and tough to make it interesting. >> rose: back to the time to kill i want to take a look at this. did you have anything to do with the casting of sebastian and tom and all of these people? nothing? >> nothing. no, once i read rupert holmes play i said this works, i would love to see this play go. okay? we signed a contract at some point and i don't even know what is in the contract and they took off with it, rupert did all the work and -- writing and here we are. >> rose: okay. so this is a play where karl lee hayley played by john daly asked his attorney jake, played by sebastian a sell lsu what he would have done if it had been his daughter who was raped and almost killed. take a look at this. >> if this were your daughter, what would you do?

>> i don't know, i don't know what i would do. kill him? >> i am sure i would want to. >> you are from california. >> you just told me you would do it. >> black men don't get to kill black boys. >> hey, hey, hey, this is a white county. with a little luck i will get a all white jury. most jury would give me a prize. >> and it is different from me? >> it would be much harder to win in a courtroom. >> you could get me off? >> listen, maybe not. and i would be home playing my hand while while you are signing -- who is going to watch out for your daughter then? >> i just got one question, will you meet me jail, at the jail when they arrest me? >> there is also this. politics in washington. last time you were here you were a little bit disappointed by washington, you must be really disappointed by now. >> you know, i watched the circus in washington and i keep thinking, there has got to be a good novel here somewhere, a

really good political novel that i would love to write, but i haven't found the story yet. there is so much -- there are so many bad guys and idiots, you, it is almost lake you are picking on them because they are so helpless. >> rose: you don't need to do this, to write a good political story. >> one thing that bugs me not, about washington is just not the gridlock into between the two parties and both of them are guilty, it is the rise of the lobbying class and this huge amount of money that is being paid to lobbyists to manipulate the government. you know, you have to really wonder and ask, is this a democracy anymore? this is like a pseudo democracy, because .. half of the people are not even registered, those who are registered only half of those go vote and the one who do vote, how many are led astray by, you know, slick campaigns and all of that and once they elect these people to congress,

you know, they immediately consume with the lobbyist whose have the big checkbooks and wonder are we really getting a representative government? and those are the things i think about and how could you have some fun with that in a novel? i don't know. i am still working on it. >> great to have you. >> always fun. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> and what you are also trying to feel at this point is you have to ensure at this point that you are still pushing into the ground, because we want to create that couple of forces inbetween the feet that are going to end up being allowing us to create more power in the through swing, from that into position, i am just combining the take away with the body tilting and the held not moving. >> rose: sean foley is here, he is widely regarded as one of the best golf instructors if not the best in the game. his clients include four of the top 25 players in the world, lee westwood, justin rose and tiger woods. >> rose won the uh u.s. open in june. >> his he was on the cover of i

am pleased to have sean foley at this table for the first time, welcome. >> i am plead to be here, thanks, charlie. >> rose: when did you know you wanted to be a golf instructor or a coach as you call it. >> at a young age i looked at what my dad was doing and what my neighbors were doing, and i look at these guys who went to a golf course every day, everyone loved them and respected them and basically just sat on a driving range and helped people, so at a young age some of the canadian greats i got to be a part of and i owe it all to my father, jack mclaughlin from british columbia who was just in the canadian hall of fame and ben kern who but sponsored on the pga tour by lee trevino and a disciple and best friends with george newt on the, so you look to my mentor, when i was 13 or 14, butch harmon and david ledbetter were there and i was thinking that is what i want to do and i think when i say that to my dad, he perceived i was

thinking of greg norman, but it wasn't the case. so i mean, all of the teacher da -- >> rose: you liked the life they had, david ledbetter. >> my whole life is the search for the perfect shot. putting and chipping, i don't find it sexy, i recognize its place in the game and its importance but a lot of the current statistics that are coming out of, i work with a professor of columbia named dr. -- >> rose: in is a great story. he is doing the numbers. >> yes. he is doing the numbers, he just wrote a book i wrote the foreword for that every shot counts and he shows without a doubt, i mean, without a doubt the old adage of drive for show, putt for dough is not true and if you look at, you know, if you look at the top ten ball-strikers in the world they kind of average about 14 method the world ranking, okay, if you look at the top ten putters in the word they average about 62, the big difference, especially with the courses getting bigger

and bigger one of the main elements is being able to hit it far, not so much accurate, but far and second rough is not the way it used to be, it is not as long but secondary to that is from 175 to 250 yards is really the difference between the weak and the strong. so if someone that much better of a putter at a world class level as the guy number one number 100 that could be a stroke, or a half a stroke, but if you look attiring woods or rose or mcelroy or any of those players, how they hit it very the guy who is 100th in the ball-striking stat is quite a bit different because remember putting is not about power and not being able to create trajectories to the moon to have long irons land soft and if you look at the dominating players of all-time, jack, nick clause, tiger woods, for a few year

johnny miller they were all able to get the most out of their long irons and hit the ball the highest. >> rose: so they could hit the ball the highest so drop on the green from 180 to 215 yards? >> and, you know, with some of my players to get them to hit it furnish further i have this radar device i use a track van and actually looking at their landing angles because pretty much for every degree in landing angle that i start losing, so 40 think, 39, to 38, 38 to 37 i am getting one or two more yards in roll so if i can get a way -- the way i look at golf, charlie and i am not original, this but pretty up in taught to me by so many people but i couldn't take five hours and say thank you, is i was flat surface of varying loft hitting around object and that is the gist of it so people say, well, who is someone you like that you don't coach? i love to watch jim hit balls because he is as precise as a surgeon and sure aesthetically the style is iffy, the style but the dynamics have led him to be

fourth on the all-time money list. so, you know, if you watch from hip high to him high, hip high, it comes in almost as high as snead, nicholas, you will never see anyone who is good through what maps. >tters. >> rose: hip high, down swing here to here? >> yes. so there really is no method when someone says that is a perfect back swing i mean for who? no one's torso is the same length, no one's shoulders rotate the same amount and we are all unique and have our own physiological thumb point so trying to match the geometry to the unique quality that the person brings, so one of the still litigate arguments that is made is why don't you go back to the swing tiger had in 2,000? well, tiger is 37. >> rose: and physically -- >> he has been through 40 surgeries who is the same physically at 37 as at 23? so we are having to evolve and adapt darwinian in that way to keep moving forward and keep moving forward. >> rose: but this is the game

in which you have spent most of your life. >> absolutely. >> rose: and, therefore, if you will end the, you are in the game you want to do it and understand it better than anybody else alive. >> the best i can. >> rose: the best you can exactly, at least approach that or other buy what is life about if you can't approach it as good as you can. i want to come back to what you learned about the swing but let's take tiger because this is the subject of this article and the subject of so many articles, whether you are involved or not. because tiger has gone through, you know, at least four important coaches, butch harmon, hang haney and now you, hank haney and his father, what did earl do? let's start there. well, i would expect lay, i haven't spoke much about it with tiger but i read the book that was written and i think what he did is he just, you know, people perceive like tiger was the one begging to go to the golf course, it wasn't him getting schooled and your narcotic saying you are going. >> rose: he wasn't trying to make something he was not. >> not at all, but i mean you are looking at a guy wh who wasa

green beret, he was a good athlete and played baseball in college and became quite a good golfer quite quickly so i think, you know, earl probably is like, from what i have heard in people who knew him, he was kind of a mystic in a way that, you know, he created a creative, competitive environment for tiger so it wasn't sitting in front of a mirror making perfect swings, it was okay let's see who can make the most five-foot putts and make the ball back up the most on the green and let's see who can hit the highest hook so he was he is just playing and playing and playing and if you look back to the model of anna ma sorry, intelligence in children so i think that one thing that tiger has always done is he always had, even when he is on the range hitting balls, he always had an intent in the shot, so whereas a lot of people mistake your intention and your attention so people's intention is to make, is to stand a good shot but then their attention is on every piece of their swing.

so if my intention is to change, to better my swing, then my attention can be on mechanics and being in a block mindset where i am verbally cognizant instead of autonomous of where i am hitting shots or watch these guys out of trees, that's when they are the most entry but it is pretty obvious what you have to do. so i think all earl did is just set up this environment for this just unbelievable super learner of an individual to grow the most in. >> rose: he is an analyst of the game? >> he studies the game? >> it is fascinating. i have never been able to stump him on almost any question of who won a major, who won this tournament or who -- or who won, you know, i read a quote by tiger years ago that said golf needs to be courted slowly, and i thought, that is so spirit july, like in reading his interviews from back in the day, it was like susan guy, you know,

he was painting really, but it has been fascinating, it has been a pleasure. he really is a fantastic guy to work with. >> rose: staying with tiger but at the same time you also have a lot of other good players. >> wonderful players. >> rose: i mentioned lee weapons wood, i mentioned justin rose, i mentioned even to the point where it is said look, he came to you and you didn't have time to do anything with him, because you can't take on too many, because the ones you have, who have been there for you, you will do a disservice to. >> arthur may hannahan has been five years that is a long courtship in coaching an individual game and justin has been over four, this is the kind of right now it would be the start of three years with tiger so. so i like luke and he is a class act and he is a great player and i believe that i can help him, but, you know, the issue was that i only have so much time.

i am not trying to spend more time away from my family and if i couldn't do the job that -- i mean i am already at the course 13 hour a day at a tour event so i didn't know where i am going to fit. so i have always created these relationships through a lot of hard work and hard times and good times, but in golf, it is like eight out of ten hard times, two out of ten good times. >> rose: tell me what it is you do for an outstanding golfer. >> obviously, when they come to me, you know, they have always come to me, you know, where they were struggling so i started hunt we are his short game and then it moved into full swing and justin rose had been sixth in the world and fallen to 82nd and tiger was struggling with his game in 2010, so when people go, you know, you are going to change their swing, you can't change -- you studied enough about the brain to know there is not going to be any change of the swing. you are going to insulate your neural circuits and what have you, motor memory, but more than

anything, it is just being able to sit there because what confuses them is where they feel things happening, the time frame is so small, that they almost couldn't come up with a rational understanding of what it is. so a lot of times, it is honestly just sitting there and saying, you know, why are you aiming 30 yards left right now? i am feeling this, why am i feeling that? why are you aiming 30 yards left? i am doing that 15? you are always doing that. or situations like that, so i am trying to -- you know, they cocome with questions and i 32 toy provide answers with them but a lot of the time, it actually just is making sure that i am not harming them because to help them improve, people say, you took justin from 82nd to third in the world well his wife is bart of the team and his caddy is part of the time and short game instructor is part of the time and sports psychologist is part of the time so it is a cab rative effort, collaborative effort but he had been sixth in the world so all i

am .. doing is show them things he they can already do they just didn't know they could do it, it is different from taking a ten-year-old girl who loses in the semifinal of the u.s. amateur where you taught her how to grip the club and stand, that iis is developing and athlete but, you know, all the people who came to john wood or come to me or these type of coaches i mean john wood certainly didn't teach kareem abdul how to play basketball but you talk to how his players and learned how to tie the shoelaces right and just look at the process of the process of performance, which is all these little minute steps that are going to lead up to, and in some way, some want to tell me about every shot, others don't want to hear me talk for two hours. so just there, really sometimes it is a sounding board and sometimes we are really getting in there. >> rose: you mentioned phil jackson and john wood. they told you, they taught you what? to know what they did? one, you just mentioned with john wood.

what did phil jackson teach you? >> it is different in golf because i am managing trying to help the manage an individual so i am not trying to manage, you know -- he knows these two players can't be on the court at the same time or not exclusively, zoo it is a little different in team coaching, because he is calling the plays and doing those certain things, but when i hear players talk about those guys, they really just talk about th the ethics ad character of the man and the belief they had in him. so hopefully one day that i will have the same effect. >> rose: yes. he also has, you know, he has a sense of the game. >> sure. >> rose: he understands and it goes won x's and o's. >> of course. >> rose: to explain what winning means and what competition means. >> yes. >> and what excellence means. >> yes. >> rose: and that is what comes so that, you know, it is understanding the difference between, one, being able to may the game and be able to, you know, take your talent to a

higher level. and understand the mental aspect of it. >> yes, of course a lot of the times it is just about, you know, it is about saying like what i said to justin rose, the morning on the sunday of the u.s. open. >> rose: what did you say? >> i just, you know, i got up in the morning and i was staying with hunter that week so hunter and i talked and i sent tying ear note and i sent rose a note and i just said remember, justin, today is a super important day. so don't -- let's not pretend we are back at lake nona, we are at the u.s. open. >> rose: and we could win. >> and face the fact we are there because it is going to take at that lot of energy to pretend you are somewhere you are not so accept it, you know, be on board, and said to roger federer, i think pressure is a privilege and. >> rose: i believe that too. >> when tiger came looking what did he say to you? >> he called me. he got my number from sean o'hare and he called me and i think i told him that i would call him right back because i was putting my son to sleep.

and that is not true. >> rose:. >> he had been sleeping i just needed a minute because i always had been a huge fan of tiger, and will always be, so i aked to like just take a second, i wasn't -- i wasn't like totally out of my mind, but i needed to just kind of gather myself a little bit. because it is a huge honor. and then we just, you know, talked about, you know -- >> rose: but he was aware of what you had done for other players that had attracted him to you? >> he said that, yes. and to be honest with you charlie, you know, tiger this year was, you know, player of the year, won the money list, won the scoring title, won five times, there is probably 15 to 20 golf coaches in the world who could help tiger as well. it is not garb there is plenty of people but for the most part, look, these guys hit every shot, they deal with noise, bad bounces and read every putt and judge the wind on every put

shot, so a coach in golf is not going to be established by his record. i can't run out on to the eighth hole and like phil jackson grab michael jordan and tell him what he needs. i can't tell hunter or justin get your chin-up, you lose a perspective right now in this round, i can't do that. or i can't run out and say, hey, look, everyone has hit an eight iron here and all coming up short. so it is not really coaching like, i can't speak to them. >> rose: so what can you do? >> well, i can help them in practice and then i can help them, you know -- i can help them on the range but the game is played on the court course, in the tournament so it is a unique style, it is friendship and instruction. >> rose: but just to understand, you said you are in search of the perfect swing. >> yes, perfect shot. >> rose: perfect shop but i mean the perfect swing goes from here to here, whatever happens before that might influence it. >> sure. >> rose: couric is different from tiger woods which is different than. >> greg norman -- >> rose: but they all end up with how the club head hits the

ball. >> yes, yes. so we are trying to manage, obviously, the orientation of the face, so where the face is pointed, either right or left, people say open or close but you can say right or left, you know, the club faces is determining, at least three quarters of the ball's initial direction with amid iron, up to 85 percent with a trough', 90 percent with a putter so when the tv analyst says he hooked his putt, the path is not making the ball hook, he just pulled wit a club face. the balls come pretty close off to a 90-degree a angle and we are trying to manage the downward path of the golf club and then the circle -- you know, kind of the circle that the sweet spot is moving on, whether it is going across the ball or out and across the ball, and, you know, the most important thing for me to manage on the track is where it says spin axis, so spin axis is giving me a number and degrees of how much the ball is tilted on the axis

so how much it is curving to the left zero or right. so as technical as all that sounds, all i am trying to do is manage the movement of the sweet spot and the duration of the swing. and that is really all i am trying to do. >> rose: tiger, i will stay with this a minute because i am fascinating by this, fascinated by this too, mac grady, did he speak to you? did you learn from him? >> no, i never had the opportunity to meet mac. >> rose: you know what he has written. >> yes but none of that stuff is published. i have actually seen a little bit of the stuff and mac is fascinating. a lot of the concepts now that are kind of the in thing, you know, mac had recognized long, long, a long time ago. >> rose: what are the concepts that are the in thing? >> well, you know, you watch my guys sometimes and the commentaries say they are coming over the top. >> rose: right. >> but, you know, if the sweet spot is moving down in space on

the circle it is also moving out to the right so the reason it looks like they are swinging left is a if i am hitting down on an object and that is moving down it is also moving that way so i have to shift the plane to the left to make sure the path ask, you know, congruent to the golf ball so the first time i noticed that was in the same canadian open that i saw butch and david at, and those guys were hike, you know, when i saw them, i remember the first time i met ledbetter i almost had a heart attack i was just in awe. >> rose: because he was what you wanted to be? >> yes, and like chuck cook is a good friend to me now, but he was -- he was kind of like my true mentor, i like i really like what he had to say because he was a thinking man and he wasn't just saying put your elbow here and just to put your elbow here. the problem with golf instruction is there is so much opinion in it. and, look, sometimes there is going to be an opinion, so harvey pinnick after teaching golf for 17 years had seriously

great opinions so it is not like it has to be -- we have two things happening now. we have the scientific community of teachers who don't really practice good bedside manners and then we have, you know -- we have the. >> rose: bedside manner? >> look you are trying to get people to change and most people are out where they are at in their life because they come from da freaks anyway so you have to get them to go out to get them better so you have to be able to sell to someone that i know this feels terrible, but if you continue to do this, and if you understand this, you are going to hit some great shots. so most of the time, you know, you have to have a way amount you that allows people to just give themselves to that, so we have these guys who know everything and they call out all the old school guys for not knowing this, this, this. but i mean, ben hogan might not have had the science to measure everything, but there is really

not anyone today who hits the golf ball like like him. so, you know, dave matthew said in a song once and this really hit me, he said progress takes away from what took prefer to find and i thought, wow, that is pretty deep. you know, soable, i would love to be able to use the new stuff and i wish i had the ability to understand what attracted me when i was 13 and kept swinging in to out to stop the ball from going left that would have been helpful. >> rose: what do you think of stack and tilt and plumber and bennett? >> i think andy plumber is arguably to me maybe one of the sharpest minds in golf instruction and you know andy, mike is a friend as well. but i think it is how you go about doing something so i am not going to sit here and tell you that everyone is wrong but us. >> rose: yes. does that mean that you follow what andy plumber and michael bennett teach .. or think about the swing and the structure of a

swing and -- >> yeah, i mean, parts. parts. there is nothing new under the sun and i think they have head d that in the book because all the pictures are from 1940s, 1950's and 1960s, right but they are passionate guys i want to see everyone do well and i also know that our role in them winning charlie is really not that large. and it ignores this them losing but we have to be careful on, you know, coming out and saying that everyone else is wrong and we are the only ones that are right. i believe that some people go against the grain and that is fine, but i would rather just not go with the flow. it is a different mindset. so it is less radical so i am still doing my own thing and learning from them and i am learning from my friends jail lights and young instructors coming up like crisco know and dr. qwang and brought us all about the ball flight.

>> rose: and the guy over at columbia. >> yes. dr. brody, with so much of my lessons were chuck cook, davis love, peter costa, elliott, mclean, i dread every single, ernest jones back in the early 1900s came back from the war with no right leg and was just starting to notice off his left leg, in he was a golf pro before he went to war and lost his left, he only had a left leg so if i lost any of my legs i would rather lose my right leg if i am a right-handed player but i like having both because being able to create force inbetween two points on the ground is where i may differ from keeping the weight on the forward foot but i think that when you look at what, you know, what andy or mackerel -- it is most of it is mac's stuff and andy created some of his stuff on top of it. what is a better way to get a beginning againer, beginner into a game, from going from impact,

having their hands forward, keep their arms extended and keep their weight moving forward? i think that it is probably the best way to teach beginners. is it necessary at a pro level? probably not. is it athletic enough? maybe not. but i have great respect for anyone making a living out of teaching the game of golf and i will support all of them. >> rose: those are principles if you want to be here at impact, if you start there, it is a good place to start. >> i have taught it to a lot of people. i have taught it to a hot of people. >> rose: what is it that you hope to do with tyinger? because he has had four operation os ten left knee; is that correct? >> yes. >> rose: therefore, it has to be a different swing because of that. he can't put the same amount of pressure on his left knee, can he? >> well, i mean, him and his trainer have done like an unbelievable job as really making that leg. >> rose: strong. >> yes h in she very strong buti mean the thing is, what happens

when an athlete gets an injury and there is atrophy, there is always going to be a pain response, either the brain is omnipotent, even if you do it and it doesn't hurt it, it is still omnipotent enough to be, okay, my main job is to protect this human, so, you know, is he -- you know, that's why i say it is silly to go oh in 2000 if you look at his swing, his flexibility, you know, youth, time to practice, tiger is a very devoted father of two kids and he is a single dad, so golf is not the main priority anymore, but the discussion is still that it is. so, you know,, you have to start to work the swing around player. i mean, you know, you look at sam snead at 25 and then you look at him at 50, you know, at 50 it was the first time his swing got short of parallel, it is not because he worked at it because his mobility and

stability have -- >> rose: it was not parallel? >> that is not even a word in golf it is semantic but he has had a very long back swing, it is not a good or bad thing it is just his unique trait, it is time to produce work which time is a variable for work and thus speed. but as he got older and older and older, you know, the swing got shorter and shorter but that wasn't because he sat in a mirror try trying to make it shorter it is because he doesn't move like a young man so you have to evolve with what you have, with the player, and i have done it with all my guys. look when i started working with hunter because of how he used to draw the ball with so much rotation he used to sublux ribs up in the scapular area here, this rib cage up here so he would have to get them put back in, rose was on the verge of herniating two disks. >> stephen aims had bulged disks. >> rose: which is not good. >> well but the thing is, you ask your back doctor what is the

worst thing you can do. >> flex. >> it is golf. >> there you go. >> so that is the way it is going to be. >> but suppose you are -- what is the difference in a coach and a teacher? >> i mean, i feel like i coach world class players and i feel like i teach kids. >> rose: ah. >> right? because what am i teaching tiger woods or justin rose? i mean, sometimes i am charlie rose to them so when you are doing this, what royou thinking about? i am going to give this to the kids or i am just learning. you are charlie rose and asking the kind of questions that i would? >> well, yeah. i mean, i want to know. >> rose: they have to be able to explain what they are thinking, otherwise you can't advise or -- >> plus i just want t to to to t to know what they think because they are geniuses so if guy out for the whole day and i spend time with four of them, i mean, i would be completely, you know, bsing people if i said i am not going the most learning. i mean i get to go out and watch

the westwood play with polter and scott, and tiger with duffner, you as an interested man in the world and people that get to sit in front of you it is such a great job that way, i spent so much time enjoying watching how someone plays a bunker shot in a tournament watch how someone reacts to gallery noise or watching someone -- >> rose:. >> so when you are with these guys you are saying what did that feel like? what were you thinking? why did you do this that way? that's part of what you do to get inside what they do now and to understand what they might do differently? >> yes. it is just -- you know, it is to ask the right question, not sitting there preaching answers at them but ask the right questions so that if i ask the right question they are all very, you know -- i think they are all, you know, golfers are deep individuals to an extent, even if they don't show it on the outside, so there is a lot of time to think and a lot of walks and these guys have been walking all these miles for a long time, so it is just

interesting to see, look, when i am watching them i know what is going to happen before it happens, because, really, as human beings we are just patterns, and we don't really change that much from day to day. maybe our outfit or our clothing but 95 percent of what we do is fairly automated. >> rose: so what do you say to these people what tiger needs to do is get back to the swing when he was with butch hear on? >> he can't. can't do it. >> physically can't do it? phase wise can't do it. >> can't snap his back leg back to rotate, you know, so, you know, as time goes on i mean people can say why doesn't michael jordan hit the hole when he was with the wizards like he was with the bulls? because he can't. i think that, yo, you know, my answer to that is, i start to look at the most rational, logical reason, is it just -- is there a pattern there? or is it just that, you know, there is no way, including nicholas going

through the same thing that tiger did, there is just no way that for 17 years in a row you are going to shoot under par on every single sunday. i just think that if tiger doesn't do it, it is talked about for so long that it feels like he did it over and over and over again, but i just think it is the random, arbitrary nature of golf, i don't think it is anything that he is doing or he is not doing. i just think that at some point,, you know,, is that, you know, you are going to control golf and most of the other time it is going to control you. >> rose: how is he growing as a player? >> i think the game teaches him something every time he plays. i think his, you know -- he looked at it as like this yearning for this learning and people say well, you know, what does that mean? it is not the yearning for the perfect back swing. it is just how he manages a golf course and how he understands, okay, from this angle i have the

greatest chance at this score and it is amazing how he does it and never really shared it with anyone. >> including you? >> including me. i never asked him, you know, i have my own. >> rose: how he manages the golf course? >> just how he manages the golf course is fascinating. i mean you can tell what he is doing if you watch him closely but i think, though, as well, charlie, that he just has to -- he just has to keep showing up he is the greatest that has ever lived, it isn't like there is a magic pill. just stay healthy, keep, keeping on. >> rose: and if he does he will great the record -- >> which isable cool i think that is the coolest thing to he is that at 37, he is only three away from tying snead all-time and snead was quite a bit older at that point. >> rose: right. >> so the major championship record is something newish in golf. i mean, to be at 79 wins at 37 years of age, you know, to at one point this year, you know,

guy said to me, you know, what does tiger need to do to play like he used to? i am saying he just won five of his last eight tournaments. against guys who are very good i said he just has had like luke donald's career in eight weeks and luke donald is really good. >> rose: yes. >> so i just think tiger needs to be tiger and just keep playing. >> rose: luke donald's career in eight weeks, in eight weeks he has done everything and he is one of the great players playing today. >> in his in his generation. >> rose: take justin rose and -- do you think they understand their game? so that they can say to you, i know what i am doing wrong and i know wh i am doing it? i just can't prevent myself? >> right. typically, when it gets like that, it is because they know all the pieces of the puzzle but can't see it themselves. so justin for example we were working the other day and he loved to hit it hard and high, he looks like a ten-year-old kid

out, there he could be in a dead straight and low and but he gets this -- >> rose: i am with justin. >> yes. why not? right? in awe of this thing. >> rose: exactly. >>so he hits the ball and trying to hit it high and his swing looks good at all of the places that it should and for me i have seen him hit so many balls, it is lamb like if he came out, i see it even in normal speed i see he it so clear of something is blurry and looks different than normal. so i just looked -- i looked -- we could have went down different avenues and could have increased loft, we could have increased tilt and done way too bhuch but i just kind of walked up around the side and looked and i alike you won't be able to hit it high enough from that ball position. >> where is it? so i took a picture, it is like oh man i can't believe that. but it is obvious, it is an instinctive, you know, we are mammals so we are these instinct, instinct if the -- we are adaming to the environment, so the wind is blowing at us,

15, 20 miles per hour it is normal for the ball to get further back in the stance, now to hit it high it looks like he is having to ma nip late which he is, what happens when the ball goes back in the stand in the angle of the attack is more severe and the ball has a left loft, the ball has left loft, so if that is loft and that is angle of attack, inbetween the triangle is called spin loft so he might be hitting down more, but the loft is changing too, so the ball is starting out lower and you can see him backing up trying to scoop it. so we play it up and if -- i was on the brink of going into this mags stiff discussion on what it is in his down swing, and then i just kind of -- i try to trust my instincts i know when i am out there and thinking a lot that i am in the wrong place because i typically don't have to think about it that much, as they don't. like when they go play, if they are thinking about everything they are doing they are not free, they are pretty frontal, you know, they are in cognition, they are not in the

subconscious. so i walked up and just like, oh, sean, you idiot, like -- you let him hit 15 balls he is get a little might haved and i like that because he is, miffed miffed because he is not going to accept hitting the ball poorly which is why he is world class and here we are trying to hit the ball high with the ball position that is going to hit the ball low. >> rose: it always has been my understanding of human nature, from all the people i have interviewed over 25 years and the best at every field in the world. >> yes. >> whether a conductor of a great symphony or a great surgeon or whoever it might be, they are the ones who work the hardest. they are the ones who care the most. they are the ones who have the most passion to be, to take what they do to another level. >> >> rose: that is what it is about. >> yes. i think that, you know --, you know, they are the ones who, you know -- a lot of people who don't quite get to that level they anticipate the pain and

sacrifice that is going to come, and they, the anticipation is what keeps them where they are, whereas these other ones dive into the pool no matter how cold it is knowing they can find endless possibilities. >> rose: it is the reason so many people who walk -- who climb a mountain. >> yes. >> rose: and they get to the top, because they had to climb the damned mountain. >> and it was just painful almost the whole time. >> and when they get down the mountain if you knew what it was going to take it a and would you have done it? no, never i wouldn't do that. >> yes. >> rose: i imagine, if i imagined it was going to be that cold and that hard, you know -- painful? i wouldn't have done it in a thousand years. >> yes. i think a lot of people don't ever give themselves a chance to see how amazing they are. >> rose: exactly right. and some of that has to do, i think with, i mean, clearly, you are born with -- you come at age 2 or 1 or 6 months with certain kinds of developing skills, right? you see that? >> sure. >> rose: you see different golfers and you know because of their physicality, because of

the structure of their body and their mind, they are better than the other guy, they have a better chance of making it, it doesn't mean they will but they have a better chance, right. >> you can see it like my son is five and playing socker. >> rose: right. >> and there are five kids who are really struggling, the rest of them are all the same, and then there are four kids where you are just like they are unbelievable at it. >> rose: that's right. >> so i think that, you know, that all those kids out on that field, if they are lucky enough to stay clear enough in their life so they will be able to hear their wisdom pushing them in a direction they are all special at something, you know, it is just whether or not we find that. >> rose: this is your guide to the best teachers, sean foley is ranked number 2 on that, harmon has been on that list for a long, long time. and hahn as a young man is number 2 on that list. and how the hell how do you know how to measure the best teachers? >> that is a good question only. >> i think they just sent out to the pga of america and then the

other one in there is for -- so that thousands of people put down that, and, look, there are friendships in there and people who teach the same stuff, so, you know, is it an honor? of course. if i was voted number 40, would it make me feel like less of am instructor? absolutely not. my main interest is the guys who i need to text me back text me back. i can't depend on the expectations of everyone and have the confidence of everyone to do it, but, you know, it is just -- i used to read golf digest as a kid and when that thing came i would be up in my room. >> rose: me too. >> and reading davis love and john elliott and a all the grea, paul runyon, so -- i am very fortunate and very grateful for where i am at. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thanks, it has been an honor. >> rose: sean foley, thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> captioning sponsored by rose communications

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