>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, a conversation with the biographer of lyndon johnson, robert caro. has your opinion of him evolved? or is it just he's evolved? >> yeah. that's such a good question. my opinion of him hasn't changed. he's still the same lyndon johnson. i mean, his character was forged in this terrible boyhood. it doesn't change. but what he does change... the first two books are basically about a man who's desperate, hungry for power. and he wants to get it. he'll steal an election. he'll do whatever i say he did in the first two books to get it. but in the third book, he has it. he becomes majority leader. the one thing i believe is that power reveals. you know, lord acton says "all power constructs... absolute

power krupps absolutely." i don't think that's always true. what i think is that power reveals. johnson gets power and for the first time we see what he means to do with it. >> rose: robert caro on lyndon johnson when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: robert caro is here. he is a two-time pulitzer prize-winning historian and biographer. he has spent more than 30 years of his life chron klg the life of president lyndon baines johnson. there's these three books already out "the path to power, means of ascent, master of the senate" and now this book, it is called "the passage of power." it clearly is the passage of

power from president kennedy to president johnson. it is a remarkable book and many people have talked about it. columnist in george will has said that when the multivolume series is complete it will rank as america's most ambitiously conceived, assiduously researched and compulsively readable political biography. i am pleased to have robert caro back at this table. welcome. >> i'm glad to be back. >> rose: this is what the "new york times" said: "this engrossing volume spanning 1958 to 1964 is the fourth and presumably penultimate volume in the series that began with the path to power published in 1982 and it showcases mr. caro's masterly gift as a writer, his sense of narrative, his talent for enabled readers to see and feel history in the making and his ability to situate his subjects' actions within the context of their times. of all the chapters in johnson's life, this is the one most familiar to most readers but mr. caro managed to lend

much-chronicled events like the cuban missile crisis and kennedy assassination a punch of tactile immediacy." for a writer that's pretty good, isn't it? this. >> that's wonderful. (laughs) >> rose: why 1958? >> because this is the... this book has a particular arc. in 1958, lyndon johnson is the mighty majority leader of the united states senate. >> rose: this is where you got to him in this volume. >> absolutely. the great maes jorty leader in history. the second-most powerful man in the country. he thinks he has the 1960 presidential nomination locked up. >> rose: because he is the most powerful democrat in the country. >> right. he doesn't realize that there's this young senator, john f. kennedy, who's going around the country often with a single aide ted sorensen in a small plane and he's such a great speaker that wherever he goes people are asking him back and he's building up this base of support and he's finding out who has the

actual power in these states and before johnson realizes what happened, kennedy has taken the nomination away from him. then we see in the same book his years as vice president which are terrible for him, humiliating, powerless. >> rose: '60 to '63? >> '60 to '63. and with the crack of a bullet in dallas the world is reversed. he that has power and he's president. and the last half of the book is the seven weeks after kennedy's assassination. it's the most remarkable taking command of the presidency with no preparation probably in history. and by the end of it, he is not only... he has not only gotten kennedy's civil rights legislation started but he's started the nation on the war on poverty. >> rose: and, in fact, he says in this book when someone says "you're going to get into political trouble when you're doing this," he says what? >> when an aide says "don't press for civil rights, it's a lost cause." he says "well, what the hell is a presidency for?"

>> rose: all right. i want to come back but take me back to 1958. he lost because kennedy had outsmarted him politically and had gone around and was a good speaker and had money to spend and he spent it well. >> yes. >> rose: he goes to the convention. >> yes. >> rose: and there is... it's still not decided. >> absolutely. >> rose: kennedy wins. >> yes. >> rose: and then they decide to offer johnson the vice presidency. >> right. >> rose: bobby kennedy doesn't want that to happen. ettlingered for the rest of johnson's life as a memory. >> yes. >> rose: what happened? well, to set the scene, they're both in the biltmore hotel. the kennedy suite is on the ninth floor, 93934. johnson's is on the seventh floor, 7334. there's a back stairs. bobby kennedy came back... jack kennedy came down the stairs early in the morning and offered lyndon johnson... in effect

offered him the vice presidency. johnson says he has to think about it but jack kennedy goes upstairs and there's a bunch of northern leaders and they're congratulating him, he says in effect "i think he'll take it." three times after that that day robert kennedy comes down those back stairs, three times he tries to get johnson to withdraw from the ticket. the first time he sees sam rayburn and john connolly. rayburn is the mighty... the great speaker of the house and john connolly is lyndon johnson's top aide and you know why johnson picked connolly to run his campaign? he says "he's the only man tough enough to handle bobby kennedy." so bobby kennedy there's with rayburn and connolly and he says "there's going to be a terrible fight, the liberals don't want johnson, labor doesn't want him. how about if he accepts instead the chairmanship of the democratic national committee?" and rayburn replies in a four

letter expletive. bobby kennedy leaves and goes back upstairs. sometime later that day he comes down a second time. this time he meets alone... what happens is he comes down and each time he wants to meet with johnson and lady bird johnson who knows how these two men hate each other says... basically is saying "lyndon, don't meet with him." so the second time rayburn meets with bobby kennedy and it's quite a scene. he comes down and john connolly, who's tough, know there is's someone tougher than him and it's sam rayburn and i write in the book "rayburn was old and rayburn was blind as we soon were to find out he was very, very ill. but in that moment he wasn't old or blind or ill, bobby kennedy says to him, we think lyndon should withdraw. rayburn says to him, are you authorized to speak for your brother? and bobby kennedy says no, and rayburn draws himself up and says then come back and speak to

the speaker of the house of representatives when you are. and then the third time bobby kennedy meets with lyndon johnson alone. and we don't know, really, what happens, because they are... their accounts are so different. bobby kennedy says lyndon johnson started to cry and said he wanted to be on the ticket. johnson has a different story. >> rose: what is johnson's story. >> well, johnson really says that he's asking "doesn't your brother want me?" and rayburn intervenes and says to philip graham, the publisher of the "washington post" "call up and get...". >> rose: who's close to both the president and... kennedy and johnson. >> correct. calls up there and jack kennedy says "it's all set, i'm making my announcement right now. lyndon should go out and make his own announcement." and johnson is in a distraught state. this is a moment where he's been on this roller coaster all day

and he says "i don't know what to do." and actual philip graham says "you go out there and make the announcement." and they sort of push lyndon and lady bird out into the corridor where there's this jam of reporters and they put johnson up on a chair and he makes the announcement and he is the vice presidential nominee. >> rose: saying i accept the nomination of vice president? >> correct. >> rose: to be vice president. >> yes. >> rose: but he also remembered that robert kennedy... >> he didn't forget it until the end of his life. when he's in retirement back on his ranch he's out of the presidency every... visitor after visitor says "you know what? he wanted to talk about that afternoon in longs, how bobby kennedy. he said he came down three times to get me to withdraw." it was one of the dramatic and horrible, you have to say, moments... afternoons in lyndon johnson's life. >> rose: they wanted johnson on the ticket because they thought he could carry texas. >> and the south.

you know, eisenhower had... first place, he had taken texas by 200,000 votes in 1956. the republicans were strong in texas. and eisenhower had also carried four other southern states. kennedy knew-- and he was right-- that if he didn't carry texas and get back some of the southern states he... we wouldn't win. >> rose: so johnson, in effect, helped elect kennedy. >> well, that's one of the forgotten, absolutely forgotten chapters because johnson makes a campaign through the south. he does an old-fashioned whistle-stop campaign. he pulls into all these southern towns, "the yellow rose of texas" is blaring and he turns... the volume is turned up by bobby baker, his secretary of the senate. it would pull into town and johnson would start speaking and he'd give a speech "we have to have a southerner on the ticket, let's not let the south be forgotten." the train would pull away,

johnson wouldn't be finished talking. he once said in a town named culpepper he thinks of his line as the train is pulling out, he said "what did dick nixon ever do for culpepper?" (laughter) >> rose: so they're elected and that begins the period which you also chronicle here of what? vice president. >> johnson was the most... very powerful man. the kennedys cut him out of power completely. he thinks that when he takes the vice presidency that because of his gift for acquiring power, he says... when someone says "you won't have any power if you're in the vice presidency." he says "power is where power goes." meaning wherever i go is power. he's underestimated jack kennedy completely. and he makes a number of moves to try to get kennedy to give him power. he actually drafts an executive order, has an executive order drafted where he would have supervision over several government departments. he asks kennedy to give him the

office in the white house right next to him and to give him his own staff in the white house. kennedy just ignores him. and johnson finds himself without power for three years. he is cut out of all power. although he's the greatest legislator probably of the century. >> rose: did he fear not being on the ticket in '64? >> he... yes. he was convinced in his own mind that john f. kennedy was going to drop him from the ticket in 1964. >> rose: and replace him with anybody we know? >> well, a name was mentioned, terry sanderson. but we don't really know. >> rose: i think that came from kennedy's secretary. >> and i have to say that, you know, in every public statement john kennedy said oh, he'll be on the ticket. but, of course, before he gave him the vice presidency he said over and over again "he won't be on the ticket." >> rose: so therefore what was the relationship between...

beyond the politics of staffs between lyndon johnson and jack kennedy. >> well, you know, it's... kennedy came to sort of be very worried about johnson. jackie kennedy in later years wrote to ted sorensen and said "you must remember how frightened my husband was at the prospect of lyndon johnson might succeed him. so the relationship changed because of a number of things. and by the time jack kennedy is going to texas in november, 1963 johnson is really convinced he's not going to be on the ticket. kennedy has made all these public assurances that he will be on the ticket. but two things are happening kennedy is seeing for himself that the man who has the power in texas now might be john connolly, the governor. and in one of the incredible

incidents in the book that i don't think anyone's written about before, kennedy has john connolly come up to washington to make the final preparations for the trip and he doesn't invite johnson to the meeting. johnson hears... >> rose: so it's kennedy and connolly? >> connolly alone. and johnson hears... he knows connolly's coming up to washington, he doesn't know connolly is meeting with the president, he just knows he's going to be in washington so he invites him to his house for dinner that night and connolly comes and johnson meets him at the door and says something to the effect "i guess you thought i wasn't interested in texas." when connolly was talking to me about this, he said to... i said to him "so what was johnson's demeanor?" and connolly said "he was irritated. and i said to connolly "irritated?" and he said something like "hurt would be the word." the preparations for this trip to his own state would be made and johnson wasn't even

consulted. second thing that's happening is that a scandal... the bobby baker scandal is erupting in washington and johnson is about to be implicated. >> rose: bobby baker was his right hand man in the senate when he was running the senate. >> little lyndon. so at the very time, at the very moment that the motorcade is going through dallas back in washington in a small room in the senate office building a man is testifying who, for the first time, is going to link lyndon johnson to the bobby baker scandal. and he's producing documents and sliding them across the table, the documents that link johnson to the scandal. so this is happening at the moment that the motorcade is going and i write in the book that, you know, johnson... kennedy's assurances that johnson would be on the ticket were given what he was seeing for himself in texas and given about the scandal which was about to erupt in washington

about johnson his assurances start to have a very hollow ring. >> rose: also as you point out there was a magazine getting ready to do an investigation of his financial circumstances and how he had gained control of television franchises in austin and built them. >> that was happening at the same moment. "life" magazine had... lyndon johnson had no other job but being on the public payroll since he was one year as a high school teacher yet he had become a millionaire. live magazine... >> rose: many times over. >> many times over. "life" magazine had found this out and had already run one article about it. and they had nine investigative reporters to look into this. they were all called... they were all finding out about the johnson fortune in texas and they had all been called back to new york to have a meeting in the office of the life executive editor, "life" magazine's

executive editor and they were going to decide whether to start running a series that very week. an article have been prepared to run in that very issue on what one of them called lyndon johnson's money when a secretary runs in... the first thing she says is "the president's been shot,." they don't know that yet. "the president's been shot." and all the reporters run back to their desk. so all this is happening as the motorcade is going through dallas. >> rose: so the motorcade is in dallas, the shots ring out. lyndon johnson is in the second car or third car? >> third car. >> rose: john connolly is with the president. so the shots ring out. >> well, one shot rings out. the first shot, because everyone thinks what is it? is it a fire cracker? except connolly said to me "i was a hunter all my life. i knew it was a hunting rifle." but with that first shot the secret service agent, a man named rufus yarbrough was in the front seat of johnson's car,

whirls around and grabs johnson's shoulder, his right shoulder and yanks him down toward the floor of the car, on the floor... the backseat of the car, leaps over the front seat and lies on top of him, shielding johnson's body with his own. as the car... you know, the president has been killed, at least fatally wounded. the cars are speeding toward park t hospital, lyndon johnson is lying on the floor of the car with this man on top of him, he said "i'll never forget his knees and elbows in my back." they pull into parkland hospital and the agent says "now listen, mr. vice president, when the car stops we're not stopping for anything. we're going into that hospital and putting you in a secure place. don't look at anything and don't stop." and johnson recalls he's yanked out of the car by the secret service agents and runs with

four secret service agents around him and an agent behind them carryinging an automatic rifle looking for a secure place in the hospital. and they finally put him in a little cubicle in the back of the... it's called the minor medical section of parkland hospital and that's where johnson is standing for the next 40 minutes. he doesn't know what's happened to kennedy. >> rose: nobody's come in and out? >> he can't get information. everyone's saying "the doctors with working on president kennedy." so lady bird would talk about how for approximately 40 minutes they stood there and johnson standing against a back wall in front of him is the secret service agent. there's a little room between him and the corridor and two more agents are there. another agent is outside at the door and yarbrough has said to them "don't let anyone in this room unless i know his face." after 40 minutes of rumors, johnson doesn't know what's happening.

kennedy o'donnell, who's very close to kennedy, a friend as well as an aide, walks in and lady bird wrote in her diary "seeing stricken face of kenny o'donnell who loved him, we knew." and a moment later another kennedy aide comes up to lyndon johnson and says "mr. president." and it's the first time he's been called that. >> rose: so then johnson reacts how? >> that's... he is transformed, you know? when he wrote... when he was roaming around the senate floor and he was a figure, you know, of... during the three years where he didn't have power it's like someone... the lack of power almost made him ill. he lost his great amount of weight, he had this hang dog look like this. his suits were too big on him, his steps were shorter. as he's standing there, lady bird said it was like his face turned into a bronze image. people who knew johnson knew that this was what he was like

in emergencies. and by the time the secret service agents come in to tell him to get to the plane, he is in charge. >> rose: and he basically said later "i felt like every... i felt like that i had to do this because the world was looking to me." >> yes, he said "it didn't matter what i felt, if i was afraid to take on the responsibilities or not." not that i think he was. he said "the world was looking to me, i had to reassure the country. i had to get off the plane." they talk about the presidential transition period today. 11 weeks and they're saying it's too short for a president to learn how to assume power. lyndon johnson had basically two hours and six minutes. that's the length of the flight from dallas to washington. >> rose: to assume the presidency. >> he has to get off that plane and be president and on the plane, you know, on... he writes down a list of the things that he has to do when he gets back to washington. and he gets off the plane and

assumes command. and for the next three or four days, three days until president kennedy is buried, he gathers all the reigns of power into his hands and starts running the government. >> rose: and mrs. kennedy is in the back sitting next to the casket. >> on the plane, yes. >> rose: and they say "you've got to take the oath of office. now." yes. >> rose: how did they get her to come up. >> she is asked to come up and she says "i think i ought to do it." i forget her exact words, but it's for history. she understood the importance of... johnson wants her next to him because... >> rose: he understands the importance of the symbol. >> and so, really, does she. >> rose: so she comes up and we see that picture. and then the plane lands in washington. >> right. >> rose: and where does he go? >> well, first there's the horrible moment with bobby kennedy. he thinks... >> rose: what's the horrible

moment? >> well, he thinks he's going to follow the casket off. it's going to be brought out of the rear door of the plane. and he's made the arrangements, you know, the casket will come off and then mrs. kennedy will follow it and then he, lyndon johnson, and lady bird will follow it. so that the nation will in a sense see a symbol of continuity. that's not really what happens. because bobby kennedy, the minute the steps are put next to the plane, runs up the plane and pushes past johnson without acknowledging him and basically organizes things in a different way so that johnson is behind the group of secret service men. the casket comes off and the image that you know and i know, we all know, we see the lift coming down and first it looked... you see this long thing in front then you realize it's the casket.

first is mrs. kennedy with her skirt covered with blood. the lift comes down, the coffin comes down and there's no steps back at the plane and lyndon johnson is left in the plane. and the casket is loaded into an ambulance. the ambulance drives... heads off for bethesda and the autopsy and johnson is still and thing there. >> rose: does he go home at night? >> well, first... >> he gives orders on the plane. one of them is have helicopter there is to take him to the white house, who's to be in the helicopters and there's no podium. there's no... what there is is ten or 12 microphones in the middle of the tarmac glaring lights on it. helicopters... engines going, you can hardly hear them.

you can't picture a more undigfy nighed setting for a president. he comes down from the plane with lady bird. he reads a brief statement in a really calm, dignified reassuring way and gets into the helicopters and the helicopters land on the salt lawn of the white house. he walks right by the oval office. to the right is the cabinet room. there's one person sitting in there, ted sorensen who was so close to kennedy sitting at the cabinet table crying. johnson walks right through the white house and over to his office his vice presidential office in the executive office building and that's where he runs... he stays there for several hours doing things that night and that's where he... then he goes back to his home. >> rose: so he gathers around him the people that had served him yet at the same time he's sensitive and needs the people who are around them. >> rose: exactly.

he knows that... first, the country doesn't know lyndon johnson. he's been in obscurity for three years. the newspaper headlines had been mocking "whatever happened to lyndon johnson?" he knows to reassure the country he has to keep the kennedy people. and these are people who really... they used to call him... the nickname he had among the... many of the kennedy people was "rufus corn phone." or "uncle corn phone poen." they called him and lady bird uncle corn pone and little pork chop. he has to make them to follow him. he has to keep them with him and make them follow him and he does it, it's remarkable. >> rose: so he reaches out to different cabinet members. mcnamara. >> and rusk. >> rose: secretary of defense and state. >> correct. but also to the people like larry o'brien and even sorensen and ken o'donnell and says "i

need you more than he needed you." >> rose: and then you had him bringing his own people in. boil moyers comes in, jenkins is there. george reedy is there. all those people that have served him some had gone on, like moyers, but others had been working as vice president >> yes, but he needed... but a small staff. i mean, he... the reality and what he says in his memoirs is "i knew i had to keep them with me." and they laughed among themselves they said he says to everybody i need you more than he needed you. but what they didn't realize was that this was a genius. he tailored that to arthur schlesinger, the great historian. he said john kennedy knew history like you do. i don't know history. i need you for history. for someone else, something tailored to the others. and they all stayed. >> rose: when did he began to

reach out to mrs. kennedy? to comfort her? >> constantly. from the very beginning. >> rose: a telephone call here. "what can i do"? >> yes. >> rose: they had to plan the funeral. >> well, he does even more than that. that very night... you know, i said that night is remarkable. he gets back to washington and there's so much on his plate. there's a memo there from the budget director saying, you know, we're in the middle of the budget process, you have... you have two weeks to sign off on the budget. but that night he goes and gets two sheets of stationery from the oval office and he writes a letter to john-john and he writes a letter to caroline and he that has time to do that. it's like his mind... if you're interested in power, you say here's a man assuming all the reigns of power and knowing exactly what to do. it's unbelievable. when is there going to be a

joint session that i speak to. where are kennedy's bills? the civil rights bills and the tax cut bill. what can i do? where exactly are they? and not just that first night but over that weekend, friday night, saturday night, and sunday he has to find out the situation and determine what to do about it. >> rose: and he decides to move ahead vigorously. >> it's one of those nights. on one of those nights he says what you... the great... the quote that you picked out. they're drafting his speech to the joint session of congress and they're doing it in his home called the elms and there are a bunch of advisors sitting around the table with copies of the speech and johnson is listening and the big debate is should you even mention civil rights. now president kennedy had proposed the civil rights bill and introduced the civil rights bill in june. the southerners in congress had

bottled it up completely and they were saying... the southerners controlled congress. they were saying don't bring up civil rights, it's a lost cause anyway. and that's when johnson says "what the hell's a presidency for then?" >> rose: what's interesting about this is the research. we'll take it forward in a moment. you found out that the secret service agents had to write in detailed way when a terrible thing happened. they had to go and write their description as they saw it of the event that had taken place. >> when i was doing this book i said, there are hundreds of books on the assassination and none of them go in a serious detailed way into what was the assassination like from lyndon johnson's point of view? like what i was telling you about lying on the floor of the car and the agent lying on top of him. you know, it was known but it wasn't known. the time he spent in the

hospital very little was known about that so i said where can i get information in? then i came across the fact that it was a secret service rule that if you were attached to the presidential or vice presidential detail and there was an "incident" involving the president or vice president you had to at your first opportunity type up a report for the secret service headquarters in washington. i said "can i see it?" is there anywhere in this library these secret service reports? and they were all there. >> rose: that's what you do well. so now johnson is prepared to go to the country and make this historic speech. who wrote the speech in >> well, ted sorensen wrote much of it. >> rose: ted sorensen? >> yeah, but johnson added his own touches to it. johnson appeals to sorensen. basically i can't remember the exact words that are in the book but he basically says to him you

know, you're president would want his program continue and sorensen said i wanted to commit johnson to president kennedy's program. i wanted him to say i'm for civil rights. i'm for the tax cut. so sorensen writes this speech and johnson writes on it his own words. sorensen says "we've been fighting for this civil rights bill for a year." johnson changes it to "all this long year." he emphasizes his own things. he knows he can't give speeches as well. all his life he's been rushing through speechs so he writes on the speech... it's one of the most poignant things i've seen. he writes "pause between paragraphs." then he writes "pause, pause." and he gives a great speech. >> mr. president, members of the house, members of the senate, my fellow americans all i have i

would have given gladly not stop standing here today. the greatest leader of our time has been struck down by the foulest deed of our time. today, john fitzgerald kennedy lives on in the immortal words and works that he left behind. he lives on in the mind and memories of mankind. he lives on in the hearts of his people. no words are sad enough to express our sense of loss. no words are strong enough to

express our determination to determine the forward thrust of america that he began. (applause) >> rose: johnson also began, as we look forward to this, he wants to pass civil rights and yet the people that had put him in power in the senate... >> yes. >> rose:... were southern chairman. >> yes. >> rose: people like richard russell. >> yes. hairy byrd. >> rose: john stennis from mississippi. and all those people now he had to say to them we're going to take forward a civil rights program. >> yes, and it's something to watch the newsreels. they're all sitting in a row watching this speech. this is the man they raised to power and he.... >> rose: and he was younger than all of them. >> yes. >> rose: johnson knew that bypassing the civil rights bill

that... what did he say about the future of the democratic party in the south? >> well, he said with the second bill... he said with the first bill, you're right, he said "we're turning the south back to the republican party for 40 years. >> rose: and he was right. >> yes. yes, he was. >> rose: how do you decide when to end it? this volume? >> well, you know, the last lines of this book really say that johnson had had all these things that made people dislike him, his rages, his bullying. but he knew he couldn't do this in this crisis and he had kept these instincts under control, vanished, for seven weeks and i said he had done it. he couldn't do... he wouldn't be able to do it for much longer but he had done it long enough. that was tend of the book. i said i want to write a book... this is supposed to be just the beginning of the whole book on his presidency.

i said i'm interested in examining political power. if i stop it here we are examining one kind of political power, the passage of power. how does power pass from one administration to another and what can an incoming president do in a crisis? >> rose: becoming president from tragedy. >> rose: >> from tragedy. >> rose: so the next book is obviously going to be the vietnam years, too. >> yes. it's going to be a very different book. >> rose: this is what's interesting. you've criticized... the first book got a lot of criticism. fair you have? >> yes. (laughs) yes. >> rose: and some of this, this they began to say and you began to write about the power and the skills of lyndon johnson. >> yes. >> rose: and how he was the master of the senate. and this... has your opinion of him evolved or is it just he's evolved? >> yeah, that's such a good

question. my opinion of him hasn't changed. he's still the same lyndon johnson. his character was forged in this terrible boyhood. it doesn't change but what he does change... the first two books are basically about a man who's's desperate, hungry for power, and he wants to get it. he's still an election. he'll do whatever i said in the first two books to get it. but in the third book he has it, he becomes majority leader. the one thing i believe is that power reveals. you know lord acton says "all power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely." i don't happen to think that's always true. what i think always true is that power reveals. johnson gets power and, for the first time, we see what he means to do with it. in this book when richard goodwin, who is a kennedy man and then a johnson man, he says something to johnson about using all this power for civil rights and johnson says to goodwin,

i'll tell you... when he was in college he taught mexican kids down by the border and no one else was interested in it but him and he said "you know, i swore then if i ever had the power to help these kids i would help them and i'll tell you something, now i have the power and i mean to use it. so power reveals. so the last two books about something very different than the first two books? in a way they are. it's the same man but my opinion hasn't changed of him. >> rose: so the next book will be... >> the rest of the presidency. >> rose: the rest of the presidency. >> yeah. >> rose: and that's it? >> (laughs) of course that's whey said about this book. i seem to remember being on your program when you asked me if they there'd only be three. (laughs) >> rose: yes, indeed. i've asked it each time. is there one more volume? is that what it is and you can finish this? >> yes. >> rose: and you believe you have accomplished with these

four and with the fifth that is to come what? a study in... >> well, you know, no one ever asked me that but i'm glad you asked me that. i don't regard any of my books "the power broker" about robert moses or these books as just the story of a life of a great man. i never had any interest in doing that. what i had an interest in doing was examining political power and showing how political power works in the united states in the second half of the 20th century. "master of the senate" is about power in the senate. first volume is about power in the congressional district. this is about the passage of power. if i... then the last book will be about the triumphs and the tragedy of lyndon johnson's presidency. if i've suck... i've succeeded or i will succeed in doing this but my aim is is to... if someone reads these they'll understand more about how power worked in a democracy, in

america, in the second half of the 20th century than they did before. >> rose: what's been... what price have you paid to spend your life writing books about power? >> well, the price hasn't been... i mean, there have been tough times and we were... >> rose: almost broke at one time. >> no, we weren't almost broke. i don't know what the definition of "broke" is but we were broke. and... >> rose: because it took so long. >> yeah. my wife eina, you know, was the only researcher who helps me on this. she writes her own book. she's written... she's been on your program. she writes wonderful books about france but she also does research for me and she's been... if you have someone with you who's with you all the time, the price isn't that high. and i'm fascinated.

you'll understand. i like too talk to you about power. it's a fascinating thing. it's fascinating to see what he does in this book. it's just like... the civil rights thing. how did he get it moving. you say, you know, the southerners control congress and this civil rights bill is bottled up. it's not even in the senate, it hasn't even gotten over to the place with the filibuster. it's been bottled up in the house rules committee whose chairman is judge howard smith of virginia. and they can't get it out of his committee, he's not giving it to them. johnson knows that there's one lever that can get it out. a discharge position. it's almost never used and i write in the book if there was only one lever johnson was going to push it. around i write if there was only one lever he was going to put his weight behind it. and you see him use this maneuver to get the civil rights

bill... it's just fascinating. >> rose: you yi in long hand? >> yes. >> rose: still? >> (laughs) i do my first couple of drafts in long hand. >> rose: why do you do it that way? because it flows from your brain to your hand better that way? >> not exactly. i write too fast and i want to slow myself down and make myself think more. >> rose: what's the thing that thrills you most about the process? >> that throws me most. >> rose: no, thrills you. what's the most satisfying part, is it to write the last sentence and hand it over to your publisher or is hit in the midst of the research when you're finding out what you think? >> that's exactly what it is. if you spend time in the johnson library and you see how he's doing. if you're interested in political power, you know, you say this is the greatest... he had a talent that was beyond the talent and was genius and you say "my god, i can't believe he's doing this!" you know? and in the last book... and i

remember saying it to you here. i said he gets the first civil rights bill passed in 1957 when the southerners have basically said it's not going to be passed and you watch him do it. you say this is like magic. so that's the great thing going through the papers there interviewing people. >> rose: it takes so long because? >> well, it takes so long... >> rose: other people take a long time and steve jobs didn't take that long but other books have taken... benjamin franklin, i think, took eight or nine years, that kind of thing. >> although no one believes this i write very fast but you can't rush the research. if there's somebody that you might call, you have to make the call you say how... i was writing about the scene. i was about to write about the scene where johnson takes the oath and jacqueline kennedy is beside him and i said who was in that room? i talked to everybody... i talked to everybody who i could think of, have lain tae.

and i said who was in that room you didn't think of? the fwrafr, cecil stoughton was his name. but i said he must be about 90 years old but now we have eina on the computer does the national telephone directory and there's cecil stoughton and he's 89 or 88 at that time and i called and say mrs. stoughton my name is robert caro i'm writing books about lyndon johnson and she said "cecil's been hoping you'd call." >> rose: (laughs) that's great. i thought you were going to say cecil would answer the phone and say "i was wondering when you'd get to me." >> well, that would even... you know, you love political power. when i was interviewing john connolly we would sit in the mornings, he had this grand ranch down in florida and he had a stable of quarter horses and the mexican cowboys would exercise them in the morning and

he'd come by my guest house about 6:30 and we'd sit on the fence and i'd ask them questions that we all want answers to, and he would answer about how lyndon johnson got things done because connolly was closer to him than anybody. and you said this is like the course in the things we love but things i had never thought of. >> of all the people who knew him, connolly was the closest, you think? >> well, connolly was the guy he relied... there were two guys. john connolly and a name no one's known named edward a. clark who was called the secret boss of texas who ran texas for johnson who he relied on most. >> rose: did he make him an also sdmor >> yes, to australia. and ed clark and i, when he was alive ed and anne and eina and i would have dinner every sunday night and he would answer every question. it's like he was giving this guy from the northeast a lesson in texas politics.

>> rose: boil moyers? >> moyers has refused to talk to me. >> rose: why? >> well, you would have to ask him that i've been trying to talk to him for, like 30, years. at first he said he was writing his own book on lyndon johnson but i think that's over and recently he's been saying he doesn't have his thoughts in order and he wants to get his thoughts in order. you would have to ask him. >> rose: has anybody else close to him refused? >> off the top of my head i think the answer is no. >> valenti talked. >> he really attacked the first two books more harshly than anyone else finally he said "i see what you're doing and i want to talk to you." george christian, his last press... lyndon johnson's last press secretary had lung cancer and he was dying and he basically said to me in effect i want to talk to you, i've been attacking you for however many

years. so i went do there and we had three interviews, he had lung cancer and he had an oxygen tank in his office. the first interview he only had to use the mask occasionally then i talked to him a few days later, his condition was deteriorating and he had to use ate lot. the third time he only talked to me for a bit and he said something like well, that's all i can do, you have to get the rest from other people. >> rose: you know this story. i knew john connolly. and john connolly told me a story once, we went to lunch and he told me a story how lyndon johnson at the time that hubert humphrey was getting the nomination for president in chicago, johnson sent him to chicago, he said, to observe what's going on. and make sure that humphrey... i'm trying to remember this

well. you probably know this. >> actually, i'm not sure about it. (laughs) >> rose: but connolly said to... he told me connolly said johnson said you go to chicago, make sure to keep his feet to the fire with respect to vietnam at that time. he didn't change on vietnam until the campaign. >> rose: no, johnson really kept his feet to the fire. >> rose: that's the story you will be telling. he went back to texas after announcing he was not going to run and the presidency ends and richard nixon is elected president. >> yes. >> rose: people say that he was ready to die. >> well, you know... >> rose: in his 60s. >> yes, he dies at 64. there are a number of things that happen without my saying because i haven't arrived at a conclusion on that.

think of him in the white house. he has a wife and two daughters. outside in pennsylvania avenue all through the last two years people are chanting "hey, hey, l.b.j., how many kids did you kill today?" you can hear those chants in the white house. he knows his daughters are hearing those chants, his wife is hearing those chants. horrible. he speaks to doris kearns in his retirement about that horrible song, he calls it "hey, hey, l.b.j., that horrible song." one thing that happens is johnson was a... before his heart attack which happened in 1955 at the age of 47, he's a three pack a day smoker or more because there were always three or four ashtrays with cigarettes going in each of them. he has this... i don't know that i can they will story. but he has this heart attack in virginia and in the ambulance taking him to washington... it's a massive heart attack.

he only had a 50-50 chance of living the doctor said. he says to the doctor "if i recover can i smoke?" the doctor says "no." and he says "well, i'd rather have my pecker cut off." but he has this great willpower and he doesn't smoke cigarettes until the day... he lights up his next cigarette on a plane taking him back to texas with nixon's... after nixon is sworn in and he smokes a lot until he dies. so you don't really know... >> rose: went back to smoking. >> went back to smoking. so i have to think about the question you asked. but in retirement you think of the circumstances and no matter how you feel about lyndon johnson it's a very poignant and sad story at the end. >> rose: did you love him? >> i don't think i love him.

usually people ask do you like him or dislike him. i was thinking about that the other day and i don't think that like and dislike are actually terms that apply. >> rose: that a biographer uses? >> i wouldn't say that. but i would say what i am... i'm interested in political power and he's so great at using it that what i really am is in awe of him. >> rose: did he understand political power better than anyone. >> i believe lyndon johnson understood political power in the senate and in the presidency better than anyone else in the second half of the 20th century. >> rose: and his genius was he understood people he knew their strengths; he knew their weaknesses, he knew their fears. he knew what it would take to reach inside of them and find out what button to push to make them bend to his will. >> and you see that in these telephone conversations. you hear him working people around. >> rose: how smart was he?

>> oh, unbelievably smart. i mean, unbelievably quick. like on the senate floor when he's running the senate and there were more debates and more back-and-forth fights. he always knew the moment that he could win. he always knew the amendment that he could put in. >> rose: what i have just done is set up the next book which is the notion of a man so smart and who had smart people tell him how... that the policy he was pursuing was wrong and would have awful consequences. on the other hand, a man that's been shaped business his experiences so that the balance between those two things overwhelmed him in tend. >> overwhelmed him. but also made... like in this book we see him, he's gotten kennedy's program moving with the civil rights and the tax cut

bills, then he says really, because he says i've got to get some program of my own to put my stamp on the presidency. and he goes back over christmas in 1963, december '63 to his ranch where as a boy he was so poor, so humiliated by his father's poverty and he creates a war on poverty. now kennedy... the genesis of it was in the kennedy administration but it hadn't taken any form or gotten anywhere. he comes back from that ranch and makes the war on poverty speech, his first state of the union speech. that's why this book in effect ends there. and he says in this unbelievable line "too many americans live on the outskirts of hope." think of that line. he says "we're going to end poverty." think of the ambition of that. here's the president who says we're going to end poverty in the united states.

so so the circumstances of his youth, at the end of this book you say look what he's done in seven weeks. >> rose: look what you've done in 30 years. right here. one, two, three, four. >> (laughs) >> rose: thank you. >> my pleasure. >> rose: a masterful job. >> thank you. >> rose: robert caro for the hour. a study of lyndon johnson. this book "the passage of power" as lyndon johnson in dallas succeeds a dead president and holds the country together. thank you for joining us. see you next time.