>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight a conversation with francoise gilot who lived with pablo picasso for ten years, and john richardson, picasso's biographer. >> francoise always called the shots, picasso didn't, she won't admit this, but she was the one who called the shots. >> rose: the only one. >> the only one. >> rose: who called the shots. >> simply, it was also -- but no, i think also from the other -- when some misfortunes with pablo, they were entirely in his power, where i was never in his power, because even economically, you know, my family was not of the poorest, and i admit, i went to study and all of that. i was not anyone to take t to te care of myself. >> rose: you were an independent force. >> yes, and i always knew that.

so picasso should have known that, because i had told him, you know, i am exactly as you think, because many people, you know, get are not holding them like puppets, but i don't fall aparty. >> apart. but he could not believe that. >> rose: francoise gilot and john richardson when we continue.for earliosas r wendins provided by the following.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: francoise gilot and pablo picasso met in paris in 1943 during the nazi occupation of france, he was 61, she was 21, they were together then for ten years before she left him,

taking the two children with her. gilot wrote in the memoir life with picasso that a relationship with the great artist was a catastrophe i didn't want to avoid. their life and their work is a subject of new exhibitions at the gagosian gallery in new york, it is called francoise gilot, 1943 to 1953, joining me now, curator of the biography john richardson and the artist himself francoise gilot, i am pleased to have both of them together at this table for the first time. it is the first time the picassos have been seen together? >> that is a first exhibition, we ever had together. >> that is amazing. >> it is a little too late. >> rose: it is never too, it is never too late, that's right. how did it happen? >> it happened on account of john richardson who had the idea. >> rose: this is part of a series of things you have done with looking at picasso. >> yes, this one is different because previously it was the

mistress of the period who was involved, and with francoise it was a whole different thing because francoise as a painter in her own right and this is what i wanted to establish and people always thought oh well she was a painter in her own right but under the umbrella of picasso, not at all, she never painted like picasso, picasso took, i think, rather more from him, picasso took from her rather more than she took from him. and this is what i wanted to show in this show, that it was unlike the others, it wasn't as concentrated on the personality of the girl in question. this was really to do with the great revolutions that took place in his work at paris-vallauris that he revolutionized ceramics, ceramics has never been the same. >> rose: he took it to a new place. >> he took it to a totally new place and he also got lithography which is a rather

boring medium and used by -- because you could make so many impressions from it, it wasn't liken graving, you couldn't make that many. and he took that to new heights and broke all the rules and created in his own work i think one of the most important parts of his late work, and then there was a sculpture which he did which when he was with francoise which with was a whole n thing, he had these sort of, little bits of iron which he would bring back and turn into sculpture, and these three achievements and the fact that he did this with francoise and francoise was not influenced by him, that he was in a way more open to influence than she was, made this into an absolutely fascinating show. >> rose: when was the moment you met picasso. >> i was, a friend of mine who was very beautiful named genevieve and with an actor, who a time was playing the part of

magnus in the shakespeare play at the theater and invited us to dinner at the katalon, that restaurant, and during the dinner, picasso arrived with, along with the ramouir and -- >> rose: being a woman in his life at that moment? >> yes. and so -- but he could not keep his eyes away from our table. i could see that. and -- >> rose: it doesn't surprise you, does it? >> not in the least. >> and then he found on this table, he had a bunch of cherries in a bowl, so it was a good excuse for him to get up -- >> rose: offer you some cherries. >> yeah, but he knew, so he said, will you introduce me to your friends? and genevieve said speaking of my friend,

genevieve, this is a beautiful one, and about me, she the intelligent one. force. >> also the bowl of cherries represented you. >> many times, after that, you know, how many times it appeared in his still lives of the time and also usually there was the still life and two of, two or three glasses of water and those two or three glasses of water was to remind all of us of the meeting of the -- of that meeting at that restaurant. >> rose: and ho how long before you two were together? >> since i was the ininnocent one i had a good idea to give him an invitation zero so a little exhibition i was having with my friend in paris, and so he went there without .. saying anything one morning and he left a little note to me saying he thought i did very well and that i could come to his studio one morning.

so -- >> rose: the rest is history. >> so about two weeks later, we allowed time to lapse and then a week two, weeks later we came there and when he saw the two faces he didn't like it at all, because she was trying to keep things in order, you know, s soe saw that didn't smell good at all. but at that time, to begin with, i saw picasso once in a while. >> rose: you didn't move in with him did you for a long time? >> , no i moved with him in 46. >> rose: three years later. >> yes. but, you know, it started like a friendship, on picasso's side he was always tried to go further if he could but i was not quite -- i didn't think that was a good idea. >> rose: because of age or because of what? >> no, not age, because, you know, it was 40 years older than myself, but he was so bright, so marvelous and such a great

artist that he exuded life, you know, i mean, and also his attitude for people of my generation, his attitude during the war was exemplary, because after, he never took his passport, he was, you know, it was like having no passport, he was spanish, he was not french, so it was really -- the people like, from the french, particularly the police like mr. dubois and -- he was protected by a network of people. >> rose: yes. >> he was terrified of the francos who were kidnapping people and taking them back to spain and torturing them than the germans, the spaniards. >> about picasso, of course, one of the tales, you know,.

>> rose: decadent. >> but it was not as much against him as was franco, because of the famous drawings of franco. so frankly, -- because people say ah, he did not -- well, what would have been the good of picasso with a gun, you know? it is the fact that he was there that he did not go away from paris at that time was meaningful. yes, it said something. >> rose: it was a symbol. >> same thing as matisse was in the south of france, they did not want to move. they said we don't want to abandon the country in the bad hours, so that's what we feltment. >> what is amazing is that picasso was let's face it the icon of anti-fascism and therefore put himself as enormous risk by staying on and picasso was someone who had

enormous amount of courage in the studio but didn't a have tht much courage out in the street, i mean he was scared of the gendarmes he didn't like the police or authority in any form and so to put himself in this position was an act of amazing courage. >> that's what i think. >> rose: fair enough. so you stayed there until after the war and then went to value central. >> , vallauris. >> yes, yes, it became more personal but not right away. about a year after i met him or something like that, and then i saw him also because of -- i saw he was he was of the strange temperament when they went away. so i went to see him, whenever i felt like it, but there were times when i did not go, because i wanted to stay a bit -- a healthy distance. >> francoise always called the

shots, picasso didn't, she won't admit this, but she was the one who called the shots. >> rose: the only one. >> the only one that called the shots. >> well, simply, it was also -- but, no, i think that also from the other women who had miss fortunes with pablo, they were entirely in his power, where i was never in his power, because even economically, you know, my family was not of the poorest and i admit, i went to study and all of that. i was not -- i was able to take care of of myself. >> rose: you were an independent force. >> yes and i always knew that. so picasso should have known that. because i towed him, you know, i am not exactly as you think. because many people get, holding

them like puppets, but i don't have strings, and i don't fall apart. >> but he could not believe that, you know, so he had to experience it. >> rose: the other thing that amazes me about him and you and you have shared this, for him art was everything, that was his drive, his passion, to paint, everything would suffer except for his art. >> yes. that's true. wouldn't you agree with that? >> yes. >> rose: the awe then advertise of the art for him. >> yes. exactly, but also he was always making extra using people as -- >> little molecules, you know. >> rose: little molecules, people. >> yes, so he used people, because he always wanted to know how somebody -- he was very interested to know, it was such a circumstance, it was planning to say if i plan, he will do this or that, will he really do it? >> rose: and then why did you

leave? >> i left in september, people say i left at the beginning of that year, not exactly because i went to paris because i was making a set for, together so finally i left in september of 1953. >> rose: because? >> >> because i thought the time of that -- because it was something absolutely marvelous but we had to will it together, and when we had become distinct and i think -- and then also, i did not quite like the idea that the children would be brought up as badly as paul, who could never, was quite an intelligent guy and could never do anything, because his father never let him do anything. >> rose: it is hard to be picasso's son? >> yes, also because he had

rather old-fashioned ideas of being a father, didn't he? he wasn't an easy going father by any manner or means, he was very dictatorial with his children and certain times, i remember him, everybody had to sit silently before any journey was made, sit in absolute silence. >> that was the guy, because russian people always, russian people do that, you know, russian people go and they on a trip at the have to sit around a table and have one minute of silence so we still do that, even though -- we still do that because he was very superstitious so if there was any superstition you could use to not have a bad things happen, that was what you would do. >> but he got superstition from dora and got superstition from olga, he collected superstitions, and i mean he could hardly move because of superstition sometimes. i mean, there were so many things which had to be done or brought up or the children had

to shut up or whatever it was, before -- >> the umbrella could not be opened inside a room or i don't know what. >> rose: here is one of the things he said that i admire a lot because i believe this 150 percent. quote, everybody has the same energy potential, the average person waists his in a dozen little ways, i bring mine to bear on one thing only, my paintings and everything else is sacrificed to it, my self, included. >> uh-huh. i think that is a good quotation, and it is true. and also he had another story about -- above that which was a story susan, apparently went on the motif, with a little cart with a horse, and many times would go with a painter to go to victor or something like that and one day, knock, knock, knock, he goes to a friend's house and the made made comes out and said, .. he went hunting, so he said, oh, i

thought it was -- and never saw him again. >> rose: i saw he was a painter. but he went hunting he is no longer a painter. >> so, for example, pablo did not drive his car himself or so said, you know, a painter should be too poor to have a car,. >> he had this thing that driving was bad for an artist's hands. >> no, the wrists. >> oh, the wrists. >> because he never -- he was -- he was a very good driver, drove very fast but i mean picasso was -- don't drive, don't drink, it will ruin your hands. >> your wrists. >> >> rose: oh, wow. see, i have a fear about all great artists, a variety of disciplines, they care so much about what it is, every aspect, if it is an delete the way their body works, if it is a painter the way the hands work. >> you know, you paint with a brush but you paint with your body. >> rose: exactly. >> yes. >> rose: now, how were you

different than him? you? or did you become in some ways, in some ways, one? >> no, i think that is what is obvious in this is that there was a dialogue. >> rose: ah, that's the word i am looking for. >> >> rose: there was a dialogue. so there was a dialogue about painting and everything? >> you know, by definition -- a dialogue is not a monologue. >> rose: ah! >> so if you don't have somebody with whom you can step an idea or even disagree then there is no dialogue. i think that he liked to have that either with other painters or with poets, and yet that was at the time of and with me, in a sense, he had that type of dialogue, because i was not -- >> rose: about painting? >> oh, yes, oh, anything else also, because i was not what you

call -- we say in french, you say, yes, yes, yes, no, i had a tendency to say no. because once i remember it was not very pleased with, ah, the son of the woman who always says no. >> rose: that is great. had you heard that before? >> no, i hadn't heard that one. >> rose: the son of the woman who never says no. >> that is not true i would never say, i would not ever, i would not always say no, sometimes i would say yes. >> rose: why. >> which what did he safe when you leave. >> he says nobody leaves a man like me. >> and i said wait and see. >> rose: wait and see. >> i think he was completely bewildered by this. this had never happened to him. >> rose: look at the way she says that. wait and see. >> no. because i had a sense of humor, you know. and i thought -- i thought, for

example, if he had thought twice he was so intelligent, why did he say that to me? that was really for sure -- >> rose: for a smart man he totally misjudged you? >> because if he said that i was about to do it, otherwise i would not have done it may be. so i am a, i have a very bad temper too, which i did not show for quite a while but i am a person with a very bad temper, and so when he said, nobody leaves a man like me, i said, well -- >> francois is a survivor, in life and she survived triumphantly. >> rose: yes. >> but all of the others came to grief in one way or another, and -- >> rose: she had a long and happy life with salk. >> yes, yes. >> but what i think is that nevertheless, the relationship between picasso and myself on the wole was not negative. it was extremely positive with

negative aspects, like any other relationship, you know, but i think that with him, it did not destroy -- you see, in a sense, because he had a very sadistic side to him but i would say that with me, he was also my kind of -- >> rose: independence. >> admired my independence, and so he did not -- he did not try to destroy me. i think it was worse with many other women. >> rose: much worse. >> don't you think? >> yes. >> so i think in a sense, in a sense, i think he never wanted to destroy me, and so that is why maybe i am still there, and also, i have something when i said that, oh of course, always exaggerated, because.

>> rose: claude, your son. >> one day, when i was really about to leave picasso told me, you know, you are complaining about the ten years you spent with me, but i will give them to you back at the end of your life. and now that i am 90, i think, because nobody lives that long in my family, you know. so i think probably i believe that he gave me much more positive than negative on the whole. >> and i think you gave him so much, because it is clear from having worked on this show that in this is a great, great phase in picasso's life and it is very positive and he does do -- >> but there was love on both decide you have to admit it was love, it was a big passion on both sides. >> and it is innovative and new stuff, and it is -- and i think that is what francoise gave him was this, you know, it is a hugely positive time, and this is what i wanted to prove in the show and show how enormously

important, enormously positive that period is. >> rose: let's look at some things and show that through the paintings by picasso. >> well, this is a portrait of me in 1946 -- in at that -- yes, 1946. >> yes, exactly. >> made in the south of france, when we lived tiny house of that printer was called mr. fall and as you see, my hair, which was reddish at that time, and rather full, and a green dss -- >> rose:. >> the green dress -- >> yes, because we had gone together to see matisse previously, and when matisse, when pablo came with me the first time, he pretended he thought that picasso had brought me so he could do my portrait. you should have seen picasso's

face. but this was the sense of humor, oh, picasso how kind to bring me the young painter, but i will make a portrait. so, ah, said picasso, who didn't want to go in flames right away. and what hour would you do that bore trait? oh i will do it with a green and blue that is pailer is what i will do. and after that .. when we came back, picasso said to me, what nerve! what nerve! he is not going to make your portrait! and that is after that, picasso started to make portraits of me. >> rose:. >> >> it was pale blue and the head was like a little sun with green leaves, you know, abundant hair at that time as you can see.

>> rose: okay. the next one is winter landscape, this is 1950. >> yes. >> rose: tell me about this one. >> first of all, that painting is extremely important because at the first site, winter, seen with or without leaves, like skeletons, and so -- and the one behindsch a palm tree, next to a auare house, and the pantry, in my mind standsan for m matisse d it is called t dream, and the big tree, which is is to the right is picasso himself, and then to theas left, a tree thats smaller, a bit wide dish .. that is me. >> you are anything but anemic. >> >> maybe also, pretended to be

me, because when you wear clothes to picasso, you must show yourself very small. more prudent. >> rose: more prudent. >> yes. yes. more prudent. >> rose: you seem to have understood him very well. >> what i discovered about this painting, which excited me, was it kept on reminding me of something and suddenly i realized when i was working on the show, of course, the el greco in the met so i went, madison avenue and looked, and cheerily picasso knew it, so i did a bit of research an indeed the great old greco landscape in the met was belonging to a dealer from 1900 to 1910 whenen picasso was living in paris and wod have seen it and the s color, the composition, the sort of feeling is straight out of el greco and we know at the time he had done another version of el greco or two other versions of

el greco a self-portrait of el greco as a paint sore he must have also had a book. do you remember what book he had on el greco he must have had a book around. >> yes. and also, you know, even when he was quite young, in barcelona before he came to paris his friends would order such things. one of them was the first one to buy el greco and bring it to barcelona, so even in barcelona, he had seen some mag any extent el greco so he was interested in el greco much more before. he saw it later in france, he must have been intrigued. >> el greco had been forgotten as a paint never spain and nobody -- the name was money to nobody until the spanish painters suddenly started taking him up at the end of the 19th

century of going through the streets with el greco showing in the air what a great painter he was and because they, and picasso picked up on that. >> rose: the next one we will take a look at is called woman drawing, this is 1951. >> well, that is a portrait of me holding a pencil, but i don't know why it is round in the middle, and i asked pablo to explain why he did this, i don't know. but anyway, it is supposed to be myself in the process of drawing. >> this is important. because it is zero only painting, really, in which picasso accepts the fact that he is a fellow painter. >> rose: yes. >> and usually he is perceived as a mother and playing on the floor with the children but here she is seen very, as a serious painter, and that is an enormous, in a way, thing for him to, it is a great admittance for him to have made because he

didn't like to see women in his life as being rivals or doing something he thought he was better at than anybody. >> rose: he was the king and here he was acknowledging a talented artist. >> yes. >> i think at the beginning, he kind of liked it, it is when i -- it is when i had the show at the gallery in 52, i understood that was a bit too much, that i was allowed to paint, but not to become known, i think. >> rose: did that resonate with you? >> yes, it does. he didn't want any rivalry. least of all from the woman in his life. >> rose: yes. >> the next one, take a look at the next one, this is 1952, naked woman twisting her hair. >> stump a wonderful painting. >> francois you had never seen this painting before? >> no, i never did.

>> rose:. >> rose: until you brought it to her attention. >> yes. he showed her everything but he must have hidden this one because it is the most powerful of all of them it is a fantastic painting. >> and the hair, it is something you see with, look at the hand of picasso, so -- i think it was maybe a bit too much, so he never showed it to me, that's all i can say. >> this is also an element in it, that i can't help, forgive me for saying, i am going to wash that man right out of my hair. that's what it is all about. >> perhaps, programs, yes. >> yeah. >> the south pacific t, the date of south pacific, that song. >> i think there -- >> rose: the song -- >> you see a woman alone, and she is, you know, removing the

water from her hair. >> rose: so the next one is, free sculptures here, talk about this, john. >> two of them are about francois's, one is francois is pregnant which she doesn't like at all, and she made her -- made this very obvious to him so his reaction was to chop her feet off. she doesn't have any feet in that. actually, it is a marvelous image of a pregnant woman and the pregnancy is a broken pot, he took a broken sort of vessel and stuck it on the plaster -- >> and also i think he thought that with the children i would never dare to leave him. >> rose: once the children were born you wouldn't dare leave. >> and so that's why he wanted a third one, i said, no. absolutely no. >> rose: he wanted a third child. >> to make sure i would not leave him. >> and the one on the right, the

one mailed of little bits of wood, which he found lying around, and that is again francoise's pa lo ma, tossing her daughter above her head and that is gorgeous. >> rose: wow, look at that. >> and we have such a sense of humor, you see. >> and the one in the middle is -- it seems to me all about about war and the korean war was going on picasso was painting during the two paintings which involved his hatred, his pacifist hatred of war and i think this one is the most desolate and unforgettable images of war. >> rose: take a look at the next one. francois. >> they are of the same type as a woman flower. >> this is a woman flower. >> rose: this is a woman flower. >> more or less but it is not the first one. >> rose: but what do they say? >> what do they say? >> well,. >> the one in the center was a

doll, you know, in the house of some friend of his and he never sent it back. he kept the doll at his studio. >> i like the one -- i like the one with the green and blue one. >> rose: yes. to the left? >> to the left. which has a very tiny, tiny head. >> rose: yes. tiny. >> the head is almost invisible, but it is there, and to kind of -- the contrary to the fact there was more or less an intellecal so he gave me the smallest of small heads. >> it also is a says thank you, matisse, because the concept of the blue and the green was matisse's. >> and really it is very much inspired by what matisse said. >> rose: okay. the next one is double row of lithographs. s. y yes. >> so the lithographs started

with the color lithograph and ty the left, which was about five colors, so that means five different stones. and he was not satisfied of it "in color", and so he started working on each of the different stones and with them to something else. and that's why -- and it is very interesting. i think generally, got that collection from claude, who has all of the different states, though some of them were not painted as a lithograph. >> a lot of these, a lot of what we will see at this exhibition at the gagosian are works of art held by the family. >> yes, all of those are held by the family but a lot come from her son claude and also from the picasso's legitimate grandson. >> rose: right. all right. i should say this.

some say, and you would know, that she sort of revived his interest in lithograph? >> well, yes, i think she certainly did, and francoise -- >> yes, but i am not -- >> to be fair, it is merlot who had the workshop of literature graph at this who cake, lithograph y, he saw picasso first and then matisse in the south of france .. >> and he went to see chagaux. >> yes, and then they started to work with a little bit of rivalry, and a great deal of emulation, if you would like to put it that way. so i was interested, and i followed him, to the workshop, so i saw that from the beginning, but i was not the catalyst. the catalyst was merlot.

>> rose: okay. the next one? >> this is a case of ceramics. and, john, you have already said that it was in this period he became very creative about ceramics. >> well, this all goes back to this character who came in to picasso's life in francoise's life they ma, a refugee from the concentration catches and he came there and picasso and francoise saw him as a harlin again a magical fir that got things done and he came up where you painted the great temple series and the one who came up with the pottery, the first pottery. he masterminded all of these changes. he never has been given credit for it, nobody seems to remember who he was. i have written a bit about him because i think he was so important and so overlooked, and he was the one who put picasso in touch with the remoir who

produced all o all of this pottr him. >> francois -- >> yes, there was also, because at the beginning, picasso took frofrom the shapes there and decorated them but soon enough, he was interested in making the forms himself and that's where you see the small stamps that look like, statues that are beautiful and where he had the potter turn, we call it turn, like it would be different sizes, and he let it dry for a day or a day and a half and when they are still extremely supple because they are still full of water he will take them with the greatest care with his hands, you know, and fold them like this or that. and like this. and made a statue of it, which

was just -- and after that many times he painted them and then they went to the kiln, but i find those absolutely incredibly stunning, the inventiveness and also i saw them being made, the sensitivity of his hand working on that fresh material, you know, it was so ductible. >> and the ceramics -- >> rose: all right. the next, take a look at the next one. this was, oh, 1950. >> this was 1950. >> yes. >> rose: it says something about his relationship with family? >> yes. i mean, claude is in a little car. >> rose: yes. >> and the figure of claudia, even though the cart but the figure of claude kind of ascending, the figure of -- descending toward the little train, so i, so i think the forces at play in that painting,

the buildup of the painting is very, very interesting. there is also the -- the armchair, empty. you know, it is empty, i am sure, because at that time of the armchair was like a chair, and so there, the children can't play because the armchair is empty. >> the electric chair, it was lethal in some of these paintings the others it was comfortable and wrapping his arms around you, what i love about this painting too, the rhymes picasso makes between the wheels of claude's motorcar and of the tile work on the four. >> rose: ah. >> so it is exactly the same motif serves as the wheels of the car and also the tiles for the floor and plays a lot around with that. >> and even the face of the little girl is also a circle,

you see. so, yes, it is a repetition of shapes. >> which rhyme, these rhyming shapes and so on. and the characterization of the children is so fascinating because he was tough on pa lo ma. >> always, i was always wondering why, he made him into a monster each time. i think he was taking revenge on me. >> rose: the dog. >> ah. >> she has a good line on that one. >> a dog was a boxer called ya and i was always playing with the dog but you know, when you start at the beginning, being the woman flower and you begin to be a monster of a woman playing with a defense less poodle dog -- >> you are the aggressor, yes. >> yes, of course.

>> i said, picasso i said to francoise once, picasso is presumably the dog in this and no, picasso saw him self not as dog but as god. .. >> rose: you look at it at first plans you would think that but -- >> isn't she terrible? yes. plus, you know, since picasso used to late motif colors for the women so my late motif color was green and blue, so it is obviously about me, and that is what is going on, and the violence of the red rug is something terrible. i have fallen from my high seat. >> rose: this was in 1953 so this is near the end. >> uh-huh. toward the end, about. >> rose: all right. there is one more here.

this is a group of paintings of. >> paloma, and tell competent about this, john. >> well paloma. >> pa lo ma, as seen in a happier life than the previous one. ? he is not only the floor and growling, here she looks like a happy kid, and there is a whole series of these which are absolutely gorgeous. >> rose: okay. so this is the first painting we see of yours. >> uh-huh. >> this is 1943. >> yes. >> where did you paint this? the in paris. >> yes. i painted that, in my parent's hope, because you see the -- it was from the window of a window looking southward, that was to other houses, it was when we had a house which was fairly large, and other houses there too. >> rose: so your parents wanted you to be a lawyer? >> my father thought i had to study the law.

he said, because, you know, i was very imbued, he said, oh, what you need is lead shoes, the shoes of lead to put you down because you are a little bit too much. so -- >> rose: he was right. >> he was right, yeah. but, you know, parents are always wrong to be right. >> rose: yes indeed. you are right. so, you know, who influenced you at that point? i mean, before we look at this one -- >> well, you se see there are to others which, you know, a fish -- a fish, a fish that is dead on a plate, and with a knife, it was a way to interpret the theme of the fish, if you like, and the table moment of the occupation, et cetera, and in fact, i was probably influenced by the painting of the still

life of -- i had seen at the salon in 1942, or 1941, i can't remember, but i was quite -- under the influence of brac at that time, i loved what he did and i loved the still lives which were of every day life, the toilet with the little toilet. which were so innocuous in terms of what is figured, and what it means in terms of, you know, the sadness of every day life at that period, the french people could understand it and for example, each time during the occupation of paris, each time there would be an exhibition, they would come, the day before a group of german not in uniform, eight or ten, you know, with that manner of -- i don't

remember his name, and anyway would come and look at an exhibition and say this no, this, yes, this, no. >> rose: extensor ship? >> yes. absolutely. and for example, once i was at the gallery in 1942, for example, and i was there the day before the opening, because i knew the people of the gallery, and those german people came and .. all of them, sat down and matisse sat down and it was a choice they made before an exhibition, so the painters, some painters were nearly not to be scene seen, but at that time, when you knew people from the galleries, you just would stay in the gallery like until 6:00 p.m., and then the people of the gallery would show you all of the forbidden paintings.

like but say at that time, like for her i could see myself after 6:00 in the evening she showed me the forbidden work, so it was very interesting. everything was doing the thing you could not do, you know, and it kind of trying to live as normally as if -- because intellectual life was not free. >> picasso was in hiding because he was jewish, and he spent the whole war in hiding. >> yes, yes. >> with his wife. and his place was taken by his partner. but they had a very tough time, and -- >> yes. and that his wife was from, i don't know what country in france, so they were not there, otherwise, most people would try to hide, they were denounced by the people of the village. >> rose: the people who when they tried to hide the people in the village would denounce them?

>> oh, yes. >> rose: give them up? >> wow. >> the number -- the number of anonymous letters that were written at that time is -- >> or a little cash. >> rose: the next is a self-portrait of you. >> yes. >> rose: what does this reveal about how you saw yourself? >> i went to the -- well there is one to the right where i am dressed in black. that is 43. >> rose: beautiful. >> when i wanted to mean by that that we were all in, you know, like after a death, because. >> in mourning. >> mourning from the death of france. >> rose: yes. >> and then the one in 46, that is more cheerful because that is after the had been investigation of paris at the time. >>s on i -e is one -- that is in 1946. >> because you stopped painting after doing this for three years, didn't you? and you were pregnant? s y- -as whenoo -- as soon as -- until -- when i was still having my own

personal studio i painted all the time but when i started to live with pablo i did not -- i knew, i knew him well enough to know that i should stick -- as much as i could and certainly not when you paint you leave canvas behind you, if i made drawings, you did that -- not have so much stroll but painting so i decided i should not paint, i should make all my work on paper, and consider it like working in a lab when you do the thing. >> rose: interest aring. >> interesting. >> so 46, you see -- >> rose: that is a wall of drawings by you. >> yes. so the top one, it is a portrait of pablo i did in 1945 from memory. the one in the lower left there is -- it is the title is adam

obliging eve to eat the apple, so you can understand what it means, and then there is one to the lower right which, don't touch me. >> rose: yes, yes. >> stop. >> >> all right. there is one last here. this is the telephone call. this is 1952. >> yes. and obviously tell us about this. >> and well, you know, i believe also, i believe, for example, i am thinking on poetic subject matter, also modern objects, i thought it was a part of modern, to be modern was to february something to be modern some -ing to pen something that didn't exist in the 19th century so i thought the telephone was a good idea so i did that, one with a telephone and always came,

always want to know who is on the phone, et cetera. i did another one which is fairly large, where i am alone and i am holding the book of the telephone, because at that time, on the telephone book, you hold the three letters of the back bonn, b and since i wanted to write invalid, inv and the number, no need of explanation. >> so that was all my little -- what can i say, british sense of humor. >> yes. why not. >> rose: in the end, what influence did pablo have on you? >> oh, i think it is enormous, because first of all, i think it was the most important passion in my whole life, you know. with all of the good and the bad, i never loved somebody like that. ever since or before. which doesn't mean i was alone.

i often was alone, but it was, you know, like this or like that, but it was without limit. i mean, it was well, what can i say? so there was passion on both sides. >> rose: i was going to say. what influence did you have on him? >> i don't -- >> i think an enormous influence, because you have to look back a bit, i mean, you know, his marriage to olga, had come to disastrous end. >> this is the russian ballerina wife, who went more or less mad, and was the rest of her life, they separated and they never divorced. and then in the background it always had been a sweet, nice girl, but, you know, she wasn't sophisticated or educated or anything up to his intellectual

standards, and so she was always sort of left in a corner and faithful, he was in some respects i mean he always looked after her, but then, the next one was dora, dora moore. >> the surrealist girls who was -- who had been -- she had been a mistress of various surrealist monsters who sort of at all her all about depravity and everything else, so she was a fine -- when picasso first of all picked her up he had seen her in cafe fleur and black gloves on and using a knife and trying to stab the table between her fingers, and sometimes missing. and he found this so weird watching her do this in the cafe neuro, she was masochistic and part you go slav and partly french and .. i was extremely fond of her but very neurotic and more or less destroyed by picasso and she went to a psychiatrist and ultimately

recovered and became a religious maniac, but that was -- so, francoise comes along who is the first sort of rational, well educated extremely bright, new, sorry, francoise comes along and she was a whole, new pays in picasso's life in that she was so intelligent and sensitive and well educated, and so his life was transformed, and was -- and the result is this fantastic group of works. >> rose: ten years. >> yes. >> rose: a dialogue between them. >> and the dialogue between them, and i think it is one of the great phases of his life. and i think francoise was very, very, very responsible for that. >> rose: how do you feel when you walk through this gallery and see all of this together? >> it is extremely moving for me, because first of all, i saw most of those paintings and

sculpture being done, but they are together, there is a good group of them, so for me, it was really a very deep emotion to see them together. >> rose: it is so great to have you here. i asked you this beforehand but where is the next volume? are you prepared to put pen to paper soon? >> i am starting tomorrow. i mean, now that this is all right -- >> rose: you are distracted by all of these galleries. the gagosian. >> and now guy back to work on the book. >> rose: thank you very much. it is great to have you and see you, it reminds me of the wonderful time we had so many times in paris but also in putting together the last conversation we had. >> thank you. >> rose: there is a spirit, isn't it, that you see that is just wonderful. >> it is astonishing, and heartwarming. and your talent here is so self-evident. >> rose: thank you both a remarkable exhibition that you can see, it is at the gagosian gallery in madison avenue in new

york and runs until june 30th, 2012. june 30th, 2012. you do not want to miss it as you can see. a sense of what went into these paintings and the times that they reflect and the people and the passion of the people they r they reflect. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org