[man speaking indistinctly] get your hands off me. get your hands off me! father? [engine starts] captioning made possible by acorn media next time on foyle's war... there were three of them. move it! i challenged them to stop... don't move, we're armed! they refused. come on! so i opened fire. [gun shots] i'm suspending you from duty, pending investigation. what are you talking about? brookfield court... a haven for the sensitive and artistic. it's a big place, and they've sort of turned it into a guest house. guests is one word for it. well they're cowards, all of them! just hiding from the war just 'cause they can afford it. the suggestion i do anything against defense regulations is ridiculous. all over europe, young men laying down their lives for this war.

matthew gets himself shot in the back... for stealin'. barnes and noble is pleased to support foyle's war on public television. experience nook color, the readers tablet by barnes and noble. books, newspapers, music, games and hundreds of apps. in our stores and at bn.com. the entire foyle's war series 1 - 6 is available now on dvd for $149.99 plus shipping at acornonline.com/ptv or call 800-929-3759.

interviewer: so what made you decide on the second world war as a background to it? because that of course, is classed as period and period is really much more expensive to do than other things which might have countered against your idea of being accepted... anthony: well there aren't, yes... i mean it was difficult and dangerous to go the period route. i do remember when we did say second world war eyes glazed because it is a terribly expensive and difficult thing to do. um, i had decided first and foremost that i had spent so long, you know i wrote a great many episodes of midsomer murders, and as much as i loved that show... still do. um, i felt that ll the work and labor that went into writing the scripts and producing and making them all they ended up coming to... all they boiled down to was, was you know, the butler did it, the vet did it, the doctor did it... that's it...

and i was very keen to see if the detective genre could be used to just write about something more general than it's own inward world of murder. and it seemed to me that if you put a detective series against something really big, something major, second world war for example, you would then have very interesting balance, where actually the murder would become almost the least interesting thing going on. when england is about to lose the war and dunkirk is happening and the german's are going to invade any day now, as in the first episode,the german woman, who gives a damn that a body has been found in an english country house? so that was, that was t-the impetus and the idea of doing it. why the second world war? well you say it's period, i never thought of it really as period in sense of it's not ruffians and sort of horses and swords. it's still a very recognizable, modern time. these are still murders that are use telephones and radio communications and cars. so it is in a sense modern in one way, b-b-but still period in another. and i shied away, or tried to persuade the network center this wasn't really period.

that said of course, its, um, and it has been enormously difficult. you know every single shot you know you block out yellow lines, you have to block out sign posts, you have take out satellite dishes, um, uh... interviewer: double glazing... anthony: double glazing. um, of course there are wrong sorts of windows. and of course the war destroyed so many buildings, that, um, trying to do war time london... for occasional shots is almost impossible. that incidentally is why i decided to settle on the south coast. i realized that london would be just an impossibility to do. interviewer: you've said that there is nothing more exciting for you than a new idea, so how excited did you get when you suddenly thought "gosh i think i'm on to a winner here"? anthony: well i didn't think that i was on to a winner until the things were shown. i mean on of my favorite quotes of all time is william goldman in the book adventures in the screen trade "nobody knows anything" and i always think that true. when you're writing a show, when you're producing it, when you're making it, when your... even up to the days it's transmitted nobody really knows anything. i think i got the first buzz of excitement when michael kitchen agreed to do, to play christopher foyle. getting an actor of that caliber and someone who is in a way untried, or unseen rather, in the sense of carrying

a whole series on his own shoulders, and the fact that he accepted and agreed to do it gave a first buzz of "hey we could have something very special here." and then of course as the series was shown on television and the public came behind it, uh, there was a fantastic sense of excitement and of achievement. because of course, one of the things that happens, in this country in particular, is when anything new happens the press and really variate other people are waiting to knock it down, uh, rather than try and support it. and to realize that you've done it, and you actually have done something and done it not cynically either, this wasn't some sort of show that was bolted together to make money. it was a show that we believed in a-a-and to, and when something you believe in actually works it is a wonderful feeling and of course we are very happy. interviewer: did you have a vague idea that you wanted michael kitchen to play the part when you started writing it? did you have somebody in mind or were you writing it with a completely blank canvas? anthony: well you first you have to remember that when a writer writes a piece of television he is often the

last person to get involved with casting, that has certainly been true in my case. um, i-i-i-i don't really have a great deal of involvement in it. uh, i'm not even very good at it. i do only remember that once the first script had been written and we were casting around for who would play it, there was a list drawn up and michael's name was very much the first name on that list. um, sort of if only sort of feeling, you know, if only we can get him. um, i therefore, i can't say that i had written the part specifically for him. but again it's interesting historically the first episode, the german woman, was written a year before the other three were made. this is because i, the network were originally going to put it out as a pilot but as it happened they re-commissioned and it went out with all four. so creating the character, a lot of that work happened in the year after the first one had been written. when michael had come to the table as it were and brought a great deal of ideas, and thoughts and approaches with him. and so he was instrumental in making christopher foyle. uh, and christopher foyle really was fully born after the first episode.

interviewer: did you find the way you wrote the next three was actually slightly different to the way you thought you might write the three once michael kitchen was on board? anthony: i think whats interesting about looking at the 4 films together is how very different they all are. i mean the first one is quite a light hearted, in some ways, i mean it does have the internment story which is more serious, but basically the murder in it is quite, uh, it veers towards a midsomer murders territory. then in the second one you're suddenly into this, uh, very dark anti-semitic fascistic world of the black shirts, oswald mosely and all that. then the third one is again different and the fourth is actually quite a light hearted, um,and cheerful episode in many ways. they're very very different films. the development of them was, i-in a way accidental, unplanned. i mean we were working under a certain amount of pressure to get them done and as i've said, michael was coming up with ideas that were shaping the way his character would work and i suppose that's a through line and i guess all the actors brought ideas to the table that had to get incorporated.

but, uh, i-i-i-i-it, it wasn't planned mechanically as it were. i-i-it just grew. interviewer: so how did you come up with the name christopher foyle? anthony: um, well, that was of course the, that is always the most difficult thing to do to get the title right. when we pitched it, it was called the blitz detective. i'm very glad we dropped that, or that i knew at the time that it was only a working title. um, and i-i-i-i knew that it was going to be somebodies war because you talked about how was your war. you know that's something one says about the 40s how was your war and uh, it seemed to me that there was a slight double play there, but foyle's war, this persons war, own personal war, in this case is war against crime as much as anything else. as for the name foyle himself, i was doing a lot of research and buying a great many books and i nearly always buy my books at foyle's.

>> rose: we begin with a look at college sports in general and also specifically penn state where there's serious charges of child abuse. joining me, taylor branch, joe nocera, the columnist in for the "new york times," jon we are time is the senior writer for "sports illustrated." >> the ones under indictment are overseers. they run a very professionalized sports sysm that earns billion tens of millions of dollars at every unitff the lab and talent that is highly rare a sacrifice of these athletes and

the athletes get no money and they have no say. they have no civil rights. they have no right of due process, no right of counsel. you want come forward because u see something terrible happening in your university and you're a scholarship athlete, you can be out onyou're without... with no recourse. so there are no checks and balances in this system. it concentrates all the power in these university officials who tom to believe like idols that i deserve these millions of dollars. i must be doing it not on the players. so to me the greatest thing i've seen at penn strait the stories of the ad hoc seminars going on in classes, how did this happen? how did this happen here? how is college sports organized? how should it be organized? because that is an education should take place at universities that doesn't. >> rose: from college sports to a look at a great public space here in new york city called the highline. we'll talk about how it came into existence with amanda burden, chair of the new york

city planning mmission and head of the department of planning, diane von furstenberg, the great designer and major contributor. joshua david co-founder of friends of the highline alo with robert hammond. >> one of the most extraordinary things about it is that it's elevated it went for a mile and a half connected three manhattan neighborhoods and when you walk on it you're floating among the roof tops but you're still low roof tops, just 23 feet in the air, b youe still connecd to the streets. and the plants. it's a magical garden in the sky and it's planted to be this linear ribbon that goes for one mile and a half and you can walk on it without coming in contact with a single car. so it's a connector, a wil dynamic landscape like no other. >> rose: a look at college

sports and also the penn state case as well as one of new york's new miracles, the high line, when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> the child molestation scandal at penn state has rocked the nation. it also raises important questions about how such abuse can take place under the roof of one of america's most added a mired and respected football programs. who is to blame and what can be done to preevents is a topic occurring under consideration for universities across the country. taylor branch is a pitzer prize winning historian. he writes about college sports and its problems with governance in "the cartel: insid theise and imminent fall of the n.c.a.a. " joe nocera is a columnist in

for the "new york times". he's written three pieces in the last weeks about the penn state scandal and the fall of joe paterno. john wertheim co-wrote this week's cover story of supports illustrated called "the failure and shame of penn state." i beginith you. where are we in this story? >> i don't know what hour this is going to hair because i've never seen such a fluid story. by then we have... every hour brings a news twist. we have a lot of subplots, themes, and i've never seen a story like this. the university has talked very high mindedly it's time to move on, get together and learn from this and you want to say that's admirable sentiment but this is nowhere near done. we have a lot of litigation left to go. we have reports and everyday brings a new twist whether it's the accused inexplicably going on t.v. or more of these revelations and a coach claiming they called the police and the police refuting they heard from

him. this story is as fluid as a story can get. >> rose: what do we know about that specific point? he says he called the police and they say they don't have any record. >> part of the problem is that you have a campus that probably... this is in-depth but we have a campus police department that has certain... deputized to do certain things. off local police department and penn state is a state-affiliated institution and that means we don't a lot of open records. so we'll have to wait until the legal process steps in. we he dositions and so north. right now 's hard to get a paper trail: if the police say we didn't hear from him, there's not a lot we can do. >> rose: you write about a column about business. what attracted you to this story? >> what attracted me initially, what outraged med is grew up in a catholic household and my parents were devout catholics and so my parents were rocked by the sex abuse scandal that took

place in the catholic church. so then to discover that mr. paterno was also... is also a devout catholic and to discover further that the diocese of altoona johnstown where he goes to church has been dealing with child sex abuse problems since 1987, one of the very first diocese in the united states to be sued a suit they lost in 1994 and didn't en wind up paying until 2007, i lked to the lawyer whobrought that suit. he says several of the victims were from state college where penn state i and one of the victims was a suicide, committed suicide. so the community of state college not only knewhe consequences of child abuse, the consequences of a coverup, but they had a... almost a preview that the rest of the nation only got later. so yes, i thought to myself, how could it possibly be that somebody who has seen this and

then see it happen in their own institution could turn its back on it. how could it be. >> rose: your answer is? >> well, my answer goes to some of taylor's great reporting in the atlantic and in his book which is that the... the n.c.a.a.... the student... quote/unquote student athletes are... it's an injustice what takes place. the rules, the regulations, the fact that they don't even have their scholarships fully paid for. the fact that they can't even make a phone call home on a university telephone without being in violation of n.c.a.a. rules. the fact that if their parents die they can't go to the funeral because they can't afford it and no one can give them noun do it. it's a daily injustice that coaches have to turn their... avert their glance from on a daily basis. so, yes, this is a bigger version of averting your glance. but if i had a... if i have one theory about why they would do

this, that would be my theory. >> rose: becau sports is god at a university? >> it's particularly god at penn state. someone sent me an e-mail saying the culture of penn state in sports is a kind of religious fanaticism. >> rose: here we go. i want you t see this at home. this is the "atlantic" "the shame of college sports" by taylor branch. it started out as a 6,000 word piece or something? >> it was supposed to be. it swelled up a little more. >> re: like 30,000. it's a book now. so link these two things together. what was your... what the conclusion here about college sports and how do you link that to what happened in penn state? >> here's how i link it. the conclusion of this, it was the shame of college sports before penn ate and the reason it was shame i because i argue we need to refocus our whole notion about what scandals are because the n.c.a.a. tells me what scandal is when an athlete sells his jersey or gets a discounted tattoo. >> rose: these are specific cases. >> on these cases and we all get

up... the sports reporters and everybody go nuts and says that's terrible, it's a dirty program. i'm saying that the focus of the scandal ought to be the way the system is set up andt's set up for exploitation and you cannot justify this amateurism which is the heart of it in law or an way else. it takes... the athletes have no vote, they have no due process rights, they are made paw pors and impoverished and they have no power. and all the power is concentrated by this system and the money right in the officials that are indicted and are dismissed at penn state. it creates an idol not only out of the sport but the system for all kinds of exploitation. not only of the athletes but, as we now tragically see, small children. the system is set up for exploitation. if we don't go to the root of it and have an overhaul and have a new education on how to do... structure college sport... my pot is that penn state is egregis because of this... >> rose: because tre's so many

victims. >> because of e victims and it'sexual abuse. but it's not that unusual in the status of the idol of sports and the concentration of power among adults who have everything to do to keep the system the way it is because they have corraled all the money and influence. and that's true at ohio ste, that's true at alabama, that's true at texas. that's true of all the big sports programs. penn state is not that unusual, although i'm not saying that they all have sexual predators running around there. but their system is set up on exploitation and if you foster e kind you can't be terribly shocked to see others. >> rose: and what are you recommending as the change that ought to take place? >> basically like the olympics. the olympics were amateurs for 100 years, they gave the athlete a 20% voting stake in all the olympics committees, they're now professionalized, they're more healthy. we need to let the college players have a stake in this. they have a seat at the table. we need to acknowledge that amateur schism a sham and bring

the players and the university and the other students and faculties who've abdicated their roles all together and say how are we going to have a new business plan for college sports and a debate about whether we can make big-time sports and quality education co-exist. we haven't even hadhat debate. >> rose: but if you make these changes that yore suggesting having to do with... some say doing away with amateurism and all of that, paying the students to come play, right? >> right. >> rose: payingoung men and women to come pla athletics. >> you don't have to pay them. you just don't have to prohibit paying them. it's a cartel that says you cannot pay them. >> rose: all right. so what does... what's the primary opposition? who objects to that idea? >> rose: sentimentalists and the coaches. instead of having $4 million coaches they'll be lucky to be $1 million coaches and some of the money will go... >> rose: in terms of salary and endorsements they get from these products. >> i just found out there was a coach at oregon who got an extra

$600,000 because he had a percentage of the ticket sales into the stadium. there are hidden deals... you mentioned this whole thing about lack of transparey. >> rose: part of the thing about joe is the football team brings the alumni to give noun the university so they have put football and basketball on a pedestal for what it does for a university. >> everybody's afraid. i mean, look at what's happened at the univeity of miami. donna shalala, the predent of the university of miami, is disgraced w because the university program has been found to be basically corrupted by this guy in jail who was a booster running a ponzi scheme who was providing prostitutes for players. what's the right thing to do in that situation? shut down the football team and show that the... it's a university with a football team attached instead of a football team with a university attached. but she can't do that. there's too much money at stake. >> rose: her trustees won't let

her do that? >> her trustees probably won't let her do it. it's not like the 1920s when robert hutchins, president of the university of chicago... and chicago has the number one team in the country at that time. famously said "we have a scandal here, the right thing to do is shut down football. we're going to shut down football." they can't do that anymore. >> rose: look what you wrote "for penn state to reclaim the moral high ground it needs to do five things. announce it will not participate in a post-seas bowl game this year. second, discipline the riders. universities cannot allow students to rampage destructively d immorally without consequences. thd must promise not to use its status as a state institution to shield itself from the inevitable civil lawsuits that will be brought by those allegedly abused by jerd the former paterno system coach. penn state should establish a compensation fund. five... five. penn state should announce it will cancel the 2012 football

season." now what's the response to that? i'm not the most... i'm not going to state college any time soon. i'm not the most pular person state college in pennsylvania. >> rose:hat would this do to the future of the football program? peoplewill constantly read this and say remember s.m.u. >> my answer to that is so what? it's very true that after s.m.u. came back from its ban it has never been the same. it's never been the power that it was before. you know what? my answer to that is that's okay. that's okay. it is a university. a university is supposed to inspire students and it's supposed to teach people proper moral choices. okay? and i... the coach of nebraska for crying out loud said after the game on saturday "this game should not have been played." that's what he said. >> rose: nebraska beat penn state. >> yes. and he was right. the right thing to do for penn state on saturday would have been to forfeit the game. that's what got me thinking about this. watching that game and seeing

100,000 people not saying, yes, they had a moment of silence for the victims but it was really about isn't it tragic that our great coach paterno has been forced to resign? isn't this terrible what's happened to our team? an entire cmunity has made the wrong moral choice. >> rose: what's happening at penn state about those peoe who in a sen are protesting on behalf of paterno? >> that was an interesting reaction. the outrage when paterno was let go was exponentially as astounding. where was the rioting when these allegations first surfaced? wh you go to penn state after this game on saturday, they have an announcement in 45 minutes the basketball team will be kicking off its season. admission is free! go on over. this whole university is based on the football team. this is not the university of chicago. this football team underwrites the whole athletic department

and it's the identity of the school. before the football team got good this was a branch campus in the middle of pennsylvania. this university is tied to this football program. >> rose: so joe paterno put penn state on the map. >> he's the mayor, the king. joe paterno is penntate. so this is the football team that defines the school and there's a pater familias with paterno. what that sool has been through in the last ten days is unthinkable. you had me atthe first four points, seemed very reasonable but i tnk consequences... this is a completely different realm than punishing riders. but you realize that? >> i understood was an outliar position but i thought somebody should say it on the table. are you a university or a football team? make up your mind.

>> i keep hearing that. this was a football prram with a university appended to it >> is the consensus that paterno had to be fired? is there less protest as they learn more and more about this. how could they not have known? >> well, that to me is just where this fails any credility >> me, too. >> it strains credulity. he's a notorious note taker. keep in mind, the guy runs the town, the athletic director played for him. you can't exaerate his prominence here. his number one lieutenant was subject to this investigation, that was 100 page police report, a written report. >> rose: when? >>'98. a 100-page police report that went to the desk of the local prosecutor. joe paterno, notorious micromanager, doesn't know his top lieutenant is being investigated for this? it fails the smell test. that's what's interesting about this story is that these truths are going to come out eventually and when people say what's his legacy? it's premature to answer that.

should he have been fired? let's wait because it's a dangerous position to take a defined stance today. >> rose: i agree. but aren't we also saying that it's going to point at a lot more people than... a lot of people had to know to have a whole instition cover these thgs u there were deals, there was an arrangement made, that was resignation, he's still got keys to the locker room. there are lots of people who had to know about this and the coverup as we learn in watergate is where you learn informion and two of these people are indicted for lying and, you know it... as the court process goes forward, they are inevitably going to be pressured to reveal other people. >> rose: and what was the foundation about? >> well, this was a foundation that sandusky had founded in 19... he being the defensive coach, the accused, in 197. it was to help at-risk children. the details are vague but help at-risk children in central pennsylvania and by all accounts did a lot of good for a lot of people and there are a lot of

ties between the foundatioand penn state and the conspiracy theory is that this foundation was set soup he would have access to these children he could groom who were particularly vulnerable socially. but what the foundation did is when he leaves this job in '99-- very suspiciously, this is one of the most prominent assistant football coaches in the country, abruptly resigned and he says "i'm going to work on second mile, i'm going to leave for my foundation." and that seemed to wash with most people. well, he's had this foundation for 20 years. i've and seen the good work they've done. and he goes off to this foundation. so far every single kid mentioned has had a rationship with this foundation. clearly this was sort of how he established these contacts and groomed these kids. but the foundation is anotr area of e story that when we talk about names coming out and who knew what when, boy, i think that foundation will loom large. >> rose: a lot of notable people supported the foundation. >> including penn state. >> and didn't a judge as well?

she refused herself because she had... >> she didn't. that came out later. >> rose: has paterno said anything? >> it's noneny because at first he sort of clearly had these university talking points. then there was a rift where he said look, i'm getting hammered, i need to save myself. on wednesday, 72 hours into this he said "this is one of my great regret, i should have done more." which from a liability standpoint is quite damming damning. he hired his own publicist, a dee see political operative to come help m. and he's had a couple of these press conferences on his yard. he's had his sons involved and what he's said has been very interesting. it hasn't been much but what he said has been interesting. clearly the came a point where he said "m getting hammered, i can't deal with the university talking points, i have to speak from the heart." and a few hours late her'd lost his job. >> rose: he expected to be able to resign at the end of the year? >> exactly. and he sort of made this unilateral announcement that i'll be retiring at the end of the year and three hours later

the trustees said no you don't. >> rose: some supreme criticized you by saying this was a plantation. college sports ilike a plantation. >> it is like a plantation in the sense that these athletic officials all... the very ones at every unirsity who are under indictment are like overseers, they run a very professionalized sports system that earns billions, ten of millions of dollars at every university and off the labor andal tlaent is highly rare and sacrifice of these athletes and they get no money and they have no say. they have no civil rights, they have no right of due process, noright of counselnt if you want to come forward because you see something terrible in your university and you're a scholarship athlete you can be out on you're with no recourse. so there are no checks and balances in this system. it concentrates l the power in these university officis who

come to believe, like idols, that i deserve these millions of dollars. i must be doing it,ot only the players. so to me the greatest thing i've seen at penn state are the stories of the ad hoc seminars going on on... in classes. how did this happen? how did this happen here? how should college sports be organized because that's an education that should take place at universities. i wish it were going on at every school. >> are there model programs which are successful at college athletics and the same time are able to have an environment that is not like using players? >> unfortunately penn state was one until now the only other one i can think of is stanford. i think stanford is widely upheld as a place where scholarship and education and many, many... feel it is most varsity teams and high caliber

teams. >> i talked to shane batier recently. >> rose: of duke. >> another esteemed program and he said i got a good education at duke but even at a place like duke there are certain majors you can't take that you may want to because they interfere with practice. you still have to get up at 5:00 in the morning during the summer to prepare for the next season. you are a professional, you're just not getting paid as one. >> rose: and shane batier thinks college athletes should be snad >> he absolutely does. >> every pro-athlete i ever talked to did and they all hate their universities because they say when i get to the pros i'm doing the same thing i was doing there except i'm making millions. >> one of the reasons you have these petty scandals at places like ohio state andmiami is it because it breeds such cynicism. the players see all the money that would otherwise go to them go to every other part about. the coach makes $5 million so they think to themselves yeah, i'm going to sell my ring for a tattoo.

>> the reason it's a petty scandal is because the n.c.a.a. rules define it as a scandal. not the way the system is. and that to me... if there's one thing penn state can do it's to roe focus one the scandal is and how to organize college sports because penn state has a lot in common with other programs. >> rose: you have suggested that penn state does not have... i think the words you used were the... does not have the character to make the necessary changes to restore its... >> i probably... >> rose:... moral spine was the word you used. (laughter) >> i kind of said that, didn't any. >> rose: yes, y did. you know what i think? i think the only thing wrong with that stateme is that i only applied it to penn state. if you had a scandal at ohio state, if yohad it at the university of texas, if you had it at any big time college

sport... >> rose: tell me what you would like to see. what would be your ne system for college sports? >> i can't divulge that charlie. >> rose: (laughs) >> and the reasons because i'm in the middle of writing a... i have a scheme. >> rose: oh, you're holding back for us here at the table? >> i'm trying to build on taylor's story and i'm trying to take the next step. okay taylor has brilliantly and... >> rose: chapter and rse with the problem. >> chapter and swlaers the problems are. okay, let's fix it. let's fix it. >> rose: off solution to it as well. is your solution different? >> i believe i have a scheme of how to pay the players without breaking college athletics and making it less hit critical, more honest and more sensible and also treats the athletes not only in terms ofay but allows them to get an education for those who don't go on to the pros. i think i have this figured out. sorry america, i can't divulge

it just yet. >> rose: self-censorship here the table. >> i was at the harvard club. and e harvard business school had aorum... >> rose: about college sports? >> more specifically than that. how do we define a fairer business plan fo college sports than the n.c.a.a. they basically said that they wanted to undertake the same task because it's a practical problem and that the n.c.a.a. is bankrupt and failed and they'll never do it. >> tell them to read my story. >> rose: when is the story coming snout >> as soon as joe paterno dies down a bit. >> rose: so you want to put some distance between the specifics? >> it's hard to say here's how to fix college sportshen you have the specter of child abuse hanging over head. >> rose: tell me more about this guy named mcqaerry. >> well, this was local boy makes good. this was not some random former player, this was someone that

grew up in state college, played high school football with sandusky's sons, nerve town knew him. his father was his health care executive who works for a health care facility that has helped financially he played on the penn state team, he was a quarter back, he was a graduate assistant and it's question of who knew what when but in 2002 according to the grand jury report he's in the locker room and witnesses this... >> rose: a sexual act. >> a horrific sexual act that he later testifies about. he's come in for a lot of criticism. >> rose: and the university put him on leave for some reaso >> well, this was recently after the paterno firing. but one thing is interesting coming across the clips and it sa "mcqaerryho bke up a knife fight between players."

>> it's suggested the reason nothing dpra gnat i can happened is because the players didn't want to make trouble for paterno. not from from paterno but for paterno. protective of joe paterno because he was a god. >> this was a graduate assistance which is the plebe, the lowest level of this coach hierarchy. and the theory i hed was similar which is that when you're at this level loyalty is number one and you can't do anything without your superiors signing off on that. i don't buy it. if it's an n.c.a.a. violation you may look the other way. if it's the rape of a 50 something-year-old man and a ten-year-old boy i don't think you're going to derail your career by intervening. i don't think anyone will... >> rose: but the point is not that you will, but why didn't he? >> again, he claims that he's got a story and he can't wait to tell it and he went to his dad and paterno and everybody discharged their duties. >> rose: and paterno said what he did was told the athletic direct snor >> he told his superior.

terestingly, paterno is not a senior staff official even though he for all intents runs the place. his superior was the athletic director who played for him. paterno was the previous athletic director. and what i think interesting. clearly in this game of telephone, by the time it reaches the president it's not as severe as it apparently was. >> rose: why did they fire the president? >> well, that's an interesting... i think the president really dug himself in trouble. when this first came out, the president said "i pdge my unconditional support to these two staffers that were indicted." unconditional to me means under no circumstances will i retreat from this sition. you ha two of your employees who are implicateed not only on these perjury charges in an act that involves child rape and you're giving them unconditional support? and then the trustees-- 10% of which played football, by the way... >> you can't... the echo of nixon saying "i support haldeman and erlichman..." $it reminds me

of that. >> rose: the way the story unfolds. >> without kids. watergate at least didn't involve kids. >> thank goodness. >> because you're good at this kind of thing, tell me what you think of joe paterno. in the context of his life, in the context of what he's done end it here. >> i think ultimately hellowed both hitz power and his image as a quote/unquote great n to affect his behavior and go to his head. in 2002, people were calling for his resignation when this event... when this act took place and he was fighting for his job at this pticular moment >>ut not because of this. >> no, because he had... he had two seasons losing records and he was 75 years old. absolutely, absolutely. i... you know there may have

been a time when he was in his 40s and 50s when he really was a pristine coach and did everything right. >> rose: he was vince lombardi. >> but he's the personification of the old sayin "absolute power corrupts absolutely." and i really think that is what happened over the course of this very, very long career. >> rose: and what do you think of sandusky beyond... >> that i don't know. if thellegations are true i think he has an illness in addition to having committed crimes and i think the notion that he would set up a foundation so that he could find young boys is beyond the pale. >> it really is beyond the pale but we need to... i'm not making any accusations here but we need to remember that every university that recruits has ancillary organizations to reach out to young people. that's the life's blood and there are all kinds of camps and coaches run these things and in the course of my investigation i

talked to lots of mothers who said that their 10th grade daughter who is a lacrosse player was pressured to go to coach so and so's summer camp because that's the way to get your scholarship. the outreach into youth is a pervasive aspect of all big-time college sport. this is a different foundation but it's similar phenomenon. >> rose: this is something called a e-book. >> i can't even read my ownook because i don't have a kindle. (laughs) >> rose: this is what we call a magazine. >> yes, old-fashioned. >> rose: joe wertheim "the faure and shame of penn state" written with david epstein. also "the paterno legacy, can't get it back." a painful and ongoing process, that's what it is an ongoing press. thank you. thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: tonight we're going to talk about the high line in new york city. it's one of the great public

spaces in the united states. joshua david and robert hammond first met in 1999 at a manhattan community board meeting. on the agenda: what would be the fate of the abandoned elevated runway. while many supported its demolition, david and hammond saw the high line as an important icon of new york history. the two had zero experience in urban plan organize development but joined forces and started a grass-roots movement to rescue it. in 2009, their ten-year dream transformed the forgotten railway into an urban oasis. the "new york times" calls the high lineourney something of a new york fairy tale. its second section opened earlier this year. paul goldberger has called it surely the most important addition to the public realm of new york in this century. david and his new book high lines new york city's park in the sky and tells the story. joining me now, amanda burden, chair of the new york city planning commission. is she was an early champion of the project and saw potential of what the highline could be.

diane von furstenberg, she has contributed $2535 million to the high line project as part of the diller von furstenberg family foundation. joshua david, co-founder of friends of the high line and robert hammond also co-founder of friends of the high line. i am pleased to have them. they are my friends here. and this is a wonderful, wonderful public space that people who come to new york want to see it, walk on it and experience the experience of being there. why is that? why do people so love this place? what is magical about it? >> one of the most extraordinary things about it is it's elevated. it runs for a mile and a half connected three manhattan neighborhoods and when you walk on it you're floating among the roof tops but you're still... low roof tops, just 23 feet in the air. but you're still connected to the streets. and the plas. it is a magical garden in the

sky and it's planted to be this linear ribbon that goes for a mile a a half and you can walk on it without coming in contact with a single vehicle. so it's a connector. it's a wild dynamic landscape like no other. >> rose: you can see the river, street beneath you. and you're two stories nigh the air. >> exactly. >> rose: what caught your attention about it? why was it special for you? >> well, 12 years ago i started my company again and i decided to move... i found this wonderful little carriage house on west 12th street and i bought it and everyone thought i was crazy and what are you doing in this nehborhood? it's disgusting and smells bad and it's awful. but i followed my guts and i did it. and then when you move in the neighborhood what you do is you

meet your neighbors and so we met our neighbors and we started raising funds to turn the neighborhood into a historical ighborhood and then i met those two guys and they had this dream. none of us ever thought this would happen. but we wanted to believe it could happen and we dreamt it but now it exists and it's the most... and to this day i cannot believe. i lk on it and people are lappy and they come and they thank you and it's just the most beautiful thing that we... actually, it happened so fast, we thought at the time it would take forever but at the end it... >> rose: it's there now. you've done much of what you didn't believe possible and certainly the time of 9/11 you didn't believe possible. take me back to the beginning.

what happened? u meet each other at a community meeting. >> i lived in the neighborhood and read an ticle that it was going to be demolished and i assumed someone would be working to preserve it and i could help out. found out no one was doing anything. we went to this community meeting. everyone was either... >> rose: d not know each other >> we just happened to sit next to each other and everyone was opposed to it. either they didn't care or they wanted to tear it down. so we ehanged business cards afterwards and decided well, maybe we should start something. >> rose: and then what did you? >> in the beginning it was very hard to figure out what exactly to do. in the first year or so we were just getting the lay of the land and trying to figure out the history of the structure and the possibilities. it was under the giuliani administration and they had already taken the position that they wanted to take it down. they didn't want to reconsider so ultimately we had to sue the city of new york under the

giuliani administration to stop the highline's demolition. so that was a lot... a big piece of our early years and the formative part of our organization was coming together to save it from the wrecking ball. >> rose: and the last act... one of the last acts of the giuliani administration was to order the demolition ( >> one of the fina days he signed a demolition agreement binding the city to demolition. >> and how did the photographer come into being and what role did he shea from >> we fell in love from the high mine frothe street, the steel structure in this this ruin. but when we went up there there was a mile and a half of wild flowers and it was aust position of the wild and the city but it wasn't open to the public. so we knew we needed to capture it. so we got a wonderful artist named joel stern felde to photograph it. in the course of 2000, 2001, he took pictures all through the year and published a book with us called "walking e high line. sglts that was ourirst fund-raising. we showed the pictures.

>> rose: what purpose did the pictures achieve? >> i think originallyhe purpose was you coul't... most people didn't know what was up there. you saw it from the street. their perception of it was... we loved it as this dark heavy metal structure but a lot of people didn't and they didn't see the beauty of the landscape. over the course of 20 years after the trains stopped running this incredible natural landscaphad grown up in the gravel ballast of the high line all by itself andt was really this symbol of the way pitch that kerr retake a massive industrial structure >> and make it romantic. >> and nobody could see it so jo's... >> so in a sense it's nature... i'm sorry. but it's nature which showed us what it could be. do you know what i mean? because nature took over. it was this railroad and then nature took over so it was very

romantic at th time. but so nature took it over and showed us what it could be and that's why the idea of a park. >> rose: the giuliani administration is no more and new york city has a new mayor, michael bloomberg. a chairman of the commission, planning commission and chairman of the department of planning. how did you hear from these guys? did they say "we need your help madam chair" or what? >> they took me on the highline before i got this job and i fell in love with it. but i had no power. but the first moment i got appointed by mike bloomberg as planning commissioner i said this is my project and priority. >> i'm glad you took the job. (laughter) >> you have to remember that most of e pele who lived in th area of the high line, this was an area of just auto repair

sand vehicle storage and it was really... except for the gallery district which was very strong it was a degraded area of the city. and most of the property owners there-- if not all of them-- wanted the high line torn down. >> they didn't think it was good for business. >> and they couldn't build on their property. as we went from property owner to property owner... you have to remember the high line was not owned by the city, was owned by see sex railroad... c.s.x. railroad. and they wouldn't give it to the city until every property owner signed on. it was my job as planning commissioner to convince the property owners to sign on. but they didn't have value for their property because it was unrneath the highline. so that's where we used an old zoning tool of transfer of development rights to gi them value for their property. so we rezone it had whole area and we saw that the highline could become the defining feure of a whole w neighborhood. this neiborhood of old auto repairs and it could be really a

magical place to live and to have the galleries so zoning became the tool to per situate the property owners to sign on. they dpped their opposition and we had a chance make this into an incredible park. >> you gave them air rights to build somewhere else or sell? >> on the avenues. they could transfer their property rights to tenth and 11th avenue and they were happy and that made the difference. and very carefully we zoned lot by lot, block by bt to make sure there was air and light that came on to the highline as these buildings were built out and some of the first buildings to be built was the frank garry building and all of a sudden every ark nekt the whole world was who was famous wanted to build around the high line so it's become an architectural destination as well. >> she had to sell this toy st to city council d sell you guys. what did she call you? dreamers? you don't understand these dreamers you won't understand

what's at work. >> it was incredible because people criticized us for that. i remember ourirst big cit council hearingwhere everything was stacked against us and the property owners that wanted to tearhe highline down they said "we can't... this is sort of a good idea but it will never happen. these guys are dreamers. that is pipe dream. >> every promoter, everyeal estate person wanted it down. out. now, of course, it's prime. if you he the highline, view of the highline enhances it. >> rose: real estate has gone way up if you have a high line view. >> since the high line was ne 2009 there have been 29 development projects worth $2 billion. so this investment in this park as yielded over and over again... >> rose: the city invested $150 million? >> about $150 million. has yielded $2 billion in developmenwhich is extraordinary. and beautiful development. >> let's talk about this in terms of the photographs and get

a sense for you at home as to whathat we're talking about here. tell me what this picture is. >> so the high line... some people thinkant s wa old subway ors an l, but it was fmeht line and it into manhattan and itld wca w serve the buildings in the neighborhood. bello that's the o lab... >> rose: the oursepof the high line was to allow meat packers to go up t to 34th street. >> and out through manhattan. you went underground and out of manhattan. but a lot of them were old food warehouses. >>. >> rose this is the second picture. >> that's one of joel's pictures taken in 2004. >> that's nature taking its case. >>ature showed us that it could be this beautiful>> green bbon. >> rose: what stage is this? this is what it was like before? >> that's about 2000, 2001. >> ten years ago. >> so this partf t high le still oks likehat. this is th third and final stretch of the high line at the e rast yards and if you

went the i te ulodaywot d still look very much like th.wo >> and that's an important point, the high line is not comptely saved yet. >> we have to thirds there. >> rose: two-thirds of the way there. what's the status of the third leg of this? >> robert what would you say in >> just this month we had really good news in that the city and the related companies have now... >> rose: related being real estate development companies? >> they're a company owning the last section of the line, they've agreed to preserve the entire high line. so now our job to design it and open it as soon as possible. >> but you comment there now because you and barry diller and the diller foundation has given $25r million to develop this third... >> well, we... no, we gave a little bit first. >> rose: ten million first? >> no, five and then ten and then the rest. the point is that other people gave money to andt's just

being... it's just been a love, you know? it's like... it's wonderful. last weekend it was 85,000 visitors. >> and you can't say enough about the designers because they meld it had old and the new and this incredible landscapeer has created a planting like you've ever seen in the whole world and that's what makes it magical and that's why people feel transported i think when they get up there uz s because of the plants and. >> but somebody was protecting us because when we opened the rst section, we opened it in april, may, and for some reason it rained so much that summer. it rained and rained and rained,

right? and the plants were growing and growing and growing. >> take a look at this. this is a... what am i looking at here? >> that'shere the high line goes over 10th avenue. it crosses over streets. a you can even see the statue of lib anywhere the distance. itis hard to see hit in the photo. >> this is, what? >> that's... hi tis theesign. w>>hi andtha the designers didt created these concretes pnkla that comb into the landscape. so it's almost like the nature is st of of cngwila a path back. rthe: is e planning commission overseeinglf al o o this as it being developed? >> we work veryselo cly as a team with t hloig lane l d we help with thedegndsian i got very personallol b invsevedauec i feel is pauonassie.at it's an incredible collaboration. many people are involved. >> rose: okay. tell me what this is. >> that's ranote.ot view of the landscape following the design. >> you can see peoplearound hav. >> and you can see thhow e walk

way melds into... >> rose: ou can also see the tracks in there. it's>>orthwhile... the tracks ve been put back to remind tpeleophat itle used to be an d railroad... it's so cleverly done. it's so cleverly done. >> all right. soe more time. this is a new slide. hat's near me. >> that's>>he von furstenberg sun deck. t rosisoshis r you sun sdmek ea >> yh.h, yea anthey are very hapn oap that sun deck. m i'sure they are. >> rose: it test mostpopular gathering spot on theine and it has a beautiful, beautiful water feature that skims water. >> and children put their feet in it. it's verynice. >> and the... >> st thactsen, too, which we opened that summer,ju that's tr sszee s st and you can seehe high ne goes rightju between ilbus.ng s.veryselo up. so it's vy use.rban veryntense. an d 'sit completely different ec fr.tion 1 andt' 1 i i just... different kn of p ntsand different kinds of ri exence. >> and full of s.isur.espr

and discovery,ou?know it's just beautiful. leop come... i mean, tlehe speak every language ere. i mean, people come... it's the number two tourist attraction in new york city. >> rose: that right? number two tourist asflax new york city. take a look at this. this is same thing seen from a different angle. >> this is one of my favorite buildings. it's calley h.l.al 223 and it. cantilevers a little over the high line and irediblebl architecture and just magical things that happen as you walk alg the highin lin you're always surprised. av and now we're going eav h whitney museum starting it. te: igel tohage tt in a mi tte >> okay. there aou a cple places e on cthg li tthliherehe design team has framehe t view of the street so when youoklo lo down.. it's almost like a epiec of theater or ballet onhe ttr see s below andor people on the street it framsit i people up in the park and turnsthemnt i i anotheo ..nta i tableau as well. people sit there for hours and wah what's going on.n.

>> rose: and this iss?hi t this is... >>hahica ts t'lled the cutout at 30th street where we removed the concrete and you can see the steel beneath you and it's actually... you're standing on steel greatings so you can see the cars zooming past underneath your feet. and it's a transition to the rail yards. that's rht at the e of what's oepened right n. >> rose:inally we havehis slide. >> that just shows the highline cutting through the orneighbhood. cutting through chelsea. ah nd witigthe w slew on the waterth because, you know we hav the river and... it's j hust vey peaceful. but it's urban peace. >> rose: you mentioned the whitney is coming down. >> we're going to have two major cultural institutions. you're going to have the whitney at the southern end of the high line and you're going to have a new cultural institution called the shed. so it's an adventure, a whole promenade that doesn't exist

anywhere like in the new york so you can walk from neighborhood to neighborhooto neighborhood through this magical landscape. rhett rhett it's also become a symbol for what cities can do around the world. the people come here looking to plicate... >> a lot. a lot of people are looking at this. >> because they're looking at old pieces of urban artifacts and they're looking in a new way that maybe you can keep them and not look don the old, maybe you can e them transform a particular location or part of a city that has been forgotten. >>. >> rose:ou believe passionately and deeply about public spaces. that is great example ofhat a public space can be. >> yes, and public spaces are so important to a city. it's really how you can measure the health of a city through its public spaces and how they're ed. we live a very dense city and we like that. we like people coming to the city and we like that kind of tensity. but you need the public spaces as sial gathering sces. places where it's very democratic.

where you can actually see other people. and people like to be where there are other peoe. that's what's so incredible about new york city. we have so many people coming to the city and that's where they can merge and blend and feel that energy of city life. >> rose: and bring the shoreline alive as well. all this i turning out like fabulous. like beyond expectation but there was a time in 9/11 in which you thought... >> it was like it was for evybody in new york city. a very difficult time. but for us i think we thought that the momentum that we were building was all taken away that this couldn't be a priority with everythinglse new york city has to face. but one of the things we pointed out is the that 9/11 brought a new focus on new york city, on urban planning on the way the city would develop in the future following 9/11 and all of that interest really helped us.

and people wanted to get involved in making the city a better place and this was achievable. it was much harder to say i can go down and be a part of the rebuilding of the world trade center but the highline was something people could actually get their hands on and be involved and make a difference so people rallied around that. >> but it's also the passion of these two guys. it's a passion. i think they coul have built anything. i think the highline just happened to be... (laughter) i think there's something so simple about their passion and so they are precise, they have focused. but they're not pushy or at least they don't show you that pushy. and they're just irresistible. and... isn't it? and blocks after block, all the blocks came out i remember the first meeting how are we going to do this and how are we going to do that. and then gradually it just happens. i would say that almost everyday

these guys had a good surprise. >> rose: all right. did you make her wait for an hour for your first meeting? >> well, someone told me amanda burden would love this project. so i called her up, told her to meet me on a corner. it was snowing i thought she's never going to show. she didn't show. i told her the wrong corner, s waited an hour in the snow. but then she came back another time and finally came up. >> and i fell in love with it and it changed my life. >> rose: because it's the thing that you're among the most proud for the things you've accomplished. >> if could play a par in leaving this as a legacy for this city, for mike bloomberg, for people to enjoy forever i will have done something that i could never equal in any kind of aspiration. it's the best thing i could imagine. >> rose: thank u.

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tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, our conversation with the legendary reggae artist jimmy cliff. he helped push reggae on to the world stage generation ago. next week, he has a new six-song e.p. called "sacred fire." we are glad that you have joined us. the conversation with reggae legend jimmy cliff, coming up right now. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley.

with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one co. . >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public tavis: pleased to welcome jimmy cliff to the program. he has been an influential force in the music business nearly 50 years. next year marks his 40th anniversary of the seminal album and companion movie, "the harder they come."

next week, he has a new six-song bp called "sacred fire." it is an honor to have you on the program. >> thank you. tavis: i love the title of that, "sacred fire." >> "sacred fire" are the secrets that i have kept secret over the years, things i have yet to do, things i have yet to accomplish as an artist. on another level, it is the secrets of my conneion as an earthman. and connecting my secret fire from my solar plexus to the earth. these are secrets that have been kept secret, and i am growing to understand these things. tavis: