>> rose: welcocome to our progr. to want, a conversation with the prime minist of israel, benjamin netanyahu, at the conclusion of a dramatic wee at the united nations inwhich the palestinians made an application for statehood with the security council. >> part of the problem is our cities are right next that state. not runs of kilomets of way, hundreds of meters away. our very lives are at stake. so obviously we should have an agreemt to give them... to have them recve a statend have us receive security and recognition. that's what you need. otherwise what they're saying is when they come to u.n. they say ok, give us a state, they say to the u.n., not so that we can tend conflict but so that we can continue it. if they have a state, okay, so

what do we do with the airspace? the airspace is all three minutes wide far jet do-to-cross in israel. tiny. six hours to cross the united states, three hours to cross israel, three minutes to cross israel by air, by jet plane. so what are we going to do? we're going to take this tiny airspace, chopt into two, give half to the palestinian state that is not yet at peace with israel? what are we going to do with airplanes landing in ben-gurion airport? we don't have yet peace. they can fire rocke at our planes coming in because they're circling of necessity above palestinian cities. you've got this whole array... can we go in hot pursuit after palestinian terrorists, hamas teorists who will opete from palestinian areas? these are not toretical problems. we left gaza, every square inch. we gave abu mazen, the palestinian authority, the keys to gaza. heas booted out to two seconds later by iran, iran's proxy hamas and we started having rockets falling on rael because we didn't wo out these details.

we gave them a state without working out the peace. we gave them sta without working out security first. we shouldn't repeat that mistake. we're prepared to have a peace in which the palestinians have a state, they're not prepared to have a state with peace. and with security. that's wrong. we should have both simultaneously and that's why i think it's right for president barack obama to stand strongly. >> rose: you brought him up. tell me what role the president has played because much has been made of a division between the two of you when you spoke to the congress and met with him and what he had to d when he... what he ant when he said that the negotiations should begin at the '67 borders. >> look, we may have some differences on this or that point, but to beonest, i think we're very close on the main thgs. he's given a very strong speech at the u.n. defending israel's right to defend itself, defending our tachment to the historical homeland of the jews,

which is something tt has been forgotten, certainly by president abbas. the security corporation is excellent and i think the... >> rose: he's played a positive role? >> yes. >> rose: there's no serious divisis between the prime minister of israel and the president of the united states on what ought to be done? >> i think that on the main things there's very strong... >> rose: where are the differences? >> we've had some differences on the definition of the borders, but that's something that will be worked out in negotiations and we agree that. >> rose: prime minister netanyahu for the hour. a program note: we've invited president abbas for a conversation and we hope we'll be able to arrange it with him very soon. tonight, netanyahu when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: benjamin tanyahu is here. he is e prime minister of israel. he has beeon this show many times. i'm pleased to have him here at this critical moment in the middle east peace process. welcome to the program. >> good toe you w you, charlie. >> rose: here is where, as we tape this on a sunday morning, the quartet has presented a proposal to the palestinians and to the israelis and the palestinians have not yet sponded to it and they say pre-a pre-conditn for them to resume negotiations, and this is a proposal for negotiations is, number one, clarity on the '67 borders and to settlements. you have said without a specific response to that request that you're prepared to negotiate anywhere any time.

correct? >> absolutely. negotiate anywhere any time. >> rose: wh no pre-conditions and everything is on the table? >> that's right. just do it. it's so simple yet they make it so complicated. here's the acid test-- and i say this to anyone who interviews me. i say chaie, if you now say to me are you prepared to sit down here and wait a day-- because that's all it takes from any part of the world-- for president abbas of the palestinian authority to come here and begin negoations now, now, around thisable without cameras, my answer is yes. i'm prepared to do it. >> rose: with no pre-conditions. >> with no pre-conditions. and if you want to get on with it, that's what we should do. we should stop negotiating about the negotiations and just get on with it. it's like the nike commercial: just do it. and i'm prepared to justdo it. >> rose: why does statehood... a request for statehood from the united naons by the palestinianset in the way of

negotiations? >> because it should be the result of peace. the palestinians want to a state without peace. we're prepared to give them a state with peace. >> rose: but is it you that should prepare to give them a state? is that what israel should be doing? >> part of the problem is our cities are right next to that state. not hundreds of kilometers away, hundreds of meters away. our verylives are at stake. so obviously we should have an agreement to give them... to have them receive a state and have us receive security and recognition. that's what you need. otherwise what they're saying when they come to the u.n. they say, look, give us a state, they say to the u.n., not so that we can end the conflict but so that we can continue it. if they have astate, okay... so wh do we do with the airspace? the airspace is all three minutes wide for a jet to cross in israel. tiny, six hours to cross the united states, three hours to cross israel, three minutes to cross israel by air.

by jet plane. so what are we going to do? we're going to take this tiny aipace, chop it into two, give give half to the palestinian state that is not yet at peace with israel? what are we going to do wi airplanes landing in ben-gion airport? we don't have yet peace. they could fire rockets a our planes coming in because they're circling of necessity above palestinian cities. can we go in hot pursuit after palestinian terrists, hamas terrorists who will operate from palestinian areas? these are not theoretical problems, we left gaza, every square inch, we gave abu mazen, the palestinian authority, the keys to gaza. he was booted out two seconds later by iran, iran's proxy hamas and we started having rockets falling on iael because we didn' work out these details. we gave them a state without working out the peace. we give them a state without working out security first. we shouldn't repeat that mistake. 're prepared to have a peace in which the palestinians have a

state. they're not prepared to have a state with peace and with security. that's wrong. we should have both simultaneously and that's why i think it's right for president obama to stand strongly against this... >> rose: why don't we just talk about... you broug him up. tell me what role the president has played because much haseen made of a division between the two of you when you spoke to the congress andet with him and what he had to do... what he meant when he said that the negotiations should begin at the '67 borders? >> look, we may have some diffences on this or that point, but to be honest, i think we're very close on the main things. he's give an very strong speech at the u.n. defending israel's right to defend itself, fending ourattachment to the historical homeland of the jews, which is something that has been forgotten, certainly by president abbas. the security cooperation is excellent and i think the... >> rose: he's played a positive role? >> yes. >> rose: there's no serious divisions between the prime

minister of israel and the president of the united states on what ought to be done? >> i think that in th main things there's very strong... >> rose: what are the differences? >> we'vehad some differences on th finition of the borders, but that's something that will be woed out in negotiations and we agree with that. we agree that we need the negotiations to... >> rose: everybody sayshe '67 borders with this adjustmenor that adjustment. is that what the prime minister says? >> well, the president said it's not going to be the '67 boers. >> re: he said but with some adjustments, he said '67 borders. i'm just asking... >> i'd like to have the end of the negotiations at the end of the negotiations not at the beginning. that's a wiser proach from my point of view as the prime minister of israel to negotte. but i think there's been areat closg of the ranks between israel and the united states i the last few months. i think it's... i think it's wrong to try to end run the negotiations, go around, detour the negotiations by going to get a state without giving israel the peace and security it deserves. and i think the right thing to do is to get back to the table!

just get back to negotiate. i talked to my base. you know, that's hard. i today them... i'm a likud prime minister. >> rose: right. >> and i said, look, i am calling for two states for two peoples. a demilitarized palestinian state that will recognize the jewishtate. with the necessary security arrangements. that wasn't easy for me to say. i've done it. president abbas, abu mazen, has yet to turno his se and say "this is what's going to happen." he can't utr the words the jewish state out of his mouth even though i spoke aboutthe palestinian state. >> rose: let me ask you something... >> i'm saying... just to make this point so i can roll this paper out. i think that i can deliver peace. i think the palestinians ar again making a terrible mistake. they're really acting out the immortal words whe they said the palestinians neverose

an opportunity to lose an opportunity. they have here a likud prime minister who's been ae to take this coalition, take the consensus of israel-- which i expressed in the u.n. the other day. >> rose: they also. >> and take that opportunity and make peace for god's sake. >> rose: they values foreign minister who's not likud who has some very different positions. you do. and people thi that he limits what you can do and that sometimes you're forced to be a local politician rather than a statesman. >> yh, well, so far the only one who's actually confronted his political base and said things that aren't easy is me! and we have a parliamentary system. we don't have a presidential system. th coalition can b toppled at any moment. but i've done andaid things-- including freezing the growth in new construction of settlements. that's hard. by the way, i did that with mr. lieberman, i did this with my other coalition partners and

they're a pretty tough crowd. i said to them "look, this is our movement for peace." i also said don't know where we'll be when i bring forward peace agreement with the palestinians. i don't know if we'll go to a plebiscite, i don't know if we'll go to elections. we can all voice our opinion once we have an agreement and you can all voice your opinions. but i think we owe it to the people oisrael to have the process in which we see if the palestinians give us the kind of peace we can live with and that's what's governing it. no coalition partner is preventing me from doing that. >> rose: former president clinton said the following thing, that it's much more difficultto get peace because you're now the prime minister. he said you're unwilling to accept the accord agreed on by your defense minister ehud olmert when he was prime minister. you e not willing to accept that... ehud barak and he said that the israeli population has changed because of immigrati and their demands are tougher

today than they were then. >> i'll tell you where i respectfully disagree with him. the point is what you just said. bill clinton knows better than anyone else that barak made an offer which arafat turned down. president bush, his successor could tell you that ehud olmert made an offer. >> rose: a are you prepare to be where ehud barak was? >> i think i put fward real parameters in both my knesset speech and my bar elan speech and my speech in the u.s. congress real parameters that unite the majority of israelis. >> rose: but the parameters are different from the parameters that ehud barack having to do with jerusalem... >> no, they're not. i want jerusalem a united city for sure. these are not pre-conditions for a negotiations. they're position in the negotiations. the final positions come out after a negotiation. i don't think it makes sense, i think it's just not wise, it's

even silly, to come forward and say well i'll offer this percent with a decimal point... >> rose: of land. >> of land. that's what the negotiatns are for. i don't hear abbas saying anythi. nothing! 's not offering anything! look, how long can i stay on the jordan river? talked to him for all of six hours. that's all you need to talk to me in the two and a half years that m prime minister. six hours! you know, have a centuryf con flikt resolve. six hour that's all you give? and i began... he said about territory and i said, listen, i understand that, mr. president. i want to know something from your side. everyday, every moment i rd those newspapers, those on edz, what israel has to give and what israel has to gi. how about what israel has to receive? how about security from areas we've been... >> rose: but before we talk about... >> can we get a long-term israeli presence along the jordan river? >> rose: is that essential for you? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> rose: so you are not prepared

to give up all of the west bank? that means you're not prepared to go back to '67. that was not part of '67. >> well, i'm not going to back to the '67 lines and president obama said as much. after all, israel gets to be the >> rose: are you saying that peace between israelis and palestinians will never happen as long as they're not israeli troops alonghe jordan river? >> they will certainly is to be there a long time st as there are american troops in germany r decades. just as there are american troops in okinawa and japan. just as there are american troops in south korea. nobody says that gmany, korea, and japan are not sovereign countries because there's a long-term american military presence there or that cyprus is not a sovereign country because there's a british air base there or that three african... independent african countries are notovereign countries because there are french troops there. it's possible to fashion in complicated areas where security is vital-- and it's less vital than in the countries i

mentioned than it is for tiny israel surrounded by the kind of enemies we have. we can work these things out! israel has legitimate security demands so that we're not attacked from the areas we withdrew from just as happened to us in lebanon and gaza and this is something the world can say to president abbas, be flible. >> rose: president abbas has told me and has said before they're prepared to see even nato troops along the boarder to help guarantee your security. they want to see a secure rael. is that an acceptable idea to the prime minister? >> you know, i discussed that with him, too. ani'll tell you what i said. said the pblem with international troops is no matter how well intentioned they are, they're actually have not stood the test. for example, we withdre from every square inch inlebanon under a guarantee o a beefed up united nations force. german naval presence. and it didn't work.

in oth words, when we withdrew hazard armed itself four times at it had before we withdrew. we had a european observer force in gaza. we withdrew from gaza. >> rose: so your answer is... >> it evaporated. >> rose: that's not an essential guarantee foyou, having international troops on the border. if you want israeli troops on the border of the jordan river. >> yes, sure. it's about ten minute's drive to jerusalem from there, you know? and what's going to prevent the areas we vacated being penetrated by a flood of weapons from iran: not nearly from iran through the sigh nye but from libya. deadly weapons that can reach not really ashkelon which is a few kilometers away. so here's the real issue. in other words, supreme to realize when you resolve this issue on the ground this... these pesky details of how

israel defends itself is something that w really have... i have to insist on. >> rose: there is an alternative bargain which is that israel is facing a more difficult time and ere ought to be more uency today to find peace because it's peace in the end that will contribute to a kind of circumstance that is in the interest of israelis over the long term. >> rose: i'll tell you what i accept and don't accept. we need to resolve the israeli palestinian conflict with the demilitarized palestinian state recognizing the jewish state. but i'll tell you what i don't accept. >> rose: what's this? >> see, i think that if for a piece of paper-- this is a piece of purple heart-- i give up, i forfeit the minimal requirement of security which are very tough and theye a required palestinian compromise. if i do that, i'll have a piece of paper left and no security, no peace. because peace can unravel. sinai usedo be the staging area for attacks from gaza.

now gaza has become the staging area for attacks on the sinai. and sinai is the part of egypt. >> the notion of a jewish state did that id as part of the negotiion me with you or was that also part of the negotiation that was conducted by olmert and conducted by barack? >> the answ is it came with all of them. they always raised it burr it began with lloyd george. >> rose: but they've been front and center of the relationship? >> it only means the jewish people dispersed throughout the lands has one and only jewish state wher any jew can go there. >> rose: but you seem to have put it more front and cter. >> you know why? because the palestinian leadership refuses to confront its people and say this is will be our state, palestine, and any palestinian can go there. we also want, they say, millions of palestinians to b able to go to israel and wipe out the

character... the democratic character... the jewish character of the state of israel. that's not fair, that's not right. and it's subsumed. it's coded language. theyay we recognize but not israel as a jewish state which means there are a million and a half non-jews there right now muslims and others, arabs and we'll get a few more million. >> rose: how will their life be different? >> we'll he the palestinian state in palestine which is w-free. that's what they said outrageously the other day. and we'll have israel, which has a jewish majority and palestinian minority but since we demand the right to flood israel with palestinians of palestinians we'll have two palestinian stat ultimately-- palestine and this palestinianized israel. that's the code word underneath. so you have to ask them a simple question, why n't you recognize theewish state? that's what the u.n. did in the partition resolution.

that's what harry truman did when he recognized the jewish state. that's what president obama said very movingly in the u.n. why not do it? stop walking around it. just do it. >> reporter: does tony blair, who's been part of the negotiation in a mediating role for the quartet, does that come up in his nversations? >> oh, yeah, all over the place. >> rose: do you want to occupy the west bank? is that something you want your state to do? >> no. i wanted to be resolved in a political solution because i don't want to incorporate the palestinians... >> rose: i mean, the failure of a two-state solution is not in the interest of israel. >> agreed. i n't want the palestinian population incorporated as citizens of israel or subjects of israel. so you have to live in their own state. i just want to make sure that state doesn't become another gaza. doesn't become another mini iran which could destroy the one and only jewish state. that's my concern. and i think i can deliver a deal

because what i s now represen... >> rose: the deal you think you can deliver what? >> it means first of all... >> rose: security and... not >> not only that. not only that. the territory y'all thing is tough. it's very tough. it's tough emotionally... >> rose: but you think you can deliver it? >> if you're flexible because most of the jewish population is concentrated in several blocks... >> rose: of settlements. >> but will need other tional interests. >> rose: what uld you be willing to give up? >> there you go, now we're down... >> rose: you're saying we want to take certain territory beyond if '67 borders so i'm saying what's your map look like? >> if we get down to negotiating security and peace and territory and the question of the end of the conflict and the palestinian refugees and so on, if you do all that then that's what we should be dog. we should be sitting out... exactly what we're doing now. sitting around... >> rose: trying to understand

where each is coming from. >> and the way you do it is you put... it's like preparing a good stew. you put all the ingredients in and youook it. simmers and you get something you can live with. we're not even in the kitchen. i'm sitting in the kitchen waiting. nobody's cing in. >> rose: as you know, the arab states have an initiative. >> yup. >> rose: in which they... once you do this you get security guarantees from them and you'll get recognition from them. that's a very positive endeucement for you. >> security guarantees from whom? from libya? from what? from syria? >> rose: king abdlaul is the one. >> i respect... >> rose: and the arab league. >> i respect... >> rose: those are the two things they said. >> i respect the sentiment beyond that initiative.

i'm not sure the arld world is that stable or unified these days. >> rose: ow so how has the arab spring changed your attitude about where israel is today and the difficulty of being israel in that neighborhood? >> i think we live in a very... in a convulsed area from the north africa right through pakistan and i think the ground is shifting because there's basically the challenge of modernity to societies that haven't modernized and there's deep frustration of hundreds of millions of people who see through 21st century technology the 20s... you know, the 20th century passed them by and they all demand their dignity. they want an end to corruption and they want to be enfranchised. >> rose: universal values is the word they now use. >> they would like it. the problem is they're going to be hard-pressedo get it. so you might very well have not

the democrats win out but the militant islamists who will come and at least say "well, at least we're not corrupt." sure they get corrupt quickly "we're not corrupt. we'll do this." i think that's a very great danger. >> rose: so when you look at syria and egypt and you look at libya, you're looking three states that you think the relationship from israel might be worse than it was? >> i hope it is better but i have to prepare for the worst, to and for that, because israel is so tiny. if israel was the size of france then we'd have less concern with our security because we'd hav more strategic depth. we're the size of... a little bigger than rhode island, for god's sake. >> rose: my sense is that you have always worried more about iran than you have worried about any missile coming from any adjoining peace of land. >> the missiles that are coming from the adjoining peace of lands are coming from iran, too. so it's a substantial threat with the nuclear weapons program they're developing but it also

places a mortal threat to israel by having the areas that we vacate whether in lebanon or gaza or potentially in the west bank if we're not careful with strategic safeguards. having these areas flooded with short-range missile which is then rain down on israel cities. so we have two security concerns >> rose: what can ever stop that? >> well, number one... >> rose: what is it you think will stop that possibility? how about a lg-term israeli military presence along the jordan valley that way we prevent the rockets from being put in. >> rose: so u want to encircle a new state o palestine? >> i don't want to encircle them but i want to make sure... >> rose: you want to beon all sides. >> i want to make sure that... you can bring in goods, you can bring in anything to gaza right now. their economy, by the way, has been growing some 20% in the last quarter. >> rose: you'd take that for israel wouldn't you? 20%? >> well, we're doing 5% which isn't bad. but our g.d.p. per capita is a little higher. >> rose: where you sit they're doing 2% as you know

>> we're not doing 2%. >> rose: no, the united states. >> o the united ates. well, you're 300 million people. so we're... from my point of view anything can go in, anything can go out except weapons and that's a legitimate requirement for an israeli prime minister. the convulsion in the middle east, the turbulence and instability that israel's security needs become greater i've always felt only peace we can defend but today our security reform is greater and i think the palestinians should fairly recognize it. in any case, i think anybody who orts peace should support my call they have to direct negotiation with these issues can be recognized and their issues can be raised. >> rose: is it your hope, for example, that if the palestinians refuse to... recommendation of negotiations starting immediately between palestinians and israelis that if they refuse to negotiaten the conditions they've said that

somehow that might influence the vote in the skoun soil there will not be nine votes to make it go forwardnd therefore the president will not have to veto >> i think the president has lobbied effectively... >> rose: do you think they'll have a lot o votes or it close? >> ihink it's close but no cigar yet. i don't know. >> rose: in a very difficult time we don't want to be an occupier. you want a two-state solution and you think you can... you have it within your ideas the ability to do it. on the question of refugees, how would you solve that issue? >> easy! palestinians go there, jews go here. >> rose: what out palestinians who have always come from land that is now israel? >> rose: well, how about israelis... whoubt jews who came from baghdad or came from... booted out from cairo, booted out from beirut. i'm saying the palestinians

can't turn back the clock 64 years. >> rose: so you're not willing to take them back. >> of course not. >> rose: so what's the arrangement you think will be acceptable on refugees? >> what's fair. >> rose: what's fair? >> what's fair is that the arab countries in 1948 after the u.n. partition resolutionnvade with us five arab armies. they call on their brethren to leave the... the palestinians to leave the land because it will take three day to wipe out the embryonic jewish state and then they can com back and take the spoils. that's how the refugees left-- the majority of them left. at the same... right after... it didn't work out that way. we didn't lose, we refused to die. but the aftermath of the same war, about an equal number of jewish refugees were kicked out from arab lands. we had abo 700,000 arab refugees leaving in 1948 and about 800,000 jews expelled from arab lands. in tiny israel one tenth of one percent of the arab countries without the oil wealth cornucopia, we absorbed these 800,000 jewish refugees that

were indistinguishable from anyone else. there are no refugees in israel, they're israelis b. the vast arab world keeps this thing alive, these refugees alive and in four years later the arabs come and say, hey, solve our problem, our side of the refugee equation that we created. it's not enough that you absorbed the jewish refugees, now absorb the great grandchildren of these arab refugees. that's wrong. it's morally wrong. >> rose: so you'reaying your soluon... you're saying all palestinians go to this new plainian state. >> sure. >> rose: and all israelis come... >> jew cans come. what's wrong with that? >> rose: what do you think they'll say? >> i think they should say yes if they want to really accept the jewish state. that's theode word of the jewish state. ifhey say we won't accept the jewish state, it's not because non-jews don't rights in israel. we don't want to change the character of israel. it's the only country in the world in the middle east where muslims have real freedom. >> rose: what do... you don't

want to be an apartheid state, either. >> not. that. >> rose: we just have a jewish majority. >> rose: and you don't want demographics that former prime minister shon... and former president olmert... >> that's why i want the solution. but i don't want them to change... i don't want to change the democratic nature of... >> rose: let me get to... >> i don't want them to chge the jewish nature of israelo the best solution is palestinians go there, anyone from the world they go there and jews anywhere from the world can go io israel and everybody joys in israel at least equal civic civic rights. >> rose: ve got to tell me how you would see jerusalem and are you prepared to go where ehud barack and ehud olmert were prepared to go in their recommendations to in first case arafat, the second case abbas? >> i have a different view. i view that jerusalem should remain a united city under jerusalem... under israel.

>> rose: a united cities under sgliz >> i'm not going to rea build wall... >> rose: mine from east jerusalem? a universal international city? >> i'll tell you why i say that. the only time it's been a universal international city is under israi sovereign. before that, in thousands of years... actually from 1500... from the seventh century when islam burst on to the scene, in all that time, the only time that the three great monotheist i can faiths-- judaism, christianity and islam-- have complete freedom of worship has been under israeli sovereignty since 1967. ery time... you know, there are all other periods somedy was barred. the crusaders barred the jews and the muslims. the muslims barred... you know. this is the first and only time and i wouldn't want the city to descend into a bitter environment of sectarianism. so that's my view.

>> rose: but you're prepared to negotiate on it. that's your view but you're prepared to negotiaon? that may not be the end snint >> i'd say this. there may be creative... we have to be very creative about this. but i recognize the palestinians have a different view. >> rose: do you their view that jerusalem means a great deal to them and east jerusalem is their capital >> i understand that that is their position. it's not my position but i understand we can come with different positions to the negotiations. i'll tell you one thing i would do: i would leave that last. i mean, i think that's the wise way to negotiate. but you know here we are talking about what we do when we put all these issues on the table you have to get to the table. >> rose: on that issue, some say that the palestinians got action when they began... when they went to the nations. they all of sudden realized

that they were in a better position. that when they went to the united nations there was a sense that wn they became... pushed back, the world listened to them more. and that they're in a better position now than they were because of the fact that they took this initiative and did not listen to pressure in the united states and others and did not listen and move forward and that that's a lesson for them. >> i thk lesson for them that the way you get... you resolve conflicts is by resolving conflicts. i just met with the president of south sudan. no conflict is analogous. but, look, they had a terrible conflict. >> rose: there's north sudan and south sudan. >> and they worked it out in very tough negotiations, came to an agreement, then went to the u.n. and worked it out with the agreement and i said this to the u.n. the other day. if the palestinians actually sit down and negotiate a peace with

us, a genuine peace, one that would be very tough for us but also tough for them and we came to an agreement that i would not be the last country to recognize a palestinian state in the u.n. i'd be the first country because we worked it out. and i think that's the right course. it's still the peace... that's the only piece that... >> rose: a lot of people argue that was an opportunity for you to do that now. that you should have been the one whsaid i come forward to the united nationsas a partner th the palestinians. we are negotiating these issues but i want to see them have state. that that would have done more than anything you coulhave done. >> rose: you should listen to my speech. even tugh i heard... i today president abbas there's an arabic saying you can't applaud with up with hand and you can't make peace with one hand. but the simple job of task and talking... i even offered the

u.n. building. the u.n. hasn't been the most hospitable place. i took some shots at it and rightly so but i have to say that ban ki-moon, the secretary general, has been going out of his way to try to be fair and he put forward the palmer report on this business we have with turkey, the flotilla. >> rose: which basically said you had a right to blockade but there was excessive action. >> there was concern with tha, yes. but i think that was probably one of the few times since the par station relution of 1947 in which the u.n. gave a reasonably fair deal to israel so i'm... i'm usinghis opportunity to say that because i think it's true. >> rose: tom friedman wrote a tougcolumn which i kno you read and he put it... it really said the following. "prime minister netanyahu is responsible for failing to put forth a strategy to respond to all of those issues of the arab spring and turkey and the

palestinians in a way that protects israel's long-term interests. why don't you make clear what your strategy is with the confidence you know it can possibly produce results? is >> i thought i was doing that. i didn't wax poetic. i said i hop the democrats win but you can also have the militant islamists prevail so you have to be very careful. my caution and my experience has been borne out and the op-ed writers, they write the stuff and it gets poszed out the next day. nobody holds them accountable. i am held accountable for making the right decisions to protect my country in a turbulent season. i don't disregard or ignore the turbulence, on the contrary, i see it. which is why i insist on very strong security safeguardand i also want a genuine peace. i don't want a fake peace. i know tt the peace requires my standing up to my people and my base in saying things that

are difficult. i've done. that but it also requires president abbas stand up to his people d it also requires that when we make the deal that the territories we vacate are not taken over by iran which has happened so far twice. >> rose: speaking of iran. there was a recent i.a.e.a. report, as you well know, saying they have significant more newly established centrifuges that can enrich uranium up to 20%. there's that. and you have spoken about the fear of iran and its destabilizing impact on the region. there's also a little noticed news item th the pentagon is saying to you these double bus bomb those will be coming to israel. under what circumstances would you find it essential to israeli

security interests to do something? >> it's central to theorld security interests. central to american security intests. iran is developing a program for nuclear weapons. it is developing rockets, miless i.c.b.m. to reach not only israel, they' developing i.c.b.m.s to reach manhattan. they're developing warheads. they say ahmadinejad who spoke here the other day at the u.n... it's outrageous. they really should have walked out when he implied that 9/11 was an american plot. i thought... my stomach turned over, you know? and i laid that wreath on that... it's extraordinary. but what's more extraordinary is this man comes to this city and plies this madness. you want this guy to have nuear weaponss?

here's what he's saying. we're not having nuclear weapons we're developing these medical isotopes for mical treatment. we're developing these medical.... >> rose: centrifuges. >> medical isotopes to put on i.c.b.m.s to deliver to patients in new york city, right? got to be a cheaper way to deliver this sff. of course he's developing nuclear wpons and the means to delivering them. >> rose: okay, so what is...? >> not onlyto us, but to you. i think what's stopping him is not only... should not only be my concern-- and its-- it should be th concern of america and it is. and it should be the concern of every civilized nation. >> rose:t what point will you say i cannot wait any longer? what will be the factorss that will make you take that decision? >> well, i hope that we all recognize that we have to act in time. >> rose: are you alarmed that that day... that point of decision may be clear and soon?

>> well, the iranian goal of getting to a nuclear weapon gets closer with every day that passes. >> is there a difference between what israeli intelligence says about that and what u.s. intelligence says? >> the differences have narrowed considerably over the years because we're getting closer and closer. we're...e're not... we're... usually we're on the same page. >> rose: is it a year ay? five years away? >> a lot less further away than it was a few years ag >> rose: a lot less? did the stuxnet vis do great damage? >> it's a lot less further away. they had problems but they keep on moving. they're very determined. >> it is a year? is it two years? is in ththat ballpark? >> we're not that far.

>> rose: can you say to the israeli people "i will not let this stand"? >> i think that this is an imperative for israel, for the united states, for everyone, president obama has said he's determined to prevent iran from developing nuclear weapons and i think you should look in a perspective of the 21st century. i know we spent most of the time talking here about the palestinian issue. >> rose: i brought you back to this because i know how you feel like this is a greater security... >> rose: >> it's not only that. the palestinian... peace with the palestinians will not stop the centrifuges from spinning in tae ruin. >> rose: absolutely. >> but if you stop the centrifuges from spinning in tehran you may get an easier peace with the palestinians. half with the palestinian population that isontrolledy iran, hamas would immediately lose any meaning because without iran, without iran's instability

hamas doesn't go very far. it's like cuba without the soviet union. >> well, there's a note that iran has diminished authority because of the arab spring because some of their allies are against them. hamas, for example, had a different place and what happened in syria than the iranian government did. >> but there are these occasional con contradictions but by and largen this earthquake or sand storm that is sweepi the region, iran is a force that continues to seek... to substrert arab spring to militant islamic militancys and their meddling and involved in just about every country in the worst way. you asked about their nuclear weapons program. i have no doubt that if iran. this ayatollah regime has nuclear weapons and i think the arab spring would turn into an

iranian winter. i think there would be a dire threat for the future of my country and i think that there would be a malignancy. that's what i call it, a malignancy inserted between the west and the east that could threaten the peace of all of us. and i think this is the greatest imperative, the beginning of the 20th century for responsible leaders everywhere have to make sure this does not happen. >> rose: do you have any responsibility to have an approval from the united states government before you took unilateral israeli action? >> israel is a sovereign country and we always reserve the right to defend ourselves but i wouldn't say anything beyond that. >> rose: do you feel that israel today is within the environment you're operating is being, in a sense, demonized? is that a big issue for you? >> sure. it's being vilified all th

time. it's being slandered. there's a cast of characters. there's a play. palestinians want peace, israeli doesn't wa pea, i don't want peace. it's completely contradicted the tual evence of all the offers we've made for peace, all the steps we've taken for peace and the palestinians haven't done that. so that's the play. and outside this bogus play, outside the theter are these vast things that are happening that people are not noticing. that is israel's designs and its developmentf nuclear weapons and this apock lintic messianic sect that could get atomic bombs and threaten not only the threat but threaten all of us. that is a great concern for me i rail against some of the commentators and so on whose sense of mystery doesn't go beyond breakfast.

something very big is happening here and it should be stopped. i think if it is stopped... >> rose: "it" being what? >> the armies of iran with nuclear weapons, the march of militant islam. i think in... >> rose: but the interesting thing, it has not been the march of militant islam that has fueled the arab spring, you know that. you know that that may be a competing argument as these governments.... >> rose: >> no, i think quite the contrary, i think it wasn't militant islam. but they could come...look at what could happen ingypt no. they could be the only organized por that will take over and you get the opposite of what y want which is what happened in lebanon. lebanon you had e revotion, we talk about a secular and progreive lebanon. that was six years ago. now iran controls it, hezbollah controls it so lebanon has descended into medievalism. and the same thing happened in gaza and then t same thing in

tehran. so that could spill out what could happen in other countries in the middle east despite the better hopes of millions of young arabs. >> rose: many people are worried that some incident will happen and some incident that does not look that big at a moment but could explode. for example, one scenario, the turks agree that they will use somehow their own navy to escort a flotilla to gaza. if that happened, what would israel do? >> i'd say that's not a good idea for anyone to entertain. not a good idea. look, we didn't seek the degradatioin turkish relations. our relations with turkey began most dramatilly in davos under the previou government... >> rose: you mean shimon peres and erdogan walked off. >> and came back to a hero's welcome. so there are a lot of things, i

suppose, that tushish domestic policy, turkish foreign polic >> rose: they'veeen a real friend. >> yeah, they were. they were. they chose to change course for their own reasons. i ho... >> rose: but it's said on that issue you were prepared to make an apology... you were prepared at one point to make an apology for kind of operational excess and then you pulled back from that? >> well we have... >> rose: domestic sflix >> no, it was something much bigger. i won't go into the details. >> rose: but that's the truth that you were prepared perhaps... >> well, maybe i expected something in return... >> rose: which was? >> well, if we're goini ha to this thing resolved i'd rather not get into that. but i think that... you know, i think it's very hard to apologize for something you didn't do wrong. you apologize... >> rose: it was operational cess. you believe that. that's what they said. they said you had the right to blockade but... >> you saw the veo, they go down the fast drop and they're

nearly hacked to death. and p.m.c. that. you know, somebody said to me... a wise, wise scholar said if you apologize for something clearly shouldn't you'll neither be valued as a friend or feared as a foe. and give than we're dealing with a historian over 90 years old, that gets my attention level because my father is a historian. >> rose: i know. (laughs) i thought you were talking about your father. >> well, he's over 92 but that's not him. >> rose: does she the same view about israel's future that you do or is he to your right? >> he s his pessimistic moments but right now every moment that he has is a blessing indeed. >> rose: how old is he? >> 102. >> rose: what do you want? what do you tell him you want your legacy to be? >> that i spent my time protecting the jewish state and enabli the jewish future to

proceed with prosperity and security. so it's not obvious. what we have is not obvious. we've defied the rules of history to ce ba. we built a sovereign state. it's against all the physics of history and politics. there's a strong... read will durant's book... >> rose: the western there noty? >> no, i read the historic civilization burr he has a book called the lessons of history and it's fascinati. and he says when oriental fecund meets western... it will be a great power. so he said numbers count. and he says there's one exception he sort of said the jews have been able to beat, to come back, that's what i feel. the jews have come back on the stage of history.

that anti-semitism was still there. the attempt to abscribe to the jews and the jewish state all the ills of not hing peace, not having economic stability, that's still there. this is a real miracle. i'm in charge on my watch to protect america. >> rose: as you talk with passion and the palestinians feel the same way, that's what they want. >> let them have it. here's my hand. here's the table. t's t on with it! the is no answer to the this... >> rose: but you understand that as much as what you just said resonated with people around the

world-- not just jews-- the same aspiration they have resonates with not just arabs but... >> rose: come and talk. if the aspiration is just to live an independent life in your state but not destroy may state we'll have peace. >> rose: if you believe they were not intent on destroying your state and did not want circumstances that would cause you more fear than hope are you prepared to make a deal? >> no, i am prepared to make the deal. and i can deliver the deal. the tragedy for the palestinians d with their leaderships, they were offered extraordinary offers by previous lizly prime ministers, they didn't take it. there were six israeli pri ministers since the oslo process began. every one of them wanted peace but the palestinians declined again and again because they wouldn't make the tough compromises for peace that ty need to make. israel was willing to do it,'m

wiing to do it. th have to be willing to do it. >> rose: is it something that the united states needs to do in terms of presenting, playing a larger role? is there some need for either the quartet-- which the united states is rt of-- of president obama to put forward that will make this better or is it not the united states, it's not the quartet, it is israel and palestinians sitting at a table until they come out with something that is in the great long-term interest and security of both peoples in a two-state solution. >> the answer is yes but i think that the u.s. and europeans have something to offer by telling the palestinians that's exactly what we expect you to do. the fact that the u.s. is saying that with a clear voice tay i think important. the europeans may be joining this, i hope. it looks like they are. not all of them.

i today kathy ashton, to get anything in the e.u. they need 27 votes to agr, a coensus. i said kathy, i think it's easier for me to reach an agreement with president abbas than for you to reach an agreement with the europeans. but i think they are trying to be helpful. >> rose: thank you for the hour. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: benjamin netanyahu, prime minister... yes, sir? >> we ran twice as much as we should have talked and it's been a pleasure and worthwhile. >> rose: thank you for coming.

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