the political pundits in the united states are to be believed. the issues of border security and undocumented immigration will be the overriding political themes of this year's presidential election. donald trump famously said in 2016 that he would build a wall along the us mexico border and quote, mexico will pay for it. and quote, that was ridiculous. of course, republicans now excuse joe biden, of having what they call an open border policy. that too is ridiculous. 12 biden's rhetoric may not be as angry or in some cases as up to says trump's fighting is no friend of the immigrant without a visa. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers, news . 2 2 2 i'd like to read you something written by our guest today. quote. on

january 14th, vic derma della sanchez said us a 33 year old mother from mexico city, stepped into the rio grande, holding the hands of her 2 children. you are lie, ruby h 10, and jonathan augustine, very honest, the sunshine 8. we don't know how they got into trouble in the strong current, or if they even knew how to swim, group of bait, mexico's border rescue service, saw them struggling and called the us border patrol. agents went to the park gate a couple of miles from the boat ramp. soldiers of the texas military department refused to let them through. mexican authorities tried to rescue the mom and her children. they were able to save 2 others, but the 3 drowned and group of beta could only return to mexico with their bodies. later, the texas military department said that its soldiers standing behind a chain link fence had shown high powered lights on the water and use their night vision goggles, but somehow had seen nothing. the white house called the event tragic and used it

as evidence to support its case before the us supreme court. challenging texas is assertion that it is entitled to a wrecked razor wire board or barriers and use its own soldiers to stop migraines from crossing the river. the texas governors policies are cool, dangerous and inhumane said a d h. s spokesperson? congressman joaquin castro added this, he said quote, texas officials allowed 2 children to drown and quote, it within days. president joe biden said in a statement, if congress passed the bill to continue funding warren ukraine and genocide in gaza, he would agree to and t migrant provisions that are part of the reason the less sancha and her children ground a quote, i will shut down the border immediately, the president promised i'd like to welcome david back into the show. he's a photo journalist, a fine art photographer, author, and union organizer,

and he's also inactive as his work can be seen in museums and galleries around the world. welcome david. thank you so much for joining us on the big admirer of yours, john. thank you for having me. oh, thank you. believe me, the feeling is absolutely mutual. david, i want to begin by admitting to my own bias. i am the grandson of refugees. many members of my family came to the united states as what are sometimes now called illegal aliens. all they wanted to do was to work, pay taxes and help their poor relatives in the old country. they learned how to speak english, they worked hard. they waited for an amnesty and then they got their citizenship, their children, and their children's children, including me, have become very successful if the american dream. and frankly, the country simply cannot run without immigrants, whether they're documented or not documented. so why the hostility toward people who happen to not have a visa, why the anger, the hatred,

and the unrelenting work to throw these people out of the country as well. we hear a lot from trump and his mug acolytes. i think we ought to really step back in and, and ask ourselves really who is angry here? because i think really the majority of people in this country are not hostile and don't hate immigrants. in fact, when republicans tried to run one repressive measures around immigration as their main political blank, so to speak, they lose selections. um, but i think it's also true what you're saying because there is a long history of racism in this country. you know, the ku klux klan was organized against black people, but also against immigrants, against catholics and jews, guest mexicans. and the last reason i think why this continues to be a problem is, is basically that keeping him progress, vulnerable and documented, for instance,

is profitable. look at the profit, so the agriculture industry, which is built on and documented those labor, that's right. and on that's makes, it gives some people at least a self interest in trying to keep things but where they are. and so making that kind of racial and the time we're going to stare him when i see old news clips or even clips from old presidential debates, where people like richard nixon, ronald reagan, even george h. w. bush are talking about undocumented immigrants. their positions are full of compassion. none of these men, all of whom consider themselves to be conservative. republicans could today survive in the, in the republican party. many of them would be seen as to pro immigrant even to be democrats. when do you think things changed in the us toward, toward migrants,

at least this, this harden shift to the right. and why did the national attitude swing so far in the anti immigrant direction? at least among conservatives to well, the republican party is not the same party as it was in the presidency of ronald reagan writes, proud reagan almost been extremely conservative, anti communist president. but he did sign the immigration reform control act in 1986, which was the last that gave immigration amnesty to about 2 and a half 1000000 people. now it also had some repressive aspects to it. it sort of initiated the whole process of notarizing the border for instance. and so even then, um it was sort of a, a compromise. right? but the republican party is that exist under donald trump is not interested in a compromise of any kind that would offer a legal status. for instance, the people who don't have it. democrats, you know,

they really have not oppose this in a way they're running scared on, you know, when biting proposes compromise that you referred to earlier. and i think is main reason for doing that was to try to kind of blunt the attack of, of drugs and extreme um, republicans on that said the brightness soft of migration. so instead of really providing a real principle, the fierce defense of the rights of migrants and the rights of working people. in general, what he did was he said, well, i'm gonna, i'll do you, me, you, i'm going to close now the border. and that's not something that kind of stops the republicans in their tracks. if anything, it give some even more momentum. i'd say, david, tell us about these actions by the governor of texas, greg abbott's to you serve some of the federal government's authority to control border access. just policies had been ruled unconstitutional,

but he just keeps added any way. what should we expect to see there? as well, you know, some of his policies that he say are put on hold. these appealed the ruling that said that it was unconstitutional for him, for us to put on razor wire barriers in the middle of the rio grande river. as a way of preventing mike. well, yeah, he says preventing migrants from crossing list. let's get real about this of the of drowning migrants in the river, which is exactly what happened on to the center of your kids. but he's also proposed a lot of other anti immigrant measures in texas, and he pushed through a loss through the texas legislature that makes being on documented itself a state cry on now under federal law, being and documented is a violation of immigration status, but it's not a federal crime, in fact,

when the congress was attempted to do that, back in 2006, there were immigrant marches in, in the united states been involved literally 2000000 people to i was there, you know, in los angeles or where they had to march is each with a 1000000 people are that was able to stop that effort on the federal level, but on map it is push this through on the state level. um he propose building more border walls and reading barriers asylum um, forcing the firing of millions of and documented workers to what's called the verify system. and i think the worst one is permitting children to be held in detention centers with their parents. and it's not just passing laws, you know, texas residence has just recently tried to shut down the reception center that tries to help migrants once they do come into the us and go through the processing by. i'm us immigration authorities, that's a catholic church itself ran in el paso, for the last 27 years. and texas is now trying to shut that down the by new

ministration. one as you just know that those core decisions versus texas on the border. but joe biden has not been very much more supportive of migrants than donald trump was. he's nicer about it. he's less controversial about it. why are the democrats not fighting for the rights of immigrants like the democratic party of the past? did? why are they mirroring republicans in so many ways as well? a big part of the democratic party has bought into the basic idea that underlies a lot of these repressive measures. and that is that on immigrants, a migraines crossing the border are a threat. they treat them like an enemy, the whole idea of in sports, and that is to keep people out after all, this is why the center and her kids drowned in the river was that the whole basis of the policy there is to stop people from coming because they are

a threat and they are, the enemy is kind of like even a militarized idea of who migrants are. and you know, we're talking about people data center who is from mexico. so you, we don't know that much about her, but right. but the people who are arriving at the border are our workers, they're farmers, they're ordinary people like you and i. so what makes them a threat? this is kind of what underlies it. and then of course, you know, there's this miscalculation, i think, on the part of part of the democratic board including button. this said the things that anti immigrant ideas and hysteria is a wildly popular idea among people and in this country. and that they can, within an election by competing with republicans in who can be seen as the most stamped. i am regret, david, stay right there. we're going to take a short break. and when we come back, we're going to talk to david thinking about what realistically can be done to

protect the human rights, civil rights and dignity of those people trying to make their way to the united states in an environment of hostility and of dirty politics. stay to the. 2 2 1 year and do the to attempt to become an extra a month. i see it's not there for the show event. it will be a job to bluff because of a does uh, international stuff is defense. i see the supplement is setup button and not the printer and i thought someone did you lose? it asked me like that. if i said the media, i love you focused on you to reason to do say with the city, the new country tempe. each of us going to be presented as for the money i'm going to work it on stimulus the industry is it'll, what's money? proof of concept really left. so should william farmer shots might give us who we

have contract store to go and what decision did my lab and what was that man? it was the ones that ridiculous funds. i put it in the midst of them one today and, but you also also put in additional to set i'm showing the total suspect patient can was i'm patient did it for she's kimball's, i'm best do what i mean there's a copper based upon the, the, what is part of the is it that the employee would post that isn't the the place you was input in the word or is it something deeper, more complex? might the present good. let's stop without cases. let's go out of

of the, in 1492, this evening, christopher columbus reached the bahamas and discovers the new world for europe. the wealth of america and its fast territories. cosby envy of the europeans, especially the spaniards and the portuguese. they sought, after taking over these lands. however, there lived indigenous peoples with a high culture and their own nation, who is there, the barbaric colonization of america, which went down in history under the name of con, diesel. that lasted for more than 100 years seen 1521 care design. cortez is kind of due to the doors captured and destroyed the capital of the aztec empire. daniels practically massacring the local population. following them,

francisco pizarro is gun case. the doors destroyed the inca empire as a result of spanish aggression. the ancient maya civilization collapse, suppressing the resistance of the indians. the invaders carried out mass executions . the horrendous genocide was aggravated by the diseases that the europeans had brought to america. the number of the indigenous population decreased at 16 times from 25. so one and a half 1000000 people from keystone became one of the largest demographic disaster fees of mankind and remains an indelible bloody stains in the history of the european colonial empires. the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm drunk to reaku. we're speaking with david bacon. he's a photo journalist, fine arts photographer, author, union organizer and artist. thanks again for being with us. david. it's

a pleasure. it's a pleasure, john. thank you for inviting me. thank you. david, i want to return to the very powerful piece that you wrote as part of a presentation with which i opened the show. it harkens back to that epic song deportees by woody guthrie, woody guthrie saying about a plain load of migrants who were being deported to mexico when their plane exploded over los gatos, california. he lamented that they wouldn't be known by their names, but only as deportees. the bottom line here is that so many americans see undocumented refugees as somehow less than human. and indeed, donald trump has said that they were animals and that they were less than human. tell us about this family that was lost in the rio grande and about the challenges that my friends face on their way to the united states as well. you know, john actually on the the people and what do you,

guthrie saw who died in that plane crash. the reason why he calls them deportees was because there was no record that was captive their names and we're talking here about the late 1940. this is not something is add on recently a very, um, uh, brave and pioneering activist went through the records of the parishes in the central valley in california where people were buried. ads found their names and went to mexico and found their families and kind of and did this anonymity that in which people were treated in sandwich customer. he was old testing in his song. so, you know, it's both. i see both things exist in our country here, but the effort to serve the human eyes, migrants, and treat them as people with no name or as you said, you know, so insulted calling people animals or killers or, or what a terrace,

or what have you. this is. busy the weight of, of car do you nice you people and seeing them, it's as not human, but i think it's also true. so we have at the same time, people who are very courageously trying to not just keep track of the humidity of migrants, but to talk to them individually and deal with their cases individually. advocate for them individually. so right, going in terms of the, of the santa and her 2 kids. what we really know about her is, is that she was a poor person from mexico city. and the we have had a wave of migration from mexico for many, many years, at least for, for 5 decades. and overwhelming leads of people who are coming to the border are people or workers. they are farmers. and what's even more important is that in many

cases they are also victims. busy of the policies that the us has, i apply way would be to say, encouraged in mexico, but i would really want to say imposed on mexico. it's a free trade policies that basically have tried to force the mexican government to, to use unemployment and poverty as a way of forcing down the standard of living people in mexico to make it an attractive place for us corporations when best. right. but the price of doing that is that you make it so difficult for people to survive, that in order to eat and put food on the table, or pay the rent, or what have you. people lead to the us to look for work. and that is what we do know about data such in her kids. and that is that she was doing something she needed to do in order to survive as

a person. and that's the reason why the survival has become so difficult is decades and decades of these kinds of free trade policies. you know, the free trade agreements and using poverty as, as a, as both a magnet for investment. but on the other hand, i something that displaces people and force them to move. i want to ask you also what i think is an important question. it may be a controversial one, but here goes, why do we, why do americans not understand that it is us foreign policy that creates these immigration crises, imposing, for example, right wing dictatorships on tiny central american countries or wrecking hades, economy or imposing crippling sanctions on cuba and venezuela, why do we not understand that? that's what forces people to leave their countries. why is it that so many americans just can't see the connection between immigration and u. s. foreign policy?

well, i think we have to look at where people in this country get their information from and overwhelming leads of mass media in this country plays a very, very bad role here. and he would you mention is a good example of that right now. the us is gearing up for um, basically military intervention and he wants to, yes, i'm using other countries as, as proxies. but essentially the us is paying for this and us as a what this pushing this idea that he must be occupied militarily again. um, using as a pretext is supposedly the final level of violence in 80 is so great that in order to protect patients, that this is what has to happen. this is a completely false idea of what is happening in haiti. he has been suffering from a basic, says us imposed series of governments whose main purpose is to make a, again, a profitable place for us investors, the garment factories,

the ones that make the baseball gloves, the wilson, baseball gloves. all of these are, are, are head. this is kind of what motivates us policy as well as kind of trying to keep a control political control over countries in, in the caribbean. and so this was why on the us put, jump that runs out of state who was really the only popularly elected progressive president that he has had yeah. offer in so much very to decade. and us put him on a plane to the central african republic. i'm in order to remove them as president in order to keep this situation intact. and of course, what this really means is that again, you are governments that impose these poverty conditions on haitians and went to earthquake comes, you know, they collect the money from the, you know, foundations or whatever and put it in their pocket instead of helping patients and so of course, asians are in the need of survival just like people coming from mexico or people

coming from venezuela where us economic sanctions have had the same effect. so the us is, is imposing the conditions that produce the migration. and then when people cross the border, treating them as though they are the enemy. yeah. so they are criminals in some way . there are state laws in places like texas in arizona that prohibit people from providing food, water, clothing, shelter for any help at all, to people who cross the border without a visa or those laws being enforced. and is there any real way to oppose them as well? there is a long history of the us government or federal government as well as state governments like texas trying to enforce those pro additions on. but i think that one of the best things that we can see now is that people are doing this any way. you know, again, this is an old, old thing. you know, the months or area council,

which was an organization in tucson, arizona, and was tried by the federal government back in the 1990s for supposedly the crime of, of helping and documented people today. we have another. busy position called no more desk that goes out into the border to greet migrants as they are traveling through the desert. i'm giving people water helping people to survive. and this is being treated again, both by federal prosecutors and by the conservative government in the state of arizona as harbouring immigrants harboring illegal aliens. you know, this is the charge that is being leveled against people. and that's pretty serious . you know, people can go to prison on for that, but people do it any way. so this is i think in the great tradition of civil disobedience and it goes along with, it's not just reading people in the dust are leaving bottles of water for b. busy to drink if they are dying of thirst. but also that they are that against

that the detention center is because we have to remember that there are literally thousands of people in prison to detention centers around the country. and we have other organizations. i know that there's one this called the immigrant movement for you for human integrity on that is organizing. march is from detention center to detention center here in california to try to force the closure of the detention center and actually did succeed in richmond, california. in closing, the west county detention center. so these traditions of active is on being out in the streets and civil disobedience. i think are, are ones that the, on the efforts to pro would prohibit them or not succeeding. and i think the same goodness for these people who are doing it anyway. that's right. how can those of us who feel strongly about encouraging emigration. fight this, this sharp move to the right in america? what can be done if anything, to impact policy or?

well i think so we have to, 1st of all we have to oppose the threat of fascism on this coming november. it is possible that we could have what in effect would be, i kind of approach afresh as government in this country. and one of the 1st people who have groups of people who would pay the price for that would be on immigrants, especially on documented people. because trump is already talking about on reporting millions of people putting millions of people who have pending cases in the immigration system. into prisons while their cases are being adjudicated. so we have to stop that. that is the 1st and most primary thing. but we also have to make sure that those people who are print are being presented as the alternative. so we are pressuring them and doing everything we can to force them to take a stand against this, instead of sort of trying to compete without, you know, here's how do you have a grading, right, immigration, your, your trump, and,

and that part of the republican party that they actually take a stand and also that tell the people the truth in this country that the route, the way of opposing this is by talking about the real reasons why people are coming here. the people are not a threat, they're not the enemy. and trying to deal with the humanity of people and then deal with the reasons why people are, are forced to leave their home countries to begin with. all of those are the necessary things. i think that's right. david bacon. thank you so much for joining us. was a pleasure. the great 19th century american poet, emma lazarus is famous poem, the new colossus says, this quote, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. the rich and refuse of your teeming shore. send these, the homeless tempest tossed to me. i lift my lamp beside the golden door and quote, this poem is immortalized at none other than the statue of liberties. it is what

made america the great destination of immigrants and refugees from around the world . when did that change, why did it change? the u. s. has gone down the wrong path on immigration immigration, and the diversity that it brings are the keys to american success. i want to thank our guest, david bacon for being with us today, and thank you to our viewers for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. follow me on sub stack at john kerry echo. we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except we're so shorter is a conflict with the 1st law show we live in to the patient. we should be very careful about visual intelligence at the point,

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