the, the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants

a better wills. and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the there's an old adage at least here in the united states that there is no such thing as bad press. well, that's not the case. if you're boeing, the giant american aircraft manufacturer, boeing has been in the news a lot literally, and none of that news has been good. i'm not talking just about the companies $737.00, max h, crashing and killing everybody on board. i'm talking about other issues in one case, part of the fuselage broke off a plane in mid flight to creating a gaping hole in the side that nearly sucked out a 17 year old passenger. in another case, a tire fell off

a boeing plane during take off destroying a car in the airport parking lot. and then yet another, an external panel fell off a plane in mid flight and nobody even noticed it until the plane landed. and in the midst of all this, a boeing whistle blower, providing ongoing testimony on safety issues committed suicide. the . 2 2 2 2 2 boeing has long been the largest airplane manufacturer in the world. sure. it's neck and neck with air bus for years now. but boeing also has a massive military division, providing aircraft, and aircraft parts to the us and to allied military's. the company is worth a whopping $112000000000.00. boeing used to be one of those companies that literally, everybody knew and trusted. there was a time in the not too distant past when practically,

every passenger plane in the united states was made by boeing. the company was the biggest employer in the us state of washington, and even the 2 senators from washington were known as the senators from boeing. but things have changed over the years. the company has faced increased competition from airbus, the european aircraft manufacturer and air buses successfully sold plains to us carriers along the sol domain of boeing. a few years ago the company moved much with operations to the southern us state of south carolina. because washington state is a union state and south carolina is not that way the company could pay lower wages to non union employees. things went downhill from their and it's still unclear if what boeing is seeing is a breakdown and safety. a breakdown in leadership, a breakdown in the manufacturing process or just plain bad luck. but whatever it is, the company is facing the prospect of billions of dollars in fines and lawsuits in

the future. that is not at all right. we're happy to be joined by jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks so much for being with us. let me get out of me. i appreciate that. jamie, i'll admit that i didn't really start paying close attention to boeing until just several years ago when to boeing 737, max a. it's crashed and killed everybody on board. we learned that there was a problem with the software and try as they might, the pilots could not regain control of the aircraft as they, as they plunged to the ground lawsuits against bo. and you're still pending because of those crashes. at 1st, the company blamed the pilots, but they finally admitted that it was actually a software problem. did the company been enact any policy changes to strength and safety? or did they consider the crashes a one off that didn't really need to be addressed?

at least a comprehensive way. no, they actually took it very seriously because there are, this is 7 or 7 max year. it has been the fast as of, of a pain plane series of the boeing is ever had a 737 has been a workforce in selecting sixty's, but this new max. uh, $737.00 is a totally basically, that's always new. play a bunch of a space off of the old flat sport. boeing did i have to take serious matters is i take this very seriously and take matters in their own hands because they were elders, a lot of money. they're going to lose a lot of past clients in airlines. they're, they, they put in a new candidate, new software. it says that they update the software system for the m guess they put in new pilot manuals, the training for the pilots. and then a lot of other up, some of the updates that were, i essential and making sure that this didn't happen again. but these,

these issues came from the fact that boeing tried to rush the system and make the fine get out faster. they, they should have, i see, it seems like since the time of those, those 2 crashes now about 7 years ago, that safety is just gotten worse at boeing. i'm not talking about a simple software problem. i'm talking about overall safety. and indeed, the national transportation safety board issued a statement in january of this year saying that the onus was on boeing not on the n t s b, b and t, as the statement said very, very plainly, we are not bowing safety department. i can't imagine a clear signal to the company to get its act together. but what, what happened next? well, i mean, it clearly there's an ongoing trouble. they, they do, they dropped off the head of some symbolic people, including the ceo. but at the same time, don't feel sorry for him. he got this extraordinary good. go in paris you. i,

betty. so it wasn't like he was just based on this other wrote it, but some of the, in a few other people have not ever really seen or heard of anybody being taking the child accountable or have trouble it. if i add a seriously, how would you all that f, a, a at boeing, there shouldn't be more people, there should be more oversight. i think a lot of people, you know, and try to schuman nature with, when you have time between is interaction. people just start to forget, it's not that they're not, they don't care or they're not. they don't want to pay attention, but they had to go about to wash them to get the work. they've got the big you move over your head 3 because all those kinds of things. and so this kind of goes into the back back or done the bag or, or mine until another incident happens right now. um, unfortunately, well, unfortunately because of the pin demick. uh, a lot of this was put on on the back door it people's minds cuz they had so much of

other things on their light. um and i think it's safe to say though, we're looking at where this is or coming from. because some of the top down i don't care who is saying that, you know, and who is actually doing the work on the board. the guys, i think the women on the floor of the factory. i got the ones who were making a decision, hey, listen, i get this finder was designed this thing some, some grad differently or less to do a have crept job because they are put under a lot of pressure. but they're only following orders. they are, they're there, they're soldiers in this thing. they're not the leaders, right? you need to go after. ready leadership jimmy, just in the early part of 2024. we've seen more than a dozen safety incidents with boeing. everything from tires falling off to parts of the fuselage, blowing off to electrical outages and even engine fires. am i incorrect in thinking that this looks like a systemic breakdown and maintenance, maintenance and safety even? how can something like this happen almost every day?

and why is that happening to boeing and not to other manufacturers? the right 0. i go to my nose night my, to my is on this one. so you can say that these are just horrible incidences that have happened. and also a lot of these things that use mentioned are more of an airline problem than they bought dry. we'll following, all right, the, some of the panels, those things are maintenance issues and problems can happen whenever you have a humans and body situation. you have cuban air, and that's the number one cause of axes. and this is an incidence is and so that is where i would really concentrate on, on the sage of procedures in the true, in the training that these people are getting. are they getting the proper training? are they being properly supervised? is their proper check of their work? i think that the airlines and others have tried to cut back and cut back cause

because profit is more more important. now as i say that they want it cause a crash that they don't want to dressed as a truck, a crash is very expensive to them both as far as the monetary but it was the, the monitor only as far as just the costs of it that way, but also the cost of their reputation. so um, with boeing's other part or i just think that the main problem is what is all going on is that they have that everybody's really focused on right now. i think these a lot of these things happen all the time anyway, but everybody's really, really focused on the n t s b statement that it's not boeing, safety department in mind. what do you think happens next? i can't imagine the government just trust boeing to do the right thing. what's the process of oversight that we should expect to see what you see with this entire process and the way to think they've been doing it for the last decade or 2. maybe

a little bit more, they've had this like this relationship where if he does not have the resources to be able to monitor everything properly, should, is really able to, excuse me, is really not able to, to do that. so they could go to create this deal with boeing, where they would share responsibility and going with self reports. yes. now this is completely when a 110 percent, depending on trust. and now there's that trust has been broken and in the boeing is proven to be a bad player in this. so you have, uh, you know, this is backlash going on. now at the same job. boeing, you said it's always been getting away with murder because everybody has to be paying attention. you could also say that some of the people that are f a that were supposed to be watching them. and being oversight, have we're not doing their job properly because guess why they wouldn't find a job with boeing, actually love to have that believe if a so there's a lot of of, of dekalb yachts here that needs to be flushed out and get to the bottom of this

because ultimately at the end of the day we're talking about we're talking about people safety and their lives. is number 2, we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs across america where he been around the world without a doubt. jamie finch, former national transportation safety board official stay right there. of the story gets darker. we're going to continue our conversation about the safety of boeing right after a short break. you're going to want to stay to. 2 2 the the most affordable cuz it also look

at the business and you clean the b, e a w, those tools and you know, maybe cons, graham, we'll just go through with this discussion of curriculum for those who are looking for wedges to suction. sure ruckel was not of the different student info which of course and yet you throw in the probably you're still the shorter issue through your deos that i sent to you yesterday. isaac care to as you tab. sure. yours, man, i'm looking at the study skills sort of leaning towards the flush to meet you on thursday, the tutor which, which is a little bit it was just some of the posting sustainable. they won't, because we use new way to possible to school goals. we really don't know which teacher i know for the don't or that you suggested to given me other than that, we're going to sort of these disagreements. it also has come up with the

to that the media data. yeah. who is shown on this because of the institution vehicle catch to go into it. you and you're doing a draft. deed is a bus insisted on this. and so i seem to see if this was because i had some students go to both of them. the media to decide because what it is, uh, my, your, it was the one year that it was a decides to conflicted experienced. bit use it up a year. hope was that glitched. i know. got all the the, the

welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we're speaking with jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks again for being with us. sure. many of us were appalled when we learned of the death of boeing, whistleblower john mitch barnett. he oversaw a dozen safety inspectors at the boeing manufacturing plant in south carolina. boeing had moved production of the 787 dreamliner to south carolina. at least, he says, to get away from the machine is to union. the problem was that there weren't enough qualified machinist in south carolina, and barnett soon said that his job was a nightmare. can you leave the ground work for us here? what was the nature of the problem that barnett encountered early on as well? i mean, it's just like i said, i mean they don't do it to me or personally,

i don't blame boeing from. ready into a state whether there was they was on union, but they need to be more prepared for this because they don't think they're going to have the employees down there and it should be able to do to properly it may change or their factory and the quality of their product, that's a huge back mistake on their part. and that right there. i mean like i said, i don't have a problem with their moving and try to save money. but the same time they're trying to move. they save money at the cost of safety. so it's great for south carolina is great to see the jobs going into the south. is, is great to see a, the wells, be sure if you will, in other states. but at the same time, you've got to have the resources, the tools, the people, to, to be able to support a brand. and most of this is very necessary to train them properly. i don't care how, what level is to train them properly. barnett said that in the washington manufacturing facility, each safety inspector was in charge of supervising 15 mechanics in south carolina.

each safety inspector was supervising 50 mechanics and many of those mechanics he said, were working in restaurants a month earlier. can not possibly be true or, or was he exaggerating? is the root of the problem? here, as simple as the allegation to boeing did choose profits over safety and didn't have enough qualified personnel. so i mean, i don't know, but the get the what he's saying is true or not. i mean i can't get into it actually. no, we can't ask him. now that is unfortunate with these very sad, sad situation, but he's also very suspect. our guys, i just really, really suspect. yeah. of these co is it, is that happen? that's right. for boeing. and uh, but after you imagine if you're going from 15 mechanics that you said that your supervisor to 50 crazy. i mean that was, that's quite true. i mean, you know,

the been doing was and so it's, it's, it's really irresponsible and surely to goodness they could have found somebody even if they had to go po, somebody from airbus horse for the right for i remember years of age running some other as well i mean, we can, we can bring in any buttons and definitely putting in the, the, going to going it, these universities and school and, and, and bringing in these, these young people to train them to be, you know, who are engineers to begin with. but you proud to train them in the boeing way, which i'm frustrated with the boy is now, but it was, it is something that of that we need to really get. they do really need to get back to because boeing was always an engineering company. i don't want to emphasize this . that was their culture. that was their background. that was the nature of the company that they started out with from the beginning. but when they were quite or i'm sorry when they acquired mcdonald douglas in the 1990. for whatever reason,

boeing to go on to mcdonald douglas calder, which was more about profit and bottom line. uh huh. i have no idea why they did this, but they and they did. and i think that money motivation people start seeing the money. certainly people making the making money and they're like, ok, well we'll stay with this small are just better than our model was just costing us . we more it is me where is profitable before. um, i don't care what your profit is. if you're out here selling, i like tronic this transporting people at 35000 feet in the air going 600 miles an hour. you better have a dog going good black product. it's something that is going to be a safe and secure and something we can all feel good about getting into not trying to get our or change our flights and, and trey sharp or travel plans to get off of that plane. that's right. mich barnett was so appalled at the safety of her sights at boeing that he became a whistle blower. and he had been given testimony in the a major civil suit against the company. he had provided 2 depositions,

but then earlier this year, just before he was scheduled to appear for a 3rd time to give a deposition, he killed himself in the parking lot of a hotel. what kind of pressures do you think he must have been facing? do we know any of the details of his testimony in these depositions, or what may have driven him to, to make such a, such a drastic move? 12, obviously there's issues if he's raising that were very important and very relevant to what's going on. um, now did you want to play devil's advocate? there's no so you say, oh this is somebody that was just got all that had extra grind. that was that i get into their job because they were having an affair which i've written somewhere. the one of the papers just got shot your be hearing it. i just thought that these because what i was reading was, this is not, this is not for actually what, nothing like it is the problem. these are distractions. yes. so he was having an affair. he was having, he was doing this, it was a lot of, i know too much stuff talking about just get to the problem. stop trying to put to

smoke string this image. get to the problem. and um, you know, it, it, it makes it very scary for people who want to be with the board because you always told, if your was of lowered your protected. mm hm. um now especially say this, this job and it didn't have problems and issues like in the bossing. so as, as having to come out of the blue. but all kinds of things so suspicious. so i mean, it has, i thought so too. i have to say that and the timing of this doesn't make any kind of sense to me. if he decided be a whistleblower years ago and that by all accounts he had an incredible memory and was able to recall very specific dates and events that took place on those dates related to safety related to inspections. if you've already given to comprehensive depositions and you're preparing just a few days later to give a 3rd comprehensive deposition, then why?

at that point, would you take your life? the timing just doesn't make any sense to me. you know, it doesn't make any sense and then quite frankly, if you're going to do something like that with then you were upset about something else. when you break something down as a, as a point of your life, just lead me to protect what you've done. i just, i root is just, it just smells so as far as, oh yeah, it just thinks the inappropriate behaviors. i couldn't agree more. and that actually leads to another question is, he was the star witness. he was the one providing the most comprehensive information. so what happens to the civil suit when all of a sudden he's not there and not only is he not there, but boeing is not going to be able to cross examine him in a court of law if this were to go to to trial. now which was i have no idea what the, what the, what the legal ramifications are and what the next steps are as not,

and not being in for an attorney. but i can't imagine people just saying, oh well, he's gone, we're not going to go any further into this world. gosh, you're going to look at this. somebody's gonna have to pick up the manual. and uh, you know, you're having a company that is not doing what it needs to be doing is as its responsibility in doing, you have a company that is fighting against the n t s b and resisting during those things and, and all of a sudden they can't find the, the, the records where they, they fix the plug in the door and the, the repair records. i mean, hard, i mean, just as always adds up. it's almost like a, a bad novel story into john grisham not quite honestly. yeah. but not one of his good was that is it is, it was a um, it, they just got somebody. somebody has to pick up the bat manual and i imagine it has

to be congress. you know, it is, somebody was a real authority to do my. ready happy, i couldn't agree more. i couldn't agree more and a, you know, this is an ongoing problem all over government is it really is up to congress to provide the appropriate oversight. but then even congress as loaded as many of us, you know, tend to think that it is, they don't have the staff for comprehensive oversight. and so it's this, this cycle that just keeps rotating. let me, let me make one more option version. i'm a congress, i'm glad you brought that up, is because it, he said they don't have enough staff and they don't the same job. they were all countries run by children. i average i seems like it's 12 years old. and, and everybody over to her left to right all the time. yes. and so it's gonna be the only thing that they don't do pay in a least for a guy shouldn't show up. like, you know, i was a young kid ones. i was working and washington, i know it works. you go to the hill, you work the hill, and then you find

a project and you go get everything jobs or that's right, that's how it work. that's right. but the, the, the system had to do it to the staff, the staff on congress grew. capitol hill in congress have, have rotated in at least 3 times. and now there's a few. but the overwhelming majority is all these people have no corporate knowledge in memory of what is going on. yeah, so true. is there any momentum now for safety changes at boeing? jamie, do you think the company has finally hit bottom and can begin repairing itself and, and will the government ensure that improvements actually are implemented? i think that delay, you're going to see improvements with boeing and, and in getting them to do stuff is bottom line is money that has the airlines, the airlines are binder products. guess what? you've got a problem that you are going to be losing billions and billions of dollars and,

and let's. ready remember that, as you mentioned early on at the beginning of the interview, boeing has a huge presence in defense of that huge, really huge and, and that's where their bread and butter really is now. right. but their reputation part is. ready on in the commercial airspace area, because not a lot of people don't know what they do in, in defense of space. those types of things. is there a really involved? yeah. and so it's not just about aviation, you know, planes, of course, of large commercial aircraft is also about the defense issues. be a huge, huge contract. and, you know, they've got to get to the point where they are stopping the bleeding of money. and that's what there's going to drain them dry so they don't get into a controller. that's right. jamie finch is a former national transportation safety board official. thank you for your take on

the boeing and on the death of mitch barnett. so brian appleton, a british safety adviser, one said safety is not an intellectual exercise to keep us in work. it is a matter of life and death. it is the sum of our contributions to safety management that determines whether the people we work with live or die. he was right, of course. now we'll see if boeing can live by those words. i want to thank our guest, jamie finch for helping us to understand this complex problem. and thanks to our viewers to for joining us for another episode with the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power, tired vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse

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the possible tom before the stone, as all lies there on a run in the middle east that's up to to around one. but it would tell you it's a deadly is very striking. consulates. didn't syria done breach in central russia lose settlements downstream? inundated with water and forces evacuation of more than 4000 people. growing consents, india is representative to the international monetary fund, lost his out to the organization constantly under playing the success of these countries. booming of going on the ground is coming up next. hey, on oxy international monitors, pete discussed and i'll be back with the full news run down.