how she was spoken, so it was a good cop bad cop operation by ukrainian security agents and re was more thoughtful and supportive. well, the other guy, victor got straight to the fritz needs approval. so i'll go to your new address for the horse and you get your problem so you will receive those rooms. the whole point was compressed and was sunny. do you could use your zip code here to pick it up? oh, just because i'll explain it to but it's, it's your heart beat it just because of these 2 should lots of good to to be a new story at the close some of those orders for the, for the president give a don't forget to be sure to go literally sugar within a month to talk a little hard for quarter if you're available to do program is usually it is only reduced lunches, you will go when you move the your cheapest because of all this is one of the telephone is came out this pressure on your watch list just

below to show everything but the new position besides. so which way, let's do it. so this is board. so regression serious, it's about 20 watts. if you most certainly get you back to put the unit for us to pick. he's pretty sure for the right seduce, increase your boss before you go to. it seems like split to be a whole but a short us be or point bought at the front and what was that? you got it then you might have the same. what was different, gosh, those that god choose. so conscious of what you might want to see, what is doing, what we the way mice, the, the page of the lease. i used to be the next group,

public youth movement activist. she has now left the organization because she doesn't want to put any of her comm rates endangered. the people who say they have her father have blackmail her with his death. if she doesn't send them the entire database and the old members of this youth movement that she belonged to, onto the some of those. and he has moved pairing dawn. yes. since he was born he has been fighting since november 8th, 2022. he already has a war injury. my was lost to download the database and of the use move meant the activities. but i didn't do it because i realized that even with my father's life on the line, he would have just scolded me for leaking until on all guys. he told me from childhood to never give up my own. i never given lisa and her family have asked to make this story public in hopes that it would raise global awareness on the methods used by ukrainian security services and hopefully keep her father alive for

a prisoner exchange. her story on at sam's by the key of regina, the recruits under, as children in russia, is just one of many. during the 20 years of hostilities in the don bass, there have been recorded cases of under age citizens being recruited by ukraine for the purpose of using them and sabotage operations and terrorist acts. ukrainian special services have used various methods of pressure, including intimidation, blackmail, and threats. to the lives of both children and their relatives. these actions constitute a serious violation of international norms and are contrary to the principles of humanity and the protection of children's rights. the manipulation and recruitment of miners by armed groups is a form of psychological violence. the russian government has already responded to the atrocious pursuit of children by foreign agents for war. and it's for arms. as notices have now been sent to schools across the country for a month,

all 3 of our to the next group, public. the to our boss in space craft is successfully returned to us with 3 crew members from the international space station either so use capsule was carrying olive oil. they know britzky of russia. lol hari, all the united states. and most notably the 1st female customer, not from bella. reeves marina by c ds client. now you landed in the central asian nation of catholic stand with which russia has close ties. of the international space station is mainly a collaboration of united states and boston crews. 7 people are currently on board, the operating number 33 from dosher, 3 from the united states, and one from jeremy. and i see a big now how see you in less than 30 minutes by the

there's an old adage at least here in the united states, that there's no such thing as bad press. well, that's not the case. if you're boeing, the giant american aircraft manufacturer, boeing has been in the news a lot literally, and none of that news has been good. i'm not talking just about the companies $737.00, max h, crashing and killing everybody on board. i'm talking about other issues in one case, part of the fuselage broke off a plane in mid flight to creating a gaping hole in the side that nearly sucked out a 17 year old passenger. in another case, a tire fell off a boeing plane during take off destroying a car in the airport parking lot. and in yet another, an external panel fell off a plane in mid flight and nobody even noticed it until the plane landed. and in the midst of all this, a boeing whistle blower, providing ongoing testimony on safety issues committed suicide

the in. 2 2 2 2 2 boeing has long been the largest airplane manufacturer in the world. sure. it's neck and neck with air bus for years now. but boeing also has a massive military division, providing aircraft, and aircraft parts to the us into allied military's. the company is worth a whopping $112000000000.00. boeing used to be one of those companies that literally, everybody knew and trusted. there was a time in the not too distant past when practically, every passenger plane in the united states was made by boeing. the company was the biggest employer in the us state of washington, and even the 2 senators from washington were known as the senators from boeing. but things have changed over the years. the company has faced increased competition from airbus, the european aircraft manufacturer and air bus has successfully sold plains to us

carriers along the sol domain of boeing. a few years ago the company moved much with operations to the southern us state of south carolina. because washington state is a union state and south carolina is not that way the company could pay lower wages to non union employees. things went downhill from their and it's still unclear if what boeing is seeing is a breakdown and safety, a breakdown, and leadership a break down in the manufacturing process or just plain bad luck. but whatever it is, the company is facing the prospect of billions of dollars in fines and lawsuits in the future. that is not at all break. we're happy to be joined by jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs, and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks so much for being with us. let me get out of me. i appreciate that, jamie, i'll admit that i didn't really start paying close attention to boeing until just

several years ago when to boeing 737, max a. it's crashed and killed everybody on board. we learned that there was a problem with the software and try as they might, the pilots could not regain control of the aircraft as they, as they plunged to the ground lawsuits against bo. and you're still pending because of those crashes. at 1st, the company blamed the pilots, but they finally admitted that it was actually a software problem. did the company been enact any policy changes to strength and safety? or did they consider the crashes a one off that didn't really need to be addressed? at least a comprehensive way. no, they actually took it very seriously because there are, this is 7 or 7 max year. it has been the fast as of, of a pain blaine series of the boeing is ever had a 737 has been a workforce in selecting sixty's. but this new max. uh, $737.00 is

a totally basically it's always new play a bunch of it's based off of the old flat sport. boeing did i have to take serious matters is i take this very seriously and take the medicine. they're all hands because they were elders, a lot of money, they're going to lose a lot of past clients in airlines. they're, they, they put in a new can be new software so, so they update the software system for the m guess they put in new pilot manuals, the training for the pilots. and then a lot of other up, some of the updates that were, i essential and making sure that this didn't happen again. but these, these issues came from the fact that boeing tried to rush to the system and make the fine get out faster. they, they should have, i see, it seems like since the time of those, those 2 crashes now about 7 years ago, that safety is just gotten worse at boeing. i'm not talking about a simple software problem. i'm talking about overall safety. and indeed,

the national transportation safety board issued a statement in january of this year saying that the onus was on boeing not on the n t s b b and t is b statement said very, very plainly, we are not bowing safety department. i can't imagine a clear signal to the company to get its act together. but what, what happened next? well, i mean, it clearly there's an ongoing trouble. they, they, they dropped off the head of some symbolic people, including the ceo. but at the same time, don't feel sorry for him. he got this extraordinary good adult in paris you. i, betty. so it wasn't like he was just based on his other wrote it, but somebody in a few other people and i have not ever really seen or heard of anybody being checking the child accountable or have trouble it if i add a seriously, how would you know that as a, uh, at boeing, there should be more people, there should be more oversight. i think a lot of people, you know,

into the schuman nature with, when you have time between is interaction. people just start to forget, it's not that they're not, they don't care or they're not. they don't want to pay attention, but they have to go about to wash them to get the work they've got. it's a big you move over your head 3 because all those kinds of things. and so this track goes into the back back or done the bag or, or mine until another incident happens right now. um, unfortunately, well, unfortunately because of the pin demick. uh, a lot of this was put on the back door it people's mind because they had so much of other things on their light. um and i think it's safe to say though we're looking at where this is are coming from. because some of the top down i don't care who is saying that, you know, and who is actually doing the work on the board. the guys i think the women on the floor of the factory or got the ones who are making a decision. hey, listen, i get this finder was designed this thing some,

some grad differently or less to do a half crap job because they are put under a lot of pressure. a bit early followed orders. they are, they're there, they're soldiers in this thing. they're not the leaders right, you need to go after. ready leadership jimmy, just in the early part of 2024. we've seen more than a dozen safety incidents with boeing. everything from tires falling off to parts of the fuselage, blowing off to electrical outages and even engine fires. am i incorrect in thinking that this looks like a systemic breakdown and maintenance, maintenance, and safety even? how can something like this happen almost every day? and why is that happening to boeing and not to other manufacturers are right 0. i go to minus the night my to my is on this one. um you can say that these are just horrible coincidences that have happened. and also a lot of these things that you've mentioned are more of an airline problem than

a barbara. we're following all the sort of balance. those things are maintenance issues and problems can happen whenever you have a humans and body situation. you have cuban air and that's the number one cause of axes. and this is an incidence is and so that is where i would really concentrate on, on the sage of procedures in the true, in the training that these people are getting. are they getting to proper training? are they being properly supervised? is their proper check of their work? i think that the airlines and others have tried to cut back and cut back cause because profit is much more important. now as i say that they want to cause a crash that they don't want to dressed as a truck, a crash is very expensive to them both as far as the monetary but it was, they would monitor only as far as just the cost of it that way, but also the costs of their reputation. so i'm with, but with boeing's,

other part or i just think that the main problem is what is all going on is that they have that everybody's really focused. like right now, i think these a lot of these things happen all the time anyway, but everybody's really, really focused on the n t s b statement that it's not boeing, safety department in mind. what do you think happens next? i can't imagine the government just trust boeing to do the right thing. what's the process of oversight that we should expect to see for you see with this entire process and the way to think they've been doing it for the last decade or 2. maybe a little bit more, they've had this on this relationship where if he does not have the resources to be able to monitor everything, as you probably should, is really able to excuse me, is really not able to to do that. so, but that's good. created this deal with boeing, where they would share responsibility and going with self reports. yes. now this is

completely when a 110 percent, depending on trust. and now there's that trust has been broken and in the boeing is proven to be a bad player in this. so you have, uh, you know, this is backslash going on. now at the same job, boeing, you said it's always been getting away with murder because everybody has to be paying attention. you could also say that some of the people that are f a that were supposed to be watching them. and being oversight, have we're not doing their job properly because guess why they wouldn't find a job with boeing, actually love to have that believe if a so there's a lot of, uh, chevy, odds here that need to be flushed out and get to the bottom of this because ultimately at the end of the day we're talking about we're talking about people safety and their lives. in the number 2, we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs across america. when people are around the world, without a doubt, jamie finch, former national transportation safety board officials stay right there. of the

story gets darker. we're going to continue our conversation about the safety of boeing right after a short break. you're going to want to stay tuned. the, the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry

onto we're speaking with jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks again for being with us. sure. many of us were appalled when we learned of the death of boeing, whistleblower john. mitch barnett. he oversaw a dozen safety inspectors at the boeing manufacturing plant in south carolina. boeing had moved production of the 787 dreamliner to south carolina. at least he says, to get away from the machine is to union. the problem was that there weren't enough qualified machinist in south carolina, and barnett soon said that his job was a nightmare. can you lay the groundwork for us here? what was the nature of the problem that barnett encountered early on as well? i mean it's just like i said, i mean they don't do it to me or personally, i don't blame boeing from. ready being to the state, whether there was they was on union for they need to be more prepared for this

because if they don't think they're going to have the employees down there and it should be able to do to properly, it may change or their factory and their quality of their product, that's a huge back mistake on their part and that right there. i mean like i said, i don't have a problem with their moving and try to save money. but. ready the same time they're trying to move, they save money at the cost of safety. um, it is great for south carolina is great to see the jobs coming into the south is, is great to see a, the wells make sure if you will, in other states. but at the same time, you've got to have the resources, the tools, the people, to, to be able to support a brand. and most of this is very necessary to train them properly. i don't care how, what level is trained them properly. barnett said that in the washington manufacturing facility, each safety inspector was in charge of supervising 15 mechanics in south carolina. each safety inspector was supervising 50 mechanics and many of those mechanics he

said, were working in restaurants a month earlier. can not possibly be true or, or was he exaggerating? is the root of the problem? here, as simple as the allegation of boeing did, choose profits over safety and didn't have enough qualified personnel. so i mean, i don't know, but they get the but they say it's true or not. i mean i can't get it in in a basically we can't ask them now, but it's unfortunate with it's very sad situation, but it's also very satisfactory guys. i just really, really suspect. yeah, of these co is it, is that happen much right for boy. um and uh, but after you imagine if you're going from 15 mechanics that you said that your supervisor to 50 crazy. i mean that was, that's quite true. i mean, you know, the been doing was and so it's, it's, it's really irresponsible and surely to goodness they could have found somebody

even if they had to go po somebody from airbus or something. right? fire embry or something running. some other is, bo, i mean, we can, we can brand any buttons and definitely putting in the, the, going uh, going at these universities and school and, and, and bringing in these, these young people to train them to be, you know, who are engineers to begin with, but you proud to train them in the boeing way, which i'm just here with the boy way is now, but it was, it is something that of that we need to really get. they do really need to get back to because boeing was always an engineering company. i don't want to emphasize this . that was their culture. that was their background. that was the nature of the company that they started out with from the beginning. but when they were quite or i'm sorry when they acquired mcdonald douglas in the 19 nineties and uh, for whatever reason. boeing to go on to mcdonald douglas calder, which was more about profit and bottom line. uh huh. i have no idea why they did

this, but they and they did, and i think that money motivation people start seeing the money. certainly people making the making money. and they're like, ok, well, we'll stay with this model or that is better than our model was just costing is a reward is made where is profitable before me. um, i don't care what your profit is. if you're out here selling a product, this transporting people at 35000 feet in the air going 600 miles an hour. you better have a dog going good talk. product is something that is going to be a safe and secure and something we can all feel good about getting into not trying to get a change or reply to the entries are or travel plans to get off of the plane. that's right, mich barnett was so appalled at the safety of her sites at boeing that he became a whistle blower. and he had been given testimony in the a major civil suit against the company. he had provided 2 depositions, but then earlier this year, just before he was scheduled to appear for a 3rd time to give a deposition, he killed himself in the parking lot of

a hotel. what kind of pressures do you think he must have been facing? do we know any of the details of his testimony in these depositions, or what may have driven him to, to make such a such a drastic move? well, obviously there's issues if he's raising that were very important and very relevant to what's going on. um now did you want to play devil's advocate there so so you say, oh this is somebody that was disgruntled, has extra grind. that was that i get into their job because they were having an affair which i've written somewhere. the one of the papers just got shot could be hearing it. i just thought that these because what i was reading was, this is not, this is not actually what happens like in just a problem. these are distractions. yes. so he was having an affair. he was having, he was doing this, it was a lot of, i know too much stuff talking about just get to the problem. stop trying to put to smoke string bis english, get to the problem. and um, you know, it's, it,

it makes it very scary for people who want to be with the board because you're always told, if your was a blower you're protected. mm hm. um now let's just say there's the show on. it didn't have problems and issues like in the we've all seen so as, as having to come out of the blue. but all kinds of things, so suspicious. so i mean, it has high thoughts or to i have to say that of the timing of this doesn't make any kind of sense to me if he decided be a whistle blower years ago. and then by all accounts, he had an incredible memory and was able to recall very specific dates and events that took place on those dates related to safety related to inspections. if you've already given to comprehensive depositions and you're preparing just a few days later to give a 3rd comprehensive deposition, then why? at that point, would you take your life?

the timing just doesn't make any sense to me. you know, it doesn't make any sense and then quite frankly, if you're going to do something like that with then you were upset about something else. when you break something down as a, as a client of yours, you're likely to protect what you've done. i just, i route is just it just smells so as far as, oh yeah, it just stinks. so inappropriate behaviors. i couldn't agree more. and that actually leads to another question is he was the star witness. he was the one providing the most comprehensive information. so what happens to the civil suit when all of a sudden he's not there and not only is he not there, but boeing is not going to be able to cross examine him in a court of law if this were to go to trial. now it's 5, i have no idea what the, what the, what the legal ramifications are and what the next steps are as not, and not the entire an attorney. but i can't imagine people just saying, oh well,

he's gone, we're not going to go any further into this world, right? sure. going to look at this, somebody's gonna have to pick up the manual. and you know, you're having a company that is not doing what it needs to be doing is as its responsibility in doing, you have a company that is fighting against the n t s b and resisting during those things and, and all of a sudden they can't find the, the, the records where they would, they fix the plug in the door of the repair records. i mean, hard, i mean, just as all this adds up, it's almost like a, a bad novel story into john grisham. not quite honestly. yeah. but not what it was good was that is it is, it was a, it's, they just got somebody, somebody has to pick up the black metal. and i imagine it has to be congress. you know, it is, somebody was a real authority to, to make this happen. i couldn't agree more. i couldn't agree more. and a, you know,

this is an ongoing problem all over government is it really is up to congress to provide the appropriate oversight. but then even congress as loaded as many of us, you know, tend to think that it is, they don't have the staff for comprehensive oversight. and so it's this, this cycle that just keeps rotating. let me, let me make one more observation. i'm a congress, i'm glad you brought that up, is because it, he said they don't have enough staff to angela. they don't, but the same job that we have our country is run by children. i don't, i seems like it's 12 years old and in there, but he overcharged left to right all the time. yes. and so it's really the only thing that they don't do pay a least for a relationship like, you know, i was a young kid ones. i was working in the washington, i know it works. you go to the hill, you work the hill, and then you find a project and you go get everything jobs or that's right, that's how it work. that's right. but the, the system had to do it just be staff,

the staff on congress then group capitol hill in congress have, have rotated in at least 3 times. and now there's a few. but the overwhelming majority is all these people have no corporate knowledge in memory of what is going on. yeah, so true. is there any momentum now for safety changes at boeing? jamie, do you think the company has finally hit bottom and can begin repairing itself and, and will the government ensure that improvements actually are implemented? i think that delay, you're going to see improvements with boeing and, and in getting them to do stuff. the bottom line is money that has the airlines, the airlines are binder products. guess what? you've got a problem that you are going to be losing billions and billions of dollars and, and let's remember that, as you mentioned early on at the beginning of the interview, boeing has

a huge presence in defense of the huge, really huge and, and that's where their bread and butter really is now right, but their reputation part is. ready on in the commercial airspace area, because not a lot of people don't know what they do in, in defense space. those types of things. is there a really involved? yeah. and so it's just about aviation, you know, planes, course of wides commercial aircraft is also about the defense issues be a huge, huge contract. and, you know, they've got to get to the point where they are stopping the bleeding of money. and that's what is going to drain them dry so they don't get into a controller. that's right. jamie finch is a former national transportation safety board official. thank you for your take on boeing and on the death of miss barnett. so ryan appleton, a british safety adviser,

one said safety is not an intellectual exercise to keep us in work. it is a matter of life and death. it is the sum of our contributions to safety management that determines whether the people we work with live or die. he was right, of course. now we'll see if boeing can live by those words. i want to thank our guest, jamie finch for helping us to understand this complex problem. and thanks to our viewers too, for joining us for another episode with the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 the what is a part of the, the employee would posted isn't the deepest view of us and building the word or is it something deeper or complex might be present good? let's stop without cases. let's go out of or

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