and she's like zimbabwe all, we're going to be seeing more divide in the country when he comes financially. i mean, you know, i was told about the potential, the brakes currency. we're looking at african countries basing them money on the gold stuff is, is gold solid forever? i mean, a bit of upon that, but i mean, is it, is it something that people can really guides of, you know, put the box behind. yeah, i mean that's, again, that's kind of itself questionnaire out because i get a go, i'm not a goat expert, but what i would say about gold is whether it's life cycle. it is always proven to be an effective store of value vitamin. right. okay. and why is that story valley? that's probably another question. but yeah, i mean, if we look at people, the book goes even 10 years ago. they didn't pretty fine right now. right. all right. all right, we're gonna have to leave it there. chris, i am the economy expert as low as pleasure, sir. thank you so much for joining me here in the see to thanks again to hi rob. some of this news out interesting. it was part of the space station we have the

economy is in my way, did check out all see the come up to really interesting. so is that also when we back in about 30 minutes, we have told us the, there's an old adage at least here in the united states, that there is no such thing as bad press. well, that's not the case. if you're boeing, the giant american aircraft manufacturer, boeing has been in the news a lot lately, and none of that news has been good. i'm not talking just about the companies $737.00, max h, crashing and killing everybody on board. i'm talking about other issues in one case, part of the fuselage broke off a plane in mid flight creating a gaping hole in the side that nearly sucked out

a 17 year old passenger. in another case, a tire fell off a boeing plane during take off destroying the car in the airport parking lot. and then yet another, an external panel fell off a plane in mid flight and nobody even noticed it until the plane landed. and in the midst of all this, a boeing whistle blower, providing ongoing testimony on safety issues committed suicide. the . 2 2 2 2 2 boeing has long been the largest airplane manufacturer in the world. sure. it's not connect with air bus for years now. but boeing also has a massive military division, providing aircraft, and aircraft parts to the us and to allied military's. the company is worth a whopping $112000000000.00. boeing used to be one of those companies that literally ever everybody knew and trusted. there was a time in the not too distant past when practically,

every passenger plane in the united states was made by boeing. the company was the biggest employer in the us state of washington. and even the 2 senators from washington were known as the senators from boeing. but things have changed over the years. the company has faced increased competition from airbus, the european aircraft manufacturer and air bus has successfully sold plains to us carriers along the sol domain of boeing. a few years ago the company moved much of its opperation to the southern us state of south carolina. because washington state is a union state and south carolina is not that way the company could pay lower wages to non union employees. things went downhill from there. it's still unclear if what boeing is seeing is a breakdown and safety, a breakdown, and leadership a breakdown in the manufacturing process or just plain bad luck. but whatever it is, the company is facing the prospect of billions of dollars in fines and lawsuits in

the future. that is not at all break. we're happy to be joined by jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs, and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks so much for being with us. and if you haven't me, i appreciate that jimmy. i'll admit that i didn't really start paying close attention to boeing until just several years ago when to boeing 737, max a. it's crashed and killed everybody on board. we learned that there was a problem with the software and try as they might. the pilots could not re gain control of the aircraft as they, as they plunged to the ground. lawsuits against boeing are still pending because of those crashes. at 1st, the company blamed the pilots, but they finally admitted that it was actually a software problem. a, did the company then and after any policy changes to strength and safety, or did they consider the crashes a one off that didn't really need to be addressed at least a comprehensive way?

no, they actually took it very seriously because there are, this is 7 or 7 max year. it has been the fast as of, of a pain blaine series of the boeing has ever had a 7. 37 has been a workforce in selecting sixty's. but this new max uh, 737 is a totally basically its always new play. a bunch is based off of the old flat sport . boeing, did i have to take serious matters is i take this very seriously and take the motors in your own hands because they were elders, a lot of money to run your lives. a lot of passions of clients in airlines. they're, they, they put in a new can buy a new software system, they update the software system for the m guess they put in new pilot manuals. the training for. ready pilots and then a lot of other up some of the updates that were i essential and making sure that this didn't happen again. but these,

these issues came from the fact that boeing tried to rush to the system and make the fine get out faster. they, they should have, i see, it seems like since the time of those, those 2 crashes now about 7 years ago, that safety is just gotten worse at boeing. i'm not talking about a simple software problem. i'm talking about overall safety. and indeed, the national transportation safety board issued a statement in january of this year saying that the onus was on boeing not on the n t s b b a t s b statement said very, very plainly, we are not bowing safety department. i can't imagine a clear signal to the company to get its act together. a 5 what, what happened next? well, i mean, it clearly there's an ongoing pro. they, they, they dropped off their head, some symbolic people, including the ceo. but at the same time, don't feel sorry for him. he got this extraordinary good goal in paris you. i bet

it wasn't like he was just based on the side the road. it but some of the few other people and i have not ever really seen or heard of anybody being checking the child accountable or hotels. ready if i add a seriously, how would you on will that as a boeing there shouldn't be more people, there should be more oversight. i think a lot of people, you know, ensure the shipment that you with when you have time between and is interaction people just start to forget it's not that they're not, they don't care or they're not. they don't want to pay attention, but they have to go about to wash them to get the work they've got the big you move over your head feeder gets all those kinds of things. and so this truck goes into the back burner on the back burner of their mind until. busy another incident happens right now, unfortunately, well, unfortunately because of the pen demik, a lot of this was put on, on the back or people's minds because they had so much of other things on the

invite. and i think it's safe to say though, we're looking at where this is all coming from. it comes from the top down. i don't care who is saying that, you know, and who is actually doing the work on the board. the guys, i think the women on the floor of the factory are not the ones who are making a decision. hey, listen mega. this finder was designed this thing some, some grad, differently or less to do a have crept job because they are put under a lot of pressure. a bit early followed orders. they are, they're there, they're soldiers in this thing. they're not the leaders, right? you need to go out your. ready leadership jimmy, just in the early part of 2024. we've seen more than a dozen safety incidents. we've built everything from tires falling off to parts of the fuselage, blowing off to electrical outages and even engine fires. am i incorrect in thinking that this looks like a systemic breakdown and maintenance, maintenance and safety even? how can something like this happened almost every day?

and why is that happening to boeing and not to other manufacturers? right. you know, i went to mine on the night my, to my is on this one. so you can say that these are just horrible coincidences that have happened. and also a lot of these things that use mentioned are more of an airline problem. then they bought dry, we'll following all the sort of balance, those things are maintenance issues and problems can happen whenever you have a human to involve the situation, give human error and that's the number one cause of axes. and this is a incidences. and so that is where i would really concentrate on, on the sage of procedures in the true, in the training that these people are getting. are they getting to proper training? are they being properly supervised? is their proper check of their work? i think that the airlines and others have tried to cut back and cut that cause

because profit is more, more important. now as i say that they want it cause a crash that they don't want to dressed as a truck, a crash is very expensive to them. both as far as the monetary, but it was a monitor early as far as just the cause of it that way, but also the cost of their reputation. so i was boeing's, other part, or i just think that the main problem is what is all going on is that they have that everybody's really focused. like right now. i think these a lot of these things happen all the time anyway. but everybody's really, really focused on the n t s b statement that it's not boeing, safety department in mind. what do you think happens next? i can't imagine the government just trust boeing to do the right thing. what's the process of oversight that we should expect to see for you see with this entire process and the way to think they've been doing it for the last decade or 2?

maybe a little bit more. they've had this on this relationship where if he does not have the resources to be able to monitor everything, as you probably should, is really able to excuse me, is really not able to, to do that. so that, that's gonna create this deal with boeing where they would share responsibility and going with self reports. yes. now this is completely when a 110 percent, depending on trust. and now there's that trust has been broken and it, and boeing is proven to be a bad player in this. so you have, uh, you know, this is backslash going on. now at the same job, boeing, you said it's always been getting away with murder because everybody has to be paying attention. you could also say that some of the people that are f a that were supposed to be watching them. and being oversight, have we're not doing their job properly because guess why they wouldn't find a job with boeing, actually love to have that believe if a so there's a lot of of,

of dekalb yachts here that need to be flushed out and get to the bottom of this because ultimately at the end of the day we're talking about we're talking about people safety and their lives. is number 2, we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs across america when he'd been around the world without a doubt. jamie finch, former national transportation safety board official stay right there. of the story gets darker. we're going to continue our conversation about the safety of boeing right after a short break. you're going to want to stay tuned. the. 2 the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really would say better wills. and

is it just because it shows you few fractured images presented as but can you see through their illusions, going underground can is already those lines. as can be started by line, please can be satisfied for the importance of we can never be of a station. so that transparency is extraordinary. john mystic, patrice then just succeeded in finding documents that existed in making them available to the world public. i mean, what could be more than that? but publishing information and sharing information with the public. he was exercising the rights for a speech he did so in the public interest was to so long realized pen smith and

dolphin, and honestly of late continuously. and i know why advice may know who is the guy that illegal anymore wisely bought. adjustments for to be on box weighing a 175 used to go through the sentence. all we're going to let that stay the father of the let me read your lowest points of view of the stuff for the for the new issue a vehicle currently in the

motion store slid or the for the money isn't done less seriously and which is going to stay on the or the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with jamie finch. he's the former director of government, public and family affairs and of the communication center at the federal government's national transportation safety board. jamie, thanks again for being with us. sure. many of us were appalled when we learned of

the death of boeing, whistleblower john mitch barnett. he oversaw a dozen safety inspectors at the boeing manufacturing plant in south carolina. boeing had moved production of the 787 dreamliner to south carolina. at least, he says, to get away from the machine is to union. the problem was that there weren't enough qualified machinist in south carolina, and barnett soon said that his job was a nightmare. can you leave the ground work for us here? what was the nature of the problem that barnett encountered early on as well? i mean, it's just like i said, i mean they don't do it to me or personally, i don't blame boeing from. ready going to say whether there was they was on union, but they need to be more prepared for this because they don't think they're going to have the employees down there. and it should be able to do to properly maintain their, their factory and their quality of their product. that's a huge back mistake on their part. and that right there. i mean, like i said, i don't have

a problem with their moving and try to say maybe. ready the same time they're trying to move, they save money at the cost of safety. um it is great for south carolina is great to see the jobs coming into the south. um, it is great to see uh the wells, make sure if you will, in other states, but at the same time you've got to have the resources, the tools, the people to, to be able to support it. right. and, and also this is very necessary to train them properly. i don't care how, what level is to train them properly. barnett said that in the washington manufacturing facility, each safety inspector was in charge of supervising 15 mechanics in south carolina. each safety inspector was supervising 50 mechanics and many of those mechanics he said, were working in restaurants a month earlier, can not possibly be true or, or was he exaggerating? is the root of the problem? here as simple as the allegation of boeing did choose prophets over safety and

didn't have enough qualified personnel. so i mean, i don't know, but they get the but they say it's true or not. i mean, i can't get in and i actually, we can't ask him. now that is unfortunate with is very sad situation, but he's also very suspect. our guys, i just really, really suspect. yeah. of these co is it, is that happen much right for boy and a but to ask, can you imagine if you're going from 15, the mechanics that you said you supervising 250 crazy. i mean that has, that's quite true. i mean, you know, because we haven't been doing all those. and so it's, it's, it's really irresponsible and surely to goodness they could have found somebody even if they had to go post somebody from airbus or something. right. fire embry, years of age running. some other is, bo, i mean, think we can, we can bring in any buttons and definitely putting in the, the, going uh,

going at these universities and school and, and, and bringing in these, these young people to train them to be, you know, who are engineers to begin with, but you proud to train them in the boeing way, which i'm just here with the boy way is now, but it was, it is something that, that we need to really get. they really need to get back to because boeing was always an engineering company. i don't want to emphasize this. that was their culture. that was their background. that was the nature of the company that they started out with from the beginning. but when they were quite or i'm sorry when they acquired mcdonald douglas in the 1990. for whatever reason, boeing to join the mcdonald, douglas calder, which was more about profit and bottom line. uh huh. i have no idea why they did this, but they and they did. and i think that money motivation people start seeing the money. certainly people making the making money and they're like, ok, well we'll stay with this small are better than our model was just costly as a reward is made. where is profitable before i don't care what your profit is. if

you're out here selling, i like tronic this transporting people at 35000 feet in the air going 600 miles an hour. you better have a dog on good black product. it's something that is going to be a safe and secure and something we can all feel good about getting into not trying to get our or change our flights and entries are or travel plans to get off of that plane. that's right. mich barnett was so appalled at the safety over sites at boeing that he became a with to blower. and he had been given testimony in this major civil suit against the company he had provided to depositions, but then earlier this year, just before he was scheduled to appear for a 3rd time to give a deposition, he killed himself in the parking lot of a hotel what kind of pressures do you think he must have been facing? do we know any of the details of his testimony in these depositions or what may have driven him to to make such such a drastic move?

well, obviously there's issues if he's raising that, were very important and very relevant to what is going on. now, did you want to play devil's advocate? there's those who say, oh, this is somebody that was describe all that had an extra guide that was that i get into their job because they were having an affair which i've written somewhere. one of the papers, jessica shocker be hearing it. i just thought that these, because what i was reading was, this is not, this is not for actually what happens is i can use the problem. these are distractions. yes. so he was having an affair. he was having, he was doing this. it was a lot of, i know too much stuff talking about just get to the problem. stop trying to put to smoke string this image get to the problem. and um, you know, it's, it, it makes it very scary for pete. ready who want to be a whistle blower because you always told if your was a blower you're protected. mm hm. um now as i said, the show and it did have problems and issues like in the bossing. so as,

as having to come out of the blue. but the kinds of things so suspicious. oh, i mean it has, i thought so too. i have to say that of the timing of this doesn't make any kind of sense to me if he decided to be a whistle blower years ago. and by all accounts, he had an incredible memory and was able to recall very specific dates and events that took place on those dates related to safety related to inspections. if you've already given 2 comprehensive depositions and you're preparing just a few days later to give a 3rd comprehensive deposition, then why? at that point, would you take your life? the timing just doesn't make any sense to me? no, it doesn't make any sense. and then quite frankly, if you're going to do something like that within you were upset about something else. when you write something down as a, as a point of your like it lead lead to protect what you've done. i just,

i route is just it just smells so as far as, oh yeah, it just thinks the inappropriate behaviors. i couldn't agree more. and that actually leads to another question is he was the star witness. he was the one providing the most comprehensive information. so what happens to the civil suit when all of a sudden he's not there and not only is he not there, but boeing is not going to be able to cross examine him in a court of law if this were to go to trial. now what size? so i have no idea what the, what the, what the legal ramifications are and what the next steps are as not, and not be in for an attorney. but i can't imagine people just saying, oh well, he's gone, we're not going to go any further into this where it would rush. you're going to look at this, somebody's gonna have to pick up the manual. and you know, you're having a company that is not doing what it needs to be doing is,

is as its responsibility in doing, you have a company that is fighting against the n t s b resisting during those things and, and all of a sudden they can't find the, the, the records where they would, they had fixed the plug in the door and the, the repair records. i mean, on, i mean, just as all this adds up, it's almost like a, a bad novel story into john grisham. not quite honestly. yeah. but not what it was good was, but is it is, it was a, it's, they just got somebody, somebody has to pick up the black metal. and i imagine it has to be congress. you know, it is, somebody was a real authority to, to make this happen. i couldn't agree more. i couldn't agree more. and, you know, this is an ongoing problem all over government is it really is up to congress to provide the appropriate oversight. but then even congress as loaded as many of us,

you know, tend to think that it is, they don't have the staff for comprehensive oversight. and so it's this, this cycle that just keeps rotating. the one we're observation, the congress. i'm glad you brought that up. is because he said the don't have enough staff into it. they don't. but the same job that we have our country's run by children. i think what is called the results and and they're being overturn, left to right all the time. yes. and so it's really the only thing that they don't do pay a lot of the stuff or a relationship like, you know, i was a young kid ones. i'm just worried washington, i know it works. you go to the hill, you work the hill and then you find the contact and you go get their big jobs or that's right. that's how it worked. that's right. but this because, you know, since you can do it to the staff, the staff on congress thing through capitol hill in congress have, have rotated in at least 3 times. and now there's a few. but the overwhelming majority is all these people have no corporate

knowledge in memory of what is going on. yeah, so true. is there any momentum now for safety changes at boeing? jamie, do you think that company has finally hit bottom and can begin repairing itself and, and will the government ensure that improvements actually are implemented? i think that delay, you're going to see improvements with boeing and, and in getting them to do stuff is bottom line is money that has the airlines, the airlines are binder products. guess what? you've got a problem that you are going to be losing billions and billions of dollars and, and let's remember that, as you mentioned early on at the beginning of the interview, boeing has a huge presence in defense of that huge, really huge and, and that's where their bread and butter really is now right, but their registration part is. ready on in the commercial airspace area, because not a lot of people don't know what they do in,

in defense of space. those types of things. is there a really involved? yeah. and so it's just about aviation, you know, planes, commercial flights, commercial aircraft is also about the defense issues. be a huge, huge of contracts. and, you know, they've got to get to the point where they are stopping the bleeding of money. and that's what is going to drain them dry so they don't get into a controller. that's right. jamie finch is a former national transportation safety board official. thank you for your take on boeing and on the death of mitch barnett. so ryan appleton, a british safety advisor, one said safety is not an intellectual exercise to keep us in work. it is a matter of life and death. it is the sum of our contributions to safety management that determines whether the people we work with live or die. he was right, of course. now we'll see if boeing can live by those words. i want to thank our

guest, jamie finch for helping us to understand this complex problem. and thanks to our viewers too, for joining us for another episode with the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 the the, what is part of the, the employee would post good isn't the deepest view of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present. let's stop without pleases. let's go products as the site is the useful they love that

the media does a yeah. which one i was because of the of the associated vehicle. got you to go into it to you and you're doing the properties. is that best? let's just put on the since i see the 1st place, because i have some students go to both of them. the media to decide that that goes what it is. uh my your, it was the one year that it was already sites, so conflicted springs bits. use it up a vehicle. was that glitched? i know got all the the

headlines this our a my us like in a neil temporarily. holt's very un security council. the thing about the parts of living until the end of the educate sion is you're making the good, i'm sure the pro 5 seeing running a health drives the move them well the last fine in rome, i got the feed smooth deals with news goals and death as the falls, 33000 a dime, the incense of a rush of policy over a 1000 people to flee from a day to day in the state of emergency.