the to discuss these issues and more enjoyed by my guess, martin j america. she's an award winning journalist, and commentator. and in budapest we bustle. jordan samuel, we use a pod cast where the gabble, which we thought on youtube and levels, are a gentleman call samples and effects. that means you can jump any time you want that. i always appreciate it. all right, it's good. george in budapest it's, it's really remarkable watching the course of this complex and how the west has changed its rhetorical focus like narrative of every everyone wants to support you . great of course is going to win because it has um, the, the moral spirit. you know, the current job because of the training and selzer in society or the responsible states have had a lot of books. ukraine is already was in the 1st few weeks ago. okay. and then, and, you know, as long as it takes, okay. and now over the last guy would say 2 weeks. so, well, you know,

the of the premium, so just follow up there on the borders that nato gave them in the train and, you know, and then biding says, well, the book is already lost. you know, there's, they've already lost what, so they're trying to book and it now say to me, whatever happens, i look into why it's not on false. george? yes, the question that's, that's always the american motif, the own. what are the ally, you know, who was the united states, the pictures it's wagon, it always turns out that it's just not really worthy of, uh, american, the help and support. so we know we have that. the south in the me is where it goes to useless, you know, and then you know, we had the great is a, in the, in the 1st of all were useless. the afghani is we useless, everybody's always useless. and so there is this theme, my, why are you bring it in? i think, well, it's a little bit much. i mean, you have a photo of it. is anybody in but 70 is a and you're telling us that we're not fighting properly, you know, but you know,

you know, bradley bradley down in a backpack and fight alongside those, but it doesn't work as a well, we don't really want to do that. so yeah, i mean, the, the, all sorts of, uh, confusing messages that are coming out from uh, the administration. but there are also these confusing messages. but other coming out about the some go to negotiations that are going on. um, in the background um no into that. that'd be in the number of stores the stores and like nbc, about these negotiations, x u. s. officials talking to ty level uh russians and then um we, we, we, we now have another story about this. uh and the go see that i, i know buying it. i don't think of these and these are serious because ultimately, the rule that is going on is good for the united states. the united states isn't losing anything. and, and it is the russians are dying gradients of mine. i don't see any incentive to be

honest. um for the united states to uh, to bring it this doing in so doing the, the, the, the stories that are kind of wishful thinking. well this is what i would do a power rational person which is true. but i don't think that that's necessarily how the, by the administration is thinking it's such an interesting way to phrase that because the ultimate goal is okay. maybe ukraine isn't going to win, but he can still keep fighting martin. i mean, it's, it's an interesting thing here is that is what you know is the main, the outcome will there be, will be, and negotiated outcome, but some new thing to, that's making it into the narrative. but in the meantime, in the meantime, for us is not going to pursue any kind of negotiations or whatnot. just for the reason the george said, i mean, you know, it's been a lot of money, a lot of taxpayer money. i mean, this is a, a conflict against russia on the cheap martin guys. i'm going to disagree with both of you. i'm really, i'm really sorry. i think that st. joe's digital. so i think there is an incentive

to buy and 6 to, to stop this will, i think he's starting to wake up to the realities that he called wrong in the, in this is re election campaign. i'm starting from next somebody just called face boat is particularly blue called folks just and have this in mind. the living experience in the non here hang on here is i think it's pretty obvious that the trump base may agree with that. but i think you would still agree this is very much a bi partisan endeavor. i mean, getting an inspector general. i mean, that was by far to sit in the senate. okay. no, we're not going to happen because the price of the buying doesn't want it. that was by part, is that okay, keep going. well, i say we're living in a, we're living in a scenario to our no realities. we're living in a truman show kind of a movie says, web i, you know, on the, on the face of it, do you have officials like could be, and others who us thing you know, um, in the most states you have and then when the new tons of law suite,

there was some back pedaling. there was some admissions that was not feeling very well, but then we should hang in there and we should push all reserves, though you claim is up to the front line, a disaster this tax exam bite in the same contents lost the war. how many people actually bull into the, you know, think what's going on on the power bill to, to tackle george's assertion, had only thing was going on on a power level and secretaries, i think there are tools going on because i think the light and does want to get out of this well, i really do think he does and i think, yeah, one of the things been troubling me about this. um this uh this, that in this scenario, all of your findings on it, i'm going to show, you know, think about that. how does that happen? how do we get into that situation? the 1st place out of the best miniature brands in the pentagon, in january of this year or december, did not clam the scenario and say, hey guys, what's going to run quite low and about may of june, should not make preparations for it. now i'm sure they did, i'm sure they contacted to the bottom administration and they didn't get very clear

on so from the buttons administration. but to tackle this, if you want, just supply the things with the munition. even though the very easy, you don't even need to use your own. american stokes are plenty of allies around the world. they're playing stuff close around the world. yeah, it doesn't even need to be american where you could, i didn't buy chinese on see the engine. so don't, don't buy into this, you're going to run it, i'm going to should, i think they will let, i think, i think they were allowed to fall into this pay because i really do believe the board and bought some of the will. and i read you believe in the leave to political commentators. uh okay. and it does the fact that they couldn't plan for this doesn't surprise me. i think they believe that the sanctions would have done the job. and them, you know, and good story here. but they kind of go and go back to george. but, but george, it doesn't really matter because is you, ross is already lost, the more that's the new narrative. okay. so, i mean, it was, we did everything we could do. you just as you said, you know, it's liskey and his people. i mean, we, you know, we, we, you know,

nothing about ukraine without your brain. they're doing their own thing here. i think that, you know, this going on the cheap here. and then of course, blame the use of it and then they get really the europeans didn't step up. george, they just didn't do enough. okay. i think there's plenty of ways for them to rationalize, which is like the hunter bite and story if they have that. um, agreement go through, they say it's spoken to this is over no more investigations. we don't have a big live in the pseudo reality, george. but i think so, i think that the, this provides them with an escape hatch that if things go wrong, then to say what it was really the brand new and sole, but full full of they didn't take our advice. and again, they, they miss use the, the web and really we gave them, you know, a by 5 to many shells. and it was around a, i, a, i'm actually not buying into the story that they're running out of shows. i mean with this happens in every will, every what we hear about, oh the sure there's a shortage of the, i'll tell her it shows a show. did you mind me?

there's a at this during the one that was a big, big issue and, well, well, well, hey, we're running out of, um, uh, auto rate. what, what are we going to do about this? so the, the question then is, is what's the incentive for the united states to, to bring this to an end. i'm not buying this thing about the, the us, the likes on the us selection is like, it's a long way off. yeah, i'm really blue ways. it's the domestic issues that the privilege there is more or less a consensus among most the candidates that, hey, this is a good rule and then we should keep it going with true about with trump. so i, you know, i don't think biden is worried about the election by the, is worried about getting into a direct shooting hole with russia. i think that's a different issue. so in biden said, no, do nato membership with ukraine. i mean, he did it because a, if your brain is joins nature, where on the, which what journey just reinforces that this is the way, the but they,

by administrative just by doing this work, we're going to let them do all the fighting for us in, in the in the dump, the market, it says they get not having ukraine in nato. it gets, gets beat out in the states again, off the hook. ok. we're not responsible for that country security. ok, discrete, they have the best of all possible worlds here, which in the then means the destruction it'd be crane. the very purpose of this policy was the parties for us. it's not your brain mart. so there's another theory which is being funded about which i comp claim credit for, which is another reason why i didn't refuse to let the grant. and so nature is to keep the as a bargaining chip. so when you finally do, when do funding negotiate with the russians, you've got something quite strong on your side, but to take george's point, i don't think it's exclusively. i don't think it's only the buttons as worried about elections and how you sell this, this massive, unprecedented amount of ministry spending in a country that probably 99 percent of americans co signed to the map of the well,

i think is more than that. i think it's getting increasingly worried about china, and i don't think you can handle china any try and both on the same plate with storm policy f ups. you know, that a bummer used to was used to critics him with, you know, we should never forget that quite from, from above. my don't, you know, never underestimate binds ability to f things up. i think it's talking about foreign policy. so i think the with china threat with cheese, you know, sounding else um, delivering signals which are more robust and mobility codes every single day and basing on the drum and the tension building up the time. well, i think there is a, a need for the button administration to look for an office around and i think they're all to what's going on. i think i wouldn't be to supply the ice thing. but this is deliberate. i think since about december or january to the, with the claims were deliberately allowed to run out of them initial to create this low because you call them negotiations with the russians when you also rent a 1000. 02000, a 155 millimeter shows after you have to, you know, look for

a natural pool, is a natural impact so low in the war. and i think that's, i'm is the moment right now to do that. so i think we should, we shouldn't dismiss. all right, we're enjoyed all by triple. why would the russians in a meeting gauge and negotiations at all? any other than a back channel thing that we're not gonna use nukes, we could all agree. we're not going to do that, but other than that, what would the russians be interested in? go ahead martin. well, i think um, uh, the comments, but edward looked fuck recently. we're very interested in his theory. the, the great job, let's go, let us know that his theory is that the russian central bank go from the set to page and look, thanks a very good. remember we've got inflation on the control. we've got inflation at a so dream level. but most europeans cannot even spent as low as about the countless river. so there's an economical aspect to this whole thing, which is the, you know, the situation, but pollutants in which is quite comfortable. it's not something that you can, you can banks, you can bank on forever, that has to be

a longer strategy. so there are incentives. the last thing for russia to look up some of the issues that i saw, the same video you did, i find them seem to be utterly completely convincing. deal with it as well as i can trace the, the kids uh the, the was possibly some sort of but general communication going on between buns and noticing the larger we have to go to a hard break. we're going to talk about the, the back channel in the 2nd half of the program. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in. we're going to come right back to stay with our team. the, the

russian states. never. i've started as soon as the most sense community best. most all sense and up in the system must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on the russia routing and split the ortiz full neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube, the services. for what question did you say a request which is the

spelling these are still. a king street the journey of developing an identity, a national identity. there's a, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media. all sorts of use and narratives have a chance to, to face and come to the floor. also has the downside in the everything is up for debate. nothing is agreed on the as soon as 2060 numerous monuments to serve as soldiers in poland, ukraine and the baltic states have been destroyed or vandalized fish their stuff by pharmacy. certainly within yeah, i'm not sure or even some others could. i ask if i'm in the field, that's the smartphone, whether it's, it's special, i'm was just putting in the police government denies the rule of soviet sonya is in the victory of a non system. and is it raising historical memories of world war to think about it

for the, for, can you please when you order? although it did seem the non survey, james, the trustees would remain, think, send people his consciousness, but have a but as long as russell phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the cost yes. to the i'll provides. i need to see thing because it looks like so i need it to produce to play the welcome back to kind of stuff. we're all things are consider 9 peter little. this is a home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real minutes the let's go back to george in budapest. ok, george, let's look at it from the other side. you know? and because i see these western elite,

so it is always kind of this fantasy unicorn wish list, you know, is that, you know, and the zip you will probably, hispanic, a lower there's, there's an instability in broad signal which is like, i don't know where they get this information from and how they draw these conclusions because, you know, you and i have been with martin and you know, we're, we're avidly covering how people cover russia and it says so fantastically wrong. most of the time is that nobody really paid much attention to it. but now let's get down to brass tax something important, this conflict in ukraine. i still to this point irrespective of the interest rate. okay. i don't see why russia has any incentive at all. everyone will have a couple of sites in the dumbass, you know, and brush will have to give up. it's a try me. and it will have to accept when you have a form of nato membership. well, why would run rushing the initiated discomfort because it wasn't getting any of those things. why wouldn't change it's mine now? george? so i think exactly. now i've seen the incense is the tool and um, in fact,

if it was to be a settlement now on the terms of which um, low black advocates and that interview referred to by nonsense um this will be a complete failure for russia because essentially, uh, russian would have to be giving up things that it actually had prior to the start of the, um, of the, the surplus special milledgeville braces that goes down. they have to agree to holding plebiscites. and you know, we know how the way these plebiscites work. i mean the, the, that it's always very questionable once laser gets involved in a plebiscite. so roughly what happens the giving up is going to end up with less then it had the 18 months ago. so i don't see any results, certainly built in conduct, survive. so if we're talking about bite and then the electron, i mean open conducts of, i a, such a, such a, a humiliation. but there is an agenda always with, with this kind of talk. and it's particularly with somebody like look like, look,

track, essentially, once a war is trying, i mean that you, you know, that, that stays obsession. i mean, he's always been an obsessive sort of fellow, and he's not his new obsession. is china. and what, how does it, how do we find china, what would the flight did using american boys? i mean, that's never really plan of any of the neo cons, what we're going to use russia and that's suite any agenda behind this as well, although, so, i mean, this guy, colby, is a ubiquitous presence on, on fox news. also, china, china, china, on the plan here is alright, let's bring this thing in your brain. so, and, and then let's use russia against china. this is going to be all kind of father, again is trying to much as it was originally when the nato expansion, the idea behind it. and george cyrus explained if they were going to use the spirit bins as count on father against russia and how we're going to use russia. that's kind of bother against china. well, i am assuming russian understands that that's the plan. but in the woods and other

things they go to by, it was, of course the, let me again with this kind of looking at western fantasies. okay. i mean, there, there is no evidence whatsoever that kind of scenario can possibly play out any storage. riley points up, why do you, why do you have, why would russia give up anything that it doesn't have to give up? okay, it may. and in a, in plus, if you look at the long term, the impact of as far as having other than the data for people of ukraine. and then the, all of the soldiers that are dying is it in europe it's, it's being the industrialized male considering everything that's been said and done . but since the end of the cold war fly would have rush to throw anyone in the west, the lifeline. i mean, i, i just don't see it. i mean there's so many things that have been said that can't be on said. and what about sanctions and all of that, do you think the americans will ever retract anything so? oh, it's very well under any circumstances. so what is rushing, get out of it?

all it has gotten is about a pack of lies and deceit. sorry, that's my opinion. glen more. all right, well, if we're going to dismiss loops, comments about russian and felicia, then there's not much left on the table in terms of what could be attracted to the region policy, which is, is an international state. he does think, but he thinks of the well doesn't think of the reach of when he did an applicant of the last week was really interesting. but we didn't get too much attention from west of me to read a whole lot of a lot of did uh, a condescending commentary, which was completely unfounded. okay i, i find that i didn't miss the inability to read the room, but just don't, can't read the room. i'm sorry about, go ahead. i think that's a good to does one face. i think the other, the does, i don't think wants to even envisage innovating. them that part of your claim is, i don't know if you're still interested in the, in the eastern european soviet motor, which didn't look just as the british colonial model. it didn't work. and people

felt sort of this down on the bill to acknowledge you know, all right and history. why the present, but let's just because it couldn't afford to run anymore. it was like owning an expensive jagger a call that you couldn't afford to fill out, you know, and i think the same argument applies to the end of the soviet union. and those countries, he doesn't love that. so relationship that's a present from this, from the kind of people he's not interested in, in, in the baby. but i think he thinks of a bigger picture, you know, and um, to go back to bite and on buttons side then the others. the other issue about, but what i think you would like to end, the war may be concentrate on the china threat. not necessarily going to what would china but use of china is a mess. if deflection is because a, a couple of emotions ever this summer be so stupid tablets, laptops should. we couldn't imagine the meetings he had in, in camp in 2015, 2016 with the um, the rest of the present to discussing the money and the bribes. and i'm about now to get this ukrainian energy company. um, uh, you know,

teamed up with an american palmer so they could have like ago i'll buttons, vice president could just have the chief persecution ukraine kicked out what she did. it could've imagined any of this coming out. and you know, and it's extraordinary how is just continuing, you know, just this week. it's now being sun. that's all i have no way to kind of be in the western media is kind of shrugged his shoulders and say, okay, all right, we'll go to the report and we believe the sol so strong. and there was study discussions about the $5000000.00 brian to each of them. we haven't got a smoking gun. we haven't got the receipts from the bank. so this miss martin, don't you think it's? it's kind of interesting. it's actually in the you bring that up because, um, you know, the, because of this growing scandal here, the, by the administration to say, well, which is already lost of all, or, you know, what's the page move on? ok, that's what they're doing. they're trying to, you know, this is a success. we are, our policy has succeeded disney, right? i mean, it's it, but testicle to, to say it out loud,

but that's what they're trying to convince people to, to store george made the, which it's, it's interesting is that they, they want this, but they still continue to think that they can bleed russia. we have to remember everyone. victoria nolan was temporarily promoted. ok, i mean for the space those looking for an offer. is that the right person to go to george? well, that's an excellent point to be the exec, and that's why i'm not buying the story of the, the, the, the back channel negotiations. because this is the person that was not only the most a logical in the state about the machine has been the driving force. only obama buying new policy toward ukraine obviously was a central figure. it was never blinked. and i mean, it was for, so to make the, i actually uh, deputy secretary of state that is a signal that there isn't going to be any trade g as in go to a preside over any change or a policy as low biden's domestic problems. well, you know what,

what do leaders do when they have major domestic problems? they huge saw so escalate was escalate complex as of there, nobody's talking about the button when, when we've got something bigger to talk about. but we had a whether you praying, maybe even probably the syria. there's the downside of that is that the budget ukraine in china, if the heads were biden's domestic problems, the unfortunately were rapidly running out of time. but i want to bring up something that i thought was interesting. is it responsible, statecraft? um, i'd like to just um, sell themselves as i thought above, i would say, and i'm not going to mention the author's name because it's really important to my point in one of their articles the last few days. it's very him, this is like, every one once you praying to win and russia to lose this token that come from

a think tank, you know, the quincy and said, yeah, i thought they were a lot of smart people. i want you crazy with that part of everyone. what kind of arrogance is that more? it's unfortunate as the subs poignant reminds of the times that we're living and it is a detachment from the inside democratic process of western countries. we don't care anymore about what our citizens think. we've been e for. consider that is even once every 4 or 5 years at the elections and the situation that we have in person with the labor and conservative. while you have an america, we, republicans and democrats, you know, people are finally beginning to wake up. it doesn't matter which party you work for anymore. you know, it's all part of the corrupt religious system. and their main purpose is to fold keep themselves in positions, getting this open jobs. and secondly, computers and disrupt the public away from ever asking any remotely intelligent questions. and i, i'm getting sick to death. i'm reading articles and the british press of them. the daily telegraph about what's going on and ukraine,

and the russian dictate to kidnapping sounds, the children you know, and then the so essential to read what was expected or could when journalist read other articles may see those words. and the 3rd paragraph, you know, you're working in a b, s of not b s, or somebody also also, it's really interesting to george right now. well, so when it comes to russia they, they never used the word led just any more, the website just i just assumed. okay, so there's no, according to the report this assignment. no, no, it's just, it's a, it's a, this babel is fact ok for the source. the, it's always given as a, as a question on question. fact the rest of the structure blue up way dialing some civilian uh oh, the sides. um. but when they report a russian denial, then they say when you of times was it was unable to independently from the

russian play. and so there's always, you know, whatever the rest to say anything but we were not able to confirm this claim, but apparently the ukrainians can complain whatever they want. and there's no need to verify anything. but it's, but those are then brought in this idea of the whenever boot is ended, they put in full sleep claimed. so it is likely the journalist just inserts his own opinion, full sleep claim because they were out of the night was full. so what, what, what, what do you, what are you basing this on what the only western media has in real time fact checking the, the back, checking as they're writing. right. let's go to your martin, go ahead. what we other on is, is there a lensky sense when you leave here, those 2 words from the bbc or into the mainstream? british press, you know, you know, your into the truman shows are and where, but so it really, very, all of us, we have enough to stick to, you know, why would you let facts done in the way of a good story? that's been the policy for so long now. you know,

people don't know. they don't know the propaganda machine that's been created by the americans, a kid. they don't know that most of the stories that we're seeing a completely fictitious and this, this has no effect. emilita checks the company, i've always said they have a white board and they just go from the next story. the next story is all planned in advance. gentleman, that's all behind we have one, i think my guess americans and booted as i want to make our viewers for watching us here at our teach. the next time we member press that the of the

i'm a film director, i've written many scripts during my career, but i thought really curious, cutting neural networks collaborate with a human to make a documentary film. bring your set up. how much of an old is the volume of cher comergence this your motion shows was more list, you know, there's what i don't know, but i would feel with a score soon as you, let's know, socal this. like, do you feel i used to be mostly positive about look a lot finally, probably for you really feel ports of literature sort of by the way we haven't introduced ourselves. i have the strangest feeling. we've met somewhere before

the the hello and welcome to was a part when i was coming of age in the early 1990 is right in the aftermath of the cold war. the biggest dream for many youngsters around the world was to get a scholarship or even a one way plane ticket to western country and never look back 30 years on many of those speakers off, greener grass or about a life of.