well i rosa this is alan, peter lavelle is on cross talk next time we'll be here in the see. get with

ah ah ah ah. hello and welcome to cross sac. were all things are considered i'm peter lavelle. the west presentation of the ukraine conflict is always been muddled and confusing . remember the phrase, as long as it takes that is not a strategic goal. now we're presented with as long as it takes, pertains to the amount of conflict. it doesn't pertain to the amount of assistance . do you understand what that means?

ah, cross talking, changing narratives. i'm joined by my guess, karen krakowski and mount jackson. she's retired, united states air force and can colonel, having served both an essay and the office of secretary events in washington. we have on 3 months the on of he is a writer as well as a military and political analysts. and at berlin we have the cavort. i'll mass young. he is founder of seriana analysis or a cross sac rules that affect that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i'm a, let me go to you. i me, i already mentioned it in the introduction, so tell me, i mean, i know english isn't your 1st language here, but maybe you have special powers that i don't, as long as it takes pertains to the amount of conflict that doesn't pertain to the amount of assistance is that, does that make any sense to you as a native speaker of english doesn't make any sense to me at all? go ahead, andre. yeah, it doesn't make any sense. and so i'm in your point of view, from strategic operational, all, rob,

logistical for that matter. so it's basically a political statement designed for the internal consumption consumption in later and in the united states. and it has no descript followers whatsoever as well. all our bows were devoured. be especially when you look at the lakers. there's also makes sense. you know, karen, it's got to amount jackson, it's very interesting to me we, we went from as long as it takes nothing about ukraine without ukraine, ukraine. it becomes completely dependent economically and militarily on the united states. but ukraine has to decide its own terms and conditions and sit down with negotiations. i mean, you could go at this at any kind of trajectory you want in it all is very, very confusing. now the reality in the ground is made it that way, but their, their policy adjustments don't keep up with reality. bad is the problem and the

public is picking up on it as well. karen? yes, certainly. i think again that information is around the world available about what's really happening in ukraine and also why why these things are happening. it's getting out there and they can't even keep it away from the limited interest in limited li, interested americans who aren't really that interested except that we have a terrible budget deficit. and americans are suffering economically and they see this money flowing into ukraine. so they're, they're starting to ask and that information now is widely available to people that are interested. they're having a very difficult time controlling the narrative. here. it said controlling the narrative kevorkian. let me go to you in berlin. i mean i, we had the revelation from seymour hersh about the destruction of the north stream pipelines. what has been the reaction of the german political elite in the media? because apparently i didn't know this. sy, hersh is this crazy old man. that's all he is. i thought he was one of the greatest

living journalists of our time. what's the german response? the german official respond is that seymour hersh is a blogger, is not a journalist, is not an investigative journalist. it isn't blogger sitting behind his laptop and just try think some illusion. well, i'm with joseph morale and just the blogger, as well. i mean, we're all bloggers in david into eyes and so anything outside of the ocean are at the hit in germany is a bashed is smeared and has been downgraded and the media has a very strong influence over to public opinion in germany. and they're able to project is hija mani intellectual. that jim went over to people, right? the only, in my opinion, 2 political parties in germany that spoke about the seymour hersh article is the left wing party, the linker, and the if the other, i think parties arrest the for other political parties. and especially the triple tickled parties who formed the coalition. david, the coast,

the article of seymour hersh because there is a war of narratives, right? this is also information working. so at the beginning, few chris, few weeks, 2 months, 3 months, probably one year. they can manipulate the people, but after one year it serve it difficult for the really information not to be so faced and for the people to be educated about it. and now you can see even gibbons, they're speaking very quietly with each other because they are afraid to speak publicly and loud in their surroundings about these cases. and the whether or not german issues continuing its policy towards ukraine and to be embedded with the united states. in disregard. so at the beginning, in my opinion, the vast majority organ supportive off your cram, but the support is now diminishing because the people can carry also the burden economically on the shoulder, right. exactly, away against the their own self interest here. you know, andre, the biggest problem and all of this and you, and i've talked about this before, is the framing of this is good versus evil. then when you have that kind of framing,

it can make you feel good, particularly if it doesn't impact you. ok. just virtue signaling but is covered just told us here. now the impact is beginning to felt. you know, the virtual signaling kind of fades away here. and when you do it, when you frame it is good versus evil, context doesn't matter. and geopolitical realities don't matter. and that's why this narrative is fumbling. it's been, it's been fumbling from the very, from the get go, go ahead. andre, are in the last a week or 2. we have a dramatic change in the wood, in narrative, across the mainstream media in united states, for example. and you can also note, is there a peak this op form transfer as for example. and if there was a dramatic change, and i would have wall street journal new york, i'm sure meeting that. yeah, russian despite the fact losing $1000000.00 groups, are they still out on offensive? begin the ground, taking their bowels sam villages. and it was like,

the switch was leaped and it has a very rational explanation to it. yeah. and you can all lie only for so long before they're out and begins to sac in, especially in the was on the world when there is still, there are still many alternative sources of information and people who have their own a very good demand. very interesting job. politics and i'm going to be begin to let you know all these little blogger school count, walk life cycle, and then they begin to last portions. let alone about professional school can point out immediately. his scared their mood of desperation. really at the ball in their bout way and the i spoke about are going to the barrels again, their article, you have to take a look at their latest

e. sure. all the so called our intellectual magazine such as the foreign affairs, which is there are old there. neil, we've got on here and you'll get a bull article bar article there and you assume you're out there how desperate they are. and what i'm showing today that the point is here, you're out, you're absolutely right. yeah. let me go to karen right now. i mean from the get go, this has been an elite project. ok. that's what it's all about. and i'm glad that i brought up foreign affairs. this has nothing to do with ukraine. it's about american hegemony. it's about taking russia out 1st to focus their attention on china. that's always what it's always been. and oh, by the way, make sure germany and russia don't have any kind of economic relationship because that's what major germany prospers. it would make germany think twice about how it feels about ukraine and the united states. you. this is only an elite project that has been from that way since the start. karen, go ahead. that's absolutely true. and if you can see it that way,

we can understand more about about how things have unfolded. but, you know, it occurs to me that you know the lensky, a former comedian, and he's been very public with all of his, you know, he is ukraine for 2 americans who know nothing about ukraine. zelinski is all that we know. and increasingly, he is becoming more of a comedian and i think americans are not really warming to him as much as he might think. and certainly not as much as congress is. i know the democratic congress in particular, you know, he received a, you know, he addressed the congress, you know, lot not too long ago. and they were standing ovation am, is mccraney and flag, have you ever seen a foreign flag on the? well, the congress wants to go to know this. yeah, i mean it's, it's crazy, but i think the americans who see this and of course, you know, we're, we're a very short attention span american slip channels. we stream our news or whatever . we don't even watch news, but when we see zalinski, he is not someone who inspires americans. i have no idea. he inspires ukrainians,

but he does not inspire americans in the things that he gets publicity for here often is that his lack of respect, his, you know, he, he dresses is if you would every one. karen, he's a panhandler, that's what he is. guinea, he's an ungrateful panhandle. i that's north sky. i'm a suggestion of that. he's a trend user. he may not be, but he certainly appears to me. i think we now are okay. okay, go okay, karen, i don't want to get in that. i don't want to go down that path. let me just say to you, in our audience, there was a lot of lot known about zelinski in ukraine and in russia before he got the headline. so i'll leave it at that. okay. okay. cuz i can let me go to you. i would like to jump in. i don't have champion, please do go ahead de style of addressing from the ukrainian side to the wish. and we're just very disrespected, for example, zelinski demands ukraine,

demands the former ambassador of ukraine in gym, and he was a worshipper bandito and he was a yeah, polishing bonded i in the in the gym and media. he demands the gym and site to san submarines. now, for your command, he demands gemini to sent f 16 to ukraine. they're not even addressing their of so called allies in a respectful way. therefore, i think even among the popular base here in germany of the people are questioning whether they should really deliver this type of a weapon, sir, to ukraine and especially that the information is so facing now through the social media platforms that show clearly the neo nazis seen in ukraine, right? so imagine there are photographers for the if b for the reuters and the rest. they are really suffering to publish a photo where debbie's, no swastika or debbie's than you or nazi logos in to put those. they are doing really they have a lot of work into hands to hide this photos. and despite that,

today, the 8th be posted to view as part of the video in which we can see one of the screenshots, one of the officers, he's wearing an isis flag on his a shoulder. it's crazy. i got a guy, i pull my, what little hair i have out when i try to explain this to people. they just say it's propaganda. it's not true. that's what we're facing here. folks. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on changing narrative stake with our team. ah. in 1884,

the german empire began its colonial invasion into namibia. from the very start, berlin encouraged the white colonists to settle in south west africa and take away the best land from the local drives. the germans were actively draining natural resources and using the local population as a cheap labor source. this was causing major protests and led to a rebellion in 19 o 4, the hero and nama tribes rebelled against german colonial rule. kaiser wilhelm, the 2nd was fully determined and ordered to suppress the rebellion with the utmost severity against the inhabitants of namibia. germany through is 15000 well equipped army. all around the country concentration camps were built. in humane medical experiments over citizens were conducted within the period of 4 years. the germans killed up to 60000 people, among which there were 80 percent of the hero tribe,

and 50 percent of the nama tribe. the events in south west africa are called the 1st genocide of the 20th century, and not without reason are compared to the holocaust just 2 decades later after the massacre in nam may be a hitler's assault unit put on the same brown colonial uniform which push the world into the chasm of the 2nd world war who is the aggressor today i'm authorized to disco, strong sanctions. today russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. no such us unless of course, when you're just becoming a new city, which to remind them or we'll ship, we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas, new g i suffering that i know they pay with

lower with regard to joe by imposing these sanctions on russia, you has destroyed the american economy, so there's your boomerang. ah, ah, welcome back to cross stack. we're all things are considered. i'm peter roosevelt, remind you we're discussing changing narratives. ah, okay, let's go back to andre in washington state. i'm sorry i, you probably know as well as you probably feel the same way i do in watching what's been going on in ukraine, not since the beginning of last year, but all the way back to 2014. and you know what i'm getting at here, what i find really frustrating is the lack of context. there's so little context.

if i say to what i'm question, you know, where you, peter, or why are you so passionate about this? and i always say, because this was inevitable, considering the, the west ignored the antecedents of how we got here, the minsk accords. this whole problem that the, the whole, the entire push to put ukraine into nato and all of this. and you say you showed them what this is, what cia director william burns had to say. i can, i can go on for hours and hours and they just their eyes just glass over because they've never given the context of this. the a, remember, unprovoked, unprovoked, unprovoked? this was the most provoked war in modern history. andre. yeah. deco x, the zation of the whole affair is the main math of the actual and shaping narrative. and when you're on the stand off, they don't think they are good at, and i will say the necessary they're good at it either about the only thing they

can do actually in any practical terms is that the are sending off. and then there are to, basically when you look at the american, the western politics. it is primarily it's a narrative. i'm wondering. it is a little for optical things which applicable to situation and rule as they you only issue or supplying your brain with arms and money. you're going to see yourself, how foolish this old people themselves, who, who are the american longest and decision makers, especially within the beltway, they have no clue what they are dealing with. they have no clue what they have the week because they don't have, i go down to south, i go, i don't know, oregon physical and intellectual how to learn how to program to handle information and then what, what comes down to them. they have the block again,

they know have one b, c, d o m. and don't think they know is know how to go next year, old guns and purposes. when you look at this, you will american generals who domain name, mainstream media b at general key and general contract there, whatever those think things on people who are view senior yours there. they are elected on their own was that was one or more for you. well, andre, answering the generals, you just mentioned what, what can what success can they personally point to? they can't. yeah. karen, karen? i mean, i wouldn't, i thought was really painful me for me. i mean, i've, i'm blacklisted. i can't go to ukraine for obvious reasons, but i before i before 2014 and a little bit after i went there many times. okay. and what really pisses painful for me is that i've mentioned this before on this program. is it the more the west

helps ukraine, the smaller gets geographically and it's population not to speak of g d p. and these other things here. i mean, it's a failed state and who wants a failed state? you have all this arms flowing in there? no one really knows what to go except for the people that are commandeering it. they know where it's going here. i mean, you've, you worked in the military, i'm not asking you to speak for the military, but i mean that the level of cynicism here it's, it's grotesque. karen, and i think actually within even the military today, not the spokespeople and not the retired generals like betray us, but in the military to day, i think they're extremely aware of the stupidity and insanity of, of the u. s. policy here. and the reason i say that is, we know this is about russians is about us versus russia to contain control, destroy russia, in some way. we can russia, we have the, we have the rand documents to show that that's the objective. but the military

understands. well, the u. s. military today knows, well that they can take on russia. we, a nato understands the nato officers understand they cannot take on russia. so this, this is kind of a fantasy that they're all kind of, you know, the emperor has no clothes and everyone is notting o body, so beautifully, so powerful, you know, but i think they understand the reality. but the problem for me is the concern that i haven't, i think people should have is that because this is an emotional, ideological kind of conflict on the american side and among nato and great britain and, and even ukraine. that winning a war may not be. well, winning or worse, winning the war on their site. that's not possible, but damaging russia causing the amount of chaos that we don't even want to talk about. obviously, chemical nuclear, major destruction of human beings of human life. that is still possible for

us, nato and ukraine. less so ukraine, probably the u. s. in nato, to, to conduct an operation like that to cause gross damage and then say, well, we're done, we're done. we, we've heard, and this is, this is a desperate move. like you said, the desperation that we see in the western media, mouthpieces for foreign affairs, for example, supposed to be the intellectual gaia, the very desperate and desperation in a dying empire. and we, the united states, are that dying empire. that's not a good thing. it's dangerous and so, you know, kind of to keep our fingers crossed a little bit. yeah. makes it that the promotion on the, the part of the problem is here is it in, i've talked about this here for almost a solid year. every single program is on this topic. there's no learning curve here, and that's what we're all terrified of. ok, b, and because it's being become so emotional, clark, and, and, and berlin. i want to ask you a very simple question and i'm not saying you represent the german people,

but what is germany getting out of this? ok, i mean, you're industrial, as your industrial base is being severely damaged. okay. the, the wonderful success of postwar germany was it's prosperity. ok. that is being challenged right now. and it's, and all the talk about ukrainian sovereignty. what is the u. s. done to german sovereignty? go head in berlin. peter, the biggest loser of this war will be ukraine. and the 2nd biggest loser of this, or will be germany and germany will be she severely but in the economy or in an economic sector. and i think when i make means, we all know that the nato's goal in germany sued the industrialized country. we all know that the goal is to cut the economic integration between the russian at the german side because a good relations between germany and russia means that is stronger asia and this people up the region. they will never needs nato again. so the goal is to weaken

germany, to make it dependent on the united states. security was an economic wise, and unfortunately they are politicians here in germany and they, they follow the american it's, i the update the gym as didn't want to send video of heard things. but you know, how much pressure there was on the gym and a government on olaf shows him, said, i'm not saying i'm not giving him a like a justification. but there was a huge pressure from the media from the political scene, and from the elliots here in germany, arnold of shows to sent this year for thanks. and i suspect that in a few years, gemini will be weakened into extent, that they will depend only on their agricultural sector, and they will import the guys on the nightstands 3 times higher g d o. fisher price when they, when they used to buy from russia and therefore the industry was the mice. yep. it came to the lowest. we don't on away from providing or you know, history as well as i do, i, it, some of our viewers may know that, you know, at, towards the end of the 2nd world war, the, that was the morgenthau plan to d. and just to clack his gentlemen,

who would have thought they were going to implemented in 2023. i to amazing. okay. andre, how does nato equate himself itself in this conflict right now? i think it's, it's very existence is in play right now because a was never designed to 5. i fight appear conventional conflict. they, they didn't have a plan b, as you pointed out here, what's its worth? i mean, it, it was, i don't what i was growing up. it was a supper club. okay. do you have the, john, you're never gonna have to fight. you could have the american umbrella. and this is the, the biggest gross miscalculation ears. because russia said, you know, we will find of nato expansion intolerable, and we will react, and they did. andre, future of nato. are there without the boat back, 2000 when you want the sand bar and saw what the russian ultimate on, which was the live with our love are all and we're all remember one of the key

points of this all to make own while it was basically least of that man's door or all back need, but still there bought us on 990. so i was told my friend on all of the central office of russian different speed. the state was the one who stated that we know the most aware evolved european particles made. so nagle, honestly it's lovely to pull the paper tiger, but logically it is tool is will not be able to come back a large combined arms operation design will defeat the peer. irrational with ease appear, in fact, sometimes in some field sense a bonded p r a level as carol nailed it, graduate. there is a desperation dash and they are the stand of the very existence of nago, which for the last 30 years, as they wanted to say was in the start over mission. and they couldn't find good

enough enemy, they have the animal. now what's the problem with the fact that they are saying is, or is all to address? so just before existence date, you know why this enemy and there's a desire to have back, you can capture it and do something bad about l. s or to hear mistakes already there were existence of made that isn't staying here. and we can see already how both european union is beginning to show c. s. cracks and labor will follow. so if you then let me get the last the last 50 seconds to karen. karen, i have a prediction here. russia will parrell on the battlefield. it will dictate its terms. but you know what western leads and their pliant media will say? well, they didn't make it to the english channel. we won. ok, that's what they're going to do. that's what they're going to do. leg 40 seconds. go ahead. well, i think, i think that given we have an election,

a presidential election cycle and starting in 2024, we have elections in 2024 biden says he wants to run again. that means the bite and team blinking and all these neocons, they need a victory, so they will create one and they will call it one. and i think your proposal there is fine. they didn't make it to the english channel. so we want this whole thing is about narrative management. i think that they are frustrated in dc right now because they are trying to figure out how to make it work, how to say what they think needs to be said. the problem is we sacrificed all the people, the people, the human beings in ukraine. yeah. the german economy, the reputation of nato never will be. i was able to say the reputation of the west in the eyes of the global majority of the global south. that's actually one of the biggest. absolutely, that's all the time we have a fascinating discussion. i want to take my guess in berlin, mount jackson, and in washington state. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next on remember, crossed articles ah

ah, ah, a russian station. oh, never. i've studied us on the most landscape with within the 50000 distal occlusal ninety's to find stevie when else about this even with we will van in the european union, the kremlin. yup, machine. the state aunt rush up to date and school ortiz food, that even our video agency, roughly all planned on youtube with, with

101 character, the thought is reserved from you couldn't in captivity in the legislative change of prisoners, my welfare and all the things with russia, the india in an exclusive interview in which he says those countries have significantly strengthened in spite works and sanction the sanctions war against russia has in fact had been fe to not perceive and accelerate in russia. india trade. on the 17th of february, the day.