ah, situational forces can overwhelm, can dominate even the best of us, ordinary people, put in a bad evil environment, can become transformed, to become part of that negative environment. and it's any of us, or in fact most of us the office of naval intelligence, it was pretty consistent, caught out front for cia, they funded much of this research. and i don't know if there was a yield that they, they produce a yield for this cruel science. i don't, i, let's, it's maybe i'm wrong. i just don't think they do it might play out spectacularly in the military. so the connections would be much

further down the road. it would be particularly in the iraq war and in the setting up of get low and all of that. and by the time you get to 2001, it's already this cultural artifact. and so it is going to be picked up by by anyone for any purpose. mm. mm. for a people held before tunnel are not there because they stole the color. they are not common criminals in their enemy, combatants and terrorists who are b did chained for acts of war against our country. and that is why different rules

have to apply to the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle end of the student volunteer and mcgill university, and then if you look forward to 2002, when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x, right? at montana mom there and goggles gloves and here most that look by god, just like that. $957.00 sketch confer with after $911.00. all of us working at p h r. i realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild, meaning torture, cruel. in human integrating te treatment,

the use of extreme isolation was one of a range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth. literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many, many days. and that is just unbelievably destructive. i was the 1st civilian or to go down there in the commission process in a 4 to 6 months period. you see a market deterioration in many respects. well, if you're a year or 2 solitary confinement, you're going to ask the defendant for the 1st time in 2 years to, to, to interact with other humid beaks. beyond his lawyer and his jailers. it's going to be the jury that's going to decide his life. he's going to be put on the stand.

and that's where he's going to speak for the 1st time to the world for 2 years. if to be shut off from the world, it's impossible. mm. 9 years an active duty and then i'm still in the reserves in 2011. the department of defense assigned me to assist the team representing acknowledging mohammad, the, the li defendant in the 911 case. what i can say is that the u. s. government has acknowledged that for the periods between 20032006, mister mohammed was held at, has certain undisclosed foreign locations, black site,

otherwise known as flexible. it was what a boarded over $183.00 times. correct. i can say that there is a no most between the department of justice. i various organs of the us government from cuba, department to fans, the central intelligence agency, as to what types of enhance interrogation techniques would be authorized for certain types of detainees. with when they began concerning panama, they moved to having psychologists do interviews with patients, discover individual flaws, individual sources of trauma in security. and then they, they also discovered because they were demanding with arabs and muslims. a muslim males are uniquely upset by nudity and also by female physical contact.

and then fear of don't race has always played a role in american torture. it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments, punishments that were used on slaves and, and, and you might find that strange, but there was one area where slaves were never whipped, but you use clean techniques on them. they didn't leave marks. and that was, if you're going to sell a slave, because a slave that had with marks means that they were not going to obey. and so a clean slave was passa got a higher price. a cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of,

for decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form. as a no logical machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day. so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the very beginning ah . in these kinds of cases many. ready people in the system for the people who are imposing these conditions, believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people. and a lot of it is about the other, this of them, religiously, ethnically,

nationally. culturally, it's easier that it would be to someone from your own community to to that. so in guantanamo being, secretary of defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller, whose job was to extract information. and jeffrey miller made up a cd or staff did. and i included a rack and are under the oh, with the permission of the commander their general sanchez event can rent training sessions for the interrogators and the stafford upgrade person, or he transmitted the guantanamo techniques to the abil gradstaff. basically, the restraints were removed and they were told to get results. the

thing that became so clear is that what united states was doing was not a secret. it was hidden in plain sight. that wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released, which were just, you know, the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening. that people in this country began actually talking about it what we did, you know, was exactly the right thing to do. and if i had to recommend all over, yeah, i would recommend exactly the right 3 course of actions that we did exactly with reading

for seen them all. not all of them i can differently whether one is 1600 of them. we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 30 is 1600 and they, they are the worst ones are. are the ones we haven't seen? ah, who

so yes they were violating. i know it's our regulations in what they were doing, but they were operating within a system in which they were condition. they were structured in order to violate those laws. when you arrived at the wave where you aware of what had happened, there are almost immediately after we arrived, i would grab we, we were briefed that there was misconduct, but we weren't given details. and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't they didn't talk about it. so we, we didn't know i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely. you know, you, you, you couldn't, you, you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was their

well being rather than putting them in distress. but then we were confused, and then of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon. authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started adopting those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were stress, position, sleep deprivation of inducing hypothermia. just a, any way we can put them in distress using dogs. this is, this is a slope, so called slippery slope so that they take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say aloud. and even those were already torture to doing extreme things, rape and sodomy. and, you know, at the most extreme forms of physical and psychological brutality,

with for a new business. and you clean a, b, b, a does not a shoes on you. americans, grey, you euro, who did go through it is just such an upgraded ceiling for when you was just touching. sure. ruckel in was nice. you hospital the difference in full, which was in good use her own the with them the prone in just a little that was charged with her job to

yours. where are both a lot of the studies comes on distribution or just to watch. so it was coming to on on i thought it was huge in the longer it was just in the submission i proposed to sustainable mom because of the snow. you're bored, you school. of course, i don't know which for you i know for the don't know as much of a disability with the subpoena for losses come up with. what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult. time time to sit down and talk.

you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it. and the reality of course, is that torture like any physical skill right? requires training requires practice. it requires an institutional setting, a built environment, really, you need to have this institution, my space, physical space in which you can perform torture. we want, you know, we, we want to be successful. i was against the war, i'm a liberal, i didn't vote for george bush, but i wanted to do my job well, you know, i felt like, you know, if i can be successful and get intelligence, finish people and get on the or quickly and that would be better for, for iraq, better for, for us to people who are in recent days has been a focus,

a few who have betrayed our values. and so me the reputation of our country and with 6 or 7 investigations underway and a military justice system that has values, we know that those laws, whoever they are, will be brought to justice. i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable. i i was disappointed in myself and our behavior were there was terrible. so i was, i was, was very angry when the, i have a great trial happened. i, i, i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick, and he asked me to act as part of the defense team. i said, well,

the person that you should really talk to is embargo. he ran this, experimenting the 19 seventies and the situations at abu ghraib as far as i can tell, are those conditions that are also reproduced in the embargo experiments. chip, frederick, he's the man here. oh, he was the one who had the idea putting electrodes on the hood. his lawyer said, the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib, not only not a single senior office that went to trial, not a single senior office, they got a recall letter of reprimand. in fact, in some cases, they even got promoted at the offices. so it's, it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. mm. for

those individuals who were directed by the us government to, to engage in any technique that i believe would price level torture, crore and human or degrading treatment. i think they lose a little bit of themselves every time they have to come in and human act. and my power is out to them as well. i, frankly, in i don't think i noticed that until i got back. and then, you know, i tremendous guilt and i think a lot of us develop signs that were later diagnosed as p p. s. d, but i don't know. i think that they have another name for now, and i think it was, it's called like moral moral failure. so to assistance is feeling that people come

back with after being in war if they feel like they think they've done things better outside of their moral compass. ah, we're still evaluating how we're gonna approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. and i don't believe that anybody has above along. on the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as lowe's, as possible looking backwards. ah, look backward, well, forward is going to be like backward. if you don't do something about what happened in the past, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. and for this, among other people, i fault. president obama, essentially he gave everybody,

dick cheney donald rumsfeld. he gave them all a free pass george w bush. they're all going to be rehabilitated. they're all going to be treated as great statesman. one day. i mean, they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w bush. the question, of course, the world that dancing around, you know, we're avoiding as does it work as torture work doesn't work. people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus, a terrorist organization at revolution or organization accomplished organization. whatever organized form of collective alan chip i b, they won't break now and the people that you pick up that are innocence. yes. you will tell them to pieces, you'll destroy them, you will ruin them. i think that

a few of the people that passed passed through my hands as an interrogator, didn't have intelligence. but most the vast majority of the people that i dealt with work just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up. and these raves, i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or, or confessions. it's often just been used are out of, out of anger and fear. ah right after september 11th attack, september 11th, 2001. a very well known harvard law professor islander schwartz came up with the

ticking bomb theory and he said, so what happens, for example, if a tourist, as a ticking time bomb a small nuclear bomb in time square and the bomb sticking. and we only have so much time, we must torture. and then you know, the show $24.00 of course started every segment. well, that giant clock ticking away. and it kind of gave visual reality visual imprint that resonated with this discussion of ticking time bomb. in addition to the way that it framed our reception of torture on a popular level, just among the civilians in guantanamo itself, they were getting pressure from the department of defense and they have these meetings. and in the meetings, they screamed the 2nd season of $24.00 and used that as

a jumping off place to decide what tortures what methods they were going to propose to donald rumsfeld that they would use against the people they were holding in. guantanamo, i think, was very influential on the people that i worked with. i i know that some of the techniques that people wanted to use they had, should they had seen on television programs. for instance, i mentioned to you our leaders wanted us to mock and mock executions and also using electricity. and these were things that they had seen on color in this. i mean, no, no one trained us on that. that wasn't, that was simply from colored here in the united states. we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person, the lonely share of the man, who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he's absolutely forced to because

so many lives depend on it. is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him. and in order to save all these people, there was always this anxiety in american politics. which is that democracy kind of makes, makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do. there's a very gendered masculine as sort of notion behind this real men, torture and, and, and democracy makes us sissies too. in the middle east, we have people shopping, the heads of christians. we have things that we have never seen before. i would bring back water board and i'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding, who had a is here in your terrors. b would be a free trial detection, m, c, c,

2 and south for 2 years. they're going anywhere. would you say that the manhattan, m. c. c? is while he done in plain sight, a black sight, an american song? yes, but i would say it's black so that the sense of the black sites that people are be taken out and tortured, but they're being tortured in the way that their daily lives are being managed or not managed. they're not living in a day or a life. they are a, a neglected product in a warehouse where there's no maintenance, you know, i mean, even like the most the most, sol, negating place i've ever been. one of the things that we need to consider now. and has become quite an issue is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policeman and immigration officers who

managed mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things. in integrations. today, there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques, including freezing rooms sleep deprivation, all these things are now being used on, on, on immigrants and children. so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home move. ready ready ah, if we keep torture clean, then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us isn't really so bad . we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to

feel secure. i mean a bizarre way. it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us. you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side, and in return i promise you will never die. it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course, what time on the history of the american empire, a certain 50 years from now, historians might have to say, as french historians have said about french algeria. that something was lost in the russian branch of torture, of moral authority that made america world leader sacrificed for this the shamira of effective interrogation. and, ah, [000:00:00;00]

ah, [000:00:00;00] ah oh, i can understand why russia would feel uncomfortable with nato coming closer, closer to his borders. but that's why i think this is an issue that could have been, should have been resolved at the negotiating table. but let's be honest, you frame was not given the kinds of weaponry. and it's still not being given the kinds of weaponry that pose a threat to moscow or russian territory. that is simply

a false claim. mm. with business and you will clean a, b, e l does not as chosen. young lady comes grey you when you are with it is just touching up critical, now ceiling in for you was just touching sure. emma's name's your doctor of the different student in full, which helped with use her own the with them the problem. you're still with yours with him at the study skills on kristof menu for choice who's coming to the one off on the 3rd which you which no longer interested in useful. not critical postage is tangible for a moment because at least know where your personal view school go with. i don't

know who you're you're i know for the don't or is that just to do with these just opinion finances come up with me and you we report from just outside the besieged to as of stall feel factory, the last pocket of ukrainian nationalist resistance invariable as the forces their allegedly use billions as human shields. also this our we need the world's debt is multiple us with multilateral institutions. while the u. n's sheaf and other powers call for more multiple larry in the world. you are trying to convince countries to oppose that initiative. no more russian gas for political