ah, ah ah, well can join the party that efforts to isolate a salad to west comparing it partly south after claiming that depression were to have its own nelson mandela government, which to be ostracized and the country's economy. boy quote, it is not a viable historical lesson to be applied again. perhaps to another international colonial thinking. to discuss that i'm now joined by and talk a while a prominent can petition and an ally of nelson mandela. this is a while, it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time as well. let's see. now, you're literally your worlds apart from russia and ukraine in johannesburg,

some 15000 kilometers away from where we are. how much attention is given to this conflict in your part of the world and how is that covered the world's global rebates? you know, uh huh. there's nothing in any way whether it is in the oscar to hold due to the tank in model for right now. whether it is body music is there with them that with that you're going over the discussion by love, wrong with or that we did these things on time on this one. and i must say you from the thoughts we have a bless our disappointment. am i the thank birth is women attempts to sense i news. we come from the limbs of nelson mandela. we come from the background and the history of class. he's a party, it was a former fish is zoom, your

u. s. and s, when the listeners must understand that these are all on the a lot of them sitting in nazi germany. and after 945, they came here to start their own promo for all of them or fresh has been with our party. so, so from the length of nelson mandela, we know, once since i shoot me, we know what the war he's, we'd know what aggression use, and therefore the news is way on to the web. you see everything they're supposed to do with the modern technologies, those on media, you know that from the very beginning there has been a disagreement. oh, who are the main protagonist? whether it is neighborly tries between a russian ukraine for the independence of ukraine, or whether it involves some other actors as well. how do you see when, oh sorry, i missed this started by expressing from my client, you know,

our sense of hurts. those very human beats and i sense of the progress to see what i can see, the brother and sister at wal ross on this travel classic us who have because of my ukrainians and by us it was biggest financed mcdaniels do so. i mean it's all goes to form, this is the high brake seat grub. i insist i gave father sister. that's the 1st thing i want to say. we also b because remember we did not have accounts, but i didn't belong to us. it belongs to the question, then last is waiting to hear the last night and many, many parts of the world give us the home. masha dogma, our home, my home as a particular time was the disco. so use of the soviet, you know, my own wants most school. and i said this in my whole watson little room is also

different. it was what we say in find that for our audience, because in your younger years, you trained as a military engineer in this offer that to lots of places around the soviet union. can i ask you see this opportunity and ask you whether you saw any difference between the russians and the ukrainians at that time, political, ethnic, cultural, and do you think this war, this current conflict could have been avoided with the soviet union was whatever differences the b 5 among the people in your thought of info on what i was received by one group of people we never had to go on. and i lived in central. probably not . this is of us before i lived in in living. do i do the time for the, the order with me, but most of the time when you do multiple, what i'm going to do, maybe better the way. now this will not be

a will of these things. but when you buy one people, it's nothing for it thus lighted. when the country is broken off in 1990 when there's nothing we can do. but when this terrible constant is taking place, it affects us as well. and we'll hope, and we have what suggestions about how this thing must come to an end, because all was at the end of the mouse come to an end. well, before we talk about how it may and do you think it could have been to that? absolutely, absolutely, and i will say what are stated in public, i'll state what is the said over even by me in the other end of 1945 did not change the story to all k. we had 2 organizations when the cold war we got, we had in the north atlantic central governors. and that also does the standards from impala these limited, sadly organization. is there not stages of bob regal guns this programs?

if they asked for less than 45 until monday tonight i'm with where did the cold war? and so when that was all forward it over little was kept the life mental is a war or gun is the issue. so the big so the progress of mental health care for life. no body can just do this and we're fighting for this point where the people see if we're going to see that nobody can see that. but yet we hear over and over again from western politicians, from nato officials that need harbors no malicious intent. these are the russia i did what i see is the flu. find somebody who wants the strike use a party when nato kansas were helping him. what does natal doing now think about what the government given them with wants has been that given the with that web once. yeah. because would not try to change. use the, i know today's quote,

you know, to grab, to drop the, you go fight like it is under who's risky. but if i got to fight against the attack was, if it does become questionable by the food we may need to start, that will be what russia when you do this? no, i think you'd be that when i said that was set up this one to step with about one off ramps that islamic terrorists will come from iraq. celia and other have now come a doctor got exhibit come to so my the of the of come to laws. i'm be next to us and they started the war here. this current last year, me our so just because the data is now next door, birth time off of that, that is fully at all right? like using those. so not just not

a number of countries you want to call the software development for which we went there because the data is everything that's the big because the so affected. look what you must lead to the words about what was done is to we can see therefore, 2 things will have the reaction. that reaction or more school to some people was your issue now. or some people in most what was the national security interests of russia didn't come. nobody must come with the story, but there's no with we're coming to do both boys today. it's not who this is the most organization, but most i'm with and now the shifting growth will short range ballistic missiles. you understand that you're good, listen to that and it comes with it. you don't need to persuade me

that you know, the russian security interest and both. i will i agree with you totally here, but still this is, i think this is going to be one of the most painful conflicts for russian recent history. precisely because of what you said we have most of us have family members in ukraine. they have childhood memories in your brain. so even if they, you know, national security interests were involved, it was an extremely difficult decision. i will have to leave with the consequences of it for years and perhaps take it to come. now i want to turn to your own story because you have a very interesting story of fighting for what you believe to be your country's destiny, being an anti apartheid student. later joining the aren't organization of the african national congress. them being in being in prison on the robin islands, but nelson mandela, et cetera. in those times, did you ever doubt what was right and what was wrong? how did you arrive at your own conscience and your own piece of, you know,

making those decisions because, you know, fighting against what you see as injustice. you can do that. you know, in white glove. sometimes you take measures that you hate and still you have to take them. not just the 1st on the philosophy. our struggle. oh, political struggle for liberation like yourself are people. so the form of mother and freshman was underpinned by the chris for justice. wait one. i days the leases the and we plan the whole world, moto clash, american people stuff wanted us. mr. biden was one of the best of point us off associate is off of the just we were supported from it who again, bridget saw so. so we're given by the chris weighed quality or non gratian anderson . and for justice, when the police in the fall on comes all these both will don't route. we're not

faced with the problem with we wait, we approach to reach you with that kind of an i p live become that what the punitive lovely, so you are quite yes or no questions. here wasn't your guns, and one friend of mine is them is optim. what we can never accept as people we did for social justice or human rights. is that hey split not he's been split in the world to be and we're not part of the he does. that's the it's a sport man. you must be announced to come to play tennis. no, preston would expect it. you could get an answer. for the sake of playing tennis or football, it will never happen. so they have to put my so in any case in our plan of when i'm buying, it would've been russian people as were you planning people,

we try both with the security in. so prison for team, we also try with the national so that any see or present for you. you know, if i can, yes. we probably will see you being so busy does all sorts of things you the up to believe in this country. but one thing we must also be trying to use your crate and those i present their lives. you must be aware of that we are leaving for a voice. i mean, you are one and that is the day when i was going to go to point to be the president that respect what must come and then realize that these people want to fight until the last you go and, you know, there was to put them way creek is the last when they use the new great as 10 am for the buck must come to an end. who was a brand new light by model is a disaster. therefore this they must come to an end to say the 3

b discussion dialogue good and debates for now mrs. wiley, we have to put an end to both discussion dialogue and debate because we have to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ah, need to come to the russian state to never. i've stayed, as i told them, you know, so i'm skiing with within 55 with speedy one else

with we will van in the european union the kremlin jeff machine, the state on russia today, and c r t spoke neck given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and with a with mm i welcome back to wells appointments. okay. say, well,

we have prominent south african petition businessman and an ally of nelson mandela . mr. sick, while before the break, you mentioned that in your anti apartheid struggle, you were supported by people from around the world in the americans. but i know for a fact that nelson mandela white some time, i mean this person who is now considered to be one of the carriers greatest carriers of human conscience. he was considered a terrorist that he couldn't receive an american visa law who whites on time, when in your own perception, when did that switch occur when he stopped was some being seen as a, as a, as a terrorist and suddenly became, became one of the same i got news for you until this dam classified as a terrorist on that it was to god this case was nelson mandela went to the white house

and met president george bush and other people connected is the license or one of the things i was lazy and like i said, raise this question. was this thing of being continued to be trustee fred taylor? you know, that is possible, but it's in my passport. i'm still restricted. i go to america. does that a switch? because we, we, we, we, we, we're having the cuttings and the, or not austin the, for the freedom of our people. now, in america and other parts of the world go to wells world apart like we'll see where some of the people are supporting us and some of the people who are against us. but, you know, gave linda becoming president james. i became a premier here. that's the mother became a president and children that climb up with level $33.00 in america. but when i went and talked the business, you started showing my possible again that this was so i kept on being stop at the airport and i guess i will give them because it's not the current. i've been station the time that best to change just law. it was not that easy. so with us,

if i did it, but because we had one, you know, because we had prevails. it was not good music america to punch in. you're good enough, but i'm saying that i'm good people in the united states than anywhere else in the world are good people in russia. what we have to do through debates to dilute through diplomatic discussions. we stand to make sure that this war comes to an end of some is i think the ask it is a big in the world economy yesterday on the international monetary fund, whether right is, was, has downgrade the growth of the world. you know, because of what is everything, not the oyster but the sanctions because the both ways the less than but because of it and it's rock for any group of countries to dig it up for themselves to would have done unless it's, if you played with us your grandfather is do this, we play sports and, but russia when trouble. so everybody is despite so when you talk about russian,

you're in trouble. so well being terrorized also for those to certain people and that will not accept because they're also free people in this world. but we believe that it was like a week. there is a need for people to sit down and dissolve. unfortunately, the talk to, to have any bells have looked like see they're putting the rest of it, but i want you as somebody i know that will present with again, i know you said the did it again. miss men, the least you almost baby to see you. but and often we start the discussion inside listen to the fold up. questionable question of the my party is not an easy thing to take the 1st step, but somehow people have got to find it a little bit because i have been calling for data for quite some time. and i know you've been following these calls like from it's very beginning and i think it was

in 2015 when you published an open letter to present to 10 and a present on field work on their hubris and come to the negotiating table. and to some extent, this call was heated because president put in and present biden math in geneva last year. and they talked about the origins of their disagreements, but the united states continued militarize in ukraine and continued using its land to present the military french. russia, isn't there a certain point when the dial needs to stop so that the other side, you know, understands that then you know, so using that dialogue to, to deliver harm to its adversary? no, no. i said that i know was going to be the soldier super good bye. allison are come to us. all right. well more than 300 years. so i understand this thing and

whether i'm of i feel we can even play a role and plug it with us, you know, the about 2 months and the business of on both sides. we have been in prison for more than 15 years. so i wanted to say that the time of value is always an opportunity to be seized. does luca lama is that open to him? of be kept alive. i'll leave with all the leaders and i'm not talking for in your organization. i don't a lot of organizations business and so, but as an international citizen and as somebody just in this be, we might not be that clever. okay, but we'll, why we've domains that we've seen this thing before because it will end up in dire list. keep the door open and i'll leave with brother in law school. am open, not dornbush at did and yourself. i understand what you said, but it's time for them to sit down, find a way even, you know,

just just to meet face to face. i know it's not easy to take the 1st step. lead off of those, give up hope for me. i live in that hope, the next window we, we negotiate. we started talking with the enemy of that. wish it was, we were still your budget. and finally, if the russian, any ukrainian people and they russia and ukraine leaders indeed decide to meet the thing. it's within the capacity of the ukrainian government of the ukrainian leadership to put on not only to put an end to that war, but to implement the commencement that they may take upon themselves among which is for example, making ukraine neutral. i from what i hear on the russian official saying they don't want the ukrainian sovereignty, they don't want to decide anything from the ukrainians. what they want is new credit. you're going to try and stop presenting a strategic threat to russian militarily. as long as that is taken care of ukrainians are free to receive whatever they see for themselves. but do you think

these decision rest within key key capacity or that it perhaps needs to be taken taken elsewhere. and how would you persuade those powers elsewhere to commit to that? i know you're busy. this was the lease poverty, but that's the essence of negotiation and deliberations and dialogue and to promote discussion. those points are easy. are the points not to be handled? as the discussions, because the 1st thing is decision of all these all since they don't no longer go for the movement of those. and then i can talk about the details or guarantees was also once those up questions for the debate. you can say do this before we go, then it's something that bug negative that wouldn't meet about this. of course, those things magnitude, but the subject of the discussion. so the only thing i'm saying lead the brother or conscious themselves discuss people don't come from outside and call more fuel into

the situation. prisons their lives. but that was supposed to stand up not as a president with a strength of your own people. and that's what it is passionate about it, but be careful about you playing would not be controlled by others on those of you out with sophie's you have to do by doing, you know it and he's, he's really good very well. and it's a little bit of work, but let's be convinced him and not other people behind this off thing. this is the problem, this, but tell us. and of course we broke all the weapons from outside, not be in the situation. we need more as to say more joe, joe, joe or not wall wall. so the people who are bringing weapons, you know, maybe time for the warehouse all the way jofunia with that is what we are. but this most. but definitely in this part of the world, we are not food with the best things for that to go to the end of the day.

because questions and comments as the end of the day, you are left on your own. because when people are quoted bethel can i ask him very quickly about something that you mentioned before. the fact that this counseling is having and the rest of the world. and there are many express how warning about the growing danger of not hunger in developing countries. because of the rising fuel and for the prices prompted by the, by the sections western sanctions against russia. isn't that also to some extent, a sign of supremacy when a 2nd part of the world can decide that everybody else can suffer because of his decision to penalize, let's say russia or somebody else, isn't that the very essence, if you will, of apartheid or fashion? and how as the international community, we can deal with that so that you in south africa don't have to pay, let's say,

for our russian mistake. because at this point of time, the most vulnerable countries are not even forced to carry the burden of the of the western sanctions. because the west doesn't like something about russia. the group is a group of it is a limited works. remember when in the, in the solar system, where does the book take those communication from a police report? there's never such a high stakes up what happens on the thought part of the world. so this focus is immediate in record time, not the point of a form of what. when you impose sanctions ready, clearly warfare gives other people is affecting us. now what is the bed of beats? we feed into the pencil bombs, which we did with almost every way. we're not part of this. that's why we have got the right. i would say, what is this blackman's turkey, who he's a right to the end of the wedding sub i have well,

the right to the 2nd of the world to point a finger at the wrong thing about his deputy. we can kill the bidding of the sanctions. good day, the go, the sanctions, the unilateral. they're not united nation functions. we insult a live intent for 30 years. we asked from 1960 to 9090. we had asked for congress to impose sanctions on south africa. they play jokes with us. the dogs with us, the sanctions don't watch that. i had mouth where there was the one day. we understand the games are going to be all real things that like it. we're asking for people to recognize the for week and i went to say this for the last time. the danger of what is happening in the part of the world. you can have this wall breaking out into something else because of mistakes. incompetence. i like less mess or a miscalculation you see, let not the leaders of the world in this part of the world nation,

everybody including prison per diem, i in danger because other people may take advantage of the situation and saw him you. but on top of the clearly lead us the white house lead us the claim, lin, lead us prison zalinski. people have got to sit down. and by the way is the model. if you don't, there was she was friends of the checks. nipple sheet was un that in with you see, done in may well, get how the world war woodward who ended, you know, what did with hitler. but today we can talk with jamie people. but when you get on, you know, you, you think you something but he's been gone for ever i car for that shorter on both sides of the fence. these are all the children that don't does the boot colds. and quite closed the door by shallow. the dawn with shades if the river by both washing anything in people you all belong. while mister farley,

i called dad. so not only our past but also our future, but we have to live in there. thank you very much for your with him. i hope i have a stamp on the fucking, but for the children live to school. there just conflicts comfort pinkish. i think here it's our viewers for watching home this year again next week. when was the part ah ah ah, the so called enhanced interrogation techniques used by the u. s. officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind.

if you force a human being to stay in a certain position doesn't take very long to the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating. but nobody lean finger on you. you are doing it to yourself. and we started adopting those techniques when i was station and mosul among them were stress positions, sleep deprivation. and using i prefer mia. there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques are now being used on immigrant children. whatever you do or more comes to home, nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past. the moral authority, the made america with the shimmer of effective interrogation a

ah barricades bias and violent clashes with police, a seat on the streets of paris under the french, this up incumbent. president micron wins the presidential race. also coming up a new nation. and this is the scene, every single village taken from ukrainian troops with 5 thing in the dumbass region continues and not the crew visits an abundance school used by ukrainian troops is a defensive position. and western media pushes baja sanctions for the countries with.