trust in the western reaction to the refugee crisis, triggered by russia's actions in ukraine with the way europe has sought to hold back millions of syrian and other refugees since 20 debates on discussion to the for next, the peter and gas gets stuck into another round of cross talk action sticks. ah ah, ah, ah ah ah,

ah hello and welcome to crosstalk. were all things are considered? i'm peter lavelle. the massive sanctions war against russia is having a profound impact on the global economy. instead of just punishing russian citizens, consumers in the west and the developing world will also experience economic pain. globalization itself is being interrupted. the great separation is upon us. ah, cross stocking, globalization interrupted, i'm joined by my guest. analysts are in new york. he is a journalist, an author of 3 books on the u. s. constitution, also new york. we have michael hudson. he is a professor of economics at the university of missouri, kansas city, as well as author forgive them their debts and in prague we have brad blankenship.

he is a columnist at c g t n, a freelance reporter for should y as well as an r t contributor or a gentleman cross sack rose in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want, and i will appreciate it, michael, let me go to you 1st in new york. this is the 1st time in history, the global reserve currency. the dollar is being used as a weapon against the g. 20 country, what is the significance of that? well, i think it's trying to speed the partying. guess now, since america one of gold and 1971, it's been the great beneficiary of other countries holding their reserves in dollars. that meant when the banks in europe are even russia, old dollars, they buy us treasury bills and essentially they're lending their money to the us treasury, supporting the dollar and the balance of payments. and that's what is enabled america to afford trade deficit and it's military deficit. all over the world. well now the american isolating other countries from the dollar is losing the whole free

lunch that has been getting for the last 50 years. and it's telling other countries, if we don't like what you're doing, we can do what we did to take an a stand. we can just grab all your money and or we can do what england, venezuela? gold. and we can say that all the way from the country to elected their own leader, if their leader does something that the united states doesn't the, let's give it to a leader that we approve of. so all of a sudden other countries are afraid not only to keep their international reserves and dollars their trade even to do trade denominated in dollars. and most oil trade is always been denominated dollars, because all of a sudden the united states can say we're, we're, we're going to block you from getting a payment. we don't like what you're doing and we're not going to invade you momentarily. we're just going to block, you're doing any business to get something you need. we need a strangle over you. because if we don't have that,

we feel insecure. we feel under attack, if we can't control who's running your government and if we can't control your trade. so they put a block on, on the dollar, and this is created and blocking trade patterns. if countries can do their trade in dollars or with western europe and america, they're going to trade with each other america. but then the u. s. is not a net benefit beneficiary of this type of policy. let me go to daniel here. i mean, i'm calling this, this program a great separation. and this is what's happening here. the, the, the, the financial markets being, you know, basically it's, it's the u. s. picking winners and losers, and that's not what a fee had currency is supposed to do. ok, i don't know why anybody would want to hold on to dollars here and it, it, it'd be a demonstration effect for other others around the world. where if they want, they, if they were going to choose their own kind of economic sovereignty, they're gonna have to look over their shoulder. you know, this isn't for me, this is so short sighted

a theat currency should be not politicize and it's getting worse and worse. and the chinese obviously are watching very carefully on how these sanctions are being applied to russia. having said that gentleman, ever since 2014 rush has been preparing for a day like this, go ahead, daniel. i agreement the farthest china. i would be very, very worried. i mean, i had the usaa could turn these that tools around and apply them to china's, well, if china also somehow steps out of line, sorry. and so this where i said with a yes, we're this. if i was china, i would be extremely concerned as to where this is all going and the, and the rivaling powers of the us, cecily wielding over the international financial markets and international trade. it's really, i really am very ominous. i developed, you know, brand, it seems to me the more the u. s. in its allies, what am maintain, it's

a gemini in the world, the more they lose it because the merriment when they're most valuable tools has been the dollar and the financial system that it created. now, if it's going to be used this way, more and more people will obviously want to move away from it. i mean, if you're being told that you can't trade because of another country's behavior, you're going to start thinking twice here. and i've been looking at this great separation for quite a few years now we're talking about financially, but it's happening in other ways as well. and you know, there's going to be where i think we're coming back to a bipolar world. that it's going to be a russia, china, and regions, and it's going to be the u. s. in its allies. we're going to have separate internet separate banking system. there won't be as much conductivity. we're going into a very different world, your thoughts, brad? go ahead. well i thought that recently this week, john merch time or had a very illuminating interview with the new yorker went off directly about this. i don't think that we're moving into necessarily

a bipolar world because i know it's true that russia and china are joining together . i see them as rather distinct. and i also think that russian leadership doesn't want to be hard to agree. i agree though, that from that perspective, with the united states, if it wants to maintain its head, your money, or compete with basing should be trying to take russia away from china and its actions continue to push russia closer to china. in fact, a west mitchell who is under secretary state for your asian affairs, articulated this new pentagon report. and he said, actually that united states needs to provide carrots on a stick to make it russia and try to compete against each other. and that is the exact opposite of what's happening right now. everything that they're doing is pushing, trying to rush closer together, especially unplugging, russia from swift. this is the 1st thing you know, rush has been evolving its own alternative. and so it's china. and though i think that the, the ability for them to replace that is

a bit over stated at times the fact that it's happening in the fact that, you know, the direction is going that way is, is very problematic for us dollar heads. mon, i also think, for example, i've seen today that the u. s. is mulling over sanctions against india. yes. for trading with russia, that it would destroy the us in the pacific strategy trying to leverage its relationship, india to isolate china. and the thing is, is that we're talking so much about how the world is against russia right now. but if you look at the un resolution that was asked, most of the countries didn't say anything. yeah. and mostly, if you look at, for example, pakistan, india, brazil, china, that alone is more people in the world than the western countries in america that are trying to russia and it will in fact, as you said, create this bifurcated world, you know, michael, one of the things i find very interesting is that it, washington and its allies and punishing russia for its military operation in

ukraine. is that they think that they, that there's either going to have some kind of for now they some kind of an game here. but it seems to me that the sanctions here, they're just that it's a, it's a message to rush and other countries like and say, you know, we're done with you people, okay. you say this is temporary change, your behavior will let you back into the club. i'll let you sit at the table. i think it's one way. it's a one way direction right now it's a done with you. people here, you know, nord stream to you, asked russia to build it. we built it and then you don't want it. okay, why should we deal with you people? you people are not serious, michael? well, these sanctions are not mainly against russia. they're mainly against europe. the sanction? yes, yes, exactly. america wants to hold here in the us orbit. the sanctions are designed to iron curtain to lock here in the u. s. is not to exclude russia. america just wants to control europe and it wants to control the world oil trade, because that's the key to it's a international power, of course, in europe,

and in germany, to pay huge amount of a for a gas. huge amounts to buy american liquefied natural gas. not russian gas, this is going to, in germany is a major international manufacturing. our germany's cost structure is going to go up . so hi, this going to political break away. so ultimately, the question is, will america sanctions dr. europe, out of the american orbit, just like us driving out russia out of the well, let me, let me get it daniel on that. i mean that, that's probably the biggest surprise or disappointment for me is because of all countries in europe. germany could have sit up and said, hey, hey, everybody needs to slow down right now because it's the, it's the engine to be konami growth in europe in. i can, you know, i can see how the americans want to maintain it and exclude russia. but it's kind

of a cheap consolation prize because you get it, you know, if europe isn't dynamic, then what's it worth? go ahead. oh yeah, but let's, let's be realistic here. i mean, i'm in russia by mounting this vision essentially has done web to have with brad, could have done, which is to unified data. so essentially this, this, this unification now is imposed by the war. or, you know, i mean, i oppose it a couple of weeks ago, germany was giving signs of going its own way, was resisting pressure. the close down word stream to now with that word, germany is flowing into line of the rest of the e u. and of course, great britain, australia, et cetera, et cetera, are as well some have said, i mean, so essentially, jen bryant is a bill yet over what's happened because, you know, essentially he is achieved the unification that was previously so elusive,

increasingly elusive in fact. but i'm like, do you think they understand the cost? i mean, look at the, they could the price structure of energy right now. i mean, it's really easy. do you know, to stand up and say, this is terrible, it's wrong and all that. but when you said, you know, in the next day you begin to realize what it's going to cost. you know, i, i think that there's a big, a division between what your heart is telling you and what your brain is going to tell you later. because europe is going to suffer quite so strenuously after this. i mean, 1st of all, i don't see a return on the, i think i said there's one direction. there's not going to be any mending offenses and there's going to be a lot of restructuring on, on all sides here. michael, them, you know you real quick here before we go to the break, you're nodding your head, that's what i'm going to go ahead. i'm just not gonna agree in agreement that it says if america is shooting itself in the book, as they say that it's trying to bully europe into the tendency on the united states . and at a certain point are the leaders of europe are also pro american. they are on the

american a rural bridger lake. but how long can you pull the borders of europe? and they realize why we don't. why can't we have leaders who are promoting our own economy rather than helping id badge i've been here, gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on globalization interrupted. stay with ah ah, issues with industry to restock and just look up some of natalie mussels runyan noon, she kitty doesn't being in the green shield on a nurse to me as possible. mama cook gas gosh said to suddenly tim cut the rope to his ashley of dc. wanted with wonder no

faces, but of course possession the p. completed but not, not but the key for the chima bryanston that was for phones that arrived, something like that. and then we got that boy there i see with little grain lisa l look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such short or is it conflict with the 1st law? show your identification. we should be careful about official intelligence. and the point obviously is to place trust rather than fear and with artificial intelligence will so many demon

obama protective own existence with a welcome back to cross top. were all things are considered non peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing globalization interrupted with okay, let's go back to brad in prague here. we've already mentioned a little bit in this program about china's reaction here. it seems to me that the way the, the chinese are watching the, what's going on with the sanctioning of the russian economy is it could be a potential dry run against them. what do you think lessons that they're learning from this here? and obviously you're not speaking for the chinese government, go ahead. right. so 1st of all,

i think that they are realizing very quickly that they, you know, even if they want to stake out a neutral position they are going to be brought into. because for example, recently the new york times did an article saying that the chinese knew about the russian invasion and asked who it's in personally, or it's a russian officials to postpone the invasion ukraine until after the olympic games . and before all of this took place, we saw that the americans were reaching out to china in an effort to try to calm the situation. so there's kind of this idea that that china is pulling the strings, of course beijing denies it. but i think that this is really just an attempt to tie all of russia's actions to china in an effort to degrade china's reputation in the international state, even though it is always consistently taken an online mission. and then in terms of what's happening with essentially, this is very, very important, of course. so i think that they're really paying attention to maybe not the

reaction in the west because that's to be expected, right? but the reaction in, especially the global south, very important global south countries like india, brazil, for example, countries in the middle east. and i think that they're really looking at this. and you know, if you, for example, if you go and chinese social media perhaps and outside the west, you can really get the idea that people have a nuance take of this. people aren't so polarized as they are in the west where, you know, you have to believe that hitler and this man. and then, you know, of course, russia has its own opinion that, you know, blamed the west for the whole situation. but i think people around the world are that are not in these countries. that is the majority of people in the world are looking at this. like, yeah, that could have been avoidable. our hearts are, you know, with the people of ukraine. but of course, we principally stand against nato's aggression. that is what this point. it's a very good point here, daniel. you know, if we look at,

we prices going up dramatically here. obviously rush is a very important export. a lot of people don't know that, but it's a largest exporter of wheat and grain in the world of ukraine is not too far behind . and i don't think they're going to be exporting much grain in the, in the near future. unfortunately for them. but the people to get hit the most by it are the poor countries in the world. you know, they get these, you know, these, these laser folk focus sanctions and you know, all that i personally attached to it. this is a much greater ripple effect that we've seen like countries like the raton, being sanctioned. go ahead. oh, that's our data. the correct us. i mean, inflation is getting a major push from these sanctions. are, there's no doubt and certainly the energy prices, energy prices, earth are skyrocketing. that'll certainly hit the global south very, very hard. and we'll have germany that europe and the u. s. as well. i'm in the u. s. is that kind of the business member important dad price gauge in the u. s. of

gasoline and gasoline is the shooting upwards of that is, you know, that is something that hits every american in the pocket book and makes them very angry and does not all grow well for the democrats. our chances this coming november. i say yes. and this is that i have a major impact. i mean, i think the global economy. so it's gonna take a huge hit from this from this and will be really driven downward across the board. here michael, i mean a great if you look at like the arab spring or what i call the sunni winter and you know, grain prices late a very important role in the instability of that region here. and now we're seeing it again and considering the what would cove it did and global trade. and now you throw this on here. i mean, you have some of these economies just barely recovering. and now this is a double whammy on top of them. and of course, you know, i want to keep stressing the europeans are going to feel this to, with energy prices here. so there's a cascade effect all a re, well,

go ahead. well, you're right in bringing up a good, which is already made. many of the 3rd world countries, a global south countries strap. what this means is they're already unable either foreign deaths and especially with higher food import prices and higher energy prices. there's going to be debt defaults, and that's going to have a repercussions all down the financial system. we depart from the trade system and it's going to affect us bondholders. it will affect us banks. and basically, it's going to force, i think, the 3rd world in asian, and here's an opening for china and russia to put in an alternative to the international monetary fund and the debt. so this is, this is just opening them to say, look, the system that's driving your bankrupt is bankrupting you. so american can come in and grab your raw materials, privatize your industry's. there's another way of organizing the world. and that's

what the ukraine or is really about another way of organizing the world economy and the world. you know, brad, there's a number of programs on the world beyond the west and, you know, and i'm talking about the great separation here. just like echo what michael was saying here, the financial institutions that are controlled by the west, primarily the united states. they don't seem to be servicing all people are necessarily only the, the specific political aims of the united states and its allies. this is another good reason to go beyond the west. go ahead, brad. well, even before this situation with ukraine, we already saw that the bad decision to raise rates was going to essentially, artificially induced a recession to have to hold inflation, which would put people out of work and create even more suffering, not only in the united states, but particularly in the developing world this would get people more than that and even president chinese president, she she thing was we're, we're morning about this that the world economic forum. so for sure. i mean,

i think that people understand, i think, since the 2008 financial crisis, people have understood that, you know, the people that are managing the american economy or not. let's say the most savvy individuals. and they're certainly not looking after everybody's best interests. and i think that this is probably another example that you said, yeah, you know, this war is a tragedy. it truly is it, it is terrible. but you know, it's going to cause a lot of suffering for other people. i don't mean to, to take away from what people are going through. but this is going to affect the entire world. this is going to affect, certainly hundreds of millions of people in russia as it already is. but also around the world. i think that's something that these countries particularly near a don't understand. they just principally do not understand that their actions will have very dire consequences for the world. it will stabilize the world. and i'm very afraid that there are many liberal internationalists that actually want that particularly with russia. they believe that causing harm to the russian people is

going to create a situation where there could be regime regime change in russia, and that is a just mind blowing. lee, really thing to pursue at this time. you know, i think that yeah, i mean you're, you're absolutely, i mean a brad, i mean that's a fever dream. i know that's, that's a dream that so many people have in washington and around washington. that's how they make their living. ok, i mean, you know, what's the next plan to destabilize the next country. ok. but dent mcdaniel. you know what? what do you think? is there a great separation going on and my exaggerating this is there too much to it because it seems to me that they, i can remember. i think i'm repeating myself a little bit. but you know, they apply these sanctions to see if they can get a positive reaction as they see it. and if they don't get it, they imply more sanctions. and then you get to a point, well, why have any interaction whatsoever? there's business elsewhere, you know, and russian energy, it's in demand all around the world. ok. it's not in europe is you know, that, that's not their only point of destination. i mean, the, i think what this fever, dream of, you know, crushing russia is. that's what it is. it's a fever dream,

daniel. well, i mean, 1st of all, calling it glowed sac great separation. it's almost to grind. i mean, but women a separation. they want to move in for the kill and 1997. and as best seller, the grand chessboard adds big, big new web regency club for ringing russia. with that, with a s a series of hostile states, the ukraine, 1st and foremost, and then breaking it up into 3 parts. a european, russia, iberian russia are eastern russia. well, yes, what i mean, the opportunity 25 years later is now upon if they can have regime change and russia, which they're certainly hoping for, then they can move for the actual physical breakup of russia. that is what is on the agenda here, i think is no doubt about that. yeah. and so, yeah, you know what,

i'll go if i can take from that michael and in doing so, the european union will collapse. ok, and nato will have shown itself to be a paper tiger that this is something there, chewing on it, they're not going to be able to digest my opinion. michael, go ahead. well, apart from being a paper tiger, it's obvious that nato was not offensive. no, no country is going to invade any other major country any more. nato is an offensive organization. and the question is, does he want to be part of an american offense and get involved in afghanistan in the near east and in africa that the united states are setting up to fight under the chinese there. so all of a sudden it is europe going to remember to rise? well, germany's re militarize in and even though it's running into a depression is increased, it's military spending to more than 2 percent of g. d. p. as in effect,

europe is acting as if nato is running its foreign policy and domestic policy and nato's following us a policy. so at a certain point, the nationalistic parties in europe on the right are leading or the let me, let me finish with brad in prague. you just heard michael, that did anyone in the european union vote for that agenda one minute to brad. you know, i just really hope that the liberal internationalists don't have their way. and as there's piece talks right now and people are pushing for diplomatic solutions, conflict, i just hope that people give russia a viable off ramp that could include rethinking unplugging, russia from swift rethinking the sanctions, the asset seizures, rethinking that the race is policies against russian people and, you know, bringing ukraine's political neutrality on the table. i really hope that we can have that conversation that we can put it ended up grabbing brad, you know, but brad, everything you said is very reasonable in all of those things were on the agenda

for months as this crisis brewed. okay. it was all on the agenda and no one in the west wanted to listen. and here we are. it's tragic. our i gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in new york, prague, and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. c. you next time. remember, prostitute rules ah, a wrong one. i just don't want you to see out the scene because of the applicant and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will to part we choose to look for common ground

tonight is full. your book was ac. not blowing on still on. yeah. still clean scott, i don't know who the sport is. what kind of board missed this deal with the way i would if you have a good a good, huge, but you're more difficult does was to like to set up our bus for the day of school a pro that then you shouldn't have been really well just you said you are with us. i was actually in this particular way, it pushes with pushy,

i get some push a somebody see way lead, but i do it for them by soon. oh is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being that somewhere? which direction? what is true? what is great? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the

shallow in the fire at europe largest nuclear power plant in ukraine has been fully extinguished with no casualties. and radiation levels said to be normal. ukraine claims that was hit by russian go ahead in the program, homes are caught in the crossfire in the loop gums and done yet republic following a battle between ukrainian military and local militia, forced one second round of the peace talks ended invalid was both moscow and agree to the setting up a humanitarian courage, doors for a vacuum of the possible temporary cease fire to allow a citizen to leave.