crosstalk ing some real news i'm joined by my guest robert bridge he's a r.t. website writer we also have nick like petro he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island and of course we're joined by dmitri bob h. he's a political analyst and editor and interest me internet media project originally in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it robert let me go to you 1st here i think a lot of people going to be surprised by the content of our program because when you crane is in the news flow they're thinking of joe biden paul man a fort 2016 election the d.n.c. we could go on and on oh and of course the famous phone call between the presidents of the united states and ukraine but we're going to talk about ukraine in a different way in a way that most people are not following we had an election where we have a new president it's own skin we have a new parliament overwhelmingly supported his agenda and him personally but doesn't seem to have much traction. yes that's very true and it's unfortunate that you have

this element this far right neo fascist element in ukraine that is really calling the shots and it's amazing to me that. zelinsky has 77 or maybe it's less now i think is about 66 percent support of the people that's a lot you know it's quite alive percent voted for him and i don't understand now how it's possible when you have this public support that the street can rise up like it has when when i'm starting to wonder when is it going to get to the point when the people say no we don't want another made because it's basically what the neo i guess called the nazis yes we're going to that's basically what they're calling for there apparently there are there are reports that there's a threat and possible how did we get to this point because he you have to ask basic questions put to shame call came in as a centrist left i think is a much more nationalist right winger and we have zelinsky is very much

a moderate i think his message resonated with the public so is he weak the institutions weak or both or is it just because there's a free fringe group out there that's trying to call the shots. the last. in february 2014 demonstrated the weakness of basic institutions of government in ukraine and the absence of any understanding of the concept of rule of law and that has persisted from then on there is lip service to the terms but no deep commitment or understanding of it i would take a slightly different tack with respect to the right wing neo nazi element in ukrainian politics it exists it has an outsized influence but i don't think it is really the thing that is preventing change right now i think the thing that is preventing change in ukraine. is the v.

weakness of the city and ski specifically driven by his need to feel loved he wants to be loved by everyone that's but that's not ok that's a personal agenda but that's not a political agenda here exactly my point my point so there is no political agenda my point is what i brought up because he did visibly change ok and now we have we have a lot of mixed language ok i mean he he wants peace with russia he wants some kind of resolution with the donbass he has to pay lip service to you to crimea though it's very i think everyone knows that's i mean was it pays lip service to it and you know and then you have his western backers that want him to start making decisions to resolve this conflict but he can't he's paralyzed is it him or is it we've already heard it it's the institutions that are well i think the main problem is this misunderstanding you know the west misunderstood zillions is bigotry the

true reasons was against is a victory where it was the fact that people were tired of the war was not also this this division in ukrainian society. described very well in his articles in fact ukraine is divided between the west which wants to join the european union and nato and the east which did not change much just by changing the narrative all of that western media if you you know the western media just forgets what do ruled 5 or 6 years ago look at their articles they confirmed them that the east of ukraine traditionally vaults for a different candidate than that when you look over each one's their president or a dictionary they want they don't want to be a part of russia i mean. some of the eastern regions but they definitely asked professor petro route this year they definitely don't want to be a part of a country horsetail to russia and the west just doesn't want. understand it instead

they took her to dance again someone young again someone who vote against putin is really terrified of who should be terrified because the russians would be jealous. in that wonderful man and they would pull you know what what about the oligarchs. if i had anybody i would. talk about corruption here but it's very very interesting because i know you follow media very closely isn't it really interesting that the whole ukraine narrative in western media starts in 2016 nobody wants to go back to the 1014 years old it's as if it didn't even happen exactly and well i thought i personally think that what's happening now is something that is understated nobody talks about it in the media is that all of darks are really calling the shots in ukraine i don't know how much it has to do with the institutional weakness i am sure that that's

a big part of it but they tend to wield a tremendous amount of power that is excessive 2 to what they should have compared to like the power of the people the vote i don't understand how this could possibly happen and it makes me wonder why zelinsky when he came into power he didn't say ok we're going to are going to clean house we're going to lay down the law we have a mandate from the people to clean up and we're going to stop this funding of the for example the taliban which is i don't understand why they're down there i don't know if they're actually integrated into the. open of the. interesting things you want to go right. well. robert mentioned 3 things that contribute to the mainstays of power all of. the executive which now is the executive in the legislative branch together has power

and then there are the institue. the government which exists to surround the deep state. i don't know if i want to go ok but i don't want to be any of them the problem is that. the institutions are we have always been weak and this goes back to even before ukraine's independence there's never been strong institutions in the sense of being independent in ukraine. oligarchy. no then this has been played off by the divisions between east and west of the alternating of power in the political branches but now we have this political branch but we don't have a real leader we don't have a leader because the person and his party don't stand for anything people voted for them not because of anything that they promised or what they said there was no agenda there was no history they promised to bring some peace and

everyone who promised you want everybody promises it was an empty push and go broke it was kind of my question i have is with the last one but if that's what the people want is peace why aren't these leaders why is this a list you know it's a weak institutions and that really we can solution will be executive. leaves the oligarchy to play but the oligarchy are a bunch of stray cats they pull in every direction that they can and it appears from the outside that certain oligarchy have certain levers and certain agendas which are not governmental agendas their personal agendas i don't probably say that certain companies an individual the problem with but it shouldn't but what he was the lead or little dark but that at least offered some direction to the country if not structure and what we have now is the absence of an executive and the oligarchs are rife and at play right now so what do you mean democracy for d m

o r i think they have to basically of what we see is completely contrary to all the western narrative because they promised in 2014 that this is the new ukraine there were the same words used which are they using no fortunately so great you know he was brought to power by these poor people evolution in which by the way 38 policemen were killed and 5 government buildings burned down sometimes together with people inside them but this was not support that was stressed in the western media but there was thing that happened in 2014 professor rightly described it in his articles basically what could be in ukraine before 2014 it was usually use this symbol at donkey to be sex you know one sack wants to go west the other segments to go east that connection between them is very narrow you know and this is the reason why kuchma and you know which never said yes or no to russia or to the european

union because the moment once they say yes we go west the east was off and sorry and what happened in february 2014 was that they destroyed the words destroyed this connection the sec which was supposed to go to the west when. to the west and immediately as they had a civil war this civil war was not the result of russian intervention or you know a rebellion they destroyed the west destroyed by elementary do more kristie which prevent it this contradiction between east and west from going into developing into a civil war but one would make the argument now is with because i don't think that we want to see your done best whatever term you want to use will ever be have a meaningful role again in ukraine they're going to have to fudge it here was crimea is gone so if we take the analogy of the balance it is forever in one direction right now to the west but what does it mean to be part of the west we

still have this issue in the bluefin other places like this where it's very right wing here professor we were before we go to break. where will this continued paralysis lete i think that in the not to distant future we're not going to see a new my but we're going to see probably a general rejection by the ukrainian voters of political 40 generally chaos in the country and quite possibly a rise in anti western sentiment. those who currently want to see a wellington we're going to continue with after a short break we're going to go to a short break and after that show break we'll continue our discussion on some real news.

what politicians do something. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. some want to. let you go on to the press this is like them before 3 in the morning can't be good . i'm interested always in the water. there are no official statistics in india concerning children who have been lost or separated from their parents something to estimate that everything minutes in the country the child goes missing.

the national human rights commission stated that $44.00 sounds of mine has gone missing in every one of the police quoted. the united nations children's fund. described the situation as genocide and various sources suggested in india there are several 1000000 missing women and children. the world is driven by a dream shaped by. the dangers thinks. we dare to ask.

welcome back to crossfire all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing some real news. it was go back to the good professor. you said right before the break something quite fascinating about the future instability of ukraine be considering the status quo elaborate more. well right now as has been mentioned i think there's a dichotomy between those who you're in to see a western. western oriented ukraine and those who i wouldn't call it a pro russian ukraine i would say a truly independent ukraine having an autonomous its own vision of its own foreign policy and you know me just right there is we have to get away from this false 'd

dichotomy. but these a pro western forces have a very tenuous relationship with the. because it's all about what is the west doing for ukraine which is at the forefront at the the ball work of an anti russian. and anti russian policy to the extent that the west and i think it's clear is not going to support that kind of long term anti what the russian initiative these forces in western ukraine are going to be disillusioned with the west and one already sees this in. the statements of current members of parliament for example that maybe we should rename the party servant of the people which is their party into servant of the i.m.f. because the i.m.f.

really has us by the throat and is never going to let go and this is just one example of the of the true attitude of the west toward the would be but you know we would have predict we predicted this long ago because you know do be careful what you wish for ok what about the servant of the united states i mean our state department has since i believe since 1901 and through usaid from 1900 to 2014 i believe $5000000000.00 going to. go ahead well basically it's interesting about $5000000000.00 from the united states then several 100. 8 basically of $1500000000.00 in $817000000000.00 for the year was going to go union and i didn't and the professor made this estimate cinergy $1000000000.00 you'll bring almost all russia in various forms of debt you know. that but what happens i agree with the professor that there's going to be instability

because basically people who elected you because they wanted peace with russia he keeps bullshitting i broadly don't think is the answer you rob. i mean that and corruption is very big yes but now he says that we are basically not going to feel the means could be is that what is just a message that is not what we wish for 2nd so that's not going to be resolved any time so that was but that was the point of reference of respectable if you like the mint's accords you know everyone who is doing well or not doing it was always the point of reference but where do we go from there because it's very key people in the east you know all the people there are patient for peace you know they want peace they don't understand all the intricacies actually the story with the music of course is very simple they presuppose a kind of told me for the east in return for the establishment of ukraine and control over the border the problem is that the ukrainian authorities are not going to give this autonomy they are not and m.s.d.

they are not given special status they continue the economic blockade of these regions well the other interesting we're going to see them very very good to the city of course is going to do something very unpopular you know at least the land reform which which allows private ownership of the land sale for lent including the to organise that is deeply unpopular in ukrainian society the united states have been pushing for this for a long time but even did not dare to make these very unpopular. so in this situation i agree with the professor who wrote a few years ago 2 thirds of the boss residents surveyed in early may in 2014 c. they regarded their mind on as an almost all overthrow of the government organized by their position with this system for the best end of quote that was in 2014 i don't think it changed because what we've seen during these years could. push for more conflict and i think the push for

a lot of other things in the you know in the defense theory we're talking about there being a liar you know he was politically destroyed and that's a moment of supreme justice because it would. he did and you can and will stable and know if he is removed for help in rudy giuliani you know. what i don't want to go even if you run out of ukraine gay guy i'd be really interested to know professor what do in ukraine does the media talk much about the news that joe biden it's all over the news now actually lay down the threat to the ukrainian prosecutor to be fired for the you create for the key have to fire the chief prosecutor who is investigating joe biden son hunter the truth that was that is that we talked about that was described shortly after occur yes in other words i think was january 1018 at the council on foreign relations it was picked up in the ukrainian news but one of the things that is simply taken for granted in

the ukrainian media environment is that the west calls the shots so why is this surprising ok who surprised by this it didn't have any traction in the american media at the time because they couldn't link it to trump but now. now it's coming to you for trying to link it to trump but it was clearly this was political blackmail at the highest level and by the american vice president he says it was on behalf of the american taxpayer but the coincidence with his son's activities in eastern ukraine at the same time makes the coincidence of speeches. i think it's just amazing how far the american narrative is removed from reality you know they are arguing about you know.

there are and what's happened in ukraine was the vice president of a different county seat in your president's seat or that the prosecutor general. will be dismissed in 6 hours if the russian officials get it you know they will say the driver should use it is the route in all the ukraine then the 2nd story what the eavesdropped blame for not saying good weapons on time to ukraine do you understand how this is perceived in ukraine or russia imagine there is a war between canadian saying americans you know and a certain country is late sending weapons to canadians helping them kill more americans and then the protest and you know indignation is not at the united states was in that country how dare you not send these well again you know i mean this is my critique of american foreign policy countries that they meddle in are not allowed agency ok ok i want to go back to ukraine we can do you know the ukraine gate is going to last

a long time here is who buyers of buyers remorse from. 5 years on. on whose part of the ukraine has been general and general well. the surveys show a significant part of the population to be disappointed with the results of. my demo supposed to bring a new vitality and a new quality to the political life but not little has changed indeed corruption by all accounts has gotten worse over the last 5 years right and the country has become impoverished one of the things about the i.m.f. deal which is has been stated often but keeps being repeated now in the press and it's very important to bear in mind because the ukrainian government has just adopted a very ambitious economic program for the next 5 years projecting 40 percent economic

growth roughly 7 percent annually if ukraine in g.d.p. growth grows at 4 percent or above then it will have to. pay 40 percent of profits to the i.m.f. well to the to the people that have extended it credit which as one economist wrote on this wrote very recently makes it simply unprofitable to have high rates of economic growth in ukraine so i also would have to remember that this is a reconstruction growth so that g.d.p. felt a cent in 2015 right after the mind up even if we exclude cranium from the statistics it fell further 6.4 percent next year so we're seeing now the ukrainians are starting to leave some world like what they leave behind a young age may be. may be considered to be a golden age after all these years but the last thing that the mind and did was to

destroy these balance to destroy democracy in ukraine region was one of the things that you were going to want and i want to end on this really do you guys can jump in here i mean giving the don special status is impossible if they agree to it because other regions of the country will the same and you going to be putting the the constituent nature of ukraine at stake in this is that's between the rock and a hard place here if you give one set something others may want the same. what's so there's a debate now one side is using the term autonomy the other side the government is using the term radical decentralisation it's not clear what the difference is although there probably is a significant difference and one should probably stick to the actual meaning of autonomy because what the dawn boss actually wants and what i think many regions of

ukraine would not object to especially in the western ukraine would be some form of greater autonomy verging on federalism but the problem is you cannot use the f. word in ukrainian politics. well that's what the professor all of a few years ago ukrainian nationalists have so little confidence in their ability to do we know with the population that they see local cultural autonomy as a direct path to secession that's exactly true because you don't even. really want people to be. good spokes very. low therefore you want to point. to the choice is between culture and ukraine something that. russia have been striving for recognizing that this is that. each country russian and ukrainian and many other languages and more not least think ukraine you know nationalistic. ukraine and then you get and the west has been pushing for that you know during the

last 5 years but the point is that these last these very division because if you want to impose the same identity on many different people. here and you're you know you have excellent reading skills this is not really going to it's all the time we don't hear many things like it here in moscow and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. units remember. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. the isolation whole community. are you going the right way or are you being

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you've got the. other no to any attempt to say yes to briggs it is the speaker of the u.k. of blocks the government hopes of a vote today with still no sign of certainty anger from both pro and anti breaking supporters and saying some pages on the families fearing for their safety. another news an 8 year old rabbi helping palestinian farmers in the west bank is brutally beaten by water alleged to have been massed israeli said. they returned.