lives comfortable if you want to drive in america be born american or become one the legal way but that's just my opinion. we. put very large very attractive and now very globally recognized source of oil for the world into the future the world's cheapest and best petroleum deposits have been mined out we have to use more energy to get this energy industries grow like a cancer each of these. ten kilometers. and this whole area is slated to. her drinking water that's our wildlife service fishery. this is the end game when it takes two tons of sand to make one barrel. you know here at the bottom. and that's where. the cio.

is. below and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle a war without end with no pre-determined exit strategy israel's most recent invasion of gaza could last for months the humanitarian catastrophe for the palestinians is incalculable how this enhanced israel security is unclear. to cross-talk the situation in gaza i'm joined by my guest nora lester more out in jerusalem she's a writer and blogger also in jerusalem we have martin van creveld he is a israeli military historian and. theorist and in washington we cross to flynt

leverett he is a professor of international relations at pennsylvania state university and co-author of the book going to to round why america must accept the islamic republic of the red cross talk rose of the fact that means you can jump in anytime you want i very much encourage it martin if i go to you first in jerusalem the israeli government says that it has open ended objectives in this most recent invasion of gaza what does that mean to you when they don't say they have any specific objectives. no this is not a question of object if you forget the politics of the war was started by hamas not by use well there's a bone is different the good folk at the types even that i speak for the. much more visual and a couple of days ago they even. the about host which is not well for jerusalem ok nora it's all the palestinians fault is usual here i mean what do you want to achieve and i guess that's the biggest thing is that is to destroy hamas as an

organization organization of resistance against occupation and oppression go ahead norah if you're asking me what israel wants to achieve i tell you honestly i cannot figure it out for the life of me i mean there's one point eight million people in gaza who if they're at least seven years old have lived through three major attacks just since one thousand is it since two thousand and eight i can't imagine how israel can expect those one point eight million people plus the two point five million in the west bank and the rest of the palestinians in the world to believe that israel wants peace and mean israel is going to have to live next to these palestinians in peace how is this attack horrific massacre of human lives lead towards living together in peace i can't begin to understand it myself which in washington is this deja vu all over again because it's quite clear that

israel has had for a long time had plans for the west bank but they just simply do not know what to do with gaza. i think that professor upon krefeld statement that this isn't about objectives as far as israel is concerned is is very revealing israel essentially has no strategy for dealing with the palestinian problem it is committed to open ended occupation we are already at a point where the number of arabs living under israeli control exceeds the population of israeli jews which means that what we call the state of israel is already a minority regime in the areas that it controls and as long as it continues this open ended occupation of arab populations it is going to face resistance it is going to face violence hamas is not some foreign force.

imposed on israel it is a home grown resistance movement and intil israel and i think this would require basically and utter recasting of the israeli state in till israel is prepared to stop being an occupying power this this is what it is going to suffer and it is increasingly going to have made itself in the process martin in jerusalem how do you react to that because. it's been used it's a very grotesque form but you know how often is this is will have to go mow the grass in gaza to secure what it defines as its own security. do. years ago for. me. trolling the air and land i just know that my daughter now

that israel is still in that i mean that to me let me finish let me finish. forty years on though i didn't know the law who lives not far away well the kept up and let me finish ok let me finish i did not give up you go ahead finish up martin you know. for eight years my grandchild leaves not too far for the gaza strip has been. par and the only object leave i think about is that these attacks finally come to a halt ok you know and so there's this is the year israeli argument that's roughly equivalent to see all of the time so explain to our viewers here what is the

average life for a seven year old in gaza in a seven year old in israel i mean i can't speak to the average seven year old any place i'll just tell you what i see from from my that from my dish now of martin we've moved on to nora respect everyone i know how to be respectful to everyone let know has to be please nora please go ahead nora. i guess what i want to say is this occupation which has gone on for sixty six years which has affected different parts of the palestinian community in different ways has in all cases been dehumanizing and brutal and it's just not normal to expect human beings to sit back and just put up with it forever i'm not justifying violence i'm not justifying the mass i'm just saying that if israel really wants security israel must make peace with palestinians if palestinians and israelis can live together in peace then both peoples will be secure but as long as israel wants to have power over and

control every single aspect of palestinians lives then palestinians will resist it's human nature and it's also their legal right and it's their moral obligation to try to improve the lives of their own children so i don't understand the strategy and i'd really like martin to explain it how can you get security by oppressing another people how does that make you more secure to me it makes you much much much less secure ok martin go ahead i couldn't agree more we need we should abolish needed. to warm. part of the very public that would favor the war for the west bank because the wall forgot that because we haven't been there for years if only we could have a for bruce agreement but that. would division of white. because hamas

does not even recognize israel so we're talking about ok you know i mean going to volunteer before we go into the first part of the program i'm going to describe what it is what's going on in gaza here i mean israel wants peace i find it really laughable i'm sorry i mean there's there's so much disproportionate use of force here go ahead. it's a travesty of the legal argument to say that israel is no longer. and soldiers from inside gaza in two thousand and five why it continues. to control all the land and where you go god is it true that around the world and under international law israel is still occupying gaza and they said the reality is that if you look at all the areas under israeli control green line israel

jerusalem the rest of the west bank gaza the golan heights israel the population in that area there are already more arabs in it then there are israeli jews that is what israel has has brought on itself and it is and the two state solution is at this point in my view the two state solution is effectively dead and we are on what is going to turn out i think to be a very very slow very very bloody very painful but ultimately inevitable trajectory toward a one state solution no one can you address that because that's that's really the reality on the ground and you know. it's always like to pitch in western values of democracy and all of that but that's what they can't really square because they

want to have a state a jewish state which they demand which is under international law doesn't make any sense whatsoever but they always claim to have democratic values that's that this is really the problem that they face and it's flinches said it's only going to get worse and worse until they come to a conclusion well if there is a way that it could could stop which would be if the united states. i would stop paying for it i mean actually there's two ways that the united states and other western governments and their taxpayers are enabling the occupation and all of the violence that goes with the occupation all the violence that's needed to maintain the occupation and that's first of all by the u.s. giving direct military aid and other kinds of economic support to israel and secondly the u.s. is unconditional political support for israel even protecting it from other kinds of accountability that it could face internationally so i think if u.s.

taxpayers like me would say to our own representatives as i'm trying to do we don't want any more aid to israel until there is a just settlement of the israeli palestinian conflict that would help that would help a lot the other thing that would help a lot is that unfortunately a lot of the western governments are giving the wrong kind of aid to palestinians they're propping up the palestinian authority in a way that relieves pressure on israel and this is something that a lot of people don't understand which is that as an occupying power israel has a responsibility to maintain the well being of the occupied population or ignore it when it's done the job to do right now we have to go to a short break and out of that short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza state with r.t. .

technology innovation. developments around. the country harvard. think you surely know where you. and me. were.

playing. it. back. to sleep. it looks like. we're going to go digital the price is the only industry specifically mentioned in the constitution and. that's because

a free and open press is critical to our democracy trek albus. in fact the single biggest threat facing our nation today is the corporate takeover of our government and our crowd cynical we've been hijacked why a handful of transnational corporations will profit by destroying what our founding fathers once it's all just my job market and on this show we reveal the big picture of what's actually going on in the world we go beyond identifying the problem to try and rational debate and a real discussion critical issues for you. right there for you ready to join the movement then welcome to. the world.

welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter alito for a minute we're discussing israel's ground invasion of gaza. and i to remind our viewers that our third guest decided to walk out in the first hour of half of the program his choice for freedom of speech here. if i go to you and i'd like to have a little bit on what when norah said it at the end of the first part of the program it seems to me the dynamic is this is that no unity government you know you a mosque isn't given any any legitimacy to be part of any kind of peace process which israel has refused adamantly since oslo in my opinion but it's really it's the palestinian authority that's still real story right here because the israelis and the americans and their friends want to keep the p.a. the way it is it's very subservient and it likes taking money to pay salaries it

likes all those other perks it likes being actually a prison guard. well that basically earns its money earns its income by by its still attaining occupation i think i think nor is points about that are. sadly but exactly exactly correct i thought that her or her points about the united states were were also spot on and i certainly would love to see that kind of scenario that she described where. taxpayers american citizens. putting pressure on on their government on their elected officials that u.s. policy would would change in this regard but but the sad reality is that the united states supports this kind of israeli occupation this kind of israeli quest for absolute freedom of unilateral military initiative in its own

neighborhood because since the nineteen sixty seven war basically american administrations have judged that to be strategically useful for the united states in a cold war context it was great from an american perspective to have this us supply israeli military and keep in mind the united states did not provide military assistance to israel until after the nine hundred sixty seven war when israel showed itself capable of defeating soviet supplied militaries in arab countries in a cold work context the united states decided that to support this was strategically useful in a post cold war period american administrations have thought that a militarily dominant israel was useful in subordinating parts of the region into

an american led regional order and intil american political elite policy elites really get it straight that is this quest for gemini in the middle east and using israel as part of the way that the united states consolidates and maintains dominance in the middle east is just not working the united states is actually declining power in the middle east its relationship with israel is an important part of why. declining powers certainly not the only part but important part of that story and for its own interests the united states needs to reconsider this but the american political establishment is is still very firmly committed to this quest to dominate the middle east it sees a militarily dominant israel as as as useful to that and

you know that that sadly is very very slow to change you know and it's it possible in your opinion that the israelis could effectively stamp out as a resistance organization i mean because that's what it seems like it wants to do right now going around and i don't know go from house to house but it seems to me that that's what they want to do and that's what they're going to call good declare victory but is it possible in your mind or would another resistance group come about. i think they don't know if they can stamp out the mass but they cannot stand out the resistance every single thing they're doing is increasing the resistance i've lived here for ten years and i have not seen i can't remember a time when so many palestinians were so you knighted not behind the mask behind the idea of resistance of too much way too far this is

a massacre there are people literally as we're here debating on t.v. there are there are bombs that are shaking houses there are children screaming there are thousands of people running through the streets trying to get shelter which there is no shelter all the u.n. shelters are full all the borders are closed it's it's a scale of in humanity that's so intolerable and so on except of all that even if those liberal american jews who support israel who are tricked by that rhetoric that israel is somehow forced into massacring other people they're forced into it they wish they didn't have to but they can't do anything else because these evil horrible palestinians i mean even somebody who believes that can't possibly if they have a heart if they have a brain if they have a soul they can't possibly think that it is ok to drop bombs on homes and

schools and hospitals and to kill people and to and to think that it's ok it is not ok this is a massacre which must stop immediately. in watching it very interesting it was a few days ago that a.b.c. news ran that false or mistakenly said clip about the suffering of the israeli people which they quickly apologized for but i think it's really quite telling about what the establishment in the united states thinks of that conflict there's one good side and there's one bad side it's been that way my entire life. yes i think that is that is that is true of the way the mainstream media covers this conflict has covered it for a long time and to great extent continues continues to cover it. i mean the israeli security services horribly brutalized an

american teenager. because that is an american teenager of palestinian origin who was visiting relatives when he came to the attention of israeli security forces you know his brutalization doesn't really doesn't really count. and isn't presented is something that that should outrage americans and should require accountability from the israeli government that was responsible for this for this teenager's. that's right here here is there is a very well established narrative about this conflict and it is clearly biased against palestinians if i can say with you it's very interesting this time around is that hamas doesn't have any more particularly with the egyptian home to know it's really quite alone in this is i guess the israelis see this is the their

opportunity about these missiles that are nothing more than fireworks it's really quite nonsense what western media is covering here but this is an opportunity what with the mouse all alone. i think the israelis are looking at it that way but i think that is a mistake it is certainly true that before this latest round of fighting. hamas was was arguably at its lowest point in terms of financial resources in terms of as you say. regional support regional allies it was arguably at its lowest point since its founding back in the late one nine hundred eighty s. during the first palestinian intifada. hamas said to some degree you know inflicted that decline on itself by i think it made a real mistake leaving its base in base in syria it made

a real miscalculation thinking that the government the egyptian muslim brotherhood government in egypt. was was going to be able to provide it with a strong new regional regional partner those were serious mistakes that that hamas made but i think that what israel is doing is actually doing hamas because hamas is the only significant force in palestinian society in palestinian politics that is that is as norah said is really carrying on this cause of resistance and i think come oscar could actually in some respects politically. emerge stronger out of this conflict than it than it was when the conflict began interesting nor what do you think about what flynt said right there because you could see hamas bouncing back you know and we're all talking very theoretically here and i want to stress what some of the things that you said there that there is a massacre going on in the gaza strip as we're talking here on television just as

you said here but do you think this is part of hamas as calculation. that they're doing it on purpose no no no no a lot of people don't know game stroke i don't know no i'm not saying i'm not saying that what i'm saying is is that this is a circumstance as a resistance group where they can find their feet more and to put it that way because there is a slaughter going on right now and they are all alone yeah well i think i'd like to point out that. israeli rhetoric sometimes will point to these horrible things that hamas has said about is. israel and that's their excuse for saying that we could never talk to her mass or make peace with hamas but i want to point out for people who don't know that those same kinds of horrible things are said by israelis about palestinians from within the israeli government almost on a daily basis we see here horrible things that israelis in office are saying about palestinians for me that rather that that. those those

that's not really very important if we can isolate the extremists in a government in other words in two thousand and six when hamas agreed to run for elections and the international community and including united states supported it that was an opportunity for her master to be enfranchised and to express themselves within the political system but the the outcome of that election was rejected by the western international community by the united states and europe and therefore what is what are these people supposed to do i'm not supporting them or justifying them i'm saying that if you had only one of it's right on out there gentlemen here we have run out of time many thanks and i get to do is live in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the phoenix time and remember. it was.

the midst of liberty. yeah better let me finish she said beginning to get a new chord so quick. look on the polish again it. was made to. play.

do we speak your language any time of the war not a day of. school music programs and documentaries in spanish more matters to you breaking news a little tonnage of angles kidneys stories. you hear just say detroit all teach spanish find out more visit. all tito's comb. and. placed screaming. places tried to claim. a polish going to make news. like your ancestors changing every minute. and. somehow make. the web.

mail like a payment. think the same setting all time place cases most elite limits. sometimes for nothing and disobedient. to look just keep up the story can still be just everything you see a stage eight look to be. but speech was still. different. repeats the same joke of course.

poetry. resistance. international. bodies of the victims. all. groups involved in. the investigation. of everyone involved in the probe. was actually paying his respects.