from a coveted seat on the united nations security council the saudis are furious over washington stance on syria approaches to iran and the failure to support a meaningful peace process on behalf of the palestinians the kingdom of saudi is going out on its own but where. to cross talk saudi arabia's foreign policy i'm joined by my guest in washington james carafano he is a vice president of foreign and defense policy studies at the heritage foundation also we have me he is founder and director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia and we cross to jim lobe he is the washington bureau chief for into press service and publisher of loeb blog dot com all right gentlemen close up rules of i mean you can jump in anytime you want jim if i go to you first in washington these words coming out of riyadh is that bluster i mean the united states and saudi arabia are attached at the hip and they have been for for decades

it's just words coming out of riyadh well i don't think i have any particular insight into what what king abdullah is thinking and obviously he's kind of the supreme decision maker it's not that words are not just coming out of out of riyadh itself they're they're coming out of washington because prince turki just gave a very fiery speech and defiant speech at a conference here a couple of days ago. i think there are two schools of thought one school of thought here believes that it is mainly bluster that. saudi arabia is so closely entangled particularly on the military and security front with the united states that it really can't sue for divorce but there are others who believe that saudi arabia is really quite serious and that it's looking for other foreign partners great powers including for example russia itself to wean itself away from washington. in the long term in that there is

a strategic decision is either about to be made or has already been made to to diversify the sources of its particularly of its security james i mean if there is some kind of diversification diversify to where to whom. i mean what other superpower is there so i think you know i do think the united states ought to take this seriously because quite honestly the saudis don't do this very often i agree and when they do this in good appears to be a very orchestrated way that they're really kind of sending a message now are they are they are they really serious about diversifying and i think that's a more of an open question look if i was running saudi arabia and i was going to create new geo strategic relationships you know being in the middle east that's like doing to track these acts you don't like go the trapeze until you've got something to grab onto and so i'm not sure i would be i would do that in have an open messy public divorce and had already had kind of figured out well so i'm going

to do so whether this is punishing the united states as opposed to a real geo strategic shift. if i was a betting guy kind of bet on the punishment the notion that there's a cataclysmic shift i'm not sure there's enough evidence for that if that does happen the problem for the saudis for doing that is. the middle east is a really messy place and any time you make it messier everybody's at risk including you only how do you how do you look at this here i mean we heard the word punishment in obviously punishment of washington well what does that say of this kind of relationship that the saudis have to go around in public and punish because the united states will invade certain countries it won't it's starting to talk to the wrong quote unquote countries it's it's not condemning the dictatorship in cairo i mean what kind of punishment is that shouldn't washington in brittle be some people in washington embrace and say yeah good riddance we don't you're

a liability to us that is not think about this show and you could do it took understand i did the states. and in the families in the gulf sort of live in the united states and its armed forces this is a fact of life that i took the outcomes of. these speeches the president. so it seems to be actually does this go into. mostly a form of douma stick and for a. consumption the share of data jim is a problem out of this but it's not been a lot of been in its history they have a tie to. and list. in the united states even the out of the big to support their crime paying to attack as had been the home and attack out on and destroy the add on and modernize and they failed in all the front so i've tried it does put it more than i want to before there's nothing they could do to punish to punish the united states and that is

a fact of life jim you can decide. james go ahead you want to jump in because the realignment that kind of realignment is really hard to do considered you know everything is interconnected in i tend to agree them when you start making these changes you can make things really messy are the saudis really afraid i mean an arab spring eventual visit ohio i'm going look. i mean i wanted to i want to do agree though i mean the saudis are in a bad place but there's lots of people that fall for it i think we're at fault for that we i think the last several years our foreign policy has has accelerated making the middle east a mess your place but the saudis have a lot to answer for from themselves i mean they have not taken on the challenge of true economic freedom reform of the political reforms that were really unsure of the law and term stability and the success of the country so there's plenty of blame to go around. the us for sure well jim i mean isn't it is it is how it

is. this is out ahead of this early days when they. are fearful of losing because of without putting and. and also looking for security and the wrong places and instead of relying on their own be able. and. and democracy could afford homes and political participation and parliament of one mind that religious tolerance and give be able to govern this should already be able to stay in on their own country to defend it and to british aid to a country and its location this serbia game is continuing the politics of divison finesse. and tolerance. and. there are always look for somebody a from outside to protect them more than to protect the country because they know as long as there is that of oil and charge out i'll be out of the gulf region the

united states and the west in general on the entitlement shall community it will abort tech to. external and internal crises so that egypt has as desperate and that's looking for somebody to protect it from its own people and stead of a lying on a to be able to defend their country and yeah but i mean surely connectedness between these two countries is vast jim if i can go to you i'm thinking of petro dollars investment in the united states i mean again this is one and i can understand why the saudis are upset because you know they're the people that they think they control are not doing what they're supposed to do quote unquote but then again you know you have invested here in the united states and the u.s. military the military industrial complex certainly doesn't want to see saudi arabia go away after what i have one hundred fifty billion dollars over the last few decades that's a nice piece of change for defense companies. no i mean obviously

there's there are strong interests here in the united states that are very worried that the two countries may part ways or that the ties between them may be becoming increasingly frayed. you know on the other hand i mean it's very clear over the past thirteen years that the region is changing dramatically you know as chaz freeman former ambassador to saudi arabia said at the same conference where prince turki. appeared and gave his remarks. this really is kind of the last region to be in a sense to colonize and where the people of the region and the regimes of the region are coming out from under external protection are asserting their own kind of identities as various as they are so it's a what we have is a situation of enormous fluidity both within the region and among the external

actors who have affected the region and now you have suddenly the possibility of some kind of detente or even rapprochement between the united states and iran and that really changes the regional chess board in very fundamental ways that i don't think people have fully kind of gamed out yet and i think the saudis are particularly worried about that because they do not want to go back to a time before the iran revolution where they played second fiddle to the shah in the gulf region and i think i think that's a major reason for why you see this kind of sudden hysterical almost hysterical kind of reaction and bitter complaining on the part of riyadh if i go to james i mean the great pillars of the of the middle east you know we look at saudi arabia for the united states we're doing israel turkey and we have egypt. they're all of

them are in flux some kind of agreeing with what jim just said there because the world is changing in ways so much faster than we could ever imagine during this old my term new colonial experience they had. put over the bridge that entire region for many many decades it's unraveling and the so decides just don't know what to do you know i just want to get add to that first i want to say one thing that shouldn't be lost here is this really does demonstrate one really stupid idea as which is in america and in western america we have this idea of the notion of energy security as well look if we just weren't dependent on middle east oil then we could just ignore all that well the united states has actually reached the point where it is a net exporter of fossil fuels and energy and you know watch it and we say we're going to pivot to asia and all the rest and you know what we're just as concerned about the middle east as we were before when we we imported more from the middle east because the reality is the middle east is a very important region of the world and a global power like the united states just can't sit back and say well we don't

care what happens there so the notion that somehow we can just ignore all of this not worry about it that ain't true the point is look the point on iran the saudis are worried about a us iranian reproach what are they going to happen that's going to fail what the saudis are worried about is living with the blowback of that failure and the point is that it's a very good point of all that he just being here will continue on that point but we have to go to a short break and after that show frank will continue our discussion on saudi arabia state with r.t. . we will.

you know people worried and they will be worried if when we look to islamic leaders such as when we saw different islamic leaders iranian president say in. europe for the for the woman's womb this look this is not things that we're saying you can just go online and you can listen to even shelly malik in this country who is alive who is the second in charge of gordon brown in a speech she says it's one thousand one woman in paid in two thousand and two mr mathieson two thousand and seven pays and she phones in ten. he says within twenty years every m.p. in this country will be muslim and in between saying these things he says inshallah which is the women choice and his. government and then he says he is a prime ministership prime minister of this country will share all five now that's what he said it was always say what they say. you know. response to. everyone in my life that i cared about their

goal but then. i came askin well. i was a national champion in track and field and also i was able to go in qualify for the olympic games. you know nine hundred eighty eight i started to experiment with that the drugs i had lost all the financial means that i. was really on the street. black market can. get a great. interest. but

. it was a. very hard to take up. once again on a player has never had sex with the perfect hair looks. the. same plug a. welcome

back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle remind you that we're discussing saudi arabia's new foreign policy. on the phone go back to you in washington iran was mentioned here and i think that's where most of us agree this is where a lot of the bridges coming out of iraq originates here but hey as james said it's probably very unlikely they'll be a reproach of any kind of normalization of brain and relations there's just too much the israeli lobby in congress too many other people in foreign policy circles have just gotten so used to having around as an enemy and it's a useful enemy also in the region for the united states and other interests i mean is there any i mean the the the saudis saw this coming are they overreacting to

that because the likelihood of a full reproach maulvi is very small i think we would all agree. i disagree truly i have one of these so it is many frustrations and fear. to deal with. the out of spinning and and they are fearful of the united states and europe one of the appeal of all. to the mid eighty's and the mid eighty's and tightly defined differently than they used to before the autopsy bring nobody nobody ican talk nobody kind of shoulder here in washington like they used to why that is think tank cars or government over jails or anybody that this isn't about a games in the middle east who will escape the. the end pact of the out of spring and that is why the saudis for isolation has been building up because they saw the downfall of. banally in. the hand of god daffy

and there was not stupid people i mean there. but there was some powers know now that the trend is going and the direction of be able are weakening and what that will be like a top of my torch have been i'm going to out of board as unstoppable and out of it and none of the former model still existing. i would be spared the be able to be able of all charges by the knowledge that intended for me on this earth is biggest nightmare has been i need approach my between the united states and it on and on and as i have fought exam but their biggest fear is that there is a lot of ties and i think that is going to be hard because i think the iranians have a lesson that they don't to blow a fire to want to comes to apologise like the united states because of the ends

article a very good point surely if i go to gym here if i go to gym i mean it's look at this from the other way around i mean if there is some kind of relief in washington that somehow they can lower the profile of the relationship with saudi arabia because i mean the more you learn about saudi arabia and it's not talked a lot about in western media but the more you learn about the country wowhead does it's not really up with the times to say the least here and it can be a liability for the united states in the region as we're talking about this flux here and third if ali is correct it's only you know it's only a matter of time before the arab spring visits riyadh only amount of turn yeah i mean i think that discussion is expanding and i think that i think the saudis are kind of forcing its expansion in washington i think they're forcing people to assess is saudi arabia really a net plus for the united states or is it is it also a liability and i think alice remarks and for that matter james's introductory

remarks about the degree to which saudi arabia has kind of. placed that selfless award history and said stop you know with the arab spring and is now trying desperately to roll it back not just in bahrain but with billions of dollars in sub venture to egypt which are probably not sustainable in the long term i think that question about well how much do we really need saudi arabia. is occurring to more and more people in washington and i think also i don't think it in a sense that they're there helping their own cause the the decision not to take the nat the security council seat was seen as. biting off one's nose to spite one's face. and and similarly these kind of gratuitous attacks by prince bandar and to

a lesser extent by prince turki i don't think are particularly appreciated at the present moment especially i think when what could be called the foreign policy establishment believes very strongly that these diplomatic effort with the iran is really worth pursuing and i think you can see that even reflected in how prime minister netanyahu of israel has modified his remarks just in the past week because i think he's getting the sense that there really is a degree of interest in washington in moving toward detente with the ron that hasn't existed before sorry ok it's and i think you have been causing a lot of people to assess you brought up israel james that it's quite interesting because a lot of people in the greater middle east the arab world would see saudi arabia and israel strongly aligned on many many issues here or what do you think the israelis are picking up on the q.

now also is that you know the sands are shifting here and that kind of relationship will change you know i. we can disagree and look. closer at us already and thing is going nowhere it is just not going to happen it's a dead end it's actually going to be incredibly destabilizing and countries like saudi arabia and israel are freaked out because they know that it with all this ends at the end of the day they're going to be worse off and and this is look if you look regardless of what you think about us foreign policy and what we should have done here's the one thing that's indisputable if you look at what's happened the last four or five years in all the countries that really are important to us in the middle east and that together if you had strong buy that relations with that would actually make a difference turkey saudi arabia israel i would put jordan in that category as well in iraq we've lost ground on every single one of them and i think that's indisputable and so the realities of bad things are we could is it

a bad thing jay syria it would have been nothing to get better i would agree with you but only to bad so horrible thing you why because we're why it's absolutely a horrible thing because we're not because because it's going to diminish the ability to protect our vital interests in the region and our number one vital interest in the regional is to not see the region destroy itself ok jim do you want to weigh in there because a lot of people would say a lot of these problems are because of the neo colonial project that was established here after the first world war and intensified after the end of the cold war is now knows it's going to find wasn't a good thing to argue about and then we go to jim come on come on go ahead jim. well unfortunately i didn't hear exactly what i was saying at the end there i mean my. my sense is that that there that well i should say first of all i mean israel has to kind of foreign foreign policy strategic traditions and one is making peace with the arab world which was always the dream of the labor party and

particularly of yitzhak rabin and the other was no you will never make peace with the arab world you have to arrange your alliances with the periphery and the periphery was iran and turkey most importantly and. that has been followed and tell the nine hundred ninety s. by the party and you'll recall that it was under a look government that israel was supporting iran during the iran iraq war. and the notion that israel itself may make some strategic reassessments of its own i think it's not a fantastic one and indeed you're getting a lot of murmurs certainly from the israeli national security establishment now that the deal that people think may in fact be quite doable with iran that is

strict limits on their enrichment capabilities that would make it impossible for them to move to a nuclear weapon within one to two years is a quote reasonable unquote solution it may not be the perfect but it's a reasonable solution with which israel could live so it may be that you'll see israel depending on how these negotiations go moving in a somewhat different direction than it has over the last fifteen twenty years i mean i think there is a lot in motion in the middle east and it's very difficult to predict what will happen. for example predicting that the iran u.s. negotiations will go nowhere i think they may be i think the chances are somewhat better than that only if the saudis really want to put their money where their mouth is here they wouldn't go to a good end ok james go ahead reply go ahead this is crosstalk no no i just didn't

say i didn't say they wouldn't go nowhere i just said they wouldn't and well big difference and well for whom. for everybody in the region ok ali let me go to you if the united states is desperate to get a deal and the israelis may live with a deal that doesn't mean that the audio visual i want to go let it stay with saudi arabia here. only if i go to you i mean any kind of this is what really infuriates the saudis because the saudis will no longer have that kind of influence the kind of influence they have now in washington because you have a greater balance of forces in the in the greater middle east and this is exactly what saudi arabia does not want. the only of it was this early days have. as the flaws that there was and especially our country had given them we gave them them for no one to support them we support of them and put out there and eyes and also. strive to gaze at on as

a kid merely eighteen million people eighteen million people across the other from this show india's age so what a quote of the oil company and i know exactly what iran is capable of going off and i don't intend as of inflicting that to them on the damage to the saudis and our interests i think it is in the best interests of this show id be able maybe not this show idea government but this i would be able to have a good relationship with their powerful iran is the most trying to ball for a country and the r. and b. and east. and but on the iran and you know give and take and an emanate this. friction between and i need to make room for one at a time we're going to get more going to keep an eye on the shifting sands lands in this region many thanks to my us in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here see you next time and remember cross talk rules.

to be yours you don't know if you don't panic or no response to really. everyone in my life that i cared about their goal much. that i came to skate well. i was set national champion in track and field and also was able to go and qualify for the olympic games. you know nine hundred eighty eight i started to experiment

with that the drugs i had lost all the financial means that i. was really on the street. black market the kids. great. interest she. took right from the scene took the first trip. and i think pictures. on a recorder splitter and an instrument. and. to be in the know. and.

deliberate torch is on its epic journey to such. one hundred twenty three days. through two thousand nine hundred tons two cities of russia. relayed by fourteen thousand people or sixty five thousand kilometers. in a record setting trip by land air and sea another's face. a limp dick torch relay. on our t.v. archie dot com. hello people watergate and they would be very different look to islamic leaders such as when we saw the different islamic leaders the iranian president said in the islamic call to your freedom and through the woman's womb is that this is not. you can just go in knowing you can listen to even magic in this country he was alive he was the second in charge of gordon brown in the speech he says it's three thousand one where one has been paid in two

thousand and two mr matthews in two thousand and six mid seventy's in two thousand and ten maritime museum in peace he says within twenty years every m.p. in this country will be muslim and in between saying these things he says inshallah which is a choice. within the. government and then he says we want. our minister of this country which are all five now that's what he's saying there's no way that's what they say. we're now it's like two active camp at guantanamo where patients are at the moment or i'm out of the first right never turn world's attention to the ways that some.

of our time. a breach of trust you leaders expressed frustration with their long time ally after reports that u.s. intelligence has been eavesdropping on dozens of world leaders also. we have. as migrants from africa and the middle east struggle to rebuild their lives on the other side of the mediterranean we report from a refugee camp in the heart of europe. and there you asked policemen who pepper sprayed a group of peaceful protesters is awarded compensation for psychiatric damage a ruling that's likely to fuel anger over police brutality.