well i'm john r. been in washington d.c. and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture award winning journalist and author naomi klein joins me for the first half hour for a special edition of conversations with great minds talk about the growing occupy wall street movement and crisis could mean for our nation and a local hockey five protest here in washington d.c. took a turn for the worst four months of an agent provocateur we'll talk with an activist about the chaos he witnessed firsthand.

birthrights conversations with great minds enjoyed an award winning journalist syndicated columnist and internationally bestselling author naomi klein the only one is a contributing editor for harper's and a reporter for rolling stone writes a regular column for the nation and the guardian is also syndicated internationally her writing has appeared in dozens of other major newspapers including the new york times the washington post newsweek and the los angeles times in two thousand and four reporting from iraq for harper's magazine earned her the james aronsen award for social justice journalism she is a former miliband fellow at the london school of economics and holds an honorary doctorate of civil laws from the university of king's college in canada in two thousand and seven her book the shock doctrine rise of disaster capitalism became a number one international bestseller and has now been published in thirty languages with over a million copies in print her first book no logo taking aim at the brand bullies

was published in one nine hundred ninety nine it was also an international bestseller a new york times called it a movement bible time magazine named as one of the top one hundred nonfiction. books published since one thousand nine hundred twenty three and a literary review of canada has named it as one of the most in it as one of the hundred most important canadian books ever published and very pleased to welcome naomi klein to our new york city studio and this edition of conversations great minds and we welcome thank you tom it's great to be with you thanks for joining us you said that the image that ultimately cause you to join the occupy wall street movement protests was a photograph of a young woman holding up a and made sign and said i care about you you call this you call this a radical act can you elaborate on that. yeah i found it very moving and there was there was actually another another another sign that was part of the

same photo essay that i was looking at of somebody else building up a sign that said compassion is a radical act. and i was really moved by it in large part because i am increasingly convinced that all of the change that we want and we talk about you know what are your demands and you know maybe universal health care or it might be free public education that none of this is going to happen in less we really shift the underlying values of our culture and particularly american culture and the idea that these young people would be holding up signs that say i care about you you know on wall street it is such a radical act because you think about what this culture treat teaches us to do what it really is to not care about each other to harden our hearts to each other to not look at the homeless on the street or at the extreme end to shout let them die at

a republican. presidential debate when a question is raised about what to do about somebody who hasn't purchased health care insurance so you know these are the types of values that govern this culture that make the sorts of excesses that people are protesting possible so that's why i was so moved by that sign of just somebody holding up a sign that said i care about you and as i talk to people at the protest camp at the occupy wall street at liberty plaza i often hear the stories about what strong people there why are they there and they talk about people coming up to them on the street and i met a young woman who told a story about a man came up here on the street and said i love you and she was completely taken aback by this but then she just realized you know well. maybe that's not so bad she told him she left him to. the kind of thing happening in new york right now very odd moment do you think it might be

a. you know i suspect this is something probably canadians are far more aware of than americans because the indigenous rights movement in canada has been so well established over the last at least in the last few decades and so well publicized it would change in the northwest territories and all that other thing and and the the idea of decisions being made in a circle by consensus by an actual governmental body which doesn't exist anywhere in the united states but does in a province in canada and we're seeing that kind of thing and almost a potlatch culture are. already out of it which again i think most americans are unfamiliar with and yeah and most canadians probably are happening if the heart is no if most canadians are i mean i don't think most canadians are familiar with this kind of gift economy that you see down there and it is that is so radical the idea of just freely giving each had their health care freely feeding one another and that nothing is ask in return and you know that is is if you think

about this generation of young people who have grown out at their absolute peak of consumerism and everything is about consumption and buying and selling and people are just in love with the idea of a space that is commodified but yeah i think there is a difference in canada and this is where it's sort of like how do you change the values of a culture it's tricky because you know in canada we do have public healthcare we do have universal health care and i've always felt that that changes the character of our country is the fact that we don't have to as canadians develop a rationale for why we let people die if they don't have the money to pay for their health care that that has that makes that's what i think somewhat of a you know a more compassionate people in someway. so yeah i have it's tricky because once when you bring in these when you bring in policies based universalize education

that universal health care people change their values change as well sell and maybe that's how you do change the values that i have a culture i think you think you've nailed it in shock doctrine you talk about disaster capitalism capital season disasters to reinvent institutions and the world to their favor and i'm curious it's kind of a two part question here for you first we just saw a bank nationalized by frank in france and belgium you know this whole mess that's happening in europe and i'm curious your thoughts on that but also and this may even segue out about at least for europe and hopefully here doesn't history also show the reverse that for example f.d.r. seized on the disaster of the republican great depression to create a strong social safety net and guarantee the right to unionize and if so might this crisis equally backfire on the disaster capitalists. it could well i mean you know

in in the shock doctrine i am very clear about the fact that what is wrong with this tactic as practiced by a right wing ideologues is not that they respond decisively to a disaster with profound policy changes because of course a crisis is usually of some kind of a message i mean there are some crises that are just like an earthquake in doesn't mean anything it just happened over a society might be more vulnerable to the effects of that earthquake if they've neglected the public sphere but if you're talking about an economic crisis or you're talking about disasters linked to climate change. these these disasters these crises are telling us there's something broken in the system you should fix that you should respond what is sinister about what i describe in the shock doctrine is using crazies to push through policies that the vast majority of people oppose afton policies that are the exact opposite would be of what people voted for

. and is using the chaos in the panic to push through these these measures under the guise of sort of emergency measures but what's interesting about the tap tactic is exactly what you say tom that really what we've seen is a strategy developing on the right in response to the understanding that if you don't have this right when shock doctrine strategy particularly in economic crisis will be an opportunity for progressives and of course the case in point is the new deal this was studied very closely and we understand what the phase of capitalism that we've been living through of deregulated privatization you know what is often called neo liberalism this whole phase of capitalism is a revolt of the elites against the gains of the new deal and doing those games so a huge amount of study has gone into trying to figure out how to prevent a repeat of that and that and that's why you have all these think tanks that are

ready. and waiting with their policies no matter what the crisis is to push it through and so this economic crisis this despite the fact that it was created by deregulate deregulated capitalism the solution that ends up getting proposed to pay the bill for this crisis is more deregulation more tax cuts for the rich it makes absolutely no sense that's the shock doctrine that disaster capitalism what's happening on the streets of new york and in cities around the world is people demanding what they actually voted for and and demanding. a firm response to real crises that actually gets at the underlying issues that caused the crisis and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that not only is there nothing wrong with that we desperately need it well and speaking to what people voted for and you know here in the united states in two thousand and eight president obama. one of the speeches you gave just four days before his russian was you know you stand with me and i will fundamentally change america and we will fundamentally change the world that's

a revolutionary call it's it's not the kind of call that you would expect to hear from a republican running for very good or even a democrat in times of stability. and well i mean people often forget that the core debate right the real standoff at the turning point in the two thousand and eight election was going mccain said the fundamentals of the economy are strong great and that when obama said no they're not so of course as you say you with elected to implement fundamental change and he didn't and that's why i say people have taken to the streets and gone to the locations the symbols of financial power that people understand is have has been the blockade to that kind of change thoughts on where he may be going or where the american political process may going be going as a consequence of this should we call it charitably a missed opportunity. well i think you know where it's gone is

into the streets and this to me is a tremendous source of hope because my fear about the obama presidency might one of my greatest fears about the obama presidency was that the young people who really were the heart and soul of his campaign in two thousand and eight who knocked on doors and sucked on floors and who got in politics got into politics for the first time because they were inspired by the type of rhetoric that you were just quoting and they believed that this was going to be fundamental change and of course one of the issues that most energized these young people was climate change because this is their future and and then when when when nothing happened in so many areas and particularly in environmental environmental regulation but also in job creation and student and student indebtedness and the ability to afford education and and and so what i was afraid of is that this generation would just go back. to their

homes and decide that politics is just for losers and disengaged because of course there's been many generations of young people who dishes and gauge from politics in this country and that's what so hopeful about this moment is that rather than disengaging and lapsing into cynicism or nihilism you have a generation that says that's learning from learning from their experience and going ok we see that the system it's had some fundamental flaws even if the president isn't interested in fixing those flaws we're going to get to work fixing them and so you have all kinds of debates about what you know what are the structural problems money and politics the fact that corporations are treated as persons under the law these are the types of debates that are happening. down at occupy wall street and i think we're going to start to see some very radical demands come out of this movement. it's just takes a while to have a democratic process that. articulate those demands but i don't think that you know

some people have talked about how this is sort of. a left wing tea party or that they're just going to be kind of the this sort of street heat for the washington policy wonks who have ideas for how to tinker with the system i don't think that this wave of demonstrations and outrage is going to be satisfied with only being that i think that they're going to want to articulate their vision for a better world and i hope they do because because they deserve that it certainly seems that they are we'll be back with more of our conversation with naomi klein in just a moment. drives the world the fear mongering used by politicians who makes decisions through get through to be made who can you trust no one who is you who with a global missionary city where we had a state controlled capitalism is called satchels when nobody dares to

ask we do our tea question more. welcome back to conversations with great minds tonight i'm joined by award winning journalist syndicated columnist and internationally bestselling author klein naomi

you were recently arrested as part of a two week old civil disobedience campaign aimed at pressuring u.s. president barack obama to walk the proposed pistone x.l. will one. what what was pipeline mean and what motivated you to stand on the front lines like this. well you know i've never been arrested before but i have spent the past three years really immersing myself in research about climate change i'm working on a on a documentary film in a book that is about how climate change can be a catalyst for us to make the kinds of social transformations that we've been talking to talking about because so many of the real solutions to climate change are also solutions to the economic crisis in terms of real localizing our economies and rebuilding our infrastructure and creating jobs so i'm very immersed in sin and

very aware of of the clock ticking of of how little time we have to get this right which is also why i'm so excited about occupy wall street and the potential for a new energy infusing that mission. but. the keystone x.l. pipeline the reason it is such a very big deal for the climate is because because it's a pipeline from the alberta tar sands down to texas a very large pipeline that will actually massively increase the capacity of the tar sands right now what's happening is that alberta canada is landlocked and one of our politicians out recently used the phrase that alberta finds itself landlocked in bichon which means the chairman is the is is the name for the tare substance that eventually gets kind of boiled down to crude now the process of turning that tar into into

a barrel of oil is it an incredibly energy intensive process so it isn't it's just that you know we're against the tar sands because it's oil it's a particular kind of oil but it is it's unconventional oil and it emits three times as much greenhouse gases to produce a barrel. well out of the tar sands and it does to do so out of conventional canadian crude so personally and you know in the opinion of great many environmentalists who are who i trust the choice is just an absolutely and viable and immoral project it's the largest industrial project on earth and it and because of it my country canada is emissions have gone up by thirty percent despite the fact that we have signed the kyoto protocol so it's really an illegal operation and so the keystone x.l. pipeline would increase the capacity because right now they don't have enough arteries to get the tar sands oil out of alberta right now so they need to build

more arteries and keystone x.l. is a major major artery so that would allow them to to to accelerate the production of the tar since it's bill mckibben the wonderful environmental writer and co-founder of three fifty dot org describe the keystone x.l. pipeline as the world's longest fuse to the world's largest carbon bomb so that is why so many people got so passionate about stopping the keystone x.l. pipeline the other reasons are just the dangers inherent in the transportation of the oil because tar sands oil is more corrosive because it has to be mixed with so many different chemicals just to get it through the pipeline so there's been all kinds of spills on either of the pipelines carrying tar sands oil or that have carried tar sands oil so the communities that live along the pipeline the proposed pipeline route have their own reasons for being against it but my reason for going to washington getting arrested alongside more than twelve hundred other people is

really about my opposition to the tar sands itself and you know i've been very open about that the reason why we got arrested outside the white house is because you know one of the things we're always hearing from the obama white house is that you know they. would like to do more about they're always being stopped by these they aren't republicans and and and you know obama sort of positions himself to the environmental movement as being their ally as being our ally but were it not for all of these obstructionist people in congress the thing about the keystone x.l. pipeline is that because it is a project that comes from canada which is still another country it actually doesn't have to go through congress to approve a process it has to be approved by the state department because it's a foreign project so the state department has to issue what's called a certificate of national interest they have to say that this pipeline is in the national interest of the united states and then obama has to sign off on it it

doesn't go to congress at all so in a sense we've really called obama's bluff and said ok we're taking you at your word you really want to do something about climate change but congress won't let you now you can't hide behind congress this one's on you you have all the power to stop this thing it's an environmental disaster twenty of the top climate scientists have come out and said so several of them got arrested alongside us in washington d.c. including james hansen and so now we're waiting to see what obama's. is there a canadian i mean here's a major political movement in united states and again you know the bill because it is by and large driving although there are a lot of people involved with it. is there are. in canada because this is the source of this oil absolutely and there was a there was there was a solidarity action in ottawa even though it isn't up to our government whether this happens it's up to the u.s.

government this happened our government has made it absolutely clear that if they want this they travel back and forth to washington like traveling salesman pushing this thing so we're under no illusions that our government will stop this but there was a big action in ottawa where i think four hundred people were arrested so this is happening and it is true that the wonderful bill mckibben has spearheaded this but . then our major partners in this was a group called the indigenous environmental network and they really have been the organization that have put the tar sands on the map around the world they do a lot of work in europe campaigning against the big headquarters of the oil companies that are in in the tar sands doing work with pensions things like this and the indigenous environmental network and it has really led this campaign and we kind of joined it late in the game as bill said when we were in washington and they played a huge role in iraq and i think the washington d.c. protests and the day i was there arrested was the indigenous day of action and so i

was arrested alongside some really wonderful indigenous leaders like tom gold tooth so it was a very it was a very moving day because. because the tar sands you know they are not just a disaster for the atmosphere they're also a disaster for the land for the water and alberta and the people who are most directly impacted by that are indigenous people who live downstream from the tar sands. you road no longer go back and ninety nine which. i think energized a lot of people awaken a lot of people. to the peace and influence of corporate i was going to say corporate culture but really the impact of corporates marketing shall we say for why the better word on culture how corporations are bold in shaping culture and and how we can push back i'm curious if you see in the four minutes we have left here and are. from that book to the conversation we just had about the x.l.

pipeline and in all the stuff we've talked about in between it's seems to me that there's a fairly smooth art but i'm curious your thoughts on that. yeah. you know. that book is about the rich the the rise of corporate power and corporations emerging as more powerful than governments but also as our as swallowing our public spaces and swallowing our political process privatizing our education and i absolutely see a thread of connection and one of the reasons why i think it's so powerful the way that young people at occupy wall street are taking such a tremendous pride in their ability to create a commodified space in the center of capital and in the center of maybe the most consumer city in the world and it just speaks to that perennial

desire for freedom for real freedom that these companies are so good at marketing and selling to us as a product i found it really kind of interesting to think about. as all the memorials were emerging for steve jobs and thinking about the way in which. apple come come modified the desire for liberation in so many ways that this think different campaigns using imagery of of martin luther king and gandhi and it's really a double edged sword because of course these technologies have helped the protesters i mean i mean our the fact that so many of us are on twitter and and and that we have this ease of communication is has helped us come together but once we're together what what is most meaningful to people is the fact that they are really connecting you here so that words so much when you're down and occupied wall street . is is is people are people say that they finally feel connected to each other

they realize that they're not isolated and that they're not just communicating with their friends on facebook or on twitter they're having these face to face exchanges that they've never had before in a really liberated space so if the technology in some ways allowed us to come together but once we're together what's what's so liberating is being free of the technology which kind of brings us back to the culture decision where we begin we have about a minute i have to wonder what do you see in that short time what do you see as the biggest problems facing us right now on your thoughts about what we should be doing about it. i mean for me it really is it really is the climate crisis and i would like to see the ecological crisis more integrated into these protests against the failing economic failing economic model a failing economic system because personally i see the ecological crisis of which

the climate crisis is in some ways the most dramatic but i am no means the only example of the ways in which we're sort of hitting the wall of what our natural systems are paper ball of absorbing it's true if that's true that the climate speaks to the ability of the atmosphere to absorb our pollution to absorb our carbon but our oceans can't absorb what we're doing to them either are reversed can't either so you know our this is also about the logic of of greed taking over our lives and we need to see that we have an economic system that is just strong the systems on which it depends it's devouring those systems and that's happening socially and economically when we see how our infrastructure is falling apart and we're failing to educate our young people we're destroying ourselves just for profit but it's also happening ecologically i believe that is the strongest indictment against this economic logic and also that it has to be our catalyst for

acting quickly because we don't have much time brilliantly said naomi klein thank you so much for being with us. thank you for having me tom it's an honor to watch this conversation again as well as other conversations the great minds go to our website or conversations with green lines dot com. coming up the smithsonian is quickly transformed to a mix of screams and. it turns out the right wingers are trying to sabotage the ninety nine percent. but drives the world the fear mongering used by politicians who makes decisions to put it through good sort of it being made who can you trust no one who is in view with the global machinery see where are we heading state controlled capitalism is called satchels when nobody dares to ask we do our tea question more.

oh i'm sorry but in washington d.c. here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture leaders of the republican party try to our nation's capital this weekend to follow at the feet of the so-called values voters summit.