have a great one. drums along the delaware. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, castle's falling. who's safe? what politician does not live in fear right now after what happened last night? if the most unbeatable of institutions, a beloved politician like michael castle can fall, who knows for sure he or she will be standing come this november 2nd election night. yes, the first walls to fall have been the republicans, they were the first line of defense of the way things are. watch what happened to them.

now come the democrats, crowded in the last. will they do better than the republican palace guard of specter, bennet, murkowski and all the pillars of the grand old party establishment, the country clubber, the moderates, the rhinos, and most hated of all, washington office holders? bill clinton said yesterday that even george w. bush looks like a liberal compared to republicans running today. great line. but are the dems whistling past the graveyard in the republican party has already been taken by jim demint and sarah palin and sean hannity and rush limbaugh. the victories of the right slow them down or cheer them on? that's our top story tonight, for the simple reason no one knows. tonight, we will meet one man they have to beat, delaware democrat chris coons, who now faces the brunt of the onslaught of christine o'donnell. plus, are the democrats getting wiser, sharper, stronger in their defense or are they pointing their guns in the wrong direction? they want the moderates to lose so they could face rand paul and sharron angle, marco rubio, now

christine o'donnell do they now stand naked before an enemy they once thought weak? and what does the tea party takeover mean for 2012? does the national party get on board and nominate a right-winger? are we looking at 1964 all over again? let me finish with a thought, a lock at the voter rage we are seeing this year and why no one in office should feel immune to it and we have one important election result right now it is made official late this afternoon, in the republican primary for the united states senate up in new hampshire, former state attorney general kelly ayotte, sarah palin's choice, beat back a strong challenge from conservative ovide lamontagne. ayotte won by less than 2,000 votes. we start tonight with the smell of battle lingers from last night, grand old tea party. chuck todd, nbc news political director and msnbc correspondent and pat buchanan, msnbc analyst. pat, in the innering sanctum,

where you meet sometimes with the heart of a true administration, are they sure they are lucky the right is winning these battles of the republican party? >> i will say this. they act as if there is a little bit of a bounce in their step today, as if they see a path to survival. i'm not going to say it is a path to victory but a path to survival, suddenly, you hear these guys talk about man, maybe democrats will hold the senate, you know? maybe this -- maybe the republican party is going to be too extreme for the middle of the country and while they may have short-term success in november that when they get to -- when they get to washington, the chaos of it is going to allow the president to look like the reasonable adult in the crowd. so, in essence, first of all, i think they are just relieved that fosh three days, for a couple of days, they are not the punching bag and instead, the media is all focus old -- focused on this intraparty feud. let's face it political parties do this time and again,

particularly after they have had a bad defeat, the republican party has been purging itself of not just the moderates but of sort of the people that have been the go along, get along in their minds. >> okay. >> anybody that has worked with this white house. >> well, i think they are wrong. here are the the tea party candidates that shocked the republican establishment in year, christine o'donnell in delaware with, rand paul in kentucky, mike lee in utah, ken buck in colorado, joe miller in arkansas. back in the 70s, they had frank mouse who said, i will run against orrin hatch, he would be tough. oh, ronald reagan, he is a winger, way out there lost twice already. every time the liberals think, hey, great, we are running against a far right-winger, they lose. >> well, i do think that there is no doubt that mike castle would, on paper, be a much stronger candidate in this race and i think -- >> why didn't he win? >> very simple, because the people at the grassroots said to the republican national establishment, you don't pick

our nominees, you don't impose them on us we pick them here, you guys for eight years or more than that under bush destroyed the republican party 2006. we lost both houses. you nominated somebody that got less of the vote in california than barry goldwater. now, thank you, we will pick our own leaders. and i think it is an excellent message to send. >> by the way that is the speech that edward dirkson gave. >> twice you have taken us down the road to defeat. we shall not follow you again. >> frightening. that was 1952. chuck, here is karl rove. i want chuck to jump in here, karl rove and sean hannity on fox last night with one point of view. let's listen. >> it does conservatives little good to support candidates who at the end of the day, while they may be conservative in their public statements, do not evince the characteristics of rectitude and truthfulness and sincerity and character that the voters looking for. there's just a lot of nutty

things she's been saying. sounds like you don't support them, but i will tell you -- >> i'm for the republican, but i got to tell you, we were looking at eight to nine seats in the senate, we are now looking at seven to eight in my opinion. this is not a race we are going to be able to win. >> one point of view, a bad night for republicans, the winger won. here is another point of view, chuck, respond to this here is limbaugh today reacting to karl rove, let's listen. >> why not fight for it? castle is okay as the 51st vote but this woman isn't, with her character problems, her rectitude? the democrats, for crying out loud, what do we hear about the character of ted kennedy? what do we hear about the character, and for god's sakes, the character of barack obama? does anybody not give a -- he is destroying our country. >> chuck, your thoughts. is rush right or karl rove right? bad night, good night? >> here is the thing. on mike castle, if you are a rush limbaugh conservative, a jim demint conservative, okay,

and you feel like this is -- is where you stand on these issues, then you're right. you have this split between karl rove who believes political power matters. sometimes you got to compromise on your ideology to get it and jim demint, who says, you know what look, you're better off -- you're better off shutting down the government in some form or another or shutting down the party. don't compromise to the point of where power is it really worth it if mike castle and scott brown at the end of the day -- >> i hear chuck, i hear you. you're doing the absolute accurate reporting here and yet, based upon all the tactical

facts there's no doubt that mike castle was a better bet in the fall. he was the reason -- >> of course. >> but i want to tell you what i saw last night. i'm going to talk about at the end of the show. i'm not looking at these races one at a time, i'm looking it he juice in the voters. >> right. look at the -- >> the desire to get to that voting booth and vote with all you got against what is going on now. that comes at the democrats in november that juice, i'm getting rid of these bums if that's what fires up the voters on november 2nd, the democrats are screwed. that is what i think. >> she may be flawed, she may be flawed, but she is young, she is fresh, she is pretty. quite frankly, she gets up there she is happy, she is going to be a fighter. the trouble with rove and these folks, they have been corrupted by power. all they care about is let's get back in and get other 50 seats and chairmanship and all that that is not how howe a great movement is created. barry goldwater what ever you say about him, we were proud of going down to defeat with him and preferred to have going down than have won with rockefeller or scranton. and when you get that kind of

energy, fire and enthusiasm, eventually, that's what translates into five of six presidential wins. >> your description, by the way, perhaps a winning with overfired party, the democrats don't have that juice right now. >> they have don't have it. they had it with obama. >> two years ago. demint here, making the case for juice. you may not win every race but you got to picked person you believe in. here he is talking to fox news.com. let's listen. >> well, i don't want the majority back if we don't believe anything. i came into the senate, we had 55 senators a large majority in the house, republican in the white house. frankly, we didn't do what we said we were going to do so i think if we want the numbers if we want the majority, then we are going to have to stand on some principles that the american people believe in not so much political principles, but just common sense economic principles. >> what kind of a democratic party is it going to be, chuck if it has to win elections by personally trashing the opponent, whether it is christine o'donnell or sharron

angle. don't win because people like you, don't ask people to like harry reid or chris coons, who will be on the show in a minute, see whether people like him or not, just say how terrible the other person is and you can't afford to let him in there. that is no way to build a spirited political movement, it seems to me. your thoughts. well, it's not, but when things are unpopular, not the first time we have seen that's how candidates survive, whether it was chuck robb making sure everybody had a certain view of ollie north back in 1994 or what we are seeing harry reid do to sharron angle. at this point, you know, the voters in the middle are so upset, they are not listening to positive argument now, they are only listening to a negative argument. the question i have is you see how this can benefit the republicans short term, with enthusiasm with getting people fired up. how does this benefit long term? where does this leave the senate? if this stoun

if the senate becomes -- be this town becomes a town that is even more gridlocked than it is now, and then the republicans own this, look, you know, somebody e-mailed me today and said, hey, i'm from minnesota. we've tried this tea party experiment. we did it in the version of jesse ventura and four years -- about two years after the fact, they got over it and this person was sort of predicting, that is probably the way this angry middle of the road voter might be now, tempted to say throw them all out what the heck, give these tea partiers a chance, they are not going to like what they get, these guys might come here and say, grind the gears, you know? put the brakes on. >> republicans don't necessarily lose with harry reid sitting up there, the face of the democratic party in washington, d.c. him and obama. frankly, i talked to a conservative, said he hopes pelosi, reid and obama are the face of the democratic party going into 2012. the key, chris, is to do what nixon did in 1968, bring that conservative base, which was disenchanted with the rockefellers, bring those guys together and try to reach that working class democratic group, which is frankly the national majority.

and those are the guys you got to get back, the working class. >> i agree with you. that's what happened when you came back strong in '68, but can you be marriage counselor between the party of sarah palin and the party of mike castle? how do you get them together at the altar? >> mike castle's in the back of the bus. >> how do you get the republican -- the tea party people get excited about mitt romney. >> that is mitt romney's problem to get those guys excited. that is exactly right. but you are right -- >> you like romney? >> i think romney's a good guy, but i will tell you -- >> is he a leader? charismatic leader of the right? >> if he has not called miss o'donnell by today and said -- >> he has already sent her some money? >> he has? >> on top of it reporting the news here. christine o'donnell has already got a nice big financial kiss from -- passionate amount of money. >> this is what he is going to say. we node to get everybody together. >> i finally got you stumped, which is how do you -- chuck

that is the question the next two years, after this election, how does the right deal with the center right? how does the republican party put together a coalition of the wild christian conservatives out there on the right with the people that usually win elections? >> well, and look, don't forget this white house is going to have a lot of fun. look, i have a feeling, bob bennet, lisa murkowski, mike castle, i will throw in arlen specter, a lot of these sort of disenchanted republicans that either got lost or forced to out of the party, that suddenly, they are going to have higher profiles in the obama administration at in some form or another, you are going to see the president playing with these. these guys are not stupid, they are going to mess around and try to create these problems -- >> chuck, chuck -- >> and susan collins are also going to -- >> talking about -- you are talking about road kill. you are talking about road kill. arlen specter? arlen specter is not the wave of the future. >> i know fox is for the right. yoth which way this network is at that any way, thank you, chuck todd, great reporting. christine o'donnell faces chris coons in delaware and is that the matchup that has

democrats feeling good. chris coons joins us live in one or two minutes when we return. we are going to have the guy on that has to face the full fire of the tea partiers. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ sniffing ] [ male announcer ] missing something? like 2 pairs of glasses for $99.99 at sears optical, with bifocal lenses for just $25 more per pair. hurry in to sears optical today and don't miss a thing. time to face the pollen that used to make me sneeze... my eyes water. but now zyrtec®, the fastest 24-hour allergy relief, comes in a liquid gel. zyrtec® liquid gels work fast, so i can love the air®.

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as we move forward, i hope that my democratic opponent learns the same lesson that my republican opponent learned, that dirty politics will

backfire n a state like delaware where it is small enough to get to know all of the voters, that is exactly what we intend to do this next month and a half. it won't -- it didn't work for castle, it wouldn't work for the democrats. >> welcome back to "hardball." that is republican senate nominee christine o'donnell of delaware today referring to her next opponent as the democrat. he joins us now, chris coons, newcastle county executive in delaware and democratic nominee for united states senate. chris, thank you for joining us tonight. you have got an interesting challenge ahead of you. she is a very attractive candidate, very charismatic. she doesn't want you talking about her. is that a fair rule of engagement? you can't talk about her background, you can't criticize her financial dealings? is that a fair way to look at an election? >> well, chris, thanks for a chance to be on. i think the right way to look at this is the way delaware's voters look at it which is they want to know what the ideas are that christine o'donnell or i would bring to the u.s. senate. they want to know what the next senator from delaware is going to do to fix our economy to get this country become on track to

tackle spending and the debt and to really solve their real problems. if in the course of that we get into some exchange about ideas become our background about our experience, i think that's great. i think that's constructive, but i do agree that delawareans really don't like the kind of personal, negative attacks that characterized the republican primary and it may have had some real role in its outcome yesterday. >> do you think she is qualified to be the united states senator, walk in the united states senate door and make major national decisions about war and peace and fiscal policy? big questions. can she handle them? >> chris, the role of the united states nor as you put it is a big job. you have to be prepared to speak to a whole range of issues, domestic, international, not just for delaware but for the whole country. i think it is important in the next couple of weeks as we put our background and our experience out there for delawareans to have a chance to really look closely at my opponent's experience and background. she has dedicated most of her public life to a fairly narrow range of social issues and has

fairly conservative views on those and very limited experience in managing anything, being involved in the private sector or the public sector, i think that should raise some real concerns for them but i think that is judgment ultimately delaware's voters going to have to make. -- some of the things i have done in office and the things i offer to delaware voters. >> are you personally put off by the fact she led this very strong, charismatic catholic/christian campaign on sexual issues over the years, that she spent part of her time getting well known on those issues? does it bother you personally that someone like her with that background, should run for public office? >> no that doesn't bother me personally, chris. i mean -- i respect anybody who steps up and takes on the challenge of running for office. she has run three times for the united states senate from delaware. and anybody who runs for office, local or national, i think takes on a real challenge. i have spent the last six months listening to delaware's voter the,

meeting with delaware's working families and hearing their real concerns there is a lot of folks who are anxious, angry, lost their jobs, lost their homes, having trouble making ends meet and i think that contributed to the real momentum for change that we saw in 2008, that lots of folks voted for and worked for in 2008 and they are frustrated about not getting the change out of washington that they were looking for and i think that contributed to the outcome in the primary yesterday in delaware. >> do you think president obama has done a good job? >> i do, overall there are some things i differ with him on. i am a democrat. i would like to see the democrats and our elected leaders have the opportunity to make real progress. i think the senate and the house and the president have passed difficult legislation in these tough times there are things i disagree with the president on. i'm going to washington hopefully as the next senator from delaware not to represent the party but to represent all the people of delaware, to fight for the sort of independent and moderate, fiscally conservative solutions that delawareans have always championed and that

congressman castle frankly, for most of his career, also championed. >> would have you voted for the health care bill as it came to the floor and finreg, financial regulations, came to the floor, those two issues, voted on financial passage, would have you have voted yea or nay? i would have voted yes on both of them, chris. i think the challenges that faces the senate in the future, the congress in the future and the country in the future is making sure as those two landmark pieces of legislation are implemented that we keep a close eye on how they are contributing to the growth in health care costs, whether we rein in health had care costs without squelching innovation. health care is one of our greatest areas for innovation, export, employment. we need to make sure we are not squelching that at the same time we are reining in the growth in health care cost. i think financial regulation, wall street reform is important it is a great way for us to protect consumers, a way for us to make our economy and our markets more strong, more robust, more transparent. but there's a lot of details in both of these bills that i would disagree with and i look forward to working hard on with friends and allies in congress and in

delaware to make sure that we are responsibly implementing these landmark pieces of legislation. >> have you asked congressman castle for his endorsement? >> i had a private conversation with the congressman last night. he is someone i have respected for a long time. i have known him since i was in high school. and he has served delaware well for 30 years as a statewide elected official. i thanked him for his service. i expressed my gratitude for everything he has done and we are going to continue that conversation, but at this point, i have not asked for an endorsement. i think it's important for the congressman and his wonderful wife, jane, and all of their friends and supporters to have a chance to process what happened yesterday. >> would you like to have him endorse you? >> yes, i would be honored to have the support and endorsement of a man who served our state for the last 30 years as a two-term governor and nine-term congressman. i do not agree with all of his position. i was preparing to run against him this fall in a way that drew the sharp distinctions between us in a few key issues but there's lots of ways in which

the congressman, i think, has served our state well. >> okay, thank you very much, chris coons who is running against -- are you going to debate her on television? >> we have our first candidate forum tomorrow night. we are working on scheduling debates. i do think delaware's voters deserve the chance to hear the differences between both of us. so i look forward to debating her. >> i would like to have her on here, wouldn't mind having both of you on together at some point. thank you very much. up to -- to obviously up to her as well. thank you very much. up next, why did sharron angle back out of a debate? she was supposed to debate harry reid. she challenged him to a debate and then said i don't want to do it. is she worried or getting ahead of him on the polls and doesn't think she need it is? you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ technician ] are you busy? management just sent over these new technical manuals. they need you to translate them into portuguese. by tomorrow.

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june throwing down the gauntlet to senate leader harry reid during an interview with nevada reporter john raulston. >> you know, john, what i think is interesting is that we are tonight picking on all of these little topics that harry reid is throwing out there. >> harry reid didn't throw this out there. you put it out there. >> i would like to see harry reid come into this studio with you and i and have a true debate. >> well, a real debate. senator reid accepted the debate, set for october 21st, a thursday night, which is a great night for getting a big audience on television, but what happened? angle just declared she would not be participating in the very debate she asked for originally. her alibi? "we have always been very clear that we didn't want to debate after early voting started because we wanted an informed electorate." well, early voting starts just five days before this now-canceled october 21st debate. raulston estimates 80% of the electorate wouldn't have voted by that point. that aside, how would an extra

is hour or so of angle answering questions make the electorate less informed? me thinks she protest too much. next, burn notice. jon stewart and steven colbert gave us their takeaways of last week's debacle stirred by that crazy pastor down there in florida. >> the american people do not want the mosque there. and of course, muslim does not want us to burn the koran. >> exactly. destroying a religious symbol and building a religious center are really the same thing, if you don't think about it. [ laughter ] and i will tell you who really hasn't thought about it, sarah palin's facebook page. >> so did yosemite jones burn the koran like he promised? >> wee feel that god is telling us to stop. >> oh, really? god's telling to you stop? when god told you to do it originally, he hadn't anticipated the backlash is that it? let me ask you this when god told you not to burn the koran, did it sound like this? don't be a [ bleep ] idiot, dude!

'cause that's not god. that's everybody. >> did you get the rest of the story there? pastor jones never met with iman rauf or the organizers of the islamic center near ground zero when he did travel to new york. so, why did he go to new york? finally, listen to what new york mayor michael bloomberg had to say about city's first attempt at using electronic voting machines. >> we have been told at some polling sites that opened two to four hours late. that is a royal screw-up and it is completely unacceptable. >> new york ditched its old lever machines for ballot scanners but across the city voters complained the type was too small and the ballots too hard to feed into the scanners the city's board election says they will work on fixing the problems in time for november's general election. wow. coming up, will tea party victories like christine o'donnell in delaware actually energize democrats? they need something to rev them up, of course. should they be happy today or be

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this is your cnbc market president obama will appoint elizabeth warn ton oversee the consumer protection agency. she is a favorite of wall street and of labor unions. u.s. forces were drawn into a deadly fight in iraq for the second time this week. iraqi forces were sent on a rage

in fal lieu jaw. a second round of peace talks between israel and the palestinian leaders ended with no word on when a third round might take place. bp says the relief well should meet up with the busted well by sunday. the government is ordering oil companies to permanently plug about 3500 wells in the gulf that have been sitting idle for five years. hurricane julia weakened to a category 3 storm further out in the atlantic. i'm veronica della cruise. republicans in delaware nominated somebody that they don't believe can win with, i think the words of the state party chair, couldn't be elected dog catcher. >> welcome back to "hardball." that is white house press secretary robert gibbs on senate primary winner, christine o'donnell.

she and other tea party republicans knocked off establishment candidates in primary after primary but are democrats underestimating the appeal of tea party candidates at their own peril? eugene robinson is a pulitzer prize-winning columnist and msnbc analyst. gentlemen, both of you, the conventional wisdom, the cw, the democrats had a good night last night night they now have candidate that will be easier to beat, that was their view coming out of nevada, got to face sharron angle instead of sue loudon. these tactical victories do they cover a more frightening reality out there of the anger level that has driven people to vote for people they don't even think are qualified because they are so angry? >> right, exactly. >> your answer, my answer may be not be good as yours. go ahead, gene. >> absolutely. i think they do tend to look past the anger that is out

there. the anger is not just at the democrats. it is not just directed at the establishment but the republican party as well, which is, i think, arguably in as much trouble as the democrats. what they must not look past is these unbeatable candidates are not all unbeatable. i am not sure that o'donnell is so unbeatable in delaware. i think she is less likely to take the seat than castle would have been. >> a guy i talked to about polls today thinks this will be a single-digit race. this is not a wipeout. she is a contender. >> i was impressed with how smooth she was last night as she spoke in victory. she is not sharron angle. she is not carl paladino. she's not rough hewn as others are. i think she beats out carly fiorina in the likability

department. >> talking to voters outside a polling place in newark, yesterday in delaware, i was struck by the fact that all the republicans are really in a message-sending mood. the democrats were kind of slinking in and out of the polling place to do their duty but the republicans were coming in and out with a sense of purpose. >> make it sound like they are walking their dogs. >> sort of what the scene was like. but the -- they were angry and they all wanted to vote, almost all of them wanted to vote for christine o'donnell. not all of them did because of some of the negative advertising that mike castle put out there, but all of them knew that she, not he, was the way to send a message to washington. >> more fun to vote for her, more juice? >> yes. >> now the question i'm getting from a lot of people -- >> a lot of women by the way. >> a lot of he -- the producers want this simple question. it may be whistling past the graveyard, the fact that the right energized the left. going to be a terrible year, i'm not voting? >> in and of itself -- i think that energy has to come from within the democratic party.

i think the president, the congressional leadership, somebody's got to do something to try to juice up the base. i don't think it juices up the base that tea party candidates are not republicans. >> you talking my language, i think the only people happy this year are the ones miserable. they are so miserable they are happy they get the vote. >> jeff gerson a really great democratic pollster gave me numbers that said one out of five voters in his survey say they don't think it makes any difference voters whom they vote for. one out of five doesn't make any difference. more than a third are democrats. >> what does that mean? >> well, he said people said we don't -- it doesn't make a difference who we vote for, the situation so bad. washington is so screwed up. >> i don't think republicans think that? >> republicans don't think that, very small percentage of republicans but a lot of democrats do, what obama has to do is restore the message he ran on in the campaign and convince people of it that he really can change things around here and that they will change the republicans in the worst direction.

he hasn't made that sale yet at all, hasn't even really scratched the surface here. >> i can't believe as of midnight last night, close to midnight, establishment folks still saying she can't do it, this can't be happening. all across the country, this disbelief, almost cognitive dissidence. i know it is happening but i don't believe it is happening. i don't believe mike castle who won 30 years in a row lost last night. they haven't absorbed it. it's like it happened but won't happen again it won't happen in november. >> that is exactly right, chris, what is going to be really interesting is to see the dynamic between this tea party element and the republican party, which, you know, i wrote last night, when you ride a tiger, you go where the tiger want to go. republicans are trying to -- they are going to go where the tea party was. >> my favorite war with no that the i fought in any, the french and indian war, perfectly perfumed french officers and the iroquois, okay? different rules of engagement,

but they were on the same side. and the indians would come in and slaughter them, do whatever they were going to do, the french would say, oh, how indecent of you. they took the victory, though. they like the win. >> you said it much more colorfully than i ever could what i was been to say. somebody is living in an unreal world here it is either karl rove who doesn't think she can win in christine o'donnell. >> doesn't think she can win or she is in the real world because she doesn't -- mike castle's not going to endorse her. we heard that tonight. >> but he is not going to endorse the democrat either and listening to christine o'donnell to on sean hannity's radio show this afternoon, she was almost daring mike castle to endorse the democrat. >> why? >> because she has got it in her mind she is the iroquois and everybody else -- >> the settlers. yeah. >> almost saying to mike castle, go ahead, go over there. i don't care. >> in other words, she wants the dead cat to go into the house of the other guy, right? >> yes.

>> mixed our metaphor. >> indians, cats. >> we're trying to figure this one out, obviously. >> i tell ya, i think you cannot pay for juice. the people that really care, you watch the baseball team or the football, more like a sport, like basketball that really is about wanting to win. the team that really has to win tends to win. that's why all the nba playoffs go to seven games. you have to win, right? and i just think when the party says we are going to win this damn thing, beat those guys, they are the people that will get to the polls in november that is what i think after last night. i know i'm odd man out. i think this is very strong news for the right, when their people can get this animated. thank you, gene robinson, thank you howard fineman. i think you are with me. i'm not sure. up next, sarah palin helped make christine o'donnell a win. what does that say about palin's power? what do you think? you are watching "hardball" here on msnbc. ♪

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we're in this to win. [ cheers and applause ] and we're in this to win big. and win big we did. don't ever underestimate the power of "we the people." welcome back to "hardball." christine o'donnell, just saw her there, later signaled out an endorsement that turned out a big game-changer for her. let's listen. >> so again, you betcha. there's another woman i got to thank. you betcha. thank you, governor palin, for your endorsement, because she got behind -- she got behind us war-weary folks and gave us a boost of encouragement when we

needed it. and she was a vote against the politics of personal destruction. >> well, how could the voter anger we have seen in these primaries affect the 2012 republican race? david corns, washington bureau chief for mother jones magazine and writes for politics.com, michelle bernard, an msnbc contributor and president of women's independent voice, somewhat to the right of this guy here, i'm going to ask to you start this i have seen in the past a party, this in that case the democratic party ran a centrist after having been driven all year by liberal anti-war forces. that was '68. bobby kennedy and gene mccarthy and everybody ran a pert and then ran an old warhorse like humphrey, disaster. i ask you the republican party after the excitement of the tea party seen this year and going to next year, run an old warhorse like mitt romney or some old party guy when, in fact it is all about excitement and then they stifle it? will it work? they have to run a tea partier?

>> they might have to run a tea partier. i mean if you look at what has happened with the tea party movement it is extraordinary. two years ago, no one paid attention to them. we looked at them as being people on the far right, on the fringe, very few stories about them in the news and now it is tea party candidate after tea party candidate. what happened in delaware last night was completely extraordinary and for "establishment republicans," as much as some people might want to ignore what is happening with tea party candidates, they don't have a choice but to listen to what constituents are telling them, constituents are -- some constituents are saying we value party, principle and freedom, ideological purity over winning elections. >> how can they run a mike castle-type, pawlenty or romney after all of this characters have been popped off this year? all their guys raises a head against a tea partier, anybody that looks like a country clubber would be gone. boehner would lose, mitch mcconnell would lose. >> two points. first, we have to see how these tea partiers do with a general

election audience. >> you are taking the -- >> no no. no. >> you are trying to -- >> see what happens. >> you are still denying it. to >> see what happens. >> you're still denying it. >> you know i'm not denying it. i think there are major threats to the democrats, but we've got to see what happens. >> let me get it straight. as the titanic sinks and it's up to the top decks there, let's see how it affects the first class passengers. the boat's sinking, the establishment's sinking. >> leonardo's still holding on tight. we'll see what happens at the end. the other point is, you know that presidential primaries are like family holiday gatherings. all the internal dysfunctions get played out. really what happens right now whether the establishment comes and supports people like christine o'donnell or not. those passions are going to be really stirred up. and carl rove continuing to battle with the tea party forces, then i think it'll put more pressure and create more anger on the far right that will turn into explosive, you know,

it would be explosive. >> you're using a lot of words. >> i know, i'm sorry. >> i look at rand paul as a guy who is going to win. i look at pat toomy as a guy who is going to win. your thoughts. >> if you look at the people who have been basically sent running from the republican party this year. we've got cristy, arlen specter, lisa murkowski. there is definitely a lot of dissension within the republican party. and quote unquote establishment people could literally see themselves completely knocked out of republican politics by the time we get to 2012. >> the establishment lost every one of these races. the people winning are all of the challengers. and every night i happens, i say this can't happen, this can't happen, castle can't lose. specter can't lose. they all lose. the establishment of the politics of america is playing

defense now. >> the republican -- >> they're losing. >> the republican establishment. all those republicans who are beaten, most of them would probably have done very well in the general election. what we're worrying about now is that castle would've done better than christine o'donnell. joe miller probably will win, but he has a smaller chance of winning, at least that's the conventional wisdom. >> how many points are you giving me? >> how many points will you give me? >> you keep acting like this is all over. >> but i don't believe it's all over. but i do believe that the republicans have this internal split. >> i cannot see the republican convention meeting wherever they're going to meet at tampa, right. they're down there and they're thundering with delegates. one of these tea partiers after another. storming in the gates, all excited about how they're going to get rid of the 14th amendment, the 17th amendment. and energize the 10th amendment, love the second amendment, and then they go pick mitt romney or pawlenty. i don't see how it happens.

>> who is the tea party candidate? sarah palin? who else? >> yes. >> what if she doesn't run? >> i don't think this is the death now for quote unquote establishment people like mitt romney. he's a good guy. we don't know. i know you think it's funny -- >> i can't believe you like establishment-type republicans. >> he knows how to change his skin. he's already sent money to christine o'donnell. >> but he'll never make a campaign like christine o'donnell. we're not going to see that type of a flip-flop from mitt romney or from others. >> pretty mobile when it comes to -- >> that's what i'm saying. >> he was multiple choice on abortion rights. >> they look to the vice president to sort of send that message. >> we will not see someone like christine o'donnell on the republican ticket in 2012. >> it makes that whistle sound when it's ready to make the coffee. and whistle is making that sound. >> they are just as popular as the democratic and the republican party. >> you put a lid on that, baby.

thank you, david cornyn, thank you michelle bernard. i think you're a rockefeller republican. when we finish, let's talk about the voter rage and everyone who holds off should be worried right now. you could be the next mike castle. by the way, i love the name for a establishment republican, castle. watching "hardball" on msnbc. hey ! chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry ? chocolate ! chocolate it is ! yeah but i'm new too. umm... he's new... er... than you. even kids know it's wrong to treat new friends better than old friends. at ally bank we treat all our customers fairly. with no teaser rates... ... and no minimum deposits. it's just the right thing to do. and then there's most complete. like what you get from centrum ultra men's. the most complete multivitamin for men. it has antioxidants to help support your immunity and nutrients like vitamin d for your colon.

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let me finish tonight with a

question. just where do you think this explosion of voter anger we saw last night in delaware and have seen growing in voters in pennsylvania, florida, utah, nevada, kentucky, colorado, alaska, and just about every poll across the country is going to take us. last night as the dust began to clear, i heard that the anger was on the verge of busting out. how could voters in the general election go so far as to like one of these candidates the angry primary voters have kicked up? i suppose i had my eyes on something different. while others were seeing dead people, the defeated mike castle who was supposed to be so strong this november, i saw the strength of the flames that consumed him. and will consume many others this rapidly approaching election night. i've waited all my adult life, which the voters have the fire to reach up and burn those who have been running the show for decades, but i didn't know it would come from the right, the center. 2010 could be the first year

when being in office and part of washington is the worst credential for voters. i don't know how long the fire will burn. i suspect it has a long way to go. it could topple the house and the u.s. senate. it could bring the defeat of people who feel even now they are not endangered. it could produce an election night spectacle of name brand politicians standing before stunned supporters saying their careers are kaput. why is this happening? because this economic system is failing to produce the security and opportunity that people have come to expect in this country. in this middle class country, the middle class is scared. and when people are scared, they get angry. they sense a rot at the top and are ready to chop it off. if the plan of those in power is to raise a ton of cash and run nasty tv ads saying you can't vote for this new person, i suspect the voter will say, are you telling me i have no choice but to vote for you? are you saying that i, this little voter out there dare not take a chance on someone who has not yet let me down as you have?