could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. that is our show for tonight. judge and the judges.

growing outrage over supreme court justice samuel alito and the upside down flag seen outside his home, a symbol used by some election deniers. why it is raising more questions about the high court's credibility. whisman jamie raskin, ranking member of the house oversight committee, is here to talk about that. and game. donald trump's first criminal trial could wrap up next week. harry lippmann and adam klasfeld have been inside the courtroom to denote what is to come, including whether trump will actually take the stand. and republicans gone wild. from flock and trump's trial to hurling insults and committee meetings, congressional tales which is a whole new level as congresswoman marjorie taylor greene triggers this epic clap back of congresswoman jasmine crockett. >> someone on this committee and starts talking about somebody's bleach blonde bad build but body, that would not

be engaging in personalities, correct ? >> a what now? >> i'm jonathan capehart. this is a bleach blonde bad old butch body edition of the saturday show. in the coming weeks, the supreme court will hand down rulings in two pivotal cases related to the violent january 6th insurrection, including whether donald trump has sweeping immunity from criminal prosecution. decisions that will have enormous implications for american democracy. a new revelation is reigniting grave concerns, if not fear, about the impartiality of the high court's conservative supermajority. on thursday, the new york times reported that neighbors of justice samuel alito snap photos of an upside down american flag flying outside of the jurists home in virginia.

the pictures were taken on january 17th, 20 what 21, days before president biden's duration and days after rioters stormed the capitol. since the nation's founding, and inverted flight has been widely recognized as a sign of distress. it has also been used as a symbol of protest by the right and the left. after the 2020 election, some trump supporters co-opted upside down flags in support of the 'stop the steal' movement. there are images of rioters at the capitol holding them. so, it is no wonder, according to the times, some of justice samuel alito's neighbors believe the flag was a political statement. they say his wife had been in a dispute with another family on their block over their anti- trump sign that included an expletive. in response, justice samuel alito told "the new york times", "i had no involvement whatsoever in the flying of the flag. it was briefly placed by my

wife in response to any produce of objectionable and personally insulting language on yard signs." neighbor say the flag was up for several days. even if we take samuel alito at his word, it doesn't alleviate concerns of political bias on the court. as the times points out, " well the flag was up, the court was still contending with whether to hear a 2020 election case, with samuel alito on the losing end of that decision. we see samuel alito wanted to take up that case involving mail-in ballots in pennsylvania . now, senate majority whip and house democratic leader hakeem jeffries are calling on samuel alito to recuse himself from all cases related to the 2020 election, including trump's presidential immunity case . if this call for recusal sounds familiar, it is because we have heard it before. justice clarence thomas is also facing calls to recuse himself

from cases involving trump and the 2020 election after it was revealed that his wife, conservative activist ginni thomas, was at the 'stop the steal' rally on january 6th and pressured republican lawmakers to overturn president biden's victory . the fact is, there's no way to force either justice to recuse himself or to hold either one accountable. critics argue that has to change, especially since public trust in the high court is the lowest it has been in more than three decades. is my next just points out, on and off the bench are our supreme court is waist deep in maga. joining me now democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, ranking member of the house oversight committee, former lead house impeachment manager in donald trump's second impeachment trial and author of "unthinkable, trauma, truth, and the trials of american democracy." whisman, thank you for coming to the saturday show. your reaction to this story and samuel alito's response .

>> well, justice samuel alito's response makes it clear he understands it was a political symbol to turn the american flag upside down. it is a universal symbol of political distress and, in this case, of specific opposition to the inauguration of joe biden. it is what the maga right was calling for at that point. if it were not a very clear political symbol whose meaning is well understood, justice samuel alito would not have gone to great playing pains to blame everything on his wife. in any event, the u.s. supreme court is the only court in the federal judiciary, indeed the only court in the land that does not have a binding ethics code where you could actually go and complain to some tribunal about what is happening. what we need is to have, at the very least, an ethics panel of federal circuit judges from around the country who we can

bring complaints to of bias in the event, in the very likely event that justice samuel alito does not decide to heed the cost to recuse himself from this case. it is a very clear conflict of interest. >> what you are talking about, is about a provision or provisions in the judicial ethics enforcement act of 2020 for you and your democratic colleagues introduced in committee? i'm just wondering how would that act hold the justices accountable? has the bill even had a committee hearing yet? >> no. under the republicans, there have been no hearings on any of the ethics reform legislation pertaining to the supreme court. yes, that is a provision and it is one of the very strong ideas we have. another possibility is to create an inspector general for the u.s. supreme court to be reviewing all of them very inadequate financial disclosures, the travel, the

junkets, the gifts. if you are in the u.s. house of representatives or you are in the u.s. senate, members don't even go to starbucks and accept free coffee from a lobbyist. if you are on the supreme court, there are members taking automobiles, stagecoaches, private school tuition for family members they are helping to pay for family members property. it is like the billionaire sugar daddies who are in that federalist society ecosystem are able to fasten on to particular justices and the ethical temperature there has just plummeted. so, you know, as the supreme court jurisprudence drives to the right, the specific members get more and more lax, both

about their own political commitments but also their own financial entanglements with the billionaire class. >> so then i would take it that the answer to my question, should samuel alito, for that matter, justice thomas, should they recuse themselves from 2020 election related cases, your answer would be yes? >> of course they should. but, you know, as we were just saying, the house of representatives is not doing anything to try to improve the situation. they are protecting the chaos and the ethical collapse of the supreme court. we are going to have to try to deal with this through elections and the assertion of popular power because we have a completely corrupt governing class going right up to the supreme court. >> okay, congress men jamie raskin, we have to talk about the chaos that erupted on thursday that you were in the middle of, as we saw in the opening at the house oversight

and accountability, the markup on the resolution to hold attorney general merrick garland in contempt. let's watch another piece of it. watch this. >> do you know what we are here for, you know why we are here? >> out of order. >> us-1 talking about. >> i think your fake eyelashes are missing up. >> order. >> must determine. >> that is beneath even you. that is beneath even you. >> i have a point of order and i would like to move to take down marjorie taylor greene's words. that is absolutely unacceptable. how dare you attack the physical appearance of another person. >> are your feelings hurt? >> move her words down. >> girl, baby girl. >> really ? >> don't even play. >> okay. for folks who don't know, when you hear a woman of color proceed anything with baby girl, you better run. congressman jamie raskin, you said in that clip "that is beneath even you, ms. green. how shocked were you by this

behavior? >> look at the thing about discussion in a parliamentary body, which is by definition filled with a lot of emotion and passion, is you can talk about substance, you could talk about process, you can invoke science, you can invoke culture, you can invoke literature. the one thing that you cannot do is to engage in ad hominem, personal attacks. you cannot insult someone's looks in the united states house of representatives. so, the democrats moved, the vice ranking member of the committee moved to have her words taken down. and mother chair of the committee did not have the moral authority or the leadership within his own ranks to be able to do it because they are all afraid of marjorie taylor greene. she basically is constantly threatening that she's going to turn her millions of twitter

followers on anybody who gets in her way. they refuse to take her words down and to keep her from speaking for the rest of the hearing. i told the chairman if you allow it to go down the road of personal insults and ad hominem attacks, and i've never seen a chair allow that to happen, there will be no end to it, we will dissolve into chaos. of course, we did. >> congressman, one last question, that committee meeting was actually postponed from 10:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. so that republican committee members could attend donald trump's new york trial. how do you feel about that? >> terrible. it was supposed to be set for 11:00 a.m. they changed it in the middle of the night so everybody's schedules were thrown into chaos. but, they skipped out on their actual legislative duties. they missed, a number of them missed votes on the floor of the house of representatives and they came back and it was just a frat house atmosphere

and all they really wanted to do was to provoke and taunt our members and marjorie taylor greene obviously was the lead in doing that and one member there, to their site, to her credit voted with us not to allow marjorie taylor greene to persist in her antics and her provocations. so, good for lauren boebert. marjorie taylor greene now is like donald trump cannot she is lawless, she is incorrigible, she is provocative. all she wants is in the limelight. they refuse to deal with that problem. they will not curb her in any way. >> congressman jamie raskin, ranking member of the house oversight committee, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show.

>> thank you, jonathan, great to be here. coming up, ethical concerns about the supreme court don't stop with justices samuel alito and clarence thomas. how the courts conservative supermajority is using a legal doctrine to twist the constitution and unravel american progress. legal and political analyst dahlia lithwick is here to discuss her latest article. you are watching the saturday show on msnbc. ness. search talent all over the world with over 10,000 skills you may not have in house. more than 30% of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now.

"9 out of 10 people don't get enough fiber" benefiber is the easy, gentle solution for every day. its plant-based prebiotic fiber nourishes good bacteria in your gut working with your body to promote digestive health. with so many ways to enjoy, benefiber is your fiber, your way. this charmin ultra soft smooth tear is soooo soft and soo smooth. charmin ultra soft smooth tear has wavy perforations that tear so much better for a smooth more enjoyable go. charmin, enjoy the go.

it's never a good time for migraine, especially when i'm on camera. that's why my go-to is nurtec odt. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. it's the only migraine medication that helps treat & prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. people depend on me. without a migraine, i can be there for them. talk to your doctor about nurtec odt today. a slow network is no network for business. talk to your doctor that's why more choose comcast business. and now, we're introducing ultimate speed for business —our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile.

and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds... at no additional cost. it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! shell renewable race fuel. reducing emissions by 60%. ♪♪ we're moving forward with indycar. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress.

the upside down flag, a symbol used by some trump supporters election deniers that "the new york times" reports flew outside the home of justice samuel alito isn't the only controversy testing the legitimacy of the supreme court. my next guest rates "america is being held captive by a small, stupid, perpetually changing theory of legal interpretation variously known as a regionalism." it is a legal doctrine that aims to interpret constitutional texts east on their understanding at the time

of ratification in 1788. just to review, back then, enslavement was legal, women had almost no legal standing, and only white landowning men were allowed to vote. forget about same-sex marriage. currently, originalism is being used by the courts conservative majority to favor laws that push an unpopular far right agenda on a host of issues, including guns, abortion, and our elections. as dahlia lithwick points out, " originalism is the invisible force that allows a handful of unaccountable jurists to unravel both progress and understanding along with the wants of the majority. joining me now is dahlia lithwick, legal correspondent at "slate," msnbc lot and politics analyst and host of the amicus podcast.

dahlia lithwick, welcome to the saturday show. let's start with justice samuel alito in apc co. wrote in "slate," you say samuel alito's isolations for the upside down american flag make the story even worse. how? >> well, i mean, as representative jamie raskin just said, jonathan, throwing your wife under the bus has to be the saddest, saddest defense i've ever heard. but, the notion that, as he said when he clarified the story with a reporter from fox news, that the problem was that the neighborhood was roiled in politics and some his decision or his wife's decision was to respond by punching back with politics? that is the definition of the problem, right? if this were just he didn't like the way a tree was falling over his property and said you know, this is a neighbor dispute and i suppose we could shrug and say it was a dumb idea to do the flag but it is

over nothing. the fact that this was over the election itself and he decided to perform an act of resistance to the election result is the definition of what it looks like improper judicial behavior. i think it's him since he served himself not at all by further indicating this was a political fight about donald trump and the election and that it is his wife's fault but be, he decided it was a good idea to wait and that fight while he was hearing cases about the legitimacy of the election. >> let's talk about your sleep piece on originalism. it is part of a larger series until the legal theory is basically holding our country hostage. you write, "a system of law that relies on stability, predictability, and consistency can function one history means merely whatever five immature historians decided means at any given moment." how have the conservative

justices used originalism to twist the constitution so far? >> there's two parts. one is that we don't quite know what originalism means anymore . when it was kind of invented or really flagged as a great legal idea in the 1980s, it meant original public meaning, it meant original intent, what the framers wanted the constitution to say. that became too tricky because multiple framers wanted different things. then it becomes original public meaning, what standards of the constitution believe. now we are in this weird, weird text and history moment where we are trying to decide, that is why they keep polling out dusty dictionaries. we are going to find , look around until we find a dictionary definition we like. it is not even a stable test. but, i think to your main question, the problem we are having with originalism is it is a little bit like the back

to the future car where it depends on where you send yourself back in history, jonathan. this week alone when the supreme court thankfully upheld the consumer financial protection bureau, we had a judge juan merchan decision by justice thomas saying it is funded constitutionally, we had a concurrence by elena kagan saying this is what recent history would the moment and we had a dissent by justices samuel alito and neil gorsuch. it depends on when you spin the history real we are to get back to and in addition to rejecting everything that has happened since the framing of the constitution, it also means you pick your own historical moment and that is the outcome that you get. that is not how we do constitutional law. it is deeply destabilizing. >> we are we took in more than two dozen decisions from the supreme court this term, including president trump's immunity case. how do you expect originalism to play into the outcome of that decision?

>> it is a great question and it kind of connects up with what repetitive jamie raskin was just saying, which is this is not just a scandal for samuel alito, this is a federalist society scandal, this is a scandal about a conservative supermajority that is overturning things that are the will of the people. what i think we are going to see is a bunch of cases where originalism is used to set the clock back. we've got two major gun cases still to be decided, two major abortion case is still to be decided, and a case that i think is worth thinking about for a second that sets aside the removing of a gun from a domestic abuser, a man adjudicated for abusing his partner because there was no such thing as domestic violence at the time of the founding. this is a horrible, horrible prospect for the end of the term. >> dahlia lithwick, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show.

up next, another dramatic week ahead in the courtroom for donald trump and his former fixer, michael cohen, who returns to the stand on monday after a contentious cross- examination. the takeaways, plus what we can expect as the trial nears its conclusion. all of that after the break. br. after advil: let's dive in! but...what about your back? it's fineeeeeeee! [splash] before advil: advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. (ella) fashion moves fast. acetaminophen blocks setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it.

(jen) now we're even smarter and ready for what's next. (vo) achieve enterprise intelligence. it's your vision, it's your verizon. a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. ♪ limu emu... ♪ and doug. (bell ringing) limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪

the first criminal trial of the twins impeached, four times indicted disgraced ex-president is heading into its final days. former trump fixer michael cohen will return to the stand on monday to testify to his room and the alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels. perhaps then the prosecution will seek to get michael cohen to clarify an apparent discrepancy that emerged thursday during his cross- examination by trump defense attorney todd blanche. you know, the one where he dramatically accused michael cohen of lying during his testimony earlier in the week about an october 2016 phone call , which the prosecution characterized as a conversation between michael cohen and trump regarding the hush money

payments. according to records, there is a possibility the conversation was actually between michael cohen and trump bodyguard keith schiller about a series of crank calls to michael cohen from a 14-year-old. the possibility of more dramatic moments might be coming to an end. judge juan merchan has set closing remarks to begin as early as tuesday with jury deliberations to follow. joining me now, harry lipman, former deputy assistant attorney general, los angeles times legal affairs columnist and host of the talking for's podcast and glenn kirschner, follow at just security, both were in the courtroom this week. thank you for being here. harry, despite thursday's contentious cross-examination, is michael cohen still a credible witness? >> i think so, jonathan. among other things, he was really kind of calm and perturbed, even at this one moment, where he was flummoxed a little, and what he eventually said is perhaps i spoke, both to schiller, we

knew he had called schiller park to talk to trump. they showed he must've also been talking to schiller and he thinks maybe it was both. i think it rattled him a bit but he was pretty calm even then and he has remained that way throughout. something to keep in mind is to redirect here could be really effective, compare stormy daniels when the da came back in and 90 minutes really short of everything. that is their job now, michael cohen just needs to follow their lead. >> adam, i was going to ask you about this. i don't want to skip ahead. a slew of maga republicans descended upon the new york courthouse this week hoping to prove their allegiance to donald trump. do you think that their appearance in the courtroom will have any kind of impact on the jury? i'm wondering if their presence could be considered jury intimidation. >> it is an interesting question, jonathan. they were sitting in the courtroom just in the front roe and sometimes one roe behind

them . it is clear that jerry can't miss seeing them. but, you know, the other, they have a right to attend the trial, just like any other member of the courtroom. here is where it it gets interesting. they are there in trump's own words at one of his press conferences, as her surrogates. and, it becomes a question of whether the prosecutors find that they are making remarks as surrogates that trump himself cannot say because the gag order does say that he cannot make or direct others to make statements. now, let me be absolutely clear, i find it unlikely that it will escalate in this matter just because for that to happen, the judge made absolutely clear the prosecutors need to make the request and they need to prove it to him and they seem reluctant but they will be listening closely ever since

trump said the word surrogates. >> on that point, harry, listen to what some of trump's loyalists said on thursday. listen to this. >> this gag order is to ensure he cannot defend himself fairly. we are here to have his back, we are here to defend them. >> there are things we can say that president trump's is unjustly not allowed to say. >> i take adam's point that it would take the prosecution to go to the judge and say like hey, this violates the gag order. i'm just wondering, i'm not a lawyer, you are. do those statements, and we just showed a snippet, a bunch of them said pretty much the same thing, especially going after the judges daughter. how is that not a violation of trump's gag order, given what adam just pointed out, where trump said that these are his surrogates? >> the gag order, he's got jurisdiction over trump, not over this red tie crowd.

for the jury, by the way, trump has this huge entourage, i don't think it even registers on them but he can't reach matt gaetz directly. as adam says, we are close to the end, it is buying a lot of trouble. i think judge juan merchan is likely to just let it pass and let them make their little proclamations outside the courtroom. >> adam, you know, former trump executive allen weisselberg and former trump bodyguard keith schiller have been mentioned frequently but they are not expected to testify. quickly, two questions, one, will the jury notice the lack of testimony from them? two, do you think the jury is expected to hear from trump directly? >> excuse me. you are allergic to trump. >> i do think that they will certainly notice. these are figures who we have

heard so much about allen weisselberg and his notes. they are a central, powerful piece of evidence in the case. they have been identified twice with keith schiller, he is a central person in these conversations. someone who the defense is making a lot of hate about with this october 24th phone call. so, if the defense is going to say why didn't the prosecution call these witnesses? i expect the prosecution will say that while the prosecution has the burden, these witnesses are available to the defense as well. and, so far as i can tell, they are on no one's list. >> quickly, harry, yes or no, will donald trump take the stand in his own defense? >> no. >> okay. here the main, adam klasfeld, thank you both very much. my apologies for sneezing in your faces. thank you for coming back to the show.

next, president biden gets donald trump to agree to two presidential debates. how that could change the campaign season this year and how trump wants to make some of his own rules now. we will discuss that with our political panel after the break. tomorrow, tune in to watch battle ground georgia, the latest installment of the turning point documentary series from executive producer trevor noah. the film breaks down the complex history of voting across the south and how georgia came to lead the charge. that is tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern, right here on msnbc.

when enamel is gone, you cannot get it back. but you can repair it with pronamel repair.

it penetrates deep into the tooth to actively repair acid weakened enamel. i recommend pronamel repair. with new pronamel repair mouthwash you can enhance that repair beyond brushing. they work great together. [cars honking] i'm a guy who lost a bet. and my dignity. get out of the way! as if watching my team lose wasn't punishment enough. what are you looking at huh... it's a one speed. hahaha. hahaha. and if you have cut rate car insurance, odds are you'll be paying for that yourself. so, get allstate and be better protected from mayhem... like me. hey, i'm walking here! it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs.

donald trump lost two debates to me in 2020 and since then, he hasn't shown up for a debate. now he's acting like he wants to debate again. make my day, pal. i'll even do it twice. let's pick the dates, donald. i hear you are free on wednesdays. that was president biden earlier this week calling donald trump's bluff by agreeing to debate not once but twice. the biden and trump campaign's optic to bypass the commission of presidential debates and privately agreed to a debate hosted by cnn on june 27th and another hosted by abc news on september 10th. trump demanded that biden attend two additional debates but the president refused saying "the debate about debates is over." at an event in minnesota last night, trump also demanded that

president biden agreed to a drug test for the first debate. this is a follow-up on trump's completely baseless claims that biden used drugs for his state of the union address. do gopher, donald. olivia troy, former top aide to vice president mike pence. that is olivia and amisha kross, democratic strategist and former obama campaign advisor, thank you for coming to the saturday show. olivia, do you think trump will show up to either debate? >> i think it is a 50-50 shot. i think he will keep us guessing. i think he will tease it out until the very end and i think until he actually walks through that door, there's no telling what he will do. >> the first debate will come before either party's nominating conventions and the second debate will come before early voting begins. isn't this actually better for

voters? >> i think so. i say give them all the runway, give donald trump plenty of runway so that he can show his true colors again and remind the american people of what a trump presidency would look like because that is what you are going to get. i think it is an opportunity for joe biden to shine, to talk about his policies, to talk about what he has planned for the next four years and let trump go off about what he's going to say about rick and stolen elections and witchhunts and whatever else is going to throw at us. >> hannibal lector. >> windmills. >> what you want to add before i ask you something else ? >> i think i agree with you, i think this is actually a very good thing for voters. quite frankly, it gives them, ahead of early voting, a chance to understand what the policy platforms are but it gives trump a chance to hang himself. in addition to that, it puts what matters to the american people on front street before they've cast their votes. i think this is a great calendar and i don't know why the presidential debate commission didn't think of this

type of thing before. >> tonight, trump is addressing the nra convention. he attacked democrat, president biden and president biden's speaking skills. watch this. >> they are going to do a zoom convention, here. are blaming the riots, whatever they might want to blame but the real problem is he doesn't want to get up and speak. he doesn't want to walk, he can't walk from that stair to this podium. he can't put two sentences together. >> that is so much projection going on in what trump was saying but when preparing for a debate shouldn't he be, i mean, don't you usually downplay your own skills for a debate and not the skills of your opponent? biden will walk on that stage, standing tall and walking with purpose to the podium. he will

have totally blown up what donald trump has just said there. >> absolutely. what donald trump is doing is in addition to protecting, he is still, quite frankly, hurt over the state of the union address. he had such, him and the republicans ran such a negative ads, campaign addresses, everything related to that being a failure and then president biden came out and he was a shining star, followed up by a very awful and creepy republican response. but, here, donald trump needs to be mitigating his own disaster, that's what he needs to worry about. joe biden can walk, talk, and policy at the same time. he's in georgia right now proving that, he has circled the country, he's been in the battleground states that he was just in wisconsin last week, he's getting people fired up. there is nothing that points to this being a moment where he would fall flat. if anything, donald trump, who is not a conventional debater, who is not the one who follows rules anyway, now will be in a space where readers will cut

off your microphone, where there is no audience to get them going, he is the one who will have a much tougher time. >> i was going to ask about rfk junior but we don't have time for that. this is for both of you. i want to turn to the trump criminal trial in new york. i'm just wondering, do you think the reporting on trump's court case is having any effect on the electorate? olivia, you can go first. >> i would like to see a conviction because i think the voters are watching that and trying to make decisions on that. but, honestly, when he goes out and does his press conferences, which i call his political rallies because that's the only place he can campaign right now because he's too busy with all of the criminality he has done throughout his life and being held accountable for it. i think what i am watching is whether his surrogates and all these people in the republican party that have decided they are so clinically craven they are going to go there and sell their souls to this man even though they are sitting there embarrassing themselves because they are basically protecting someone who is going on trial for crimes that he has himself

done. i'm curious to see how that resonates with republican voters. they like that, do they like that for the republican party? i can tell you is someone who comes from a republican background, i sure don't because i think it is another day of damage to the brand. >> amecia, what is in question is >> i think there are fewer enlightened republicans like olivia that voting. for swing voters, i'm not sure this is moving them. if we here in the next couple of weeks, possibly shorter, there is an actual conviction, i think that could have some leverage but so far, the majority of americans have not been following this and it not being televised, in the courtroom, i think lost a little bit of its flavor for people. they are more interested in housing costs going up, things

in the kitchen table issues, reproductive rights, the art following the incident out of the courtroom. >> that, i asked that question because i wanted, will this have the same impact as the january 6th select committee hearings did over the course of 10 incredible hearings? you point out the key difference between that and what we are seeing now, the select committee was on television, this isn't. olivia troy, amecia cross, thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show. we will have to do this again. coming up, the klansman's son, and more on how a poster child became an antiracist activist. the author, derek black joins me in studio with their extraordinary personal story after the break. break. ( ♪♪ ) my name is jaxon, and i have spastic cerebral palsy. it's a mouthful. one of the harder things is the little things that i need help with:

getting dressed, brushing your teeth, being able to go out with your friends by yourself. those are hard because you don't want help, but you need it. children like jaxon need continued support for the rest of their lives. whoa, whoa, whoa. and you can help. please join easterseals right now, with your monthly gift. i'm almost there. the kids that you are helping, their goal is to be as independent as they can. these therapies help my son to achieve that goal. easterseals offers important disability and community services that can change a life forever. please, go online, call or scan the qr code right now with your gift of just $19 a month. it really does make a difference.

strengthening with easterseals helped me realize i can get through hard things. don't give up. keep trying. even better! please visit helpeasterseals.com, call or scan the qr code on your screen with your gift of $19 a month and we'll send you this t-shirt as a thank you. mother: your help and your support, the need for it is endless. jaxon: thank you, 'cause there's a lot of people with disabilities out there. people like me. please join easterseals with your monthly gift right now. ( ♪♪ ) sup? -who are you? with your monthly gift right now. i'm your inner child. get in. listen, what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child

craving love and acceptance? how about you love and accept this? p-p-p-p-powershot! when can i drive?already! the dodge hornet r/t... the totally torqued-out crossover. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley power e*trade's easy to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans can help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley

and they're all coming? and stay on top of the market. those who are still with us, yes. grandpa! what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. new memoir offers a stunning story of transformation that is relevant in our current political climate. in "the klansman's son", derek black recounts their journey to break free from the white power movement their family and placed . as a child of a grand wizard and got child of former

leader david duke, derek black grew up as the heir apparent to a white nationalist dynasty. when plaque attended new college florida, they began to question the racist beliefs they once espoused and eventually renounced white supremacy . they also began exploring their gender identity. now, as an antiracist advocate, derek black writes, "by going back through my experiences of community, legacy, and family, i hope to show the ways the sense of not only sheep but also drive change from the largest social movements to the smallest individual relationships." joining me now is derek black, author of "the klansman's son", my journey from white nationalist and antiracism. derek, great to see you. we first met because of someone else's book about you, my colleague eli saslow at ""the washington post"," talk about your book and your upbringing and indoctrination into the white power movement. >> i was really glad i was able

to take the amount of time until know to be able to write it. it's the first time in my life i think i've had enough context and distance from the upbringing that i lived my whole life to even understand what was it, how does it affect society, where did they come from? if you like my family and i were a part of a larger history that i now realize every buddy is implicated and connected with. is not something that is marginal and extreme, it is something that is really at the core of our country. >> you write in your memoir that your new college community, especially trained 29 students helped you renounced white nationalism. was there a specific turning point during their time on campus? i know there was a turning point but talk about that. >> i had grown up in the movement. take responsibility. i was 10 years old the first time i gave an interview

advocating white nationalism. a look back and say how much could a 10-year-old have known? by the time i was going to college, i believed it, i thought it was correct in all these fake science ways. i showed up at a college that was outraged by it. it was a small liberal arts and social justice college, new college of florida. spent years there dealing with ostracism and condemnation and also a small community of people specifically through a shabbat to dinner who are willing to enter my initial question, is there some misunderstanding? i don't want to be somebody who harms other people, is there some way that they don't forget me, they don't understand this and years of that led to the conclusion that there's not a misunderstanding, i need to change who i am and what i believe and what i'm doing. >> in your book, you credit your new college community for helping you grapple with your gender identity and you write that "its culture and the people i met there helped me accept that fit under the transgender umbrella." how so ?

>> it has been years of feeling comfortable and it is something that i didn't write nearly enough about in the book. it is the one thing if i could go back a few years or were starting to write it now, i would describe it more. it something that has been a part of my life in various ways throughout my life but i, along the way, growing up in a far right movement but also growing up in america, in a country that has legitimately been noninclusive of gender expansiveness must started to forget the difference between wanting something and not being able to do that and it has really only been in adulthood as i've experienced a new community that i reassessed what it could mean to live authentically and why it was a better way to live. >> we have less than 30 seconds left but i can't have you here and not ask,, your family and

your family history, their reaction to the book and to you coming out as transgender ? >> it has been disappointing and i've had to face a bunch of transfer bixler is from my family this week. and, i don't know, it has been disappointing but it also reminded me that i no longer have to live in that household, i am no longer the kid who was afraid of talking to them about stuff and i can lean into the community that i felt now. >> you became a hero of mine because of eli's book and now you are even more so because of your own book, "the klansman's son" . derek black, thank you so much for coming to the saturday show. we will be back with more after the break here on msnbc. c. this isn't charmin! no wonder i don't feel as clean. hurry up dad! you've been in there forever! i'm trying! this cheap stuff is too thin!

i told you not to get the other toilet paper. here's charmin ultra strong. ahhh! my bottom's been saved! woooo! with its diamond weave texture, charmin ultra strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. what's everybody waiting for? this? ok hon, we know you're clean. we all go, why not enjoy the go with charmin. (bell ringing) someone needs to customize and save hundreds with liberty mutual! (inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ we're still going for that nice catch. we're still going for that perfect pizza. and with higher stroke risk from afib not caused by a heart valve problem,... ...we're going for a better treatment than warfarin. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk. and has less major bleeding. over 97% of eliquis patients did not experience a stroke. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding.

don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily... ...or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor about eliquis.

shell renewable race fuel. reducing emissions by 60%. ♪♪ we're moving forward with indycar. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress. norman, bad news... i never graduated from med school. what? -but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc.

mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? that's it for me. thank you for joining us. tune in tomorrow to "the sunday show" when congressman becca ballard of vermont joins us to discuss why democrats are unlikely to save speaker johnson the next time his fellow republicans try to throw him under the bus for tomorrow, at 6:00 eastern right here on msnbc. follow us on social media. catch clips of the show on youtube, and listen to every episode as a podcast, for free. scan the qr code right there on your screen to follow and list anytime. -- listen, anytime. >> i have pictures in my head that will not