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but some legal experts say trump's defense team was not able to unravel the prosecution's claim that donald trump was aware of the hush money payments to stormy daniels. michael: is expected back on the stand for his fourth day on monday, the 19th day of trial. joining us now's investigative reporter for the "new york times", suzanne crane. and nbc eagle analyst catherine christian. catherine christian as the former assistant district attorney for the manhattan district attorneys office. welcome all. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> it is like a dramatic pause. >> get the weight of it. go ahead. >> well, can we start where we ended? and catherine, do you think that it is true that the defense has not been able to unravel the prosecution's assertion yet that donald trump was aware of the payments, and what you think about michael collins performance of a lack of a better term this week. >> let me just say, the manhattan da's office would have never brought this case, and just for lying on the

testimony of cohen if they didn't believe they had enough of what he was going to say corroborated and they had enough circumstantial evidence of guilt. that is why you heard the excerpts from donald trump's book, basically describing himself as a micromanager, knowing about the paperclips, reading the invoices from the decorators. that is why you had david pecker, the national enquirer person at the beginning, laying out the whole conspiracy , laying out that he is detail oriented and micromanaging. so, what you hear brought in by the prosecution, really that donald trump did not know about an advisor that reported directly to him, and michael cohen reported that directly to him, he did not know what they were doing and you have those 11 checks to donald trump signed. so, that is going to be the prosecution's argument. >> suzanne, one of the things that i thought was pretty interesting in this cross of michael cohen was all focus on revenge. the fact that you had the idea

that cohen was singularly focused on this. this is the thing that moved him more than anything else. what was your take regarding the effectiveness of this revenge angle to sort of create that moment of death for one juror to say, really at the end of the day this brother was just mad. >> i think we have to step back and talk a little bit about michael: before i get to that. because michael: is critical for people who are kind of following this, minute by minute. he is the person who can set the table for the criminal disguise of the documents. he is the only person, he is the through line. there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but he has testified to conversations that he had with donald trump that go right to the criminality of those documents, the big ten. what was donald trump's intent.

those conversations are critical, and the states, i found them powerful when they were playing in court. there were tapes of michael cohen goading his revenge motives, i mean, he has been made out at this guy who was so loyal to donald trump you would do everything, and now the defense has turned that and said that he is so bent on revenge that he would do anything and they played some tapes of his podcast in court for the jury and michael cohen was railing about how his family went to jail and he wants to see trump go to jail and he was calling in crazy names. it was -- i'm sure it had an effect on me, i imagine it has had an effect on the jury. and all of this week was sort of-- when i think about this week and we were sitting in

court, there was a lot of information that was coming out of that really didn't have to do with the case, it had to do with michael cohen's credibility. and prosecutors for a while were jumping around, it was frustrating to listen to. they were going through the various times that he has lied under oath, and it is important, because he is lying under oath, the implication is that he would be lying on the stand now. but it was all leading to that moment, where they tried to discredit him. i think they did an effective job, whether or not jurors are going to walkway and say, okay, now we are going to just disregard everything tackle colin said is an open question. because, as catherine said, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that backs up with michael cohen said. >> because there is the revenge, there is the question of michael cohen's credibility as a witness as it relates to previous-- but there was also this exchange about a phone call that really seems, to your

point, about you need just one juror who has a little bit of skepticism. so, todd blanche, the attorney for donald trump, he asked cohen about this call that happened in 2016. you know, the way that cohen initially recounts it is, that is a conversation that we have, specifically about what is happening in this case, and then he shows him some text messages that would suggest that they, either additionally talked about a personal security issue or that they instead talked about a personal security issue. do think that plans for the jury, especially given blanche's dramatic rendering of it, where he says to: that was a lie? >>'s initial version had been on direct examination, so the prosecution brought out that this was the time that you spoke to donald trump about stormy daniels. yes. and then it turns out, cross, well, actually there was this 14-year-old that i was concerned about, so that is why i really was contacting

schiller, and there are these text messages that were around the same time, so it called into doubt what he said on direct examination. it is about the prosecutor on redirect to retake it. if they can't-- well, there is either going to have to be he made a mistake. i always say to my witnesses, if they testify to a grand jury on the south side of the street. on the north side they say, so you made a mistake in the grand jury, correct. i mean, i don't know, whether or not this was-- this could be blamed on mr. cohen, or the prosecution for failure to really prep and say to him, wait a minute, how could you have done it, we have these text messages. so, they have to clear it up on re-examination, if they don't, we have a problem. >> can we put it up on the screen while we have it, because we have part of the transcript, because literally todd blanche is like yelling. you know? this is from the daily beast, but this part of the transcript.

he is saying that was a lie. he is raising his voice, jabbing the pen in his right hand, you did not talk to president trump on that night. you admitted. and then:, no sir, i can't, i am not certain that isn't accurate. >> probably because he is sitting there saying i don't remember those text messages, he is sort of thinking, and that is why i said, is that a failure preparation on the part of the prosecution and not finding the text messages, the same way that the defense did and say to him, well, weren't you also texting about the 14- year-old at the same time you're talking about stormy daniels? so, the prosecution has to clear that. >> so, that says to me that, again everything up to this moment seemed to really kind of lay down some good predicates for the prosecution. the defense, despite how they started off making it about, you know, themselves, about himself, they land it.

they wanted some good punches against:. in their cross- examination of him. to the point, catherine says, there has been some redirection here. we are going to clean some stuff up on aisle nine, because there was some spillage that no one seems to account for. how does that, i mean, i guess you can say maybe the jury is unfazed by it, they have sort of started to make this cake a certain way, that, yeah, you know, it's still a little soft in the middle, but it is pretty tight for the prosecution, or is this-- is this a point, where you sit back and go, yeah, there are a number of points here, in which you could this case sort of go a little bit longer, in terms of its decision by the jury? they are not going to come out, oh, he is guilty, but there are some reasonable doubt that has been created? >> well, i like your grocery

store analogy. maybe i just have to go shopping later, but i like there is a spell on aisle nine. aisle 10 and 11, four, five, and six still i think look pretty good for the prosecution, but it is a tricky thing, because michael cohen, i want to say, i know people are watching aren't necessarily paying attention to this every day. he was a good witness. i mean, he is known as being very volatile. there is a lot of concern coming into this that he may erupt. he has been talking about the case against the advice of prosecutors, while the case has been going on. i thought he was a good witness, but you have got to give credit, where credit is due to the defense that they did land this one, particularly this one punch about this call, and the defense didn't-- or sorry, the prosecution didn't apparently prepare for it. he had forgotten about the 14- year-old. you know, there's two things,

he was allegedly a 14-year-old, anti-called keith schiller about the guy that seems to be top of mind for michael cohen on this call or, you know the other possibility is that michael cohen is lying on the stand. these are conversations that happened between michael cohen and donald trump and that is why it is so important that jurors believe michael cohen on this. but there are other calls they called donald trump multiple ones that the defense hasn't questioned him on. we still have a bit of cross- examination left on monday morning, but they have been very careful, they just haven't so far waded into a lot of what michael cohen has said about the heart of the case prosecutors are banking on. >> catherine, thank you for sticking around, that shame

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trump has already been hit with $10,000 in fines and now it appears he has found a way to say his peace without ever moving his lips. senator, tommy tuberville. >> hopefully we have more and more senators and congressmen go up every day to represent him and to be able to go out and overcome this gag order. that is one of the reasons we went, to be able to speak our peace for president trump. >> suzanne and catherine christian. >> they went to speak their piece, they want to speak their piece for donald trump. so, suzanne, how-- how does that work? in the sense that they can-- they can stand outside the courtroom the things outside the courtroom that donald trump can't say that that be a problem. is there a line we don't know about in your coverage of trials

that we don't know? and catherine, maybe catherine can tell us, you know, as a prosecutor, what that line looks like as well. but i'm just curious, to me it seems that there is trouble here, i don't know, and i guess that is the advantage that the republican think they have right now is that, because they have found a way to shave the truth and that the law, the requirements of the law on top of it waiting for someone to catch them. >> i think catherine may be-- i think will be able to speak to that, but i know, they came pretty close to it and i was playing, i was thinking of that interview at new york magazine gave on msnbc this week. he was in the courtroom. he actually saw donald trump writing down things that these folks should say, because donald trump has got pretty

narrow lanes, in terms of what he can say. so, he is directing them, according to what andrew saw about what to say out there. it seems like donald trump can't say it, who is just wanting people to say it, it seems pretty crazy about me. but i think we are living in crazy. so-- >> we should play the sound. let's play the interview of andrew on chris hayes saying what he saw. >> welcome in court yesterday actually i was sitting close enough that i could actually look over trump's shoulder and see what he was reading. at one point he was actually reading the notes that these individuals were-- and going through and making notations with a pen on the paper. >> before or after? >> while testimony was going on, while michael cohen was testifying against him he was actually going and going through and annotating and editing the quotes of these people going through. >> i have the same face that alex wagner had. what? >> where's the line?

>> where's the line? >> hopefully the prosecutors were watching that, because until that interview i was saying there is really not much proof that donald trump is directing these people, speaker of the house to say these things, which i find offensive, this has nothing to do with this case. but if i'm the prosecutor, the gag order says he can't make statements or direct others to make statements against witnesses or jurors. so, i would argue we have a senator on national tv basically saying he's doing this to get around the gag order for donald trump. donald trump for me to do it. but then you have mr. reese say we observed him doing that. i would argue, to the judge, he is directing these people to do this. >> isn't it part of the conundrum though, that prosecutors have found themselves throughout this case, which is to hold him accountable as we want to see him held accountable, like any other criminal defendant, inherently means slowing things down, that they are so close at

this point. it has to be part of-- >> the judge too. it is like let's just get through summations, let's get a verdict, let's get it done. there's also that, because it is not donald trump, he did outside of court, not much of the prosecutor part name, but talked about the lead prosecutor being put there by biden, and he was clearly talking about one of the da's staff, which he is directed not to do. so, we haven't heard the prosecutors bring that up, because quite frankly they are trying to try their case. >> no! i am here on behalf of the american people. what in the world! why is donald trump literally allowed to get away with everything? oh, because maybe we don't want to bring it up or -- if this were anybody else, if this were anybody else on national television, i saw him editing the statements during court. the next day, he did say that. he said it's something big. which i already have a prompt.

so what is going on? >> stay tuned. the prosecutors come and stay christopher conroy, we might have him make an appearance. >> mr. conroy, please. >> if that's-- i have to sit back on it, because it has been the story of dance with -- within the judicial process, when it comes to donald trump to just avoid -- >> special treatment. >> just avoid dealing with him, like he would any other normal criminal defendant, and maybe okay, first time out of the gate, but there are a lot of lessons around here for the future and how this procession evolved, because if you ever want to create that distrust by the american people in the system, watch this and just go -- >> i am distrusting. >> you have catherine saying stay tuned on this specific question, what are using next

week? >> i mean, i think it is still an open question, whether the defense will call witnesses, including donald j trump. i think it is unlikely, but that is still on the table, and they could call one or two other witnesses next week. we are going to find out early next week, because we are sort of expecting a bigger picture. we will be heading into closing arguments next week. >> real quick, but on that point, has anybody said there is no else to call at this point? because donald trump is not going to testify. who are the witnesses that the defense would call? >> the deep and cagey. >> robert costello is one that comes to mind, he is a lawyer that michael cohen dealt with in 2018, and, you know, in short i think he can he has got- - he can-- there is good ability issues with michael cohen some of the discussions we had with michael cohen.

he has been sort of a minor player so far. and that is one that could come forward we are looking at whatever the defense does, the closing arguments. and this goes to the jury. there's three days, maybe two and half days this week with the court sitting and next, the following week it will be four days. we are getting very close to the end with closing and it is heading into that jury room. >> susan crag, catherine christian, thank you both so much for being with us. next, senator, rafael warnock joins us to talk about the campaign and debates once again brewing in his home state. this is the weekend. weekend. head & shoulders is launching something huge. the bare minimum. anti-dandruff shampoo made with only nine ingredients - no sulfates, silicones or dyes and packaged with 45% less plastic - giving you outstanding dandruff protection and leaving hair beautiful and moisturized.

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this would clear the way for more research in the medical benefits of the drug and has the potential to ease decades of incarceration for simple possession of marijuana. joining us now is democratic senator, rafael warnock, of the great state of georgia, oh my mind. >> senator, thank you for being with us, i want you to take a quick listen about what president biden had to say about this reclassification. no one should be in jail for using or possessing marijuana. >> i am committed to writing those wrongs. you have my word on it. >> senator, your thoughts? >> listen, as a pastor, long before i entered the senate, i have been focused on america's terrible legacy, particularly over the last 40 or 50 years of his incarceration, entire black and brown communities have been hollowed out, by the enforcement of marijuana

there's been a warrant black and brown communities. this is a step in the right direction, long overdue. >> in that process, we have taken the first step of declassification, which will, as noted, ramp up greater research and broadening the information spectrum around this drug, because we still have a 1930s mindset, when it comes to this drug, at least when it comes to our criminal justice system and our legislative system. states have been leading the way. the feds are starting to catch up with that. the next area of this though, is how banking regulations. how do you see that process unfolding? obviously, further down the line nearer the-- as they say in the song than not. how do you see that process,

relative to this effort by the administration today? >> well, i'm on record. i support the efforts to make it easier to engage in cannabis research for those who are involved in this emerging industry to be able to participate. my concern and, michael, you may not remember, but i have just there and across georgia and all across our country the ways in which entire blocks and sections of cities all across our country have been hollowed out by the war on drugs. and so, my concern is that, as we move this safe for banking legislation closer to getting over the finish line that we don't leave these communities behind, it makes no sense that you literally have people locked up in our prisons and in our jails right now, for things

the last couple of american presidents have admitted to doing, black communities have seen far more devastation from the enforcement of marijuana than the drug itself. i think it is a step in the right direction, but a lot of this happening at the state level, i think is important. the president has set a tone for this to happen, but there's a lot more work to be done. >> senator, can we talk about your home state of georgia? a battleground yet again this election cycle. i want to play this for you. this is just a sneak peek of a new documentary here on msnbc tomorrow, i believe at 9:00 p.m. eastern, called battleground, georgia. take a listen. here in georgia, we take a lot of pride in the fact that we showed up, you know, our fellow brother in across the former confederate states that, you can catch a w out here, statewide. before, 2020 left us dead and

told us that it wasn't possible. so, what my message to the rest of the folks is that listen, help is coming. >> that was kendra scott, ceo of the new georgia project. i believe you are key to not being left for dead in georgia if you have been on the ballot in the last couple of cycles. >> oh, five times, five times less than three years, but who's counting? who's counting? >> not us, sir, not us. >> at some point, senator, you are actually going to win that race. >> i me, senator warnock, georgia is on the ballot. you have the president coming there, he's made a number of trips already, the vice president has made a number of trips, president biden kicked off the first lady there in atlanta. what is the-- what is happening on the ground? because if you read the "new york times" poland we listen to some of the people in the streets, folks are saying i don't know about this outreach, i don't know about the campaign numbers in georgia. >> listen, i don't have to tell

you what i read about, i'm living it. my name was on the ballot five times in less than three years, and i can tell you from experience that the polls don't tell you nearly as much as the people do. you pay attention to polls, but if you are obsessed with the polar poster you'll be moving up and down a lot from november. i was supposed to lose, but here, i am sitting in this chair is the first black senator from the state of georgia in that same election, georgia elected its first jewish senator, and i believe that, at the end of the day, the people of georgia are going to look at the incredible historic investments that have been placed in this state to create clean energy jobs. there is a plant coming up in savannah, georgia, create about 9000 jobs, moved to dalton georgia, known as the carpet

capitol of the world, is now producing more solar panels than anywhere else in the western hamas. great things are happening in the state of georgia, and as the president makes his way, here is a president, who is partnership with those of us in congress has invested 16 billion, with a b, $16 billion and historically about black colleges and universities and there's a whole lot more work to be done than the biden administration is ready to do it. >> i want to talk with that speech on the other side of the break but i want to slip in some is real quick, which is that we have nbc news exclusively reporting this morning that vice president harris is going to speak at sei you's convention, the first black president, that is this coming tuesday in philadelphia. your sensor of the role that labor has been playing this coming election. >> martin luther king jr. said all labor has and all work matters. people talk about the dignity of work.

you can't talk about the dignity of work without affirming the dignity of workers. here's my experience, as someone who grew up watching my dad. he wasn't of the labor union, he was an entrepreneur, people don't mind working hard. most people don't. they just want to participate in the prosperity that they are creating for others. they want a livable wage. they want access to healthcare and basic benefits, the ability to retire and they want to make sure that children are okay. so labor plays an important role in that conversation. and it is really democracy in the work place and there has not been a more prolabor president than joe biden. >> you see senator warnock spoken like also the past of ebenezer baptist. >> he is not doing the shoulders that's for sure. >>, now, that is the play now. >> senator warnock. >> we-- go ahead.

>> i was just going to say, stick around, we are not letting you go just yet. again, folks, battleground georgia, it is a battleground state, you can catch that tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. on msnbc. kendra cotton was the person in the documentary. we will keep you, senator, we want to discuss the president's commencement address tomorrow. i know some of them have to say about that. and there's also little drama we want to talk about. you are watching the weekend. i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. sup? -who are you? i'm your inner and wechild. get in.tter. listen, what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance? how about you love and accept this? p-p-p-p-powershot!

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for the president to go to morehouse. and i have this conversation with this graduating class. what is your impression of the president moment here. and b, why the reaction from some? there seems to be a little bit of buzz and concern about what the response will be from these young black men to this president. and it is sort of-- for some people, leveling up the narrative that there is a disconnect, between this president and young black men, specifically. how do you see all of this playing out tomorrow? >> welcome i can tell you that, as proud of memorial college i could not be more thrilled to welcome president biden to our campus. morehouse is a special place. i know i am biased, but it really is. and, for black men in this country there has-- there is no

other place like this. it is a place that builds men of consequence. dr. king who is also in morehouse wrote an essay the purpose of education and he talked about the importance of intelligence and character. and we needed folks who not only engage with him, but also with the heart and so, yeah, there is a hearty conversation going on right now about the president. at the end of the day, morehouse is used to being engaged in this kind of conversation. i think it will happen with dignity and president and we will hear more from the morehouse community. >> senator, you also have the president meeting with the voters, this, from nbc. the president signs of enthusiasm, the president reaches out to black voters in your state, that is also my understanding, the president

and his office have released photos of the president, meeting with the presidents of the divine. i don't know if we have that image. there's the conversation that we have about communities, and then there's the conversation that we have within our own communities talking about what the selection is going to look like and what we think is happening with voters. when you have conversations, within your own community about the run up to november, what is it you are hearing? >> look. the good thing is that we have a good story to tell. i would be worried if we didn't have receipts, as we say in the black community. but here's a president who has invested $16 billion and historically black colleges and universities did i pushed him on his campaign promise around student debt cancellation at a retreat at the great howard university. by the way, his vice president is an hpc you graduate. and the president has divested $160 billion in student debt

relief that has helped some 4 million americans, black wealth is up 60%, since before the pandemic. we are at a 30 year high in starting of black businesses. black unemployment is at a historic low. i think as we get closer to november, people will be paying more attention and the contrast, between these two candidates could not be more stark. and let me say this, because he said morehouse tomorrow. i went black men to remember that it was donald trump who, when we saw five black and hispanic men in the 1980s accused of a rape, a vicious rape, that it was donald trump taking out a vicious add calling for the death penalty

of these teenagers. and in the years since, they have been exonerated. they are innocent. has donald trump apologized for calling for the execution of these young black men for calling on and engaging in old tropes of dangerousness? that often weapon eyes against black men? the contrast couldn't be more stark. here, we have a president, who understands the promise of these young men that he will be standing in front of tomorrow, and he has put the people's money where his mouth is, and i am proud that we will get to hear from him, even as he hears from the morehouse community. >> i think he is going to have to make that message very clear to these young black men and to remind them that the voice they hear, you know, that is trying to lure them away with some, you know, sneakers and some menthol cigarettes, is the same voice that would otherwise have them executed for a crime they didn't commit. >> well, y'all know what i

think. i do not think a substantial amount of black men are going to vote for donald trump, but the biden campaign needs to be -- needs to work to earn the votes, and if republicans want black men to vote for them, they need to show them something. and i think lachman-- black voters, young people across the board, they are watching. senator, rafael warnock of the great state of georgia, pastor, thank you very much. >>, and by to see me. >> you know, i'm going to come see you. >> to see you, thank you for joining us. >> that is all of you. tomorrow, you can hear more about georgia presents battleground georgia. it is the latest installment of the turning points documentary series, from executive producer, trevor noah. i like this on. keep going, nigel. he breaks down the complex history of blowing across the south and how the state of georgia came to lead the charge of this pivotal moment. you can watch battleground,

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talking about delaware state, because delaware state, obviously. jody allen, dr. allen, the president of delaware state of a long time of the presidents, actually counseled him, waiting on this speech, but this isn't the first hpc you he has been at. i mean, since he has been president, last year he spoke at howard university for the commencement, but usually the team comes in, has a conversation with the president about, you know, what he wants to say, and then there is a draft, there's people that way in on the draft, and then the president get the draft and then there is more thought than somebody make sure mike d sees it in the white house. but who knows? everyone has seen it. a lot of people closest to the issue will weigh in on his speech like this. so, if he was giving a speech to ironworkers right? like labor, folks were weighing heavily on that. and then, it is just about, you know, you will probably do a run through, a practice of the delivery. but i have had the opportunity to meet with the president a number of times such as this.

he is most comfortable when he is out there with the people, again, he will tell you, he was raised on hpc you. he did not attend the university. but i think he will be comfortable-- >> you will need to be comfortable, because i think the speech has a little bit more weight to it than i think folks may realize and really appreciate. i think, for him it can be an important scene setter for the rest of his campaign, in how he communicates more broadly to african-americans. he is speaking to the generation that is going to emerge into leadership almost immediately. i am most bedding you out of this class there will be candidates on the ballot in two years. right? not if not sooner. but the reality for him in this moment is to make a very clear what his administration will mean for these young men in 2025, 26 and 27. and why it is important for them

to, as we do in every vote-- as voters, take the risk with their leadership. and i think it is not just -- i think he has a chance to sort of bring that kind of presumption that, you know, because you are black you are a democrat right? and you want to vote that way and behave that way. this generation is saying something very different and they are being more critical in their approach to politics. and i think, for the president, to your very point, who has that sort of, you know, oh shucks, we are going to have this moment, i think he can make a lot of that moment and really set a different kind of conversation going forward, because it is-- right now at is a little disjointed, which i think is reflective in some of the polling that we see, and so i may be putting more on the morehouse speech that-- >> i think so. >> but i think-- >> is a commencement speech at

the end of the day, and when you go and give a commencement and i know the president thinks about it this way. in my experience the vice president thinks about it this way. you are there to speak to the graduates. you have given commencement speeches, i have had the opportunity for a commencement speech. >> i speak to them about what they mean-- >> to the moment. >> to moment. >> and to the future. >> yes. >> but he is the president, and john f. kennedy have another presidents and stood in front of commencement classes and made a rallying call that is beyond just the graduating students, that's all i'm saying. >> i agree. >> he is speaking to a broader audience, not just the supporters right in front of him, but also more broadly, because books will be listening. >> i think you will be widely criticized if he goes in there and gives what is considered to be too much more of a campaign speech. >> no i don't-- it doesn't have to be campaign. >> right. but i think it is less about him, more about-- not even about democrats or republicans, but what these graduates mean for the world, for the

opportunities they had before the mental responsibility they have, i think about governor moore of maryland, who was the speaker last year at the commencement for morehouse and h such a rousing speech about history and how our history is being attacked and the history of this-- >> that is the point. that is the point that is what the president has to do. coming up at the top of the hour, velshi, she will be joined by congresswoman, summer league on how lobbies might be influencing the democratic party. so, enjoy your coffee now. you don't want to miss their conversation in just a few minutes. minutes. will

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