welcome to a special two-hour edition of "the beat." i'm katie phang. we're nearing the end of the first criminal trial of a former u.s. president donald trump. next week the case could be in the hand of the jury. before that happens, michael cohen will be back on the witness stand monday for a third day of cross examination by trump's defense attorney todd blanche. the defense's focus so far has been to try and portray the state's key witness as a serial liar, someone who cannot be trusted and who is only out for revenge against his former boss. the word lie was used more than 60 times in court yesterday.

through what felt at times like a meandering cross examination blanche may have been able to poke a hole in cohen's credibility as a witness during questioning about one of the phone calls from october 2016 that cohen testified earlier in the week he had made with trump, allegedly telling him the payoff to stormy daniels was being handled. yesterday cohen admitted that he was having trouble recalling his phone calls on specific dates back in 2016 after being presented that the phone call might have been with trump's body guard about a completely different issue. the defense has so far failed to raise on cross examination any questions about the many documents presented as evidence about the falsification of those business records in order to hide the reimbursement to cohen of that $130,000 hush-money

payment. the prosecution are not relying solely on cohen's testimony, but have been spending the last few weeks presenting the jury with corroborating evidence to nearly everything cohen has testified about. the lawyers for both sides have told the judge they expect to be finished with cohen by monday. the prosecution indicated as of yesterday, they do not expect to call any other witnesses. that's handing over the case to the defense. for their part, the defense said they're still deciding whether or not they will call any witnesses, including donald trump. that will only leave closing arguments, a final opportunity for both sides to tell the jury how the evidence supports their theory of the case. for the defense, it may be a high bar given that during their opening statements todd blanche told the jury, quote, you're going to learn that the money paid to cohen by trump was not a payback. the $35,000 a month was not a

payback for cohen for the money that he gave to ms. daniels. he was president trump's personal attorney. but the evidence presented so far tells a completely different story. joining us is lisa rubin, harry litman and joyce vance. that is a promise that blanche made to the jury that he has not only failed to deliver on, but the prosecution brought out evidence to prove that this payment was a reimbursement to michael cohen. there's handwritten notes showing the wire transfer to stormy daniels. there's trump's signed 2017 public financial disclosure

report that says that michael cohen was reimbursed. and trump's own tweet from may of 2018. will the prosecution cover this on redirect or wait until closing to tie it all together? >> they have a very good choice here. blanche is a prosecutor by background. you are taught as a prosecutor never, never, never over promise in the opening. this is tailor made for an absolute bludgeoning of this very point. will they bring it home? it's already clear to the jury really that it's been a reimbursement. new york is a little different. in new york, the prosecution will go last and the defense first.

the evidence seemed so clear from the start that's what this was. i think it's a bad self-inflicted wound. >> joyce, biggest blow thus far to cohen's credibility was that october 24th, 2016, phone call. but that was only one of at least six other calls that month in october of 2016 that michael cohen testified during which trump gave him directors about how to deal with and to do the stormy daniels payment. none of the other calls have been brought up by the defense yet. we're not heard any questions during cross about meetings michael cohen had with donald trump where they discussed the whole scheme.

>> this is only a problem for the prosecution if they don't fix it on redirect. as you have pointed out, there are other calls. there's a call two days later on the 26th that's far more important, because that's the day that michael cohen forms the shell company that's used to transfer money to stormy daniels. that happens after a couple of calls with trump early in the morning. so on redirect the prosecution will be able to support his credibility. he takes a hit here, but it doesn't need to be a fatal one. to harry's point, i may just be a country lawyer from alabama, but one thing i know from having tried 40 or 50 cases is that something that juries hate is when a lawyer makes a promise to

them and breaks the promise. i think the broken promise from the defense's opening statement will matter a lot more in the final analysis for the jury than some sort of temporary damage to cohen that will be fixed by the redirect. >> another part of the defense is that michael cohen just made this $130,000 payment on his own accord without any guarantee of ever being paid back. but we have other witnesses that say it is definitely not something michael cohen could or would even hope to do. did the idea that michael cohen made a payment to stormy daniels out of the kindness of his heart, would you say that consistent with your knowledge

of him? hicks, that would be out of character for michael. i didn't know michael to be a selfless person. he's the kind of person who seeks credit. we have in david pecker's testimony, you told us that michael cohen told you the boss would pay you back. how did you feel about that? pecker, over the years that i worked with michael cohen, i know he didn't have any authorization to spend or disperse any funds from the trump organization. every time we went even out for lunch, i always paid. he never paid. i didn't think that he had any authorization to spend any acquire. without mr. trump's approval? pecker, without mr. trump's approval. how important is it that we have corroborating testimony from pro-trump witnesses?

>> it's huge. michael cohen represented that he was stiffed on his bonus at the end of 2016 by almost two-thirds. david pecker in his testimony testified that michael cohen shared with him not only that he had been stiffed on his bonus but his outrage that trump by late december of 2016 hadn't repaid him. he asked pecker, could you talk to the boss about this? pecker said he then had a conversation with former president trump in which trump never answered him directly but mentioned michael cohen's significant wealth outside of the trump organization, including through his taxi medallion. so they said cohen paying on his own would be out of character and beyond any authority that he had and that he complained to pecker specifically about that, that's huge in terms of corroborating cohen's testimony.

>> there's also the recording of michael cohen and trump discussing the karen acdougall payment. >> i spoke to allen about it when it comes time for the financing -- >> what financing -- >> we'll have to pay. >> no, no, no. >> todd blanche tried to make a big deal about cohen secretly recording a client. that ended up falling flat that said there's a crime fraud exemption to any kind of confidentiality. >> this is an especially difficult jury to read. they file in like soldiers. they don't chat with one another. the answer is, it doesn't

matter. whatever they think about that and about the ethics of taping whatever, trump's words responding immediately how are we paying including blanche also tried to say, well, maybe cash versus check, has to do with the method of financing. again, an extraneous detail. what we hear is trump acknowledging, knowing what's going on. the same thing when he talks to hope hicks later. he knows he is reimbursing this phony bologna scheme. that's what stands out. >> joyce, you wrote about that moment yesterday regarding that october 24th phone call we just discussed. you write, before trump defenders get too excited, they need to remember this is just one moment in a long, drawn out cross examination. will the jury remember it by monday when cohen is back on the witness stand for a fourth day,

let alone during closing argument? pundits debating whether this was a home run or a yawn, but it will be the jury that decides whether to keep them from trusting cohen's testimony. there was a lot of chicken little yesterday about people being freaked out about that moment with michael cohen. i didn't think it was that big of a deal. i don't see where the punches are being landed here. to your point, even if there was a glancing blow that was landed, is anybody going to remember it five days later? >> i know some people have been very critical of todd blanche, but i think he has one insight that may be valuable. that's that sowing chaos and making the case difficult to follow is the sort of environment where perhaps you could convince one or more

jurors there is reasonable doubt. he's been scatter shot all over the place. we'll see him make what he can of that in closing argument. it all comes down to whether there are one or more jurors looking for a reason to find reasonable doubt, because the government's case has been tried really well to this point, far better than expected. >> you know, we have two lawyers on this jury. there's different schools of thought on whether or not it makes sense that it's good for the prosecution to have two lawyers on the jury, because there are some more complex legal issues at play during deliberations. what are your thoughts? >> i do think it's good to have those lawyers on the jury when it comes to deliberations not necessarily because of the

sophistication of the legal concept. remember, this is a lot about the negotiation of what are standard corporate deal documents done for anything but a standard corporate purpose. the fact we're talking about, for example, payment of a retainer without any retainer agreement, both of those gentlemen you referred to are understood to be in private practice. the fact of representation at that kind of money without a retainer agreement, that might strike both of them as the sort of thing that is anomalous and as to the credibility of the d.a.'s case, given their particular life experiences. >> don't go anywhere. we look ahead to the closing arguments in the trump trial starting as soon as next tuesday. stay with us. starting as soon as next tuesday. stay with us makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are.

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joyce, we have talked a lot about primacy, the idea that you start strong and end strong in your case. the prosecution will end their case in chief on michael cohen. >> it's surprising. we didn't anticipate that in advance. this whole primacy and recency thing comes from psychology. we know that jurors remember best what they hear first and

what they hear last. it suggests prosecutors were confident that cohen would stand up on cross examination. of course, they'll get a final shot. harry pointed this out earlier. new york state court is a little bit different from what we're used to. in most states the prosecution goes first, followed by the defense, and then the prosecution gets a rebuttal. here in new york, though, the defense lays out their case, the prosecution lays out theirs and that's it. the prosecution goes last, because of course, they bear the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. they will have that last chance to make an impression on the jury. >> lisa, the defense in this particular case is donald trump. one question which remains open ended is whether or not donald trump will take the stand.

conventional wisdom says no. remember, this is donald trump. he has an outsized presence to influence his lawyers to take positions in court at times that are a little bit absurd. >> i think there's probably something around a 15 to 20% chance that donald trump testifies because of who he is and because of the most recent trial donald trump has been a defendant is one in which he did testify, albeit in a very circumscribed way. that's e jean carroll's second trial. because any good criminal defense attorney would say to

him, this is not a good idea. i have no doubt that todd blanche and susan nneckeles are saying that to him. i wouldn't be shocked if donald trump at his own insistence takes the stand. >> if this man takes the stand, i actually think it would be really great, but not because of the media value, because i think he would do himself in. with closing arguments, the judge will read the jurors the instructions. this is from the "new york times." prosecutors do not have to prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that mr. trump committed the crime. his explanation will be important in the outcome of this complex case. harry, how did this issue from

elevating it from a misdemeanor to a felony, how does that get teed up to the jury? putting aside closing arguments, how does the jury get this and take this to deliberation? >> it is tricky. i don't disagree with lisa's point about the upside, but if you're thinking about trump's conviction, this is a downside. lawyers can take very seriously what might otherwise leave regular jurors befuddled. did he do it with the intent of covering up the other crime? it does get slippery. there's an interesting strategic choice for trump. they can request a lesser included offense, which would essentially be conceding guilt on the misdemeanor charges but would not the felony.

one of the best pieces of advice i ever got was write your summation or closing argument first and take it from there. in a big case like this, they have really been pointing so much evidence toward how it will be on summation. a good example, we saw those paralegals on the stand who got stuff in and nobody knew what was going on in closing arguments that will be part of a powerpoint presentation that will really march through things. it's going to be really tying everything up in the summation. that's what much of the evidence has been presented for in the first place. >> lisa wrote something that was really great too about the summaries entered into evidence by certain witnesses.

don't sleep on the custodians of records. they serve a very important purpose. but for them getting certain things into evidence, you wouldn't be hearing them or seeing them or looking at them if you're a member of the jury. how do we deal with the fact that we've got these upcoming juror unavailability, holidays, et cetera? sometimes it doesn't make sense. talk a little bit about how just the housekeeping issue of

scheduling comes so important when it comes to charging the jury and deliberations? >> it is a big deal here. judges will tell you that their preference is to let the lawyers deliver their summations to immediately instruct the jury on the law and then to send them off to deliberate and make sure they have a block of time to deliberate. something i hated as a prosecutor is three-day holidays in the middle of jury deliberations. they got the case, they might deliberate for a day and then they'd be off for three days. now judge merchan would have to deal with the situation because we have the issues that could make this very difficult to get

that block of time he needs to get the deliberations off to a good start. >> next week, there's no court on friday, saturday, sunday and the holiday is monday, so the jurors would be out for four days in between maybe closing as well as deliberations. i also wanted to come back to you about a lot of stuff that happens before jury selection. that's stuff you've been covering extensively. when it comes to a potential defense expert that the defense wants to come and testify that may be the only evidence from the defense next week, monday, if donald trump doesn't testify. walk me through who is this person and why is there some vote of contention in terms of the scope of what his testimony could be? >> the person is bradley smith, a former commissioner with the

federal election commission. they want to bring him in to inform jurors about the customs and practices of the fec, the federal election commission, and how they interpret certain words and phrases in campaign finance law. their objective is to convince jurors that even if there was a falsification of business records here, it couldn't possibly be a felony because there is no underlying crime here. specifically there was no conspiracy. that standard, you don't usually have an expert come in to interpret law. that's what a judge is supposed to do. indeed, judge merchan has so far ruled this expert's testimony

will be very circumscribed. he doesn't need an alternative explanation of this law. >> joyce, the elevation to a felony from the misdemeanors for the prosecution could be campaign finance, could be tax, could be some other thing. doesn't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to have donald trump found guilty of the felonies. the fact that the defense is wanting to put on a campaign finance expert -- >> well, the judge has already told the prosecution they can go to the jury on three theories involving campaign finance. here's the explanation for how this works. it's a lot like the crime of burglary. if i go onto your property, the crime is simple trespass. if i go onto your property with the intent to commit another

crime, no matter what it is, then it's burglary under most state code. this is analogous. if i create fraudulent business records it's a misdemeanor. if i do that with the intent to commit another crime, it becomes a felony. there won't be trial on campaign finance law. it's just the accelerant that turns the misdemeanor into a felony. >> that's all we needed is to have you all here to explain it all. thank you for being here. coming up, despite trump saying he's willing to testify and it probably won't happen, every time he's testified he's made things worse for himself. s made things woe rsfor himself.

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the million dollar question, will donald trump testify in his new york criminal trial? he has repeatedly claimed that he would. take a listen. >> are you going to testify in your trial in new york? >> yeah, i would testify, absolutely. it's a scam. it's a scam. >> i'm not allowed to testify. i'm under a gag order, i guess. [indiscernible] order, i guess [indiscernible

>> fact check, the gag order does not prevent donald trump from testifying. now, it is trump's decision alone whether to take the stand. the last time he took the stand in his own defense, it did not go well. he went off the rails in his new york civil fraud case, so much so that the judge had to call a recess so the defense could coach trump on proper courtroom behavior. in the e jean carroll defamation case, he appeared to confuse his wife with e. jean carroll. >> that's marla. that's my wife. >> which one? >> here. oh, i see. >> that's e. jean carroll. >> putting trump on the stand comes with extreme risk for the

defense. trump likes to talk a big game about this case, but we'll see if he actually chooses to do it when it counts the most. david k. johnson is with us. good to have you here. you know a lot about donald trump. let's start with the oddsmakers in vegas. they're saying there's a 96% chance that trump is not going to testify. would you take that bet? >> i think the odds should be more like 99.9 to 1. certainly his lawyers will counsel him you do not want to take the witness stand. but donald's ego and belief that he is all powerful, he might want to do it. if he does, we can guarantee a

conviction. >> he's now saying, well, it depends if it merits it or whatever, which is typical trump to be loud about something, but when the time comes to deliver the truth, he doesn't do it. why is it the case, though, that it's the boy who cries wolf, why aren't people realizing this guy was never going to take the stand really? >> i think a lot of people do realize this is donald's game. the hard core trump followers, as he likes to call them the poorly educated who he says he loves -- he doesn't -- they'll buy whatever he wants to sell. if he doesn't take the witness stand, he might say, there was no point in doing it, it's unfair, or there is no case, so why should i take the witness stand? he'll come up with an explanation that you and i may

find ridiculous. he'll come up with one and sell it to his followers. >> isn't there an upside of him testifying politically, taking the stand. he's standing outside that courtroom every day anyway using it as a bully pulpit to spew lies. couldn't he take the stand and use it for his advantage? >> you have exactly hit on the reason he might testify. having this delusional belief about himself, he thinks he can make this all go away and answer questions that will show that it's nonsense. he'll do fine when his lawyers are questioning him, but on cross examination he won't know what to do. i'm sure the prosecutors have already filled out an if then

tree, if this answer, ask this question. donald would not survive the amount of time on the stand we've seen with michael cohen without implicating himself and harming himself. this has happened in the past when he's had to testify in depositions or when he chose to testify in judge engoron's courtroom. >> he was hit with multiple gag order violations. he's having his surrogates talk for him. >> the judge inside, his daughter is making millions of dollars running against donald trump, raising money for donald trump's political opponent. >> the judge's own daughter is making millions of dollars doing online fundraising for

democrats. >> the judge's daughter is is a political operative and raises money for democrats. >> this is how trump rolls. he gets other people to do his dirty work like a mob boss. just like what's going on in this case, he got michael cohen to do his dirty work, right? >> yes. cohen lied all the time he worked for donald because donald paid him to lie. then donald rewarded him by having the justice department prosecute michael cohen. what we just saw in those and other surrogates appearing outside the courthouse and denouncing our system of justice, the republican party has decided to abandon the law and order theme and become the party of lawlessness and disorder. this is a really shocking development to see among the republicans. we should all be very troubled about this, just as we should be very troubled about that upside

down flag for days that hung at the home of justice alito and other things. there are people in office who are making it very clear they don't believe in democracy. they're perfectly happy to have donald trump become our dictator. coming up, it's not just politics and legal junkies following the trump hush-money trial. polling shows america has been watching and a majority think donald trump is guilty. tching a donald trump is guilty this homestyle chicken salad wrap from subway this is how you do it. savory chicken, crisp veggies all wrapped up— these wraps are amazing. people can hear my thoughts? that's a problem. stay fresh out there with all—new wraps from subway.

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as the first criminal trial of a former president continues, donald trump has a rare day away from the defense table for his son baron's high school graduation. he actually went. while he has spent the majority of the past month in the manhattan courtroom, the current president has been out campaigning and even selling merchandise making fun of trump's trial schedule. it seems like voters have started to notice the poor optics for the presumptive nominee. 52% of americans think trump is guilty of falsifying business records to conceal a hush-money payment to stormy daniels. what perhaps is more concerning, only 22% say that he's not guilty.

joining me is a pollster and strategist. you know how i feel about polls, but this one captured my attention. this is the first polling i think we've seen on the real impact of this trial on perspective voters. >> there's no question this is a net negative for donald trump. this is the first time a former president has ever been put on trial for anything. the fact that the case looks pretty solid, whether you are a trump supporter or not, it's tough to blank out the facts that keep coming. it's something donald trump himself kind of acknowledged took place. if you're a democratic strategist or joe biden and the dnc, i think it is a major mistake to tie this trial around what ultimately needs to happen in november. the american people have seen more than enough to show that donald trump is guilty of crimes, whether he's found

guilty in this courtroom in manhattan. whether it's what he did to e. jean carroll, the fraud that he committed, the insurrection that he saw and led. no one doubts that that happened. he and his family, one of the most corrupt families in history in terms of taking foreign money. then as president, the rights he took away, single handedly taking credit for removing the roe v. wade protections that now imperil millions of women and their families. >> no matter what trump or his supporters want to say, when i've for him. there are maybe four, maybe three people there in support of him versus the throngs of people that he suggests would be there but for, which is a lie, he says they're not allowed to come or whatever.

do you think this level of disinterest on the part of his supporters is actually a direct impact or a result of what's happening at the trial in new york? >> i think it is, to the extent there are supporters. it's his base, which is republican members of congress. the republican establishment that is coming to kiss the ring in the most sycophantic, almost disgusting display. you saw mitt romney even call him out. it got to the point it couldn't be withstood. all this stuff has lessened and dampened the enthusiasm. donald trump is not the same candidate he was in 2016 that inspired those type of responses and turnouts and supporters really coming out there. he's lost a lot of his fast ball. he seems old news. he seems tired. in the context of these trials he looks a little pathetic. >> the guy is sleeping because i have seen him. one thing i'm going to beg to differ with you about is this. i don't have a problem with biden leaning into the series that you just listed, that

litany of case related criminal justice, civil justice, judicial system related losses that trump has had. in fact, biden, when he was talking about the debates, leaned in and said, donald, i heard you're free on wednesdays. let's pick the dates. that dark brandon is great. and i thought that trolling was top notch. but it does lean into the fact that donald trump has legal troubles. so why not? why not capitalize on the fact that trump cannot be campaigning right now because he's in trial, and because he has these series of legal problems? why not lean into that? >> the beauty of this is, katie, and this is really credit to the biden team. i don't think anybody has realize what they did with those terms. i don't want to give secrets away on national air. >> give the secrets please. >> what they have done is they have simulated the environment that is worst for donald trump in these debates that are coming up, which is a trial setting. no audience means that the silent jury that's in the trial is the silent jury that's going to be judging the debates in the courtroom setting, so to speak.

the one judge is the no nonsense moderators now. no third party side show candidates that are going to keep it online. the real trial is going to be in the first and second debate, which is what trump has already locked himself and agreed to, and it's the worst setting for him. that trial-like setting where all of his antics are exposed and defanged in that environment. >> so if you're donald trump and you know that those are terrible conditions for you, why agree to that? >> well, he locked himself in. remember, any time, anywhere, anyplace. >> yeah, buzz he never keeps his word. so what would stop him from not showing up? >> katie, i wouldn't bet my mortgage payment he's going to show up at any of those debates precisely because he's going to realize the trap he walked into. if he does, it's advantage biden. it's the finest moment for how they play and set the trap that trump fell into. >> michael cohen put his payment

on donald trump there. we're hearing the biden campaign wants to demonstrate the contrast between the two candidates, which makes sense because it is a stark contrast. potentially hoping that the american people see a trump moment like this. take a listen. maybe we're not going to take a listen. >> sioux falls, thank you very much. oh. you know, hezbollah is very smart. they're very smart. putin has so little respect for obama that he's starting to throw around the nuclear word. nuclear. the late great hannibal lecter is a wonderful man. he oftentimes would have a friend for dinner. congratulations, the late great hannibal lecter. >> there's just often no words for donald trump, but especially after something like that. what i want to know, do you think these debates will change voters' minds considering the environment or the circumstances

in which donald trump is going to find himself? >> how's that for a donald trump impression. look, of course. this is a man on the decline for all of his artifice and posing, he's very thin skinned and i think joe biden has been engaged in these types of debates now for over 50 years. this is what he excels at. maybe he's not an animated as in the past, but he's still the president of the united states. he does ten of these a day, these interactions. much more high pressure environments. i think when you put trump under that spotlight again without all of the bells and whilss he normally tries to latch on, these debates are a mine field for him. to your point earlier, there's every possibility that come closer to june 27th, he backs out or comes up with an excuse for why the debates he demanded are no longer acceptable. >> let's talk about the parade of sycophants. the parade of sycophants that have come through, they have

literally paid homage to him. they have come to new york from d.c. or from other places to make sure that they could show support, but more importantly in my opinion, i think they're trying to end run the gag order. if you really dug into it, you would know they're definitely trying to be real surrogates to try to end run the gag order. what's in it for them? >> this is a cult, as we have said long here, that trump has taken over the republican party wholesale. they have to kiss the ring. the thing is they're also in fear of trump. they don't want him to turn them, the maga base, go to truth social, they're going to come, kiss the ring, and a lot of them do think that if they kiss enough of you know what, can get picked, can be part of the chosen golden trio. >> well, that means they're just as delusional as donald trump. i want to thank you so much. we have much more ahead in the

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welcome back to the second hour of a special edition of "the beat." joy reid is off tonight. samuel alito, the supreme court justice who dabbled in playing partisan god when he authored the majority opinion that overturned roe v. wade is facing yet another controversy. this time for reportedly displaying an upside down american flag, a symbol of the stop the steal movement on his own front lawn in alexandria virginia, as the supreme court was considering an election case. alarmed neighbors took photos of the flag, which "the new york times" recently obtained. the timing here is key.

this flag was flown just days after the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol and three days before joe biden's inauguration. get this. alito blaming his wife, saying that she raised the flag amid a dispute with neighbors. alito telling the times, quote, i had no involvement whatsoever in the flying of the flag. it was briefly placed by mrs. alito in response to a neighbor's use of objectable and personally insulting language on yard signs. the incident raising concern over alito's impartiality as the supreme court considers two major cases relating to the january 6th attack. including whether donald trump has criminal immunity for his actions. alito, along with justice clarence thomas, whose wife ginni thomas was an active participant in the stop the steal movement, are both embroiled in what feels like an ongoing supreme court ethics crisis. both are accused of flagrant

violations of ethical rules. public trust in the supreme court is at its lowest point in decades. and the flag appears to violate ethics rules set to avoid even the appearance of bias. but both conservative jurists have made it clear that they don't plan to step aside. a top u.s. ethics watchdog in washington, also known as crew, released a statement today. saying, quote, the republican and unaffiliated colorado voters who brought the trump v. anderson case at considerable personal risk assumed that every member of the supreme court including justice alito would give their case a fair hearing free of bias. we can no longer assure that that is what has happened. to avoid the very significant appearance of bias now, justice alito must immediately recuse himself from any cases pertaining to the january 6th insurrection or the 2020 election. this revelation further raises

questions about whether justice alito will need to recuse from future cases raising similar issues about the 2024 election. joining me now is nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss and david jolly, an msnbc political analyst and former republican congressman. my thanks to both of you for getting us started. michael, i want to start with you. you have been pretty vocal about how you feel about what has happened, but i think we just lost michael. so i'm going to go to you, david, first. david, this upside down flag has come to symbolize the stop the steal movement recast as kind of maga shorthand. here's a photo of one held by a conservative activist in january 2021 as joe biden was sworn in as the 46th president of the united states. david, technically, flying the flag upside down is not desecration of the flag, but according to the united states flag code, flying a flag upside

down is a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property. is that why it's being co-opted by maga and stop the steal, to send the message that our country is in distress? >> i think it symbolizes an insurrection movement that's very real and that is greater than january 6th. and look, i mean, to hear justice alito blame his wife is kind of rich because that suggests he trusts his wife to make decisions about how they fly the flag at their home but not her own reproductive health. that's justice alito's ideology on the court. let's stick with the flag and the insurrection movement. this is a symbol and it's not unlike seeing members of congress show up in court, it's not unlike the additional actions of republicans from the speaker of the house down to the local activists right now who have suggested that it is okay to turn democracy on its head in favor of political victory for our side of the aisle. on january 6th, it resulted in

violence. but there is not much distinction, katie, between the violent rioters of january 6th who stormed the capitol and tried to prevent the united states senate from certifying the election and people like mrs. alito or justice alito, wherever the truth lies, turning the flag upside down and flying it on a pole at their home or members of gres showing up in new york. they're all challenging the institutions that protect our democracy and that suggest that together as a republic, this american experiment can actually survive. the acts of justice alito's household, whoever made that decision, and the acts of the january 6th rioters are very similar in this situation. they wear different clothes, they speak different languages but they're all insurrectionists. >> michael, i'm glad we have you back because i wanted to start by asking you for your immediate reaction. you have been very vocal on social media about this. and it's outrageous that this took place on the front lawn of the personal residence of a supreme court justice.

>> i'm still in shock. and i don't think any american should feel that the supreme court is doing what it should to protect us. the minimum expectation that we have in the supreme court is that if there is an effort to assault our democracy from a broad or domestically, the supreme court is going to be on the side of defending us. here we have on january 6th, we came close to losing our democracy. we almost, it seems, saw an assassination or a hostage taking of a speaker of the house, the vice president, imminent leaders of congress, senator romney if he had been a little slower in running away from the attackers. this was really serious. so let's create the environment in which this flag was hung upside down at one of our nine justices' house. so the flag is hung upside down. just as you said, katie, that was a symbol on january 6th of

the country is in dire emergency and has to be saved from presumably the joe biden presidency, which was 14 days hence. so what kind of a message is this justice sending to americans? by allowing this flag to be in front of his house upside down? number one, president george h.w. bush proposed a constitutional amendment in 1989 against desecrating our flag. that used to be the mainstream of the republican party. here we have got a justice of the supreme court who knew that he would have to rule on cases that would pertain to donald trump and would pertain to presidential immunity and what happened to those who committed january 6th, and what is the message he's sending inthis flag was there for days. do not tell me that this was put up by his wife without his knowledge and that he went in

and out of that house for days and said i'm sorry, i didn't notice this. or i don't think there's any negative message that's being sent by a justice of the supreme court having this outside our house. all i'm saying is, for most of american history, i would have felt protected by the supreme court. i think -- and i hate to say this, i think people have a right tonight to feel that their supreme court is not necessarily on their side. >> you know, david, putting aside the perverse humor of this idea of justice alito trying to shove his wife under the bus of blame right now, if you actually parse what he says into the times, he said i had nothing to do with it being up. it doesn't say -- i mean, literally, i think in my mind, he didn't stathere and actually bring the flag up is what he's trying to say. >> who would believe that? >> exactly, so david, to michael's point as well, there's so many unanswered questions,

number one, why is this only coming out now when it's been years since this purportedly took place? the fallout has been swift. we have senate majority whip dick durbin saying justice alito should recuse himself from cases relating to the election. but what are the chances, david, of that happening? we saw what happened with clarence thomas and ginni thomas. >> none, there's no chance because there's a movement afoot in the united states on behalf of the maga movement, whatever you want to call it, the right wing conservatives. and the concern here is, and it's hard not to be hyperbolic, and this is not. but a symbol of a flag in distress is also an affirmation or justification of violence in some places. the reason why, this is at the heart of the entire january 6th movement. the predicate is the democracy and your vote has been stolen from you. when democrats say republicans are trying to make access to the vote harder, democrats' answer

is so change laws and get out and vote. and use your voice. what donald trump did is laid a predicate, and he said your democracy and vote is being stolen, and then he issued the invitation, come to washington. then he issued the charge, go to the capitol with strength. and we saw violence. so when you see a flag upside down in that context in that environment, it is an affirmation if your democracy has been taken from you, the charge is to get it back at any cost, to storm the capitol and prevent the peaceful transfer of power. that is the participation of the alito household. i'm with michael on this. look, it seems humorous to see justice alito blame his wife, and he should be condemned for blaming his spouse on that, but there's no way he did not participate in that either, which suggests a corrupt supreme court justice, and aiding and abetting the violence we saw on january 6th. >> michael, i am speechless because this is the highest court of the land, it issues rulings that create law that we

all as americans have to abide by without choice. i mean, this binds us to the rule of law. and yet the rule of law is an issue of convenience, and it only caters to one particular party, but the egregiousness of the timing of the flying of this flag, considering what happened on january 6th and the inauguration of joe biden and the fact that we haven't known about it until now, and he has been ruling over decisions and we're waiting for a decision from the supreme court as to donald trump's claim of criminal immunity. what is the recourse for americans? what can americans look to to maybe find some sense of security that there is some justice to be had? >> demand that clarence thomas and sam alito recuse themselves from any case that pertained to donald trump, january 6th, or presidential immunity. neither of them can fairly argue that they are coming to these cases and going to listen to the

law and make a ruling. clarence thomas, as we all know, his wife was so involved in the preparations for that insurrection and coup that texts from her turn up in the january 6th committee hearings to the president -- president trump's chief of staff. i mean, how much more do you need to see that she was tied into a conspiracy? and the same thing, clarence thomas says, well, my wife and i don't discuss politics. i'm sorry, you can choose to believe what he says, you can choose not to belief it. i choose not to believe it. these are two people who by their own account have an extremely close marriage, wonderful for them. i cannot believe that given the marriage and the politics they share, that they never discuss what was going on in the lead-up to january 6th. i think every american should regard this supreme court with real caution and worry. >> well, the evidence flies in the face of both alito's

statements and thomas' statements. don't go anywhere. michael and david are staying with me to discuss the pathetic parade of republicans rallying to trump's side at his criminal trial. we'll be right back.

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it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. as donald trump's history making criminal trial has played out in new york, the courthouse has become a sort of satellite office for the gop. and the parade of trump

loyalists making the pilgrimage over the week has steadily increased. more than a dozen maga republican members of congress showed up thursday to stand behind the alleged criminal literally, and to pledge their fealty to their dear cult leader and repeat his attacks on the trial. >> we're here voluntarily supporting our friend president trump, the leader of our movement, the leader of our party. >> no man should have to go through what president trump is sitting through. >> this is not a prosecution. this is a persecution. >> it is corrupt law fare, the biden prosecutions. >> we have corrupt judges, he's not even allowed to speak of because of their corruptness. >> to be clear, lauren, he is allowed to speak. he just can't violate judge juan merchan's gag order prohibiting attacks on witnesses and the family of courtroom participants. at least at this point they're

being honest about that and why they're here. >> this gag order is to insure that he cannot defend himself fairly, so we're here to have his back, to defend him. >> there are things we can say that president trump is unjustly not allowed to say. >> and back with me are michael beschloss and david jolly. david, i'm going to start with you. look, it's clear these republicans, they're saying it out loud, they're there to circumvent trump's gag order. something matt gaetz said, he posted, he posted a photo from court. this is what he writes. standing back and standing by mr. president. trump's words to the proud boys in a 2020 debate. we know what happened because of that. david, it seems like he's using himself, matt gaetz using himself as a mouthpiece for a much more dangerous message, one we have heard before to maga followers. >> yeah, katie. i say this with a ton of seriousness. the level of idiocy in today's republican party and republican

conference is really remarkable and historic. factually, the level of idiocy is remarkable, but also the willingness to engage in outright lies or not understanding the legal process and how justice works in the united states is really remarkable. the level of ignorance. so this is part of the conversation we were having earlier about the alito conversation. all of this is advancement of an insurrection movement. it wasn't just january 6th. it is a willingness to topple the institutions that protect law and order, that insure justice in the united states, that no one is above the law regardless of whatever title or wealth they might have. this is that moment where the united states gets to see that, and here we see members of congress, and i would suggest of the dozen or so members, there is an overrepresentation of republican members from florida, katie. 20% of the republican florida delegation is there because republicans just do things differently in florida. >> don't blame katie and david. >> well, you're not including --

yeah, not us. >> here's the wild part, and it's this. this is an institution of congress that has risen to moment of war and peace, of economic crisis, of public health crisis, that has addressed some of the world's greatest problems over the last 200-plus years and here you see their members sitting in a courtroom defending somebody on trial for business fraud related to an affair he had. this is a humiliating moment nomjust for those members but unfortunately for the united states congress. >> michael, your insight to this was really important historically, because it says a lot about who's not there. we pay attention to who's there. i have been watching who is going in and out. the only family so far has been eric trump and lara trump. lara trump, she's there because she's the head of the rnc. i always say eric lost the rock, paper, scissors contest with the other kids. they shot this ad in the courthouse -- >> not the only thing he lost.

>> take a quick listen to what the ad was that they shot in the hallways at the courthouse. >> we're here in court with president trump standing with him, but we need you to stand with him too. go to donaldjtrump.com. support president trump in his efforts to win this election. these democrats are nuts and they must be defeated. gh anything you can give would make a world of difference. we're here fighting the good fight. >> let's make america great again. and he's the man to do it. >> the man. >> i'm sorry, he's on trial for grift and they're grifting while he's on trial. it's a grift inception moment for me. lara is an rnc co-chair. doesn't this hurt, michael, all kidding aside, doesn't something like that hurt, the fact his family is not there? doesn't it send a message to the jury that it really is all about the campaign and it never was about the family? >> sure, where is his wife? i would never cast aspersions against anyone's marriage and that is out of bounds, but

that's the question that the jurors will ask. and it does make a statement. and that does not help donald trump. and so to try to substitute for family members with members of congress who want to suck up to donald trump, who are scared of him, who want something of him, maybe they want to be vice president, that's not a substitute. they said they were there to help their friend donald trump. that's true a little bit, the sucking up part. but they were there for two much more dire reasons. number one, they were there to intimidate the judge and jury. these are powerful members of congress. and some governors and some other days, they are there to say to the judge and jury, you know, you better not do this because we have power and there could be consequences. david and katie, have you seen godfather part 2? >> yes. >> my guess is yes. well, think of the senate hearing where frank is going to

testify against the corleones until the moment his brother is brought in from italy in the company of michael corleone, the message being sent is, you know, you speak against the don, in this case corleone, and your brother might be killed. they are there to intimidate the judge and jury, but something even worse. and that is, we saw the disgusting spectacle of a speaker of the house this week, mike johnson, denouncing this process. denouncing the rule of law. saying that donald trump was being unfairly tried, insulting the daughter of the judge, suggesting along with his colleagues there that behind this trial is joe biden. it's not even a federal trial, it's a state trial. he knows better than that. so all i'm saying, and forgive the long answer, the responsibility of a speaker of the house, the responsibility of a president of the united states, is to defend the constitution, stand up for our

rule of law. if you say that it's false, and it's not doing the right thing, and it tries people unfairly, let's say that donald trump is elected, how can you expect someone to obey a speed limit? or a parking space or a larceny law or murder laws if you have got these key figures saying that it's all corrupt, don't pay attention? >> and david, to michael's point about the cosa nostra. i don't say that lightly. i think trump has run his business and his family in a mafia style. one of the people who also showed up at the courthouse on thursday was former justice department official jeffrey clark, one of trump's co-defendants in the georgia election interference case. he was in the overflow room, and then we also had another one of trump's georgia co-defendants today, john eastman, pleading not guilty in an arizona election interference case, oh, and don't forget boris.

boris epshteyn, who is also charged in the arizona case. he's been right by donald trump's side almost every day in court. the seems like the message is we have to circle the wagons and stick together no matter what. >> yeah, so i think there's a few things going on here. michael is exactly right. intimidation is first and foremost on the minds of trump's call for these people to show up. the other aspect, though, is they're showing up because nobody else is. donald trump expected americans to rush to his side and show up and be in the park and rally for him, and nobody is. nobody is there for donald trump except the people with a direct political benefit from him. elected officials. and then the last thing that i would be fascinated to see how this turns out and you would know more than anybody on this because you have been in the courtroom. i would be fascinated how it works with the jury. because yes, intimidation might be the intent, but you're telling me that if i'm a juror and i see matt gaetz and lauren boebert and mike johnson and

rick scott come in the room, that somehow i'm going to think more favorably about donald trump? it's comical. this is an absurd cast of circus clowns showing up to defend the president, and i think it very well might backfire. it highlights that nobody else has his back at times, not even his own family and suggests that the only people who do have his back are the most political crazies on the scene today. >> yeah, and michael, i have less than a minute, but i did want to kind of dovetail off what david just said. that is the chaos caucus that is showing up. more importantly, as we saw on the oversight committee recently, nothing is getting done in america with this house in particular, with the gop majority. instead of governor and legislating and do what they need to do, they're schleping down to new york city to pay homening and do a little jonestown stuff for donald trump's trial. michael, i always look to you to make it make sense. we talk about things being

unprecedented but i feel like this is a fever dream in a bad way and it needs to break. >> okay, well, just to calm everyone, remember that america for over two centuries has gotten through all sorts of crises and pray god we'll somehow get through this one, but america is possibly on the verge of electing a former president who violated his oath to defend the constitution and tried to steal our democracy. and these are members of congress who if he comes back to office and tries it again, they're going to be his co-conspirators. even the speaker of the house. and just to bring everyone into this, at the same time as you've got clarence thomas and sam alito who there's a lot of evident that they were at least friendly to that coup insurrection of january 6th, and may have been even more involved than that. so if you have the supreme court doing this and a possible president doing this and a possible republican congress

doing this, who is going to protect our rule of law? >> michael beschloss and david jolly, thank you both for being with me. >> thank you, katie. coming up, if republicans weren't embarrassing themselves enough at trump's new york city trial, one of their counterparts in d.c. decided to cause an unbelievable spectacle in a house committee room. that's up next.

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spending yesterday the same way they have been spending their whole week, attending the trump trial in new york, any actual work in the gop controlled house has been delayed to accommodate their auditions and trump's latest reality show. last night in washington, during a house oversight hearing, that was supposed to be held in the morning, marjorie taylor greene's attempt to take a page from her dear leader's playbook, criticizing someone's personal appearance, while it backfires spectacularly during a heated exchange with representatives jasmine crockett and alexandria ocasio-cortez. >> you know what we're here for? you know we're here -- >> i don't think you know what you're here for. >> you're the one talking about -- >> i think your fake eyelashes are messing up -- >> hold on. order. >> mr. chairman -- >> that's beneath even you. >> i would like to move to take down ms. greene's words.

that's absolutely unacceptable. how dare you attack the physical appearance of another person? >> are your feelings hurt? >> girl, baby girl. >> oh, really. >> don't even play. >> baby girl? i don't think so. >> we're going to move and take your words down. >> i'm curious, just to better understand your ruling, if someone on this committee then starts talking about somebody's bleach blond bad built butch body, that would not be engaging in personalities, correct? >> a what now? >> give me a second. okay. joining me now is alencia johnson, senior adviser for the 2020 biden campaign, and tim miller, writer at large at the bulwark. i would like to get reaction to that back and forth and just like to note the alliteration was spectacular and jamie raskin does get an oscar for his performance as well. >> yeah, i liked representative crockett's look back at jim

comer like you really want me to say bleach blond bad built body. i'll say it again. i love her. i was happy, she was supposed to be on the podcast next week. i'm happy to hang out with her a little bit. thank goodness somebody is doing this. this whole thing is ridiculous. they shouldn't even be there. it's not as if they all went up to the ridiculous show in new york to be the emotional support blanket for trump and came back to d.c. to work on business. this isn't even business. this is the fake nonsense impeachment oversight hearing. they have nothing. they have had nothing the whole time. they're wasting taxpayer dollars. they're wasting democratic people's time. and jared moskowitz has called their bluff several times and said let's just vote on this. if you're going to make us keep having these stupid hearings, and so i think that the ridiculousness of it, there's one way you can look at it on its face, oh, our congresspeople

should act better than that. i'm okay with the british style of legislature, but to me, they're legislating over nothing. they're doing nothing. it's a fake farcical republican oversight hearing because they don't have any real policy agenda that they want to pass. >> you know, i have asked you this question several times and i'm asking it again. what does it say about the state of our politics that that, what we just watched, is to tim's point, the version of the gop's way to actually work because it's getting nothing done, and all kidding aside, the americans deserve better. but i also agree with tim that it is okay for the democrats to push back, especially when marjorie taylor greene is showing her green-eyed monster. >> listen, you said it better than me about marjorie taylor greene. she speaks to the republican party and the egregious bad part of our political discourse. i actually appreciated that

congresswoman crockett, she clapped back and defended herself. i appreciate that that alexandria ocasio-cortez also jumped in. and not only defended herself because we didn't play the clip where marjorie taylor greene questioned her intelligence. she stood up for her colleague. it's also not lost on me that marjorie taylor greene is a white woman with two members of the democratic side are women of color, one is a black woman, and the saddest part about the whole debacle is when these two women of color defended themselves, people started gaslighting them and telling them to have order. yet the chairman of the committee did nothing for marjorie taylor greene for her remarks and the discourse and the chaos that she had caused. so i think america is seeing beyond just where our political climate is. it's seeing what's happening every day to women of color and back women at work and disrespected by their colleagues every day. >> so let's shift gears here a little bit. i'm going to stay with you for a

second. the biden campaign is reportedly doubling down on its outreach to black voters. with the president spending yesterday and today commemorating the 70th anniversary of brown v. board of education and this weekend, president biden is going to deliver the morehouse college commencement speech and attend an naacp dinner and -- excuse me, deliver the keynote address at that dinner. how concerned should president biden be about maintaining and retaining that very important voting bloc that helped deliver a path to his win back in 2020? >> listen, i think president biden even his primary campaign in 2019 was very clear that black voters, particularly in the south, were the beat of his ability to win. and which he did in 2020. it has never been lost on him. i think the campaign is fully aware that there are a lot of things they have done that a lot of people, a lot of black voters and i'll be clear, black voters are not a monolith, don't fully

understand or haven't heard. this $16 billion historic investment in hbcus, over $180 billion in student loan debt forgiveness for black people who have had student debt. and so they are actually going down there and having those conversations, and yet at the same time, there are very real concerns. yes, the israel/hamas war, but there are other concerns that black voters have, from voting rights, from not feeling the economic policies just yet. we all know that policies take a bit of time to get to our day-to-day lives. however, there are very real concerns and i think it's a smart move to go to georgia and have this conversation with black voters in different capacities from college students as well as to legacy members of like the naacp and so on and so forth. >> tim, is biden doing a good enough job threading this needle? i mean, the biden/harris administration has delivered in ways that are outsized for communities of color, and yet

the messaging is there. it's getting put out there, but is it actually hitting? >> i think it's hitting, if you look at the numbers, it's hitting well with highly engaged voters. this is really true across the board, but particularly true in the black community. the group that biden is struggling with is voters who are less engaged, these voters are les likely to have a college degree. they're not watching daily news as much and it's mostly men and particularly younger men. and so i do think that the biden campaign has done some but could do more to be proactive in reaching out to younger black men, younger men of color in general, with messages that will land with them, particularly related to the economy. but also a lot of times i think democrats only think about abortion as a women's issue. it's not. you know, younger men i think can be messaged to on that issue and maybe in a different manner.

that's something i think the biden campaign could do this year. that's the cohort that they're struggling with, if you look at the numbers. hopefully as they get more engaged as we get to the fall that will come around, but it's going to take effort. they can't just assume that black voters are all going to come around. >> and alencia, i spoke to fernand amandi in the last hour about the biden administration and biden specifically leaning in to the legal troubles that donald trump has and whether or not that actually is a good idea. i personally think it is. i think that it actually distinguishes in a great way president biden from former president trump, because frankly, president biden has never been indicted. i think that's an important thing. do you agree that it makes sense to leave into that, especially as we're getting down to a very short runway before november? >> listen, the thang that voters actually want to see from a candidate is a fight in them, an ability for them to defend themselves, an ability for them to cut to the chase and say exactly what it is.

so i actually do think they he should lean into the contrast between him and his opponent. i think we'll start seeing more of that as we get closer to election day. but that's who president biden actually is. we have seen him as a vice president be that, having that ability to really straight talk, no chaser. folks want to see that. i think that will actually help some people move the needle, and also listen, in a shock value culture, you have to do something to get people to pay attention. and while the republicans are having these sham press conferences that look like makeshift avengers, president biden should stand on business and actually talk about the things he's doing and the difference between him and his candidate and doing it in a way that is very clear and forceful. >> tim, that is exactly what president biden has been doing. he has been campaigning when donald trump has been in court. biden going around and sharing the good news and the successes from his administration. so do you think, though, using as one wedge between him and

donald trump, highlighting the legal problems that donald trump has especially as donald trump might get convicted, do you think that continues to make sense for biden? >> i think he could do more. i agree completely. look, i think that biden needs to work -- some of this is out of his hands. a former president is on trial. 90-something felony counts, the news is going to cover that. he should talk about his economic record, but you have to think of other ways to break through. there should be democratic surrogates up there to try to draw a contrast attention to what the republicans are saying outside the courthouse, and you have seen biden dip his toe into this. he made the joke the other day about trump being free on wednesdays. i think more is more. again, if you think in your mind's eye it's less engaged voters he has to get to, he has to figure a way to do that. that's being aggressive in the contrast. >> don't go anywhere. alencia and tim are sticking with us to discuss texas

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while you weren't looking texas governor greg abbott

pardons daniel perry. a army sergeant who was serving a 25 year sentence for fatally shooting garrett foster, a black lives matter protester in 2020. foster was openly carrying a gun in an open carry state. during the protest against police violence and racial injustice following the murder of george floyd when he was shot and killed by daniel perry on july 26th, 2020. the governor's pardon of him, a right-wing rallying cry, comes after a board that was appointed by greg abbott. they made a unanimous recommendation that perry not only be pardoned but also have his firearms rights restored. back with me are -- johnson and tim miller. tim, i want to go to you first. what's your reaction to this pardon? >> it's vile and despicable. i think it's the most deplorable thing that any politician could have done this year, inclusive of donald trump. what happened here in this

case, daniel perry was convicted by a jury of his peers. he murdered that man in cold blood. all that man was doing was exercising his first and second amendment rights. i think it says something very dark about the republican party that greg abbott thinks that this is a political winner for him. to side with the murder rather than side with the man who was exercising his first and second amendment rights to speak out about a political issue to carry a firearm in self-defense. in a sane political world, in a world where they practice what they preach, everyone from right to left would be rallying behind the victim in this case. he did nothing wrong. as i mentioned, exercising his constitutional rights. the idea that he can be killed and then the state would side with the killer because he was exercising wrong political

views, the victim, that's something that happens in china. the state would intervene on the behalf of a killer because he's on the right side of a political issue. that's not american. i think it's really sickening and i hope that the people of texas let their voices be heard on this. >> now back on the streets, the court records showing that in the weeks leading up to the murder perry sent racist messages about protesters and talked about how he might have to kill a few people who were demonstrating outside of his house. in fact, there's other stuff that he said that was so egregious i actually want to make sure that this is out on the record. this man said, too bad we can get paid for hunting muscles. i want to go to dallas to shoot leaders. and on june 1st, 2020, right before he killed that innocent man he compared the black lives matter move into a zoo of that are freaking out and flinging

their -- i know it's texas and it's abbott's place as the governor to do what he wants to do. what kind of messages being sent by greg abbott here? >> listen, this is bigger than texas. this is actually similar rhetoric and believes that donald trump has been fanning the flames of. it's why he has promised to pardon, i would call them domestic terrorists. when they caused the insurrection on our capital. what he is saying is that the republican party and conservatives in power are okay with folks shooting and asking questions later because, unfortunately, the injustice that is still within our law system is actually on the side of people with this unfortunate ideology that's allowing them to target and kill people who think differently and people who actually want to uplift

black lives in the country. so it is scary and it's dangerous. i want to make sure our viewers aren't sitting here saying, that's just texas. software having conversations and say, that's just texas or that's just florida. know that is what is happening all throughout the united states of america. and donald trump is making sure that it remains in the fabric of this country and goes all the way up to him. it's not just greg abbott. it's not just desantis. is the entire republican party leadership. >> i have about 30 seconds here. this gentleman who died, the victim, he was exercising his second amendment right which is something that the gop screams about. he was exercising his second amendment rights. >> where is the nra on this? where are the gun rights activists? where are the people scream about cancel culture? he was using political speech and carrying a gun that he had a right to own and he was murdered for in cold blood by a

racist. everyone should be defending him. the fact they aren't is really sickening. >> valencia johnson and tim miller, thank you for your comments on important matters and thank you for your insight. we will be right back.

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be sure to tune in tomorrow at noon eastern for the katie filling show. my guests included congresswoman jasmine crockett and three-time paralympian and team usa -- on the olympics and what it means to be a role model for adaptive athletes.