>> thank you for watching. catch my extended interview with republican senator mitt romney on our youtube page. go to msnbc.com/stephanie and guess what. we have a great lineup tomorrow for the nightcap. if you have a hot date, catch it again on saturday at 11:00 pm eastern right here on msnbc. on that note, i wish you all a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks and nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. see you at the end of tomorrow.

and again that matters. because the question being raised whether past the point of anger which he's allowed to feel and into something that involves a vendetta where the truth might be sacrificed. or lied about that history. he said he did ask to be president trump's personal attorney, but not a different rule of general counsel. it went on and on like this today, if you will. ke this just like it did the other day. and so it's possible or dilute the larger.defense attorneys are trying to make, but that they are trying to raise. it's possible on the other hand, and i was watching michael cohen go through it, that the cuts can slowly eat

away as the key witness to donald trump's state of mind. another way to put this is without the other money guy, allen weisselberg, who is in jail can certainly make trump look bad here in the real world. others can factor that in, the guys have been to jail twice now. without the cfo they needed the other trump aid who knew about the state of his mind.

in a moment that grew heated, pushing michael cohen on this phone call he made. they can michael cohen insists he spoke directly to trump, and that's a viable story, because donald trump can get calls to a mainline, to a secretary, to a security line, then it's handed over, and we do that all the time. we don't get the top people directly. the story is that he spoke to trump. and the call mattered, because he said he and trump connected to someone else's phone, and it was incriminating, because cohen assured trump the hush money deal was done. trump's lawyer pounded on that. that was a lie, he practically yelled, suggesting cohen maybe only spoke to the bodyguard and was now trying to make it worse and and this other detail, which becomes something that people can debate.

now, that's a big moment. it doesn't mean cohen was lying, it doesn't mean the jury buys that, but it's memorable, and it allows the defense to put this front and center, and they will probably refer back to in their closing arguments. remember he raised the question, he raised some lies, and you can take his words.michael cohen simply suggested that attack and impugning of his character was not accurate. he said, i'm not certain that is accurate, i believe i spoke to mr. trump about the stormy daniels matter. he responded this jury does not want to hear what you think happened. yes, i am doing my best court reporting here, giving you a little spice on it. mr. blanche was generally respectful but would dial it up, and there are certain tricks he would say is there any doubt, or if, he would use these basic lawyer tricks and

do the one i read to you where you say we are not asking for that, we are asking for this. it's tactical and the kind of where the lawyer was trying to get cohen cornered. that's one memorable exchange played out for the jury as the audience for this tale about who is telling the truth. cohen is not having his best week of the trial , but not the worst either. and remember the prosecutors have been ready. testimony comes on the heels of corroboration for many witnesses of the core outline of what cohen is asserting , like david pecker, like stormy daniels, but if they are any good they will try to close the circle , and what they said in their opening is they are implying if you think cohen is lying about this key stuff it couldn't just be him. you would have to have these at

the people risking so much including perjury charges to make up some sort of conspiracy, and why trump would cut the checks. trump's lawyers took a kitchen sink approach. one layer said sorry, we are jumping around a little bit, and it was more than a little bit but, they landed some blows on cohen's credibility. and i want to show you another part so you can make sense of what's happening and why people are saying the jury might have more questions about cohen at the end of the day. they asked cohen about something he did, but it does mean he lied. and a violation of bar rules, he was secretly recording his own client, breaching legal ethics. trump's attorneys said you understand it's not ethical for a lawyer to record a conversation with their own client, correct? cohen admits, that's correct. then he admitted he did

exactly that with donald trump, and then to explain the reasoning was to share with a third party. this is not alleged to be a crime, but if you do that is a lawyer, you are breaking the very privilege you take an oath to uphold, which means as you can if you tell your lawyer something you don't keep it secret, they could stop representing you and take it to the literal grave. they don't tell anyone else or tell anyone else with a live recording which breaks the privilege. he did that to a member, even a friendly member of the media. he's putting it all the way out there. now, that could again, be part of what they believe is part of the course stuff. and, it's one of the hardest things for trump's side . this is the same thing i mentioned, the recording, so there is the ethical part which cuts against cohen.

then there's what's on the tape in which cuts against donald trump, like it or not, when he seems to have a type of consciousness of guilt and wanting to pay the hush money in cash. those are trump's own words. cohen made the tape about paying cash. this was for the model story, karen mcdougal. >> i spoke to aloe allen about it. when it comes time for the financing. >> what financing. >> we'll have to go pay. >> pay in cash. >> no no no. expect that tape is bad for trump. i am not sure there is a good way to explain it away, but at trial you get to hear both sides, and i don't mean this as a diss to the trump lawyers, sometimes it creates doubt for complicated story. it's up to the jury, to decide what they think that tape means

in full holistic context of all the evidence. this was interesting today. it's the first time we have heard how they will deal with this. trump's defense lawyers, making the argument that trump didn't mean actual dollar bills, but she was distinguishing between using his own money and financing. cohen disputes that, though he says separately the word they would in the world of real state discussion discuss all transactions in cash. this is why everyone deserves their day in court if they are accused of a crime, because i'm not saying that the trump argument there is a good argument. i would weight is as unlikely to be true, based on what we know. but there, there's this reasonable doubt. does that evidence give you 100%

confidence of his consciousness of guilt. or will jurors sit there and go if people talk about taking money out, not using financer alone, maybe it was just that. other reporters note trump was playing very close attention, and that he has been closing his eyes at other times. so we go in the courtroom, we all take turns and rely on the sketch artists and the different ways we can get the information that people saw trump caring about that exchange. because it's the kind of spin, kind of wordplay, we don't know. maybe trump was interested because he liked that defense, or had a hand in it. whether or not he meant cash, let's hide something so bad it might be a crime, or cash, i

don't need to take out a loan. michael cohen said he had to take his real estate loan partly to keep it secret from his family and get the money, but trump would have had that money around. now, if you are sitting through this and going okay, what's the point? there is no point today. the defense does not have to prove anything, and they don't have to have an ultimate conclusion or have a grand narrative for the end of the day. they want to make the street believe michael cohen a little less than they believed him yesterday and the day before. and so far they are scoring some punches and doing just that the best we can tell. cohen returns to the stand on monday. we have our special panel kicking off our two ever coverage. we are back in just 90 seconds.

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how are you guys doing? what you think? >> i agree with you, there were a number of punches i think landed, in particular, the part that stood out to me was when todd blanche asked a series of questions which said if michael cohen likes to blame the bank, the prosecutors, the judge, and trump, it was a series of questions, he said yes to each one, and i thought that was effective. some of the things he has said, attacking the judge as being corrupt, calling it the most corrupt, calling the judge and the like vulgarities, and looking to blame anyone else. when you couple that with changing his story that was not

a good look for him. >> a lot of us have been down there which gives you an extra texture to it. do you see a jury going yeah, i knew this, or do you see a jury that's while it is hard to read, or finding this is worse? >> i am in the overflow room, i can't see the jury, but members of the public and members of the press, and people coming out of that break, and a number of people were focused on that testimony than obviously the testimony you talked about earlier about the phone call. >> maye, same questions. and i was watching the jury today, and the level of detail and repetitions of these issues plaguing cohen seem to be more than just, that's what it's like. that's the world of trump.

>> yeah, it would be fascinating to see the jury, and from a lot of things i have heard from today they were very engaged and paying attention. but, i think what this will come back to, and i agree they landed punches, and they should have landed some punches. we would be having a really surprising conversation if there weren't some that landed. cohen outperformed what a lot of people thought he would do. he has been very calm. so when you add to that, the jury is going to be reminded by the prosecution, which is what david pecker said about that original meeting in trump tower, and about the fact that it was not in the interest of his business interests to be paying off women and concerns about things that corroborate a lot of critical points that michael cohen has made. when you think about the fact

hope hicks reiterated there was real concern on the side of the campaign, that donald trump was concerned, when you consider the fact there has been reinforcement about it, i mean, if they believed michael cohen, but again, a lot of the points they landed didn't go to some of that testimony, or his demeanor. so what can be easy to forget when you have one witness on the stand, and a lot of hits landed is that when are they really going to remember about what they have heard over the past weeks and how the prosecution is going to land, reminding them of the facts of the case and how is the judge going to tell the jury what these instructions are about their burden, because all of this will be part of what this jury decides. >> i'm going to go back to christie. my out raises the question, maya

raises the question, i don't think you can trust this guy. i think they will remember, i don't know about this guy, but on the core thing that other people trump did and paid for and the checks show, i think it happened. >> that's where i'm at watching it. i view it and say given all the corroboration we have heard so far, and the fact any theory, you believe michael cohen went rogue, allen weisselberg went rogue, it does not quite fit with the rest of the evidence. so i believe it michael cohen is saying. that said, again, somebody else looking at this could say look, i don't think he's been honest about everything on the stand. and if i don't believe him on this am i going to take his word to convict the former

president? and i think one question is, could you put michael cohen aside? do you have a case? could you make the case without him? i think you need him. >> that's what i was saying. and that's what makes it a bigger problem for the da. >> 100%. as a prosecutor, never put a cooperating witness on the stand where i didn't feel like they were 100% credible, and i knew that they were going to say, and i felt like that was something that i could sell to a jury. >> we are all accustomed to this world of trump, and this is a circus for him. in most trials you don't have witnesses, even known mobsters, giving long out-of-court rants, going on tiktok. molly, there are college kids who have more discipline staying off tiktok than michael cohen did even during the trial.

>> one thing i would say about michael cohen, i'm not a lawyer, but i do think that he reflects a lot of donald trump's aspects, right? this is donald trump's fixer, he behaves a lot like trump. so you do see, again, a lot of this introduces the seediness of season one of "the trump show." >> i think some of them have been right here. right here. >> but, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and these salacious checks. i think there's so much in here, and you have to remember the political component. you have the speaker of the house, and you have trump having people, who are elected republicans saying things he's not allowed to say because of the gag order. >> the other thing that the

lawyer tried to show the jury is that cohen is dodgy. he would make these recordings, and people would sometimes say are you recording me? he would say no and lie to them. not perjury, not illegal, but this idea of lying comes easy to him, that he's just unreliable. and that he has his own disassembly of his own case. he's got in trouble for the public statements he made where he admitted some of this was from ego. about the fraud and alleged taxi case which became later convicted, take a look. >> first and foremost this whole thing about lying and my credibility, i've even said this to you, and to others on this station. what did i lie about? if you think that's going to stop alvin bragg or anybody

from using that in credibility it's not. >> yeah [ laughter ] so, that goes back to, again, and i thought todd blanche could have done this more effectively. he said he didn't, then on this show, in the civil fraud trial, now the story is i don't dispute the underlying facts, but they should not have prosecuted me. why not? it was five years for $4 million of not reporting income. i've prosecuted tax cases and supervised cases. it is well within the range of normal cases that would be prosecuted, but we never got there. you have to think the jury thinks that this was just it's bad enough, because you don't know how bad his conduct was. >> you are saying he has had at

least three different stories about the tax fraud. >> and he is claiming the prosecutors threatened to prosecute his wife, which again, prosecutors have denied, but he kind of put that out there, and he didn't really touch on it other than i think to say this is him just being a liar. the one thing i think is interesting about that recorded call with donald trump, it also goes to the defense's point that he goes rogue. you followed donald trump, you need his approval for everything, and here you are recording your own client and he doesn't know about it. >> really interesting. special two hour edition of our special coverage tonight. coming up, later. matt gaetz in the courtroom, maga, and bringing in codefendants from other cases, which puts them back in the spotlight. strategy from an insider. a lot of us are interested, we will get back into that as well,

on how bragg might punch back on some of the issues raised today. today.

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what is your response to them? >> that's the defense they will try to put forward. it's going to fail miserably. there was no notifications that came to the trump organization about her. she was going to go public with the information. >> michael cohen explaining himself on this very program today, explaining himself to the jury in cross-examination today. we are joined by duncan levin . welcome back. are you so biased for your former colleagues that you have to say the case is going perfectly? >> they have a really difficult witness. i'm not biased, i come neutrally, i'm a defense attorney now. >> but not so biased that you

have to say the case is going perfect. >> it's going well but not perfect. today may be the best example of it. the defense had a day off and got to look over the testimony michael cohen gave on tuesday. what they did with it was they landed some blows during it, and at the end of this trial both sides will go up and make an argument about michael cohen. >> before we get to closing arguments i want to zero in on you would say today you would give what kind of grade to what the defense was able to do? they don't yet have an alternative explanation to everything. they seem to raise four, six plus issues with cohen. >> they threw out a lot there.

they have all sorts of theories, but they are trying to see what sticks. they have not come up with alternate theory about what happened here that explains it. they are doing a good job of showing alkaline to be shifty. showing him to be a liar, and today they did a good job of showing him to be lying to this very jury, and i-- >> you think they nailed him for lying to the jury? >> i think it landed some blows. 2016, to keith schiller, trump's body man, i think that was a great way of showing cohen was lying to this jury. this was a 90-2nd phone call 90- secondphone call, and text

messages between cohen and keith schiller about a young girl who had been harassing him. keith schiller text back call me . and i think they did a good job of cross-examining michael cohen on that point and showing , you didn't talk about stormy daniels during that phone call, it was about this girl who had been harassing you. it was a very good moment for them to show that michael cohen was lying on the stand. >> when you say positive that's not a slam dunk that ends the question, but it is bad. and i'm curious if you could elaborate that for us. we are watching, had it been five minutes, 10 minutes, or a follow-up text that said glad i could connect you to the boss, had there been anything supporting cohen's version? they managed to find something where they said hey, let's call and have a talk about x, and this unrelated harassment

issue, and there is that. go ahead. >> the defense is going to say you are texting with somebody about something. they say call me. you have a 90 second phone call, it's pretty obvious what you were talking about on the phone. michael cohen was saying that was a call about stormy daniels. i don't fault cohen as much as the das office for that, because there is no that michael cohen was having a call with trump on that specific date. >> let's dive in deeper. we go from a normal interview to like a reddit sub thread. if a juror is convinced cohen lied to strengthen the case against trump, here's the day those ends meet, could a jury

think cohen lied about the and vote to convict? >> they could, because the core part of this case is so corroborated, and there are so many other things that it really doesn't matter what day and what phone call, what time it was he talked about stormy daniels. there are other specific information he talked about, but this specific time, on 2016. >> we are running over on time, but i would say to you at the end of this exam, it is your testimony, more likely than not that michael cohen lied to strengthen the case against trump. >> i do. >> we don't rest, because we have more tv to do. we thank you for your insights. our thanks to duncan levin.

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i am standing as truth to power, this has been like a david and goliath sort of scenario. it's very biblical if you think about it, and at the end of the day, yes i am the small guy, the david, but goliath might be on his back. >> michael cohen is a big part of trump being on trial.

there's no way to understand without all the nicks and cuts the defense has been able to achieve on cohen as a witness. in the second impeachment attacks and fraud case, welcome. good to have you, let's jump into the details. i told viewers it's important to look at both sides. and i mentioned they landed some punches. there will be a further response, there will be closing arguments, but take a look at this closing argument that cohen was arguably so upset about being rebuffed from a white house job that added to his motive for potential revenge. >> i truly [ bleep ] hope this

man ends up in prison. want to bring back the year that i lost were the damage done to my family, but revenge is a dish best served cold. and you better believe i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to me and my family. >> as defense counsel, what are they trying to achieve there, and what do you say to the counter argument that if cohen's story is true, he did pay a high price for trying to be loyal to trump. >> well, this guy is a whiner and it's always someone else's faults. it's the judge's fault, the prosecutor's fault. it is trump's fault. they don't begin and end with trump world. he lied about the medallions, to the irs, he lied to his

wife, the judge, and he made some remark in that podcast, revenge is a dish best served cold. and a quote saying the living well is the best revenge. this blanche tagged him with that phone call that is probably what's going to prevent a guilty verdict here. >> let me get to that. you said cohen has been caught lying a lot. and if that meant someone was not fit to have their day in court you could have never represented donald trump when you did,

>> i mean that is some type of political statement. i'm not here for politics. >> it's not a political statement, we are talking about lies in court, he's on trial, and you know he's in a and busted liar, since you are weighing in on cohen. >> i don't know that. if president biden called me and i had the privilege of representing him i would say the same thing. i look at my clients like with all due respect, what you're missing him a ari, this man swore an oath to tell the truth to this jury. a team of lawyers, represented trump in his second impeachment where he did not appear nor testify. where >> yeah. >> president trump was not a defendant, so the analogy fails, because it's not like president trump took the stand in the cases i represented him in, and you could argue if he told the truth or not, this man

took an oath to tell the truth- - >> i want to get to the, with the time, i'm not sure the analogy fails, but you did get your time to address it, and i, you mentioned the tape. and i want to get your views on this, the secret recordings. cohen admits no. blanche says who else did you record? cohen gave a nonexhaustive list but former cnn chief zucker, other reporters, what is going on here from a defense perspective, and what else did you want to say about the tape issue? >> on the tape issue there are two lawyers i understand on that jury. i am offended as a lawyer that a lawyer would surreptitiously record. be it joe biden or joe blow-- expect who is this joe blow guy you keep bringing up?

>> your average american citizen. >> okay. >> i know you knew. it was going to be an issue with the two lawyers, and the issue blanche bought out about this phone call that you very accurately reported on the earlier segments, that's a huge , huge day for the defense. and there's an interesting parallel here that the ultimate proof the da needs to show is that another crime was the goal of whatever happened or didn't happen, and cohen said no, it was all about the election. nothing about his wife and family. they are not mutually exclusive. >> yeah. >> now we find out in the crucial call he is calling to deliver the news. the stormy matter is taken care of with schiller, and she spends time talking about a 14- year-old kid that is cranking over prank calls. the guy never heard of call block to mark what kind of man

fights at the 14-year-old kid? that would be like if your doctor called for days about biopsy results and said, i have the biopsy test, ari. >> well, here's what's interesting. we are bringing out the facts and reserving judgment, but i will note as they say for the record defense counsel with experienced representing trump, and the da, and mr. levin are agreeing on one thing, which was an defective point for the defense that raises doubt. we don't have the resolution, but raises doubt over whether michael cohen lied in this case. if the jurors can get past it, fine, if they have doubt about the stormy daniels related phone call, if they have doubt about that that is a good one. i hope you come back. >> just quickly and-- >> i'm overtime for 20 seconds.

>> castillo went before a congressional committee and said everything cohen said about him was a lie in this case be devastating. >> you tell mr. castillo to come by on the beach. beach.

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welcome to this special coverage of president trump's criminal trial of new york versus trump in a week that could be make-or-break as key witness michael cohen took the stand, unloaded on trump, definitely heard him but then found himself on defense with trump's fate now hanging in the balance. >> the star witness takes the stand against donald j. trump. >> michael cohen now the star witness in the new york versus trump trial. cohen on the stand. >> the ex-president coming face-to-face with the man who used to do his dirty work, who now has turned into the key witness. >> telling the court, quote, everything required mr. trump's seen off. >> will cohen keep his cool when trump's lawyers begin what could be an intense cross-examination? >> i think the punches are building cumulatively. i think tuesday there were bruises and today there's blood. >> if i was a juror in this case watching that i would think this guy's making this up as he's going along.

>> is he making it up as he goes along? we've heard different people, long time journalists and i can tell you i was inside the courtroom as you saw there several times covering this trial including that key cross on thursday, and cohen did give the d.a.'s what they wanted including corroboration of what he called evidence of the realtime scheme. monday the prosecution had cohen narrating the the entire hush money scheme. the looked bad for president trump, the questions were about catch and kill. pressed cohen about the daniels payment and cohen said trump was angry to learn the whole thing resurfaced. i thought you took care of this, an angry trump said according to

cohen's testimony. i thought this was under control. just take care of it. and cohen recounted what he did was at the direction and benefit for trump. this is damning picture and trump was not only in on everything but sharing in realtime his own motives. in other words, if you now have cohen, you have the motive piece and you don't even need cohen for the tabloid and money piece because you have other witnesses and the checks. so that looks bad. it was bad for defendant trump and we reported on it. and then came the cross examine. and whatever happens in this historic trial, this is what everyone's been gearing up for because for several days you had these defense attorneys going after cohen's credibility. not just saying he changed his story, that was previewed but he continues to dissemble and lie

not only about the core of this case but other related stuff. he confirmed they raised questions about whether that has colored or even distorted his ability to tell the truth on the stand. trump's defense aggressively pushing and questioning and cajoling cohen on all kinds of things. and let's be clear and i mentioned in my reporting thus far some of it didn't completely add up, some of it didn't create a counter story, but cumulatively over the days as i told you, it did appear to poke holes in not only cohen's credibility but something else jurors may care about. they're human beings. whether he over time wept straight or continued to be an angry uneliable person who was constantly publicly insulting the man he used to look up to. >> donald cares for no one or

anything other than himself. i know what mr. trump is. he is a racist, he is a con man, and he is a cheat. and i am going to jail in part because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment from the american people before they voted a few days later. >> do you remember that moment? that's now about 4 1/2, 5 years ago. we got all the way up to this trial, the only trial trump is facing after effectively delaying the others with an assist from his own appointed on the conservative new supreme court. some people look at what you saw there and they see a whistleblower, someone who made mistakes but came clean. other people, though, and this is what the defense is pushing, might see someone who had one

story to benefit him one way and another story when he got caught, and maybe even another story as time went on. so they pushed him on the kind of resistance figure he's become with a podcast that repeatedly, meticulously documents his time with trump and his turning against trump. and t-shirts that show his one-time boss and mentor now in a prison cell. and how much he's motivated potentially by revenge. he wrote a book called "revenge." trump's lawyer also tried to at some times bait him. you can see the sketch artist there showing a lawyer who looks like clearly the most upset person in the room or the most heated in this moment saying we're not asking for your beliefs. the jury doesn't want to hear what you think happened. he also called him a liar at one point and cohen responded and rebutted that. the courthouse in lower manhattan also became something of a maga gathering place. what you see on your screen is not normal. i want you to understand that. i try to cover this stuff very

fairly with the evidence. the people assembled to attack the rule of law, to undermine the actual jury that's sitting, which is legally authorized to make this decision, those were the right-wing republicans that gathered in person to do that. including the highest ranking republican in the federal government, the speaker of the house, mike johnson, and other lawmakers. you see them there making this political pilgrimage, and then he was outflanked to his right by matt gaetz, a figure who helped topple the last speaker and has leverage over the current speaker. they're there, they lyonize trump in the same way cohen used to, and they're saying things that trump is actually been busted for saying in violation of the gag order, so he's sort of handed that off, which some experts say could be a second viles, a new violation of the gag order or the 11th or 12th, as they came out and did trump's dirty work. >> the judge inside, his daughter is making millions of

dollars running against donald trump raising money for donald trump's political opponents. >> the judge's own daughter is making millions of dollars doing online fund-raising for democrats. >> the judge's daughter is a political operative who raises money for democrats. >> what you just heard is wrong. and it's not just coming from a beleaguered defendant desperately trying to muddy the waters or from his own random paid political hacks, but from people who are leaders in government. if you have been watching our special coverage, you may have noticed we at msnbc are trying very hard to cover this very historic trial fairly. you'll see people from both sides, independent legal experts, people say things about the trial where some people might get mad, but don't shoot the messenger. there's no two sides to what you just heard there. a, it might be a gag order violation if, as one reporter said, donald trump was publicly

personally writing those lines. because it's a violation of the gag order to instruct others on behalf of the defendant to attack family members, children of the judge, as it should be. but second and more widely, i want to be clear. those officials have every right to attend the trial, to observe it. have every right to weigh in on it to some degree. but they have systematically several of them i played for you and several others who have come to town, they haven't just done that. they have undermined the rule of law in advance before this jury even hears the case. they have contributed to an environment where if they don't get the result they want, they will say, oh, we have already been attacking this court and if they do, it's entirely possible the defendant could be acquitted or have a hung jury and thus not be convicted, then they'll move right along without any apparent care for the system of government that they're in. remember, they're not just random commentators. they're members of the government which has three branches and this is one of them. it's the judicial branch that is supposed to be respected

precisely because it is the less partisan branch. it doesn't just do press releases. we haven't heard the d.a. respond to any of those politicians, let alone the judge. yet these people who know how it works are undermining it. when i say it's not normal, it's not normal and it's not done. we have had a tradition olpresidents in both parties, recently with the one on trial, but a tradition of saying, we'll wait to hear what the jury decides and we respect the ruling, the decision of the jury. just as you must respect supreme court rulings. because otherwise, the whole system crumbles and you don't have a rule of law democracy anymore. while this may look like a trump/anti-trump thing, it's a larger problem. i promise if folks show up at democrat bob menendez's trial and do the same thing, i'll tell you about it. i say that as a matter of fact. we can't do false equivalents when there's no equivalence to the underlying situation. we have to be careful at a time where people have already attacked the last peaceful transfer of power and that election which had no real question about the winner, the

current president won by three states, the supreme court didn't take any appeals. there were none strong enough to hear, let alone overturn the results, but we had an insurrection and now we have that same crowd challenging the next election because trump might lose. they're worried he might lose and they're challenging that and now challenging the judicial process of our fellow citizens to judge him as they should judge any other defendant because that's what happens when you live in a rule of law and order. so while this trial is about the verdict, it's also about so much more. we can't have false equivalence about that. so our special coverage continues right now. we put this together to make sense of this big week and we have a top reporter from "the new york times" and a veteran of the manhattan d.a.'s office itself right after this.

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i'm giving the committee today a copy of the $130,000 wire transfer from me to ms. clifford's attorney that was demanded by ms. clifford to maintain her silence about her affair with mr. trump. >> long ago bombshells have become criminal evidence. that was michael cohen explaining all this to congress. he gave lawmakers the receipts, which became a big part of this week's case. >> as exhibit 5-a to my testimony shows, i am providing a copy of a $35,000 check that president trump personally signed from his personal bank account on august 1st of 2017. when he was president of the

united states. pursuant to the cover-up which was the basis of my guilty plea to reimburse me, the word used by mr. trump's tv lawyer, for the illegal hush money i paid on his behalf. this $35,000 check was one of 11 check installments that was paid throughout the year while he was president. >> we're joined now by "the new york times" magazine legal writer, alley baslon, and veteran of the manhattan d.a.'s office. welcome to both of you. here we are. i'm curious, emily, what you think having followed all the way back to when the story first broke and all the other trials that have been delayed. they're slated to go after the election. this is the one we have, and the

week started with michael cohen giving a version of that set of events to the jury and ended with him, i would say, on defense over whether he's always truthful. >> yeah, that clip really shows how this is the saga of michael cohen and donald trump's relationship, which was this relationship that cohen wanted to hold so close and so dear. it blew up on him. you know, this hush money scheme, his own role in it, in lying about it, sent him to prison. and now he's trying to bring donald trump into that scheme with him. of course, with the prosecutors behind him. and so, this story that he's been telling that he got in big trouble initially for lying about, then says that he told the truth about to congress, now there's supposed to be real consequences for donald trump who cohen cast as the principal. then the question is does he have enough credibility for the jury to believe that version of events so he can pull trump down with him, essentially. >> yeah, that's well put.

jeremy, you have been inside that office, you tried these kind of cases can you also do defense work. i want to play a little bit of cohen's history. there's so much talk about bias in the world, and the word, the idea that you're only doing something for your political views or something else. there's also information bias. we have all who follow this absorbed what emily just referred to as this relationship saga. we don't have any reason to believe from voir dire this jury has followed this closely, and they're now instructed not to. so i was watching in the courtroom this week as they kind of got more and more detail about this very strange odyssey and to them, it's new. it's newer information. here some of where cohen started. >> i know mr. trump. i have stood by him shoulder to shoulder for the past decade. >> i think he's a wonderful man. obviously, i'm very loyal and

very dedicated to mr. trump. >> i'll do anything to protect mr. trump, the family, now vice president elect pence. as well as the campaign. >> i think he's going to be a great president. >> mr. trump has a significant number of people, i would like to keep myself in that little circle of extremely loyal people. >> not exactly a resistance whistleblower, so the prosecutors argued that version of michael is why he did lie then and now is telling the truth. and the defense counsel argues how are you going to trust this guy, his story keeps changing? >> sammy the bull wasn't a good guy on day one, but he was loyal. we know donald trump loves loyalty, and he sort of supports, not sort of, in fact provides for and calls in loyalty. at some point, when you turn your back on someone, if you

believe the narrative, that person turns around and tells the story. but you're not getting the kingpin. you're not getting the big boss, you're not getting the major bad guy unless you have dirty hands. you want a choir boy, then it goes nowhere. you need that person in that room as part of that crime or that bad act to get the main player you're seeking. in this case, it's not sammy the bull but it's michael cohen. >> sammy the bull helped get gotti. >> teflon don wasn't teflon. >> did you see sammy the bull have the same recent credibility problems? because we heard from experts, including veterans of the office just like you, that they did get some punches landed because there were real questions about whether cohen has not just changed his story since he got in trouble, but been less than truthful recently. >> there wasn't -- you have to look at this not sort of as the hay maker. it's body blows, body blows. i don't know if they landed enough.

i think the prosecution did a good job humanizing him. he's not been the same cut from the same cloth as donald trump but different who would go on these tirades. he's been respectful and calm. at times more so on day one than day two. there was a little base i don't recall, it sounds correct. today he was much more yes and no. if he didn't recall, he didn't recall. going back to what i said before, at the end of the day, you're getting the bad guy because that's who has the information. whether or not he wanted to become chief or staff and told his daughter, whether or not he asked for a pardon, he's a regular guy who wants to be vindicated and doesn't want to go to prison. none of this is a home run. >> emily, there's so many lawyers in trump's orbit who are in trouble, cohen went to jail for him. other aides went to jail pursuant to mueller. today, i should say in the thursday, i was in court, and saw jeff clark, who is a co-defendant in a wholly different case.

i don't know why you want to bring a co-defendant from your other criminal problems into this courtroom, but there we are. michael avenatti clashed with cohen, and then was convicted of other crimes in this same orbit and all the attention and television drew scrutiny to him. i was able to obtain his first jailhouse interview. i said that and repeat now that he was convicted for crimes related to lying. he has his own set of issues. but he was the person on the other side of this everyone remembers. one thing he said from the prison interview is he thinks there is evidence to convict trump. he expects trump to be convicted, but he previewed what he said would be problems with cohen, not withstanding the fact they have clashed in the past. take a listen. >> every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story. from my perspective, i surmise that the d.a. is going to use potentially michael cohen or

stormy daniels for that purpose. and i think that has the potential to be a disaster. michael cohen is -- you know, i have never been a fan of michael for various reasons. you know, he's a serial liar. he's shown himself to be incapable of telling the truth. >> emily. >> well, michael avenatti obviously has a problem with michael cohen. you can see it there. you know, one thing that i have been thinking about is the way in which cohen's previous testimony in the civil trial involving the trump organization gave him a chance to rehearse. you know, we're seeing someone here who is much calmer in terms of demeanor, is holding it together on the stand. and we'll see if that's enough to convince the jury. i mean, he has weaknesses. he has done lying in the past. whether he's now kind of atoning for that lying or making up for it by telling the part of the story that's true, i mean, that's what this tests. and obviously, if you have a record of being convicted of perjury, like automatically not

the best witness. but the prosecution really tried to lay the groundwork for the idea that this isn't a great guy. they're relying on him for a key fact, for this idea that trump knew about these checks. the fraud part of the case against him. and so, you know, we're going to have to see whether this is enough. and then also, what happens next? does the defense put on witnesses? who are they? how does this case go from here and how do we look back on cohen's testimony when we have the whole shape of the trial. >> going backwards forward. what does the defense case look like from here? i think after they hit their points with michael cohen, let's get him off the stand and at some point, the jury loses interest when you keep on saying the same thing and you lied about this, you lied about that, because the prosecution is saying he may have lied at the time but it doesn't make them a liar. >> i promised to let you weigh in on something we led the hour

with, which is this spectacle of politicians and the government undermining the rule of law, which is not normal. you said you wanted to speak as a former prosecutor on that. >> not even just as a prosecutor but just as a defense attorney, just as someone who believes in the criminal justice system which is one of the foundations of our country, to say it's wholly inappropriate, to say it's wholly offensive and reprehensible is not doing it justice. it's a complete understatement. these folks who are getting up there, i'm going to use a term that may offend people. this has nothing to do with donald trump's innocence in the courtroom. but when you talk about wanting to be loyal to get something, that's why they're there. this is a bunch of, here we go, bootliquors who are really obsessed with donald trump who

want nothing but to be his lap dog. if donald trump wins, they'll get their fiefdom. that's not what justice is about. why the governor of one of the dakotas is here in new york talking about a criminal trial in the state of new york, in new york city, is beyond me. >> and undermining the rule of law. >> 100%. you want to talk about your neighbor to the south or north shooting their dog, great, do that. but don't come to new york and undermine justice. if there's a political issue here, i get that. >> i mentioned you being a prosecutor because it brings extra heft. we have seen in the federal system, this is a local case, there are precedents where they will throw out an entire military trial because someone said anything about it. this is supposed to be the tradition is, you're going to follow what the jury says, period. that's after the fact. let alone prejudging it. >> by their theory, then, if we have a trial in alabama, automatically, a republican prosecutor, a democratic candidate, it's bad. i'll say this. most people here are maybe watching from new york, but allen, he was a comptroller, he was not held to a higher standard in the courtroom, but he was outside the courtroom because we hold elected

officials to a higher standard, to more scrutiny. you should be treated equally in the courtroom, 100%. when donald trump finds himself in the position, true or not, because he has not been proven guilty, it's himself to blame to start this off. >> again, i don't mean to sound old fashioned, school house rock, civics, whatever, but something i touched on with you and here in our discussion with emily, we all have to understand these are members of the government. it has to be a different standard. we're talking about whether you support the government you're a part of, and we sahib the insurrection some of the soft minimization or support for that. if you have the calls coming from inside,and members of the government won't uphold the judicial branch, then we're in a big problem regardless of the outcome of the case. thanks to both of you. good to see you. after that maga parade, we'll get into that with a historian, our friend douglas

brinkley. but first a special preview of the punch back. if cohen was on defense what comes next week? we've got you covered. >> i'm visiting president trump in the oval office for the first time. he says to me something to the effect of, don't worry, michael. your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. .

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you may recall when trump was indicted people said it's here, and then it turned out some of the indictments didn't turn into trials. he had four indictments but only one trial slated before the

election. then you heard this trial was actually starting. people say it's here. i can tell you, following this closely, it's here for real in the next week or two. by which i mean they are going to continue this trial, but we know they're going to finish witnesses this coming week. and it's going to go to the jury this week or the week after. so we are actually really, totally here. and all of trump's delay tactics filed. if he thought violated the gag order might slow it down, the judge might have outsmarted him on that. michael cohen back on the stand monday. the defense will finish its cross-examination. we can tell you based on how many days it has been, that should end by that morning or early afternoon. the judge told both sides be ready to give your closing arguments the following day, tuesday. that's the end, then trump's

fate officially transfers to those 12 citizens, a jury of his peers, to decide whether or not he's guilty of a felony. we're joined by a former federal prosecutor, renato mariotti, and catherine christian. welcome to you both. catherine, it really is here now. >> yes. >> what is key next week? >> well, the judge promised june 3rd it will be over before that unless some catastrophe happened. the key is will the defense put on any defense case? i doubt it. i could be proven wrong. if they don't, then we could have summations on sunday -- i'm sorry, on tuesday. >> let's talk about what that means. number one, nothing wrong with that, nothing to infer from that. >> nothing to infer. >> they had no burden. and often, it is a wise strategy to not put on a full defense. >> often there is no defense. >> right, which means you don't do it. can you remind us why that is? >> because the prosecution have the burden. this will never happen, but defense attorneys don't even have to do cross-examinations. they don't have to do opening statements.

it's the prosecution has the burden. the defendant has an absolute right to testify. he also has an absolute right not to testify. and the prosecution cannot in any way in their summation or through their questionings infer that why didn't defendant say this, why didn't the defense bring any witnesses? because that's like an immediate i want a mistrial. so it's not -- it shouldn't be held against donald trump if no witnesses, because that's what most defendants do. this apparently, michael cohen is the prosecution's last witness. what you'll hear the prosecution say is the people rest. >> and as for whether or not, you mentioned the right, the right to testify, most defendants don't. there's many reasons why trump shouldn't. i was questioning one of his former lawyers today, discussing the fact he's a known habitual liar among other reasons. the likelihood he takes the stand, i think it's more likely that beyonce forgets how to sing and dance than that donald trump testifies, but i will say for the sake of evidence, the judge asked, referred to the transcript, the court.

the court says do you have any indication whether trump, his client, will testify? blanche, trump's lawyer, says no. the judge pushes a little, no determination yet. blanche says no. can we read anything other than they're maintaining suspense. >> that's what they're doing. and the judge wants to know because he's factoring in the schedule. if the defendant is going to testify, that's two days. we're pushing it past what i promised the jury. that's just the defense, i don't want to say coy, they don't have to tell him. >> why don't you want to say coy? >> i don't want to accuse him. i don't know the strategy. >> i think he's being a little coy. i think he has a client who likes to always keep an eye on what's going on outside the courtroom. he's running for president, and this idea that trump might testify -- >> the client is saying i don't know yet. then you're like -- >> i have just seen this movie too many times. renato, this is not fast and furious the sequel or the fourth

one. this is the eighth one and donald trump doesn't testify but he tries to create the environment of bravado, of tough, of strong, and he's not afraid and all that. with that put to rest, your view of what's important in this pivotal week coming up? >> absolutely. what the defense should do is find witnesses who can get in their story but aren't named donald trump. the challenge is finding such a witness who is willing to come forward. the d.a. has made clear, if you commit perjury, you're going to be prosecuted. that's why we didn't hear from allen weisselberg. really what they need to do is come up with a short set of questions for michael cohen after the break, something that's very memorable for the jury, something that sticks in their minds and sit down and stop talking on and on. >> renato -- renato, you have done a mock trial with us before. old school msnbc beatniks may remember, you and alan dershowitz went to a new york courtroom and did a mock trial. do you have examples of

questions you would like to see cohen asked next week to deal with what we discussed, on the one hand, real doubts raised. on the other hand, a lot of receipts back him up. >> they need to focus on the pieces of his testimony that don't have receipts. that don't have corroboration. and they haven't done that. that's really the biggest failure thus far. >> what would you ask? >> well, i would ask, for example, mr. cohen, there is no email whatsoever from donald trump to you regarding the falsification of business records, is there? there's no text message, there's no -- you don't have a recording of donald trump talking to you about falsifying business records, do you? walk through all of the ways in which you can isolate pieces of his testimony that aren't corroborated. that's what the defense should be focused on but they're all over the place. that's the biggest failure of the defense thus far. >> interesting. that's a different view, catherine, because -- >> and then sit down.

>> well, catherine, i think it's fair to say that the defense has been meandering, and at times boring, and this is a story. you never want to be too boring. but we had multiple experts on, again, if you're not just wishing trump convicted as many people are for many valid reasons, i don't detract from why people think this man should face justice, but talking about what happened in the past week and bhauts going to happen next week, there's a lot of folks saying they have raised questions. i guess my question for you is, what do you think the prosecutors can do in the office you have been in to tighten this up next week with cohen? >> well, it's going to be interesting because cohen, i would always wonder what's going to come out of his mouth. i think he's a liar, they can't tighten that up. they might want to tighten up, he keeps trying to revisit that plea of guilty to the text which has nothing to do with donald trump. >> too bad, yeah. >> i pled guilty, i shouldn't have been prosecuted. it was the judge's fault who is corrupt who is now dead.

somehow try to clean it up and have him say i pled guilty because i was guilty. maybe he can't say that. i would hate to put -- usually as a prosecutor, that's what the defendant says and i laugh. if it's your own witness, that's a problem. >> in a world without objections you might say we keep hearing this is so important to you. and you have such strong feelings. and you have been building up to this. you have been podcasting about it constantly. doesn't that mean that every fiber of your being wants to do this right and honestly and not blow it? if it's so important to you, you don't want to blow it, right? without an objection, you try to reverse it that way or mention that in closing to the jury, right? >> you're talking about the prosecution? >> yeah, tightening it up. you had a bad couple days. there's an idea he's so emotional he can't be trusted. there's another idea this is so

important to him and he already went to prison once. why would he perjure himself now? >> i wouldn't say that about him because he's so -- such a liar, i would not wrap my arms around him. i would as a prosecutor go through every piece of corroboration and circumstantial evidence that proves guilty and then say, and then of course, you can see all of the things that mr. cohen said is not the nicest person and who is a convicted perjurer, but he's credible here. >> would you -- we're over on time. would you in closing say we showed you cohen to show you everything, but we don't even need him to prove this case? >> i don't know if i would go that far because if you have jurors who would say, oh, because we don't believe him, but we think you do need him, so i wouldn't go that far. i would say, he's here because he tells the story, but he's corroborated. >> renato, you almost get the impression this stuff is harder than it looks. we tip our hat to all the seasoned members of the bar, renato and catherine, thank you. coming up, club maga. how they're getting roasted and what history teaches us.

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we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a

life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. top republicans have taken time out of their official duties to come to new york and show support for defendant trump. at times, to undermine the rule of law itself. we have seen the spectacle inside the courtroom with the speaker of the house, the veepstakes, matt gaetz and others attacking this trial.

>> i think this trial is absolutely ridiculous. i think it's a sham prosecution. >> i wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. >> this is a made-up crime. >> this is a scam, a sham, a show. >> this is a crooked sham trial. >> this trial is a joke. this thing is a farce. >> this is a sham. this is not the united states of america. this is some third rate banana republic. >> we're joined by presidential historian doug brinkley. i suppose the opening question is the trial a sham or is that effort by members of the government to undermine the government's rule of law a sham? >> what a clown show of republicans coming in, defending donald trump on the hush money case. dozens of republicans are saying the same kind of words because trump wants them, you have a gag order on me, well, you can have my surrogates. they're going to defend me. look at matt gaetz, nee ofascist

proud boy rhetoric there. look at tuberville tumbling in from alabama. the collective idiocy of the republicans there to defend donald trump, it's embarrassing for them. and the republican party has many good members, smart people in it, but anybody who thought to show up and kiss trump's ring and grab a media moment i think did -- dented their reputation. >> we have a lot of what they used to call defining deviancy down these days. as a historian, can you think of other active members of government, not fringe figures, impugning and undermining trial before the jury even ruled? >> no. it's startling to me. we're dealing with the first time either a sitting or ex-president is facing criminal

charges. we were on day 18 today. michael cohen had three days. why not just get out of the way? but the maga movement is an attempt to undermine the constitution. undermine our institutions. make people think that justice doesn't work in the united states. and we no longer know it's about just a couple fringe figures. it's the dominant trend in the gop. but it's sad. and it's frightening because this shows us what a tinder box really our democracy is standing on when that many members of one of our parties would stoop to such a ridiculous level. >> yeah. and trump awaits his fate, as i have repeated. he's presumed innocent, but other people are not. there's been convictions for sedition for the storm of the capitol, the brutal violence against police, the insurrection. and as a candidate trump has mused openly and repeatedly about pardoning these people,

not saying they didn't do it, which can be a lawful use of the pardon, but saying, no, he's going to pardon them anyway. i don't know if the word would be vigilantyism or straight up autocratic license to coup, but take a listen. >> they ought to release the j-6 hostages. they've suffered enough. i will look very favorably about full pardons, and i mean full pardons with an apology. january 6th defendants are having their lives totally destroyed and being treated worse than terrorist and murderers. and if i become president if i tide to do it, i will be looking at them very, very seriously for pardons. >> regardless of the outcome of this trial, does that wider context matter, should americans

be concerned this former coup leader is openly talking about amnesty for convicted seditionists? >> absolutely, ari. who would think when you watch what happened on january 6th people like mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham denounce trump, that a cycle like this would occur when people are willing and actually willing to back somebody who's talking about giving blanket pardons to people who ran an insurrection on the u.s. capitol, beat police, threw our country helter-skelter off of its sphere. and yet trump's advertising it, and people are saying great. he's an autocrat, but he's taking the use of pardon as a weapon. basically if you elect trump he's going to arrest you if he feels like it or elect you out of jail if he feels like it. that's why he's such a danger and we have to be awake right now to see a kind of neofascism

rising across the land. it's been there for a while, but the fact this many people would go to new york on a stormy daniels 130,000 event and float in and back his action and try to disrupt our legal system in this sort of faction, it's staggering. >> 30 seconds. do you think the founders underestimated how much the pardoning power could be abused for encouraging crimes across the nation? >> exactly. and it's not just former president trump. we've seen problems with rich, bill clinton, we've seen problemswise every president in some way pardoning the wrong people. but it is in a sense an abuse of power. and donald trump saying re-elect me as president because i will abuse power, and anybody who's on the right in a fascist state of mind are my friends, so i'll let you out of jail.

>> that's well-put. i mean the founders gave a lot of thought to the abuse of power given breaking with colonial england, and conservatives traditionally worry about excessive power, federal government power. and yet here you have someone who's clearly taken control of the republican party. it's not conservative in that sense, as you said running on abuse of power. douglas brinkley, thank you, sir. up next we go behind the scenes. we told you how many of our different reporters are going into the trial. there's a lot of people going in as witnesses and observers and we'll show you that next. witned we'll show you that next

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we have seen the nation and much of the world riveted by this ongoing trial of former president trump. in new york many big, large crowds of people waited in line just to get in. we're talking about one of the most elusive tickets in this in demand city of planeten, those long lines starting early in the morning are to try to get then courtroom. and scalloping like any other event can become a thing. some are sold their seats for hundreds. and last night the comics weighed in. >> it seems like the only thing we're accomplishing is making sure trump is well-rested before the election. >> cohen laid out tons of evidence including tapes, e-mails, photos, and calender events. it's pretty impressive one of trump's lawyers might actually win a case.

>> trump ordered him to pay daniels $130,000 saying just do it. in response nike has changed their slogan to yay, sneakers. >> michael cohen, donald trump's former attorney, just testified under oath. >> today was the straight up funniest day in court. >> this is where todd blanche is kind of getting to cohen a little bit. >> michael cohen's testimony so far this week on monday and tuesday has been nothing short of a complete disaster for donald trump. >> we are living through this together, and the good news is people taking in the actual facts and discussing it as a country. we will see what the jury decides when they decide it. keep it locked right here on msnbc. dramatic moments yesterday in donald trump's hush