thank you so much for letting us into your home during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber

starts now. >> welcome to this two-hour "the beat." michael cohen is donald trump's self-described fixer. as defendant he was rolling deep today. trump not only arriving with top republican figures but also one of his own co-defendants from a different one where he's charged. jeffrey clark was in the courtroom. i saw him myself and briefly greeted him. it was in that courtroom that we continued that group coverage of the defenses, the witness, the lawyers. that was a few hours ago when i was in front of the new york criminal courthouse. i am, of course, a member of our whole wide-ranging team reporting on this historic trial for you. while the d.a. has been on offense for weeks, with damning receipts, strong witnesses we've told you about. today's continued heat on michael cohen is certainly slowing the prosecutor's momentum in this trial.

trump's lawyers conducting a winding relentless cross-examination that has the d.a.'s case wobbling. the worse news for the d.a. is that the jury has now seen michael cohen admit or confirm a bunch of his own mistakes and lies. that's just a problem. it doesn't mean they can't win the case but it does remind everyone who has been following it about why there was so much discussion about michael cohen not being the perfect witness. and the jury being told, to not watch outside coverage, to not talk to outside people. as long as they are doing that, we have no reason to think otherwise, this is pretty new and fresh to them. they see the litany of issues dogging michael cohen. the best news for the prosecutors is they previewed this entire line of attack. and they don't need a jury to love michael cohen. they just need the jury, once it takes in all the evidence, to

think that michael cohen's most recent version of events is the actual true version. and admits these two sides clashing in the home stretch of this case, the world is watching. >> michael cohen is set to return to the stand this morning for a second day of cross-examination. >> here we go. another round of donald trump about to come face to face with michael cohen. >> trump's defense has pushed michael cohen. >> building to a center endo. trying to get him to crack. >> it only got crazier from there. >> i think they did some damage to michael cohen today. >> that cross-examination really scorching by todd blanch. >> the question is will it be effective? >> trump's lawyer here has attempted through questioning and the topics that he gets to raise, it is their turn, to try to cast michael cohen. not just unreliable in a general sense. not just someone with a bad memory. but as a vindictive serial liar.

they want to get at least one juror to so thoroughly doubt michael cohen's testimony that basically, they can't in good conscience be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that trump did it. here's why that matters legally. we're not all just talking about michael cohen because we remember him or he was loud or on tv a lot. today they did discuss his dealings with everyone from "the new york times" to our own katy tur. it is part of what he did for trump for many years. it is quite specifically that they land the idea that this guy is not on the level now. that what he said in this very trial is fundamentally unreliable or that they have doubt about it. so i'm going to go through these lines of attack with you. if you're sitting here watching, going, oh, it seems like the d.a. is in some choppy waters. that's true. that's what is happening. doesn't mean they can't win the

case or that they have to like it. there are plenty of witnesses, people who once liked and supported him who feel that justice should be done. he should face his accountable day in court. he should be convicted as miss daniels said. so we're not here telling you whether to like it or not. we're giving you as we always try to do, the real facts. so one was the possible ulterior motives. the outcome will affect him personally. and he said yes. asking about how his history years is very personally wrapped up. he had failed to get out of jail early. he asked for that several times. and then as part of this idea that he has perhaps a vendetta that has distorted the truth, the accuracy that he told the jury, today like we've seen in earlier days, the lawyers really bore down on cohen's ups and downs with donald trump. during his legal problems, how he did want a pardon.

cohen had in the context of his answer that the issue came up because it was dangled to him and he wanted this nightmare to end. cohen's anger at being rebuffed from any white house job whatsoever came up. and will that matters because the question being raised is whether that has passed the point of anger, which he's allowed to feel. he is a human being. whether he has spun that story or lied about that history, and cohen said on the stand he did ask to be president trump's personal attorney, but not a different role of general counsel. it went on and on like this today. on and on and on, if you will. just like it did the other day. and so it's possible that this style, this meandering road could make jurors bored. or the doubt that they're trying

to raise. it's also possible on the other hand, i was thinking about this watching cohen go through it hour by hour, that the nicks and cuts can slowly eat away at his credibility to donald trump's state of mind. another way to put it, if the d.a. thought they could clearly prove and win this case without michael cohen, they would have brought this case without putting cohen on the stand. there were other people who were involved they didn't put on the stand. susan mcdougal. he's on the stand because without the other money guy, weisselberg who is in jail which can't be used against trump in court but certainly makes trump look bad in the real world. voters and others can file that in. he's been to jail twice now. without weisselberg, without the cfo, they needed cohen as the only other trump aide who could speak to trump's state of mind. that's why he's important. trump lawyers after things got

sometimes a little meandering or boring, he got ways to dial it back up. for example, bearing down on cohen's story, telling in this very case, in a matter that grew heated. pushing cohen on this phone call that he made. they have the records. they can see trump's bodyguard in 2016. cohen insisted he spoke directly to trump. that's a viable story because donald trump like other top people can get calls to a mainline, to a cell phone, to go a secretary, a security line, and then it is handed over. we do that all the time. you don't always get the person directly. that call mattered because he says it was on that call where he and trump connected through someone else's phone and it was incriminating because cohen personally assured trump the hush money deal was done. today trump's lawyer pounded on that. that was a lie, he practically yelled. suggesting cohen maybe only

spoke to the bodyguard and was now trying to make it worse and add this other detail which becomes something that people can debate. now, that's a big moment. it doesn't mean cohen was lying and it doesn't mean the jury buys that. but it is certainly memorable. it allows them to put it front and center. remember we told you, we raised the question. he was lying then. he admitted some lies. other lies he's denying. you can't take his word. as for the response, michael cohen simply suggested that attack, that impugning of his character was not accurate. i believe i spoke to mr. trump about the stormy daniels matter. trump's lawyer retorting, we're not asking for your belief. this jury does not want to think what you think happened. yes, i'm doing may best court reporting here, giving you a little spice, a little energy on it. mr. blanche was generally

respectful but he would dial it up at times. he has these little tricks to say, is there any doubt, they are basically lawyer tricks. he would do the one i just said as well. we're not asking for that. we're asking for this. it is tactical. 'tis kind of way he was trying to get him cornered. that's one way. so cohen is not having his best week of this trial, not the best week of his life. the testimony comes on the heels of corroboration from many other witnesses of the core of what he's asserting. like stormy daniels, like the documents. and i don't know exactly what the prosecutors will say in their closing but if they're any good, they will try to close the circle on what they said in their opening. what them is we'll show you all

the facts before you ever get to michael cohen. they're basically implying, if you think cohen is lying about this key stuff, it couldn't just be him. you would have to have all these other people including perjury charges to make up some sort of conspiracy. and then why would donald trump cut the checks? trump's lawyers took a kitchen sink approach here. at one point today the lawyer even said sorry, we're jumping around a little bit. it was more than a little bit. they landed some blows on his credibility. to see what's happening and why the jury might have more questions about cohen at the end of the day. they asked cohen about something he did. doesn't mean he's always a liar. it does mean he lied. and he did something i can tell you that's very unusual that lawyers are not supposed to do. a violation of bar rules. he was secretly recording his own client. breaching legal ethics.

trump's attorney said you understand that it's not ethical for a lawyer to record a conversation with their own client, correct? cohen admitted, that's correct. and then did he that with donald trump. to slayer the reasoning, it was to share with it a third party. if you do that as a lawyer, you are breaking the very privilege that you have taken an oath to uphold. the privilege means as you've probably heard, if you tell your lawyer something, they don't just keep it secret while they represent you. they can stop representing you and they take it to the literal grave. they certainly don't record it. he did that to a friendly member of the media, the pro trump media. talk about breaking it. he's putting it all the way out there. on that could be part of what i'm calling the nicks and cuts and whether the jury believes him about the core stuff. another thing is one of the hardest things for trump's side

to explain. we played this tape for you. this was the recording. the ethical part which cuts against cohen. like it or not, how the tape got created, he seems to sound like not only secretive but has a type of consciousness of guilt wanting to pay the hush money in cash. trump's own words. i'll play it for you again. trump made the tape about paying cash. this was for the model story karen mcdougal. >> i spoke to allen about it when it comes time to financing. >> what financing? >> well, we'll have to pay -- >> no, no. >> here's what we learned today. if you follow the news, you've heard that time. that tape is bad for trump. i'm not sure there's a good way to explain it away. at trial you get to hear both sides. i don't mean this as a dis to the trump lawyers. sometimes creative lawyering

helps add doubt to a complicated story. it is up to the jury, not to me, to you, to anyone else, up to the jury to decide what that means in full context of all the other elements. this was interesting. this is the first time we've heard how they're going to deal with it. trump's defense lawyers saying that trump didn't mean actual dollar bills. he was distinguishing between using his own money and financing. cohen disputes that. although he says yes, separately, that they would in the world of real estate discuss all cash transactions. the question is if that's a totally different context. if you think about it, this is why everyone deserves their day in court if they're accused of a crime. because i'm not saying the trump argument is a good argument. i would weight it as unlikely to be true. based on everything we know.

they are raising what i told you they're going to do. this reasonable doubt. does that tape alone or that tape with other evidence give you 100%, beyond a reasonable style doubt confidence, not technically 100, but high confidence that he was being secretive. or do some jurors say huh? if people talk with all cash real estate transactions. it doesn't mean going to the bank and taking money out but not using a loan. others know in that moment, trump was paying very close attention. that he's been closing his eyes at other times. so again we go in that courtroom. we take turns. we rely on the sketch artist and all the other moments. it's the kind of spin, the kind of word play. we don't know. maybe trump was interested

because he liked that defense. whether or not he meant cash, let's hide something so bad it maybe a campaign crime or cash, i don't need to take out a loan. a lot of people don't have $130,000 lying around. michael cohen said he has to get a loan. trump would have had the money around. you're sitting there all of this, okay, ari. they don't have to have a conclusion or a grand narrative. all they have to do is make this jury believe michael cohen a little less than they believed him yesterday or the day before. so far they are scoring some punches and doing just that. best we can tell. cohen returns to the stand on monday. we have our special panel kick off our two-hour coverage. cove.

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testimony and was back at it these last few days. we're back with our special panel for this two-hour coverage. welcome all. >> what do you think? >> i agree with you. there were a number of punches and i think they landed. i thought in particular, the part that stood out to me was when todd blanche asked a series of questions which said essentially, michael cohen likes to play the blame game. you blame your accountant. you blame your bank. you blame the federal prosecutors, you blame the federal judge and you blame donald trump. it was a series of questions. he said yes to each one. i thought that was an effective point. especially when he brought out some of the things that he has said. attacking a judge as being corrupt. attacking his prosecution as being the most corrupt in 100 years. calling the prosecutors and the judge animals.

it was very vivid language and it showed a lack of, looking to blame anybody else, not really accepting responsibility for what he did. when you couple that with changing his story about his press conduct, that was not a good look for him. >> a lot of us have been down there which gives you extra texture to it. do you see a jury that is going, oh, yeah, this is normal? or do you see a jury that is very hard to read, might be finding this is even worse than what the prosecution previewed? >> i'm in the overflow room. i can't see the jury. i mean, the overflow room which has members of the public and members of the press. people were coming out after that break. a number of people were like, i can't believe he called the judge that. the judge, a lot of people were focused on that testimony. then the testimony that you talked about earlier about the phone call. >> maya, same questions. i was watching the jury today. we can't read too much. the level of detail and

repetition of these issues plaguing cohen do seem to be more than just, oh, that's what it is like. oh, that's the world of trump. >> yeah. it would be fascinating to get to see the jury. from a lot of things i've heard today, they were very engaged and paying attention. i think what this will come back down to. and i do agree they landed punches. they should have landed some punches. we would be really having a conversation if there weren't a conversation about having landed some. and it is certainly true that making cohen outperformed what a lot of people thought he would do. he has been very calm. when you add to that the jury will be reminded by the constitution which is what david said, wasn't in the interests of his business interests to be

paying off women and concerns about things that corroborate a lot of critical points. when you think about that hope hicks reiterated there was real concern on the side of the campaign. that donald trump was concerned. when you consider that there's been reinforcement about wasn't really melania. if they believe michael cohen. again, a lot of the points they landed didn't really go to some of that testimony or his demeanor. so what can be easy to forget when you have one witness on the stand and a lot of hits landed, is that what are they going to really remember about what they've heard over the past weeks? and how well the prosecution will land its closing, reminding them of the facts. case, and how is the judge going to tell the jury about what the instruction are. all of this will be a part of what this jury decides. >> i'm going back to christy.

we'll get to you. what the jury will remember is not the details but i don't think you can trust this guy. what the defense is doing fails, i think they'll remember, i don't know about this guy, but on the core thing that other people also said trump did and trump paid for and the checks show, i think it happened. >> so that's where i'm at watching it. i view it and say, okay. given all the corroboration we've heard so far, the fact that the story makes sense and any defense theory, you would have to believe not only that michael cohen went rogue but allen weisselberg went rogue. i believe what michael cohen is saying. that said, again, somebody else looking at this could say, look, i don't think he's been honest about everything on the stand.

as of now. if i don't really believe him on this, am i going to take his word to convict the former president? and i think, one question is, could you actually just put michael cohen aside? could you make the case without him? i think you need him. i think you need those conversations with michael cohen. >> that's what makes it a bigger problem. >> i never put someone on the stand that i didn't think they were 100% credible. i knew what they were going to say on the stand and i felt like that was something that i could sell to a jury. >> that's an important point. we're accustomed to this world of trump and this is a circus of his own making. in most trials you don't have witnesses, even known mobsters giving long out of court rants.

going on tiktok. molly, there are college kids who have more discipline staying off tiktok to do their homework than michael cohen did even during the trial. >> one thing i would say about michael cohen. i'm not a lawyer. but i do think that he reflects a lot of donald trump's aspects, right? this is trump's fixer. he behaves a lot like trump. so you do see again, a lot of this introduces the seediness from season one of the trump show. remember, characters that none of us even remembered. and we do this for a living. stormy daniels -- >> and some of them have been right here. right here. >> but stormy daniels, and karen mcdougal and the salacious chats. i do think there's so much in here. and you also have to remember the political component. you had the speaker of the house yesterday there. and you have trump having people

who are republican, elected republicans saying the things he is not allowed to say because of the gag order. >> the other thing i thought the lawyer tried to show the witness is he's dodgy. it doesn't mean he is lying to the court but he did that. he would make these recordings and people would say are you recording me? he would say no which was lying to them. not perjury. not illegal. but the idea that lying comes people he claim to be working for or with. he's just unreliable. then he has his own dissembling about his own case. you brought this up earlier this week. either gotten in trouble for the republican statements. here's what he was telling us about the fraud and the alleged taxi case which then became later convicted. take a look. first and foremost, there was no fraud in the medallions. second of all, this whole thing about lying and my credibility.

i've even said this to you and to others on this station. what did i lie about? and if you think that will stop alvin bragg or anybody from using me on credibility, it's not. >> yeah. so that goes back to, again, i thought todd blanche could have done this more effectively. all the ways in which he has changed his story. he said he did it. then he said he didn't. on the stand the on the civil fraud trial and now the story is i don't dispute the underlying facts but they shouldn't have prosecuted me. why not? it was five years for $4 million of not reporting income. i prosecuted tax cases. i assume vise tax cases at sdny. it is well within the normal range of cases problem prosecuted. you have to hope the jury thinks it is bad enough. >> to your point, will the jury

remember that, that's not just my story changed once. you're saying he has had at least three different stories about just the tax fraud. >> yeah. and he's also claiming the prosecutors threatened to prosecute his wife. which again, sdny prosecutors have denied. but he kind of put that out there and they didn't really touch on it other than i think to say, this is him just being a liar. the one thing i think is interesting about that recorded call with donald trump, it also goes to the point this is a guy who goes rogue. everything we've heard is, you just followed donald trump. here you're recording your own client and he doesn't know about it. >> really interesting. i want to thank our super panel here as we barrel forward. a special two-hour edition. our coverage. coming up. we'll get to matt gates and

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perfectly? >> they have a really difficult witness. >> hold on. >> i'm not biased. i'm a defense attorney now. >> you're not so biased that you have to say it's going perfectly. >> it's going well but not perfectly. today was a great example and complain the best example of it. the defense had a day off. they got to really look over the testimony that michael cohen gave on tuesday. and what they did with it was, they landed some blows during it. and at the end of this trial, both sides will go up and make an argument about michael cohen. the prosecution will say -- >> i have to slow you down. it takes one to know one. i want to zero in on, you would say today, you would give what kind of grade to what the defense was able to do? i've walked through fact they don't have a whole cogent story. they don't have an alternative explanation. donald trump could still be convicted on the evidence. they seemed to raise not one,

not two, four, five, six issues with cohen? >> i thought it was a b+. they threw a lot out there. michael cohen, they have all sorts of theories but they're trying to see what sticks and they haven't come up with an alternate theory. they're doing a good job to show him to be shifty. they're doing a good job of showing him to be a liar. and today they did a good job of showing him to be lying to this very jury. and i think that's the first thing. >> you think they nailed him for lying to the jury. >> it there are a few areas where they did. that phone call that happened on october 24, 2016, to keith schiller, it was a good way to show that michael cohen was lying to this jury. obviously, they're going to argue it and the prosecution would say that was not a lie. this was a 90-second phone call

that michael cohen testified on direct was the moment that he spoke with donald trump about stormy daniels. and that call was preceded by some text messages between michael cohen and keith schiller about a young girl who had been harassing him. right before the call, keith schiller texted back, call me. then there is a 90-second phone call. i thought the defense did a good job of showing they cross examined michael cohen and saying you didn't really talk about stormy daniels during that phone call. that was about this girl who had been harassing you. it's not dispositive but that was a good moment to show that michael cohen was showing on the stand. >> you mean it's not a slam-dunk that ends the question but it is bad. i'm curious if you could elaborate that for us. we're all watching this but not everyone is in the courtroom. had it been five minutes or ten, or a follow-up text that said, glad i could connect you to the

boss. what you're saying as the defense which isn't in charge. they're responding, right? managed to find something where they said, up hey, let's call and have a talk about x. this unrelated harassment issue. then you had a very short call about x and that's the end of it. we're to believe you got on and off with the president as well, the candidate? >> jurors are called upon to use their common sense. the defense would say you're texting with somebody about something. they say call me. a 90-second phone call. it's pretty obvious what you were talking about on the phone. and michael cohen was saying, that was a call about stormy daniels. i don't fault cohen for that as much as the d.a.'s office form. there's no reason to have elicited in the direct testimony that michael cohen was having a call with donald trump on that specific date at that specific time. >> let's dive in a little deeper. now we're going from a normal interview.

do you think a juror, if convince that had cohen lied about this to strengthen the case against trump, to say not only did he have the intent, but here's the day those ends meet. could a jury think cohen lied about that and still in good conscience vote to convict? >> they could. the core part of this case is so corroborated and there are so many other things, and it doesn't really matter what day and what phone call, what time it was that he talked about stormy daniels. there is so much other specific information that he testified to that is corroborated. but this specific time, this call on october 24, 2016, that he had that phone call. there is no reason. >> we're running over on time. if we were in court i would say to you at the end of this exam, so it is your testimony that it is more likely than not that michael cohen lied about that to strengthen the case against trump? >> i do. >> well, we don't rest because we have more tv to do. it is always good to have you

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i am the david. but somehow or another, goliath is on his back. >> goliath may not be on his back but he is the first former president to ever be put on criminal trial. and michael cohen is a big part of that. we've been covering some of the issues that have come up in the cross-examination today. there is no way to understand this trial or where it's headed without seeing all of this and the nicks and cuts the defense has been able to achieve on cohen as a witness. we're joined now as a skilled veteran defense attorney who also represented then outgoing president trump in the second impeachment case and the fraud case. welcome. >> thanks for having me. good to be back. >> let's jump into the details. i've told viewers, what i mentioned on tuesday, they did land some punches today. there will be a further response tom. there will be closing arguments. but take a look at this argument through todd blanche. that cohen was arguably so upset about being rebuffed from the white house job that that added

to his motive for potential revenge. it was also on an episode of his podcast. >> i truly [ bleep ] hope this man ends up in prison. it won't bring back the year i lost or the damage done to my family but revenge is a dish best served cold. and you'd better believe i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to me and my family. >> as defense counsel, what are they trying to achieve there? what do you say to the counter argument that if cohen's story is true, he did pay a high price for trying to be loyal to trump and it would be okay if he's angry as long as he tells the truthful. >> this guy is a whiner. it's always somebody else's fault. i think mr. blanche brought that out. today it is the judge's fault, the prosecutor's fault, the banker's fault, the loan officer's fault, it's trump's fault. you have to remember, ari, the lies are not totally related and

they don't begin and end with trump world. he lied about the medallions. he lied to the irs, to his wife about the reify. he lied to the judge. these have nothing to do with trump and it is always someone else's fault. he made a remark. in podcast. revenge is a dish best served cold. there's another quote. sinatra for many years had over his bar a quote saying, living well is the best revenge. maybe he should have taken that quote. because this guy is absolutely damaged goods. blanche tagged him with that phone call. that phone call is probably what is going to prevent a guilty verdict here. and there are two interesting things about that. >> let me slow you down. we were just discussing the phone call with the d.a.'s office. we'll get to that. i did want to mention, you said that cohen has been caught lying a lot and we've been reporting on that. of course, if that meant that someone wasn't fit to have their

day in court, you could have never represented donald trump when you did because he's been caught in more lies than any public person alive according to the "washington post" and other accounts. >> well, that's some type of political statement. i'm not here for politics. >> that's not a political statement. we're talking about lies in court. he's on trial. and you know he's a known and busted liar. since you're weighing in on cohen. >> i don't know that. and i'm not here -- i would say if president biden called me and i had the privilege of representing him, i would represent him. i look at all my clients like jo blow. the difference that you're looking at, this man took an oath and swore to tell the truth to this jury. did i represent with a team of lawyers, president trump at his second impeachment where he did not appear, nor did he testify. i did represent the trump pay roll corporation with lawyers where -- >> i know. the co-counsel. >> he was, president trump was

not a defendant. so the analogy fails because it's not like president trump took the stand in the cases that i represented him in and you could argue, did he tell the truth or not. this man took an oath to tell the truth to this jury. >> i'm not sure that the analogy fails but you did get your time to address it. and you mentioned the tape. i want to show some evidence to the audience and get your views on it. the secret recordings. did you tell people you were recording them? cohen admits no. blanche says who else did you record surreptitiously? and he gave a not exhaustive list but he mentioned the former cnn chief, zucker, trump, other reporters. what is going on here and what did you want to say about the tape issue? >> on the time issue, there are two lawyers i understand on that jury. i am offended as a lawyer that a lawyer would surreptitiously

record his client. donald trump, joe biden, or joe blow. >> i don't know this joe blow guy you keep bringing up. >> the average american citizen. >> couldn't help it. >> i know you do. the tape i think will be an issue with the two lawyers, and the issue that blanche brought out today about this phone call that you very accurately reported on the earlier segments. that's a huge, huge day for the defense. and there's an interesting parallel here. at least i see it. that the ultimate proof that the d.a. needs to show is that another crime was the goal of whatever happened or didn't happen. and cohen that, oh, no, no. it was all about the election. nothing about his wife and family. they're not usually exclusive. it could be both, one or the other. now we find out in the crucial call, he's calling to deliver the news.

the story matter is taken care of. he spends time talking about a 14-year-old kid. seventh grade? eighth grade? the guy never heard of call block? what kind of adult male fights with a 14-year-old kid. that's like your doctor calls you and you're waiting for days about boms results. and he says i have the biopsy test. let me tell you first about this 14-year-old seventh grader. >> here's what's interesting. we're bringing out the facts and reserving judgment. i will note as they say for the record, you, a defense counsel with experience representing trump, and the d.a., mr. levin in the previous segment. you are both agreeing on one thing. which is the effective point for the defense that raises doubt. we don't have the raises doubt michael cohen lied in this case. if the jurors can get past it, fine. if they can't, if they have doubt about that, if he lied about the stormy daniels phone call that he asserted under oath

occurred, that's a big one. i hope you come back, sir. >> thank you, ari. just quickly on that lying in this case -- >> i'm over time, 20 seconds. >> costello went before a congressional committee yesterday and said under oath everything cohen said about him was a lie in this case. devastating. >> you tell mr. costello to come on by "the beat." we'll be right back. be right ba. . what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market

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hello, i'm ari melber in for joy reid. welcome to this special coverage of donald trump's criminal trial in new york versus trump in a week that really could be make or break as key witness michael cohen took the stand, unloaded on trump, definitely hurt him, but then found himself on defense with trump's fate now hanging in the balance. >> the star witness takes the stand against donald j. trump. >> michael cohen now the star wince in the new york versus trump trial. cohen on the stand. >> the ex-president coming face-to-face with the man who used to do his dirty work who now has turned into the key witness. >> telling the court, quote, everything required mr. trump's sign-off. >> will cohen keep his cool when trump's lawyers begin what could be an intense cross-examination? >> i think the punches are building cumulatively. i think tuesday, there were bruises, and today there's blood. >> mr. cohen is a bad human being. >> if i was a juror watching that, i would think, this guy is

making this up as he's going along. >> is he making it up as he goes along? we heard different people, legal experts, longtime journalists and just other observers who have been close to this. i was inside the courtroom as you saw there several times covering this trial, including that key cross on thursday. and cohen did give the d.a.s what they wanted, including corroboration of what he says were realtime proof of trump being in on this criminal scheme. but as thursday continued, the defense continued to chip away at his credibility. monday, the prosecution had cohen narrating the entire hush money scheme. it looked bad for defendant trump. questions were about the catch and kill. playboy model and the adult actress. cohen testified trump knew there would be a, quote, significant impact on his presidential campaign if these stories came out. prosecutors pressed cohen about the daniels payment and cohen said trump was angry to learn the whole thing had resurfaced. i thought you took care of this.

an angry trump said, according to cohen's testimony. i thought this was under control. just take care of it. and cohen recounted what he did was at the direction of and the benefit for trump. this was a damning picture. and that trump was not only in on everything, but sharing in real time his own motives. in other words, if you believe cohen, you now have the motive piece. you don't even need cohen, the tabloid, and the money piece because you have other witnesses and the checks. so that looked bad. it was bad. for defendant trump. we reported on it. and then came the cross exam. what's happens in this trial, this is what everybody has been gearing up for, because over several days you had these defense attorneys going at cohen's credibility. not just saying he changed his story. that was previewed and the jury had been told that already. but that he continues to dissemble and lie, not just

about the core evidence in this case but about other unrelated stuff. and that his personal vendetta is not only clouding his judgment but that he personally cares so much, as he confirmed, it raised questions about whether that has colored or even distorted his ability to tell the truth on the stand. trump's defense aggressively pushing and questioning cohen on all kinds of things, and let's be clear. i mentioned this in my reporting thus far, some of it didn't completely add up. some of it didn't create a logical counterstory, but cumeiatively over the days it did appear to poke holes in not only cohen's credibility but something else that jurors may care about, they're human beings trying to decide who to believe, whether he over time went straight and told the truth or continued to be a kind of angry, unreliable person who was constantly publicly insulting the man he used to look up to.

>> donald cares for no one or anything other than himself. >> i know what mr. trump is. he's a racist, he is a con man. and he is a cheat. and i am going to jail in part because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment from the american people before they voted a few days later. >> do you remember that moment? that's now about 4 1/2, 5 years ago. we got all the way up to this trial, the only trial trump is facing after effectively delaying the others with an assist from his own appointeed on the conservative new supreme court. some people look at what you saw there and they see a whistleblower, someone who made mistakes but came clean. other people, though, and this is what the defense is pushing, might see someone who had one story to benefit him one way and another story when he got caught, and maybe even another

story as time went on. so they pushed him on the kind of resistance figure he's become with a podcast that repeatedly, meticulously documents his time with trump and his turning against trump. and t-shirts that show his one-time boss and mentor now in a prison cell. and how much he's motivated potentially by revenge. he wrote a book called "revenge." trump's lawyer also tried to at some times bait him. you can see the sketch artist there showing a lawyer who looks like clearly the most upset person in the room or the most heated in this moment saying we're not asking for your beliefs. the jury doesn't want to hear what you think happened. he also called him a liar at one point and cohen responded and rebutted that. the courthouse in lower manhattan also became something of a maga gathering place. what you see on your screen is not normal. i want you to understand that. i try to cover this stuff very fairly with the evidence. the people assembled to attack the rule of law, to undermine

the actual jury that's sitting, which is legally authorized to make this decision, those were the right-wing republicans that gathered in person to do that. including the highest ranking republican in the federal government, the speaker of the house, mike johnson, and other lawmakers. you see them there making this political pilgrimage, and then he was outflanked to his right by matt gaetz, a figure who helped topple the last speaker and has leverage over the current speaker. they're there, they lyonize trump in the same way cohen used to, and they're saying things that trump is actually been busted for saying in violation of the gag order, so he's sort of handed that off, which some experts say could be a second viles, a new violation of the gag order or the 11th or 12th, as they came out and did trump's dirty work. >> the judge inside, his daughter is making millions of dollars running against donald

trump raising money for donald trump's political opponents. >> the judge's own daughter is making millions of dollars doing online fund-raising for democrats. >> the judge's daughter is a political operative who raises money for democrats. >> what you just heard is wrong. and it's not just coming from a beleaguered defendant desperately trying to muddy the waters or from his own random paid political hacks, but from people who are leaders in government. if you have been watching our special coverage, you may have noticed we at msnbc are trying very hard to cover this very historic trial fairly. you'll see people from both sides, independent legal experts, people say things about the trial where some people might get mad, but don't shoot the messenger. there's no two sides to what you just heard there. a, it might be a gag order violation if, as one reporter said, donald trump was publicly personally writing those lines. because it's a violation of the gag order to instruct others on behalf of the defendant to

attack family members, children of the judge, as it should be. but second and more widely, i want to be clear. those officials have every right to attend the trial, to observe it. have every right to weigh in on it to some degree. but they have systematically several of them i played for you and several others who have come to town, they haven't just done that. they have undermined the rule of law in advance before this jury even hears the case. they have contributed to an environment where if they don't get the result they want, they will say, oh, we have already been attacking this court and if they do, it's entirely possible the defendant could be acquitted or have a hung jury and thus not be convicted, then they'll move right along without any apparent care for the system of government that they're in. remember, they're not just random commentators. they're members of the government which has three branches and this is one of them. it's the judicial branch that is supposed to be respected precisely because it is the less

partisan branch. it doesn't just do press releases. we haven't heard the d.a. respond to any of those politicians, let alone the judge. yet these people who know how it works are undermining it. when i say it's not normal, it's not normal and it's not done. we have had a tradition olpresidents in both parties, recently with the one on trial, but a tradition of saying, we'll wait to hear what the jury decides and we respect the ruling, the decision of the jury. just as you must respect supreme court rulings. because otherwise, the whole system crumbles and you don't have a rule of law democracy anymore. while this may look like a trump/anti-trump thing, it's a larger problem. i promise if folks show up at democrat bob menendez's trial and do the same thing, i'll tell you about it. i say that as a matter of fact. we can't do false equivalents when there's no equivalence to the underlying situation. we have to be careful at a time where people have already attacked the last peaceful transfer of power and that election which had no real

question about the winner, the current president won by three states, the supreme court didn't takeny appeals. there were none strong enough to hear, let alone overturn the results, but we had an insurrection and now we have that same crowd challenging the next election because trump might lose. they're worried he might lose and they're challenging that and now challenging the judicial process of our fellow citizens to judge him as they should judge any other defendant because that's what happens when you live in a rule of law and order. so while this trial is about the verdict, it's also about so much more. we can't have false equivalence about that. so our special coverage continues right now. we put this together to make sense of this big week and we have a top reporter from "the new york times" and a veteran of the manhattan d.a.'s office itself right after this.

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i'm giving the committee today a copy of the $130,000 wire transfer from me to ms. clifford's attorney that was demanded by ms. clifford to maintain her silence about her affair with mr. trump. >> long ago bombshells have become criminal evidence. that was michael cohen explaining all this to congress. he gave lawmakers the receipts, which became a big part of this week's case. >> as exhibit 5-a to my testimony shows, i am providing a copy of a $35,000 check that

president trump personally signed from his personal bank account on august 1st of 2017. when he was president of the united states. pursuant to the cover-up which was the basis of my guilty plea to reimburse me, the word used by mr. trump's tv lawyer, for the illegal hush money i paid on his behalf. this $35,000 check was one of 11 check installments that was paid throughout the year while he was president. >> we're joined now by "the new york times" magazine legal writer, alley baslon, and yareomy. welcome to both of you. here we are. i'm curious, emily, what you think having followed all the way back to when the story first broke and all the other trials that have been delayed. they're slated to go after the election. this is the one we have, and the

week started with michael cohen giving a version of that set of events to the jury and ended with him, i would say, on defense over whether he's always truthful. >> yeah, that clip really shows how this is the saga of michael cohen and donald trump's relationship, which was this relationship that cohen wanted to hold so close and so dear. it blew up on him. you know, this hush money scheme, his own role in it, in lying about it, sent him to prison. and now he's trying to bring donald trump into that scheme with him. of course, with the prosecutors behind him. and so, this story that he's been telling that he got in big trouble initially for lying about, then says that he told the truth about to congress, now there's supposed to be real consequences for donald trump who cohen cast as the principal. then the question is does he

have enough credibility for the jury to believe that version of events so he can pull trump down with him, essentially. >> yeah, that's well put. jeremy, you have been inside that office, you tried these kind of cases can you also do defense work. i want to play a little bit of cohen's history. there's so much talk about bias in the world, and the word, the idea that you're only doing something for your political views or something else. there's also information bias. we have all who follow this absorbed what emily just referred to as this relationship saga. we don't have any reason to believe from voir dire this jury has followed this closely, and they're now instructed not to. so i was watching in the courtroom this week as they kind of got more and more detail about this very strange odyssey and to them, it's new. it's newer information. here some of where cohen started. >> i know mr. trump. i have stood by him shoulder to

shoulder for the past decade. >> i think he's a wonderful man. obviously, i'm very loyal and very dedicated to mr. trump. >> i'll do anything to protect mr. trump, the family, now vice president elect pence. as well as the campaign. >> i think he's going to be a great president. >> mr. trump has a significant number of people, i would like to keep myself in that little circle of extremely loyal people. >> not exactly a resistance whistleblower, so the prosecutors argued that version of michael is why he did lie then and now is telling the truth. and the defense counsel argues how are you going to trust this guy, his story keeps changing? >> sammy the bull wasn't a good guy on day one, but he was loyal. we know donald trump loves loyalty, and he sort of supports, not sort of, in fact provides for and calls in loyalty. at some point, when you turn your back on someone, if you

believe the narrative, that person turns around and tells the story. but you're not getting the kingpin. you're not getting the big boss, you're not getting the major bad guy unless you have dirty hands. you want a choir boy, then it goes nowhere. you need that person in that room as part of that crime or that bad act to get the main player you're seeking. in this case, it's not sammy the bull but it's michael cohen. >> sammy the bull helped get gotti. >> teflon don wasn't teflon. >> did you see sammy the bull have the same recent credibility problems? because we heard from experts, including veterans of the office just like you, that they did get some punches landed because there were real questions about whether cohen has not just changed his story since he got in trouble, but been less than truthful recently. >> there wasn't -- you have to look at this not sort of as the heymaker. it's body blows, body blows.

i don't know if they landed enough. i think the prosecution did a good job humanizing him. he's not been the same cut from the same cloth as donald trump but different who would go on these tirades. he's been respectful and calm. at times more so on day one than day two. there was a little base i don't recall, it sounds correct. today he was much more yes and no. if he didn't recall, he didn't recall. going back to what i said before, at the end of the day, you're getting the bad guy because that's who has the information. whether or not he wanted to become chief or staff and told his daughter, whether or not he asked for a pardon, he's a regular guy who wants to be vindicated and doesn't want to go to prison. none of this is a home run. >> emily, there's so many lawyers in trump's orbit who are in trouble, cohen went to jail for him. other aides went to jail pursuant to mueller. today, i should say in the

thursday, i was in court, and saw jeff clark, who is a co-defendant in a wholly different case. i don't know why you want to bring a co-defendant from your other criminal problems into this courtroom, but there we are. michael avenatti clashed with cohen, and then was convicted of other crimes in this same orbit and all the attention and television drew scrutiny to him. i was able to obtain his first jailhouse interview. i said that and repeat now that he was convicted for crimes related to lying. he has his own set of issues. but he was the person on the other side of this everyone remembers. one thing he said from the prison interview is he thinks there is evidence to convict trump. he expects trump to be convicted, but he previewed what he said would be problems with cohen, not withstanding the fact they have clashed in the past. take a listen. >> every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story. from my perspective, i surmise that the d.a. is going to use

potentially michael cohen or stormy daniels for that purpose. and i think that has the potential to be a disaster. michael cohen is -- you know, i have never been a fan of michael for various reasons. you know, he's a serial liar. he's shown himself to be incapable of telling the truth. >> emily. >> well, michael avenatti obviously has a problem with michael cohen. you can see it there. you know, one thing that i have been thinking about is the way in which cohen's previous testimony in the civil trial involving the trump organization gave him a chance to rehearse. you know, we're seeing someone here who is much calmer in terms of demeanor, is holding it together on the stand. and we'll see if that's enough to convince the jury. i mean, he has weaknesses. he has done lying in the past. whether he's now kind of atoning for that lying or making up for it by telling the part of the story that's true, i mean, that's what this tests.

and obviously, if you have a record of being convicted of perjury, like automatically not the best witness. but the prosecution really tried to lay the groundwork for the idea that this isn't a great guy. they're relying on him for a key fact, for this idea that trump knew about these checks. the fraud part of the case against him. and so, you know, we're going to have to see whether this is enough. and then also, what happens next? does the defense put on witnesses? who are they? how does this case go from here and how do we look back on cohen's testimony when we have the whole shape of the trial. >> going backwards forward. what does the defense case look like from here? i think after they hit their points with michael cohen, let's get him off the stand and at some point, the jury loses interest when you keep on saying the same thing and you lied about this, you lied about that, because the prosecution is saying he may have lied at the

time but it doesn't make them a liar. >> i promised to let you weigh in on something we led with, this spectacle of politicians and the government undermying the rule of law, which is not normal. >> not even as a defense attorney, just as someone who believes in the criminal justice system which is one of the foundations of our country, to say it's wholly inappropriate, to say it's wholly offensive and reprehensible is not doing it justice. it's a complete understatement. these folks who are getting up there, i'm going to use a term that may offend people. this has nothing to do with donald trump's innocence in the courtroom. but when you talk about wanting to be loyal to get something, that's why they're there. this is a bunch of, here we go, bootliquors who are really obsessed with donald trump who want nothing but to be his lap dog. if donald trump wins, they'll get their fiefdom.

that's not what justice is about. why the governor of one of the dakotas is here in new york talking about a criminal trial in the state of new york, in new york city, is beyond me. >> and undermining the rule of law. >> 100%. you want to talk about your neighbor to the south or north shooting their dog, great, do that. but don't come to new york and undermine justice. if there's a political issue here, i get that. >> i mentioned you being a prosecutor because it brings extra heft. we have seen in the federal system, this is a local case, there are precedents where they will throw out an entire military trial because someone said anything about it. this is supposed to be the tradition is, you're going to follow what the jury says, period. that's after the fact. let alone prejudging it. >> by their theory, then, if we have a trial in alabama, automatically, a republican prosecutor, a democratic candidate, it's bad. i'll say this. most people here are maybe watching from new york, but

allen, he was a comptroller, he was not held to a higher standard in the courtroom, but he was outside the courtroom because we hold elected officials to a higher standard, to more scrutiny. you should be treated equally in the courtroom, 100%. when donald trump finds himself in the position, true or not, because he has not been proven guilty, it's himself to blame to start this off. >> again, i don't mean to sound old fashioned, school house rock, civics, but something i touched on with you and our discussion with emily, we all have to understand, these are members of the government. it has to be a different standard. we're talking about whether you support the government you're a part of, and we sahib the insurrection some of the soft minimization or support for that. if you have the calls coming from inside,and members of the government won't uphold the judicial branch, then we're in a big problem regardless of the outcome of the case. thanks to both of you. good to see you. after that maga parade,

we'll get into that with a historian, douglas brinkley. next, a special preview of the punch back, if cohen was on defense, what comes next week? we got you covered. >> i'm visiting president trump in the oval office for the first time. he says to me something to the effect of, don't worry, michael. your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. . ...but they can be remade in a whole new way. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back... and we've developed a way to make new ones from 100% recycled plastic. new bottles - made using no new plastic. you'll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. and when we get more of them back... ...we can use less new plastic. see how our bottles are made to be remade.

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was indicted people said it's here, and then it turned out some of the indictments didn't turn into trials. he had four indictments but only one trial slated before the election. then you heard this trial was started, people say it's here. i can tell you, following this closely, it's here for real in the next week or two. by which i mean they are going to continue this trial, but we know they're going to finish witnesses this coming week. and it's going to go to the jury this week or the week after. so woe are actually really, totally here. and all of trump's delay tactics filed. if he thought violated the gag order might slow it down, the judge might have outsmarted him on that. michael cohen back on the stand monday. the defense will finish its cross-examination. we can tell you based on how many days it has been, that should end by that morning or early afternoon. the judge told both sides be ready to give your closing arguments the following day, tuesday. that's the end, then trump's

fate officially transfers to those 12 citizens, a jury of his peers, to decide whether or not he's guilty of a felony. we're joined by a former federal prosecutor, renato mariotti, and catherine christian. it really is here now. >> yes. >> what is key next week? >> well, the judge promised june 3rd it will be over before that unless some catastrophe happened. the key is will the defense put on any defense case? i doubt it. i could be proven wrong. if they don't, then we could have summations on sunday -- i'm sorry, on tuesday. >> let's talk about what that means. number one, nothing wrong with that, nothing to infer from that. >> nothing to infer. >> they had no burden. and often, it is a wise strategy to not put on a full defense. >> often there is no defense. >> right, which means you don't do it. can you remind us why that is? >> because the prosecution have the burden. this will never happen, but defense attorneys don't even

have to do cross-examinations. they don't have to do opening statements. it's the prosecution has the burden. the defendant has an absolute right to testify. he also has an absolute right not to testify. and the prosecution cannot in any way in their summation or through their questionings infer that why didn't defendant say this, why didn't the defense bring any witnesses? because that's like an immediate i want a mistrial. so it's not -- it shouldn't be held against donald trump if no witnesses, because that's what most defendants do. this apparently, michael cohen is the prosecution's last witness. what you'll hear the prosecution say is the people rest. >> and as for whether or not, you mentioned the right, the right to testify, most defendants don't. there's many reasons why trump shouldn't. i was questioning one of his former lawyers today, discussing the fact he's a known habitual liar among other reasons. the likelihood he takes the stand, i think it's more likely that beyonce forgets how to sing

and dance than that donald trump testifies, but i will say for the sake of evidence, the judge asked, referred to the transcript, the court. the court says do you have any indication whether trump, his client, will testify? blanche says no. the judge pushes a little, no determination yet. blanche says no. can we read anything other than they're maintaining suspense. >> if the defendant is going to testify, that's two days. we're pushing it past what i promised the jury. that's just the defense, i don't want to say coy, they don't have to tell him. >> why don't you want to say coy? >> i don't want to accuse him. i don't know the strategy. >> i think he's being a little coy. he has a client who likes to always keep an eye on what's going on outside the courtroom. he's running for president, and this idea that trump might testify -- >> the client is saying i don't know yet. then you're like -- >> i have just seen this movie

too many times. renato, this is not fast and furious the sequel or the fourth one. this is the eighth one and donald trump doesn't testify but he tries to create the environment of bravado, of tough, of strong, and he's not afraid and all that. with that put to rest, your view of what's important in this pivotal week coming absolutely. what the defense should do is find witnesses who can get in their story but aren't named donald trump. the challenge is finding such a witness who is willing to come forward. the d.a. has made clear, if you commit perjury, you're going to be prosecuted. that's why we didn't hear from allen weisselberg. really what they need to do is come up with a short set of questions for michael cohen after the break, something that's very memorable for the jury, something that sticks in their minds and sit down and stop talking on and on. >> renato -- renato, you have done a mock trial with us before. old school msnbc beatniks may remember, you and alan

dershowitz went to a new york courtroom and did a trial. do you have examples of questions you would like to see cohen asked next week to deal with what we discussed, on the one hand, real doubts raised. on the other hand, a lot of receipts back him up. >> they need to focus on the pieces of his testimony that don't have receipts. that don't have corroboration. and they haven't done that. that's really the biggest failure thus far. >> what would you ask? >> well, i would ask, for example, mr. cohen, there is no email whatsoever from donald trump to you regarding the falsification of business records, is there? there's no text message, there's no -- you don't have a recording of donald trump talking to you about falsifying business records, do you? walk through all of the ways in which you can isolate pieces of his testimony that aren't corroborated. that's what the defense should be focused on but they're all over the place. that's the biggest failure of the defense thus far. >> interesting. that's a different view,

catherine, because -- >> and then sit down. >> well, catherine, i think it's fair to say that the defense has been meandering, and at times boring, and this is a story. you never want to be too boring. but we had multiple experts on, again, if you're not just wishing trump convicted as many people are for many valid reasons, i don't detract from why people think this man should face justice, but talking about what happened in the past week and bhauts going to happen next week, there's a lot of folks saying they have raised questions. i guess my question for you is, what do you think the prosecutors can do in the office you have been in to tighten this up next week with cohen? >> well, it's going to be interesting because cohen, i would always wonder what's going to come out of his mouth. i think he's a liar, they can't tighten that up. they might want to tighten up, he keeps trying to revisit that plea of guilty to the text which has nothing to do with donald trump.

>> too bad, yeah. >> i pled guilty, i shouldn't have been prosecuted. it was the judge's fault who is corrupt who is now dead. somehow try to clean it up and have him say i pled guilty because i was guilty. maybe he can't say that. i would hate to put -- usually as a prosecutor, that's what the defendant says and i laugh. if it's your own witness, that's a problem. >> in a world without objections you might say we keep hearing this is so important to you. and you have such strong feelings. and you have been building up to this. you have been podcasting about it constantly. doesn't that mean that every fiber of your being wants to do this right and honestly and not blow it? if it's so important to you, you don't want to blow it, right? without an objection, you try to reverse it that way or mention that in closing to the jury, right? >> you're talking about the prosecution? >> yeah, tightening it up. you had a bad couple days. there's an idea he's so

emotional he can't be trusted. there's another idea this is so important to him and he already went to prison once. why would he perjure himself now? >> i wouldn't say that about him because he's so -- such a liar, i would not wrap my arms around him. i would as a prosecutor go through every piece of corroboration and circumstantial evidence that proves guilty and then say, and then of course, you can see all of the things that mr. cohen said is not the nicest person and who is a convicted perjurer, but he's credible here. >> would you -- we're over on time. would you in closing say we showed you cohen to show you everything, but we don't even need him to prove this case? >> i don't know if i would go that far because if you have jurors who would say, oh, because we don't believe him, but we think you do need him, so i wouldn't go that far. i would say, he's here because he tells the story, but he's corroborated. >> renato, you almost get the impression this stuff is harder

than it looks. we tip our hat to all the seasoned members of the bar, renato and catherine, thank you. coming up, club maga. how they're getting roasted and what history teaches us. doug brinkley, our special guest for our special coverage, trump on trial. the balloons and the raptor cake. now, how about something to put a smile on your face? aspen dental provides complete, affordable care with dentists and labs in one place plus free exams and x-rays for new patients without insurance... and 20% off treatment plans for everyone. quality care at a price worth celebrating. it's one more way aspen dental is in your corner.

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top republicans have taken time out of their official duties to come to new york and show support for defendant trump. at times, to undermine the rule

of law itself. we have seen the spectacle inside the courtroom with the speaker of the house, the veepstakes, matt gaetz and others attacking this trial. >> i think this trial is absolutely ridiculous. i think it's a sham prosecution. >> i wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. >> this is a made-up crime. >> this is a scam, a sham, a show. >> this is a crooked sham trial. >> this trial is a joke. this thing is a farce. >> this is a sham. this is not the united states of america. this is some third rate banana republic. >> we're joined by presidential historian doug brinkley. i suppose the opening question is the trial a sham or is that effort by members of the government to undermine the government's rule of law a sham? >> what a clown show of republicans coming in, defending donald trump on the hush money case.

dozens of republicans are saying the same kind of words because trump wants them, you have a gag order on me, well, you can have my surrogates. they're going to defend me. look at matt gaetz, nee ofascist proud boy rhetoric there. look at tuberville tumbling in from alabama. the collective idiocy of the republicans there to defend donald trump, it's embarrassing for them. and the republican party has many good members, smart people in it, but anybody who thought to show up and kiss trump's ring and grab a media moment i think did -- dented their reputation. >> we have a lot of what they used to call definance deviousy down, as a historian, can you think of other active members of government, not fringe figures, impugning and undermining trial before the jury even ruled?

>> no. it's startling to me. we're dealing with the first time either a sitting or ex-president is facing criminal charges. we were on day 18 today. michael cohen had three days. why not just get out of the way? but the maga movement is an attempt to undermine the constitution. undermine our institutions. make people think that justice doesn't work in the united states. and we no longer know it's about a couple fringe figures. it's the dominant trend in the gop. but it's sad. and it's frightening because this shows us what a tinder box really our democracy is standing on when that many members of one of our parties would stoop to such a ridiculous one of our p would stoop to such a ridiculous level. >> and trump awaits his fate. as i repeated, he is presumed innocent, but other people are

not. there have been convictions for sedition for storming the capital, the brutal violence against police, the insurrection. as a candidate trump has mused openly repeatedly about pardoning these people. not saying they didn't do it, which can be a lawful use of the pardon, but saying he is going to pardon them anyway. i don't know if the word would be vigilantism or -- >> they ought to release the j6 hostages. >> i will look very favorably about full pardons and i mean full pardons with an apology. >> january 6 defendants are having their lives destroyed and being treated worse than terrorists and murderers and if i become president, someday if i decide to do it, i will be looking at them very, very

seriously for pardons. >> regardless of the outcome of this trial, does that context matter? should americans be concerned that this failed coup leader has been openly talking about amnesty for convicted seditionist's? >> absolutely. who would think when we watched what happened january 6 and listened to people, mitch mcconnell and lindsey graham, denounced trump, that a cycle like this would occur where people are willing to back somebody talking about giving blanket pardons to people who ran an insurrection on the u.s. capital, beat police, through our country helter-skelter off of its fear and yet trump is advertising it and people are saying, great. he is an autocrat, but taking the use of pardon as a weapon and basically if you elect

trump he will arrest you if you feel like it or let you out of jail if he feels like it. that is why he is such a danger and why we all have to be very awake right now, to see a neo- fascism rising across the land. it's been there for a while, but the fact this many people would go to new york on the stormy daniels, $130,000 event and flood in and back his action and try to disrupt our legal system in this fashion with reckless rhetoric, it is staggering. >> 30 seconds. do you think the founders underestimated how much the pardon power could be abused for encouraging crimes against the nation? >> absolutely. it is not just donald trump. i think presidents have been abusing pardon power. we saw problems with bill clinton. we've seen every president in some way probably pardon the wrong people. it is a sense of abuse of power. donald trump saying reelect me

to president because i will abuse power and anybody on the right, anybody in a fascist state of mind are my friends, so i will let you out of jail. >> that is well put. the founders give a lot of thought to the abuse of power, given breaking with colonial england and conservatives traditionally worry about excessive power, federal government power india to have someone clearly taking control of the republican party. not conservative in that sense, as you said, running on abuse of power. douglas brinkley, thank you, sir. up next we go behind the scenes. we told you how many of our reporters are going into the trial. there are a lot of people going in as witnesses and observers and we will show you that next. i'm taking control like millions of others.

we have seen the nation and much of the world riveted by this ongoing trial of former president trump. in new york, many big, large crowds of people wait in the line to get in. this is separate from the maga supporters or other people who stand outside to make a point. we are talking about one of the most elusive tickets in the city of manhattan. those long lines starting early in the morning are to try to get into the courtroom and scalping can become a thing. some have sold their seat for hundreds and last night the

comics weighed in. >> it seems like the only thing we are accomplishing is making sure trump is well rested before the election. >> cohen laid out tons of evidence. it is very impressive. i wonder if trump's lawyers might win a case. >> trump ordered him to pay daniels $130,000, telling him to just do it. in response, nike has changed their slogan to sneakers. >> michael cohen was questioned about his use of tiktok and other people are also using the platform watching the trial. >> michael cohen, donald trump's former attorney testified under oath. >> today was the straight up funniest day in court. >> this is where todd blanche is getting to cohen a little bit. >> the testimony has been nothing short of a complete disaster for donald trump. >> we are living through this together and