dienst about what they said, and essentially senator menendez was going to argue he wasn't in a loop with a lot of the stuff his wife and codefendant nadine was done in terms of gold bars, mercedes-benz in terms of -- if he's not throwing her totally under the bus, he's certainly saying she was responsible, and he was not. the issue where that is there's a lot of evidence, including a google search on his part inquire how much of a kilo of gold was worth, according to the indictment. again, nadine menendez is not on trial. she has health problems, and will go on trial later. essentially he's trying to say his wife is responsible for some of the conduct. that does it to me today.

"deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone, welcome to wednesday, a critical chapter in the trial of the ex-president is coming to a close. questions now swirl about what happens next n trump election interference trial. todd blanche failed to land any significant blows to michael cohen's credibility, something they're desperate to do after he was put in the center of the scheme to catch and kill negative stories that could have hurt donald trump's campaign. he told the jury that the president himself signed off on the plan to hide the expenses. todd blanche started this way,

these are literally the first words out of the his mouth. you and i have never spoken or met, have we? to which cohen replied, we have not. todd blanche, but you know who i am? cohen answers, i do blanche asking, on april 23rd, so after the trial started in this case, you went on tiktok and called me a, quote, crying little -- cohen supplies that might be something i would say. blanche went on to defend -- mr. cohen responded calmly that those sounded like things he would have said, looking for the defense still hunting for a moment to badly damage his credibility. once cohen is off the stand, the $64 million question becomes this. what does trump do? does he testify? in court ked todd blanche kept

cards close to his chest, saying there decision has been made. in fact, it's unclear at this moment to us and to the judge if the defense will even put on a case. judge merchon asked, if i understand you correctly, your only once you know of right now is the expert possibly? he replies, correct, the judge, and maybe not? >> and todd blanche says, and maybe not. if the defense does not put on any witnesses, jurors will have heard from about 20 -- insiders -- paralegals, with only remote ties to the expresident, with a ton of paper, documentary evidence to take with them and consider, including a potential smoking gun in the form of those handwritten notes from trump org

employees up on your screen. "new york times" reports one month in they have hard about porn stars, payoffs and panics, but jurors will also have a raft of documents to evaluate, including a series of checks sent to mr. cohen who reaffirmed that the description of the checks as payments for legal retainer were false. the trump election interference hush money trial barreling toward its conclusion is where we begin with some of our most favorite reporters. two of the best of the best. vaughn hillyard, and special correspondent for "the hollywood reporter" lockland cartwright. vaughn, where are we? >> we are here at the moment where -- >> i know where we are, but you know, where we're located, but where are we with the trial? >> looking at the jurors

yesterday, number one, the jurors were engaged. they were looking at michael cohen back to susan and back to cohen, and then from cohen to todd blanche. they have followed the story up to this point and now they are hearing the words of the man who says he was the middleman for donald trump in this scheme to get him elected. for them there's one man they haven't heard from, that's donald trump, the defendant, who has slouched down, backwards in his chair consistently with his eyes closed 80% to 90% of the time so it's up to the jurors to decide who to believe. thursday could very well be the final time they heard from michael cohen, the last witness for the prosecution. >> it's impossible to touch you, but i feel like i surprised you which, at this hour yesterday, i

looked at the "new york times" blog, and that todd blanche is bombing. maybe i was a little over my skis at the moment. but i read politico, axios, "new york times," and it is at best a disastrous first impression. it didn't look like a strategy to indict the cold hard evidence that the jury had seen. any reporting on what happened? >> if i may, sometimes it's a reporter, we jump into stories that are not always necessarily we're experts in. i'm not a legal journalist, right? that is where i didn't know how to wholly respond to you yesterday other than to respond it was weird. there was dead air in the room, stagnant. todd blanche seemed to be going down odd track that is didn't connect with me as a human being. why did he carry if michael cohen was leaking stories?

of course he was selling books to make money for his family. those were obvious points, to that was an affirmation on the back back of that. but for donald trump, sitting a mere ten feet away, is going through that questioning, i don't know exactly what led to this moment here, but they've had a year to plan. they've had six years, and that is what they came up with the cross-examination, questions whether they was trying to work -- and a mere two hours earlier michael cohen told the jury early, i lied, yes, i was a bully, yes, i sold books because i'm trying to support mire family. everything you're asking now is completely compatible with everything that i already admitted to just this morning. >> we're not lawyers.

so we should sneak this in before an dry weissmann, so make some of the challenge was, you know, cook the crow, eat the crow, swallow the beak, eat all the feathers, so todd blanche got up trying to make him feel bad, but the prosecution had her done the work. almost we get to monday and michael cohen comes in, and he just wasn't that. he was very cool, calm under pressure, and fast forward when the cross comes, and, you know, i was sitting there expecting

this full frontal well thought out, very strategic, very, you know, planned out, and it just was a scattergun approach, he's a jilted lawyer, he's in it for the money. i'm curious where we go tomorrow, where if they recalibration. they haven't address the bits the paper. they haven't addressed any of that. the dynamite reporting, you know, they need to address some of this hard evidence. that's where tomorrow will become very essential. do we know if it's if you're going to put on a case? >> i think that we're dealing with a reality that tomorrow the prosecution could wrap up after the redirect if they so choose,

and this could come down to closing arguments as soon as monday. we could have a ruling next week. for the defense, it is different to fathom them not bringing anyone forward. i say that from a place of understanding donald trump and his politics, is that you go into the ring, right? today was about -- he likes to fight, right? he wants every opportunity, because he believes he also hires the best. so, he has publicly said that his attorneys are doing well on his behalf, but ultimately, let's see next week if it brings a case forward here, so the difficulty is he has an array of individuals that came in and testified against him and provide evidence that ultimately could lead to a guilty verdict.

>> the idea that nothing would be presented to refute what jurors have seen with their eyes and ears feels like a risk. he certainly didn't take it with the voters in 2016, when he made sure that pecker would help hide the stories. >> and what does david pecker know? i said, a lot. and he really was the ultimate tour guide. he took us back to the meeting in august of 2015, which really is the scene setter, where he goes to meet with michael cohen and donald trump, and they asked what he can do. i'll be the eyes and ears. and then we've gone to hear in this case, in forensic detail from the likes of stormy daniels

about why her story was so critical to come off the market just before the election, in light of the "access hollywood" tape, and the prosecution brought such a strong case, what will the defense bring to refute a lot of these? >> i think on the down days, and thank you for being here on the day you don't have to be in court, but it seems like all we knew about trump before, and those who covered him in '16, and again in '20, and it's that he alone in a room with stormy daniels, her sworn testimony is that his lying to her was just like my daughter ivanka. he sawed vicious smears against her, and i think it's fascinating that michael cohen took the stand and talked as much about his reverence to

trump, and he still reveres the time he worked for trump. i'm as cynical and despondent about our state of the politics and the death of truth, but i think those of us who cover trump has a lot of new nuanced understanding of how desperate and aware he was, after "access hollywood" he would be done if they got hood of the stormy daniels story, and how enamored michael cohen was with his employ. >> and the means he will go to win an election, one he is actively runs for now, and for everybody, when we talk about the revolving door of loyalty to donald trump, if you go back to 2015, michael cohen is

testifying he was having a meeting behind the scenes with david pecker to catch and kill. in 20125, speaker mike johnson was somebody who called him somebody with a lack of morality, and yesterday cohen testified that loyalty is what undodd the relationship, and then mike johnson is calling into question cohen's credibility. this is the story of a man who will do whatever it takes in order to advance, whether it be his business entities, whether it be his political motives, or his brand and his help station here. to the extent the american public is listening and engaging, he is still six months out from running this political election, willingfully throwing

people off his ship for years. keith shiller, alen weisselberg, we don't expect them, and why do two such key figures are not being there? are they communicating that the loyalty that michael cohen said he had for years to donald trump is part of the reason why those two are scared to go and testify before them today. that is the part of the question how does a prosecution help tell the story. >> nothing stops the defense from calling them, they just don't want them available to the prosecution for a cross? >> absolutely. for the prosecution there's nervousness they object fuss indicate, plead the gift or just outright lie. >> so let's play what if. trump trying to testify in the e. jean carroll -- we have some

of that. >> yeah, i do, sure. i do. it's very dishonest. mail-in ballots are very dishonest. >> isn't it true you yourself vote by mail? >> i do. i don't even know the -- it's marla? >> you're saying marla in this photo. >> that's marla, yeah. that's my wife. >> which one are you pointing to? >> carroll. >> the person you just pointed to is ms. carroll. [ bleep ]. >> if you look over the last million years, that's been largely true, not always, but largely true, unfortunately or fortunately. >> and when you said before, it was just locker room talk. >> locker room talk.

>> did you really mean it? >> no, it's locker room talk, just the way people talk. >> so, again, we have no idea if he'll take the stand or if he would sound like that. recent performances have been subpar to that performance, but in that deposition, under questioning that was skilled, not combative, confuses his wife with e. jean carroll, says for one million years, men could grab women between between their legs. votes by mail is -- but he did not prevail. he was found liable. what do you think the one, odds that he takescover? >> i'm celebrating at the prospects of donald trump takin addressing what we have heard from david pecker, what we heard

from stormy daniels, and then the cross to that would be even more incredible. so pack your popcorn and that line for the overflow room would be will youout downtown manhattan. i think the calculation the defense would make by putting him up is just too dangerous. i think it would be absolutely too dangerous for the jury to see him being grilled about some of this stuff? i just can't see it happening. >> but this years ago, in the e. jean carroll, the second defamation trial, he testified for just three minutes, though, and there were very strict parameters, and the judge was very specific that donald trump would not be able to further litigate whether he sexually abused e. jean carroll.

why? a jury one year prior in the civil case that we just watched the deposition for, he chose not to testify in front of the jury for that case. for the better part of the year after that decision, he regretted not testifying. that's why in the second trial earlier this year, he wanted to see that. the judge said we are here over a defamation case, not determineding whether you sexually abused her. that's when he stormed out of the courtroom, saying this is not america. he ended up getting the $90 million penalty on top of that. we already have a body of evidence that he regretted testifying. >> so your odds of seeing him? >> he's not a donald trump of eight years ago, even in 2023. to that extent he has such confidence to execute on his message, and a willingness to make statements that -- we note that donald trump lies and makes up things.

he extent to which his own freedom with potential imprisonment on the line, especially in the scenario if he were to lose the november election, i would not put it past him to take the stand on a case that could determine not just his political future, but also at a time when he's telling the american public i don't back down, i'm willing to be your guy, your voice. if you're willing to be that man and that voice, i would call into question whether he would be unwilling to take that stand. >> can we stake on a bet? >> this is about his manliness, right? if you have your liberty on the line, are you going to take your best swing? or put todd kinda sorta whiffed blanche up to bat?

>> trump might be seeing i'm the best representation, i can do a bit of a go of it. someone was asking me, i still don't get the days, who is the actual victim here? the victim is the american public. they didn't know about all of this stuff before the 2016 election. they didn't no about karen mcdougal. they didn't know about stormy scandal. that's who the victim is here. some of this we're getting lost in what actually happened, because there's so much to take in, but you have to remember the american electorate was none the wiser for what went on. >> and there could be the potential a jury could very well see the american public was impacted, and in fact it was a campaign violation. the question though, is will the jury acknowledge that and also can they provide him in leniency and make the ultimate determination he was wholly knowledgeable about the actual execution and falsification of business records. that's the distinction for the jury here. i'm not fully convinced the

prosecution has completely drilled that home. >> david kelly, who is unwilling to go on a limb and see things play out was more forward leaning than he's ever been. i asked him about that. he said, in terms of proving the underlying crime to the degree you have to prove is not a reasonable doubt, there's not criminal charges, and he schedule he thought that that had been accomplished, but to your point, sort of tying together the pieces of paper that show the fraudulent report, the jury is an open question. i've said every hour every day, we have no how they're processing this. we have no idea what they're thinking. we have to sneak in a quick program. we'll have andrew w eismt iismt

weissman here. he may have tried to editorializing the remarks from his sicksycophants, but it's be year since trump has faced substantive questions on a debate stage, but not for long. very soon, very shortly, americans will have a split-screen moment. don't go anywhere. split-screen moment. don't go anywhere.

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us. is it standard to sell the judge on what could be the second to last or last day of the cross-examination of the final witness you do not know if you'll present a indication or not. you don't know yet if you're going to have a case? >> it is not uncommon for the defense to saw we don't know that. one of the arguments that the defense has for supporting that view is that they don't know fully what the state's case is. they don't see the full cross of michael cohen yet. so they can use that both legitimately and as a figure leaf to say we haven't made a firm decision. it also isn't unusual to say, judge, we may have just one or two witnesses. here it is important to know

there were only three witnesses that they noticed as possible defense witnesses -- donald trump, an expert and alan garten, the general counsel of the trump organization. they did say they're pulling the general counsel. smart idea. he was kind of a disaster when he testified in connection with the removal hearing in georgia. just not a good idea for a variety of reasons. it's also to keep the prosecution guessing whether the defendant will testify. strategically, one reason to do this, and i don't mean this in a pejorative way, it keeps the state going on two tracks, thinking about preparing for cross-examination. >> what do you think? >> the prosecution is probably hoping he does. i think it would be a huge

mistake. however, it is the defendant's decision. just to be clear, it is not the lawyers' decision. it is very normal to make sure that that's the case. it's very often the judge will actually turn, if you are the defendant and say, ms. wallace, do you understand you have the right to testify? and are you making the decision not to? so that there isn't a claim later -- >> and the judge already had that conversation with trump. >> he also said the same thing is it's not way of saying you're lying, but the judge is being very polite, and doesn't do that, but i think at this point he would make sure. why? you don't want to claim, if there's a conviction later, that he was denied his right to

testify. you never know with donald trump whether he's going to be i'm better than all my lawyers? he did that in the e. jean carroll case, that looks like what he did in the second trial, and that didn't turn out too well. so it is possible he'll take the stand. >> he always wanted to do it in the investigation you were a part of, he always wanted to sit down with robert mueller. >> what i will say is he already said that. >> and then lied in his written responses. i'm wondering what you make of -- onto bash talk blanche, but i wonder what you make of how he might recalibrate to get some wind in his sail and how the prosecution is preparing for a reefforted, revamped sort of

last. >> if i'm a prosecutor, i might be very tempted to do no redirection examination, which definitely signals, you know, they don't think a glove was landed on him, and, you know, i don't think it was, in the sense that what -- his credibility issues, in terms of has he lied in the past, has he committed crimes, we know that, there's no redirect on that. did you really plead guilty. >> there's really no reason to say that. i didn't see todd blanche bringing out something that was so new or different.

you know, he tells you that he lied under oath in congress about the russia investigation, but he also told you that at the time there was an investigation he was told don't speak to donald trump, and so -- all communication was cut off. and the suggestion, so donald trump had no way you ever communicating to him what it is that he expected, so if he lied, it was just on his own. that's not how investigations work. >> and there's already testimony about the cutout that rudy giuliani created. >> yes. i hate to say it, but it goes

on. when you have gang cases, group criminality cases, there's cutouts that exist. you know, that's something susan hoffinger might do. i think todd blanche should try to come up with themes and tell graph them to the jury. >> it's wednesday, and he said he spent months preparing for this, so today you think he should try to find some themes? [ laughter ] >> look -- >> i didn't mean to put any guardrails. i think trump that's obsessed with performance, wanted john bolton to shave his moustache, tiffs a stunning moment, to be reading look and -- let me say this as someone who has covered michael cohen for years. i like michael cohen. there's plenty of material.

the fact he didn't have a case to make is amazing. not only is there a mountain -- this is the easiest cross ever. there's a mountain of material, and he decided to go to the capillaries instead of the utterriys, and it's about him personally and the judge sustain the objection. >> all right. the republican field trip to court yesterday is still a topic of conversation. we've learned some new details about how involved the criminal defendant was in the visit and the things they said. we'll tell but that, next. sd we'll tell but that, next. it than ever, but so is saving. that's why america's best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just $79.95. book an exam online today. -dad, what's with your toenail?

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the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked! you'll love swiffer or your money back! who will it be tomorrow? which lucky republican will have nothing better to do tomorrow than shlep up to manhattan, just to join the ranks of donald trump's groupies. fueled by self-preservation, or ambition. they past few days have sort of turned into performance art. they say what he can't say about the witnesses, the judge and the facts. in listen.

>> in court yesterday, i actually was sitting close enough that he was actually reading the quotes. on the paper he was actually going through, and an oat a timing and an at a timing. the quotes. >> george, of course, donald trump was editing the things that the vps were saying. >> did doing that, had was

violating the gag order. he brought these people, encouraged them to come to man has not, and sent them out. there's another things going on that's worth going on. this is part of a massive effort that appears to be going on in the trump side to keep this man from blowing up, to keep him on a relatively emotional even keel for donald trump. you say this last week, you know, where there's a story in "new york times," where they're printing out things to cheer him up, and then you saw how last week he lost can in the trial when stormy daniels was testifying, and the judge could hear his swearing. he could have been any jail for

that. they're bringing the people up there to show a fealty to him, to quest his narcissistic thirst. that's actually probably a good deal of what's fully going on there. i mean, they are trying to maintain his psychological composure, which is a very, very difficult thing to do. >> i love the line narcissistic thirst. does that lead you to him wanting to testify? if i was a low, i would tell him not to testify it reminds me of robert woodward areas first book, where he quotes john

daoud, saying the reason why he couldn't testify is he's an effing liar. he would be torn to shreds in about three minutes, but that said, he didn't listen. if he doesn't testify, it isn't ball he decided to follow legal advice. he's causing his lawyers torrid stupid things in court, with the miscues. he doesn't listen to his lawyers, if he doesn't testify, it's because he's scared. donald, you like to say the things in the hallway, because nobody gets to ask you questions. if they ask questions, you walk away. donald, you are a wuss. you are scared of actually doing what stormy daniels had to do and what michael cohen had to do and what every other person who is called -- you know, you can't

call these people liars, donald, unless you go on the stand and tell your trust. let's here it. are you afraid, donald? i think you are. >> i know you're trying to make him southwest. you're making mess sweat as much as i covet the idea. >> i want justice to per vail. >> i am tolely indifferent. listen, i had a sort that said we will lay our bodies down before we let trump testified. i guess my questions for you. >> i wrote a piece who a great

lawyer, and she's -- she's the smartest one in the bunch. about being tough, and that's why she overdid it. i think the same thing happened here. you know, starting off the crocks, you called me a little you know what? and it's like, gee, it struck me that, i don't know whether this man blanche is a little -- or not, but he certainly sounds like something a little you-know-what would do on cross-examination, so michael seems to be proving right. >> i love that you just go there. i have to sneak in a break. i get we'll see on social media if your message has been received. don't go anywhere. if your message has been received don't go anywhere.

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we're back with george. what george is talking about, this actual violation of the gag order, is the actual thing that he's charged with doing. i mean, having someone catch and kill a story is not a different play, if you will, than what he's doing carving thinks people out to violation the gag order for him. >> they were at disposal for hit

pieces on his rivals. it was hillary clinton, you know we were writing these boscers bonkers, and know they were -- and now you have donald trump bringing down they people every day -- we don't know who we'll get tomorrow. it will probably by the last option for the vp trials. it's a mirror of 2016, this is what he's being prosecuted for. >> the other piece that on these days, where you sort of try to figure out what it is mean, we what he didn't want us to know about his intimate encounter with stormy daniels. that is what this whole -- he was charged with crimes over a story that we now all know. we know a lot more about it

because of his attorney's cross of her. >> and, mine, look, it's one of those figures you think about in realtime, who would have been impacted by a story like stormy daniels? it's hard not to think of somebody like mike pence, you know, who in realtime was there by his side having the word of donald trump saying that this is it, this is all that's going to come out and donald trump making those promises to his running mate that this is the worst it's going to get, stick with me here for these final weeks. fast forward eight years later, mike pence isn't standing by his side, isn't endorsing him, right, because there are those like stormy daniels and mike pence who have caught the ire of donald trump and have outdone their usefulness to them, whether it be a real quick relationship in 2006 or 2007 or serving as vice president and throwing him off the cliff two weeks before because he didn't make sure that you would stay in office or michael cohen, right, suddenly when it came a point in time where the fbi came in and took his phones from his home, his hotel and suddenly realized

he was no longer of use, suddenly michael cohen is no long ever of use and speaker mike johnson we will see how long his use is to donald trump. this is the world that he operates, the politics of donald trump extends even beyond the political frame. >> is it something that the judge will want to see, a piece of paper that trump edited the attacks on the witnesses? >> he could. i mean, i think that he may take his lead from the district attorney, whether the district attorney at this stage of the case is going to do something about it. so i don't think he will necessarily do it on his own. i don't think he particularly wants that look, but i think if the district attorney raises it, he may ask the defense what was it? >> right. >> what is going on? i don't think he's going to have a sort of factual inquiry, but he could give another sort of warning, i want to make sure that these -- you know, just whatever they're saying cannot

be coordinated with you or your counsel. so, you know, but to me -- i mean, the mirroring, i mean, this is your point that you've -- you have said repeatedly, there's nothing new with donald trump. and what you're seeing charged and then the conduct that he displays is proof of what he's charged in the -- if you talk to robbie kaplan about the e. jean carroll case it's like, oh, he's charged with being abusive and not following the rules and being a bully and, in fact, that's what he's doing in court and that's what he's charged with. it's all the same. >> and, you know, george conway, i'm done asking the question of what's wrong with the republicans, but i guess my question to you is what is the political conversation look like with the country, with joe biden or with other surrogates when you see donald trump is on trial

for killing a story that he thought might repel the man he had chosen to be his running mate and all of his would be running mates are up there violating the gag order for him. everything you need to know about how rotten to the core, misogynistic, anti rule of law the republican party is it's all on display with little matching red outfit ties. >> that's absolutely right. not only are they anti law enforcement, they're anti prosecution, which normally they normally believe in enforcing the law, so they say, and, you know, you have speaker johnson there who i remember reading about how he and his son were accountability partners for themselves, which that's what they called themselves, monitor each other's porn usage and here is speaker johnson defending a man who had -- had a -- fleeing with a porn star and paid her off to cover it up and was unsuccessful. it's absolutely -- absolutely

crazy. i think the reason why they can do this and the reason why they do do this is because the republicans are increasing -- they're narrow casting to a very small segment of the population that actually does not follow this in any way other than to hear propaganda about how this is a witch-hunt and everybody is lying and stormy is lying and it never happened and they don't actually follow along with the trial, they don't actually read newspapers, they just turn on laura ingraham or whoever is just talking about -- you know, spouting out lies on the other network. and so they can do that and they can get away with that. the problem is it looks increasingly bizarre to the people in the middle. >> yeah. i mean, here is -- i'm not going to play it, but here is what mike johnson had to say. many in the press have asked why did you go there. quote, because i'm a former litigator. i'm an attorney. oh, well, that answers it. maybe he can run in and finish the cross of michael cohen. >> and the other thing that --

you know, these attacks, you know, about -- what's going on in court and the judge's daughter is making millions and all this stuff. i've been in court pretty much every day and in the main courtroom and have listened and have watched. there couldn't be more fair proceedings. >> to donald trump. >> correct. judge merchan could not have been fairer to the defense. i wish the american public could see what i got to see every day because it is total ulterior reality to hear what is going on in these sort of mock press conferences by the veep wannabes. >> speaker johnson never walked into the courtroom. he walked into the hallway. >> we were waiting for that because we had alerts that he was coming to the trial and vivek and everyone else walks in and he never actually came into the courtroom to see for himself because he was too busy getting ready for the presser. >> i will give him the last word. he said do you know what what's critical to maintain to keep a republic is you have to have

those people, we're self-governing. the people have to believe we have equal justice and you law. there is a reason that lady justice is depicted with the blindfold, there cannot be two tiers of justice, there can't be two systems, you can't expect political revenge on one political figure using the justice system and give a pass to the other. donald trump literally put on paper a plan to have two tiers of justice, he is before the supreme court arguing for complete immunity. that's the platform that you're behind, speaker johnson. wow. just amazing, right, george? >> yeah, and lady justice keeps her clothes on. >> yeah. george conway, thank you. my thanks to laughlin and vaughan for filling in the gaps that you've left, the massive gaps you left by being stuck in traffic. thank you, andrew weissmann. i'm going to stay out of it. just ahead for us, donald trump may or may not testify in front of a jury of his peers, but he does now have a date to debate joe biden.

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♪♪ donald trump lost two debates to me in 2020, since then he hasn't shown up for debates. now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. well, make my day, pal. i will even do it twice. so let's pick the dates, donald. i hear you're free on wednesdays. epic troll. hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in the new york and what is already shaping up to be an unconventional presidential debate season. so this morning that video was released by president joe biden. you could see for yourself he came out swinging, this trolling of donald trump saying i hear you're free on wednesdays. he challenged trump to two presidential debates while teasing him a bit about his current state as a criminal defendant. joe biden's video was accompanied by a letter that his campaign sent to the commission on presidential debates that outlined that he would not be participating in the debates

they set up. among the biden campaign's reasons for that, they said the commission's proposed debates come too late in the process. that their debates were structured like an entertainment spectacle and not a serious exchange of ideas and that the commission was, quote, unable or unwilling to enforce the rules, referencing trump's talking over president joe biden and moderators in past debates. here is a refresher of what that looked like. >> i'm not here to call out his lies. everybody knows he is a liar. >> but you agree -- joe, you are the liar. >> i want to make sure -- >> graduated last in your class not first in your class. >> i want to make sure -- >> mr. president, can you let him finish, sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. we have a higher deficit with china though than we did before. >> china ate your lunch. >> gentlemen -- >> china ate your lunch, joe. >> kristen, they did it, we changed the poll. >> i your response to that. >> we did not -- >> they -- >> who built the cages, joe? >> let's talk about -- >> who built the cages, joe?

>> do you mean the laptop is now another russia, russia, russia hoax. >> that's exactly what -- that's exactly what we're told. >> this is where he's going. the laptop is russia -- >> gentlemen -- >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why won't you answer that question. >> the question is -- >> radical left -- >> will you shut up, man. >> listen, who is on your list, joe? who is on your list. >> gentlemen, i think we've ended this -- >> whatever you're doing just stop yourself and ask yourself this question, do you miss that guy at all? it's part of why biden wants him out there in our living rooms again, right? but despite that fact is few hours after the president sent the video challenging his 2024 opponent two debates have already been accepted by both campaigns. one on june 27th hosted by cnn in atlanta, another on september 10th hosted by abc news. regarding the timing of these "the new york times" reports this, quote, while some of the details are still being hammered

out the agreement to the two debates reached in a series of social media posts wednesday morning raises the likelihood of the earliest general election debate in modern history. and immediately delivered a jolt of electricity to a campaign that had settled into something of a rut. but it also sets up a unique reality, the american people could soon face, that the current election interference case in new york city likely wrapped up by then, one of the debate participants could be, just saying it's possible, that he could be a convicted criminal by the time the debates commence. all of this happening against the backdrop of republican primary voters last night delivering another warning for donald trump. in nebraska and maryland. nikki haley who dropped out of the presidential race two months ago won about 20% of the vote and in deep red west virginia nikki haley got nearly 10% of all the republican votes. again, two months after she dropped out. that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends.

charlie sykes is here, plus senior opinion writer and columnist for "the boston globe" and msnbc political analyst kim at kin store is back, founding of the site democracy docket mark elias is here, at the table paul rieckhoff is here. charlie sykes, i start with you. your thoughts on this bit by president joe biden. >> you did remind me how little i was looking forward to another debate between these two guys. i mean, i'd rather have root canal surgery. i'm of two minds on this. i actually agreed with david who wrote in the atlantic that joe biden should refuse to debate donald trump because that normalizes him. he wrote that what president biden's spokesman should say is the president does not participate in forums with a person under criminal indictment for his attempt to overthrow the constitution. i agree with that.

on the other hand, i think that from a political point of view there's no way that joe biden could not debate donald trump and so he's gone on the offensive. i'm also a little bit skeptical because a lot of things can happen between now and the dates of these debates and so right now donald trump is all bravado saying he's going to testify in his trial, which he's not going to. said that he will debate twice or three times, which he may or may not do. so we're just going to have to see. we're going to have to see. again, i think the more political point of view in terms of momentum, good move by joe biden, but let's put it this way, none of us are going to be smarter, better and democracy is not going to be strengthened by an hour and a half of watching donald trump go back and forth on that stage. >> so, mark elias, i think charlie sykes is speaking to and for the high mindedness in our

country and for our viewers and for that i appreciate that. i come from the lower road of the dark arts of political campaigns and as a political campaign tactic this was baller. this was, you know, you are in the final days of your first criminal trial over a story that you desperately didn't want anyone to know about between the "access hollywood" tape and election day in 2016. let's see if you want to stand on the stage next to me. i think that trump said yes is not a sign of strength from donald trump, i mean, i want to show you what trump sounds like these days on the stump. >> i've come here from new york where i'm being forced to endure a biden show trial, all done by biden. carried out by -- that's right, all being done by him. >> he's not the donald trump of four years ago, he's not the donald trump of 2016, he's not the donald trump of the 2020 debate that i just played.

i think there is a political imperative on the biden campaign's part of making sure people see that guy. >> yeah, look, i think this is a very good move from the biden campaign standpoint on the politics. i also think, by the way, it's very good from a democracy standpoint. on the politics of it, you know, count me skeptical that donald trump is actually going to show up at these debates. this is a guy who is constantly lying about things he's going to do and doesn't do. he didn't build the paul, he's not going to testify in his criminal trial and though he has said he wants to debate, i think he doesn't want to debate. i think he knows that standing on a stage next to the president of the united states rather than in his -- you know, in his own country club or on a stage with a bunch of sycophants he doesn't perform well. he has been experiencing what it's like in the courtroom to have to play by rules and to have to speak when he's allowed and not speak when he is not allowed and sit and stand and he

doesn't like any of it. when he walks out of that court every day he looks more pathetic and smaller than he ever did before. i think he will find a way out of this commitment to debate, he will lie about why it is he doesn't want to debate. i think on the politics of it it was a smart move on the part of the biden campaign and i'm not at all convinced that trump will do it. on the democracy piece i want to say quickly it is vital for our democracy to have donald trump stand on the stage and answer questions from the media about why he is still committed to election denialism, why his former colleagues are standing criminal trials around the country as part of fake elector schemes, why he's been indicted not just in new york but for racketeering in georgia or election for trying to overthrow a fair and free election in washington, d.c. why he thinks it's appropriate for his lawyers to say that presidents enjoy absolute immunity and should be allowed to assassinate their political opponents. there's a lot of democracy issues at stake in this election

that right now frankly donald trump is not having to address the national mood on. he's able to talk to a very small sliver of the public on. but i think people will be horrified to hear him say this on a much wider stage. >> i mean, kim, let's stay with the substance of what donald trump has provided us in the past when he's debated. this was actually president biden really turned the questioning to his support for the proud boys. let me play this for you. >> are you saying -- >> i'm willing to do anything. i want to see peace. >> do it, sir. >> do it. say it. >> do you want to call them -- what do you want to call them. >> white supremacists. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> i can't believe donald trump will give joe biden a chance to follow up on that question. what the proud boys did when they, quote, stood back and stood by they made t-shirts

announcing that they were and then they stormed the united states capitol ending, you know, centuries-long tradition of a peaceful transfer of power in the united states of america, endangering the life of vice president mike pence who for the first time in american history is not endorsing his former boss, the former president, but that's where we are today. >> it is. and i even remember at the time the normalization of trump that was happening in realtime when i and other journalists were pointing out he just enlisted the proud boys as an army of sorts to stand ready. people thought that i was being hyperbolic at that point but he literally in realtime told us what he would do and then he did it on january 6th. so i am also of mixed minds, much like charlie. i worry about platforming him in a way that allows him just this ability to spew the kind of misinformation which now is not just a part of his message, it's

the entirety of his message. but i think what is happening is joe biden wants to assuage democrats who are fearful that he won't look tough enough against donald trump so they want to put him out there. they saw him at the state of the union looking strong and being the epitome of what they want a president to be and they want to create that juxtaposition. this is not about policy. we are not going to be getting into the agendas of either candidate, donald trump doesn't have an agenda. but what this will be is a slugfest of sorts and i think what the democrats want to do is show that joe biden is a fighter, too. >> joe biden walking around ukraine, joe biden the first american president to land in israel after a terrorist attack there of october 7th, the joe biden of the state of the union address this year. when the moment sort of is on the line there's not an example

in recent history where he has not delivered, and yet what kim is talking about is real, there are democrats that are angsty. i have we have to have a platform about debating trump. i was the first person to stop airing sarah huckabee sanders press conferences. i believe, though, now as a candidate whose verbal decline is so evident, it is essential that people see him. he has declined in his public performances to the degree that people just need to see it for themselves. i can't diagnose him, i can't explain it, maybe he's tired, maybe he's stressed, but people have to see him before they vote in november. >> i think so. i mean, first of all, my head hurts already and i think all of our heads hurt already. we're going to start our summer with this and we're going to end our summer with this. it's going to be the car crash nobody wants to see but everybody is going to watch. also it is a slugfest and we're going to see them step into the

ring and we're going to see their fitness. i think that's what really is going to be on display here. everybody is concerned about their age, there are lots of americans who don't like either one of them and they're going to stand on a stage for an hour and a half or two hours which you know which is kpusing physically, demanding emotionally and unpredictable. we will see how they stand up to that. we had a commander in chief forum at nbc in 2016 where we sized up are they ready for that job and we will see that. i think biden did something smart, if you're going to do it you want to control the tempo. there is a saying in the military don't let the enemy control the tempo. biden hit first, he can cut his mic which is part of this and it's on cnn which is pretty friendly compared to being on fox or somewhere else. biden is trying to grab the mic before trump does and try to drive this narrative through the summer starting on june 27th. >> charlie, i want to come back to you with another sort of flashing political indicator that doesn't always sort of make

its way into the political conversations and that's trump's weakness among republican voters, in closed republican primary contests a whole bunch of people are still voting for someone who isn't on the menu and that's nikki haley. what do you make of the fact that this problem is getting bigger for trump, not smaller? >> well, the fact that it's not going away and the key here is these are closed primaries. you know, in some of the early primaries you could write this off and say that it was democrats or independents who were casting anti-trump votes, but these are republicans. i think what you're seeing is how consistent this is, about one out of five, roughly 17% to 20% of republican voters show up in a noncontested race and say that they're not going to vote for the nominee of their party. and i think that that's a key constituency here. i think that both camps ought to be paying attention to them but i don't see any indication that the trump camp is making any effort whatsoever to reach out to those voters. so this would be something that

i would -- i would think that the biden high command would keep an eye on because in each of those swing states if you can peel off 10, 15, 20 percent of the republican vote in a swing state you will be in pretty good shape. i do think that those voters are going to be decisive. we have talked about this in the past and they are not coming around to donald trump and it's hard to see what's going to happen between now and november that's going to make them think, okay, we didn't vote -- we didn't support him before, but now that he's a convicted felon, maybe we will give him a second look. i don't see that happening. >> marc elias what would you do with that now sizable -- it doesn't have a geographical limit, it doesn't have -- it's happening in closed primaries which is for anyone that doesn't do this in an open primary, you can go and participate in another party's primary, closed primary means you have to be a registered member of that primary to vote in that primary.

these are registered republicans casting protest votes, voting for nikki haley two months after she dropped out. >> yeah, i mean, this is devastatingly bad news for donald trump. the fact is the biden campaign is clearly paying attention to this and is reaching out to these folks, but it is important to emphasize the last point you made. these are not swing voters. these are party faithful voters. these are not people who are registered independents, these are not people who left the republican party because donald trump was president in 2020 -- i'm sorry, from 2017 through january 20th, 2021. they didn't leave the republican party even after january 6th insurrection. these are still registered republicans and about a fifth of them are refusing to vote for donald trump in these primaries. this is -- i mean, this is not just weakness among his base, this is a -- this is a calamity for him and his campaign. the reason why they are not

reaching out to these people is not a strategic decision. they're not reaching out to these people because donald trump is a child. he is a petulant individual. he has decided that he does not like nikki haley and he has contempt for her and h voters and rather than giving his campaign the space to make peace with her and her voters, he continues to antagonize them. so this is not going to get any better for him. no matter how many they hire who are professional operatives, they cannot change donald trump from being who he is. he is an unstable individual who as you point out is in decline. he is bearing a grudge against nikki haley and these voters and come next november they're not going to vote for donald trump. some of them will vote for joe biden, some of them will sit home. but this is, i think, one of the most untold stories of this election right now and i believe it is also not being captured in the public polling we are seeing.

>> also in donald trump's own words what his come up in this trial is this grave concern about what must intersect with this group in some places and that's women. i mean, he was gravely concerned after "access hollywood" came out and this was one of the less dramatic exhibits but the c-span person came and testified and entered into evidence video of donald trump saying, you know, it will be poison if just 5% of women in wisconsin -- you know, and the margins are in the country in which we live-in credibly narrow. the person who knows that everything that marc is saying that everyone is saying is true is donald trump himself. we're going to continue this conversation. no one is going anywhere. we're going to come back to the details of the debate, we're learning who the moderators are, we will share that with you. much more on that with our whole panel. plus after 17 unprecedented history making days in court what the world is seeing and watching and thinking about us. watching the first ever criminal trial of an american

ex-president who allegedly paid to cover up sex with a porn star days before a presidential election. and later our dear friend whoopi goldberg in an inclusive -- not an exclusive interview but a wonderful conversation with her talking about her mom, her brother and where we're heading as a country. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

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and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds at no additional cost. from the company with 99.9% network reliability and advanced cyber security, it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. and it's all from comcast business. charlie, kim, marc and paul are all back with us. kim, let me just bring our viewers this bit of information about the debate. the cnn debate which is the first one in june that president joe biden pitched and donald trump said, okay, i'll do it,

dana bash and jake tapper will moderate that one. we have that on the books. we can pencil it in as the date. i agree with the skeptics who say it may not happen. i wonder what you make of what we gerd for this time. there's so much to worry about. there is the excitement that isn't coded anymore about extremists who aren't an abstract threat but an actual one after storming the united states capitol on january 6, there is the commitment to disinformation, where a billion dollar settlement from fox news and dominion ongoing to smartmatic, post fact, post pence america. what should we be excited about for the cnn debate? what should they be thinking about already? >> the top thing on my mind is that i hope -- and jake and dana are professionals who are very good at this, that they are able to keep this from being the kind

of talk over insult fest that was demonstrated in your clips with some strong rules in place. i think that president biden wouldn't have agreed in it if he wasn't confidence of that so that is good news. keep in mind june that is what i call supreme court hell month, right? we will not only be at the end of donald trump's trial, but there are two cases that are still pending before the supreme court on abortion, not to mention the cases involving his own immunity and more that will be decided between now and then and most of these big cases will be coming out in june. so that will be right there in front of all of us reminding us of one of the most important things that a president does, which is choose supreme court justices. we've seen the importance of that and what that has meant to our nation, our voting rights, our workplace protections, our lgbtq protections and civil rights and more. so i think that will be a big issue, many issues in this

debate, to the extent that they are able to get to actual substance and not just form. >> kim, you know, marc talked about things that the polls miss. another thing that the polls missed ahead of the midterms was the power and potency of the supreme court taking away a right that women and families had enjoyed in america for 50 years. we are talking about the supreme court inserting itself not at the beginning or the middle but near the final act of the presidential conversation. i mean, really the final stretch is the summer heading into the fall. as you're saying, they will be reinserting themselves right into the center, the heart of our political contest is about whether we remain a democracy or whether we turn into something different, more similar to the world's you had a krae world's autocracies. no one knows yet how to measure or how to count how important that is to voters.

>> and we have a little bit of an indication being that every time reproductive rights and abortion access has been on a ballot this he have won. and these cases on the supreme court's docket are hugely important. they will make the difference in whether a woman can get emergency care if she is pregnant, whether she's seeking an abortion or not, in states where it is banned. a federal law is supposed to ensure that, but that could be gutted by the supreme court. it will release a decision on mifepristone, the medical abortion pill, which is used in more than half of cases that could have ripple effects on everything from -- from fertility treatment to birth control. they are huge important issues and those in particular donald trump himself has shown a queasiness as to what he has brought is bringing out in elections nationwide trying to

walk back these policies while those who support him are bent on moving forward with him. >> paul, we've talked a lot about democracy, we talk about it every time on this show about how at a policy level it really is this divergent path toward something moving more toward autocracy, the republican party in terms of their numbers, the largest enablers of autocracy in the world. when it's in the abstract, though, voters are mad about the price of things and they're worried about things that feel more tangible. however, the exception to that is when it's tied to what kim is talking about. when people like josh shapiro who successfully ran for governor in pennsylvania gave his closing speech, it was about in a democracy you do not take rights away, you do not shrink the enterprise or the experiment. governor whitmer also successfully tied democracy to abortion and reproductive health care. what is your sense of the success that's been had and the imperative to tie it to things

that are real and urgent to people in november? >> i think it's hard and i think sometimes the political strategists in the parties overthink it. i think ultimately when i think about this debate i think about the fact that the world is watching and our kids are watching. june 27th is the last day of school here in new york city and i'm trying to think can my kids watch this or is it going to be so disgusting that i encourage them not to watch this part of our democracy. i think ultimately who is watching are the people they're trying to convince. the goal is to win the election. i think marc touched on something that's very important which is that both candidates have some serious weaknesses right now. trump keeps seeing it with these holdouts on nikki haley voters, biden is seeing it with the progressive wing and rfk jr. and people staying home. they're battling less than 10% of the overall electorate and people who don't like either one of them. those are the people they have to convince.

this debate is centered on what might move a couple thousand people in swing states and that's where the debate is going to focus. it's going to come down to who do you trust to be the representative for america to the world. that's where i think biden has a real chance to score some points. >> that's where i think the history of relentlessly negative republican campaigns is littered with things that are unseemly and ugly about our politics, i'm think of lee atwater and others and things that intersect with my life and politics but donald trump is a relentlessly negative person and telling the story of donald trump requires real steel in the spine to tell the relentlessly negative story of what he plans to do with our country, what he plans to do with our justice department, what he's put on paper and plans to do with his political enemies, about being, quote, a dictator on day one. i wonder, charlie, what you think the imperative is for president joe biden to come out

and tell that story. >> well, what i worry about, though, about this entire campaign and about the debates and why i'm skeptical about the debate is, you know, that the challenge that we have in 2024 is not losing sight of the stakes, the magnitude of the stakes and instead being distracted by the show. donald trump is a reality tv show who knows that politics has become a show and not about substance and i worry that sometimes we will get distracted by going through those meaningless rituals. so this is, as paul said, this is very, very difficult. pack in the mid 1980s neal postman wrote a book talking about how we were amusing ourselves to death. in our culture we were becoming more and more trivial. that we were becoming focused on some of the things that didn't necessarily matter. this is a year where we have to focus on what really matters. we have to find a way to focus

on what is actually at stake for the country, for our system, for the rule of law, for the constitution, all of that. and it's easy to imagine us being distracted by a series of reality tv events in which you have two old guys who are beating up on one another. so it's not just what joe biden has to do and obviously, you know, his responsibility, it's great, it's what the rest of us do. it's how the media is going to cover this. it's about telling people what is important rather than simply chasing the latest squirrel of novelty or pretending that somehow that this is quasi normal. and i kind of wonder going through these debates, going through the conventions, are we going to -- you know, are americans going to be lulled into thinking, okay, well, this is kind of fun, we're going to sit back in the barco lounger, eat the popcorn and watch this show. if it's a show donald trump will

always be more entertaining. >> yeah. that's a good point. >> this is a huge challenge for all of us. >> it does require an obama-esque, a biden-esque act to tell the story, to tell the truth but to call on our better angels. rosie o'donnell is in the news today, it's a long "new york times" story about her friendship with michael cohen. she reaches out to him as he's going to prison, she goes and visits him, i didn't know it before and i reached out to her this morning to see if she wanted to come on the air and talk about the friendship. she wrote me back, i have no idea if she's watching or not, she said we need to find a way to welcome any trumpist waking up from their cult coma with love. it feels discordant, telling everyone how much damage trump could do to the country if he has a second term, listen to the national security experts, mark esper and mike pence and the people who won't support him and his supporters who are voting for him once, twice, thinking

about doing it again, in our hands and trusting them not to bite it. how do you do that? >> look, i am -- i am a well-known democrat and i welcome every republican and independent who wants to join the coalition to protect american democracy by voting for joe biden. this is not the time to settle scores, this is not the time to have heady debates between americans. this is a time when democracy is at stake and all hands are welcome in the fight to protect democracy. you know, nicolle, i was thinking about this because you recently had a precious new baby and 20 and 25 years from now they will ask you not what the price of gas was, not what was going on with, you know, some television show or some cultural moment, they will ask you what you did when democracy was at stake. your grandchildren will ask you 50 years from now what did you

do when democracy was a stake. that's a question that all of us will have to answer and we all -- and everyone who is willing to answer that question by saying that they -- that at this moment in time, at this need that they stood up against donald trump. everyone who was part of that will be -- will be celebrated and everyone who was on the other side will be condemned. that i am sure of. so do i welcome republicans into this fold? absolutely. do i hope that more join? absolutely. but i have to say with respect to the debate there is no one who more forcefully and more eloquently can make the point about democracy and the threat we face right now than joe biden. he has done it before in major address after major address, he's been underestimated and i look forward -- if i'm wrong and donald trump shows up, i look forward to him doing it again on cnn. >> marc elias, charlie sykes, kim atkins stohr, thank you for spending time with us on the story that is developing while

we are on the air talking about. paul sticks around a little bit longer. when we come back the disgraced ex-president's criminal trial. what it looks like for people watching us from around the world. a leading correspondent from a top leading news outlet will be our guest after a very short break. don't go anywhere. r guest aftert break. don't go anywhere. and get six months of disney bundle on them! (vo) stream with six months of disney bundle on us. and watch it all on the new samsung galaxy s24+, also on us. only on verizon. one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food, no family dinners, no special treats, not enough energy to play. all around the world, hunger is affecting children's physical and mental health. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition,

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trump attacked cohen's credibility outside the courthouse. donald trump making typically inflammatory statements, he is supposed to be subject to a gag order because he's not supposed to be commenting on the court process in such a way. >> he's called this a sham and he's got his republican allies with him here today in court who have said otherwise saying it's all a ploy to try to keep him inside the courtroom and not on the campaign trail as he vies for the oval office once again. >> the world is watching as the global press covered history in the making, the first ever criminal trial of an ex and possibly future american president. his embarrassing behavior inside and outside the courtroom and the behavior of the republican party that enables him. a new low in their support for the ex-president and presumptive republican nominee. joining us coverage u.s. correspondent for a german news

magazine and website widely is circulated around the world, mark piska. >> did i screw that up again? >> no. perfect. you're getting better >> at least i'm working on it. we first chatted, you came on wednesday because day one and two was pecker, right, one and two. since we've chatted stormy has been there keith davidson has been there and now michael cohen. tell me has interest grown? are you seeing traffic -- tell me how the story is playing. >> the interest has not gone away. i file about three stories a week from court and they're always the top story of the day. they generate a lot of subscriptions, which we like. i don't know why, i can't tell you why our readers really like the story, but it's been fascinating to see how it just goes through the roof. i think it's more than just the show like charlie said earlier

that we shouldn't get caught up in the show, and it was a show, you know, stormy and the cross of michael cohen and all these colorful characters that we've been writing about for years now come to life. i think it's much more than that. like just sitting there every day i realized this trial is about the truth. >> yeah. >> the truth is on trial there because i feel like the court is the last bastion of truth in this country, with the exception of maybe the supreme court. under oath to hear the stories that happened back then when we were covering it and we had no clue, you know, "access hollywood" tape, the debate, the last debate when he brought the -- to the stage and all these things and the prosecution really puts it together like a

jigsaw puzzle with the documents and with everything. it's fascinating as a writer, but it's also horrifying, and like you said, you know, your kids are watching this. it's embarrassing. this is -- this was the leader of the free world, this may again be the leader of the free world and that's, i think, why people are watching this. it's like -- who said it earlier -- a car crash -- >> you can't look away from it, yeah. >> this is it. it doesn't matter i think what the result is. i did one story saying what's the point of all this? politically. you know, even if he gets convicted, even if he gets a jail sentence he is not going to go to jail. so politically he may be elected president again. so that's the big -- that's the big deal for us. europe is -- you know, europe has a lot of problems

strategically, militarily, you know, with ukraine. we haven't been able to sever our umbilical cord from the united states, and without the u.s. we're lost. so what happens next year on january 20th? because he will be unleashed. you know, he tells you what he wants to do. he gave this interview to "time magazine" and then he has all these people now backing him from the heritage foundation, the project 2025. so you know what's going to happen and that's not a good thing for us. >> is there -- i mean, i feel like americans are prudish when it comes to sex and politicians in a way that europeans are more like, eh. you know, it doesn't have always the political gravity that it has here, and i wonder what you make of the sorted nature of what trump himself wanted to keep from the voters. >> you're right, i mean, we've had our deal of sex scandals in

germany, in europe, in italy and in france and spain. so we're not prudish. i don't think it's the sex. >> no, us. i mean us. >> yeah, and we don't really look at that part. i mean, there are all these -- like when stormy testified, she overshared a lot. there was all these unnecessary details like he had, you know, the pert plus and the golden tweezers in his toiletry bag. i don't need to know all this and i don't need to know how they did what they did. i don't think it's the sex part that turns us off, it's the part that came after. the way how they cover it up, how they pay off the women, how they treat the women. she wasn't the only one, you know, karen mcdougal and i'm sure there were many others. and this is -- this is just a mob-like mentality. >> here in our country.

>> yeah, and in the white house he signed the checks in the oval office for michael cohen. >> yeah. >> and to listen to michael cohen, to listen to his voice, to his new york accent, it feels like, you know, sammy the bull testifying against john -- it's this whole environment that makes us wonder, you know, this is who we hitch our wagon to or have to because we don't have a choice. >> it's amazing. i hope we can call you when it's over to see how it all ends. >> absolutely. >> marc and paul, thank you for being at the table and spending time with us today. when we come back a sneak peek at my interview with my dear friend whoopi goldberg on her new book, it's a touching trib tut to her mom and brother, it also includes a warning, though, about the state of our country. we will show you what she said after a short break. we will show you what she said after a short break. about the s. we will show you what she said after a short break. ur country we will show you what she said after a short break. though, abo country. we will show you what she said after a short break. about the s.

we will show you what she said after a short break. though, abo country. we will show you what she said after a short break. e said after a short break. wooooo!

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i had the pleasure and privilege of sitting down recently with my dear friend whoopi goldberg for an extended conversation about her brand-new book, it's called "bits and pieces: my mother, my brother and me." it is a beautiful and heartfelt memoire dedicated to the memory of her mom emma and brother clyde. whoopi's stories about them make it clear that she shaped her into the view into the person s is today. one thing she writes about is how she would have handled living through a trump presidency. here's what she says. there is a thing that just kind of hit me in the gut, that you

were in some ways, even though you're still grieving your mom and your brother, part of you is glad that your mom didn't see trump's presidency. >> no. >> explain that. >> well, look. you know, this is america. this is -- the america i grew up in with all of her flaws made me believe that i could do anything. i grew up in the world when everybody pretty much was all white, you know, and i listen to people and i think you have no idea, and i hear people say, you know, oh, this -- this is so bad. no, no. it's -- it's -- it was bad, and then we made it better because we broke the ceilings. we broke all of the barriers, not all of them, but a whole bunch of them, to get ourselves to here where we didn't have to explain, and when somebody says, as drs. maya angelou says, when

somebody tells you who they are, believe them, and in my mind i think she would not have been able to handle this, nor my brother. we are barely handling it. >> right. >> but my belief is that as much as we like to test ourselves and the see how far we can go, fascism is not something we should be fooling with in this country. >> totally. everyone loses. >> everybody loses, and it's not good for anyone and it's not good for poor folks. it's not good for y'all, because you become slave fodder. it's not a good thing. it's not good for women because you are now being told andtic dated to, and you can't say anything because they will throw you in a jail or whatever. >> watch the full interview, the full conversation that we got to have with whoopi goldberg live right now on youtube. you can find it at

msnbc.com/nicolle. we'll show you more chunks of it on this show. now a quick break and we'll be right back. s show now a quick break and we'll be right back

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>> that was senate intel committee chair mark warner just this afternoon warning that the 2024 election will likely be the most attacked by malicious foreign forces in america's history, not just from the ones we expect like russia and china but from a whole range of countries emboldened by poorly regulated social media companies and accelerating artificial intelligence tools. it is the first of several hearings on election interference that the committee will hold before the election in november as the senate rules committee makes moves of its own. today pushing through three bills that would take action on -- on elections. we keep -- we'll keep an update on that store and we actually previewed for it in "the atlantic." another break. we'll be right back. atlantic." another break. we'll be right back. -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider.

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