katelyn clark. >> tonight her pro career officially begins, bringing in new fans and transforming the league. nbc news. >> clark and her teammates will be in new york city taking on the liberty, if you want to go get tickets soon. i wish you a very good night. you do not want to miss tomorrow night's show, senator mitt romney will join me for a exclusive interview, he is reflecting on his final year in congress and offering his view on how conservatives should approach the 2024 election and beyond. thank you for staying up late with me. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. tomorrow. major testimony. this is the second day of convicted former trump lawyer

michael cohen testifying. i watched him inside the courtroom where cohen was speaking against his former boss just a few feet away. defense started their cross- examination. we have been reporting on that along with our colleagues here. how it has been going. >> asanother pivotal day. >> michael cohen back on the stand. >> trump's former fixer michael cohen taking the anstand. >> it is a whole new game this afternoon. >> this is the moment we have been waiting for. the cross-examination. >> will cohen keep his cool when trump's lawyers begin an intense cross-examination? >> it has been an explosive last hour of testimony. >> it is getting testy. michael cohen is about 45 minutes now into todd blanche's cross-examination. >> donald trump's attorneys attempted to shred the credibility of the star witness. >> that is some of what went

down. prosecutors have you confirmed something new. cohen is their last witness which means they are on track to rest their case here because there will just be this cross- examination i told you about. and then that's it. cohen is very clear today. he continued along the lines that made yesterday such a damaging day for defendant trump. the testimony that says these payments at the heart of the case were made because of trump's campaign. he made the payment to daniels to ensure the story could not come out. they asked if not for the campaign, would you pay the money? in cohen trump said no. prosecutors said at who's direction an on whose behalf did you commit the crime? notice the crime. they are getting this in front of the jury. the idea that cohen was a key part and now admitting this crime with his then client donald trump. and he said on behalf of mr. eh

trump. that's the heart of the case. cohen bolstering the theory it was done for the campaign. meaning there was a business fraud crime of lying about it. then the second campaign crime. that's the theory. i mentioned the cross and we will get to that later in the hour because there is interesting stuff in the cross. but much probably the most e important thing we have seen is what happened yesterday and the morning beginning of today which is how cohen is walking through exactly what they say is this trump crime. cohen also addressed the issue that will come up later in cross. but he addressed it first in a more friendlier afterwhere he retracted the 2018 claims that he had made the payment all on his own. they even got air in the new york times. today he explained it and said he lied then because he was still in the business of trying to protect trump to stay on message to demonstrate

continued loyalty. cohen admitted trump approved st the statement. you can see it. he enapproved it in substance. he did. cohen recounts the conversation he had with trump after the feds searched his office. this was in that 2018 period where things were changing. and he describes how trump told him don't worry. i'm the president. stay tough. you are going to be okay. that is how he recounts there. what you don't hear is donald trump says i got you, i pardon you. i'll take any public blowback for that. because apparently trump didn't make that offer and now never made that move. cohen also discussed the kind of messaging he was receiving. trump also speaking in public at the time testifying trump ru wanted him to basically stay in the fold. to stay loyal. i have you. you're a fine person, don't flip. that is what cohen stays on the stand. he understands trump's remarks to me. at first, cohen did not flip. then he did.

this is where you could see from the morning to the afternoon, both sides of the case in the argument. there was all this damning term and how he went from having this close relationship with donald trump and working for him to the things. the tangible things he went through that made the relationship sour. that is a shift this jury could understand. people have heard about warm relationships. it is sour. but there was also in the cross, a lot of questions about whether that is the whole story. or whether in some way, michael cohen can even be trusted. a he credible? and there were references to what he has done in the media. to his conversations with other key individuals. this whole drama played out. we have our special coverage tonight and our guest is

someone mentioned in in

i see now that my ambition and the intoxication of trump power had much to be with the bad decisions i have made. to our nation, i'm sorry for actively working to hide from you the truth. about mr. trump when you needed it the most. >> michael cohen was testifying in congress. he struck some of the same

notes. he i'm joined by someone who was mentioned in the cross- examination of michael cohen. welcome back. >> thank you ari. >> anything you want to address off top given that your name was cited by trump's lawyers and your dealings with this very investigation that da's office recited? >> first of all, there is a diversion, distraction as a technique even mentioning my name is a distraction. there are two issues that the jury is going to decide in the jury room. i respect whatever decision they come up with. one is was this contribution politically motivated? even if it is just primarily or in part? that makes a crime, the judge will so instruct. there has been no evidence he was worried about melania trump

and there is substantial evidence it was motivated by the campaign so that is not a close call for me. i know there is disagreement on that. the second one is whether the circumstantial facts lead the jury to use its common sense. no, it could never be legal fees in the handwriting of mr. weisselberger. he add up a lot of numbers and donald trump as a sitting president of the united states wrote checks for $35,000, signed from his personal checking account. an that is an issue whether he therefore has responsibility for falsely claiming when you round up all the numbers including the $130,000 of hush money to $420,000, and you divide by 12. there was no possibility that was for legal services. it was reimbursement as rudy giuliani called it. that was the second issue. was there legal expenses and did trump know they were

falsely booked. and he doesn't have to be there to write down the number. he knew that it was falsely booked because he miscalled them legal expenses when he knew perfectly well, you don't take a round number and divide by 12 and weisselberger's confirmed handwrites. whatever the cross does in attacking michael and fellow panelists attacking michael as a liar, he lied for donald trump. no excuses. he said i'm ashamed and i was sitting behind him in that shot. that is what he said to me which convinced me to help. >> you and i spoke about it back in the day. that is the case. that there was encouragement and he ultimately decided to do them anyway. >> so i'm not going to talk about my advice to michael. i have since resigned as his

attorney. but i can certainly tell you on the night the last time we talked was mother's day dinner. sorry everyone. i did take a call from michael and we did talk about that subject. and he acceptly expressed recognition that it is not a great idea in the middle of a trial. especially when there is a gag order. he is not the same as an indicted defendant attacking the jurors but he did recognize and it won't happen again in my opinion. >> stay with me. this is one of the big news night. reverend sharpton is here. joyce vance. you and i have spent time around michael cohen. i'm curious what you think about how up to this point he has remained not only calm, even steven. i was watching him in the cross this afternoon. i went from the courtroom up to here as many of our colleagues

have. but it was the calmest i have seen him. >> i have been impressed how calm he is. maintained because i have known michael a few years. i have talked to him a lot since he had this problem as you know he called me and said i want you to pray with me. >> you'll pray with anyone. >> yeah. i'm supposed to. but, he can be volatile. for him to be as calm as he has been, i think he really is serious about trying to do what he is doing. one of the things that impressed me, he asked me to stay in touch with his son. i do think and i have talked about a lot of people down through the years he is trying to redeem what he feels he did wrong. i'm convinced of that. part of the redemption is he is

not going to do something to undermine. >> how about that? we don't mean it in sort of a furient way. real housewives. or is it house husbands way. but we mean in a legal sense. sometimes like other people in public life with stress and other things, he comes off a different way. and lawrence o'donnell said this was a different michael cohen than he had ever seen. >> i appreciate reverend sharpton at this moment. and elijah cummings said almost the same words. both of them are spiritual leaders and reverend sharpton has been a spiritual leader for me many, many decades. what does it take for a sinner to show contrition? and for that to be authentic? when michael first talked to me about helping him, i called. i would say reverend cummings. but it was elijah cummings.

because i said to michael, the only way you are going to be believed is under oath, live, with republicans and in fact, there was a sign on the wall when he testified in front of representative cummings. liar, liar, pants on fire. can you be contrite, michael? can you show remorse? will you say the words you may recall, i am ashamed. i am sorry. and you have to mean them. that was the beginning of the representation that i tried to give to michael all the way through the night of mother's day dinner two nights ago where i asked him the same question. if it is not from your heart, the jury will not believe you. i think you are seeing the man speak from his heart when he says he shows remorse. >> and joyce, this is where the law becomes personal. because the jury are people. and the witnesses are people. and some things are record evidence and facts. and other things. do i believe this person. and very few people can say

they have been 100% truthful 100% of the time about 100% of everything. but cohen has a different problem. you continue to lie. about trump's involvement. he said yes. and you continue to pressure other people. davidson. who was on the other side of these ndas to lie about the payments. why did you do that? in order to protect trump. explain to us what they are doing because they seem to be drawing a line in the time line. >> i think they are. most importantly, what prosecutors are doing is making sure the jury hears about any blemishes from the prosecution. they don't want those to first come to light with the defense. the government has to convince the jury that even though michael cohen is imperfect. he is now telling the truth. and they have to give the jurors reasons to have

confidence. with some witnesses it is as simple they have a deal. if they are not truthful they are going to prison. that is not the case with michael cohen. so to the point of the conversation, that you are having, it has to be that he is honestly contrite. that he is here to tell the truth. and he did i think a very good job of doing that today. >> i want to play what we learned about this in public all the way back with hannity talking to rudy. >> it is not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> they funneled it through the law firm? >> funnel it through the law firm and the president repaid it. i didn't know. he did. everybody was nervous about this from the very beginning. i wasn't. when i heard cohen's retainer of 35,000. that is how, how he is repairing it with a little

profit and a little margin for paying taxes. >> that is what we learned then. and we put up the receipts now you have courtesy of the trial. >> yeah. i mean look, there was anxiety about this case because of the michael cohen witness situation. but what the prosecutors did which was very, very smart was it started with david pecker. so michael cohen has just become a piece of this and it turns out he has been an excellent witness. he kept his cool. he has done what he needed to do on cross. but the case was expansive. and sort of brought in a way that made it really about more than that. and they had the documents and the people saying that this was campaign money. that this was a donation. >> what did you think as well as the whole exchange regarding this other lawyer costello? whatever he was up to? what if anything do you think the jury will make of that? it definitely seemed to make the people in trump's orbit

look bad. >> very odd because i was there the day he came in and volunteered after the prosecution was finished with the grand jury. and he came in and said he wanted to testify before the grand jury. and the prosecutor team said yes and i had to come up with washington. i could use the yiddish word schlep up from washington. and i did. i sat next to the grand jury room. and we waited for the testimony to be over. and when it was over, the grand jury said they were not interested in hearing the rebuttal. that is how relevant having a lawyer associated with rudy giuliani who agreed to the second half of this case already. oops, he told the truth to hannity. it was reimbursements. and everybody knows it except maybe the cross-examer trying

to push with mr. trump says. that is really my answer. it was innocent for him to go back and rebut this individual with something that didn't ring true. no need for michael. >> the other thing that has come up is how much michael speaks out. this was even up leading into the start of the trial. >> we have all been hoping that merrick garland would actually do something and start locking these people up. that somebody would finally hold trump to task. no matter what happens. unless trump is exonerated. he is going to of course scream partisan, partisan, partisan. witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. nothing is new when it comes to donald trump. it is just a regurgitation. >> i will give you my reporting and you give us your tape. but they were trying to pull

together these different strands and we have more on this later in the hour. to go at him. and they said why do you do this, michael? you don't know what kind of answer you will get. and sometimes the overcoached answer isn't the best one. and you know what he said, rev? he said partly to vent. partly because i can't sleep. and partly just these are thoughts i have and i'm sharing them. now i'm not saying it is a perfect answer. a lot of people in the trial have a need to vent and they find other forums but it was interesting because it felt true is. so that was what we saw as the day went on. was sort of mining the depths of mr. cohen's experience and the jury is going to look at that and decide can they relate to that or not? do they think he is fundamentally now telling the truth or not? >> no. and you know it brings to mind the conversations i have with

michael. he never tried to get around that he was involved in something wrong. and i would say you know, as a minister you try to say you are not that bad. he says what i did was shameful, rev. and i think his family, he told me was the ones who said how long are you going to go along with this. when your wife and kid is saying to you, who are you? it makes you say you know what? just put it out there. that is how i have been. and i was not surprised. it was like he wasn't making excuses for him being a participant in this kind of stuff. and the way he is trying ore deem himself is by being very open. >> the way you are putting it in a second. the way you are putting it makes me think of the old lyric. i'm trying to write these wrongs. but funny how the wrongs help me write this song.

and this could be his swan song wrongs and all. you get the last word and you can include a lyric or not. it's your choice. >> no lyric. but i hate to do anything beyond what the reverend just said because it is perfect. let me just say michael cohen for good or bad can't fake it. he is who he is. he is a man in pain. he is a man filled with anger. anger toward what trump did to him. anger toward what trump is doing to the country in his opinion. but he can't fake it. with me, i recognized right away this is a very flawed human being just as i sam. just as the reverend teaches his parishioners we are all flawed. he is authentic in his contrition. that is why this jury will believe him and why the cross- examination liar liar liar pants on fire as jim jordan put on the wall behind him is a distraction. it is about whether he is being authentic. >> it is interesting. a lot of points have been

raised. i didn't know we were going to get this deep. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> we did know that. >> that is more predictable. joyce stays because we got you on a rebuttal to an interesting couple of points we have coming up including an experienced defense lawyer. the rest of the panel, thanks so much. thanks for putting up with me. you get the good guests, too too. we have more. we will look at the politics of the maga republicans showing up. but fist, we have just been talking about all the good points cohen made and how he came across on the stand. there is always what i was an eyewitness to in court. a back and forth with swearing and expletives and excitement and innuendo and a lot of objections. we have all of that coming up. stay with us. coming up. stay with us.

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unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. now hurting defendant trump. but today, the defense lawyers got their turn. they began an effort to blunt cohen's testimony. undercut his testimony. so far, cohen kept his composure. if prosecutors fail to convict trump, it would likely turn on this cross-examination of cohen today. and thursday. because he is not a perfect

witness. and this is the defense's chance to not just talk about reasonable doubt. but to raise the doubt ins the jury's mind about this star witness and coconspirator. the defense questioned, suggested many different doubts. is cohen's story the whole truth? did he have a deranged relationship with donald trump who he said he was once obsessed with. at one point the lawyer asked and cohen largely acknowledged himself as a cult follower. here is another question the lawyers are getting at. is michael cohen so bitter, even understandably bitter that his claims have become unreliable? can he be trusted, the lawyers asked this afternoon, if cohen admits publicly that his goal is to see trump convicted?

in this case? this was just within the last few hours, sure. there is another question. does cohen still lie to investigators because he has done that before and since he is making money off the trump relationship and this very trial, can his testimony be trusted? and then one of the more damages lines of questioning today, why should the jury trust michael cohen's fidelity to this trial and its rules in a fair process if he wouldn't honor basic requests from prosecutor to stop doing the tv and the tiktok and the social media where he would attack trump even up through and during this very trial? now as journalists we welcome all the people. but, legally. i have to tell you, that is a fair question. and the judge has rebuked cohen through his lawyers for all of this public statements. now, none of these questions is some kind of deal breaker but

together, the defense lawyers are trying to cut and diminish and liquidate the credibility that cohen has in the story he told to the friendlier audience. and their more linear questions about how he went from loyalist to this star witness. now remember, the jury is not made of highly informed news and politics junkies. they are mostly hearing details about cohen's evolution that are new to them and the defense harped on cohen's shift as if it were fundamentally suspicious. they suggested through the questioning today and we will see what they do thursday, that he is a person who will maybe say anything. to anybody. depending on his own personal interest that day. and the government can't possibly hang a case on a witness like to prove a defendant's intent about schemes that cohen helped pull

off. >> i know mr. trump. >> donald cares for no one or anything other than himself. >> i'm very loyal and dedicated to mr. trump. i think he will be a great president. >> i'm going to jail because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment. >> naloxone is a back and forth we have followed. for the jury it is pretty new. so they are hearing two competing versions of the same story. one is of course this guy shifted. who wouldn't? look what we went through and then went to prison. now he has every reason to tell the truth. but the other story is this guy might have gone to prison for his own reasons. and look at how he is acting not then and not after the break. leading up to the trial. look how he is acting in the

last few weeks. some of this evidence is not as important as the secret tapes. but it was notable. and, inside the courtroom today, i definitely saw jurors who were watching closely as many of them saw how cohen's podcast arm sells this tee shirt you see on the screen. i want to be clear. this shirt was shown today. admitted to evidence to the jury, this is a person who didn't just have an experience with trump or anger with trump. but is looking at what many people still see as the presumed innocent former president of the united states, just stuck behind bars there. imagined incarceration. other items were also admitted to evidence. the lawyer asked cohen about what you are seeing here. i want to be clear, this was referenced. they didn't play this exact

video in court. we pulled it for you. michael cohen wearing that same jail trump shirt and he did it during the trial on one of his internet live streams so as with stormy daniels, the lawyers are trying to paint this witness as somehow so vindictive and bent on revenge that maybe you can't take him at his word. some of the questions floated theories that don't undercut cohen. they asked how he wanted out of prison early. i can tell you most people want out. but his flip occurred before he went to federal prison. so that line of questioning doesn't really get you anywhere. and other observers found a lot of this lacking at the lines out of attack seem to be all over the place. noting how cohen seemed to be keeping his cool. today was not a disaster for michael cohen or the prosecution. but i would tell you from

observing it, it wasn't good either for them. and if this is all fairly new, hearing questions about cohen lying and admitting lies and agitating for and against trump to extreme degrees if you are a juror hearing all that for the first time and how he is hawking this trump jump suit merchandise. that wouldn't be great for any witness let alone the star witness. we are following this trial together. if later, they fail to convict, acquittal on hung jury, you won't be that surprised about the possible reasons why. i'm not saying they exploded the case but today was one of those days where you could see reasonable doubt being built. none of this was a knock-out. but it can give the jurors the examples, the visuals, things you can remember, the tee

shirt. to support reasonable doubt. especially if some jurors already had some. my point is not whether that is good or bad news. that would depend on what you think is fair. my point is that is part of what is happening in this trial. now how will trump attorneys continue their cross exam of this calm version of michael cohen? we have a seasoned defense attorney who represented trump in the second impeachment and you can see him right there. he also represented the trump organization in a fraud case. william jay brennan is back with us. take a look. >> i was interested in your special coverage. you had a guest on who was very bullish on the defense. and said michael cohen will get destroyed on cross-examination. >> i walked through some of what they tried to do today.

your thoughts? >> well good evening. thanks for having me. it is really complicated because when i listen to your last panel, representative cummings was a giant respected by both sides of the aisle. reverend sharpton said wonderful things about mr. cohen. the thing is the jury won't hear that. the jury will hear that there is just lie after lie after lie. then a redemption and more lies. and that it is being done at the behest of trump falls flat. some of the crimes he pled guilty to, lying to the irs, the bankruptcy court. the things related have nothing to do with trump or the trump organization. so you raised an interesting

hypothetical. what if the jury thinks this guy would have wound up in prison anyway? i don't see any other logical deduction that is possible. and, you know, this guy really, it is one thing to have a witness that lies. but this guy is like olympic gold medal winner and it is a lot to work and. when the jury sees that. and judge instructs him and he will. on this charge which basically says if you think he lied on one thing, you can assume, you can find that he lied on everything. when you package that like the daily double, with the merchandise, the tee shirts. the books. he is shopping a reality show as we fix called the fixer. when juries are smart, they get it. it is a lot of common sense. a lot of common life experience. when they see a witness, a polluted source like this, that

not only is a liar, but he has skin in the game, he is making money off of the defendant. if the defendant is convicted, he is likely to make more money. i just don't see how they could give his testimony the ring of truth. >> from a defense perspective, what did you think they were trying to show with the tee shirts and the monetizing? >> just that. you want a witness to say it is a bank robbery. the other guys that rob the bank. they drove a gray sedan. the weather was cloudy. 20 feet away. and that's it by the way, 2799, you get to buy my donald trump and jail tee shirt. the optics are horrific. the prosecution did the best job they could to try to get ahead of it. but it is just a lot to get ahead of. having said that, i have no idea what is going to happen with this trial but i spent a lopping time in that very courtroom with this very judge

and some of the prosecutors. the jury pool is from the island of manhattan. and that means something. it is not a friendly forum for this defendant. you take this case and put it in pike county, pennsylvania, you got a whole different slew of possibilities. so, who knows what is going to happen. but there is no getting around this. >> forum shopping is not allowed in a criminal trial. you go where the time is. >> where the case landed, for venue purposes, it is like a roulette wheel. it landed in the island of manhattan because that is where it had to land. >> it is like saying if harvey weinstein were tried in 1850, he would be a model husband. >> what i'm saying to you is that where cases are tried, and you don't pick them out of a hat. it had to be manhattan. i'm telling you from personal experience, having tried a trump related case in that

courtroom with this judge and this prosecution team. most of it. with that particular jury pool, not a great forum for the defense. he has that working again him. >> people don't complain about the refs when they are winning. i'm curious what you thought about the back and forth that didn't quite get there. didn't establish much today. but what you think the lawyers are trying to do. weren't you instructed not to talk? and he resisted saying they had conversations but he never admitted that those were the questions. that if he won't honor the da's request and keeps going online, et cetera, that infers something negative. against a defendant who, different example. but the defendant violated the gag order several times. i don't think you can say much about their credibility just from them being vocal. but as a defense strategy, what did you think of that? because blanche spent a

considerable amount of time on that. >> well, blanche is a pro. and i have seen a lot of reporting critiquing him. it is like the sports commenters. sit in your chair and let the quarterbacks do their job. he is doing what he has to do. >> specifically, what is he getting at saying the da told you to be quiet. >> and he is getting that this witness does what he wants to do. he flouts the instructions of the court and the prosecutors and this is a guy who just, michael cohen is all about michael cohen. and it is going to be a tough sell if he hinge everything on michael cohen. he is a tough witness to believe. >> now bill, i'm running over on time. but i have a more light hearted question for you. are you considering getting one

of the tee shirts there? >> i don't know if they have my size! i'll have to look. >> bill, as i mentioned. rachel maddow herself watched your interview last night. so that has to mean something. it means something to us. i appreciate your perspective as we try to make sense of it ill. they will rest when the cross-examination ends. as for what you just heard, that is not the only take. joyce vance with her analysis to mr. brennan on the other side. brennan on the other side.

our trial coverage continues. we looked at some of the damning statements michael cohen made and we heard from a former trump defense attorney about how the cross-examination is going. now joyce vance is back. for the response of what you heard from bill. >> if the prosecution is not a little bit unhappy with their witness being cross-examined then the defense lawyers are not doing their job. this is their opportunity to go at the witness and ask the when did you beat your wife style question. theoretically, they should be scoring some points. and bill did a great job of making the case for this as effective cross-examination but i don't agree.

i saw nothing here that did lasting damage to michael cohen who i think has held up far better than expected. >> what do you think blanche was doing with questions he knew almost certainly would face objection? his opening question was mr. cohen, you called me a little blank. expletive. we don't do that on the news but the jury heard it and it was overruled. >> there was a side bar after that question. we don't know for certain what happened because i haven't seen the transcript but i suspect the judge was not happy with todd for making it person off the bat. and it was a real miscalculation that did not get under michael cohen's skin. >> and your thoughts on the merchandise and all that. >> that could have been more effective than it was. and look, this was the first

day of cross-examination. tomorrow is a day off. they will recalibrate and come back with a more refined sort of approach on thursday. but the argument there is a good one. saying to michael cohen, you hate trump, you hate everything that is trump. and the prosecution's response when they get to close and they will redirect cohen after cross- examination. as a prosecutioner you survived the defense knowing your time is coming to make everything better and they will make a very simple point. the prosecution did not select michael cohen to be their key witness in this case. donald trump did. michael cohen's character is who donald trump wanted to represent him personally. >> it is interesting. in some sense, talk about the bomb shells. cohen has delivered on those and put context on the bad receipts but again as i mentioned, if people want to

understand where this is going, at least questions about cohen. there is redirect closing and context. still ahead, if you are looking for a vice president, speaking of the house making his first cameo at the trial today. i'll be anchoring from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. as well. as we get to the politics of it all. stay with us. it all. stay with us.

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we are doing our special trial coverage. we have more for you. a special edition of the beat in the upcoming hour. we turn to something that is unusual and probably shouldn't be normalized. donald trump taking his own vep stake search and demanding they pay fealty with a visit to the trial itself. coming to defend the defendant. the array of gop figures and hopefuls surrounding the walk in and the very back left corner, you can see indicted trump lawyer boris epstein. and a whole lot morement we will talk about it. also in our next hour of

this special coverage, a look into election part of the crime which is another piece of this that the jury may have questions about. we know they met. we know there is c conflictingtestimony but was it about the campaign? that's next. about the campaign? that's next.

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welcome to our special trump trial coverage. joy reid is off tonight. i'm ari melber, and we're covering the law and testimony. and i can also tell you from reporting inside the courtroom today and reporting at the courthouse where you see what we were discussing with some of our colleagues in that building behind me and the surrounding area there were not just jurors, lawyers and reporters as usual. there were also top republican politicians even more than other days. not just trump's defeated primary opponents now seeking a job, there's one, but also the highest ranking in the federal

government, speaker mike johnson there in the middle. embracing criminal defendant trump in this usual show of partisanship in the middle of a felony trial. it's an embrace that actually echoes a loyalist term witness michael cohen himself, and that was one of the themes in today's testimony. if this were a movie and they brought in all the other famous top national republicans to physically be at the trial, you'd say come on, they don't all gather in the new york courtroom, but they did. and they heard some of them who were present for it cohen say he used to lie for his then because boss trump because he was knee-deep. not the kind of thing most candidates want their political peers to revisit and hear in person. cohen confirming trump directed the payments, which was a key moment in this consequential day. >> it's round 2 in lower manhattan. the prosecution's star witness,

michael cohen, he's back on the stand. >> he approved it. that's the potentially damning testimony of donald trump's former fixer, michael cohen. >> cohen described the fallout after the fbi raids back in 2018. >> michael cohen has testified he is a liar, admitting he lied to congress, to the government, to the public. >> cohen is facing cross-examination. it is sometimes very testy. it's sometimes very flat. >> you're not hearing what you usually get from a defense lawyer, which is a clear, telegraphed themes to a jury. >> there was a key point that actually hung over trump's political tourists if you want to call them that today. the republicans and would-be running mates auditioning at the new york criminal court this week here, it is a strange place for stakes. but think about it like this they went and made this trip many of them taking time away

from their government duties and other obligations to come all the way to new york and do this photo-op and they hear cohen and other witnesses living the other side of the thing these people want, which is to be tapped or promoted by trump. so they actually inadvertently perhaps witness the fate of so many aides and people who have broken with trump in and out of the courtroom and other observers and chris hayes, our colleague, discussed this very reality and contrast today. you could end up a witness, you could end up a defendant like trump, you could end up convicted as some of these people are. these are just the lawyers let alone all the other officials. and so people competing to be his running mate appear to be in denial about how that goes, about how it went for mike pence, not only politically ruined in the party because he was only through january 5th but then targeted for assassination and hanging on january 6th by a mob incited by trump.

the courthouse veep stakes say they want that job, they want to be pence or michael cohen. and there's republicans like j.d. vance and rick scott, conservative congressman dawnles seen there, speaker johnson who is the party leader or perhaps follower in this incarnation of the republican party. and that's the photo you see. these individuals feeling like they had to do this, pass this litmus test or they want to do it because it's not enough to defend trump in public or say he's innocent, which you're allowed to say. but they actually had to show up within the criminal trial, and then they waited on a legal process with their talking points today. >> i wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. >> where's the crime? there is no crime. >> this is a sham. this is not the united states of america. this is some third rate banana

republic. >> banana republic or bananas? you decide. especially spot the departure of speaker johnson as he's nodding along and doing his thing. but the point here isn't whether outside observers are critical of johnson, meaning someone else's view. our job is to remind you of the facts available and here's johnson as recently as 2015, which is before trump had more power. he then before other things were exposed, even then had the view trump lacked the character and moral center needed for the white house. i'm afraid he would break more things than he fixed because he's a hot head by nature and that's a dangerous trait. so we know where johnson was at when he didn't have to say something opposite for political or other self-interested reasons. "the times" reports the republicans also have told on themselves how has trump changed

the gop, his criminal trial guest list tells the tale. again, this is not just normal politics. this is extreme. and you can see the shift with your own eyes. remember the tape alone and not everything else alleged and documented in this trial -- the tape alone back then had republicans saying that was too much. >> house speaker paul ryan released this statement canceling trump's event. i'm psychoenned by what i heard today. senator john mccain pulled his endorsements. >> mitch mcconnell called trump's comments repug independent and unacceptable. mitt romney calling his comments vile. >> that's what they said then. that tape and that conduct is at the heart of this trial not because the tape itself was illegal but because it was bad enough politically they went to these extremes allegedly to do

all these other things to stop the bleeding. remember conservative media was in panic mode but many were reading and discussing the facts in a way they don't often do today if it involves donald trump. back then even in places you might have gotten used to getting in trouble, places that had to pay out for defamation and lies, even in some of those places, people on the right were not yet in the habit of saying the sky is red if it helped donald trump. they said what they heard was bad. >> the trump campaign is in full damage control mode following a troubling story broken by "the washington post" today. the sheer entitlement he exhibits. >> that suggests that he feels that, you know, he is entitled to take what he wants. >> i always love that apology. if i've offended anyone, then i

apologize. that's not an actual apology. >> i think that last night's apology was not heartfelt. i don't think that he really meant it. >> that is the contrast to what many of the same outlets, same types of people are saying amidst the trial. it's a big contrast, and, again, it's not to say everyone has to agree on everything and doesn't pertain to the fact that legally he's presumed innocent, but a trial of this defendant who insisted on running again and managed to capture the nomination is now a kind of a new low for some figures of the republican party. not because others disagree with him as i'm being careful to emphasize, it's because it's again putting a spotlight on the facts that they knew better, that they oppose this, and the only thing that's changed is a craven pursuit of power and a desire to work for donald trump, which if you attend this trial is a thing you might question

whether that's even in your self-interest. as we look at all this from a political lens, we move beyond the lawyers. we have a fox expert brian stelter and obama veteran when we're back next. d obama veterann we're back next. after advil: let's dive in! but...what about your back? it's fineeeeeeee! [splash] before advil: advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action.

a democratic strategist said, you know, why are they all there defending his affair with a porn star. is that what you're doing? >> no, not at all, martha. look, i was there to support a

friend. >> here we are. we just did a break down of the veep stakes moving to the criminal courthouse in new york, and i'm joined by vanity affair special correspondent brian stelter, author of the book "network of lies" a specialty in the media aspect we looked at on the right as well as republicans. starting on the politics, jay, i was careful to mention that, of course, people can debate this stuff, but one of the things the trial is doing is not only putting heat on trump himself as a defendant, but it draws attention to how many of these people said in their own adult lives, j.d. vance, speaker johnson and others, that they oppose trump for exactly the type of reasons that are on display in the trial. >> yeah, but those comments were made before the republican party became the cultive personality that it now is.

i mean the reality is if you think of it historically the republican party has always been a sing issue party. it started out as an anti-communist party and an aept war on terrorism party and now a single cause is donald trump, the person of donald trump. and the republican party has been on this path for quite some time. >> brian, i saw as i mentioned to viewers because i was covering it today, i was down there as many of our colleagues have been and we've been rotating too inside the courtroom. i saw vivek walking around and making it a media campaign appearance. here's what he said. >> i've been there in person. it's one of the most depressing places i've in been in life but it's fitting. it's straight out of a kofka

novel. >> straight out of kofka, straight out of compton, straight out of the p party. your thoughts. >> i can't wait see the actual real life movie of this trial because today was a day of actual drama. i think republicans showing up to support trump is in some ways the interesting thing that happened today. where were they the last three weeks? where were trump's friends? none of his friends showed up until this week and now all of a sudden they're all popping up whether it's for the veep stakes or whether he's pressuring to be there, but it is so revealing and so sad about the state of the republican party they're all belatedly showing. did you see what lisa murkowski said today, one of establishment republican senator, she was asked why aren't you going to new york city to be at the trial. and she said don't we have something better to do around than watch stupid boring trials?

and the reality is, ari, no, the gop lawmakers have nothing better to do than sit around with talking points from fox. >> it's not just they have literally nothing in the literal sense. typically when you campaign you go places as both of you know to draw attention to that very place, you might go to an auto plant to draw attention to that, you go to a school to talk about education. brian, they're here because they cleary feel they owe trump that, the speaker has to stay in his good graces. he's holding onto a narrow boat there. the veep stakes is trying to get a job, but why attract attention to the trial? >> right. they feel pressure not just from trump but the pro-trump media, and this is an under-appreciated aspect of this. at the outset of the trial the far-right media tried to ignore the trial, tried to down-play

it. obviously i think what happened is the likes of msnbc, we're taking this seriously, they knew it was a big news story. those far-right outlets they started to show up, some of the fox anchors are showing up in the courtroom. there's been this belated realization they can't just pretend this is not going on. >> it's a little awkward, right, because i don't want to make it about us because we did look at the media echo chamber because i will tell you seated in the trial today there's plenty of media there from a media host to a 7:00 p.m. host from fox was there. to your point so it's interesting. what do you think about the fact in politics sometimes as brian said the first thing is if it's a bad story line you hope it goes away. you hope not to have to deal with it. >> you cover your eyes. >> right. but if it's unavoidable, then you deal with it, and that might reflect if brian is correct a partial failure on the maga media side. >> yeah, i agree, but i think

the conventional political wisdom does not apply here. donald trump psychology applies here. what happened in the first three weeks of it trial is donald trump sat in the courtroom and he very much was not in control. he was being mocked as an old man, he was falling asleep. he was sitting there raging as witness after witness was testifying against him. he was a man not in control. so all these republicans showing up, he controls them. he has power over them. it bucks him up psychologically to know that, hey, i don't control this court but i sure as hell control j.d. vance. i sure as hell control vivek, i sure as hell control fox news. he needs that control psychologically. >> now it's getting deep, chai, because it's pinocchio needs

gipeto. >> j.d. vance needs someone to tell him what to think and what to do. he needs direction, he needs guidance. >> if he tried to write a sequel his nose would be growing even further to take the obvious pain off the analogy. brian, j.d. vance was mentioned. here he was in court along with others outside of court. take a look. >> the judge inside his daughter is making millions of dollars running against donald trump, raising money for donald trump's political opponents. >> the judge's own daughter is making millions of dollars doing online fund-raising for democrats. >> the judge's daughter is a political operative and raises money for democrats. >> now, here's the gipetto of it

all, i don't mind overextending an analogy, but thestris was from a defendant who was held in contempt, which is not nothing, over the very words we just played. after being held in contempt he did partially back down by not reposting that. he kind of pulled it back during the trial. defendant trump held in contempt for those scurrilous attacks on a family member of a judge. i can tell you other defendants would be in jail at rikers for that. so gipetto gets the wooden senators to come and repeat the same points he's restricted from saying. >> yes, he's experimenting trying to figure out how much he can get away with as the trial rolls on. we should not lose sight of what an aberration this is in american history. lawmakers used to know better. they used to keep their mouth shut. the house speaker is turning the

republican party against the federal and state legal systems that are foundational to the government and a cornerstone of democracy. but here's the problem, here's the problem. one of those fox personalities you showed earlier in the hour, they're on the air saying this is a show trial that violates the rule of law. so they're taking all the rules that matter and flipping them around in the reverse and saying the opposite is true. we have to recognize that mere world is very much a part of this trial. >> yeah, and i want to be -- i appreciate the points you raise, and i want to be as fair as possible, chai. members of the press, critics, observers have every right to question the government and the justice system, and those can be healthy debates. we had all kinds of debates about how it works and what's fair or not, right? i think they should hopefully happen through evidence of facts, but that can happen. there's something different brian also alluded to, which is members of the government. the a.p. headline saying this is the speaker of the house, members of the government without evidence undermining the

very government they're a part of, chai. and if they do that with the rule of law, and they do that with trials, and they do that with, oh, the fbi is bad if it searches your friend's home, it searches mar-a-lago, and then tay do it with elections, right, we're seeing the autocratic play book where this becomes normalized and everyone says, oh, being a member of the republican party or a coconservative now it's turning against the government and undermining all the basic premises, which of course long-term will also hurt them. chai, i give you that big thought on the autocratic problem along with a chaser of mitch mcconnell assuring everyone how this would work out. this is from '16. >> donald trump is not going to think -- not going to change what i think. he's not going to change the platform of the republican party, the views of the republican party. i think we're much more likely to change him because if he is president he's going to have to

deal within the sort of right of center world, which is where most of us are. >> chai. >> wow, nothing in that statement about mitch mcconnell is remotely came true. all the opposite occurred. donald trump formed the party in his own image, and that's another reason why i think all these republicans are there. they're there to bask in trump's celebrity as much as anything else. the one hopeful thing i will say about this election when it's over and trump is defeated, trump and this maga movement, i can't see it going on because nobody else has this cultive personality, nobody else would be able to command this kind of following. do you think ron desant would have people show up at his hush money trial, absolutely not. it's really only trump with his celebrity, his very specific and unique appeal that is what we see here. >> brian?

>> i'm just trying to imagine if any democrats are going to show up at the trial of bob menendez, the senator, or the trial of joe biden's son, hunter, both of which are going to happen in the next few weeks, and we're not going to see any of this, and that tells you everything you need to know about the difference of these two parties in 2024. >> fairly put. brian and chai, thank you so much for walking through this different lane as we look at the trial today. appreciate it. later on tonight what the new testimony might reveal about pinning trump's motive and why that could help deal with any reasonable doubt if the jury actually feels his motive has been proven. and e-mail, speaking in code. witnesses discussing something that trump has benefitted from for a long time, a scheming guilty but effective style of avoiding evidence. coming up we have a manhattan d.a. veteran on the bragg strategy. >> less than two weeks before the presidential election michael cohen wired $130,000 to

stormy daniels' lawyer. that payment was to hide damaging information from the voting public. the scheme violated new york election law. heme violated new k election law

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and again today, although we don't have the cameras to show you. "the new york times" magazine writer is here along with d.a. catherine christian. catherine, we're near the end. a thinning top of the nine we are going to rest, final witness. that was confirmed today. where do you think they land where when're mid-cross and i've reported they've got some jabs on cohen but no knock outs. >> no knock outs yet. they have tomorrow off. mr. blanche can speak to his two attorneys and maybe they can sort of tell him about asking more leading questions. the prosecution cannot speak to michael cohen on direct. his lawyer can, so maybe his lawyer will say don't say it sounds like something i would say, just say i said it. >> he did a lot of, oh, did you

say this? he said probably sounds like something i would say, and then blanche would say i'm not asking you if it sounds like it. yes or no, do you have any doubts it sounds like that, and they would skirmish like that. >> you don't know what a jury focuses on. the jury were prepped for him and just every witness basically, you know, tarred and feathered michael cohen. she did a very etive direct examination, so they were prepared under it. there's no shock about that. but i think on thursday he will be more yes, no like he was on direct. you know, yes, ma'am. >> they raise a bunch of different reasons you can raise doubt about whether cohen is telling the whole truth now. and we heard tonight from a former trump defense lawyer from

the impeachment who spoke to that. this was moments ago here. take a listen. >> when they see a witness, a polluted source like this that not only is a liar but he has skin in the game, he's making money off the defendant, if the defendant's convicted he's likely to make more money, i just don't see how they can give his testimony the ring -- say it as the ring of truth. >> the basic point is if he has motive or self-interest it undermines his credibility. your response? >> bias, hostility, interest, prior inconsistent statements. the defense is hoping one or two jurors believe that but the prosecution is hoping look how he's been corroborated. look how donald trump's mouth he's detailed he looks at the invoices for the decorators, he knows about paper clips. is it really serious that he did not know when allen and mr.

cohen were doing. now, also the problem is they might be asking the jurors where's allen weisselberg. so you never know what the jurors are thinking. and the defense is hoping obviously they want an acquittal. i don't think that will happen, but they will be happy if they get a hung jury. >> emily, your thoughts on where it all lands with cohen so far. >> i mean those are great points. one thing i really notice is the contrast between cohen's demeanor and testimony this time around versus the civil trial involving trump and the trump organization where he was all over the place, it was very messy. he seems more coherent, and i agree that the prosecutors didn't land a really serious blow, and i think part of the reason for that was for the cross-examination didn't tell a clean story. it wasn't clearly connected as a narrative. so, yes, it seems like michael cohen could be motivated in part by revenge. i mean that's the title of his

book. but whether you could completely discredit him, that's a whole different question. the idea you have a witness who lied to cover up the bad acts of the defendant, went to jail, and now is willing to implicate the person he was protecting before, that's it's own kind of story that could add up to the jury. >> yeah, and i mention this in our coverage here, catherine is absolutely right about cautioning against too much. i'm not projecting, but i watched the jury today. i was kind of, you know -- lawyer's back is to us, so i can't see him much but you can hear him or see the monitor of his face. i'm watching cohen haz who's really a respondent version of himself and the jury was rapt. looking at blanche, looking at cohen, back and forth. and you can see the valence as compared to other days was higher, emily. and this idea not that cohen can't be trusted for one reason

but that he can't be trusted for five-plus reasons and that he was off the handle during the trial. i could imagine some jurors find that to be concerning. >> right. like we were saying, like catherine was saying, you never know what the jury is thinking, but if blanche can really get it all the to hang together, how much is this going to matter given all the corroborating evidence, given that cohen is really showing up because he has to fill in part of the story rather than he is the person conveying key information for the prosecution to make its case. so it's important for the defense to beat him up, but he doesn't have to be the whole trial here. he doesn't have to prove everything. there isn't much that's actually hinging on the facts that he's testifying to. >> catherine, how much more of the cross would you expect to get to what emily referred to,

which is do you have a different theory of the case? do you have a different story about cohen? >> he told the judge he'd be going to the end of day thursday. that means he's going to spend all day with michael cohen and he should be hitting. the cross may just be you're a liar, you're a liar and say to jury you can't believe him, you're obsessed with revenge, you know, you wear t-shirts with trump in bars -- behind bars. so going through that. i think on the direct just a little bit the prosecution should have owned a little bit of the hatred of donald trump because bring that out on direct as opposed to coming out on cross, it's a good reason why he would hate donald trump. he basically was thrown away after he spent all that time, and i still say it wasn't an attorney-client relationship. it was really master-serve want. so that's the reason why he hates him. but that doesn't mean he's making this up. that's what the prosecution would say.

lonny davis say they may not like him, they may not find him contrite, but he's telling the truth. >> that's such an interesting point, emily. i wonder about that because it's not like any other case. if you have some garden variety case at a company and one person has an unhealthy obsession with another person and that can kind of make them look, you know, for lack of better term they look unhinged or bananas, and you say to the jury we shouldn't be involved in this, whatever this person's fixation is. in this case we're talking about the former president who landed the big company, who landed michael cohen, at least a part of the story how he ended up in prison according to even the feds who called him individual one and all that. so, you know, to quote the wise taylor swift, emily, you say it's not all about me. but what if it is? and what if it is all about donald trump? is it possible that he has a strong burning obsession that's

all about donald trump that for years is positive and for years is negative and that it's all about him because he is the person who was involved in things that led to cohen's incarceration, and that doesn't mean he's lying right now. >> right. and also that in order to be the servant to trump's master, like catherine was saying, you have to have this kind of personality. that in fact the personality flaws that we see in michael cohen also reflect back onto trump because he's so clearly subservient here, right, and that could add up to the jury as well. >> yeah, understood. really interesting. coming up we have the witnesses worried about the 2016 election, why they were rattled and the jury's understanding of the alleged campaign i'll. and mob ties, mob tactics, and mob talk when we come back. b tad mob talk when we come back

michael cohen spoke out today in a way that may matter more than anything else he's ever said in any form about his former boss, donald trump. he testified today and yesterday and at times discussed what basely he and others, even the former fbi director have said is trump's mob tendencies. cohen said when the fbi raided his home he felt trump didn't want me to cooperate the

government. keep in mind that's the government donald trump ran at the time and certainly not flip. that's the language of criminals, not law and order supporters. an example of a pattern that has been established, cohen also saying trump avoided e-mail not because he was old-fashioned or, you know, preferred the sound of the human voice but quite specifically because trump had allegedly recounted e-mails are like written papers and he knows too many people who have gone down from using e-mails that prosecutors can use. let's recall our nation is not fill of saints, but the vast majority of people do not go down in courts of law at all. most people are not just habitually cheating on their taxes and lying to everyone and signing hush money agreements and doing sordid other things that create criminal exposure. so while people are afraid to use or not use e-mail the reason behind that is what prosecutors call consciousness of guilt.

cohen also said this back in 2019. >> he doesn't give you questions, he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in a code, and i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade. >> we turn to someone who has also been around users of certain codes, former fbi assistdant director of counter intel, frank figliuzzi, an msnbc analyst. when you look at this from a law enforcement perspective we're not so interested in the rettic and attacks and or oh, he's a mobster, for one thing he's not being accused of a double homicide here, but the consciousness of guilt prosecutors care about, do you think any of that came through in cohen's stories and this apparent aversion to creating evidence? >> i'll tell you what, ari, it does make this tough and i'm speaking as an informer fbi agent for 25 years. it makes it tough in terms of investigating and making the case convincingly to the jury. i remind folks that when you're talking about a mob metaphor or

analogy, you should look at john gadi and the cam beano crime family. it is traditionally extremely hard to make the case against the very top echelon of on organized crime family. how was the case made against him, it was only after years of trying at federal and state levels getting microphones inside the social club in new york and literally capturing on tape gadi's own voice that acknowledged criminal conduct and corruption. we don't have that here. we do have the next best thing. we have trump's voice on recording. >> let me redirect you a bit since i was in court all day. what i'm asking is does it matter or not they wanted to elicit from cohen this emphasis that trump had about avoiding records? does that do anything, or do you

think that's just not enough? >> so both. i think it does something because you've got to translate code for the jury. the jury has to understand -- american jurors watch way too much television. they want that audio recording. they want the videotape. they don't have that here necessarily, so the prosecution needs to say, look, if uricing for that, we need you to look over here because this guy speaks in code, you're not going to get it, and let's explain that to you. but do i also think there's enough here for every jury, every juror to buy into that, no i do not. i do see a pathway to a hung jury here. >> yeah, and i've been telling viewers tonight if there is a hung jury it will partly be from the cross today and what we may see tomorrow, because they are poking some holes as i put it with no knock outs. people should understand we're just following the evidence. you mention code and whether or not you can kwips a jury of somebody's the intent. we're talking about criminal the

intent, which is different than just admitting things more than you need to. even on the smoke and gun call on the different election rico case which has been delayed in georgia, there are people who strongly oppose donald trump, and what they hear for sure is election fraud, duh. but there are other people including lawyers who would say this isn't his first rodeo and talking about finding votes that may be valid is certainly a more clever way to get where you want to go than admitting, which he doesn't actually technically do on the call, that you want a government official to commit blatant voter fraud or to make fraudulent papers. here's that moment. take a listen. >> so, look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state. and flipping the state sagreat

testament to our country because, you know, it's -- it's a testament they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it. >> by getting cohen and others to speak to this, what they're trying to do is convince the injury, hey, you're not going to find some extreme perry mason-type confession even on the records and tapes, but you're going to find everything else. and then the fact this person is avoiding being on e-mails and records precisely because of their the intent, how do you think that works? >> it's a two-way sword. you play that georgia phone call, and you could argue this is the most clear we've ever heard trump engaging in criminal conduct, and another juror, by the way, who might be sitting on that particular case might say wait a minute, he caveated. he showed that he believed that he won the election. and, you know, what, we should be able to admit our mistakes.

so he's careful here in his code. he gives himself an out. similarly, you could look at the taped conversation with michael cohen where he says pay in cash, let's pay ipcash. and cohen says no, no, no, no. so you can look at it and see he has criminal conduct, and look at it say the guy wanted to pay cash and he must not have thought anything was happening. it was cohen who said no, no, no we've got to setup accounts. he was coded and careful at the same time. >> coded and careful, that's well put from an fbi vet. frank figliuzzi, thank you, sir. appreciate it. when we look at the campaign history trump was afraid and there's evidence that he was right to be afraid. >> i see now that my ambition and the intoxication of trump power had much to do with the bad decisions in part that i made.

i am sorry from actively working to hide from you the truth about mr. trump when you need it the most. truth about mr. trump when you need it the most

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what is your response to them saying you went rogue? >> well, that's the defense they're going to try to put forward. it's going to fail and fail miserably. there were notifications that came into the trump organization about her. she was going to go public with the information. >> michael cohen previewing the testimony we finally got this week in one of our discussions last year. it was the october surprise, of course, that rocked the 2016

campaign, the "access hollywood" tape. it spread panic across not only trump's campaign and the rnc but real questions about whether they were going to try to ditch him entirely as a candidate. >> donald trump's presidential campaign in turmoil tonight, facing withering political fallout. >> house speaker paul ryan released this statement canceling trump's event. i am sickened by what i heard today. >> former republican presidential nominee senator john mccain pull his endorsement. >> when the tape comes out he drops from 31 to 48. then on the weekend after everyone has seen the tape, he falls through the floor. that's why driving the republican party and donald trump off a clip and into the political abyss. >> mitch mccomcalled trump's comments repugnant and unacceptable. >> this election ended. all i can say is i'm sorry. >> it didn't quite end but as rachel reported there, had the election been held that week wisconsin and other states almost certainly would have gone

a different way. it wasn't a 3 or 4-point difference at that juncture. the trial has shown why the campaign was in such desperate measures to make sure no more nails and what some even said the proverbial coffin would come out. hope hicks who was loyal to donald trump up to january 6th said it was a crisis after the tape and trump was concerned those women's stories would hurt the campaign and his standing voters. cohen saying it would have been catastrophic and this was at the time he was super loyal to trump and that trump had said women are going to hate me. it's a disaster women will hate me. guys will think it's cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign, end quote. no one knows whether the way it wept down could have changed. or had those other stories come out, whether trump would have won or lost. the prosecutors emphasize it doesn't matter. the only thing the jury has to

keep in mind is why there was such a motivation to take these actions to potentially do things that they knew, consciousness of guilt might have been illegal, but that's what they needed to at least keep the campaign on life support. we do know the election was close. 10,000 votes in michigan, 44,000 in pennsylvania, that's out of over 100 million nationwide. razor thin in three states, and also losing the electoral college. the voters then didn't know about the hush money scheme. there are no do overs in presidential campaigns, but what this trial is bringing to the jury is the intense political motivation for what prosecutors say was a crime that went well-beyond politics as usual. that does it for me. keep it locked right here on msnbc. my predecessor wants to cut social security and medicare. he said there's a lot of reason you can d