how it's been portrayed largely to the public. the scenario with that fact pattern has not been put in front of the voters the way you just described it, to be very honest about it, number one. because the way you described it, that's less. >> sean: that's less the narrative we see from the speaker of the house. >> you talk about media. media, what is media? is it people on cable news? this network? tiktok? >> everybody. >> there's just people are getting information from all different sources right now. they can go where they want to get the information. >> they do. >> they want. so i just want you to define your terms. >> there's an inconsistent message across the board. not putting the finger on whether it's tv, radio, social media. it's everybody that's telling the story, number one. number two, the political side

of this has just been one where there have been more vacuums created than information to fill those vacuums. whether that's how the democratic party from the political arm sort of does the political narrative. it's because the republicans have been very good and very consistent about that, right? so they have made, they have stood by and defended their guy regardless and now they've got the message they all need to show up. so what are they doing? showing up. how are we reporting that? as if this is something oh, very important, transfixed, transactional certainly, but a transition for donald trump. no. it's part of the political narrative. it's part of the fact that yeah, we're trying to create a different image here than the one of the man sitting in the courtroom by himself because his family's not there. so we're going to give him his political family. and they're all starting to line up. so all i'm just saying is how all this comes together does matter in how the voters in may are looking at this.

it will be a very different conversation you and i will be having in august after the conventions and after much more head to head engagement between the two nominees for the presidency. that's all i'm saying at this point. >> and michael steele, it's also a situation where the white house did an event today on tariffs against china, for better for worse. that is drowned out because most people are, assuming the media, social media and cable and broadcast mostly covering this trial. it's a challenge for them as well. thanks to you. thanks very much, michael steele, from our republican national chairman and to all of our guests. that does it for me. i'll be back tomorrow at 12:00 eastern here on msnbc. don't go anywhere. moments from now, the cross-examination begins for michael cohen. my colleagues, chris jansing and katy tur continue our special coverage of the donald trump

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prosecutors, we've watched it all day long. they've tried to get ahead of donald trump's defense team by having cohen own up to his past lives and there are many. >> he told the jury today he was worried, nervous, looking for some kind of reassurance that donald trump still had his back once he became the target of a criminal investigation. but that his family were the ones who ultimately convinced

him that his loyalty to trump wasn't worth it. that they should be loyal to them, his family. not trump. yasmin and andrew are still with us. also joining the conversation, msnbc legal analyst and former manhattan assistant district attorney, catherine christian. and criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor and senior staffer in the manhattan d.a.'s office, duncan levin. i'm going to give you the first swing at the bat. we've watched cohen's testimony. followed along today. the defense is going to get their first crack at him today. what will you be watching for? >> if he continues to be as composed as he was on the direct. this is a michael cohen we didn't really know from the public record so far. he was so composed and answered the questions in a very measured kind of way. we're going to see if they can

get under his skin. that's what they're going to be trying to do all day with with the cross-examination. they're going to be trying to portray him as a liar. as somebody who's really trying to pin this on trump now. that this was something that donald trump had nothing to do with. that he and allen weisselberg were acting on their own. they had weisselberg's handwriting all over this. >> literally. >> all over the bank statements and numbers. there's not much they can do with it. admit what they can't deny. they're going to be trying to get under michael cohen's skin all day, showing him to be the liar that he is. that they tried to get out on the direct. the prosecutors did a good job of deflating some of that. >> told us yesterday in prepping michael cohen for his congressional testimony, he would yell at him the way he expected republicans to yell at him. do you expect hoffinger, spend a

year prepping him for this. >> yes, she's spent 20 years as a defense attorney. longer than she's been a prosecutor so i'm sure she beat him up a little bit and took care of him. the one thing, sorry, susan, i would have leaned more into his hatred for trump. he talked about a moral compass but he's been acting a fool on tiktok and wearing t-shirts. there's nothing wrong with saying yes, i hate him, he ruined my life. >> stormy daniels did that, too, and given the story they told and their relationship with donald trump and both believe he ruined their lives -- >> it would have been natural. of course i hate him. look what he did to me. it wasn't really an attorney client relationship. he was in many ways sorry, michael cohen, a lap dog for donald trump. he tried to please him then donald trump just tossed him away. so of course, he hates him. so i thought a little meaning into that, but other than that,

i thought it was a very good direct. >> how do you get someone, andrew, under their skin. how do you prepare to do that? has he watched every interview that cohen has ever done? do you look over and over and over again at the congressional testimony? do you just hammer? >> you can try to get under his skin but there's enough video of him to play to the jury of what he was like when he was working for donald trump. there are enough inconsistent statements including from like you know, essentially a new york minute ago as catherine has pointed out, of his saying all sorts of derogatory things about donald trump. so you can show the jury a very different side even if michael cohen doesn't show it himself. at the end of the day, this is

all theatre. the closing is going to be did michael cohen and allen weisselberg keep this from donald trump? pause there is dispositive evidence that's just not really plausible to think michael cohen and weisselberg did not do this. michael cohen is saying he did this. he's saying i'm bad. i did this. there's tons of corroboration he did this. weisselberg is on notes showing that he knew about this. so the issue is would they do this behiepd donald trump's back and that's where i think the state is going to flip the script on this, you're saying how awful and he's not somebody who is going to be doing something out of the goodness of his heart. that he's motivated by self-interest. it would not make any sense for weisselberg and cohen to have done this behind donald trump's back.

they would have everything to lose and nothing to gain. >> donald trump just walked back into the courtroom joined by his son, eric. his wife, lara. co-chair of the rnc. boris epstein is there. haba is there. who i'm not saying are the senators or the speaker mike johnson or want to be vp running mates we saw today. they seem to have got their fill in the morning session of the court. not sticking around, it seems, unless they come in a bit later for the cross-examination. we will wait and see to confirm that. one of the questions we had, we talked about this before break, during the break. ending with michael cohen. good idea, bad idea, risky? >> i'm fascinating because you have a good panel of folks. i think it's risky. it's not how i would end a case because you just don't know how

cross-examination is going to go. we don't have the exact transcript, is there any wiggle room in the way this was represented to judge merchan in that it was the last witness. it's our intent that this will be our last witness. >> steinglass told merchan that cohen will be the last. >> it's a partial transcript. >> it could have said we expect or perhaps. >> no, he didn't. he said michael cohen will be the final prosecution witness. can they change their mind depending on -- >> it does suggest to me they think he's doing well. the way they presented him is, it's almost like a mini summation. they wrapped all of the corroboration around his testimony, which you don't really have to do. there are other ways to have presented him. so it was sort of what a preview of kind of what you're going to hear in summation and talking

about all the corroboration. this is such an experienced team that i hate to second guess it because i don't know all of the other choices they have. it's not typical to end with that witness. normally, you have a sort of easy witness to presents documents. things that are really can't be challenged. the documents don't lie. >> we want to squeeze in a break before we start this cross-examination, but i want to give you both a quick opportunity. would you have ended with michael cohen? does it make sense to you? >> i agree with andrew. i said to duncan, i thought they were going to call an expert in federal election law. so the jury's just supposed to figure it out on their own? >> federal or state elections violation. >> i still think you need something for the jury so they're not sitting back there saying what is that other crime he intended to commit or

conceal? they talked about him pleading to federal. they didn't explain what it was, just that it was illegal. they made a strategic choice. they've said that the new york election day to promote election by unlawful means, that would be the crime earlier on -- >> merchan is back on the bench. he calls for the witness two minutes early so that's going to come in. >> the defense is going to make a big deal about all the witnesses we didn't hear from. didn't hear from karen mcdougal, weisselberg. there are two ways you could call michael cohen. the first narrater who's going to bring it forward. i think the question is who else were they going to call? i don't disagree. they need to supply something to the jury on this elections issue, but he's a good person to wrap it all up almost like a mini closing argument. >> and now we're going to hear what todd blanche has to say.

a source with knowledge of the situation is telling nbc news blanche has preparing for this cross for months. what does that look like? what does that preparation look like? >> the preparation is such a huge record. michael cohen is an uncontrollable witness for the d.a.'s office. he's not a typical witness in a typical case the d.a. says to a witness, keep your mouth shut and you'll be heard at trial and don't say anything. this is a witness who like stormy daniels has been on podcasts. he's been writing books. he's been writing blogs. he is out there. he has congressional testimony. there's a huge, rich collection of things they can cross examine him on. he has gone to jail. they are poring through not only the criminal record, they are really trying to get under his skin with facts and his background and they have a lot to work with. >> we want to take a quick

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mr. cohen, my name is todd blanche and i have never met you. you went on tiktok and called me a crying little s word. we can't say it. cohen says sounds like something

i would say. objection from the prosecution sustained from judge merchan. and there's a bench meeting already. question stricken. i don't believe there was an answer, merchan says. >> blanche is coming in hot. this is an interesting strategy. >> yeah. tell us about the strategy as we watch this update. >> it seems like a few good men a little bit. you ordered the code red, didn't you. like he's there trying right out of the gate to get under his skin. that's what they have to do. look how composed. cohen has got to be one of the most prepped witnesses ever. he's been working at that direct. he was like a choir boy. very polite, concise. answer any question. they know they've got to get under his skin today and they are out of the gate doing it. i don't know whether it's going to work or not work. whether he knows that he has to stay composed, but it is a very personal line of attack.

and it puts the lawyer at play and it's just a very risky strategy with, right out of the gate. >> in that line from few good men, you can't handle the truth. i thought he might come in, you can't tell the truth. after we did that bench meeting, todd blanche asks, you have been following what's happening. what's happening in this trial, correct. to some extent, cohen says. yes. jury selection. did you learn about the jury selection process? cohen, i've made comments about, not asking if you've made comments. asking if you've learned about jury selection. on april 23rd, you said you heard what the witness had testified about. there was an objection. it's overruled. you can answer. michael cohen, it's possible. yes. on tiktok when pecker was on the stand, he was corroborated because you heard from the people? yes, someone called me that pecker had corroborated what i

had been saying for a long time. where's this going? >> by the way, here's color from vaughn. when blanche said you know, you called me a blank on tiktok, vaughn says two of the jurors seated next to each other gave grins and both sides were called up for a side bar. so i don't know what the grins were about, but it was definitely reaction from the jury. >> what do you think? >> i'm not a fan of the choice that was made to open that way. i think defense lawyers have, it's an honorable thing to be a criminal defense lawyer. it's an important role. in our system. it's important to hold the state to its burden. it struck me as one, entirely too personal for the defense lawyer to inject himself into the case and his credibility and

demeanor. you don't want to start cross-examination with something the judge is going to sustain an objection to and side bar, i don't think that's a good look. here, there's so much to work with. i think that is not a great choice. >> and yet it immediately raises the question, katy. i want to note that maggie haberman who did some great reporting about tension between donald trump and todd blanche, they reposted that article, updated today. it could also be read as you know that donald trump wants him to go in tough. he wants a pickle. >> let me read some of this. so blanche asks him, you've been following cnn, msnbc during this trial. cohen says i have been on cnn and watched msnbc not religiously. blanche, you're watching maybe not all the time about what is happening and that is because this trial is important to you. cohen says i do it because at

times, there are other issues as well like the protests in israel. blanche asks is the trial important to you, mr. cohen? cohen says personally, yes. blanche, you referred to trump as a dictator d bag. he says the whole word. sounds like something i said, cohen says. blanche. >> and not dirt, right? >> not dirt. not dirt. >> more derogatory. dictator, derogatory word, bag. you said he should go back to where he belongs in an f-ing cage like an f-ing animal. recall saying that? cohen says i recall saying that. the government has repeatedly asked you to stop talking publicly about this case. cohen says they might have, yes. prosecutors from the manhattan d.a.'s office have repeatedly asked you to stop talking.

cohen says presumably he's going to say yes. so they're trying to say what catherine you mentioned, that he hates trump. he's calling him names. >> which should have come out on direct but now it's coming out. this is not the court reporter, some of his answer. possible, you know, yes. his answer should be yes, i did this. yes. so they might have told me, he was told numerous times stop speaking to the press. stop with the tiktoks. so he has to on cross, be more, you know, honest. >> if you're being prepared for that, does the person preparing you say don't say i recall saying that. just say yes. >> without a doubt, susan hoffinger went through this, say yes, say no. >> i'm not watching but i can

hear the way michael cohen i know at least, the one i know how he would say it. i recall saying that. sounds like something i would say. >> so he's turning back to who he really is, which is a problem for the prosecution. >> we haven't had a lot to read from the jury. vaughn was saying the eyes of the jurors are intently going from blanche then to cohen and back to blanche. one has a slight grin. the rest are stoic. we've asked time after time for our folks in the courtroom, they have belied virtually no emotion. lisa, who's also there, cohen is already fighting things he should acknowledge like the fact prosecutors have asked him to stop talking about the case publicly. >> which catherine just said. >> but clearly, the jurors are watching this. what's going on in their head is anybody's guess. >> on cross-examination, you

don't just own it. they did a very good job on direct of trying to deflate some of the issues that were going to come out. they knew that blanche was going to come out very strong in this and he needs to basically own who he is. he has a long record of being who he is. one of the facts of this trial is i think the jurors know who michael cohen is. the pecker testimony. the keith davidson testimony. all the testimony coming up to this. michael cohen has come across as a terrible person to work with. as somebody who is very difficult. somebody who screams at people. everybody coming into this sitting on the jury already knows who michael cohen is. not from the outside. presumably they've been instructed not to watch news about it, but they know who he is. when he's sitting there on cross-examination, he loses credibility points and now it's coming out who he is. that being said, what is it

going to matter? what does it matter at the end of the day whether he comes out looking like he's shading things a little better. his credibility matters but the d.a. put him on last because all of what he's saying is being corroborated by all these other little bread crumbs that have been left along the way. >> the prosecution had a parade of witnesses ahead of cohen, laying the foundation then michael cohen came in and just basically confirmed everything they had testified to. let me read more from what's happening. again, prosecutors from the manhattan d.a. repeatedly asked you to stop talking. cohen says yes. blanche, your attorney in a 2021 was your attorney, is he still your lawyer? cohen says no, he stopped in 2022. blanche, on january 15th, 2021, there was a leak to the associated press and you and mr. davis denied being the source. do you remember that? your lawyer said neither you nor he was the source. cohen answers, if that's what it

says. blanche, do you remember mr. davis asking line prosecutors to report the top? this is sustained. what is that line prosecutors to report the top? do you guys know? >> report to the top. >> report to the top. all right. do you remember your lawyer talking to you, sustained. february 22nd, 2021. do you remember at that time the d.a. was frustrated that when they would say something to you or your lawyer about the investigation, you would say it on tv. cohen, i don't recall. now they're showing an e-mail between the d.a.'s office and michael cohen and lanny davis. we did not see the e-mail. reporters in the court, but cohen did. february 22nd, 2021. there was concern you were going to go on television. now the court reporter is reading back a question to the court off mike. color from inside the room. cohen's attorney looking on from the front row. she is prepared him extensively

for cross. merchan overruled an objection. allowing michael cohen to answer. again, do you remember if in february 2021, you were going on tv to talk about the investigation? cohen says i go on tv often. what was i responding to? i don't know. all right, so they're going somewhere with this. i guess they're trying to say the d.a.'s office wanted you to stop. you couldn't help yourself. >> it's true, correct. he's the kind of witness you don't want as a prosecutor because he's out there talking. on the other hand, the d.a.'s office didn't pick him as a witness. donald trump did. donald trump surrounded himself with people like michael cohen and that's something prosecutors are going to remind the jury of. they're going to say michael cohen is a liar. he's been convicted and stands in front of you. you don't have to believe everything you heard him say, but a will the of what he says, particularly on the important things, are corroborated.

and that's what they're going to say. >> between want to kind of build some sort of momentum and i would say looking at this objection, objection, objection, objection in just the first few minutes, that maybe the prosecution wants to interrupt the flow except that they're getting a lot of sustained. >> they're getting overruled. >> that is a risk. of doing that. but i do think the strategy of separating the witness from the d.a.'s office and trying to show that this witness not only violated his oath of office, but wouldn't even take the direction of the district attorney when they were requested him to stop speaking about the case. so it makes it harder in summation to say this is why you should believe him saying they know, these people sitting at the state's table, they know he's a difficult witness. yet they're here vouching for

him. so i think that's a strategy and so i don't think that's a wrong strategy. it may not be perfectly executed. one thing to remember about todd blanche, he might be an exxon former prosecutor, but this is one of his very first defense cases in terms of cross examining. doesn't mean he'll be bad at it, but it's unusual he's not susan necheles who's had long experience doing this. >> blanche has had a lot of exhibits but he's not letting the jury or reporters in the room see it. only for the eyes of cohen and the parties an the judge. why? >> it's not in evidence. you can't, until it's admitted in evidence, you're allowed to show it to the smaller group then if it meets the admissibility standards, the judge will let it in. so far, it's not like it seems to even be offered by blanche. >> again, they're going through the d.a.'s office asked you

again please don't talk to the press and he still talked to the press. cohen admits yes, he did. i talked to the press. you continued to talk to the press. blanche, i don't want it to sound correct. is it correct. cohen says yes, it's correct. again, this is going to be a while, guys. we're going to get a lot of this i imagine. >> well, he, unfortunately for the prosecution, is back to the way michael cohen is. the yes man. no, ma'am. that was direct examination. so what blanche is trying to show, okay, here's the real michael cohen. and he can't even listen to the prosecutors. that's what they're going to argue in their summation. they're vouching. >> you can't keep your mouth shut. what does that prove? >> it shows he can't follow rules. district attorney's office said please don't speak. >> he obviously can't follow the rules. he was cheating to falsify

business documents. >> this is one of the main witnesses. the prosecution would argue he's not the main witness because they have so much corroboration. even out of donald trump's mouth. he looked at the invoices for the decorators. they have so much corroboration that they can believe cohen, but the defense has to make him a liar on everything including during what he told you at this trial. >> also joining us is criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, jeremy solan. jeremy, yes, he's a liar. yes, he hasn't been paying attention or deliberately not doing what he's been asked to do by the judge, by his attorneys. does that necessarily translate to the jury that the story he told is not to be trusted? >> you know, i think blanche is taking the right tactic though out of the gate. you don't want to have an objection sustained right out of the gate, but he came at michael cohen to get under his skin.

maybe that can help bring out who the real michael cohen is. he's not the yes, sir, no, ma'am person. i think at the end of the day, if he continues on this trajectory, you don't want to make yourself the center here as a criminal defense attorney. you don't want to jury to say who's that jerk that won't stop. at the same time, the more often you can't get an easy straight answer which requires a yes or no and there's a little bit of a story or sidestep, it just goes back to you can't trust this guy. he's dishonest. and remember, as much as the prosecution wants to make this about falsified business records, extorting stormy daniels and a line guy with an agenda. and michael cohen, the more likely they can win this case and get that one juror to say no proof beyond a reasonable doubt. >> back to the document. blanche, you testified to the grand jury and prior to your

testimony on march 13th. you testified you gave two phones. jeremy rosenberg and a week later on cnn, you told don lemon you were contacted by the d.a. and they took your phones to which michael cohen says sounds correct. blanche. do you remember the district attorney's office being frustrated and upset that you had done that? cohen, yes, sir. now we're back to the yes, sir. blanche, are you the one that leaked to cnn that you had given your phones to the district attorney earlier in january 2023? michael cohen, i don't recall. blanche. you don't recall either way? michael cohen, i don't. >> by the way, there's leaked is a -- i'm not blaming todd blanche for using that, but there is no legal prohibition on a witness saying anything. that witness can speak to the press. they can come on shows. they can talk to cnn.

they can talk about what happened to the grand jury if they want to. the word leaked is the one thing i would have objected to if i were the state. if a prosecutor is leaking grand jury information, that is a leak. that is in fact a crime but it is not for a witness like cohen. he can do any of that every day of the week. >> he didn't own up to it. he said i don't recall. does he really not recall leaking that to cnn? that's what the defense will argue or maybe he leaked so many times. >> credibility. >> you guys are trying to find out, you the jury. figure out if michael cohen is credible here. and he still can't tell you the truth even while he's on the stand today. i imagine their argument is. but there's also all the other people who testified and the mutual corroboration of details surrounding what happened with

the stormy daniels payment. what happened to get the deal secured. what happens in the lead up to the election and then the circumstances surrounding the meeting where donald trump agreed to pay him back. not to mention as we keep going back to exhibits 35 and 36 with the weisselberg's own handwriting talking about how to pay michael cohen back. >> he's a detailed, micro managing manager. is it possible he wouldn't know this is happening. >> does this seem like a little strategy to you? >> the thing is that we haven't heard the defense case yet. we are only hearing them poking holes at the prosecution witness and we don't know who they're going to call. if they're going to have a robust case, a narrow case or if this is their case just to try to poke holes in it. they did this with daniels. they've been trying to poke holes in this by suggesting there's some alternate reality, but they're not providing what that is. so without michael cohen, this

case is largely circumstantial. so everybody can question on the jury whether it's believable that he didn't know what those $35,000 checks were he was signing month after month. he can say circumstantially obviously that's what it was. michael cohen turns this from a circumstantial case to a direct case. even if you knock him out, it doesn't do that much for the defense unless they provide an alternative plan to say you and weisselberg were working together to try to hide this for your own self-good promote yourself to try to get a job in the administration. none of it really comports with the other evidence so far. the question is is this going to be effective. >> can i interrupt because we're getting color from inside the room. we've talked about how reading it, the room, can be a very different thing. this is from a producer.

cohen is frustrating blanche and making this difficult for him. we will see how long this lasts but for now, cohen is holding his own quite well. >> that's the difference between, i was talking with mary about this, she was reading the record and you don't get the tone, the cadence, the sense of sarcasm or not. there's a lot that you miss in terms of how it is playing. >> yeah. >> the other is very often, a witness doesn't recall something and just because you're shown a piece of paper and the defense lawyer asks a question with a tone of oh, you must remember this. and they're showing the piece of paper, that piece of paper may be irrelevant. >> acting. playing up authority.

playing up knowledge. >> theatre. >> i would say look, the prosecutor does have a different role and if you're doing it, you have to be going for the truth. of course you want to win, but you have an obligation to make this as candid as possible. the defense role in terms of theatre, obviously, they have to stay within the rules, but the role of theatre and distraction and raising issues that a juror might find important but maybe is not as a linear thing, doesn't make sense. that's fine. that's what the defense is supposed to do and the job of the state is to say wait a second, none of that makes a difference. in the same way you're asking questions of does it really matter whether he leaked this to cnn or not. how is that going to play out? that is very much and i think what people are seeing is the state's role versus the defense role here. >> this is interesting from chris hayes.

he said from his perspective. and we heard him earlier. all this feeling you get sometimes when you dip into a trump speech or a fox segment with lots of references to preexisting controversies and narratives that you might not be able to follow if you're not up to speed and i think that was kind of where my question was going. like, it does seem a little here, there, and everywhere. and can everyone who doesn't sit on a television set or sit on their couch and watch us 24/7, know what some of this stuff is or care? do they understand what he's trying to do here? what do you think, catherine? >> cause confusion. defense attorneys, i always say, throw it up on the wall and hope it sticks because you want the jurors to go back there and like not know what the heck is going on, which means reasonable doubt for one or two people. so an inordinate amount of time

prosecutors telling him not to speak. trying to get cohen back to himself. >> saying he plays by his own rules. i know you have to go, there have been eight objections by our count over the last 24 minutes. tell us your take on sort of the what we're getting in materials terms of color from chris hayes and our producer and the approach that's being taken so far? do you kind of establish something at the beginning when you're doing cross-examination? >> i like the approach so far. i just had a trial where a guy had dna on the trigger and handle. made it about the bad search of the cops and the police who did bad. which they did. ultimately, it was a hung jury. if you can change the narrative and make it about stormy daniels and michael cohen and make them angry and agitated and make them

inconsistent and evasive, less on stormy daniels and michael cohen because he's really the main event for the prosecution even if there's other people and evidence lifting him up. then you're doing your job. no matter how good the evidence is surrounding him, if he comes off as a liar without an agenda, maybe the d.a.'s office wins a misdemeanor. get to that felony, if you don't get that felony, this is a loss. you don't want to walk away with a misdemeanor conviction. it's the right strategy because a jury can see who he is. >> jeremy, thank you very much. let's bring in former federal judge, john jones. tell me about the role merchan's got to play here and what he needs to watch out for as this cross-examination goes on. >> well, the first reaction i have is that i hope the good judge had some espresso dumped

into his coffee after lunch because this is, you know, by my calculation, you're seeing there's an objection every couple of minutes. and it's tough because you've got to follow everything that's going on and then you've got to referee. you've got to conduct side bars, which trial judges know jurors hate them. because they think that something's being withheld from them. so the best you can do is just to try to protect the record and keep the case moving. you know, i think about merchan. he spent the morning with some of you know, trump's accolites and want to be vice presidents staring at him from the gallery. he ends the day by having trump go out and have a press conference and scream about how he's fixed and corrupt and now he has to live through this this afternoon. so it's a tough, it's a tough day to be a trial judge. >> does it make it tough? obviously you and no one else in the history of the judicial

system in the united states has had to sit on the bench while a bunch of people are lined up who would like to be the vice presidential nominee. when you have people who are there who you know have a particular interest or who are high profile, does it give you pause as the judge? >> i'm sure that it would. i've had some high profile cases, but admittedly none quite like this. this is in the annals of jurisprudence. there's nothing like this, obviously. i suspect that a veteran trial judge like merchan, he's going to keep his head down and do his job. judges are all too human. but he's got to just plow through this examination. i agree with andrew that unless you're in the courtroom, you really can't get a feel for how questioning a line of questioning or an answer

resonates. reading it in a dry transcript is awfully hard to evaluate that. >> let's go back inside the courtroom because blanche is asking him about the podcast episodes he's done since his investigation started. more than 200. cohen says yes. would you agree you have talked about president trump in every one. i would say he's mentioned in every one, yes. you're also active on twitter, x. cohen says yes. you do a nightly live tiktok, right? cohen says correct. how long? more than an hour. what's the goal of that, blanche asks. build an audience, create community, vent because i'm having a difficult time sleeping. blanche, do you make money off it. cohen says i do. do you spend a significant amount of time on this? cohen says no. you don't spend a significant amount of time on your tiktoks encouraging the folks listening to subscribe? on the tiktok, when did you

start that? cohen, six weeks ago. blanche, how many nights do you talk about president trump? cohen, six days a week. cohen, i speak about mr. trump, yes. blanche, both in response to comments and when you retweet or post on your own, correct? cohen, yes. blanche, you commented on political beat downs that you were meeting with the government in preparation with your testimony and you displayed a binder of materials that the d.a. gave you to study. cohen says yes, correct. blanche, you displayed a binder of materials the d.a. gave you to study. cohen says i recall that binder. publicly available documents. what publicly available documents? my elocution, cohen says. your guilty plea? cohen, yes, they gave it to my attorney. this is continuing. what's the goal of this, catherine? >> he's obsessed with revenge

against donald trump. that's what they're saying. i mean, 200, everything is about trump. his whole life is about trump and getting revenge. that's what they're going to argue. six weeks ago right before the trial, he starts a tiktok about revenge. i'm waiting for them to bring out that he was wearing a t-shirt last week of trump behind bars. his bias, his hostility, his interest. >> you also talked about your desire for donald trump to get convicted in this case. his podcast. cohen says sounds like something i would say. have you regularly commented on your podcast that you want president trump convicted in this case? cohen says yes. probably. blanche, do you have any doubt? cohen says no. i would like to see accountability. it's not -- >> the same phrase that stormy daniels, something very similar that she used.

>> i would like to see accountability. it's not for me. it's for the jury to decide. >> it is fine to bring out motive of a witness. do they want to see result in this case. and it's fine for the jurors to consider that. i remember a trial we had where the ex-wife of the defendant had tried to kill him. and was asked about that. and was said yes, i did try and kill him. unfortunately, i missed. and was asked you would say anything. you would lie to see him be convicted and she was like, you know what, that's right. i would. i don't have to here. but i would. and you know what, she was totally believed by the jury. there's nothing wrong with that as long as you're very candid about it. you have to be able to say yes, you know, and as catherine said, there's nothing wrong with saying i'm angry with him and i have every reason to be. you could imagine stormy daniels having been raked over the coals being angry as well.

so as long as you're not presenting yourself as oh, no, i have no bias. >> todd blanche, i'm just asking you to say yes or no. do you want to see president trump convicted in this case. cohen. sure. you sell a t-shirt depicting trump behind bars. yes. if somebody logs on to your podcast, that's what they see? yes. mea culpa merchandise store page. so he's making money off of it. he would love to see donald trump go behind bars and we should also remember that donald trump, there was a t-shirt of him that was a mug shot of donald trump. so presumably it works both ways. but to the point of we don't know. again, we don't know what the jurors are thinking but i'm sure all of you have had an experience speaking to a juror after a trial and to the point of he's kind of going over a lot

of stuff. you don't always know. they tell you that resonated with them? >> you're like, what? somewhat of a tangent. okay. >> this is hardly the first time somebody who's testifying in a trial wants to see the defendant convicted. there are lots of times where the witnesses are crime victims who absolutely want to see the defendant convicted and his testimony was powerful because whereas maybe stormy daniels' testimony had him i think come off looking like a predator sitting in his hotel suite wearing a robe as if he was hugh hefner and her hands shaking as she was putting on her gold heels. and he came off icky or like a predator. this was powerful testimony from michael cohen because he came off looking like a thug, a criminal for the first time during the trial. and the testimony that michael cohen had about the search

warrant when he called and spoke with the then president of the united states who said don't worry about this. i got this covered. i'm the president. you know, the fbi works for me. i thought was very powerful. so when you see this cross-examination unfolding, he has an ax to grind but so what. the question is whether at the end of this the jury's just going to say, yeah, he has an ax to grind. there are a lot of witnesses with an ax to grind. >> lisa rubin says cohen is maintaining his calm, at least up until a little while ago. that's her take on it. again, reading it, seeing it. maybe a little different. >> i think catherine's point though in terms of trial strategy is one which is i think susan hoffinger is terrific, but leaning in more to this, i would have brought this out on direct more. you want to see him just come right out. you want to see him convicted. why is that?

just put it out there. >> why didn't the prosecution, why didn't they go there? >> a little mistake. she should have because then it's like they've already heard it. he has a reason to hate donald trump. >> we're going to sneak in a quick break because we follow along this document. his account at the least the tweeting things, posting things on social media. andrew, catherine, duncan, all still with us. you are hopefully going to stay with us. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back in just a couple of minutes. anywhere. we'll be right back in just a couple of minutes. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) now we're even smarter

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur alongside my colleague, chris jansing. it is getting testy. michael cohen is about 45 minutes into cross-examination. our reporters say cohen is already making it difficult for the defense. >> andrew, catherine, duncan still with us. let's go back into the document. you know this well, katy. they first met in 2006. there was a board meeting at one of the, for one of the trump properties. todd blanche says that was during a board dispute that was going on