might have meant if he were tried, let's say on withholding classified documents. >> really fair points all around, michael beschloss, thanks for joining us. >> thank you always. >> you have been watching msnbc coverage of what all agree has been one of the most significant days of testimony, the former lawyer and self- described fixer for donald trump, michael cohen, laying it out. the testimony will continue tomorrow and then we will get across. we are looking for the history together. thanks for spending time with us as mentioned, rachel maddow and our whole team began special coverage, starting right now. >> the people of new york call michael cohen, the star witness at the center of the case takes the stand.

tonight, the michael cohen testimony begins. >> the guy we saw this morning was credible and calm, if not a little freaked out. >> donald trump's former fixer testifies that the candidate himself led the conspiracy. >> the most repeated line of michael cohen's testimony was "just take care of it." >> this is a total disaster. women will hate me. >> the most important thing the jury heard today, he wasn't thinking about his wife. this was all about the candidate. >> tonight, rachel maddow recapped the testimony with lawrence o'donnell, lisa rubin, suzanne crane and katie phang, who were inside the courthouse. plus, nicolle wallace, chris hayes, jen psaki and catherine christian as a special coverage of trump on trial begins, now. >> good evening and thanks for joining us for our msnbc

primetime recap of the criminal trial of former president donald trump. i'm here tonight along with my colleagues, lawrence o'donnell and katie phang and nicolle wallace and chris hayes. big night, you guys. today's proceedings , expected lee to me more like that helpful moment in the old agatha christie style british detective story. been following along, more or less. you know who most of the characters are, you can at least remember most of their names. you know the basic plot of this mystery. but, then, there is this kindness, this great helpful moment in the story where the detective sits down under some stupid pretends with some other character and in their conversation they give you all the answers. it is okay you haven't been paying close attention all along, they in this conversation are going to recap the whole story and not only will they get to the big answer, the big whodunit, they

will also give you the solutions to all of the other little mysteries and red herrings that popped up over the course of the story. that was michael "agatha christie": today. for example, why did michael cohen make the hush money payments to stormy daniels from his home equity line of credit rather than from, i don't know, his bank account? will and today it is because that account was paperless. no statements related to that home equity line of credit were going to be mailed to his house. michael cohen's wife was never going to see some inextricable $130,000.00 payment on a statement and question him as to what he was up to. now we know. also, why, when the reimbursement was made to michael cohen for campaigning for stormy daniels hush money, why did that include not just the stormy daniels reimbursement but a bunch of money for a bunch of other things? well, we learned today that

this was going to be the last money michael cohen ever received from the trump organization. in these payments, they included everything he was owed. they were zeroing him out, he was leaving the company. why was he doing that? because if michael cohen was still a trump organization employee like he had been, it wouldn't make sense for him to be getting checks as a retainer for legal services. he would just be getting a salary like he had been four years before. so, instead, michael cohen leaves the trump organization, becomes the personal attorney to the president, which makes the legal retainer checks look like that was how trump was paying for services as his personal attorney. in reality, michael cohen was never paid anything for being personal attorney to the president. that is just what they called

it, that is just what they called him so it wouldn't look so weird that trump was paying him $35,000 resent checks every month. now that makes sense. also, why did prosecutors go out of their way to point out that ben roethlisberger, the former pittsburgh steelers quarterback had been at the golf event with donald trump at the time of the trump, stormy daniels encounter? now we know. contrary to trump's denials that he encountered stormy daniels, michael cohen testified today that when he asked donald trump if anything had happened between him and stormy daniels, trump bragged to michael cohen that even though he was there at this golf event with big ben roethlisberger for the women there, like stormy daniels, they wanted him more than they wanted big ben. all the little mysteries that have popped up over the course of us learning about this scandal, all the little mysteries that have popped up or inexplicable sidebars and

detours we didn't necessarily understand as the prosecution has laid out its case thus far, michael cohen today divided the all is revealed seen in this detective story, tying up the loose ends, filling in the gaps in the story. and, yes, bringing us to the main event, the big whodunit. michael cohen, longtime lawyer, enforcer, bully, quote unquote fixer for former president donald trump, men who in the mobile analogy was not so much a hitman as he was the underboss, the man who testified today about, for example, telling suppliers and contractors and vendors to trump university that they would get 20% of what they invoiced trump university for or they would get nothing and they would like it. michael cohen gave testimony today that donald trump was in the room where it happened, in the worst possible way.

the one piece of paper that has emerged in this case that is the most important piece of paper of all is this one. this document, people exhibit 35, is the smoking gun document in this first ever criminal trial of an american president. it is a bank statement showing the wire transfer of $130,000.00 to the representative for stormy daniels. it is the bank record showing that the hush money payment was, in fact, made. on the bottom of the bank statement, on the right, you see we now know as michael cohen's handwriting showing something else he wants to be reimbursed for, since we now understand, he's leaving the trump organization. at this point, he wants to make sure in this last payment that is coming to him, this other money the trump organization owes him will be included. that is on the bottom right side of this piece of paper. on the bottom left side of this piece of paper, you see different handwriting. this is handwriting from the

trump organization cfo. it is him doing the math. this is how much michael cohen is owed since we are going to lie and say this is income for him instead of the reimbursement that it actually is. that means he will have to pay taxes on it. here's how much we will add to what we are paying him to account for the taxes he's going to have to pay. here's the add additional bonus line because he said he was owed money on his annual bonus and these are getting another one because he's leaving the organization. usually over 12 part at the bottom, that means we will pay it over 12 months. it is $420,000.00 over 12 months, $35,000 or cents a month. that document, people exhibit 35, what prosecutors have laid out is that that is the smoking gun document that shows the crime. it shows what the payment was really for and how it was disguised as something else and

the business records of the trump organization and it was disguised as something else in order to conceal its true nature because it's true nature was that it was a campaign expenditure. that is the prosecution's case. that document shows the crime. and, we have seen this document before in this trial. today, michael cohen testified for the first time that trump was therefore it that he, michael cohen and allen weisselberg, the trump cfo, talked it over, during which time they made those notes on that piece of paper. that is why there's two different sets of handwriting on that piece of paper. after the two of them worked up that piece of paper the way i just described, they then took that piece of paper and marched it down to donald trump's office on the 26th floor of trump tower and with that paper in hand, the three of them had a discussion about what exactly they were doing and why they were doing it and he said "do it." prosecutor, "following the

meeting with allen weisselberg and both of you and the handwriting to people's exhibit 35, what did you do and where did the two of you go at that time? " and, "we went to mr. trump's office to speak to him." question, "when was this apartment?" "right before the alteration." question, "he was the trump tower at the time?" what did you understand he was engaged in? answer, "being president elect." "was he at meetings at trump tower?" "yes." "during the conversation, allen weisselberg turned around and said to me and what we're going to do is we are going to pay you over 12 months. the indication from the transcript is that michael cohen rebutted that. it was probably better if i get it in one lump sum. no, no, no, why don't you do it as over 12 months and it will be paid out to you monthly. question, did he say anything

about how it would be paid out of something? answer, yes. is like a legal service rendered since i was then being given the title as personal attorney to the president. question, "was this position you had with allen weisselberg mr. trump's office, with mr. trump?" answer, "yes." question, "did allen weisselberg have within this document, people's exhibit 35?" and did he show this document to mr. trump? answer, yes. question, did allen weisselberg say in front of mr. trump how much we were going to be paid in total? answer , "it was going to be divided by 12 and that they would actually start making the demons in february, not january, because there was a lot going on with mr. trump moving to d.c., the emigration, and so on." question, is it stated, did allen weisselberg state in front of mr. trump that you

were going to receive $420,000.00 over the course of 12 months? " answer, "yes." what did mr. trump say at the time? answer, he approved it. he also said this is going to be one heck of a ride in d.c. did he say those monthly payments would be a retainer for legal services? answer, yes. question, did you say something to the effect that you had a sense they had spoken about this previously? answer, yes. why do you say that? because they always played that sort of game. i had been around that office more than enough to realize this conversation had already taken place between the two. when i asked for the 420, mr. trump said it is better to do it over the 12 months. trump defense counsel todd blanche, objection to that answer, move to strike. the judge overruled. overruled. question, "when allen weisselberg laid out the plan of how much you are going to

debate and over apartments and showed mr. trump this document , did mr. trump try to renegotiate?" answer, "no." at some point, did mr. trump confirmed the we was going to give you the title of personal attorney or personal counsel to the president? answer, yes. when in relation to this meeting was that? answer, around the same exact thing. and it was, was the $420,000 that you were going to receive back from mr. trump going to be payment for your future legal services as personal counsel? answer, that was what it was designed to be. question, what was it actually? answer, reimbursement of my money. question, it was repayment of which money? answer, it was a repayment of the stormy daniels payment. question, you said you believe this occurred at trump tower some days before mr. trump actually left for washington, is that right? answer correct.

did allen weisselberg have within this document, people's exhibit 35? he did. did he show this document to mr. trump? yes. michael cohen testifying for the first time that just before leaving to be inaugurated as president of the united states, donald trump reviewed the smoking gun document that laid out the crime. he then talked in detail about the crime with his cfo and with michael cohen and he said, "do it." he approved it. so, if there's anything in this case that is in just plainly black letter proven by the documents and records, if there's anything else that we've been waiting for in testimony from witnesses, this is probably it, right? it certainly wasn't all, there is a lot to say about what happened today, but let's start there. lawrence o'donnell, you were there today. >> the one other wizard we got

that is sequential here and important is donald trump at the time in october of 2016, the final days of the president campaign, directing michael cohen to make the payment to stormy daniels. he said he directed me to do it, we remember in michael cohen's federal indictment for this that everything he did was at the direction of individual one, who turns out to be donald trump. you have both his praises here. you have in today's testimony michael cohen say he directed me to do this to pay stormy daniels and then you have the payback, which occurs after the election. the agreement to the payback. i have to say, rachel, we were sitting there as this testimony was coming out and we have all seen the document already. and, michael cohen was able to

confirm, yes, that is my handwriting on the other side of the page, which, technically in the record had never been confirmed. the previous witness who introduced the document identified allen weisselberg's handwriting, saying i've been reading allen weisselberg's handwriting for 35 years. that is how that handwriting got in. it also got in today, the allen weisselberg piece when michael cohen said yes, i can identify that as allen weisselberg's handwriting because i saw him write it, which is about as good as his writing i.d. cards. then, michael cohen explains that is my writing over there, explaining to allen weisselberg what i needed. what we didn't know that was the next thing that was going to happen in the testimony is allen weisselberg and michael cohen are going to take that document down the hall and we were going to be in donald trump's office and michael cohen was telling us what donald trump said about this and he approved it and, as you put it, it was all there. that is where the final elements of what becomes the criminal charges all get put together is in that room. >> katie, you were there. >> it was elegant because the

prosecution had done such an effective job of gaining evidence entered in to the record because, remember, if it is not in the record, it can't be used. to lawrence's point, we saw this exhibit before, it had import through the former controller of the trump organization. to have the nuance added for michael cohen's testimony is what good trial lawyers do. you saw a well executed plan from the manhattan da to allow the introduction of certain cell phone records, text messages, emails, bank statements, it always the corroborating evidence that allowed michael cohen to stand on his own, on his own testimony and not have to worry that there was nothing underneath them in terms of a foundation to be able to talk about what happened because his credibility, as we know, will be an issue. but, we also didn't hear the week with very few objections

today. >> that was interesting in the transcript. >> no sidebars for incredibly aggressive defense we have seen, no objections. what was the import of that? it was a free-flowing, well paced, clean, sustained, direct examination today. michael cohen was afforded the opportunity to drive the narrative forward the way that the da office wanted him to do and the jury was taking notes intensely. at least three of them were feverishly taking notes and looking. that is the last thing i would say. the visual aid of having that exhibit displayed on the screen in addition to when the audio tape was played of the payments i secretly recorded donald trump thing accompanied by the transcript, it is so effective because jurors just sit and sit, as we do and then they see something and they feel the engagement. when they go to the jury room to deliberate, people's 35 is something they will tangibly have and they will look at the handwriting. more importantly, they will see it messes with the consultants, it matches with the 135, it matches the wire to keep davidson, everything fits. today, they left to recess today and the last thing they

heard was donald trump participating in the conspiracy. >> doesn't matter they don't have allen weisselberg testifying? he they are not going to have him testifying. does it matter that he can't testify yes that was my handwriting and yes i was in that room as well with trump and michael cohen and when michael cohen was speculating trump and i had talked about this before, here's the truth or the nonetruth of that, does that matter question >> no objections to speculation from the defense, asked michael cohen. number two, it has been independently verified and authenticated as the handwriting of allen weisselberg. bring a conviction printer and why don't you have donald trump to stand and explain what he really meant. if you feel you failed to refute the evidence, it states the evidence. >> i think the other part that was as black and white is the motive was established. he was the 16th or 17th witness. not one person has told a different story other than the

area between the drop of access hollywood and election day is in the pressure cooker that the candidate and campaign field to pay the $130,000.00. we have all this longer timeline and the longer arc on the catch and kill, which included the doorman and karen mcdougal. back in 2011, he was talking to the boss about running for president and the first thing the boss says is a lot of women will come out of the woodwork. michael cohen was a picture of lots of things but specifically infidelity. and women that came out and claimed infidelity. he was integrated into the campaign and the team at trump on that point. he was never a broke actor in handling accusations of infidelity. he was always working with others. >> to that point, i think the first person who told the story of middle-management michael

cohen was because david pecker and trump enter into the conspiracy to catch and kill. they are the innovators, the other founders. michael cohen is the guy that has to go make it all happen. he's frantically on the phone with his own banker. we heard that from gary fasso. he's on the phone with hope and all these other people but the conspirators is another sort of undisputed fact. >> there is no counter narrative about the other innocent explanation. >> i thought as we were listening to, reading this testimony of john bolton's line about rudy giuliani during the first inauguration, he said i want to have nothing to do with this drug deal they are cooking up over there, which is just, it is such basis and articulation of his lawyer senses that stuff is not aboveboard, what is happening over there and everything being described here is so clearly not aboveboard, it is, there is so much effort being done to do wrong here. and, when it comes to michael

cohen putting trump in the room, the question is, is that believable testimony? the other thing i thought about again today, which i thought all the way is trump is paying a crime nolte. because it is recorded as income, it is grossed up to double what it should be that he is going to pay this, this cheap dude is going to pay the crime penalty to hide the income. do you think a $130,000 was sent payment, is going to look at a $420,000 a resent statement and say close enough? no, someone has to walk through those numbers. if someone comes to you and says we did the dirt, we did the payment. here's my reimbursement, it's 420, not 130, someone has to go through the math on the paper where there's no way you are second-guessed to that. even a nonedonald trump is not saying yes to that. certainly not donald trump. >> he's a penny pincher.

>> that is the closest thing we had to a counter narrative from them. the counter narrative is rich people and celebrities, men, we are always present hush money. it's no crime. that has been the counter narrative. but that would be paying $130,000.00. >> and to have jeffrey mcconney testifying he got fired for a day or two because he didn't haggle down a bill. here's a great point, this is more than two times the price. >> when michael cohen says about trump that he tried to re- renegotiate this and you are getting the final agreement is going to pay, did you try to renegotiate? one word answer, no. >> it is because allen weisselberg has had the pre- meeting. you are not going to like this number but here's why it has to be this number. >> michael cohen is a witness for the prosecution in this criminal case against former president donald trump. today, what they started is what's called there direct examination. means prosecutors firing questions at their own witness.

that will continue into tomorrow, if not beyond. but, then the cross-examination of michael cohen will begin. that is when trump's defense lawyers will get to question michael cohen. some legal observers suggesting today that that expected cross- examination of michael cohen, which is now looming, that effectively might be the entirety of trump's defense. the defense is under no obligation to bring any witnesses to the stand, including trump himself. they may not try to mount any witnesses, any defense at all other than what they are going to do to michael cohen in trying to score points off of him and cross exam. how is it looking that might go for them now that we are seeing michael cohen on the stand? we have more on that and much more ahead on all of this, including why divorce lawyers all over the country had her ears turn right today in court. we will be right back with our

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testimony today from michael cohen putting former president donald trump in the room where michael cohen says they spelled out the details of the alleged crime. they spelled out this ruse of covering up the hush money payments, faking the records to make it look like legal fees for michael cohen to occlude the fact that what they were doing was making a campaign

expenditure. michael cohen today describing the document in which that was spelled out, setting that was discussed. that document was brought into trump's office and discussed in detail with trump and he approved it, looking at this same document the jury and all of us have now seen, describing the math behind this alleged crime. it was a sort of incandescent moment in this criminal trial of donald trump but it was hardly the only moment that will stick with folks from michael cohen's first day on the stand. as to whether there was a reason to approve the hush money payment other than to influence the campaign, whether there was some counter narrative that might explain that the hush money was being paid for some other reason other than to influence the campaign, michael cohen gave brand-new testimony about that today, that if nothing else will presumably warm the cockles of some divorce lawyers

heart somewhere. prosecutor. "after you learned from dylan howard and from keith davidson about the stormy daniels story, and wanted to publish that story, and the conversations about purchasing that story, did you speak to mr. trump?" "i did." "what is this also a serious matter at that time?" "a very serious matter." "did you tell him what would from dylan howard and keith davidson?" >> he was really angry with me. i thought you had this under control, i thought you took care of this. he expressed to me, there is a previous denial, meaning previously been able to work with stormy daniels to deny that any encounter took place when this first arose in 2011. just take care of it. there was a lot going on at the campaign at the time. he was like just take care of

it. "did he say anything to you at the time about how this might be viewed if it got out ?" "yes." "what did he say, in substance ?" "he said to me this is a disaster, total disaster. women are going to hate me. this is really a disaster. women will hate me. guys may think it's cool but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign." "what did you understand him to me by women will hate this and what was his concern?" trump defense lawyer todd blanche, "objection." the judge, "overruled." "so at the time, esther trump was polling very, very poorly with women. this coupled with the previous access hollywood tape, he just stated this is a disaster, get control over it." "did you have any additional conversation with mr. trump about a particular strategy about how to get control of it and how to deal with it?" "he told me to work with david

and get control over this, purchase the life rights. we need to stop this from getting out." "was there any conversation about pushing it to a period of time?" "yes." "what was that?" "during the negotiation to purchase and acquire the life rights, what he had said to me is what i want you to do is just push it out as long as you can. just get past the election because if i win, it has no relevance, i will be president. if i lose, i don't even care." "did you bring up at the time the topic of his wife in one of those conversations with mr. trump?" "i did." "what did you say, in substance to him?" i said to him, "how is things going to go with upstairs?" "were you concerned about that?" "i was." "what, if anything, did he say to you about that?" "don't worry, he goes. he goes how do you, how long do

you think i will be on the market for? not long." "what did you understand that to mean?" "he wasn't thinking about melania. this was all about the campaign." a few things nicolle wallace. women will hate me, guys may think that's cool. i'm going to leave that where it lies. what i want you to do is push it out as long as you can, get past the election. if it i win, it has no relevance, i will be president. if i lose, i don't even care. the six planes why they are not paying stormy daniels. them not paying almost results in them losing control of this story telling her story to abc news. michael cohen pays himself because they have almost lost it because they have been stringing it out. they want us to pass the election and then never pay her at all. then, the question about his wife, aren't you worried about your wife, what she will think?

michael cohen is describing a conversation with donald trump in which he is trying to elicit is there a reason for us to suppress this story other than the campaign and trump effectively says no. i don't care if she does, i don't care if she's mad. how long do you think i will be on the market for? not long. >> is not the first person to testify to trump's singular concern of the campaign. the other investigator and prosecutors that had access to david unfiltered, unlimited testimony was the southern district of new york and they found the same electric crime had taken place. they simply decided not to charge trump and him him individual one and describe its role as directed michael cohen. the facts are not in dispute by the other investigators that looked at this. no one who has come before this jury has systemwide to any motive other than the campaign. the real crisis, the thing that makes the stormy daniels payment different, in addition to the crimes that were committed in the fraudulent business records, is that this is one that happened in the compressed time and karen

mcdougal does,, it comes out of the monday before the election and you have all those conversations where trump is telling hope hicks what to do, hope hicks says i'm going to deny. they are hyperaware of the political damage and none of the misses that have said anything at trump being scared of melania. i had a source inside the debate prep when access hollywood dropped and he told me, he went upstairs with trump and melania was very distraught. no one knows anything about anyone's marriage that isn't in that marriage so i have no idea. i don't think trump went upstairs alone. i think debate prep ended and a subset of that group went upstairs to the residence to deal with the statement, to deal with melania. a group of them came from, i don't think reince priebus went because his boat was to dump trump on the ticket. a few of them went upstairs from debate prep, which was in trump tower. melania was reportedly crying. we don't know why she was

crying. she know, was she mad at him for it getting out? who knows. is concerned about her were very distant second. his political concerns about being what he's always afraid of being, a loser. >> chris, at the opening statement, trump's defense counsel did say, did suggest that the recent trump was being this is money was the response rolled out some of the way that it did, despite the parts that they deny is because he did what anybody would have done. he's trying to avoid embarrassment, with the implication being he was trying to avoid the embarrassment to his family on this. it does seem to be repeatedly rebutted by multiple witnesses in this case. >> one thing that is a little unclear to me, i have referenced this before, the john edwards case in which they use that as defense, that when he was under trial, federal trial for campaign-finance violations, for paying off hush money, that it was fundamentally about protecting his wife, you might remember was cancer stricken and had a much more plausible case that

that was the case. what i want to understand is the, what the standard is for the jury on this aspect of the claim. meaning, like, they clearly falsified business records. there clearly was a hush money payment. there's a huge amount of paper transaction. the motive to it, we have multiple witnesses saying it was about the campaign and not melania but there's not the same kind of, there's stuff in the evidentiary record. it is not a bank statement that says about the campaign. my question is how much whatever fuzziness a juror might feel about whether that is is firmly established as other things effects whether you can find him guilty. >> we all are now familiar with the intricacies of new york law, that the reason this is a felony and not be misdemeanor, you can be charged with misdemeanor falsification of business records, you with a felony falsification of business records when it is used to commit or conceal the commission of another crime but you don't have to prove the

crime beyond a reasonable doubt. if the crime is influencing the election, it is an illegal campaign expenditure. they don't, what is the standard? it doesn't have to be beyond a reasonable doubt. >> it is a great question. i think a lot of people went into today's testimony if you are rooting for the prosecution, hoping to have the clarity from michael cohen's testimony. so, the underlying misdemeanors of falsification of business records is the layup, as chris says. but, for what purpose? that is what elevates to be felony. the secondary offense, the subject defensive why would you want to falsify those business records, you don't have to prove that a fence behind and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. >> you just have to point out that this is what we think it is? >> that is why you are hearing the campaign component so heavily here. you are not hearing as much of the side of it, you are hearing

the campaign because that is the theory that the prosecution got up in opening and said is what the crime is., that standard seems to me, watching this all develop, too much a lot. i do think if you were to ask me how much of this, they have established beyond a reasonable doubt so far the misdemeanors. clearly this was fraudulent. they clearly covered up this thing. that is clear. i think they have also established that it was for the campaign. have they established it in my mind to the same level of rock solid beyond a reasonable doubt as the other thing? i would probably say no so far. >> having the testimony from michael cohen saying that trump was in the room when they talk about the falsification coming that get you there. >> these things, it can be both. that is the most important part. the jurors can think he did it for both reasons. as long as the campaign is one of them, and certainly if it is the dominant one and then the case is made. they don't have to completely exclude some sort of motivation involving his wife. however, the evidence, this is

really important, the evidence so far has excluded melania. michael cohen, under oath, in evidence said he wasn't thinking about melania. you cannot get a clearer statement than that. this will be important. the judge will instruct on this, the thing the trump lawyers said in the opening is evidence. everything the witnesses said is evidence. the defense attorneys cross- examination, questions, on hot evidence. what the cross-examination questions are going to be you like about that, didn't you? michael cohen is going to go no and that you lied about it isn't evidence. they cannot and will not put donald trump on the witness stand is the only person alive who can present evidence against what michael cohen has said. that is, it has to be trump's saying and never told him to do it and i absolutely did not reimburse him. that was, i was paying him to

be my lawyer. trump would have to give you that in direct testimony from the defense. is not going to be the likelihood is you are going to go to the jury with nothing but the evidence presented by the prosecution. >> you think it is a 0% chance trump testifies question >> zero. it always has been. >> when we come back, we will look at what michael cohen had to say about the rest of trump world by name as he made the case he did not act alone. we will also, surprisingly, to my mind at least, we will be talking about the other appearances of the former first lady in today's trial testimony. boy did that one come as a surprise. we will have that portion of the transcript for you and an explanation, when we come back. stay with us. ay with us. e. with low cost ground shipping from the united states postal service. ♪♪ right now you can get a free footlong at subway.

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welcome back to our primetime recap of the criminal trial of former president donald trump. prosecutor "i would like to direct your attention now to october 7th 2016, do you remember where you were that day?" michael cohen, "yes." question, "where were you?" "i was in london." "why do you remember you were in london?" when you were in london, did you become aware of the release of the access hollywood.? answer, guess.

how did you become aware of the tape coming out? answer, i received a phone call. "who did you receive a phone call from?" "hope hicks." "who was hope hicks at the time?" "hope hicks risk mitigation director for the trump campaign." "do you remember receiving an email about the release of the access hollywood?" "yes." "who was steve bannon at the time?" "campaign manager for the trump campaign" "recognizes email? >> i do. >> does it relate to the access hollywood tape? "it does." "can you explain to the jury what you recognize the bottom email to be?" "it is to hope hicks with the subject matter of urgent. washington post query." "just in general, what is he communicating to hope hicks and what is he asking for?" "he's asking for comment in regard to the leak of the tape." "is there a transcript attached to the email to hope hicks?"

"there is." "does hope hicks forward that email to some other folks," "she does." "what does she say in the email she forwards onto folks involved in the campaign?" "wait to hear the tape to be sure. then followed by deny, deny, deny." "question, does that get forwarded? does that get forwarded by steve bannon on to you?" "yes,." "you were in london, did you of calls with hope hicks about this matter?" "i did." "at one point, did mr. trump join a call with yourself and hope hicks," "yes." "did you have a separate call with mr. trump on october 8, 2016?" "yes." "do you have a separate memory of where you were when you were these phone calls?"

"i was with my family and friends in london." "are you having dinner?" "i was." "what if any discussion do you remember with mr. trump about the tape in the strategy for dealing with it?" "he wanted me to recharge my contact with the medium. we needed to put a spin on this. the spin that he wanted to put on it was that this is locker room talk. something that melania had recommended ." "at least he told me that is what melania thought it was and use that to get control of the story and minimize its impact on him and the campaign." "what , if anything, did you do to try to assist the campaign with that for?" "i reached out to members of the media." he told her that, he is told him michael cohen the locker room talk defense, which became the defense, that spin about what the access hollywood tape was all about, michael cohen

says trump told him it was his wife's idea that it was melania's phrase, locker room talk . the other thing that is important about this exchange, besides that bizarre assertion is that it shows that michael cohen was not a rogue employee. he was not a solo operator, especially on issues like, as nicolle wallace points out, items related to alleged invalidity. michael cohen was part of the team if not leading the team response. that was made clear in this printed exhibit that was filed for the first time in court today. this is right before the election. the election was november 8, this was november 4th. this email exchange between hope hicks and michael cohen shows hope hicks trying out different types of denials that she wants to issue potentially

to "the wall street journal," about the story they are about to run about these alleged infidelities and the cover above them. she's running these proposed denials by michael cohen. michael cohen response with his own. he says, "instead, say this. these accusations are completely untrue and just the latest despicable attempt by the liberal media and the clinton machine to --" prosecutors throughout this trial have not just allowed, they have basically invited testimony from earlier witnesses, including from hope hicks, invited these witnesses to disparage or say how much they didn't like or didn't respect michael cohen. today, they showed the receipts of him not operating alone, of him being totally part of team trump, responding to allegations about trump, being consulted at the highest levels about what the response should be, specifically he was a key part of the whole team response when it came to allegations from women. how does that part of his testimony today and this evidence introduced today help the prosecution? >> i am endlessly intrigued by

the sinister role hope hicks played behind the scenes. other than bill barr, there's no one whose reputation has been more successfully laundered before, during, after the trump years then hope hicks. she gets a transcript of access hollywood, she's in the room where trump is talking about himself in the third person, she says of course we are going to deny, deny, deny. the first thing she writes when "wall street journal," talks about karen mcdougal, she says deny. her responses are more nasty. michael cohen added her down. hope hicks is the surprise, it shouldn't be a surprise but a really sharp although paid liger for donald trump. michael quinn is a moderating force on the public statements of the campaign, which is stunning. the melania thing i heard at the time and melania goes out and does an interview where she

says that. she says it in an interview. i can't remember if it is in his hostage statement that might. i can't remember if he uses it but she does an interview. somehow they get her to do an interview and she was at that line in an interview that she does. i think it may be after the debate so maybe four days after the tape is dropped but that is their line and, tragically, because the other story stays assignment, you know, in their minds, they think it does work. >> lawrence. >> we melania question is kind of important on this point because melania will, through the questioning of the defense, they will try to use her as a reason donald trump wanted these things do not come out. what you are seeing there is melania, this testimony will be uncontested, donald trump will not take the witness stand and say melania didn't say that, she's not going to take the witness stand and say she didn't say that. it will be uncontested in the record.

this is melania trump after seeing how donald trump brags about his favorite set of sexual assault but this is worse than what you are learning about stormy daniels, this is worse than what you are learning about karen mcdougal and this portrays melania trump as a team player in the cover- up, let's get our guy through it, which means why would you ever worry about melania trump when the stormy daniels story comes along? >> which matters if the defense is going to count on putting in a mind of a single juror a counter narrative that makes this whole hush money and falsification of business records scheme something that is innocent because it wasn't criminal, it was just designed to protect melania trump, just designed to protect the family rather than influence the campaign. if that is what they are going

to try to do, it seems very hard to do that given the testimony about misses trump's own contributions to this defense and to what trump claimed about how he didn't care about whether she knew. >> here's how a defense would do that. they would put the wife on the witness stand. she would be in tears saying this questioning, this was devastating. when i learned the stormy daniels news, it was the most horrible day of my life. that is on the way a fence would get back into a case like this. >> or she would be there. she would be sitting behind him every day of the trial, showing her support even if she doesn't understand that her absence screams of volumes of a lack of a belief in donald trump. >> our primetime recap of the only criminal trial in history of an american president continues right after the break. we have much more to come. stay with us. ay with us. o it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app.

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♪♪ welcome back to our msnbc prime time recap of the criminal trial of former president donald trump. i'm here with my colleagues ari melber and katie phang and chris hayes from msnbc along with susanne craig from "the new york times." today the prosecution called its 20th and likely its final witness. trump's longtime lawyer and, quote, unquote, fixer, michael cohen. michael cohen today told the jury that trump personally approved and directed the hush money payment to an adult film actress and director in 2016,

including the false pretense of structuring the payment as if it was a set of legal fees when it wasn't. cohen testified today that trump did this explicitly to protect his presidential campaign from the damage her story would cause, that it was not paid to protect his family or his wife from any embarrassment. this blockbuster testimony defined the official court action inside the court. the direct examination of cohen will continue tomorrow. the cross-examination will then begin thereafter, and then we expect lots of fireworks at that point. but today outside the court, trump made his own bid for attention with the help from some of his -- friends? do we call them friends? possible running mates? political allies? i don't know. as he always does on his way into court, this morning the former president himself stopped in front of cameras to spend a few minutes denouncing the trial. but if you look over his right shoulder, are those familiar

faces? yes, they are. in front of donald trump's adult son eric -- he's the blond one standing in the back there -- there are two republican united states senators, j.d. vance of ohio, and tommy tuberville of alabama. those two senators came along with a republican congresswoman from staten island and two republican state attorneys general, one from alabama, one from i think iowa, to keep donald trump company. this is becoming kind of a thing in republican politics, to make a pilgrimage to trump's trial. last week it was republican senator rick scott. he's up for re-election this year in trump's adopted home state of florida. nbc news has confirmed that former republican presidential candidate viveking ramaswamy will join trump in court tomorrow. okay. and the craven desperate politics of all this is embarrassing to everybody who's watching it. many of these folks are

obviously hoping for gigs in what they hope will be a second trump administration. j.d. vance, in particular, is desperate to be considered for trump's vice president. but when senator vance and senator tuberville left the courtroom today after a couple of hours and headed for the cameras themselves, they made sure to tell everybody that they were only there to support their dear, dear friend in need. >> i'm here for the simple reason to show support for a friend. luckily the president's supporters should know that he's actually in great spirits despite the circumstances of this. >> i'm here today to represent and to pay my respects to what president trump is going through. it's a tough time for him. that courtroom is depressing. this is new york city, the icon of our country, and we've got a courtroom that's the most depressing thing i've ever been in. mental anguish is trying to be pushed on the republican candidate for the president of the united states this year. that's all this is.

republican candidate for president of the united states is going through mental anguish in a courtroom that's very depressing, very depressing. >> there is a little-known constitutional amendment which requires a playful mobile to be put above criminal defendants in courtrooms that are particularly depressing. it's like a subset of the -- at one point senator vance voiced his concern that donald trump was being made to feel, quote, lonely because he isn't seeing crowds of supporters every day outside the courthouse. that's because they're not there. but the senators and the rest of the gaggle of republican officials who were at the courthouse today, they all echoed one of trump's most common complaints about his trial, which is that it's keeping him off the campaign trail. >> he should be out on the campaign trail, but of course he's here with this trial. >> our president trump is tied up in court when he should be out on the campaign trail. >> this is simply an effort to

keep donald trump in new york city so he can't go out and speak to the people of this country about why he should be re-elected as president. >> i should be out campaigning now instead of sitting in a very cold courthouse all day long. >> it's not that cold. donald trump should be out campaigning. he should be out barnstorming the swing states. that's what, of course, he would be doing if he were not trapped at this trial. that's the line, right? here's the problem. it is true that trump is required to be in court when it is in session. he is, after all, a criminal defendant. but that's only maximum four days a week. sometimes it's only three days a week. and on those other days when court isn't in session, the former president is mostly not campaigning. most of his non-trial days, he's been hanging out at his club in florida or staying home in new york or new jersey, as is his right. but it remains this strange and easily disprovable thing that

trump and his allies and, quote, friends are constantly saying, that he would be out campaigning if he weren't in court. that is easily disproven by the observable fact that when he is not in court, he is mostly not doing that. to be fair, he did have one big rally this weekend in new jersey. that is a state that has not voted for a republican for president since 1988. but, hey, hope springs eternal. it does have the advantage of being a quick hop, skip, and a jump from trump's new york apartment, so maybe that was the reason he did it. the but meanwhile, president biden is running what you may call counterprogramming. president biden is actually doing what trump says he wants to be doing. he is hitting the swing states repeatedly. joe biden even hit trump's backyard in florida last month. while trump has made his trial the centerpiece of his campaign, now to the point where republicans have to come and sit in court with him in order to show their support, president biden basically never mentions

the trial. he barely even mentions who his opponent in the election is. he talks of his administration's accomplishments. he talked up how his accomplishments will help the people of whatever swing state he's in. like much of the biden presidency, it feels like an act of radical normalcy in the face of what's going on on the other side of american politics and now the other side of the presidential contest. whatever else can be said about this presidential election, the two candidates are running wildly different campaigns, and especially on a day like this, it feels like they are running frankly on wildly different planets. let's bring in our colleague jen psaki. she's the host of "inside with jen psaki" on msnbc. she's the veteran of many campaigns. she's former white house press secretary for president biden. jen, thank you so much for being with us tonight. >> thank you. >> i wanted to make sure we were able to talk to you. let me ask you. i feel like there was this pretrial sort of pundit-ocracy

common wisdom that trump was not only going to sell a lot of merch with his mug shot on the merch, but this was going to be a political bonanza for him. i feel like to the extent that we can see anything in the polling, it's showing that the trial isn't changing things much one way or the other in terms of views of either of the two candidates. how are the politics of this trial being made manifest? >> well, we don't know yet. i will say one additional detail you didn't mention but is my favorite from last wednesday, is that trump spent time dining with people who spent about $10,000 on nfts, and they got to get a piece of his suit and a piece of his tie. that's how he spent the day campaigning, so there you go. i think on the polling of it, it hasn't impacted people yet. we know from polling we've seen that if he is convicted, the polling has showed that it could impact people and how they view him. we will see. but if you look at the contrast here, rachel, i mean joe biden is out there. i think one of the best things

he's done recently is that event in wisconsin, where he basically went to a state and went to a place, foxconn, where trump made a promise about jobs that he couldn't deliver on, didn't deliver on. that had a little edge to it. you need a little edge to break through these days. so that was a good thing. but there's got to be more of that too in order for biden to continue to kind of make progress in this campaign. the most -- and you touched on this and went over it. this is the thing that stuck out to me so much about today is this sort of sideshow, but it's not a sideshow of these senators. it's so strange seeing j.d. vance and tommy tuberville in new york. it was like a where's waldo moment? like there they are. oh, there they are in back of him at this press conference. but it tells you so much because as you said, not only did they stand there, they went out afterwards and they put out things on social media because they're looking for approval from trump. and that adds to what we've seen over the last couple of weeks, which is, one, people who want to be the vice presidential running mate or in the cabinet,

confirming they don't think trump lost the election in 2020. two, we've started to see a number of people in the last couple of weeks on a number of shows suggest they might not respect the outcome of the election in 2024. that's replaying the game again. and this is the third piece. we're going to see vivek tomorrow. how crazy will that be? i don't know yet. we will see. that is a piece of this that tells you so much about his own political power, even if we're not clear about where the polls between the two candidates are going to be at the end of this trial yet. >> can i just -- i mean if you, like, imagineer a world in which republican politics is not rotating around the axis of donald trump, what are the politics? what's the political impact of these sitting senators and very ambitious republican politicians making sure that they are seen inside of what they are decrying as a very depressing new york city courtroom? i mean they're putting themselves in state criminal court as a way of trying to get themselves before the american people so that this is where we

imagine them. i mean this is just -- it may be one thing to try to get trump's favor. >> mm-hmm. >> but this exists in its own right in terms of how they are displaying themselves, how they want us to think of their milieu in politics, and how they want us to think of them when it comes to criminal defendants in the criminal process. >> well, they think it's a winner for them politically to some degree, to hug and to align themselves with trump. and perhaps in their states, it is. the you know, j.d. vance, he's not up for re-election this year. tommy tuberville, he does a lot of crazy things, but he's alabama. trump is quite popular there, right? so for them, it might be a win among their constituents. but it also tells you that, that they don't think that standing by and attending the criminal trial of a former president, who by the way is there because of his role in paying hush money to a former adult film star, that that's not going to hurt them politically, that it won't result in a primary race per their assessment, that it only

helps them among the base. that tells you so much about kind of where the republican party and the base of the republican party is. the other thing -- and you've talked about this a lot as well over the course of time on your show -- is it also tells you that these people are saying, i know that you had enablers in 2020. i'm raising my hand. i'm happy to be there and enable you in 2024 should you want to question the outcome of the election, whatever the outcome -- you know, if you lose the election. that's what they're -- that's the message they're sending by being will and by answering questions, as many have over the past couple of weeks, suggesting they won't necessarily commit to respecting the outcome of the election. >> that's right. they're saying, put me in, coach, when it comes time to try to subvert american democracy, potentially do something that is criminal in order to hold on to power, against the constitution, against democratic principles. i want you to call on me, and i'm willing to stand with you in the criminal doctor in order to do it. it's the law and order party

obviously. >> mm-hmm. >> jen psaki, thank you so much for joining us. much appreciated. as i mentioned at the top, joining us now, susanne craig from "the new york times," and ari melber, our esteemed legal correspondent here. michael cohen, to me, following the reporting today, looking at the transcript once it came out, i feel like he really is functioning as a summation witness. it's not just about michael cohen's own role in the plot. it feels like he's telling us everything that happened. he's giving us the whole story. does it feel that way in court? >> it did. it's interesting he's coming at the end, and i saw it a little bit differently because while he did that, they also kept him very much to the evidence. he was a corroborating witness for a lot of testimony that has come. >> mm-hmm. >> so what he said today, some of it was familiar. i think that's a good thing because his credibility is going to be questioned on cross. he also spoke to the documents.

you know, we heard that not only did donald trump instruct the payment to stormy daniels get made, but then they went in, and they talked about it in the office. so he had some additional testimony along those lines because the documents -- and he's going to speak to some of them, i think, tomorrow. but they don't get you to intent. but i really do feel they wanted michael to come in and really d i just think come in and back up a lot of what's been heard. i found that the testimony today was incredibly quick. there were so many yes/no questions. >> just fast paced. >> they weren't creating a narrative like they did with david pecker at the beginning. david pecker was an incredible tour guide through all of it. michael cohen, it was very fast, and sometimes we were having even trouble keeping track of the dates. it was yes, no, yes, no. if we got to a meeting, boy, did we want to know something more about that meeting. there was no, can you elaborate more on that? i think they know what's coming

on cross, and they don't want him to say anything outside of the four corners -- >> oh, they're limiting what he says so that it can't be torn apart. >> i really felt they were. he became more comfortable once he got up on the stand, but he was very nervous at first. so i felt they kept him moving. i actually thought they wanted to finish today. it was going that quickly. obviously we're going to head into tomorrow with more direct. but then the cross is going to open. i just don't think they wanted to to open the door for anything because they know the storm that's coming. >> ari, in terms of looking ahead to the cross, you had a guest on today who was very bullish on the defense and said that, you know, michael cohen is going to get destroyed on cross-examination. he also repeatedly called you airy. i was like, is he actually trying to start a fight with ari right here? is this going to be a fisticuffs moment on msnbc? so, airy, it was a weird thing.

looking ahead toward that cross-examination, do you feel like michael cohen has a glass jaw here, that he has shown himself to be vulnerable in a way that is inviting a real beating from the defense? >> not glass, but maybe recently smelt clay. >> okay. >> he has some holes, and i think they will get to that. and the lawyer you mentioned defended donald trump at the second impeachment, which if you're picking, is the worst one. so that's where he was coming from, although i was happy to get his views because it's interesting. i think the issue for michael cohen on cross will be overall credibility, because they will get into the criminal record and the story did change. and then raising doubt that he might have gone rogue. the he went rogue story is farfetched, but they don't need to prove it. they just need to raise the doubt that it could be true. i did think, to echo what we were just discussing, there have been days where defendant trump looked unseemly, certainly did not look relatable, looked

untrustworthy. i thought today, michael cohen and the way they did this testimony, this is the day that donald trump looked most like a criminal. i thought it was a very bad day for him because his own lawyer, who famously went to prison, very clearly provided the timeline of a proactive plan to allegedly commit a crime. >> it sounded familiar, too, because we've had all these other witnesses come in. and i thought that's what was effective today. most of the things he said, the jury's heard it before. they've heard a piece of it here and there. and i thought that's what was effective about today's testimony. it's not him going rogue. >> katie, let me ask you a piece of this. as a lawyer, looking at the way the prosecution is making this case, one of the things we got today over and over again was donald trump doesn't pay his bills. we got that a whole bunch of different ways. we got michael cohen was first hired at a lawyer at the trump organization after he was working for another law firm, submitted a bill for $100,000

for those legal fees, and trump didn't want to pay them, and said, i'm not going to pay that bill. come work for me instead. michael cohen never goes back to his office. they send trump organization employees to clean out that office, and the bill disappears, and michael cohen becomes his employee. michael cohen's first big coup working as trump's lawyer is stiffing the vendors and suppliers to trump university. michael cohen almost loses the karen mcdougal hush money arrangement because they don't want to pay karen mcdougal. michael cohen almost loses the stormy daniels hush money arrangement because they don't want to pay stormy daniels. michael cohen ultimately gets back some of his money that he paid to a technical services firm in his final payments because that firm was also stiffed by -- >> two years prior. >> by donald trump. we get the recording that was played for the jury because michael cohen has to cover up for donald trump stiffing ami on the payment for karen mcdougal.

so he's making the recording to assure ami, eventually we'll pay you. all of these are a cascading series of screwing people, for lack of a better term, in terms of their bills. why are they giving us that as a pattern? >> because it speaks to the ebenezer scrooge energy of donald trump. >> but why is that bad for the defense? why is that good for the prosecution? >> it's good for the prosecution because it shows that donald trump is a miserly person who will always count his pennies. to chris' point earlier that you cannot present a $420,000 approved invoice for essential consultants llc a la michael cohen when when all he did was front $130,000. but what you just did right now, you proved how effective michael cohen is. think about this. donald trump always said famously, where's my roy cohn?

there's a reason why he wanted roy cohn. roy cohn was indicted four times. roy cohn also represented john gotti. if michael cohen was so bad at his job, trump would never have kept him around. >> right. >> because of the effectiveness of him dealing with the cheapness of donald trump, donald trump kept michael cohen, and that's the reason why donald trump never wanted a good attorney. he tested michael cohen with that bill from michael cohen's original firm. >> to put it in a sentence, they're saying donald trump wouldn't pay $400,000 unless he authorized it. >> right, because the defense is going to be cohen/weisselberg went rogue and this penny pinching thing is going to come up. was he or not because the defense is -- i think their main thing is those two went rogue. >> much more to come in our

coverage of the trump criminal trial today in new york, including what happened when michael cohen asked donald trump directly about what happened with stormy daniels. the answer cohen says he got, which the defense is not going to like and is not going to want to explain, and more when we come back. stay with us. looking for a smarter way to mop? try the swiffer powermop. ♪♪ an all-in-one cleaning tool that gives you a mop and bucket clean in half the time ♪♪ our cleaning pad has hundreds of scrubbing strips that absorb and lock dirt away, ♪♪ and it has a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can't. so, you can clean your home, faster than ever. ♪♪

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welcome back to our prime-time recap of the criminal

trial of former president donald trump. prosecutor -- i will take you back for a minute now to 2011, when you, mr. cohen, first learned about stormy daniels' account of her encounter with mr. trump. had you learned at that time in 2011 about what ms. daniels did for a living? michael cohen -- i did. prosecutor -- what did you hear at that time in 2011 about what she did for work? cohen -- that she was an adult film star. prosecutor -- and this came up again, i think you mentioned, because it was an article on the dirty.com at the time? cohen -- correct. question -- and you worked with keith davidson to get that article taken down? answer, yes ma'am. question, in 2011 when you were engaged in getting the article taken down, did you have a conversation with mr. trump about stormy daniels? answer, yes. question, can you tell us the gist of that conversation? answer, after i received the information from dylan howard, i immediately went to mr. trump's office, knocked on the door, and said, boss, i got to speak to you. and i told him about the

conversation, the sum and substance of the conversation that i just had with dylan howard. and i asked him, meaning i asked trump, if he knew who she was. he told me that he did. and i stated about the story that existed on the dirty.com, that they'd had a relationship that occurred during a golf outing going back to, like, 2006. and i told him that one of the things that, you know, we need to do is we need to obviously take care of it. question, did mr. trump also tell you anything about having met her at the golf tournament back in 2006? answer, yes. question, what did he tell you? answer, he told me that he was playing golf with big ben roethlisberger, the football player. and they had met stormy daniels and others there, but she liked mr. trump, that women prefer trump even over someone like big ben. question, and did you ask him at that time, in 2011, whether he had had a sexual encounter with stormy daniels? answer, i did. question, did he answer you directly? answer, no, ma'am.

question, did he mention anything about what she looked like? answer, he said she was a beautiful woman. quick break for a shower, and we're back. this adds to the litany of testimony at the trial thus far that supports at least circumstantially the contention that stormy daniels was not lying, that a sexual interaction did happen between her and donald trump. why do we have so much testimony to that end in this trial, and what does it do, if anything, for the prosecution's case, chris? >> well, i think first of all, that little detail about roethlisberger really leapt off the page when i read it today because that part of stormy daniels' testimony, that he introduces her to roethlisberger and she has to sort of push him out of her room the next night. we also know that ben roethlisberger settled a civil claim for sexual assault with a woman who says that he sexually

assaulted her, which he denies, at that same government tournament in a different year. so there's that part of it, which is -- >> it was the same government tournament? >> it was the same golf tournament, different year. the same place. so that lights up, i think, the memory of the jurors in terms of corroborating. like everyone's going to remember if ben roethlisberger is around and trump's going to talk about it, and stormy daniels is going to talk about it. the other thing is that, again, the underlying facts here being corroborated do seem really important in terms of the motive for covering it up. i do think you would be more concerned about a true allegation than a false one probably. and particularly a true allegation that there might be other people around who could have corroborated it, like if you're palling around at a golf tournament. so it seems to me that establishes that. >> katie. >> we always look for pattern and practice when we talk about legal concepts. the common denominator that we're hearing is the doorman

allegedly had a story about donald trump fathering a love child. that's a sex act. karen mcdougal had a years-long affair with donald trump allegedly. that's a sex act. stormy daniels had a one-night stand with donald trump allegedly. that's a sex act. it's all the common denominator of something that donald trump, theoretically according to him, just being locker room talk, you wouldn't be ashamed about that, right? it just completely feeds into the idea that he was doing all of this hush money payments for gino all the way to stormy, to make sure once he made it into the white house, according to him what did he say? which is why he booted michael cohen when he made it to the white house. he didn't need michael cohen anymore because he made it across the finish line. >> can i just note something because it stuck out to me today when i was following it, which is that it's also the case that way before he's even running for office in 2011, when the article ends up on the dirty.com, aptly

named, that he's like we got to get it taken down. there's a certain level of reputational protection. >> yes. >> that's happening in the background. now, they're not paying money for it. i think that, to me, what so stands out. you could want to suppress that stuff for non-campaign reasons and clearly did in 2011. to me what's so distinguishing about the scheme is -- >> timing. >> -- as given by the prosecutors is the timing and amount of money at stake. >> i would put it a little even more simply. he's on trial for lying. >> right. >> that's what fraud is. business fraud is lying and then in service of what, a campaign crime. so we talk about low information voters sometime. there's that term, people who aren't following the news every night like we are. jurors are supposed to be low information citizens. >> right. >> if they're super high

information, they're probably not on. the other thing happening here is very simple. most of these jurors have not followed all of this really closely. maybe they know michael cohen's name. they probably don't know karen mcdougal's name or david pecker's name or many other names we've been following. so for low-information jurors, if you can show this is trump's chosen environment, and these are the stream of lies, and some of the lies were not crimes, and that's okay. you're going to get instructions on that. this has got to be fair to the defendant. and some of the alleged lies are alleged crimes because you can't just go around and take 130k and call it 420 and lie to the government and cheat. you're not allowed to do that. >> susanne, as you're watching this day after day, that's a very good point, ari, about how you're not only picking people who aren't the highest information people, but the jurors are instructed do not watch any news about this. do not watch the msnbc recap of this. do not pay attention to any

discussion about this. only focus on what is being given to you as evidence in this courtroom. seeing it laid out in the courtroom, is it cogent? >> it is. it's a powerful story. i actually still come back to david pecker and what a great tour guide he was at the beginning because he was able to lay it out from beginning to end, and he spoke to trump. so he was talking to trump. he sort of -- michael cohen was sort of the go-between, and i think he effectively set him up at the beginning. then we get to the end now, and we've got michael cohen. i keep thinking when you were talking about the jury today, one thing we haven't talked about is the tape that came in where you've got donald trump talking about the payment. and he's like, pay it in cash. and michael cohen's like, no, no, no. and the reason that he was like, no, no, no, he explained it today, because he wanted to have a record so that it could look like a legitimate business transaction. >> he thought it would look too dodgy if it was a suitcase full of money. >> then he explains i was taping

it because he -- according to him, he wasn't taping it because he didn't trust all the participants, which maybe he shouldn't have. he was taping it so he could tell david pecker that he was going to deliver on this. >> that trump intended to pay him. he keeps telling me he's going to pay you. i'll secretly tape him saying it. >> it's just a good reminder that it's michael cohen narrating a lot of things, including tapes with donald trump. >> we're going to try to turn around that tape in just a moment. that was me talking to the control room. breaking the wall here just for a second. you guys, can we get that tape? more of our recap in just a moment. now we come to the telephone records, another woman whose story threatened to tank the trump campaign. we've still got lots more ahead from michael cohen's testimony today. stay with us. do it... undo it, with the pepto that's right for you. ♪ pepto has berry fast melts ♪ ♪ cherry chewables ♪ ♪ liquicaps ♪ ♪ that make relief easy. ♪ ♪♪

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welcome back to our recap of the criminal trial of former president donald trump. one of the things that happened today in michael cohen's testimony is that he described the circumstances under which he made a recording of himself speaking to his boss, speaking to donald trump. it was a recording of an in-person meeting. he walked into trump's office with the voice notes app on his phone recording, while he either held his phone or had it in his pocket or near his pocket. the reason he said he made the recording is because david pecker from american media

expected to be paid back $150,000 that american media had advanced to a woman named karen mcdougal who claimed she had had a long affair with donald trump. ami as part of its alleged scheme with donald trump to suppress negative information about him in order to benefit his campaign, had paid mcdougal ostensibly to do some work for their magazine empire, but really so that they would own the life rights to that story about donald trump and make sure that that story never saw the light of day. now, at some point after ami had advanced that money, cohen and trump, according to trump -- excuse me -- according to cohen, decided that they would purchase those rights from ami. they would effectively reimburse ami for having made that outlay of cash, but in so doing, they would buy those life rights themselves and, for a while, they talked about including in

that purchase price the treasure chest of information that american media had accumulated over time about the life and loves of donald trump. a locked drawer reportedly full of information about trump. they thought for their $150,000, they could get the karen mcdougal rights. they could get all the trump stuff. they wanted to get that information because cohen testified today that david pecker, they believed, was going to get a different job at time incorporated. he was going to leave. that would mean david pecker, their friend and protector, the member of this conspiracy with them, was going to leave behind at ami all of that information about trump in that locked drawer. wouldn't that be terrible? somebody else might get it. wouldn't it be better if we owned that ourselves? so here's michael cohen and donald trump in a recording that cohen made without trump knowing in a meeting in trump's office. >> i've spoken to allen

weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with -- >> so, what do we got to pay for this? one-fifty? -- funding. yes, and it's all the stuff. >> yeah, i was thinking about that. >> all the stuff. i'm all over that. i spoke to allen about it. when it comes time for the financing -- >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay him something. >> we'll pay with cash. >> no, no, no. i got it. >> no, no, no, not cash. check. why a check? let's bring into the conversation our colleague, lisa rubin. also katherine christian, former district attorney at the manhattan d.a's office. let me ask you if i characterized the context of that recording correctly? >> yeah. >> and when they say pecker might get hit by a truck, what they mean is pecker might no longer be the custodian of what we believe is negative information about trump, so we

should own that ourselves? >> correct. >> okay. why does -- or is it clear to you why it matters that trump is suggesting making this payment in cash even though cohen argues against that? >> well, for starters, trump doesn't want a record of it. the exact same reasons that cohen is saying, let's cut a check because i want to protect trump with a record is the very same reason that donald trump is begging him to use cash, because he wants no one to know about it at all. but i think the larger import of the tape is not about the cash or check. it's about situating donald trump at the center of this scheme and showing that not only did he join the conspiracy, but that he was involved in each and every plan to execute on that conspiracy by repaying for karen mcdougal's settlement on one hand and then, later on, paying stormy daniels himself. >> when you talk about paying for something in a way that is untraceable or communicating about something in a way that is

untraceable, is that to a jury or, you know, to a court of law? is that potentially evidence of knowledge of criminality? >> i think it is. again, let's remember that here, what the actual crime that's being alleged here is falsification of business records. >> mm-hmm. >> so this tape doesn't necessarily move the needle about the falsification in donald trump's own knowledge and involvement in that. on the other hand, it shows its his motive to be involved in that cover-up because he was directly involved in the crime itself. >> right. okay. so this goes to a larger point we've been talking about tonight, all of us, which is there is no viable -- if the prosecution is doing its job, there is no viable counternarrative that michael cohen was acting alone, that trump had no idea any of this was happening. rather, the prosecution is presenting a picture of michael cohen's actions as situated and connected to and integral with trump's own actions, right,

katherine? >> and it also goes to intent, and the judge is going to instruct the jury that the definition of intent, it was the defendant's conscious objective to cause a result. so motive, intent, consciousness of guilt. what gets me about this relationship, it wasn't an attorney-client relationship. it was a master-servant, no offense to mr. cohen. of course these weren't legal expenses because this was not really an attorney. the prosecution will probably not argue that, but this really was not an attorney-client relationship. >> i don't know. again, we keep coming back to this idea that you don't -- you know, the burden of proof, constitutionally, is on the prosecution. i just feel line -- and, again, maybe i'm thinking of this in a way that's not the median juror because i'm exposed in a different way to it. but i do need something to hang on to that's an alternate story for all this stuff. i mean you could raise doubts about it -- >> in order to empathize with the defense? >> in order to think it wasn't exactly what it looks like. i sort of feel like, okay, let's

say you gave me some theory that cohen went rogue. this wassing cooed up by weisselberg and cohen. that in that seems plausible and they wanted to do it for the boss. but then i need something about why trump writes him the check. >> i can give it to you. >> okay. >> but it's not very strong. >> go ahead. >> if you admit the misdemeanor, yeah, business fraud, it's on paper -- >> there's no question. >> cfo, you lied. but you say, when cohen did all this and the defendant's sitting in the white house, he then felt like paying him back, so it's partly the rogue. but it's all after the fact. if you move the decision, which is still bad, later after the fact, you might -- and tell us what you think -- help raise doubt against whether it was contemporaneously consciousness, intent, at the time before election day, which means -- again, i'm not here doing free legal service. they already have their plan. which means you admit the misdemeanor, which is a common defense tactic when you have a bad case. then you postdate the other action, and that allows for the

fact that it could be true that you reimbursed him. >> and will donald trump allow his defense attorneys to say, your honor, we want you to instruct the jury on the lesser included offense of falsifying business records in the second degree. >> don't you think that would be -- >> will he allow his lawyers to essentially plead guilty to the misdemeanor? >> well, not plead guilty. you're admitting it basically. then he would be, again, assuming the jury says, you know what? we don't think it's the higher. we don't know where the intent to conceal another crime is, but he did intend to defraud. then there's 34 misdemeanor convictions as opposed to a felony. >> don't you think if you have a defendant who's not consumed by ego, that's a better instruction. >> that's the advice i would give my client. the client could say hooey. >> if this had been me, i would have pled guilty day one, and it would have been over by now. our recap of the action in the trump criminal trial. to be clear, i didn't do. we'll be right back. stay with us.

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in helping hungry kids or go online to helpnokidhungry.org and help feed hungry kids today. prosecutor, what, if anything, did you discuss with mr. davidson on those phone calls about karen mcdougal. michael cohen, that she was also under control, that nobody's going rogue here. prosecutor, in addition to that, did you express any anger at keith davidson for that article? michael cohen, yes. prosecutor, why? this cohen, because she was his client, and i expected he would have this under control. again, it was days before, and i wanted to ensure mr. trump was

safe. prosecutor, were you angry with him? cohen, very. prosecutor, did you think someone on his side had leaked something like this to "the wall street journal"? cohen, yes. prosecutor, did you indicate to him that somebody might be very upset with him? cohen, i did. prosecutor, who did you indicate might be very upset with him? trump defense counsel, objection, leading. the judge, sustained. prosecutor, what, if anything, did you tell him about mr. trump during those calls? cohen, that he was really angry, and i truly hoped that we don't come back to find out that this is something that you guys did where -- where this is a major problem. michael cohen giving us a window into the type of work he did for donald trump. i wanted to get to that part of the transcript, catherine, because you were talking about what michael cohen was doing for donald trump, what type of relationship this was. >> it was -- and, again, i don't

want to be offensive -- but it was servant-master. he did whatever trump told him to do. he wanted to please him basically, which explains his hostility and hatred now, after all i did for him and he doesn't take me to the white house. this is what he's done. >> and does this go to disproving the, like, theoretical counter-narrative that this really was, you know, michael cohen being paid for a legal retainer, that michael cohen's legal services were super valuable to trump? >> they were not legal services in 2016, and there weren't any legal services in 2017, which i think is the stronger proof. michael cohen will say that. but to your point, he was much, even generously viewed -- one of the things i found funny today is hope hicks demeaned michael cohen, saying he was useless, he

was mr. fix it in name only. but who did they rely on when they needed to clean up "access hollywood"? >> and to make karen mcdougal go away and dino the doorman go away. michael cohen was involved in all of these things because he was asked to, not because he freelanced it. this was his job. >> can i just ask a question about comportment and credibility? my sense from reading the accounts today was that he came off pretty well. he was pretty -- >> cohen? >> that cohen came off pretty well, that he seemed credible. he admitted to doing shady stuff without doing a lot of circumlocution around it. is that an accurate sense? >> it was the most humble michael cohen i think any of us have ever seen. >> our recap of the trump criminal trial continues just ahead. we'll be right back.

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