everybody, my lovely ladies, adam and the judge, thank you so much for being here. it's been a whirlwind of afternoon special coverage. it does not end here. donald trump's hush-money trial, the special coverage of it continues next with nicolle wallace, the one and only, and "deadline: white house." hi, everyone. welcome to monday. it's 4:00 in new york, and every single level, legal, political, human, an extraordinary showdown today in court still happening. the ex-president coming face to face with the man who used to do his dirty work, who now has turned into the key witness in the first-ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. michael cohen, donald trump's former personal lawyer and fixer, is still on the witness

stand. been there all day. nearing the end of just his first day of testimony. michael cohen revealing what it was like to work for donald trump and made sure the boss looked good in the public eye. work that trump would praise him for when he did that. cohen testified that it would make him feel, quote, like i was on top of the world. cohen was a guard dog protecting his boss at all costs. trump's former pit bull today corroborated all of the interactions this jury has heard about over the past few weeks. that includes the all-important meeting at trump tower in 2015. that's the one with david pecker of the "national enquirer" and donald trump where the catch-and-kill scheme was originally hatched. michael cohen testified to conversations about keeping the story of donald trump's affair with "playboy" model karen mcdougal quiet. he testified to how he arranged with pecker the $150,000 payment mcdougal to bury the story.

the jury then heard the only conversation cohen had with trump that he taped which cohen said he did to make sure that pecker knew he would be repaid. >> i've spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with -- >> so what do we got to pay for this? one fifty -- >> yes. all the stuff. all the stuff. here you never know where that company, you never know what he's i'm all over that. i spoke to allen about it. when it comes time for financing, which will be -- >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay him something. no, no, no. >> cash, check, no, no, no, no, no. that conversation. but the weeks of trial we have already watched, what we've already been through leading to the big moments today where michael cohen described all the details of that $130,000

hush-money payment to stormy daniels. it occurred at a tim he noted when his boss, donald trump, was already polling poorly with women because of the release of the "access hollywood" tape. the lawyer for the prosecution, susan hoffinger asked cohen, quote, what if anything did you think about the potential impact that might have on the campaign? catastrophic, cohen says, quote, horrible for the campaign. cohen testified that when he shared with his then-boss the fact that stormy's story had resurfaced with just weeks to go ahead of the 2016 presidential election donald trump said, quote, i thought you took care of this. i thought this was under control. that was trump. to which he followed up to cohen, quote, just take care of it. the ex-president told michael cohen to work with david pecker. from david pecker's testimony responded when it came to paying off stormy daniels by drawing a line in the sand and saying,

quote, i am not a bank. leaving him berated by his boss, michael cohen, to figure out what he could do to take care of it at trump's direction. so michael cohen then testified that stormy daniels' lawyer, keith davidson, wanted an immediate wire transfer of the hush money to keep that stormy story out of the news. michael cohen was trying to push it beyond the election as he had been instructed to do by, wait for it, trump. saying a sentence that gets to the heart of the case, trump's intent. cohen said, quote, i was following directions. in just the last hour or so, we heard michael cohen go through in, again, excruciating detail the back and forths that he had around his making of the hush-money payment. reiterating that, quote, the whole purpose of this transaction was to keep it quiet, to keep it confidential. cohen testified to making the payment through an llc called essential consultants. he set it up just for this

single purpose about which he lied in one of his bank forums because he knew they wouldn't have opened it if they knew its true intent was to pay hush money to stormy daniels, a porn star, on behalf of trump ahead of an election. the jury heard about the frantic scramble by michael cohen and team trump when the "wall street journal" story breaks about the karen mcdougal catch-and-kill scheme, as well as michael cohen's disappointment in not being brought to washington, d.c., to the white house when trump eventually becomes president. now this is still happening. we join you in the middle of this live event. we're monitoring the andrew ha but two computers. we start with our favorite reporters and friends. joining us t table for the hour, both back from the courthouse, legal analysts andrew weissman's here, "new york times" reporter suzanne craig is back. with us for the hour, donnie deutsch, host of the podcast "on brand." we're going to start with my friend and colleague, nbc's

vaughn hillyard, joining us from outside the courthouse. we've got you for the whole hour. but just take me through what this has been like to listen to michael cohen essentially corroborate testimony we heard from the first witness, david pecker, think he was the third, keith davidson. we then heard from stormy daniels a lot of these details. but michael cohen testifying to the back end, and i guess more importantly the person pulling all the strings, donald trump. >> reporter: right. look, the jury here today here in the middle of may, 2024, heard from a man who says that he was working as the middleman for the soon-to-be president of the united states, donald trump. what he told this jury here today was that he was the operative working behind the scenes to silence the salacious stories from getting to the american public, and that the entire time when it was dino the doorman who alleged that he had a story about a love child of

donald trump's, it was $30,000 payments that made its way to dino the doorman to silence him. who was appraised of that arrangement? donald trump. you had karen mcdougal, the "playboy" playmates, who alleged a ten-month affair with donald trump and who was the one directing and who was the one apprised every step of the way of that arraignment of $150,000 to pay her off, donald trump. who was the middleman? michael cohen. and then you have stormy daniels, and here in riveting testimony today michael cohen saying that he was, in fact, told by donald trump to make her story go away. on october 8th 2016, he tells this jury he had a phone call with donald trump the day after the "access hollywood" tape dropped, the date before the presidential debate. on that phone call donald trump was frustrated to hear that stormy daniels was shopping around her story of her alleged affair with donald trump. and then though you have other phone calls over the interveing

weeks in which michael cohen says that phone records show that the two men engage about the effort to not only have that story go away, but also attempt to have it go away after the 2016 election without having to actually pay stormy daniels that $130,000. but then you have michael cohen saying on october 28th he had a five-minute phone call with donald trump in which he told his boss, the man that he referred to as the boss or mr. trump, that the story was gone, it was taken care of. he had taken out a home equity line of credit to make sure that in those final two weeks the american public would not learn about her story. so the jury now has a man himself who says that he effectively worked on behalf of donald trump, the quote of the morning, quote, i was following directions. those are the words that the jury now has to reckon with here. >> you know, there were details -- i've only know michael cohen on the other side of his love/hate relationship. i've only know him on the hate

side of his love/hate relationship with donald trump. some of the testimony spanned the love side. and there were two things that -- this jumped out at you, too, where he said how would you feel when he thanked you for solving his most vexing we'll them them sordid kinds of issues? he said, quote, i felt like i was on top of the world. the other detail that i -- i've interviewed him on the show, talked to him a ton, i've read his books. that when he's offered the job he never goes back to his old office. it's like the dream job, offered the job, he stays and someone else gathers all of his stuff. i don't know that i appreciated how much he loved working for trump. >> look, i'll never forget michael was making a bar mitzvah for his son, and he was as much focused on whether donald trump was going come to that bar mitzvah. that meant it was almost like a father out of town, are you going to make it, are you going to make it? it was an ongoing thing for him to come to his son's bar mitzvah. his own self-worth was

completely tied up -- if you think about trump and all the words you use for trump -- for cohen, you know, belligerent and tenacious and pugnacious, it's trump. i mean, trump -- >> more than his own son. >> he's a lot more -- that's a great point. he is a lot more like trump than trump's own sons. and he to this day, i think there's this sick affection deep down in there. he just was mesmerized. it gave him his reason to stick his chest out and stuck it out, and that's why there's a lot of people having issues with him. he would have literally taken a bullet for him. he took out a home equity loan to pay off -- >> he went to jail for him. he goes on to go to jail for him. i wonder -- nothing in a criminal trial is for accident. what is the legal strategy behind that part of the storytelling this morning? >> you know, i don't think that the prosecutor sort of -- what's

the right phrase -- sort of went in -- really tried to stress the sort of personal dynamic. it was there, but it was not -- you know, it will be interesting how much they do in closing because the personal drama i thought was -- and having seen lots of insiders who are lower level cooperate against their bosses, you know, that i know how difficult that can be, this was really -- it felt so palpable, and it sort of to me explained the volatile behavior now. >> yes. and i thought -- i wonder -- i thought the defense leaned into everything they know donald trump's lawyers are going to throw at him. the lying. i counted at least eight times where the -- on direct they're getting -- was that a lie, yes, was that a lice, why did you lie? the lying and loyalty seemed central to the direct. >> that you have to do. the end is going to include like all of this, him pleading guilty and all of the things he did.

but it's like they are definitely -- you have to front that to the jury. there well crimes he's going to have to say he did that don't have to do with donald trump. so you know, it's not like there are lots that he did for them, but there are ones he did not for him. so that part of him, he's going to have to own. i have to say i think our impression from at least for myself, i'll say i think he was doing very well. should be doing well. it's direct. but he was very controlled. and he also is not making any excuses. like he didn't say -- it didn't come from him where he said, yes, i lied, but it was for him. like he -- it was like, i lied. and then waited. the prosecutor wanted to say what was the reason for it, then it would come out, well, if i told them the truth, the scheme wouldn't have worked. that was the problem. so -- it was a very -- it was just a very -- from a personal sort of level, there's this really interesting dynamic in

terms of what he was willing to do. and he also -- they leaned into that he was really a bully and sort of said -- could you be more than just a bully, he said, yes. he was basically, i would say, anything to -- on behalf of him and said is it fair to call you a fixer for him. he said that's fair. so it was such an interesting dynamic on a personal level, and i really do think -- because they will hear about all of his antics recently, including what he did just in the last week. that's going to come out on cross-examination. i think the -- that love for him is, frankly, the way to understand -- >> the betrayal -- >> yeah. exactly. >> what do you think? >> i really felt that first of all seeing just the fidelity he had to him and the admiration he had to him, it really does explain the hate. i don't know in a new way, but you understood it today, the court didn't see that, though.

and i felt the -- the examination by susan hoffinger was almost bordering on -- he would answer yes, ma'am, no ma'am. he wasn't asked to elaborate on meetings and they tied him to corroborate evidence that has already come in, conversations or we're getting to the document phase, but i think in the conversations he was able to take us into some of the meetings that we've wondered about, we've heard about them from other witnesses. but to be able to hear on all three of the hush-money payments, particularly the stormy daniels one because it's the one in question, we were able to hear some of the conversations that happened between the two men. some of it was corroborating, some of it was new. susan hoffinger kept it tight. it was moving so quickly we thought the direct would get done today. you didn't see any explosive michael cohen, i think that's -- i'm pretty sure we're going to get a taste of that on

cross-examination. but she was trying to almost felt like get him off the stand all day. >> and every -- it seemed that wherever possible -- first of all, i noticed that there were very few objection was the defense. >> that's right. >> in contrast to the first day of stormy daniels' testimony, especially the morning session. obviously michael cohen is a lawyer, michael cohen was down there 25 times. he has probably as strong a sense of this case as any lawyer prosecuting it. >> yes. >> the other thing i noticed is that the punctuation with documents and phone records is so -- almost like a -- like someone's thesis, right? >> i don't think they -- they don't want to have any room for donald trump's lawyers to come in and give them something to explore that's not already in the record or is a document. it really felt that way. there were some new conversations, like i found it was interesting that in the the -- the conversation that has been -- that was taped that the admission came out that it was

taped so that michael cohen could potentially play it to david pecker. all along you've been wondering how long michael cohen has been taping these conversations. whether or not that's true or not, that's what michael cohen said today. does make sense in that that's probably where his head was that time, maybe he was worried he wasn't going to get paid back. but david pecker and stormy daniels in particular, that camp was breathing down his neck for that money. just to hear even that detail i thought -- there were details like that that were interesting. but you got a lot of more information, like there was a meeting between michael cohen and donald trump where the karen mcdougal payment came up and michael's talking to him. donald trump said, well, isn't she beautiful? and michael cohen says, yeah, but there could be an issue coming up here. and donald trump says, you should take care of it. >> there's another piece, donnie, that leapt out at me. he asked about going upstairs and telling melania. it's about "access hollywood."

he says, cohen recalled what trump thought his wife melania would feel -- after stormy daniels -- cohen asked trump, how's things going to go upstairs? trump says, don't worry. how long you think i'll object the market for? not long. cohen interpreted that mean he wasn't worried about melania, but he was worried about the campaign. >> that's no surprise. i don't think there's -- would be any other way, that's clearly what he was worried about. donald trump was never discreet in what he was doing with women and certainly not in this case. that's clearly not a defense. >> vaughn, something that you and i have talked about a lot is hope hicks' practices being revealed through the rare experience of listening to her testify. she came up again. the prosecutor showed 12 calls between hope hicks and michael cohen on november 4th and 5th. that's ahead of the election. when the karen mcdougal story coming out in the "wall street journal" about the catch and kill. prosecutor asks, what was the gist of what the campaign was going to say?

this is after he talks about these 12 phone calls with hope hicks. deny, deny, deny. the email that was entered into evidence from hope hicks after the "access hollywood" transcript was e-mailed to her said deny, deny, deny. it's such -- it's just such an illuminating window into anyone that thought they were dealing with a campaign in good faith. their practice was never to try to answer any of these questions. it was always to quote hope hicks deny. >> reporter: right. deny, deny. it also shots the extent to which -- shows the sent to which they reied on michael cohen for guidance and advice on their own strategy. not only did donald trump in the 24 hours after that call michael cohen himself, but also hope hicks, steve bannon reached tout michael cohen, and then on november 4th, talking about less than 100 hours until polls close, not only did hope hicks reach out repeatedly to michael cohen, but keith schiller sent a text message to michael cohen on

november 4th asking if he was around because donald trump, the boss, would like to talk to him. so the difficulty for the defense here is if they try to argue to this jury that he's a minimal figure of importance, the last month of the 2016 campaign and at least the context with this individual, michael cohen, suggest otherwise. and michael cohen, you know, almost to a certain extent here acknowledged to this jury having an ego, but also to a certain extent the humiliation when he every single time said he had to go to the boss with what he had accomplished on the day or what story he had silenced in order to get credit. but it was throughout his tenure in the trump organization dating back to 2007, he said. he said for one instance donald trump's limo was hit by a yellow taxi and donald trump put him in charge with having the taxi service go and pay for the damages of the limo. and then there's another story that michael cohen said in which there was flooding damage to the bathroom of the trump tower

penthouse, and he put michael cohen in charge of that. and every single one of these situations it's michael cohen looking for credit but he's the first phone call for his span of 15 years to get the difficult and annoying stuff done. >> so difficult and annoying is the name of the game today. we understand what's happening now. we'll give you a couple of minutes to read in on this. what's happening now is more testimony about how michael cohen believed from donald trump he was to be reimbursed. we also have rudy giuliani who revealed to sean hannity on live tv that it was, quote, funneled through michael cohen as a reimbursement. we have lawsuits in which trump has settled and acknowledged in documents it was a reimbursement. that's being entered into the record. we'll get our arms around that during the break and tell you about it on the other side. there's also a lot happening -- lot more happening behind closed doors in that courtroom. we'll bring you up to speed on

everything that was synced up today between the things that keith davidson had already testified to, the things david pecker had testified to, the things we'd already heard from hope hicks. we'll bring all of that into focus for you on this historic day of testimony, perhaps the key witness in the first-ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. we'll also dig deeper into how prosecutors are laying the groundwork for cohen's cross-examination. hanging a lantern, as i think they say, around some of his weaknesses. the lies he told on behalf of donald trump before trump's team can go after him for it. there will be special coverage of this historic day. michael cohen's testimony in the trump trial. when we come back, tonight, as well. stay with us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley

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having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000? i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry. i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. so -- >> they funneled it through the law firm. >> funnel through the law firm, and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know -- he did. >> yep. >> you know the president didn't know about this? i believe that's what michael had said -- >> he didn't know about the specifics of it as far as i know. but he did know about the general arrangement that michael would take care of things like this. >> until the end of time i will not understand what rudy thought he was doing there. he told us -- years ago now that

trump knew that he was paying through michael cohen, a lawyer, that money that would go to stormy daniels. what we learned today was just how instrumental trump was. how he was in the room where the details and the logistics of that arraignment were not just conceived of but hammered out. andrew, explain. >> yeah. they just were going over this. one of the exhibits that we've heard about through jeff mcconnie was -- hate to be a nerd, but exhibits 35 and 36, where there's handwritten notes. one allen weisselberg handwritten note, the second is from jeff mcconnie. why are they important? because it's all about the cover-up part. and the cover-up is the crime here that's charged. and it's about taking the amount of money that was paid to stormy daniels -- if was just a reimbursement one for one and that's all you're doing, you would just give -- pay $130,000. instead, it was disguised as

legal fees. that meant it had to be declared as income. you have to pay somebody in the 50% tax bracket twice as much. so somewhat complicated, but basically if it was just, you know, going to be declared legally, you just pay 130, that's fine. you pay 260, it's because you're disguising it as income. >> and we know that they knew that because -- there's that thing on "the wire" where you don't take notes in a criminal conspiracy. allen weisselberg did. >> yes. >> his notes on the side -- >> and what's great, it's not on scratch paper. it's on the actual $130,000 wire that goes from -- exactly. so the typewritten part is the actual wire from essential consulting through first republic bank that -- that is something that cohen had to show weisselberg to say i spent the money, here's the wire. so he's proving to weisselberg i'm owed the 130, and instead of

the calculation should be if this was totally legit should be oh, you're at 130, here's 130. right. this is -- >> finance -- >> this is not complicated. 130 times one is 130 -- >> he paid it $130,000 after tax. so he wanted it grossed up. i mean, that was the issue is that it was like -- it was an expense. he'd come to his own pocket with after-tax money it pay this. so in order to cover that, they grossed it up. >> by the way, weisselberg -- this is one of the things weisselberg pled guilty to in his own tax case because he also wanted -- he was getting money off the books. and when trump became president he said, oh, we can't do it off the books anymore, it's going to have to be declared as income. so i need to be doubled because i have to pay taxes. he knew exactly how this works. >> let me bring you in, donnie, is he mad that weisselberg is leaving him -- it's hard to say leaving him out to dry because

he's in prison at rikers for these crimes on behalf of trump. >> i don't think he's -- would think it would play out any other way. >> why? >> because weisselberg is just so -- he needs donald and whatever he's getting paid, this was the right move for him in his life, believe it or not. i've never heard michael say other than, you know, dweeb or something -- i can't believe he'd do, that can't believe he let me hang out to dry. i never got any animosity. >> let me go to vaughn real quick. court is in recess. they're done for the day. they've ended on this -- i won't call it nerdy about weeds-y documents part of the case, the reimbursement. and this gets to the heart of the crime, the fraudulent business records. your sense of whether it was the clock, they stopped at 4:30, or whether this was getting dense? your sense of how far they made it today, vaughn? >> reporter: right, judge

merchan has been precise in ending at 4:30. that is exactly what took place here in the last minute. they ended it with quite the moment here, getting to the falsification of the business records that you guys just outlined. and michael cohen testifying here just with men the last few moments here, very explicitly that he was with allen weisselberg when they did that scratch math on the first republic bank statement of the wire transfer. at this point they then walked in to donald trump's office at trump tower, this was about january 17th. michael cohen is testifying, which would have been three days before inauguration. and that's when they walked into his office and with him sitting there, they said that, in fact, mr. weisselberg stated this $420,000 was to be paid to cohen over 12 months. and what did donald trump say in response? susan hoffinger is asking, cohen said he approved it and added, this is going to be one heck of a ride in d.c. went on to continue by being

clear that allen weisselberg with donald trump in the room directed michael cohen to send a monthly invoice. so that is where we leave off today. tomorrow morning we could expect to get to that february, 2017, white house meeting where michael cohen has publicly said he went to the oval office to talk with donald trump about actually getting that first check because, again, one of the lines, the themes here, closing months and weeks, was frustrations over not getting that reimbursement. that's where we expect to pick up tomorrow morning. >> and sue, for our viewers to know while vaughn was giving us his reporting there, we had a picture up for a few seconds of trump, he is speaking outside the courthouse. we are monitoring it so you don't have to. so far i'm not hearing any news -- >> a great line. >> if it has, we will tell you about it. sue, this is part of the case that you are so well steeped in. your sense of the significance of how the day ended, this final bit of testimony? >> i think it's really important

because it puts now we knew about the weisselberg kind of gross-up situation which begins the falsification of the documents. but we now hear that allen weisselberg and michael cohen went and talked to donald trump for signoff on it. it's just another meeting now that michael cohen has been able to place donald trump in. the documents do a huge amount of work in this case, but the intent's got to come from the actors, and that's now what we're seeing. i think michael cohen's brought that together both in this latest exchange that we just talked about that vaughn mentioned at the end and in the other ones that happened today and we're starting to see a picture of intent. we're going to see how the jury ultimately will find out if they believed him or not. that's where we're marching toward. >> what's interesting is that you go back to how the day unfolded. and i thought this -- the stuff -- i didn't know where you were going at the beginning, i thought you were going to say it was boring. it was tense, the most opaque to

me. i didn't know michael cohen when he loved trump and was in his orbit. it's central -- i've said this every day, i'll say it again, nobody has any idea how anyone is playing with the jury. only they will decide on the merits of the case that's been made. but to put michael cohen second to last and have michael cohen be, you know, what, the 18th person to describe trump as in on everything, an epic micromanager, a tightwad. one of his first jobs was to negotiate and haggle on the bills which he also heard from mcconnie, which he heard -- for cohen to be vilified as we -- maybe he won't be, we don't know what they're going to do with him. to put him out as an outliar will be to depict him as different in terms of the story he tells from 18 other people at this point. >> the defense so far has a big problem which is what is the alternative narrative? now there's -- you can try and

poke holes, but a smart person is going to be -- okay, tell me the narrative that strings all that proof together and makes sense of it. you can tell me that he's a liar, i know -- he told me he's a liar. i know he's lied on bank statements, some for himself, some for others. tell me how i'm supposed to put all of this proof together in some other scenario. and to me that -- people say trials are -- that narratives, and yes, it is true sometimes it's just like your narrative is they haven't proved the case. but there's -- there's a lot of evidence. he is very much a summation witness the way that he is both telling the story and they're constantly using documents to prop them up. the other thing that i think you're going to hear is why you have to have witnesses like michael cohen to win a case like this. this -- when i was sitting there i was thinking about my cases and my organized crime cases and

also, frankly, my enron cases. michael cohen was asked did donald trump use email, no. why not? >> he believed that's how people went down. >> exactly. go down. >> give me a chill. >> that is vincent chigante, other smart, boss of the genovese family. he didn't want anyone to use his name. a lot of this he will not use email. he did not want to sign the nda with stormy daniels because, as michael cohen said, a signature with -- the point was to -- >> to isolate him from it. >> exactli. to protect him. to give him what is happening now, plausible deniabilitydenia. here it's plausible den ieblts. he wouldn't -- deniabilities. he wouldn't use his name. these efforts reminiscent of mob work, of senior enron people which is do not create a paper

trail. you will re-- remember his famous line to don mcghan. >> the thing about don mcghan, he took notes and his notes had a notetaker and chief of staff, annie donaldson. one thing, cohen when he loves him is an incredibly credible witness to his infidelities. and you take cohen saying, you know, yeah, we knew there were going to be -- michael is -- in with trump who says can be a lot of women that come out. pecker says he was the most eligible bachelor ever. he was married the whole time pecker knew him. three times -- >> the details -- >> literally never in -- he was always married to someone. i mean, and again, i know that's not a charge crime. but central to the sort of narrative, his motive. you've got the campaign motive now, almost a wallpaper, layer after layer after layer. every person has told the same story about the campaigning. you've got the women as an

issue, trump thinks he's going to have as a candidate. >> and to the point about the micromanager and how everybody said that, my personal experience i had with him, i lived in one of his apartments. after ten years i was leaving, and this security deposit, we're argue being, and donald trump calls me and says there's a crack in the bathtub. i said, well, i've never even taken a bath. than inbound cares out there. he's -- not that anybody cares out there. and he's fighting -- and he's arguing with me. i said to him, don't you have anybody else that does that? he goes, no, this is what i do. and literally it was over a few thousand dollars in one apartment. that's the level of micromanager he was. i remember laughing like how are you running a business with doing this. >> it was laughable when they were trying to say on the cross that he -- oh, he was signing checks here and there. and he was on calls and didn't know who he was signing them to. this is -- come on. like nobody here's living in a cave. just not possible. >> it's not what anyone else has testified to. >> the opposite.

exactly. >> right. all right. unfortunately we have to sneak in a break. we'll be right back. back. (avo) kate made progress with her mental health... ...but her medication caused unintentional movements in her face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so her doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) oh, hi buddy! (avo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness.

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right now you can get a free footlong at subway. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. that's what donald trump gets you to do. he's like a mob boss. he turns around and tells you quietly and no fingerprints because he has no computer, he has no email, and he tells you through code what it is that he wants you to do.

and for some reason, you begin to feel like you're invincible. you start to take on donald trump's sort of teflon don posture. and it doesn't work that way because he's not there in order to protect you. >> vaughn and our friends at the table are back. it's so interesting to me that michael cohen ends up -- and allen weisselberg, the two that go to jail -- they're the two that deal with the dirtiest underbelly of trump's personal life and his financial misdeeds, right. weisselberg does the math on the piece of paper in handwriting for a man who doesn't use email, and trump is the face of it -- trump, i'm sorry, michael cohen is the face of it, negotiating with davidson, writing the statements for hope, in the room with pecker. what's amazing to me is that he sort of gets pecker to do something that pecker doesn't want to do with mcdougal. he's constantly negotiating on behalf of trump.

i wonder how all that kind of built up and what -- what his state of mind was going into that. >> to give you an idea of how close they were, you have to understand how small the office is up there. it's a little licensing office. there's not this sprawling trump corporate headquarters glistening. it's one floor, and so like they're -- he's in and out of his office all day. it was weisselberg and cohen who were the two henchmen, whatever, so there was a nonstop -- i'm not surprise if there were two people who went to jail it's those two people. they're the ones lubricating all the machinery to make whatever happens happen. trying to get inside michael's head, he -- beyond anything else -- of course this is -- i think he's hurt. there's -- he's like a very sensitive guy. it's just -- you know, it's a very -- it's so personal. he was so tied up with him

personally. and then i just -- in all my years in talking to him -- and i've done a lot of counseling with him. we really got in there together. there's a hurt that he has, and i don't know where that -- that has no legal implications, just something i want to share. >> i think it's central to what is the jury going to make of him. and again, we do not know. as someone who was on the inside, i guess my question is how do witnesses in organized crime cases who have that much affection for the boss, how do juries see them? >> so the issue's candor. like how you're sort of -- how you express all of that. and if you're -- the problem with -- and the hard part about being a witness is you have to be candid with yourself. and so you have to take this hard look at why you've done stuff and be candid about it. it is not an easy thing when you're in michael cohen's position or rick gates' position, people think it's easy

because you can get out of jail -- you're obviously doing it because you're hoping for a lower sentence. it is a difficult process. none of us like looking at all of our flaws let alone testifying in court as to all of them. he actually talked about that when -- about being heard, about getting this -- sort of drastically cut bonus without donald trump talking to him. and he said it was so -- he said, i was really angry, and then not being invited into the administration, he said -- he said, you know, was i ever going to be -- the chief of staff? no. he said, am i chief of staff material, no. but i was hurt that i wasn't even on a list of being considered. so he sort of comes up with the idea of being his personal counsel, and donald trump says yes. but he said it was so -- >> not even to be on the lets -- >> hard because he felt he had done so much. of course the jury has heard from david pecker the sort of tape recording of his expressing

how angry and hurt he is. so you get this real sense of like he was willing to do anything for this guy. >> yeah. >> he did do all sorts of things that -- you know, and not entirely but there's a big part of why he went to jail. >> ron, i want to bring you in on this part of it. trump is talking about other things. and he spent a lot of the last three, four years maligning michael cohen, attacking him to the degree that he violated, criminally violated his own gag order i think ten times, close it a dozen times. he was out there today talking about other stuff. what is your sense of his state of mind about michael cohen being on the stand this week? >> reporter: he left the courtroom and didn't mention him by name. but this is a very angry donald trump upon leaving the courthouse. there's been some days where he's been more blase or left altogether. this one clearly was frustrating. and i think that the part is that there's mutual frustration.

when you have this sort of pact and alliance in a relationship where you're serving as, quote, special counsel, to the bossid? of the trump organization dating back to 2007, right, you're the one that is the go-to man. for donald trump, he lost his go-to man, and instead his go-to man instead started working with federal and state prosecutors and started revealing intimate details about his life and going to the point of going before a jury and taking the stand here. and i think to the point about the frustration for michael cohen, look, another example he gave today was on october 8th, 2016, when radar.com posted a donald trump and his "playboy" history, and michael cohen effectively got that story taken down. and yet he -- told the boss, but where was the credit? you know, it's more than just an acknowledge. at this point. what was it going to get him in the end? and donald trump, you know, may be able to reflecttively look back at this moment here, but there was one man that he didn't hold close enough or got to the

point of being unable to hold close enough, and now this man to the extent that he is telling the truth is using his leverage to the bet of his ability to take down his right hand, the patter in -- partner who gave him the credibility and livelihood but stripped him of those very things, too. >> sue, on the fraudulent documents, you have now accountants and controller talking about donald trump's hands-on role in every dime that went out of the building. you have michael talking about going in and out of his office all the time. i mean, what in your view hasn't been sort of sewn up in terms of, as andrew keeps talking about, the sort of narrated story that the prosecution's telling? >> i'm waiting for two pieces. one is michael cohen is going to walk us through the emails he sent where every month he said per my legal retainer, and i sent in a bill. be more of an entry issue. he's also going to testify there was no legal retainer.

i think that's going to be really important for the jury to hear because trump's lawyers on earlier -- earlier in the week or last week had mentioned it was a verbal or oral retainer. it's not -- nobody can produce it. and michael cohen's going to talk about that, and i'm sure that there may be discussions with donald trump about that. i think those two pieces are going to be really important going into tomorrow. >> not for nothing, cohen's testimony about what trump thought of stormy daniels after the way trump's lawyers smeared her was just another riveting moment today. i mean, to talk to the trump insiders about how's our girl karen, the tenderness he felt toward mcdougal, the attractiveness with which he found stormy daniels is fascinating. >> and this is the part of the trial -- that i i'm just thinking the defense lawyers who are pretty good lawyers have to be going, why do we need to cross examine stormy daniels to

death when her testimony doesn't hurt us? but david pecker and hope hicks have really sort of like almost trial-ending testimony. hope hicks, her last bit of testimony which was conversations with donald trump, what are they going to argue at the end of the case, the defense, when they did not take any swings at her? and with david pecker it was mild. and yet stormy daniels -- i mean, what's her story? i mean, like even in the worst story it's -- she's not saying anything criminal. it's like we had sex, and then i wanted money. then i was willing to have an nda. okay, that's -- that'snda. okay. >> nothing to do with the false business records. >> exactly. to me you know why it happened. you've got these two planes. and in fact michael ohen saying in all of that cross was show.

if you believe him it's like that is all what we do for public spin to spin the jury because that's not what was happening inside the tent. >> misdirection. >> yeah. >> fascinating. we have to sneak in a break. we'll all be right back on the other side. don't go anywhere. he other side don't go anywhere. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo!

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everyone is back. and that includes my colleague vaughn hillyard. vaughn, you know, what moment have we now lifted up that really struck you, that you're going to sort of be mulling

tonight? >> the jury. they didn't foe who michael cohen was coming in today. they have the story of a man who was there at the very beginning of donald trump's political journey back in 2011. michael cohen testified that he brought the supposed poll to donald trump's desk that showed 60% of americans wanted him to be president of the united states. and he even set up the website should trump run.com. he didn't run in 2012. but in early 2015 before he had his announcement to run for president. and then even had a conversation with donald trump before that june 2016 announcement -- 2015 announcement. they had a conversation about what would happen post-announcement and he said that donald trump told him that women would come forward with stories and that they should be alerted. so the jury here today, they're being introduced to a man that was more like family than just a political ally in the moment of a presidential campaign. >> yeah. and i mean, that is where i feel like we've had all the wrong

frames around trump for years. it is as comey described this family thing. >> i ended up with a much more small bore takeaway in terms of something we haven't talked about, because i always think about what's going to happen in closing arguments. and i was thinking about all of the reasons that allen weisselberg, who clearly made this scheme, had no reason to keep it from donald trump. and one thing that i hadn't really focused on was something michael cohen said, which is he said, well, of course i told him about this. not only because you have to, i mean, that's the rule, he has to approve this, but i wanted to get paid back. like if i didn't tell him how am i going to get my 130,000? so it just was -- i mean, the way he phrased it was just so like -- just a very sort of street-smart like i had 130,000 reasons to tell him. >> and that's the plussing up. that's the math, the arithmetic on the paper that is as close as we've seen so far to a smoking gun. >> it really does defy belief that they didn't go in and have

a conversation with donald trump about this. but i have to say my takeaway, i just want to pivot a little bit off what vaughn said, thinking about the jury. today did go very quickly. i think by design. but i'm just wondering how much they processed about it. there was not a clear narrative with michael cohen. it was quick. there was a lot of yes and no questions and a lot of information. so i just -- they made a decision about that because they didn't want him to venture into meetings and give a lot of information like stormy daniels did. so by design they did this today. but still when i kind of think about it at the end of the day i'm wondering how the jury took all that in. >> and i'm going to give my bathtub as an exhibit. >> things you never knew you wondered about. i love that. i'll send you some bath bombs. andrew, susanne, donny and vaughn, thank you for spending the hour with us. for more analysis of court today we'll put out a special edition

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♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. it took weeks of preparation for this jury, more than a year for the star witness himself. but today in a cold manhattan courtroom on the 16th day of donald trump's election interference hush money trial, those winding roads so meticulously laid down by prosecutors collided dramatically. michael cohen, the former lawyer and fixer for the ex-president, the reformed member of the disgraced ex-president's innermost circle, finally taking the stand. he did so with a unique perspective. so far in this trial it's the primary in-house facilitator of donald trump's alegend criminality. michael cohen's pivotal testimony today, which is expected to continue tomorrow

and perhaps later in the week, breathed new life into the case assembled by the prosecution. under oath he took the jury through the muck of what he did for trump in an effort to protect trump's public image, that catch and kill scheme, licensing agreements, and payment options designed to leave as little of a paper trail as humanly possible. before court adjourned today a short time ago the prosecution added new color to what happened mere days before the 2016 election. that is, the widespread panic within the trump campaign surrounding early "wall street journal" reporting on payments to karen mcdougal. cohen, who today admitted he lied repeatedly to help trump, quote, to accomplish the task to make him happy, also detailed how frequently he and trump were in contact. multiple times a day, he said, on a number of issues that would eventually include trump's relationships with women. michael cohen said that before

trump's presidential announcement he advised his fixer, quote, just be prepared, there's going to be a lot of women coming forward, trump said to cohen. cohen also guided the jury through how the operation worked, the secretive coordination between himself, donald trump, ex-cfo allen weisselberg, and publisher david pecker, who brokered the hush money deals. for his part today donald trump at times seemed more interested in the back of his own eyelids than listening to michael cohen's damning testimony that there's more where it came from. cohen will pick up where he left off tomorrow morning. it's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. outside the courthouse for us nbc correspondent yasmin vossoughian is back. lucky for us another full group assembled. former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman's here. plus senior executive editor at bloomberg opinion and msnbc political analyst tim o'brian's here. and former senator and co-host

of msnbc's "how to win 2024" podcast claire mccaskill is here in studio with us. such a treat. yasmin, i start with you. we've been on the air an hour. i want to start, though, with what leapt out at you. there's so much lore around the cohen-trump relationship. i had forgotten about the part where they were like father and son, where cohen loved working for him and felt, quote, like he was on top of the world, end quote, when he made him happy. how did that testimony land for you? >> reporter: it was a huge part -- excuse me, a truck went by behind me, nicolle. it was a huge part of the testimony and the leadup to what took place in 2015 and 2016, the leadup to the payoff. kind of establishing this individual, this man who was very loyal to donald trump. and i actually think it's funny that you start off this way, nicolle, because i think relationships are integral to this trial. right? the relationship that michael cohen and allen weisselberg had

with donald trump. right? the loyalty that the both of them had. does the jury actually believe, for instance, that michael cohen would have done anything without the approval of allen weisselberg and donald trump? does the jury believe that allen weisselberg would have done anything without the approval of michael cohen? the revelation of this meeting in january of 2016, i believe, 2017, i should say, january 16th or 17th in which allen weisselberg and michael cohen and donald trump, they met to talk about the payoff. right? the $35,000 that would be paid off over a 12-month period. or back to october 26th in which the phone calls between donald trump and michael cohen, one phone call was a minute and a half, the other phone call was three minutes, in which donald trump, michael cohen alleged, said essentially okay, we need to pay off stormy daniels, this story cannot get out. right? all because of this loyalty that michael cohen had, this loyalty that allen weisselberg had, for

allen weisselberg dating all the way back to late he a80s, michael cohen dating back to 2007, in which michael cohen, it seems as if -- and i don't know if it came through like this for you, nicolle, but as if he had a smile on his face. i was just reading it. i wasn't in the courtroom. talking about the experience of working for the trump family, for the trump children. there was some color from inside the courtroom in which as he was testifying to working for the trump family and the trump children eric trump was kind of looking on very intently. and at that moment, actually, though, eric trump then tweeted out, "this testimony is very rehearsed." but it seemed as if michael cohen was having a nostalgic moment about working for the trump organization and for the trump family to then deliver what it was, this damning testimony of what took place in the leadup to the payoff of stormy daniels, nicolle. >> yeah. i mean, tim, i know you've covered trump and the trump org the longest out of all of us.

he also says at one point, it was like a family, and he felt like he was a part of it. and i wonder what you make of how far cohen traveled today in clearly articulating that he was on the inside but he was not a decision maker. i mean, there's -- and i don't know if the word emasculated is the right word. but michael's telling of his standing in trump's world is that he did for trump, not that he decided or that he freelanced or that he ever went rogue but he killed for trump and then he went back and sort of turned in the prize for trump for the praise that he admitted today under oath that he needed, the pat on the head, the atta boy. he said it made him feel like he was on top of the world. >> yeah-i think he's deeply mistaken if he thought he was a member of the family because there's just such little loyalty in trump world to anyone. most of it's a one-way street. it travels away from donald trump to probably only a couple of his children. everyone else -- >> which couple? >> well, certainly ivanka.

i don't -- you know, the kids -- i just don't think he is even authentically that paternally attached to most of his children. >> we were reminded of this last -- i mean, i ask because westerhout came back on the scene and she leaves because she gets drunk and tells a story about how trump doesn't really have a lot of affinity for one of his children's appearance. there are not a lot of anecdotes that come out when staffers are drunk and speaking freely that at the time opposite. >> he's had a very troubled relationship with don jr. historically. you know, in the business world there's absolutely nothing familial about the way donald trump rolls or in the political world. it's transactional. it's narcissistically based. it's what he can draw out of it. he enjoys bending people to his will. he has radar for people who are easily corrupted. his universe is populated by all of these satellites who revolve around him solely because they want to be in this halo.

and because i think they desire to be so close to him it's evidence that they had bad judgment to begin with. and michael cohen had epically bad judgment in so many ways. he said to me -- i was on his podcast and i actually asked him about what road he traveled to where he is now. and he just said you know, i was duped, i wanted to be in that world, i thought donald trump was the epitome of a successful businessman. went, by the way, to other major new york real estate developer, he's considered a cartoon character. he's not considered a top real estate developer. and to anyone in the political world who's a veteran of policy making he's also considered a cartoon character. so i think it was inevitable that when the time came for cohen to be shredded trump shredded him and it happened basically after he won the election. he cuts his bonus, he doesn't give him a job in washington and he starts to push him out to sea. having said all that, and i think you see it in the physicality of michael cohen,

he's worn down, a couple weeks ago we talked about him telling -- publicly saying how afraid he was. and there's a lot of wimpy people in trump's world pretending to be tough. michael cohen is an authentically tough guy. >> correct. >> and he was afraid. and i think on the stand today he showed enormous discipline. i thought he was an excellent witness for the prosecution. he was steady. he kept his temper reined in. he was much better than he was during his testimony i think in the civil fraud case. and he hit all the talking points. i did what i was told, the person telling me what to do was donald trump, we were covering up records to hide payments and we were doing that because we were worried about losing the election. and then there was voluminous documentary material around that. >> totally punctuated by, you know, black-and-white documents that can't lie if they wanted to. you were in court. what did you think? >> i was in court, and i really agree with tim. so he was -- headline number one, he's extremely well prepared. not simply on the content, but he had the testimonial qualities. he listened.

he responded appropriately but briefly. he copped to certain things. yeah, i thought -- i didn't really want to be chief of staff, but my ego got in the way. yes, i lied. he did it, you know, simply, straightforwardly. that was the first headline. and the second is he really filled in to this point of when trump puts the knife in. he really filled in certain conversations between october and february that brought home just what had happened. those were the details and he carries alone. p but basically he was -- if he's like this tomorrow, he has sailed through. >> i kept thinking reading it what's -- i kept thinking of trump's stupidity and how close trump keeps flying to the sun. he's individual number one. so trump's own doj knows all of this. they knew all of this the whole time. pecker becomes an immunized witness -- i mean, why does trump -- and i guess it's this

pathology that mary trump talks about, that you talked about, his penchant for putting people through the shredder is essential to how he got here today as anything that he did, claire. >> well, and also, i think, you have to remember that when trump walked into the white house he was a little overwhelmed. he would never admit that. but you know, he was worried about surrounding himself with the right people. having the right people around him so that he didn't do something that was obviously stupid. well, it turns out that was impossible. he was going to do obviously stupid things very much from day one. but the point is that you know, cohen was the fixer of the dirty stuff. he was the guy he sent out to do the yucky, mucky, horrible s-h-i-t. and he didn't really want that person close to him in the white house. he wanted to give off this aura that i'm now president of the

united states and i have not been a serial adulterer and i have not, you know, committed sexual assault and i have not had, you know, women come forward and say things that we've paid off to keep quiet. he wanted to distance himself from that. and in order to distance himself from that he had to distance himself from michael cohen. and so that was no problem for him. michael cohen was expendable to donald trump. everybody is expendable. ask mike pence. everyone's expendable to donald trump. >> but your point, claire, he doesn't rid himself of michael cohen. he spends the whole presidency trying to find another one. he turns rooens priebus into a michael cohen. he has john kelly, he wants john kelly's project to be to fire jared and ivanka because he didn't want to do it. he made -- thought he wanted someone else. but he ends up turning these people that he thinks he should be surrounded by into people that will do what michael cohen would do. >> no question, he cannot change his need for a roy cohn or a

michael cohen or whoever is going to do his dirty work. he needs to have somebody around to do his dirty work. that doesn't mean he didn't have some fantasy that he thought somehow that now he was president he was different. and that's what's going on. he will always have somebody around that's expendable to do the dirty stuff he didn't want to do. >> but we also learned today he blinked because he did all that, he was savage to him, i mean, purposely, cutting his bonus by 2/3, and cohen went to weisselberg and complained bitterly. and you have to imagine weisselberg told trump you've got a problem on your hands. because why did trump go through and sign all the nine checks, et cetera? he was persuaded, i think, that cohen was a problem for him. >> i think that's right. i think he paid the money -- typically he wouldn't pay that money, right? he would have stiffed him. >> he said pay him, so he stays silent. you don't want this hanging out there. he can testify -- >> but the irony is he didn't want to pay the guy. he paid the gal who had sex with him. >> he thought he owned him.

>> exactly. i want to put up -- we did some work showing where cohen simply corroborates the first witness, who was david pecker. pecker testifies, first witness in the trial, i think it was april 23rd, quote, my conversations with michael cohen. michael cohen would call me and say, he would say we would like you to run a negative article on let's say for argument's sake ted cruz and he would send me, he being michael cohen, information about ted cruz or ben carson or marco rubio. that was the basis of the story. this was my favorite part. and then we would embellish it from there. to be clear, when we were preparing an article, let's say for ted cruz, we communicated what we were going to do at the direction of the article with michael cohen. we would also send him the pdfs of the stories before they were published so he could see what direction they were going, that they were moving to, and he would comment on them and then he was asked, david pecker was asked i preview for trump and for you the stories we'll run in their magazines and periodicals.

cohen says yes, basically the same exact testimony given by david pecker. can you describe a few that you recall specifically to benefit trump, some stories that were either negative about his opponents or positive for him? michael cohen, some of the negative ones i would receive from david pecker or dylan howard were hillary clinton wearing very thick glasses and some allegation she had a brain injury. there was ted cruz a photo of his father with lee harvey oswald claiming ted cruz's father was involved in the assassination of jfk. there was an article on marco rubio in a swimming pool with a bunch of other men claiming they were having a drug binge of some sort. did a.m.i. send the covers of some of these stories to you before they ran? yes. now, i know we're dealing with the elements of the crime, yasmin and the elements of the crime are the falsification of business records and the establishment of motive. but i'm old enough to remember when this would amount to a political scandal big enough to be our top story. i just wanted to pull it out in the context of the republican sycophants who got trump trial duty today. i heard there were a few. i'm waiting to see if marco rubio and ted cruz are going to

pull that card and have to come up here at some point. but the evidence of the conspiracy to smear and just how coordinated -- i mean, his covid response wasn't this tightly planned. >> reporter: it was incredibly tightly planned. and the interesting part was even with susan hoffinger's line of questioning in the leadup to that testimony you just read, she initially asked, was there any kind of campaign with a.m.i., for instance, in which you would put negative stories out there with regards to folks that donald trump wanted to smear? and michael cohen in fact said no. but then they went on to the conversation that crucial meeting in 2015 in which hope hicks, by the way, testified to as well in which she was a part of that meeting briefly and then she left, between david pecker, between michael cohen, between donald trump in which they talked about those stories you just mentioned with regards to ted cruz and how coordinated this whole thing was. nicolle, one thing i wanted to touch on as well with regards to the credibility issue when it comes to michael cohen, i think it's something that we have

underestimated up until this point. he with talked about how michael cohen was going to be star witness but understandably has these credibility issues of course because he's a convicted felon, he's lied under oath, something of course they're going to bring up in cross. but if you think back, and i think we cannot stress this enough, with the trump civil fraud judgment and judge engoron in that judgment he stated, i find michael cohen credible. and we saw that today, nicolle, on the stand from michael cohen's testimony. i think the question is going to be how in fact if plays when it comes to cross-examination. but you are right. with regards to the coordination in the leadup to 2016, it is astounding to think about the details. now, whether or not those details can in fact be corroborated, right? or the jury believes michael cohen at his word is really the question. >> i mean, harry, i guess, again, i say this every hour, the jury will determine everyone's credibility and whether the case has been made. but to believe that michael cohen is out there lying,

they'll have to also believe that hope hicks is lying. they'll have to also believe david pecker is lying. they'll have to also believe keith davidson is lying. they'll have to believe that everyone that corroborates a piece of this is in on it. >> they'll have to believe that allen weisselberg was ready to defy donald trump and make all these -- they'll have to believe because of how trump has played it that stormy daniels is lying. i mean, it's now trump or everyone else. they've played a terrible hand that way. one very interesting point, by the way, about pecker and the coordination with cohen. there's something called a rule against witnesses. cohen's coordination is not because he's studied. he hasn't been able to know what the other witnesses have said. and there was an important point where you knew it today. she asked him, did you go to pecker to complain about your bonus, et cetera? which pecker testified he had. cohen said, i don't remember. so you know, it really came through that that's an independent recollection that he has. >> with hope hicks as well. >> yeah. >> in fact, hope hicks, her testimony could have gone poorly

for the prosecution. but there were nuggets in there that really helped build their case. >> totally. >> and michael cohen today offered even more voluminous evidence. that was documented. of the amount of communication he had with her about this fear they had that the "access hollywood" tape would derail his election chances. >> five calls that morning. >> and then all the communication where they're coming through keith schiller as well when the "wall street journal" reports about the relationship with karen mcdougal. no one's going anywhere. there's so much more to get to on this historic and monumental day of testimony in the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. we'll be back in just a moment. plus there's new reporting over the weekend in the "new york times" which donald trump said said everyone should read about how the disgraced ex-president may have run afoul of tax laws again. it concerns double dipping and it could leave him with a tax bill topping $100 million. one of the reporters who broke this news story will be our guest later in the broadcast. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ntinues after.

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we're all back. harry, i want to go through some of the testimony with you. i want to ask what you thought of some of the dates that have been entered into evidence and talked around but where michael cohen was really able to drill down on what trump's role -- he put trump in the room in a way others weren't able to. was that effective? >> very. the only thing about it is it's the only part of his testimony that he carries alone. so we have to wait until the cross-examination and even the redirect. i think he will be much better off if he stays cool on cross

and lets them handle it on redirect because that is -- it's critical stuff, and it's not just that it hangs together with his story. it just hangs together with trump. of course trump isn't, you know, just indifferent to if they're going to spend the money. everything makes sense including, by the way, in a way i don't think we understood before, why he tries to get pecker to spend -- to pony up the 130. he tries to get weisselberg. and it's only him, where his loyalty is ultimately repaid in very poor kind. the short answer is yes, it was all of a piece. it was cogent. and that will be their main strategy, is to savage him so much that they can get those details. because the rest of them -- >> the things that only he can -- >> and they are specifically the very points that you're talking about now in october, in january and february. where trump of course is all over it and trump says you guys go take care of it. he signs off on it.

we know that it is phony baloney to call it income and it's all rigged in a way that only makes sense. so i think that even if they savage him if he continues to say yep, my ego was there, yes i lied, et cetera, then he comes through in exactly that material. and that's what matters now. >> how instrumental was his testimony around some evidence that's already been presented to the jury, and that's the allen weisselberg notes on the invoice for the original 130 wire transfer to stormy? >> as you know, for my money, that's the most important document in the whole case. and he gave a very good account of it. weisselberg says bring that document to me. weisselberg does that writing here and he does the writing on the right side. and how else -- and you have the words topped up, or whatever it is. >> plussed up. >> grossed up. >> there it is. grossed up. and it's explained impeccably it

seems to me. i don't think they'll have a counternarrative. i think their only counternarrative will be cohen's a bad guy, he lies a lot, so you can't believe that. but it doesn't follow. that's a non-sec wittar, weisselberg's writing can only be what he says it is. >> and there's a tape recording of donald trump saying talk to allen. meaning allen weisselberg. and set this up. it's a different transaction, but it's the same intent. >> are you worried at all, though, about the fact that there is not a lot of direct evidence that trump knew how they were handing the payout? >> you bet. that's the other thing that's left. >> that's the really -- for me is -- you know, if i was prosecuting this case, you always look at what's the weakest link. and you try to gear your whole presentation around that. the fact that weisselberg is not going to testify is going to be a big question mark for the jury because weisselberg seems to be the one who could connect the

hiding of these business records, the falsification of the business records back to trump. and i don't know how they're going to cross him, but they would be smart to cross him and just go there. >> and really what we have there is circumstantial -- >> a lot of circumstantial -- >> how focused he was on detail. >> circumstantial is sometimes better than a witness, especially if your witness is flawed. but the point is they have yet presented any direct evidence from anybody that donald trump was part of the business record hiding. >> yasmin, let me bring you in on this. that seems to be where it will be relevant by the end to have all the testimony in the record about how trump was involved in everything. that nothing was done without trump's knowledge and/or participation. cohen started the day by saying he was in and out multiple times a day. mcconney has testified to the fact that he got fired for a day when he refused to barter on a bill. so everything financial that was ever touched by anyone was also

touched by trump. it seems that they'll be relying on a lot of that evidence to bolster what claire and harry are talking about. >> it's all entangled. it's all interconnected. hence the reason why the jury really needs to be able to put it together. but how it can be so overwhelming. obviously after you have this entire day of testimony for michael cohen, from michael cohen for the jury to really take that in. i do want to address the elephant in the room that you all were talking about, which is allen weisselberg. this keeps coming up literally in every conversation that i've been having today. and if it's coming up for us it means the jury is certainly thinking about it. and i think it's important, nicolle, if i can for a moment just to explain what's happening with allen weisselberg and why it is we're likely not going to be hearing from him. so on friday nicolle, you and i talked about this on the show, the prosecution said they wanted to admit for evidence the separation agreement that allen weisselberg had with the trump organization where there would be a potential payout or a payout of $2 million over a certain period of time and it would show entanglements that allen weisselberg had currently and ongoing with the trump

organization. hence the reason why he wouldn't necessarily be able to testify in this trial. well, judge juan merchan said that's not necessarily what it shows, if you want to show that allen weisselberg cannot testify or refuses to testify then subpoena him, call him up. the prosecution hadn't even attempted to do that. and it's because the prosecution doesn't feel as if he'll either cooperate and/or he'll get on the stand and he'll lie. he's already serving time in jail. so they kind of put it on the side until today in which this morning judge juan merchan actually came up before he even started with quaulg michael cohen to the stand, the prosecution calling michael cohen to the stand, he said i'm not going to allow admitting that separation agreement into evidence. and so that is why allen weisselberg will not be taking the stand. and that's going to be -- that's going to be a difficult, empty hole for the jury to have to fill because he really is the ultimate only corroborator for so many of these kind of more anecdotal stories and doesn't have necessarily that evidence

number 35 or, you know, that bank document that you brought up to back up the story that he is telling. allen weisselberg would be the guy to be able to back up michael cohen in all of these anecdotal stories that he has told. the meeting on january 16th in which they decided to pay michael cohen off, $35,000 a month over a 12-month period. but allen weisselberg won't be taking the stand. so the jury is is going to have to, going back to what you said, put all of this together. right? put hope hicks together. put madeline westerhouse together, michael cohen together, david pecker together. all of those stories into one to make their ultimate decision. >> what will the jury be told about -- will they know he's in jail because he committed crimes for trump? >> they'll be told, though, if the d.a. asks, and they will, a missing person instruction, basically don't draw any conclusions. >> so they won't know he's at rikers. >> that's right. >> and keep in mind the defense isn't going to call him either.

>> exactly. >> that will be in the jury's mind too. >> there's ways in closing argument they can get to inferences about that without crossing a line because, you know, witnesses can be -- >> he's in the yard? what do you mean? >> the missing person instruction. and the missing person instruction is you should draw no inferences from missing persons. and you can say, you should not draw any inference against the defense or the prosecution. and by saying that you're putting in their mind, well, yeah, why didn't they call him if he can say trump knew nothing about hiding these records, why isn't the defense putting him on the stand? >> it is interesting. dylan howard is another missing person, with a spine injury. >> keith schiller. >> keith schiller. what do you think? >> i think there's a group of people who are willing to sort of take a beating to stay on the right side of donald trump. i think allen weisselberg basically grew up in the trump organization, with donald trump.

he was fred trump's accountant. he's not even the chief -- you have to have more than ten people in your company to really have a chief financial officer. this is a gas station. the trump organization. he's a glorified accountant. and you know, they went to wakes with other family members. if there's anyone who might feel part of the trump family, it's allen weisselberg. but even there trump needed to stick $2 million into his separation agreement just to ensure he'd shut up. but his son worked in the same orbit of people that revolved around the trump organization. so i do think in weisselberg's case it might be raw loyalty. i think the other thing that is a problem with this jury is whether or not they'll extend these series of misdemeanors around the bookkeeping fraud, which think is plain on its face, and say yeah, that also amounted to election interference, it raises these charges from misdemeanors to felonies and puts trump in more legal peril. that's another risk in the outcome of this case. >> that might be the last

witness, by the way, on both sides, some kind of election law expert to speak to that. >> and that's why all the testimony solicited since day one has been around taking inside the campaign after "access hollywood" came out including with michael cohen today. yasmin, thank you so much for starting us off from down there. harry thank you for starting us off. tim and claire stick around a little bit longer. when we come back, trouble of a different variety for the disgraced ex-president. the irs finding donald trump used dubious accounting to claim improper tax breaks on his chicago skyscraper. you don't say. and how he now could face a mammoth tax bill. one of the reporters who broke that story will be our guest after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. (vo) explore the world the viking way from the quiet comfort of elegant small ships with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best

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for years donald trump engaged in deceptive business practices. donald trump may have authored "the art of the deal," but he perfected the art of the steal. the scale and the scope of donald trump's fraud is staggering. and so too is his ego and his belief that the rules do not apply to him. >> new york attorney general letitia james reacting there to the $454 million judgment against the disgraced ex-president and his company after a new york judge found that he had fraudulently inflated his wealth.

now, just three months after that verdict amid another trial for falsifying business records, "the new york times" is today reporting that donald trump may have once again lied about his wealth for his own personal gain. from that brand new reporting, quote, former president trump used a dubious accounting maneuver to claim improper tax breaks from his troubled chicago tower. that's according to an irs inquiry uncovered by the "new york times" and pro publica. using a years-long audit battle over the claim could mean a tax bill of more than $100 billion. the core of the irs's position is that trump violated a law meant to prevent double dipping on tax-reducing losses. if the irs prevails it could bring trump's legal judgments to over $640 million. joining our conversation, "new york times" reporter russ beutner. he spent years reporting on trump's finances. his byline on that new reporting. jim and claire are still with us. russ, it's almost -- it's hard to say unbelievable.

it's completely unbelievable, but it's extraordinary. take us through your reporting. >> so what happened here is that donald trump -- this was his last great bit of new construction, the largest building he would have ever done. it appeared on the first season of "the apprentice." but he ran several years behind construction. he initially announced it in 2001. he was going to demolish the old sun-times river right on the river, right on the bank of the chicago river, and construct this 92-story behemoth. for a while he thought about building the tallest building in the world there. he announced it, he talked about it on "the apprentice" in 2004. but he fell behind construction and he went over budget. and by the time the financial crisis in 2008 hit he hadn't yet been able to sell the units that he needed to sell in order to pay off a massive mortgage that was coming due that year. and so unknown to everybody at the time, while he's still trying to convince buyers to buy these apartments, he declared his investment in the entire

project worthless, took a deduction that looks to us like it was around $650 million, and then over the course of the years merged this company into another company, kind of a shell game of a move. it had no real business purpose to it at all. but he used that then to declare in essence those losses again to get further tax write-offs as he tpd to sell units over the next few years. and our estimate is if the irs prevailed in this thing, and i can explain how we came to know about this, he would face a bill of up to $100 million. >> explain how you came to know about it, russ. >> part of it came through -- the chicago tower's always been a mystery to me. when we looked at his tax returns that we received in 2020 and also some of the interaction we did with his father's money in 2018, what happened there was always a mystery. it clearly did not make money. there were about 15 or 18

entities that were part of it. i was pretty good at tracking money through all these things, but it was just a hot mess. there was hundreds of millions of dollars of debt that was forgiven. some of that he paid taxes on. so it was sort of this open question in my mind on what was there. and then when the attorney general filed her suit there was this one line in there that he had declared this building worthless and sworn testimony that they had received said that he took it out of those annual statements of financial condition that he gave to everyone to brag about his wealth just so it wouldn't conflict, if he assigned any value to one of those it wouldn't conflict with the position they'd taken with the irs. well, that kind of jumped off the page. so i started looking at that also. eventually i teamed up with paul keel, propublica. he's also really a tax expert as well. and we kind of tried to drill down into this. and we discovered that there had been in 2019 the irs had filed this 20-page sort of

announcement to the accounting community that they have this difficult case with an investment they then declared worthless and then the person seems to have taken losses again on it and the irs was saying they could not do that and we were able to ascertain that that was donald trump. >> it's unbelievable. it's almost cinematic. i have two questions for you. one, what is the worthlessness deduction supposed to be? and two, i want to show you what trump had to say about it. i have to sneak in a break first. can you stick around? >> yeah, absolutely. >> we'll all be right back. don't go anywhere. >> we'll all be right back don't go anywhere.

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this summer i plan to begin building the 90-story trump international hotel and tower. it'll be a mind-boggling job to manage. when it's finished, in 2007, the trump international hotel and tower chicago could have a value of $1.2 billion and will raise the standards of architectural excellence throughout the world. >> of course it's not at all how it worked out. russ, what is the worthlessness deduction which trump used for this property that he described as mind-boggling and raising the standards of architectural excellence around the world? he then declares it under the worthlessness deduction. what is that supposed to be for? >> well, look, one interesting thing about familiarizing yourself with tax law is that words mean one thing in english and then they mean something else in tax law.

and to think that it's going to -- there's going to be an intersection there, it can really throw you for a loop. it's supposed to be that you bought something and you've made a decision that at that point in time it no longer has value and it's not likely to have value in the future. so there's some oddities in that. it wouldn't make sense that you would be able to hold on to it if you were going to declare it worthless. but you can hold on to it. you can declare it worthless, take a complete write-off where everything you've spent on it, basically forecasting your losses into the future and claiming them all at once. that's the general idea of it. kind of makes sense when you're looking at stocks. when you're looking at real estate and more complicated investments, it gets a little more confusing. >> and trump always benefited from that confusing, murky area. but he also was allergic to ever sort of revealing his tax practices. >> completely. and you know, these stories are hard to get. they're very hard-won. huge props to russ, "the new york times" and propublica for digging into a story like this

because they're hard to get. this building is interesting to me because when trump almost went bankrupt in the early 1990s he guaranteed personally about 900 million of more than $3 billion he owed banks. he was about to go under personally. it wasn't just a series of corporate bankruptcies. and but for his father's wealth and his siblings' willingness to bail him out he would have gone under and you never would have heard of donald trump again. >> amazing. >> yeah. and i was with him in mar-a-lago when this building was in motion. and he was saying, you know, when i was younger my father always told me never personally guarantee anything. and i didn't listen to my pop and i went and guaranteed all these loans and it really got me in trouble and now i've gotten religion and i'll never do that again. and i said to him, so you haven't personally guaranteed anything on anything you own right now or you're building? and he said no, not a thing. that was in -- we were in mar-a-lago. that was probably the spring of 2005. when this project starts to go under during the great recession, you know, a few years

later it turns out that he had guaranteed about -- personally about $100 million of the loans on this project. so he was standing there lying to me -- he said i had this great revelation and journey, you know, my father's son. and the fact is he never learns. he is not risk-averse. he gorges on debt. and it gets him in trouble time and time again because he doesn't manage budgets well. he's really not a good visionary. and he's not a good operator. >> and he hates all of those difficult truths. i was thinking when we came in with letitia james how credible she found michael cohen. i was thinking about judge engoron, who's looked at some of these sorts of issues, that he instructed the jury that michael cohen was a credible person. and i was thinking about the fact that michael cohen ends up before the before the mueller probe, and that's how he ends up charged criminally with election interfeerns crimes in the sentencing memo because of trump tower. the mueller folks want to know about trump's mass shootings to

build trump tower moscow. he is everything tim just said he is. >> yeah, and there are so many things that are weird about the people who have this undying loyalty to donald trump. there's two categories. there's the category of the cowardly republicans who are afraid not to be for donald trump pub luckily, even though behind his back they think he's a horrible person, a horrible leader, and a horrible, horrible president. then there's the bucket of people who really believe in this guy. >> who's in that one? >> the people at his rallies. >> supporters. >> it's about -- >> 30% of the gop. >> it's more probably than 30% of the gop, it's probably 25% of the country. you know, that believe that his stuff, they believe what he says. they actually think he's a good businessman. i mean, this is one of the worst businessmen ever in the history of the planet. i don't know ever if he's totally ever been -- you would know better than i would, but it doesn't look like he's ever

actually been flush. it always looks like he's been this close to debt outwalking assets for most of his life, adult life. but these folks think, oh, wl, he'll be a great president because he's such a good businessman. >> it's the power of the apprentice, by the way. >> reality tv. >> other people -- correct, that looks enviable, maybe? russ, again, your reporting is extraordinary. we appreciate you for joining us to talk about it. thank you so much. tim, clara, thank you for being at the table for a whole hour. we're so grateful. another break for us. we'll be right back. her break for us we'll be right back. fresh appr oach to dog food. everyday, more dog people are deciding it's time to quit the kibble and feed their dogs fresh food from the farmer's dog. made by vets and delivered right to your door precisely portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come.

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empty promise that became a punch line that infrastructure week was coming during the trump presidency, the biden administration is taking the week to point to the more than 4,500 communities across all 50 stauts that are benefiting from the bipartisan infrastructure bill. just a few highlights for what that has meant. 13,000 bridge repair project, improvements on more than 250 miles of road, funding to help replace up to 1.7 million toxic lead pipes. we'll stay on that. another break for us, we'll be right back. r break for us, we'll be right back since my citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts

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