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welcome back to the weekend, everyone. donald trump's 2016 election interference trial resumes tomorrow morning with a very key witness. multiple sources have confirmed to nbc news that michael cohen will take the stand.

his testimony over the hush money payment made to stormy daniels is expected to last several days. the prosecution plans to call one more witness before resting its case. who exactly that other witness is remains a mystery. joining us to discuss it all is a former member of the probe, andrew weisman, who hosts the podcast prosecuting donald trump. and lockland cart right is here, he doesn't have a webby but he has the ticket. >> so andrew, you have for the duration of this offered up a master class for anyone who has been following the numerous trials here. i sit at your knee for a lot of this stuff because you bring a lot of the elements of insight and understanding to make it clear for us what we are looking at. i want to play for you michael cohen. he is the guy starting tomorrow

morning. he was on our program back on april 13. this is what he said about himself as a narrator of a story. >> just because the media wants to portray me as the key witness, i don't care what they call me, that's what i am. i'm the narrator of the story, the story that is going to be explaining the documentary evidence as well as the corroborating testimony. the facts and circumstances are what they are. and again, it will come out at trial and again, i am merely along with a dozen other people, i'm just witness. >> a narrator, witness, despite the drama leading up to his appearance tomorrow with the judge having to tell the prosecutors, please tell them to shut up, how do you see him? is he a narrator at this point? or is a lot of that narration

already in place and he is just the exclaimation point? >> it is little of both. we have a lot of evidence already establishing the two aspects of the case, the election fraud conspiracy and the cover up. having said that, i think michael cohen will give very interesting details, some important direct evidence, especially circumstantial evidence directly from his conversations with donald trump,plerly at the time that he makes the payments in october of 2016 and also the reimbursement scheme which is really the heart of the case at which i think he will say he explained to and discussed with donald trump. and for that, although there is corroboration, what i used to

around the edges, the actual conversation is between donald trump and cohen. so what i'm looking for is not really on direct examination. he will be fine on direct examination. i think it really comes down to how much he keeps his cool on cross-examination. >> there was an interesting detail and one i want to get your sense of who that other witness will be other than cohen, but also this about alan weisselberg. the judge wanted to know if either side had subpoenaed him and neither had. trump's attorneys looked visibly upset at the judge saying he may bring weisselberg into the court. any sense of who the witness is? >> my former boss who has a spinal injury and can't be here,

there is speculation that it could be a former trump body guard. i think that cohen is important because he is the connective tissue between david pecker, dylan howard, as they are doing the catch and kills and then with donald trump. we have his all laid out in forensic detail from both david pecker, the first witness, to keith davidson, and so on. but the person who can weave all of this detail together is michael cohen. and we had stormy daniels this past week in the court with everything thrown at her, the nuts, and she was calm. >> she was extraordinarily disciplined. >> if cohen can be as disciplined there, it will work. >> the if is doing a lot of work. >> the if is heavy in that

sentence. i guess to take a look ahead a little bit, so michael cohen testifies, he could bow on the stand a day, it's not going to be a day. he will probably be on the stand two days, maybe three. >> yeah, potentially. >> you think all week? >> it is a short week. we are not sitting on friday because of baron's graduation. so i expect him to be up all week including the cross. >> so he is up all week, then there is a cross and the prosecution has one more witness. what happens after that? tell the people at home. give a little forecasting to folks. >> so it is time for the defense if they want to put on a case to put on a case. it remains to be seen. every trial, almost every trial i have done the defense beforehand says our defense case will be a week, two weeks and it

is usually zero. i wouldn't expect a terribly long case but you never know. sometimes they do something very small which is let's say they had a witness who said something that the defense says was inconsistent when they were interviewed by the fbi or the state prosecutors, so they can sort of prove that up. they can call an agent to the stand to testify about what was previously said. that's a pretty low risk but also short defense case. again, obviously, the unknown is whether donald trump defies the expectations that we all have and decides he will take the stand. i don't think that with the state, you are thinking great, bring it on. i wouldn't anticipate that. but you never know. >> i think if we get donald

trump on the stand, it's going to be like yesterday's rally. it will be a free wheeling, free style session and i don't see that happening. that would be manna from heaven for the prosecution. but i think that it will be a pretty short defense and then we will get into summary and i think we could have a result by just after memorial day. >> can i say one other thing? if donald trump gets on the stand and does what he did at the rallies, the difference between the rallies and the courthouse and being on the stand as a witness, he is under oath. there are penalties for not telling the truth when you are in a court of law under oath, penalties that include jailtime. much as been made about marilyn mosby in maryland but part of why she is being sentenced is because she perjured herself on the stand. doesn't it bolster the point that it is less likely that he

does take the stand? because we can't ensure that he will tell the truth, his lawyers can't. >> yes, and there is cross-examination. and this is an incredibly experienced prosecution team. this is not like anything he has faced to date. these people know how to cross-examine. and he has to answer. he is in front of a judge who is extremely experienced and disciplined. he will be forced to answer questions and not rattle on. if i were in the prosecution's seat and he were taking the stand, i would think this is manna from heaven because there is so much to cross-examine him on. in many ways, he has way too much to explain in a credible way. and it also changes essentially what the jury has to do. instead of thinking about the case, has the state proved the

case beyond a reasonable doubt. you have all of this evidence on one side and you have credibility of donald trump on the other and it is just like which makes more sense. it is like which would you believe and that's going to be a tough one for the defense. remember, so far, there is no alternative narrative that has been laid out by the defense to explain all of the evidence that we have seen. so that is a difficulty. many people say and i agree that trials are really about competing narratives but right now there is -- no one has articulated a narrative that makes any sense, let alone, a coherent narrative to explain all of the evidence. >> is there a feeling that they don't need to do that? is there a feeling that they just need to poke enough holes and create enough doubt? it wasn't about the election. it was about his family and phone calls and there could have been pocket dials. if you poke enough holes, you

can get one person on the jury to say i'm not 100% convinced. >> i think that's right but it is useful when you are trying to poke holes to come up with an explanation. i think there is another thing at work here which is this is the former president of the united states. i think that might, if you are a juror, you might normally be thinking, the state has to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt but you may be unconsciously think, it is even higher than that. i think thet is something the defense has going for it. >> true. all right, andrew, you are sticking with us to discuss more on the trump trial and so much more. and then clarence thomas sounds off on the nasyness and lies he says he has been facing lately. this is the weekend. s been facin lately this is the weekend. be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry.

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light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. the prosecution could rest its case by the end of the week in donald trump's 2016 election

interference trial. back with us is andrew weissmann and lachlan cartwright. before we get further down the road on this, you made a point at the end which it paused me and symone here in washington when you noted about the burden that the prosecutor has beyond a reasonable doubt because it is potus, they may be thinking you need to bring more than that. how does a prosecutor, this is the first time we are doing this obviously, but how do you think he guards against that burden being raised on him which in my view would be unreasonable because that's not what the standard is? >> that is a great question. so i will at least give you a contrary. when i have overseen terrorism cases, i always thought that jurors might impose a lower

standard thinking, if there is any chance that this person is a terrorist, i want them behind bars which of course is not what they should be thinking. and now they are supposed to just be following the judge's instructions. it is a tricky thing for the prosecutors to address because they are not supposed to talk about what the law is. that's supposed to be for the judge. but i think they can stress that he should be treated like everyone else and it should be the same standard but having said that, you really just can't control the sort of what unconsciously is happening in the jury room with people maybe giving him sort of the benefit of the doubt more than they would in a routine case. a lot of times that happens when you have rich, powerful, white

defendants, depending on the composition of the jury that hold the government to a different standard and it can be completely unconscious in terms of why they are doing that. but i just do think that there is that risk that there will be thinking there should be more proof. having said that's, i think so far, the case has sort of substantial direct and i think more than substantial circumstantial evidence, both of which the judge will say are competent evidence. you can actually convict only on circumstantial evidence and in many ways circumstantial evidence can be sometimes be more powerful. here between the tape recording, the text, the testimony of david pecker, of keith davidson, and hope hicks who talked about

direct conversations that are incredibly damning in respect to the former president, far more damning than stormy daniels whoz testimony is kind of irrelevant to the case. hicks and pecker indicated, these are people who are close to the former president, and had incredibly damaging things to say. >> the point about the jurors is a very important one. we have already seen that the judge, not just subconsciously but consciously also, and i think judge merchan is an up standing jurist, not like she who should not be named, talking about judge canon. but he has said several times, not within ear shot of the jury but when they are having the hearings about the gag orders, the judge himself is saying, look, you are the former

president of the united states and you could potentially be the president again. i am not trying to hamper your ability to speak. he even nodded to the fact that there is a camera outside of courtroom. the judge himself is raising the bar or lowering the standard, however you want to look at it because donald trump is the person in the seat. i wonder if the jury will do the same. we will wait and see. michael cohen tomorrow, and michael cohen is going to help us get to the intent, right? all of these other people can talk about all of the things but it is michael cohen who brokered the deals and talked to the people including donald trump himself. >> that's right. and i think about the audio recording that has already been played in court of michael cohen and donald trump discussing getting all of the material from david pecker in case in the words of trump he gets hit by a truck and they discuss getting

the karen mcdougal story and getting that material back and there is a discussion on how much that would cost. it shows that both trump and cohen were obviously aware of this catch and kill and of the material that had been purchased. so michael cohen will be able to go into more detail about that and obviously about what happened around stormy daniels in light of the access hollywood tape. he will also be able to go into what happened with dino, the doorman. and you can really sort of bring all of this together and place donald trump there with the signing of the checks. it is going to be a big week. >> i'm struck by how quickly this has proceeded. i think in part we were told that jury selection could take two weeks and it took one week. they are moving very rapidly through the case. i have to imagine that is notable in the courtroom. >> it is.

and i have taken note with judge merchan, a witness will finish their testimony and he will say, call your next witness. and it is even before the next witness is out of the court. a fast game is a good game. it is very clear when there is a moment, there has to be a side bar or something that needs to be said, he will reschedule that for after the jury is out of the room. he wants to schedule this at a good rate and we are ahead of time. and we are headed towards memorial day weekend where we could have a result from the jury, even just after that, that weekend. so it has been interesting to see him aggressively move it forward. >> in the absence of cameras in the courtroom, thank you for being our eyes and ears. andrew, you are sticking with us. we have a lot to discuss inclouding the double delay, will justice ever be served in

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as many of us were glued to the new york criminal trial, trump quietly scored victories in two other legal battles this week. the judge over seeing the classified documents case postponed that trial indefinitely. an appeals court in georgia has considered removing fulton county district attorney fani willis from the election interference case following a request from trump. this plays into the former president's strategy of delay. anthony cully is joining us, former director of the office of public affairs and former advisor to merrick garland. and andrew weissmann is back with us. >> so, it is not just me on the whole thing with judge aileen cannon. you have richard blumenthol saying this about the ability of her abilities and what she is

doing. just take a listen. >> there are increasing well justified doubts about the ability and the experience that this judge should have to deal with this kind of challenging case and the kind of aberrant and seemingly erratic decisions made by the judge raise questions about whether show should be sitting on a case that is not only high profile but highly challenging in terms of legal, logistical and other issues that are raised. >> at the end of the day, and i want to be careful because we have immense respect for our jurists and the judges and the trials and the process but there is such a thing as qualification and capability given the immense importance of a case and we know

the rotation system in florida just happened to land on her. i guess this is a two parter. why didn't the u.s. government, the doj say, you know what? this trial is too important to put in the hands of an inexperienced judge, one, and then when they didn't do that but saw the wheels coming off this because we all saw where this was going with the delay, that they didn't step in and change up? >> the curious case. when people say the fight is fixed, this is the type of stuff they are talking about. you have a woman who intentionally appears to be dragging her feet. and she is proving herself to appear in my opinion, a maga activist in a black robe who has given trump exactly what he wants, unintentional delay. some people will say she is an inexperienced judge, that she is

up in this satellite facility in palm beach county, she is dealing with classified documents and that requires special handling. all of that may be accurate. but at the end of the day, she is ignoring law, she doesn't appear to have an appreciation of rules of criminal procedure. i will give you an example. next month, she is holding a day long hearing to determine whether or not jack smith, the special counsel in the case has been constitutionally appointed. as andrew weissmann notes, that case is already -- that argument has already been decided. so she is a maga activist. she has a maga slip underneath this black robe and her slippers showing. >> honey, andrew weissmann, she is a maga activist with a maga slip up under there? >> i have nothing as catchy as

that. let's just take some of the things she has done just so people understand. she was reversed not once but twice by the 11th circuit for ruling not one time for trump and one time for the government. all of her rulings have been for donald trump. they have always been in anything critical, unless she is really worried about getting reversed on appeal, she has been ruling the former president in connection with an incredibly serious case involving this country's national security. and to me, the idea that she is going to hold a hearing, an issue of law where this could be decided so quickly as to whether jack smith is appropriately appointed by merrick garland, that issue has been decided when i was on special counsel mueller

by judges who were appointed by both democrats and judges appointed by donald trump that said of course you can do that. i wonder if whether judge cannon will say that bill barr was acting unconstitutional when he appointed john durham or whether merrick garland was acting unconstitutional when he appointed a special counsel for hunter biden, stelin effect, or whether a special counsel was appointed boy merrick garland to examine the current president. this is one where the department of justice has appointed special counsels in the past whether it is for democrats or republicans. and it is something the department can do. the idea that she is using that as a reason to delay this case is so abhorrent and so contrary to the rule of law where as everyone here knows, justice delayed is justice denied. the public has a right to a

speedy trial, not just the defendant. it is something that the supreme court even this supreme court has said that the public has a right to a speedy trial. and she is denying it on the flimsy excuse that she should have gotten around to doing her job. >> and it is not just florida, also georgia. >> that's right. you remember when fani willis took the stand and said i'm not on trial no matter how much you all are trying to put me on trial? they are still trying to put her on trial for a relationship that started and ended before there was -- before a grand jury indicted any of these defendants. there is zero financial relationship. it has nothing to do with the underlying case. i will bring it back. one thing that the trump team has really been scared of this case. that is because at its core, the

evidence not just overwhelming but trump was caught on audio trying to pressure the secretary of state to find votes here. it is not just the evidence. it is that this georgia law provides for a level of transparency that we are not seeing in other cases. this case would have been televised, like o.j. simpson. and it would have been when people were early voting in september and october. they were always afried of this case because of the sunlight of transparency. alicia, you were right in framing this segment, or michael, you were right in framing this segment because he caught a break in both cases. >> both cases. and in georgia, people have pleaded out. let's be clear. the georgia case, we only have a mug shot of donald trump because fani willis and the sheriff said in fulton county, i don't care he is a former president. he will get a mug shot.

the only people who have pleaded out in any of the cases, the indicted cases is in fact the folks in georgia. fani willis is the only person who has gotten people who were with donald trump to flip on him before they go to jail. talking about michael cohen, i like michael cohen but he did come around after being held accountable. and for the people who are watching this at home and they are saying, michael steele is right. donald trump has been able to game the system. and now the only case that the american people are going to see adjudicated before them and they will have to read about it because we can't watch it is the case of the 2016 election interfoorns case about falsified documents and the cover up in manhattan and we don't know what the jury will do about that. we don't know what the jury will say. we don't know if they will say yes, he did those bad things.

they may not come down on those. it is very disconcerting. we witnessed all of these things. we saw him do it. we saw him hold the documents. we saw him. we heard him on the tape. what? >> there is hope, though. >> where? where is the hope? >> this is we the people. we are going to have to step up and vote in historic numbers. we did it in 2020. this man has never gotten more than 47% of the vote. now it is going to be a close election. it always is. but for 44,000 votes in three states, donald trump would be president. we can't be comfortable. at the end of the day, it will come down to the people, to do what we do in democracy. and that is to go to the polls in historic numbers. >> we got to do democracy because he is starting the system. don't go anywhere because we have more questions particularly

about vice president harris's new comments where she blasted the supreme court as an activist court. i don't know if she got to the slip like mr. coley did but we will talk about it. you're watching the weekend. will talk about it you're watching the weekend. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married.

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(jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. (vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. supreme court justice clarence thomas delivered a harsh rebuke to his critics on froid indicating that so-called reckless people in washington bombed his reputation saying quote, the nastyness and the lies are just incredible. justice thomas has been accused of failing to follow a rule of ethics while sitting on the bench and has faced widespread criticism for his involvement in the effort to overturn the 2020 election. andrew weissmann and anthony coley are back with us. >> andrew, i want to connect the dots between a story we were just talking about and this story and help me understand something that a lot of our

viewers want to understand as well. you can't just remove thomas. you can't just remove cannon. but there are these efforts to remove fani willis in georgia. how is that possible? >> i think that is a huge question that a lot of people who are not lawyers and people like you and i have because there is a real inconsistency. let's take judge cannon. a lot of people are saying can't you be removed for seeming to be too partisan or not being competent enough to handle the case? and the answer is unfortunately no. just being incompetent is not enough, just having a delayed schedule is not enough. if you think about what you want the law to be, just because one side or another is disappointed in a ruling, you can't just say i want a new judge. so the law is very difficult to meet that standard. i don't think there is enough to

remove her. the problem with the supreme court is that until they recently passed a sort of toothless ethics code internly by the supreme court themselves, where there is no -- by the way, if you violate it, there is no obvious ramifications, there is no mechanism to remove a justice or recuse them from a case. they have to decide that on their own. the reason justice thomas is in hot water is the fact that he is sitting on an immunity case when his wife was at the ellipse on january 6th at the speech and was communicating with the chief of staff about the biden crime family, how that doesn't create an appearance of impropriety which is the standard for not sitting on a case is beyond me. so many people can look at that and say you are the last person who should start talking about unjust public publicity because

he has really caused the supreme court to really not be held in the respect it should. i agree completely with anthony with respect to fani willis. it is just beyond me how the law would support this. whether you are having a tryst with somebody in your own office is just not a ground for removal. there is such a disparity when you think about that and you think about what judge cannon did. >> or thomas. >> exactly. so there are very different standards going on and it's a great question. >> you know, i think this is why this piece of "the new york times" interview, vice president kamala harris did an interview and they said they don't do interviews but here's one. and the headline is that vp harris warns of the supreme

court future rulings. i worry about fundamental freedoms. she premises this line saying i don't want to youz my voice as an alarmist but this court has made it clore they are willing to undo recognized rights. later in the piece, she goes on because she is pressed and she goes on to say look, look at what justice thomas has said. you doents look at what he has said and what he wrote in a concurring opinion in the dobbs decision and that will tell you where he is going. he wrote that the court should look at decisions like rights of same-sex marriage and contraception. >> that's right. you talk about using a voice. i'm so glad that vice president harris is using her voice to call attention to this issue. she rigly noted that because of donald trump, one in three women of reproductive age live in states without access to an abortion. one in three. the other thing that she said

that is important to know is this is not a hyperbale when she is sounding the alarm on what could come down the road. just yesterday, samuel alito gave a speech where presidents are not written in stone. and you noted that clarence thomas has openly said that the court should reconsider its opinions on contraception and same-sex marriage. this is not a drill. i don't know what more we all need as a country to wake up because while we still have rights. because at some point, if this court goes down the current paths, some of the rights we hold dear, voting rights, reproductive freedoms that we cherish will be in danger. >> the courts feel they need to have an opinion on contraception

in the first place? >> they want to be all up in your business. in november, you can make a decision about if you think that's okay, folks. anthony coley, andrew weissmann, the gurus, thank you so much. andrew has a new episode of the prosecuting donald trump podcast. get your phones out, i know it's sunday, scan the qr code on your screen. you need to start listening. they get into the postponement of trump's florida trial and stormy daniels testimony in new york. next, vice president harris's messages to hbcu grads because it is graduation season and this is the weekend. seaso and this is the weekend. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) salonpas lidocaine flex. a super thin, flexible patch with maximum otc strength lidocaine that contours to the body

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class of 2024, as vice president of the united states, i tell you, no matter what path you choose to follow from here, our nation needs you.

we need your ambition. we need your aspirations. we need your voice. and we need your leadership. and you are ready. >> hbcu alumni vice president kamala harris released a video on x congratulating hbcu grads and encouraging them to reach for greatness. it comes as president biden is set to give the commencement address at morehouse college a week from today. >> yes. now apparently, first of all, shoutout to all of the graduates, the hbcu grads, the pwui grads, community college grads. we love graduation season. and our own gave a commencement at udc on saturday and i hear she was amazing. i think it is lovely. i'm glad the white house does this. i know the hbcu grads are very excited that they have a vice president and i'm waiting to see

what happens at morehouse this week. >> this year is a little more complicated. >> that's what i was telling michael. i was reading something on the social media, a headline from "the new york times" where it talked about how the protests, the anti-war protests have not bubbled up on the hbcu campuses in the same ways they have in the other schools. it doesn't mean the sentiment is there because we know that it is in fact there at morehouse and other places across the country. >> it is but the hbcus have always occupied a different lane than the majority of institutions in the country. they have in large measure been about the work, been about the causes as well and they are not disconnected from it. their expressions of points of view are very much a part of the system as well. so i think people try to make more of it than needs to be made. the fact of the matter is, the

president is going to morehouse. he is going to address the next generation of leaders in this country who will be graduating. and that's significant in and of itself. i don't see it as so much complicated as it is consistent. every president goes to these institutions with something roiling in their administration or in the country. and they try to give context and perspective to it. but you know, for me, it's about celebrating those young men and those who are going to be out there leading and as we saw on the saturday night live skit, we do come at this a little bit differently. >> alexis vanessa roberts. >> if you didn't see that, look it up. >> so accurate. >> let me ask you something to connect the dots on a bunch of things we have been talking about which is we know that the vice president is going to be out there on the stump at a part of what she is going to be

tasked with doing is animating black voters. we have been talking for the past two hours about unequal systems of justice. i wonder if you think that she given her long history with the legal system is actually the right messenger on that specific message? >> well, let's be very clear. she is the vice president of the united states of america and it is again, our institutions are only as strong as the people who are within them, who work to support them, who want to defendant them, our democracy is only as strong as the people who are willing to fight for it and uphold our rules and values. i mean the vice president was district attorney and she was also the top prosecutor in the largest department of justice in the country, second only to the united states department of justice at a time when there were not black women prosecutors in the country. she was a pioneer and the first. we talk about we want equal justice under the law. we want people who are willing

to go into the system and fight on every angle to build it up and make it better and we vilify those who go into the system who do just that. i may think i have a unique perspective because i worked for her and i saw up close and personal how she brought black people into every single room that she went into, not just physically black people but the thoughts and perspectives, young people, folks in the immigration activist community because that is also a community that she has worked very closely with. so i really think that there could not be a better messenger frankly at this point to call the thing a thing and prosecute the case as we saw her do in the new york times. i mean look, you don't want know black prosecutors? you went them folks down there in tennessee and nashville before the naacp went into organize and got you some prosecutors that actually care about doing benevolent prosecuting? or do you want joe smith and

tommy and you know kevin. >> save some of that energy for our handoff to ali velshi because he lives for it. don't know anywhere. the next hour, congresswoman madeleine dean will talk to ali on how democrats swooped in to save speaker johnson's job. we'll be right back. speaker johnson's job we'll be right back. (knock on the door) are you using all the old spice? oops. ♪ (old spice mnemonic) ♪

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