hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we'll start with, this is not normal. and then we'll get to the news. who would have thought that a one-night stand at a lake tahoe celebrity golf tournament back in 2006 would have led to today? riveting, bombshell, sometimes ickey testimony from the woman at the heart of the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. stormy daniels herself.

she's on the stand right now. she's actually being grilled by one of trump's lawyers, susan necheles. she's been a backseat player so far. it's apparent that today was her big day. stormy daniels is on cross after hours of testifying to some of the things donald trump and his allies, enablers have spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to hide and suppress. stormy daniels went through all of the painstaking details of her 2006 sexual encounter with donald trump down to the pattern that she remembers seeing in the trump's hotel room. many objections sustained. stormy daniels described reluctantly agreeing to have dinner with donald trump, thinking it could be good for her career. at one point during their time together, she said she asked herself, quote, how did i misread this so badly to get here? that's when it became intimate.

sitting ten feet away from the ex-president, stormy daniels said that donald trump would call her sometimes, two to three times a week. from nbc news' reporting from inside the courtroom, quote, daniels recalled trump calling with an update or a nonupdate, if he didn't have one, for "the apprentice" and he would always call her honey bunch. she was offered $10,000 from "in touch" magazine for her story. she said, quote, i freaked out. i don't know who leaked it. i said no at first, but they said they would run it anyway. she ended up during the interview so she could, quote, control the narrative. shortly after that, a harrowing moment for stormy daniels and her daughter. she told the jury she was threatened in a parking lot. here's how she described that threat to "60 minutes" in an interview in 2018. >> i was in a parking lot going to a fitness class with my infant daughter. i was taking the seats facing backwards in the backseat, diaper bag, you know, getting

all the stuff out, and a guy walked up on me. and said to me, leave trump alone. forget the story. and then he leaned around and looked at my daughter and said, a beautiful little girl. it would be a shame if something happened to her mom. and then he left. >> you took it as a direct threat? >> absolutely. >> flash forward to the year 2016 and stormy's agent or manager, gina rodriguez, suggests stormy should sell her story, saying interest in her account spiked after the infamous "access hollywood" tape is released. from nbc news's reporting, quote, the prosecution asks how did you feel about the $130,000 at the time? daniels responds, i didn't care about the amount. she was just, get it done. the money didn't matter to me. i didn't pick a number. stormy daniels continued. the prosecution went on to ask, why didn't you ask for more money? and daniels answered, because i didn't care about the money. testimony about their sexual encounter prompted team trump to move from mistrial this

afternoon. trump's lawyer, todd blanche, said her comments about her safety were prejudice judicial. the woman at the heart of the hush money case on the stand, as we speak, is where we go inwith some of our favorite reporters and friends at the table for the hour. former executive editor, special correspondent for "the hollywood reporter," lochlin cartwright, andrew weissmann, and deputy chief for the southern district of new york, christie greenberg is back. with start with von hilliard outside the courthouse. there's so much to say, so much to relive. we have two hours and rachel maddow coming to do some with us later in the show. let's start with what is -- what trump is on trial for.

let's live where you and i almost always do in stormy daniels' testimony about what happens to her story about her sexual encounter with donald trump from the day after the "access hollywood" tape drops. >> reporter: it was the day after the "access hollywood" tape dropped. about 36 hours later is when keith davidson and dylan howard of the "national enquirer" started exchanging text messages about stormy daniels' story. it was acknowledged by dylan howard, editor-in-chief of the "national enquirer," that if her story went public, if she went out and talked about it in the closing weeks of the 2016 election, it would be, quote, the nail in the coffin for donald trump's 2016 presidential campaign. three days after the drop of the tape on october 10th is when michael cohen was connected to stormy daniels' attorney, keith davidson. that is when negotiations over the selling of her story and ultimately the nondisclosure agreement with $130,000 in tow

came to fruition. stormy daniels' story never became public before the 2016 election. what you heard today from stormy daniels testifying to this jury was a chronically of how she got there. it wasn't just a one-night stand in 2006, four months after barron trump was born, instead it was two to three times a week, receiving phone calls from donald trump in the months after, it was a meeting in january of 2017 in hollywood at a gala for trump vodka in which she was introduced to karen mcdougal, all around the idea that at one point potentially she would be put onto "the apprentice" or "celebrity apprentice" and this led her to trump tower, the executive suite where she saw the executive assistant and met with donald trump, again with the idea of appearing on "the apprentice" dangling in front of her. ultimately she realized she was never going to be on the show and that's when she cut off communications. over the course of the last 18 years, from 2006 to now, the

motives and understanding of what her story could mean for donald trump politically, but also for her and her own life, they have gone up and down. that is what led her today to testify for all of these hours here and answering the series of questions from the prosecution and now under cross-examination, responding to donald trump's attorney, when asked whether she is making money off the fact she had sex or alleged to have had sex with donald trump, she responded that this is my story. >> there's so much there. i'm going to start with the sex. this is not official transcript but from our reporter's notes frsd the courtroom. stormy daniels, i came out, was washing my hands, touching up my lipstick. i noticed a leather bag inside the toile retry bag. what was inside the bag? i looked. it was old spice, man stuff, all

gold. gold tweezers and stuff. i walked out of the bathroom. prosecutor, did you try to call anyone while you were in the bathroom? stormy daniels, when i came out of the bathroom, i expected to exit, go around the bed and back to where we were talking and say it's time to go, we've been in here a long time. when i opened the door to come out, donald trump had come into the bedroom, he was wearing his boxer shorts and a t-shirt. prosecutor, how did you feel? at first i was startled like a jump scare. i wasn't expecting him to be there minus a lot of clothing. that's when the room spun and i thought, oh, my god, what did i misread to get here? the intention was clear, someone stripped down to their underwear and posing on the bed waiting for you. when i exited, he was on the bed, she posed how he was posed. i tried to make a joke nervously and stepped out to leave. it was a fun house playing out in slow motion. i thought, great, i put myself in this bad situation. he stood up and put himself between me and a door not in a threatening way. he said, wait, i thought we were

getting somewhere. he said, if you want to get out of that trailer park. she goes on to describe how she feels afterwards. she goes on to talk about all the contemporaneous people she tells afterwards. she describes no physical threat, no physical menace on the part of donald trump. but she articulates feeling then a power disparity that plays out for many years. he holds over her, not a promise, but a possibility of appearing on his show. he also, this was stunning to me, promises to cheat and give her all the answers. like everything he does is a lie and a scam. >> yes, that threat -- not threat. she's very clear he did not threaten her. but that carrot of saying, you can be on "the apprentice" and the way he did it initially, i'm just going to check my notes here. he said, you remind me of my daughter. she is smart and blond and beautiful and people

underestimate her as well. you can show the world you're not a dumb bimbo. you can be on this show and do well and that would promote yourself. >> he says the women he has sex with reminds him of his daughter in the retelling. there's that part. >> that part is cringe-worthy. also lends to her credibility. in the opening statement defense is staying that stormy daniels is a liar and she made all this up. she had so much detail about their conversations about talking about melania, what he was wearing at various points. she knows the tile, what the color of the tile was. i mean, there's such vivid detail, you felt like you were with her in that room. when she's describing the things he is saying to her, again, how gross so much of it is, you know, i found her to be credible when she was walking through just because of the level of detail that she was able to describe. >> i want to read one more thing. it isn't what people are going to be talking about tomorrow, but she tells about her childhood. she grew up in baton rouge. she lives in florida now with

her partner. she shares custody of her young daughter, with her daughter's partner. she and her partner have known each other 25 years. she describes her childhood in louisiana, says she came from a low income family, how her mom would disappear. she doesn't insinuate addiction clearly but it's sort of left that she was in and out of her life. she said she was basically appear adult by the time she was 17. she went to a strict christian school. she studied engineering. she wanted to be a vet. she took veterinarian medicine classes. she was editor of her high school paper. she was with trump because she wanted to be taken seriously as a writer and a director. and he's asking her about the adult film industry. he asks her about how they protect them from stds and if they wear condoms. she says, they do, they get tested regularly. he asks when she was last tested. she basically says she's clean. trump is known the world over as a germophobe.

there are granular details in anyone covering trump knows rings true. >> one thing i was struck by is just if you are in a position of saying something that donald trump wants to say is false, you need to have the receipts. this is brad raffensperger knew somebody needed to record that. and this is the same. this is what happens if you -- let's just assume she is telling the truth. there are these details where she might have lots and lots of issues but the story rings true in terms of the core and why they were paying for it at the time they were. by the way, it doesn't actually matter legally, but take as a given, this is such a classic example that you -- with donald trump, you have to be

corroborated up one side, down the other. and then you also think about if you're accepting what she says, you don't sign up for this. one thing the prosecution will come back on redirect, it's very much what stormy daniels said, i made money and i also lost a lot, and nobody is waking up saying, oh, i can't wait to be cross-examined and have this huge mega phone criticizing me and focusing on every flaw in my life because of something that happened to me. >> great point. it's a great point. again, i mean, the -- none of what she describes in the beginning of the day is criminal. picks up a woman at a golf course. she puts his bodyman, kurt schiller in her phone as kurt trump, she still has his number in her phone. these are all the exhibits. >> and he has her number. >> and renna graf has her number. >> which she puts into donald trump's phone and says i saw her

show up as she said at trump tower. so the level of details are something that the defense has to be a little careful with. yes, of course, just the fact that she was paid for silence and the fact that she, of course, changed her story because once she was paid to have an nda, she's like, nothing happened. but we know something happened. >> catch and kill. we know we started throwing it around because we've been talking about trump for so long. you sort of brought us inside what that looks like. how weird this arrangement was with trump. but who -- i thought she did some -- i feel bad that i always describe her as porn star stormy daniels. she was someone with a life and a child and her mother disappeared when she was 17. but for having sex with donald trump in tahoe, i don't want to use the word seduced, but lures her in with conversations that

she thinks are about her career, about the films she directs. and then she's so, for whatever reason, eager to keep the story silent. she talks about her partner is struggling with alcoholism and postpartum after her daughter is born. i thought it was a little anatomy of whose stories can be caught and killed. >> and there was this retelling where the story starts bubbling up with "in touch" magazine and she's put in this position where she feels if she doesn't cooperate with the reporter, she won't own her story. that's the first attempt this happens to come out. >> how does that get out? how does "in touch" have -- >> they must have had a tip-off. one of her friends might have sold her out. the reporter says, you might as well cash in as well so, therefore, own the story. that goes on. i think that was around 2011. then the dirty website, the gossip website, then the story again resurfaces. keith davidson manages to do a

cease and desist and gets the story off until it comes back around in 2016 during the election. and we know from past evidence that gina rodriguez, her agent, dylan howard's top sources, was trying to shop the story in the summer of 2016. there isn't that much interest. fast forward to the "access hollywood" story, you have dylan howard, david pecker, very keen to take this story off the market, although david pecker is not keen to be the bank, and puts them in touch with michael cohen who has to do that payoff. to me it was interesting to see this series of events of her story finally come into public view. >> i thought it was interesting, again, understanding the karen mcdougal catch and kill through a lot of your appearances, i thought it was interesting that stormy came before karen. we're not sure if karen mcdougal will testify. the beta case is mcdougal. that is when pecker is still at the bank.

pecker comes in and says, i'm not a bank and cohen and trump falsify business records to pay stormy. just talk about the practice of moving from pecker as the bank to pecker drawing this line and says, i cants be laying out $130,000. as you educated to us, it's so above the amount you had to work with. talk about what happens from mcdougal to stormy. >> i think what's, again, important to note here is that american media at that point, the company i was working for, we were de facto part of the campaign. i just didn't know about it at the time. we were being used as research and being used as this outfit to calm them down and take them off the market. karen mcdougal happens. by the time stormy daniels is there, firstly, david pecker is aware of the campaign finance issues because the lawyer going at him got that advice and said, this is a bad idea. secondly, he's annoyed he's not

being paid back for these other payoffs. and says, you guys handle it. the difference is dylan howard gets intimately involved in helping this situation along mainly because of keith davidson is concerned about being paid. >> what's interesting to me, too, and actually let me come to you, vaughn, real quickly. i understand they're back, the cross-examination of stormy daniels has continued. i wonder if there's a window here where on the redirect -- i don't know we'll get to that today, if they try to compress this timeline. all the details certainly remind us this is a human being. i'm guilty of this, too. porn star stormy daniels, we say it like it's one word. she brought herself to life today in a way that is beyond the caricature. i know some of that had a legal repercussions that's still clanging around inside that courtroom. but the gun to the head in terms of the frenetic pace, the scheme for which trump is facing felony

charges really, you know, the launch to that is the release of "access hollywood" tape, the difference between how her story was treated before and after, is so stark and cannot be overstated, it would seem. >> reporter: not at all. and the fact is also, i think when we talk about the human experience, right, we're all human where we were in 2006 is different from 2016 to where we are in 2024. in a lot of ways when you talk about the motivations of, let's say, donald trump, number one, even before we get to stormy daniels, donald trump's motivations were to call up the new york post himself and act like he wasn't donald trump and though releasing to the tabloids that he was running around town with women around new york, right? that was an early motivation of donald trump, before he went on to become a presidential candidate for the white house. that led him to august 2015, allegedly, working up a scheme with david pecker and michael cohen to keep those very types

of stories from becoming public over the next year and a half. and, of course, when you get into the white house, even greater motivation to make sure that his image was protected in the minds of his family and the public at large. but when you're talking about stormy daniels, she made clear that in 2011 she did not want her story to at least be made public, back when "in touch" magazine called her up and said, we're going to run a story with or without your comment. she said, okay, i'm going to -- according to her testimony -- try to shape the narrative of it. when the dirty.com posted the publication, she had her attorney send a note asking them to take down the story. she did not want her story to be publicly out there unless she was able to craft her own story. repeatedly, over the course of all of these hours, we have heard stormy daniels repeatedly come back to this being her story. you heard susan necheles, donald trump's attorney, getting at the idea, well it was convenient for you to share your story because you made a lot of money when you tell people you had sex with donald trump. she made the clear statement in

front of this jury, well, this is my story. i did have sex with donald trump. you know, motivation for her come 2016 potentially looking to share her story was, in her words, saying that, you know, she was fearful. she wanted to make sure she and her family were not harmed. that is what the jury, in her own words seating mere feet away from her, that is the story they heard from one individual today. they may never hear donald trump tell his side of the story. it may only be stormy daniels and donald trump's attorneys explain the situation over the course of these 18 years to them. >> just to underscore what vaughn is saying, talking about "the wall street journal" story, "wall street journal" reach out to you for comment? yes. did you respond? no. why didn't you respond? i had an nda. was trump elected approximately four days after this article came out? yes. what was your life like in 2017? stormy daniels, it was my best year ever. i was writing and directing,

very successful adult films. i won my best director award, my horse i bought was ranked eighth in the world. my neighbors who lived next door didn't know who i was. they just knew me as mom. you didn't say anything about trump during this time? no. in january 2018 did you come to learn "the wall street journal" was planning to write on your experience about trump? yes. did they reach you for comment? yes. did you comment in no. why not? i was respecting the nda. there's so much testimony that she abided by to silence. she abides by the hush money. it seems difficult to impeach the hush money herself when you have her now keeping trump secrets. >> i'm really fascinated by what's going to happen on redirect when cross is over because, as you said, the time period that is critical here is that there was no interest pre "access hollywood" and "access hollywood" to the election is the time period. all the efforts to dirty it up,

saying she's a liar and the story changed is belied to where she enters an nda and lives by it. what's fascinating, and i'll be interesting to see if it comes out on redirect, she lives by it and ultimately when this story is released and says this is what happens, she doesn't just go out and talk about it, she brings a lawsuit, which she wins in california to say, i should not be bound by this. and you know what happens in that lawsuit, that's relevant to this case? donald trump submits a brief where he says over and over again, i reimbursed michael cohen for the hush money payments. >> oh, my god. is that evidence in this trial? >> it's not yet. they have put in different evidence where he has said that, but it is -- he has tweeted it. there's a brief on it. i was reading this the other day. >> that's amazing. >> over and over again.

that is so credited cal. again, just quick point, the defense lawyer opened to the jury saying, this was not reimbursed to michael cohen. this is donald trump has said in a court of law that he did. >> all right. no one's going anywhere. we're just getting started. before stormy daniels' testimony took over all of our attention and imagination, if i dare say, prosecutors brought out a key witness to read donald trump's own words about how he ran his business. he describes himself as incredibly hands-on about everything, including financial transactions. the prosecution did this to prove trump knew each and every detail of everything that happened there. we're also, as we mentioned, going to be joined by our colleague rachel maddow. all that and more when "deadline white house" continues. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi,

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come out of a bathroom as a lady and you're not expecting someone to be there and 234 front of you is a man in his underwear, and you go to go around, he's there? what do you call that? blocking? cornering? >> intimidation. >> and a powerful man. >> that story didn't change. i didn't just suddenly enter that or suddenly remember those details. those details are burned into my soul forever. i did remember a little more of the words that he said to me because originally i didn't know they were that important because they weren't direct threats.

it wasn't like, you're going to have sex with me or i'm going to murder you, or don't scream, bad word. >> have you said this before? >> yes. >> okay. it was more like, i thought you wanted to be -- you know, i thought you wanted to be successful. you have to show me what it takes. it was that kind of a thing. >> we're all back. you made an interesting point during the break. president story of stormy daniels is not the story of some power woman that sleeps with donald trump at a tournament where she, too, is playing on the golf course. it's a story of someone who falls for his promise to do something for her career. and you made the point in the break that she does better in her own telling before the story's public. >> correct. and, you know, every year this comes back around, her career, her life is not even just interrupted, it's disrupted to the effect that she, you know, has to leave home at some point.

you know, she is -- her life is turned upside down when that "wall street journal" hits in early 2018. this isn't someone who wants the attention and wants the publicity. >> i know people are really riveted by the cross. we should pay attention to anything legally significant that develops from it, but the strategy is clearly to money her up. but she came out and described her story in a way that seems the truth, it's sympathetic, true, and really gritty. i just wonder if this might be what this next phase is, witnesses whose attorneys aren't being paid for by the trump org. >> yeah, i mean, i do think -- i guess because we have done so many trials. this is what happens and this is -- this is a case with the insiders and the people sort of in trump world are flawed. these are not -- these are humans. and -- >> associated with trump.

>> yeah. could the jury end up saying, i think she has credibility issues, i don't think she's told the story the same way, consistently in certain details, do i think she was motivated by money when she said she wasn't. you know what, they could say all of that and at the end of the day and think, you know what, the basic story is still true. and donald trump -- the key issue is and donald trump wouldn't want it out there. and you know what, hope hicks testified to that. hope hicks said i had a conversation with donald trump where he said, essentially, paraphrasing, thank god that michael cohen paid the money and, thank god it came out after the election not before. he didn't say to hope hicks, what are you talking about? i don't know anything about this. i don't know anything about hush money payments or i can't believe he paid that over my objections. nothing like that. so, you know, this is one where i think it may be a lot of theater, but at the end of the day, when we hear the

summations, the defense is going to be wanting to say, look over here but i'm not sure it really plays out. as we were talking about, in many i ways, the morning witness, before stormy daniels, it's almost more important. >> talk about this morning's witness. >> there's not going to be a lot of direct proof about donald trump, what exactly happened when he signed the checks and what he saw in the invoices. there's tons of circumstantial proof. you'll hear lots of argument on it. but one of the smart things that the prosecution did today is they had someone essentially from a publisher house that publishes his book read from donald trump's own words. and basically it's all the things we know. he's a micromanager, but micromanager particularly when it comes to money. >> but what i love is how they build to this witness. so, was he involved?

yes. did he read what you wrote? yes. was there anything in the book you didn't know about? what did he say about money? he was in charge of all of it. >> particularly, don't have somebody else sign checks for you. >> because prices go down if they see it's not your signature and computer generated. >> he was like, you have to watch every penny. this had to remind people of david pecker, again, that is a trump loyalist, witness number one, saying this guy is frugal and is, you know, cheap and, again to go to todd blanche's opening, misstep, why would he pay $400,000 because he's a really cheap guy? that's the point. >> but does todd blanche not know adam weisselberg not see he wrote it up for taxes? >> they did. remains to be seen how they're going to deal with that. i mean, they -- at the time mary

and i were saying, this is a misstep. you do not -- this is classic trial, you know, teaching, which is do not promise the jury something in opening when you don't know if you can deliver it because the other side is going to jump all over that. >> it strikes me that stormy came where she came because the conspiracy is detailed by someone who likes trump very much, david pecker. and then the stories and the women who were telling them is detailed by the lawyer who represents them, keith davidson. hope hicks comes in and just sort of blows out of the water the whole political motivation. i think that you'll hear again from her the relief that it came out in '18 and not before election day in '16. she comes and tells this whole sorted story of the sex she had with donald trump and the peaks and valleys of her life after that incident. but there's something about how in his orbit she remains that

makes it curious to me that they're trying to destroy her right now. he invites her to the vodka party. he introduces her to karen, who he has no idea who is karen mcdougal, who she claimed loved him. she remains in his orbit. i mean, what is the sort of calculation in trying to destroy someone who trump kept so close as to continue to sort of dangle professional opportunities in front of? >> i think he still thought he could have an affair with her. that's what he wanted at the time. and in each of these moments where she's going to events, she's bringing other people with her. when she meets him at trump tower, she brings her assistant. she's never alone with him. even when having phone calls, she would put him on speaker. you have the crews of her movies hearing all of these conversations and him call her honey bunch. again, going back to andrew's point about receipts, there are

receipts. there are people who knew about this, knew they had contact. so when they put up during the direct examination one of his -- i think his truths where he says, i met her 18 years ago and i haven't ever talked to her since. it's plainly a lie. if they put in the phone records to show their communications, they would be very clearly a lie. they were clearly in contact. if you're trying to figure out who to believe, she will be more credible because she will be corroborated. >> if you're the prosecution, do you need mcdougal? >> i don't think you do because really the payment that's at the source of what's charged is stormy daniels. so, i had heard rumblings they were not going to call karen mcdougal and i don't think they need to. one thing they've gotten from stormy and every witness is this idea it was about the campaign. stormy daniels said, i was so worried that he wasn't going to make the payment when he missed october 14, 2016, because we're getting close to the election and then he's never going to pay me. then he's not going to care.

even after the election, like you said, hope hicks gives that great testimony about after the election, donald trump admits this would have been so damaging. that's also corroborated by david pecker, when he says after the election, donald trump thanked me. we had a meeting and he thanked me. this would have been the karen mcdougal and dino the doorman, those payments, if that had gone out, that would have been damaging to the campaign. you see the corroboration of every single witness so far that has had interaction with donald trump directly or indirectly understood this was about the campaign. >> i think of you, tom cruise depiction of the book "the firm," he walks in the office. do you still have a physical reaction to the fact it was all a scheme, it was all to elect donald trump? >> i mean, you know, a lot of this i learned post my tenure. what i'm just dealing with in real time is, you know, a safe my foot rest and dino the doorman contract is in there and i'm helping "the wall street journal" and deadline get the

mcdougal story out there and use the catch and cover. i'm looking at stormy and hearing her story and thinking, if we had run this, if we would have put it on the cover, that would have been a knockout blow on the back of the "access hollywood" tape. this was gold -- >> do you know who -- >> right off the back of the "access hollywood" tape where the campaign is frantically scrambling, particularly about female voters, and you have this story that we just heard today, i think it would have had an impact, a definite impact. >> vaughn, what do you think? you were in the room with mike pence, can you imagine the pences sticking around after the stormy daniels story had come around after "access hollywood"? >> reporter: that's a really good question. i sometimes try to go back. let's say i got a tip in october of 2016 about stormy daniels and her story was out there. what is the first line of questioning? you talk to the source. let's say you get the chance to talk to stormy daniels. let's say she actually chronicled her story in the detailed way she ultimately did

in 2018 when she broke the nda and spoke with "60 minutes." let's say we had the chance to have that conversation in october of 2016. what do you do after that? you go to the other party in this. you have the body guard, you look to get him to comment, which he has not publicly talked about the extent to her allegations that he was the one that met her at the door with the door open. that they were the ones texting back and forth the day to set up the meeting at that hotel in 2006. and then you go to donald trump. and donald trump has just kind of issued a blanket denial about everything outside of the fact that he took a picture with her at the golf tournament. they even showed today and brought into evidence for the jury that two weeks before he was indicted last year on his social media account, he said, quote, i did nothing wrong in the horse face case. i haven't even seen or spoken to her since i took a picture with her on a golf course. she clearly outlined a litany of other meetings the two had, including the one the next night at a hotel in january of 2017

with karen mcdougal, a meeting at trump tower which the executive assistant has already testified she recalled seeing her at trump tower as well. so, donald trump, you know, if we look at this from a political lens and reporting this in october of 2016, we would have to tell the american public that, look, there is a body of evidence and a body of testimony and others who saw stormy daniels and donald trump together in his blanket denial just doesn't match up with what this other party, the other individual, stormy daniels, is laying out in very clear terms. >> the time machine is at the heart of this. and i think the prosecution made that point in its opening argument. we'll never know, but you look at how a jury dealt with the e. jean carroll account, they found him liable for defamation and sexual assault. we have no idea what this jury will do. they are the only people that will determine if trump is

guilty beyond any and all doubts. it is information that, regardless of the disposition of these two cases, the voters did not have. it's information that was suppressed through media partners, through intimidation. i want to ask you one more question, vaughn, about trump's treatment of women, which is now -- his right to a robust defense, it's manifested itself in a cross-examination that has people really riveted, i think, by the nasty nature of it. is there any political risk to the pattern repeating itself once again, dirtying up a woman who he invited to have sex with him? >> we saw him lose significant women support not only in 2016, which he was able to overcome, but also in the 2020 election. and we have seen that persist with candidates that have aligned with donald trump. in no way does this endear him not only just to women but also men who have concerns about the

well-being of women and want to ensure that women are not sexually harassed as now dozens of individuals have alleged against donald trump. you said it just earlier this year, a couple months ago, he was found to have defamed e. jean carroll here. in no way have we seen any evidence that the defamation suit from e. jean carroll and the fact he was sexual abused and liable for that, or these allegations have ever helped him politically. the only thing i can tell you to that, in no way has there been any point in which the allegations levied against him have politically helped him and we're now less than six months until the 2024 election and stormy daniels under oath is presenting damning testimony against him in very vivid, graphic details. and his wife, the former first lady is not here or publicly out there to defend him from these allegations. >> she is not. and we keep saying this, too, this is the only set of charges, criminal charges he faces that he doesn't talk about on the campaign trail. he runs on presidential records,

was allowed to steal that war man that milley wrote. he runs on insurrection at every event. he plays the breaking out of jail, whatever it is, of the insurrectionists. these are not facts that come up for him. no one is coming away. tbd, open question whether trump decides to testify in his own defense. today jurors heard passages from his book. trump basically testifying against himself without saying a word. we'll show you what that looked like. and rachel maddow joins us at the top of the hour. don't go anywhere.

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♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. so, as andrew mentioned, before stormy daniels ever took the stand, we heard from trump today in his own words. prosecutors called sally franklin to the stand. she's a publisher from penguin random house to interview evidence books written by the ex-president. yes, he wrote books. those excerpts revealed trump as a micromanager and a proud one at that. quote, always look at the numbers yourself. you're the one left holding the checkbook. no detail is too small to consider. i even tried to sign as many checks as possible for me. there's nothing worse than a computer signing checks, end quote. and in a chapter of one of the books called "how to pinch pennies," this is real, they added into the record that trump, quote, wrote, quote, as i said before, i always sign my

checks so i know where my money is going. i also always read my bills so i know what i'm being charged. we're back at the table. i'm with vaughn hillyard. so, we were talking in the break. we sometimes have our best conversations in the break. not really. we save it all for the show. about how there was -- there is also an element of just how badly they did this. these weren't good criminals. michael cohen tells david pecker, go to the u.p.s. store and download signals. they were bad at the criminal element of the hush money scheme. >> the defense has to argue the following. when donald trump is signing those checks month after month, and there's the invoice there that he did not look at the invoice and he just signed the checks without caring at all -- >> for the first time. >> yeah. >> exactly. just was going ahead and paying for what legal fees that were not legal fees and paying twice

as much than he should have been paying, even though, by the way, he has said he paid for reimbursements so he wouldn't be -- it doesn't make any sense. and what possible motive would allen have or michael have to lie to him? in other words, they would be fired for that. what would be the reason? he is now the president of the united states. there would be zero reason. and we know that, in fact, donald trump learns of the, if you didn't know at the time, we know he learned from hope hicks that he knew after the fact. and he did not have a reaction of, i cannot believe you did this. so, i mean, this is -- that is sort of a mini version of what you are going to hear in summation. and there's no way, if you just think about if you were trying to pull the wool over donald trump's eyes and you have this whole scheme, remember to pull it off, you have to count on the fact that donald trump will not

ask any questions about those checks. >> donald trump picks his own playlist at his rallies. >> yes. >> donald trump wants to leave nato because they don't, quote, pay their bills. i don't think there's a lot of evidence that he reads much, but political polls he reads. and the bills, we know not from me, from him. he reads all of them. signs all of his own expenses. >> and you got that from the testimony from both jeff mcconnie and debora terasov. she was in accounts payable. she said, he didn't just blindly sign checks. there were checks that got sent back and he had a question and he would void them. he was the ultimate person that what approve any expense. if it over $10,000 it had to be >> and then you have just giving examples where there was

an exchange where he said you are fired, jeff. you actually have to negotiate my bills. do not just pay them, always negotiate them down. all this is consistent from what we heard today from those books of the fact that you are pinching pennies, you have to be the one who knows your finances. do not delegate that to other people. make sure that you are the one who knows what is going on. it really painted a vivid picture in his own words and then the defense cross was there is a ghost writer. you cannot attribute that to trump. the ghostwriter was one of his executive assistance who said i'm there and basically was the eyes and ears. i was in the office right outside. i recanted things that i saw and heard. that was part of what had come out during that period this idea that he has no idea what was in the book, it was somebody very close to him who, if she was adding things, he

would've been aware and again, a lot of it was personal anecdotes of his. conversations he had with his father learning about finance, people he worked with that only he would've been privy to. the cross was really not able to say that these words could be attributed to donald trump. they were attributed to donald trump. >> also really enjoyed when they put the covers of those books out, he was talking to counsel. >> >> the other thing that is interesting to me is there was so much concern to describe the sexual act below the belt. there was no concern about what happened after the access hollywood tape came out. >> he is in trouble criminally because of the campaign. nobody cares about her description. >> i think again, back to that timeline, why was the story so important to be brought up the market? why was there such activity

going on? >> the campaign is. they need to get the story off the market. this cover-up. doesn't want to be the bank. it is up to michael going to do it and here we are with the falsification of those records. the paper trail is extraordinary. >> messaging. you got an extraordinary amount of. look at the evidence. it is absolutely fascinating. >> i guess that's where that leaves us at the end of the day. stormy daniels is expected to be back not tomorrow but thursday for more of her cross- examination and read a lack redirect from the prosecutors. above all of the objections and everything that i read is it was boisterous and the courtroom has any date -- not a

lot of objections about anything that was stipulated after the access hollywood tape comes out until the election. nothing was disputed in terms of the evidence that is mostly document evidence, papers, emails, contracts. all of that seems to be beyond debate. >> exactly. this is evidence that is being forwarded and the judge even remarked, i should say, remarked during the lunch break that they were surprised that there were not more objections brought forward by donald trump's defense team. there were several occasions where he expected objections to be brought forward because he has abstained several of them. the defense for donald trump made the case that so much of this is irrelevant to the actual charges that are brought against him. with a focus should be on the actual payment and the effort to conceal it as legal expenses, paperwork. i think that it is notable when

we are talking about just exactly what the jury heard today, there was another passage that came from think like a billionaire. donald trump wrote here is something else that any billionaire nose. he is into details. you need to be there too. i could not run a business any other way. if people see your signature at the bottom of the check, they know that you are watching it. you got to remember that this is a jury who is hearing the testimony today. blaming your ghostwriters as an example over the last 48 hours, most of the public usually tends to believe the words and the name under the author title and not whether it is the ghostwriter who is responsible for them but the men, himself who wrote the words and have the title of the name under his butt. >> especially, he said he was in charge of everything. we've now got not just what he writes and he can say oh, the ghostwriter. what he said about how he runs his company. everybody knew this. there was an element to the

january 6 public hearing where it was wallpaper. it was the campaign manager and then the data guy, the daughter, and then aid. who told him he lost ? i did. there is now a layering of what happened after access hollywood. what happened? there is now a real layering of witness after witness saying the same thing about the time period in question. >> that is for loyalty in the year of 2024 becoming so pertinent because he knows who is running operations, whether it be in the business, whether it be on the campaign side of this. look at how many campaign managers of the course of nine years he went through. the company secretaries he went through the communications directors in the four years of the white house. there is questions of whether mike pence would last on as vice president of the united states for the full four years.

these were conversations when you are talking about donald trump with micromanaging and the extent to it, we were watching it play out in real time with who he has on his campaign team. it is those most loyal to him, those who he has full faith and confidence in. that is why you saw that he ran the trump organization. even the folks who remain loyal to him today had to come in and testify against him but it just showed the extent in which donald trump has an understanding of everything that is being executed on his behalf. >> that is fascinating. vaughn hillyard, thank you so much. thank you so much for being here. much more news to come on this extraordinary, remarkable, historic day. the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. my friend and colleague joins us in three minutes. do not go anywhere. anywhere.

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was at hush money to stay silent? >> yes. the story was coming out again. i was concerned for my family and their safety. >> i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you fear for your safety you're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i did not even negotiate, i just said yes to this very strict

contract and what most people will agree with me, extremely low number is all the proof i need. >> hi, everybody. my colleague is going to join us in just a couple minutes. we begin with today's extraordinary developments. down in a courthouse in lower manhattan, the one trump has tried so hard to suppress was on full display. his alleged 2006 sexual encounter with adult film star stormy daniels and the ensuing payment to her to keep it what happened between them silent is described in great, some would argue, excruciating details on the stand. court ended for the day in the last hour and talked full of detailed testimony from daniel's. we expect the defense cross- examination of her which was pretty intense to pick up again on thursday. >> stormy daniels telling the

story the 2006 meeting with a whole lot of descriptions and details along with her many other interactions with the ex- president. she also described how she came to be paid hush money just days before voters went to the polls in 2016 but after the release of the access hollywood tape. today marks a significant moment in the criminal trial of the ex-president. it is the 130,000 dollar payment to stormy daniels and a cover-up of that hush-money payments that resulted in any of these charges that were being brought. >> the trial of a ex-american president. we learned from stormie's lawyer reached when he testified was a crescendo after that access hollywood tape dropped. we learned from david becker who had buried stories for trump in the past that stormie's story, he says i am not paying out any further disbursements among us. leading to the payment from trumps former loyal lawyer,

stormy daniels says didn't do for the financial gain. echoing her what she said on 60 minutes. she wanted control of her story. prosecution asked did you have any intention of approaching mr. trump or michael cullen, his attorney, to have them pay for your story? >> daniel said no. her motivation was not money, she does wanted to get her story out publicly. her story drove the ex- president and legal team to call for a mistrial. a request that was denied by judge. this is how we start our with our dear friend and colleague, rachel maddow. i did some of the stuff that makes your ears flashed in the last hour. i want to start with you with what was objected to and what. all of the defenses objections but they were not about the stuff he is in trouble for legally. this compressed. between access hollywood and

election day and now the testimony is on the record unchallenged by trump's defense team. why? >> it is really interesting because the distance between the specific crime that is alleged and what the prosecution needs to prove in order to establish that beyond a reasonable doubt, the distance between that and what the defense seems is being described in court, i am assuming there being driven by their client. what is important to him. i am not sure that anybody really thinks that trump didn't do this. i am not sure that in any of trumps cases, that is the best defense to say that these things did not happen. i know he has denied the sexual encounter, itself, but his defense team said in their opening statements that those were really a legal retainer payment for michael boehm:.

that is, of course, what trump what it was in the sexual encounter never happened. there is a real world impact of this stuff that i think is separate with innocence or guilt. in terms of the real word impact of this overall story. i feel like his guilt in front of the jury has defined by the charges that have been brought in this case. kind of a secondary story in terms of importance to him. >> that is so clarifying. as i was following this on the google document that lets us track real-time and someone on my team is in the courtroom. this was the first day that i got twitchy, when i could not follow along in real-time. you are right. there has been a separation as a legal and political. it has now bled out to his lawyers. the notes and the admissions were about describing his body parts. those are not at the heart of falsifying business records.

no disputing that between the drop of access hollywood and hush money, i was thinking about the testimony from the banker. some of the driest testimony was bolstered by some of the most explosive testimony. when you get into motive and action. the motive is that political crisis and access hollywood. the action is this hush money scheme filtered through michael coleman. >> the defense will put on their case and we will see what they do. with all the witnesses that we have seen including the cross- examination, we've got hope hicks, no enemy of donald trump saying he expressed to her that it was way better that this all did not come out until after the election. we've got his own financial people working out in writing the way that this was going to be covered up in trump organization business records

even though what it was was a reimbursement to michael: for paying for this story. the elements, again, i am not a lawyer but the elements that they need to prove for the relatively straightforward document driven story that undergirds these charges, the story has been told and it's not hanging on any one individual witness. who is making a crucial part of it as corroborating documents or other witnesses on their side of the ledger. i feel like the defense has to decide if they're going to try to contest these things. i do not think that they have been very effective at contesting the issues. i think they have decided instead that they are going to try to protect trump in terms of the real world and political impact of this case and i do not think that that is working either. stormy daniels is testimony today to have the judge say two defense lawyers, i was

expecting you to object more than you did. to have the judge having to object himself because trump lawyers were not objecting on his behalf, we all know about the pajamas. we all heard the testimony. all of this stuff is there and his defense team has let it ring out in the courtroom. >> yeah. because you went there, i will follow you. the thing covering trump for nine years, you know that when he went on foreign trips, he would not eat because he was germophobic and i know from my own reporting when i traveled to india, he would not eat. his whole thing with covid and this whole thing. his conversation the first time with stormy daniels is about her time in the adult film industry and whether they were condoms. she talks about being tested. he wants to know how they protect themselves from stds. a jury will decide if it is not

writable. but your point about the lawyers doing double duty, serving both as his criminal defense team and political protectors, all that stuff certainly rings true to the broader narrative we've come to know about donald trump. >> yes. listen, the very big picture, nicole, we are thinking seriously as a country about putting people back in the white house who mounted violent effort overturn the government the last time he was voted out. he says part of the constitution should be terminated. wants to put the u.s. military in american cities. he wants to build camps for tens of millions of people. there is this huge yikes factor when it comes to him. part of the reason he wants to destroy the rule of law and thinks it should be terminated is because in cases like this where he is facing more than 30 of the 80 felonies he's charged with, it seems plain that the

evidence is very strongly against him. on top of the scariness about what he is offering us as a political figure, on top of his likely criminal liability in these multiple criminal trials, we also get this yuck factor stuff. >> she is doing a form company. his incident infant son is four months old. she goes to his room, there is no dinner. he is wearing satin pajamas. she says get dressed. he tells her i will get you onto my reality competition tv show and i will help you cheat at it. he gives her an advance and he says i will give you advanced notices of the challenges on the show and that will help you. he tells her me and my wife do not sleep in the same room. he asked when she was last tested. he tells her she reminds him of his daughter. she goes to the bathroom, and

he has a stripped down to his underpants. she tries to leave and he steps between her and the door and she does not want to do it. she says she does not feel threatened what he says to her i thought that you were serious about what you wanted. if you ever want to get out of that trailer park -- they have , she is not into it. he does not wear a condom and that is particularly concerning to her and she should know that it is because she has just explained to him about her work in the adult ministry. they meet several more times, he make smart sexual advances, they never have again and ultimately, it is only when he finally says no, i'm not putting you on my tv show that he she stops taking up his cause. jimmy carter almost lost in 1976 because he said he had committed lust in his heart. this is who we are thinking about putting back in the white house right now along with what he is threatening to do the country. in part, out of anger for the criminal liability that he has brought on himself by trying to cover up things like this. behavior like this, character like this. she said today i have no shame,

talking about her career choices and there is no reason that she should. she's got self-determination. she's given her supper career that she wants. we can have shame. we can have shame about our political choices as a country in terms of who we are elevating is america's face to the world. today, none of us will ever get this taste out of our mouth. >> i think that's right. i also think we made a mistake and covering him as so accidental. you did not but a lot of us. he came out of the gate. >> describing all of us as enemies of the people. why did he need his base to think that we -- we thought that that would really in danger. it was not about that. it was about us. it was about today. it was about making sure that when today came around, when the public learned that stormy daniels would testify to the that she had with donald trump

while his son was four months old, that his base would say no wait. he did not do that. if he did, what are they even say. what is that? >> the satin pajamas, i do not have any clue how that fits into the image. it makes him more -- i don't want to use the word strategic is that is not it. his primal desire to survive and thrive knowing exactly what his life had been up to the moment when he became president, drop everything. >> yes. you have to prime your followers for there is no noble truth, there are no facts. anything that you see is represented as a science, expertise, journalism, is not real. you can only believe what i tell you. the facts are what i say, the facts are. >> has done this to a certain extent in demonizing journalism for a long time. he took it to a different level in saying that unless it was praising him, it was not real.

that is setting up your followers to follow only you and to accept what you tell them and to do what you tell them. the courts that he's got to spend time in now because of these multiple criminal and civil cases are places where there are no alternative facts. there are only facts. it is an adversarial process and he's got good lawyers who are representing him vigorously but the evidence is tested and subject to law and the judgment of. there is not any way around it other than getting your followers to tune it out and to tell them that this is persecution and that nothing happens in that courtroom is real law. in order to make that case to the public, you need to make the case that the judicial system in america is bunk and rigged and just designed to persecute donald trump and his followers and that therefore, must be dismantled. >> the authoritarian project are the same project.

you can see on days like today more clearly than any other times why that is. >> and then the third leg of the stool is trumps criminal defense team. right? the authoritarian project, the assault on the rule of law and depending donald trump right now are all intertwined. i think we air and covering them in separate buckets. we will tell you what is under the 2025. we will show you how the gop is knotting their way toward authoritarianism and then we will get to what happened in court today. for him, they have always been the same project. the interviewed the new york times. complaining about sessions since the day he got there. we covered him with curiosity. that is in the dna of our job. when he was focused on impeaching our credibility along with the country so he could sail to the nomination two more times, which he did. i wonder how much he turned to us. are we still a country that can

receive fax? and i guess the last time we sat next to each other when a whole bunch of trump insiders and loyalists testified to the facts about them that it was the public hearing led by the january 6 committee. it was not meant romney workup begins. it was trump surrogates in arizona, trump surrogates in wisconsin. even you and said i was there because he told us to come and i stopped when he told us to leave. do you think that there are enough of us in this country that can still take in packs? >> the authoritarian project is to dislocate us from facts and noble truth. right? when steve bannon says you need to flood the zone with the s word, that is not because he thinks that that is a fun thing to do or reckless trolling. he is saying that you do that because it is a political tactic to get people to believe what you tell them and not what anybody else says. it is to reduce all forms of

authority to one person. that is when authoritarian rule is. that is why there cannot be checks and balances. that is why congress has to be purified so it is only trump loyalists. that is why the judiciary has to be trump loyalists or it is bunk and needs to be ignored. competing forms of authority means not only people who can tell you what to do but people who can tell you was real. you have to systematically attack that. that is a political project of the republican party as captured by donald trump. it is that political project of all of the rest of us in the country to stand up against that. it is not a war that you win just by declaring it. it is a war that has to be fought out by the rest of the country on truth, fax and popular front where we stick up for each other despite the differences we may have among each other, even as different news organizations, right? you stand up for facts against the idea of unknowable truth. this is all stuff that felt

when i studied in other countries and now we are living in. i did not know that i would have to be ready for this. >> you showcase it. as you are talking, thinking about the conversation with liz cheney. hang on, coming attractions. we will fight next time but for now, this is it. whether we say a democracy or not. i know joe biden sees the world this way, sees the fight this way. i look forward to a time when that is really sharpened. to his own coalition, i love that you are in the street fighting for what you believe even when you disagree with me. if you want to continue to have the right to do that and be protected while you do it, there is only one choice on the ballot. to the republicans, if you want to have a fight with me about taxes, trump is not going to fight with you about taxes. if you disagree with and, he said he's going to prosecute. >> i look forward to a time and i know that it's early and we are the only one to stay up but

i look forward to a time when the political conversation -- and it's so extraordinary that trump says it out loud too. when you are saying what i'm saying, these are not things for learning investigative pieces that break in obscure places. these are things that he says at rallies. it is all out in the open. >> maybe things like this breakthrough. maybe people who are imagining the mega feature with a purified america and the end of politics and my site i was just getting what they want and that is all following the leader. people who think that might be a good future for america? maybe that image runs up against the guy with the sunburn in the satin pajamas trying to talk this woman into bed with him who does not want to go to bed with him by telling him i will get you on my tv show and i will help you cheat. i can get you out of the trailer park, baby. and he's not going to wear a condom. maybe this image that we learned about today interferes a little bit with the image

that they would like to think of him. maybe not but the truth matters and days like this, the truth comes out. >> i know you have to go. he cheated on his own show. for all the people who liked him because of the apprentice, it was all a lie too. he was telling stormy if you are on, i will help you win, i will help you cheat. rachel, it's such a treat when we get to talk to you. and you will be back. we look at you then as well. thank you so much, my friend. >> thank you. >> when we come back, we will have much more on today's traumatic testimony from stormy daniels. we will talk about where the trial goes from here. plus, how the trial in the bigger picture were talking about. not just of his legal woes but his human frailties. how that plays out of the campaign trial with republican endorsing joe biden, calling trump a terminal defendant without a moral compass. the white house for a quick

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it's a $130,000 in-kind contribution michael coll into the trump campaign which is about 126,500 above what he is allowed to give. if he does this on behalf of his client, the candidate, that is a coordinated, illegal contribution by: for the purpose of influencing the election, benefiting the candidate by keeping this secret. >> during our conversation,

political legal reporter is outside the courthouse. plus, former senator claire is here with me at the table once again. former deputy assistant is here. it is easy to really focus on details of the interactions with stormy daniels and trump. on the legal question at hand, zero objections from trump's lawyers, zero disputing what she lays out from. >> all true. i thought that you had both sides being uncharacteristically not so great year. on the trump side, they did not object and then they got overaggressive in her cross. at the same time, though, the d.a. stepped in and engendered in front of the jury, asking too many details. the aptly went back in the

middle of a break and prepped her to say less. that was important. >> wouldn't the prosecution need from her today? >> it's interesting. on the one hand, they need nothing because there is nothing specifically about the hush money charge or any of the falsifications of the record that they really need her for even if it had not happened. on the other hand, it seems to me if the jury basically does not believe her and they were going after her with their teeth and the cross examination, it is a big problem for the prosecution even though, technically, it does not mean that the crime hasn't completely, nevertheless, you want to believe that this happened. you also want to believe why she was quiet about it a while before coming forward, i think. >> what is interesting to me is that all of the warnings from

trump's legals teams were details about the actual that would describe on the stand. he is in trouble. he is facing criminal charges. some of them, the potential for jail time because of the illegal hush money scheme. on that, do you believe every word that she said or not? if you believe the worst of her, she tried it shopper story around and nobody bought it. she got $130,000. full stop. that is a fact that is in the record. it is on paper, emails and stipulated to but everyone from michael cohen, david becker. the money, no one has testified to trump's generosity of spirit or finances. when you deal with the actual issues alleged to be crimes,

how did you think that she did? >> it is not unusual. i think that will back me up on this. it is not unusual for witnesses who are nervous to do what we call talking beyond the question. especially on direct exam. i was not there, i did not observe her testifying but it did appear from following the coverage of the trial that she was talking beyond the question. when she did, she was getting into details that made the judge and verbal and that is never good. the fact that the defense did not object probably has more to do with whether or not she was hurting them or helping them. they must've thought that the way that she was testifying was helping them. all of that set aside, the bottom line is did trump no that they were covering up this payment with false business records? that is really the case.

i think this was a dangerous witness to put on for both sides. one of the reasons i wanted to mention, i think the prosecution is not put her on to lay the groundwork if trump were to take the stand. just imagine the cross examination that would occur. if they had not put her on, it would've been easier for her to take the stand and deny none of this ever happened. for being there and testifying about it puts them in a box. as you can ago up there and lie that he was never in that hotel you room with her and he never saw her in trump tower? >> that makes it very difficult for him to take the stand. >> i have lost the plot on what exactly trump denies. there is this photo from the celebrity golf tournament but she testified today to being summoned in l.a.. her name and number being in

the role that she had for donald trump, his assistant of decade and decade. testified to mcdougal and being in trump tower one other time to which testified to. what is the trump story about stormy daniels? what does he say he did and did not do? >> i think it is unclear at this point but his lawyers have said this entire sexual interaction happened. i think to the prosecutor it was benefit today. she laid out this long story in detail about, number one, the interaction that happened in 2006 but also, subsequent meetings, as you mentioned, in trump tower, in los angeles. and incorporating evidence of having trump's bodyguards number in her phone and then as you said previously, former trump assistance have testified that she was in the trump

organization. she provided not just detail of this interaction as of at the center of the case of the story but also far more details about other meetings. >> quickly. we know his story. he actually says in his book. i only have the one picture with her. that is the only time we ever met. after that, will be clear because >> other than a charge with lying too? why does he say i would buy it but i'm out of money. the problem with coming after her in front of the jury, they are not hearing from her first. when it came to stormy, he was all in with suppressing and he was just not going to be -- he says i am not a bank. he described a crescendo of interest in her story after the access. how do you impugn her and then go down the line? what you alleged that she got everyone to buy for her? >> it's not easy.

there are some things that will possibly hold up. but they will try to say, you don't do this in the states, actually. what said repeatedly, you just made that up from the start and that kind of broke the rhythm. it was actually for that reason, you want a cross to be crisp. every single question she agrees with and in fact, many times she didn't. it's going to be a very hard play but what they will try to say is the whole thing was made up. even us to the point, we have trump having several meetings with her. i do not think that that is going to fly. nevertheless, i think the jury's reaction to her on a personal level is going to matter. >> any reporting on trump's early-morning social media post that was quickly taken down and his body language inside the courtroom today?

>> we asked him in the hallway today why he took down his post and he did not respond to the questions. we have asked him repeatedly yesterday about why he wants to violate the gag order. if you responded to them, that would violate the gag order and he has not responded to those. in the courtroom today, he did his usual thing where he closes his eyes and appears to drift off but he also appeared very angry at times especially when stormy daniels was testifying about their interaction in the hotel room. he shook his head at one point when she mentioned his wife and he appeared to mouth an expletive when she described spanking him with his magazine. >> yes. that was just amazing to read in black and white. ben and harry, thank you so much for being here. thank you for being there and coming with us to talk about

it. claire sticks around and is counting her blessings that she did not have to say what ben just said about trump getting spanked with a magazine. we will have much more legal analysis of today's testimony. there is a special edition of the newsletter out right now. scan the qr code on your screen to sign up and have it delivered right to you. up next for us, how the trumpet election interference is reminding voters of many of the things they found achy about donald trump, including his for women and his never ending mountain of gross legal problems. that is next. worry... ♪ to a child, this is what conflict looks like.

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>> it should remain top of mind on days like today that while we describe him as a disgraced, which is all true, donald trump is also a candidate for office, for president. he is the republican nominee like right now. despite the fact that his actions in this case alone, some of them too gross to repeat on the air are beyond the parameters of any historically accepted behavior for candidate for president. the good news, if there is any, is may be some republicans see this for what it is. an opportunity to act on what so many of them say about trump in private. in published in the

constitution, at least one person did just that. georgia lieutenant governor jeff duncan urged conservative republicans to back president joe biden. a decent person i disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass. the headlines are blazed with this hush money trial over allegations of improper record keeping for payments to conceal and an affair with an adult film star. trump found the flames of conspiracy theories that lead to on january 620 21. he refuses to admit that he lost the last election and has hinted he might do so again after the next one. executive director of republican voters against trump and publisher of his back with us. sarah, i feel like with everything that you are all doing publicly, there is so much below the surface that is shifting in our politics and you. anecdotally everywhere. you hear about trump voters who are. you hear about trump voters who were disgusted, reliving all the access hollywood tape.

i just wonder what you are seeing in the data. >> as we talk about on the show a lot, i do focus groups every week, often times with republican voters. one of the things that this trial in particular, and i am sure that as you guys have discussed, for many of us, this was not the optimal trial to go first. for a lot of us, we would've liked to have seen the january 6 the trial where the documents case. something that felt more serious but actually, this case has been interesting because as we relive the details, it really does remind people just how gross donald trump is about women and i think when you have a policy environment like you do now where roe v. wade is so top of mind. suburban women are going to be one of the dominant constituents in this upcoming election, does the stormy

daniels stuff go to the heart of not even all the things that we know about donald trump but some of the things that were fundamental that become baked in and you forget about them. when you are reminded, you say that this person is completely unfit as a matter of character. there are 1 million actions that have made him unfit as well but as a matter of character, which as conservatives, something that we used to say was deeply important to us. what i loved about this jeff duncan piece is that he focuses on the fact that donald trump's character is unacceptable and should be unacceptable specifically to conservatives. and then he does something that i think is so important and that not enough people i've done. he condemns trump's character and then goes on to endorse joe biden because joe biden is of decent character. this is something that while mike pence, and this is extraordinary that mike pence is not going to endorse donald trump, the president that he served. somebody like mitt romney, he is not endorsing donald trump. many of trumps cabinet mentors will endorse donald trump but a

lot of them have not gone as far as to say and because of that, you must vote for joe biden. that is what jeff duncan did and i really appreciated that because that is going to be really important. you hear a lot of this in the focus groups from people who are like i cannot do it with trump again. but does push them into leaving it blank and you got to get these folks to a place where they say if trump is a threat to democracy, i will vote for the one person standing in his way to being in the white house again. that is a credible thing. >> it is if this then why? if he is a threat to democracy which is the position they're there. was like a fat cat reeling in the praise from corners where he had been banished from after his tenure for donald trump. and then he came out and said i'm going to vote for him again. it renders everything he said

to the january 6 meeting. there is an intellectual dishonesty to these guys who have reveled in being laundered of their and come out that they said they won't do anything to stop him. what do you do about that? >> it is morally obtuse. the bill barr and some of the other folks who have been deeply committed to condemning donald trump, who saw him up close, saw him do things within they made the media rounds to talk about how so much of that behavior was disqualifying, called donald trump names. all of which is fair. it was true. they saw things in the white house. bill barr had a front row seat for donald trump trying to overturn the election. it speaks to not even trump's character, it speaks to bill's character that he, after seeing donald trump be willing to overturn an election, somebody who calls himself a conservative is willing to endorse donald trump again. what he is saying to us is that he does not care about the

constitution, the peaceful transfer of power. he does not care about the things that conservatives are committed to. he is willing to put all of those aside for partisan, tribal purposes just so he can be invited to whatever republican events he wants to get invited to in the future. i think that it is shameful and i hope that people like jeff duncan make bill feel ashamed. >> wow. we have to sneak and break and then we will bring claire in on the other side. stay with us. us.

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everything sarah is saying and i do not know if she hears this a lot, i do not know of donald trump disagrees with the politics at this money which is why it is paid. political crisis for his candidacy in 2016. >> i wonder if he feels that way now. look at what he has gotten away with. i think he was suffering, at that moment, of actually believing that the normal rules would apply to him and now you have a lot of elected officials that are highly intelligent and highly educated that had just looked the other way year after year after year of incredible misbehavior by this man. a total lack of moral clarity and integrity by this guy. the lies spring out of his

mouth. every other paragraph is a lie. i think that it takes courage for all of these cabinet members and a few of the senators to say that they're not going to endorse donald trump. it takes a little bit what takes a lot more is to say that no one should vote for him and they should vote for the other guy because he does have character. at the end of the day, if we don't have a leader in the united states that you can believe will actually tell the truth and will actually have some kind of moral clarity about what is right and wrong, what is the point? especially the republicans who have retired. sarah knows there is a bunch of them that are saying things ab donald trump behind his back. i mean i could list you a bunch that i have talked to that say terrible things about donald trump behind his back. they're not running again. they're not running for anything. where are they? why aren't they speaking up?

i for the life of me don't understand it. >> they're not speaking up in the context of the reminded me of a woman like ivanka, she too is blonde and intelligent. again believe or don't believe it's a pattern of him sexualizing his own daughter. why don't what they say it publicly? >> because there's a party that has bought his nonsense. they are no longer about taxes, they are no longer about free trade, they're no longer about making sure our military is the strongest in the world and fighting for freedom across the globe. they are just about grievance, cultural grievance, that somebody is getting something that i'm not getting, and frankly this is the guy who gets

it. and you know what's really hysterical, he can't stand them. he can't stand his followers. they are not who he looks up to. they are not who has haunted him because he didn't get acceptance by people that are coming to his rallies. he is haunted by the fact he can't get acceptance from the highly educated and highly successful class of folks in new york and beyond. >> that's so true. it's so complicated. thank so much for making sense of it and spending time with us on this truly remarkable day. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. t-mobile “savings”, take one. guys, focus. here's the line... “at t-mobile, you get tons of benefits, and you can still save versus the other guys.” focus!

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thank you. this hatred of jews didn't begin with the holocaust, didn't end with the holocaust, either. this hatred continues to lie deep in the hearts of too many people in the world and requires more continued vigilance and outspokenness. >> president joe biden today denouncing a, quote, furoque s scourge of anti-semitism. it was at an event on capitol hill earlier. in his keynote address at the new york holocaust museum's annual remembrance ceremony at the u.s. capitol, the president pointed to the role of the october 7th terrorist attack by hamas in stoking anti-semitism here at home. the president telling the american jewish community here today this, quote, i see your

fear, your hurt, and your pain. let me reassure you as your president, you are not alone. you belong. you always have and you always will. as part of his efforts to combat anti-semitism, the biden administration is issuing guidance from the department of education's office for civil rights on how to combat anti-semitism on college campuses. we'll stay on that. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. n that a quick break for us we'll be right back. -yeah. well, with your home, auto, boat and rv all bundled with progressive you've got the peace of mind to really wander. yeah. yeah, i just hope it stays this way. once word gets out about these places they tend to -- -are you done? -aaand there it is. well, at least your vehicles are protected. let's hit the road. hey fam! i'm just at this beautiful lake that i just discovered. practicing gratitude, manifesting abundance. today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back...

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what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these wild times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. thanks so much.