independent swing voters who simply don't want to reward that sort of tumult. you know, are we going to hear a little more from the president today? going forward, how does he strike that balance? >> it is a tough one. you have young voters, muslim-american voters who are frustrated with the president's continued support for israel. then you have the suburban middle class voters who are sending their kids to college for $200,000 a year and saying, you know, i won't even see my kid graduate. >> right. >> i think this is a real tension and a real tight rope the white house is trying to walk right now. >> certainly a cease-fire deal would help. this is a long way to go on all of that. we, of course, will keep you posted. white house correspondent for "bloomberg," justin sink, thank you for joining us. thanks for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. a jam-packed "morning joe" starts right now. kristi noem is not letting up on this. not only is she willing to shoot her dog and goat, now, she wants to shoot other dogs, too. >> south dakota governor kristi

noem is not backing down, defending her decision to shoot her own dog. now implying president joe biden's dog, commander, which no longer lifts in the white house after several biting incidents, should be put down. she reportedly writes the first thing she'd do if she got to the white house is make sure joe biden's dog was nowhere on the grounds. commander, say hello to cricket. >> dear lord, this woman has a taste for dog blood. it's like she thought all dogs go to heaven was a personal challenge. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." she can't seem to kick it. she dries to blame it on us, but she wrote it, willie. it is tuesday, may 7th. we have a lot to get to this morning. we'll go through yesterday's key moments in donald trump's criminal trial, including the judge's warning about potential jail time for the former president. also ahead, georgia's former lieutenant governor, a lifelong republican, says he will vote

for president biden. we'll read from his op-ed, calling on other republicans to do the same. and we'll get the latest from capitol hill on the threat to mike johnson's speakership. along with joe, willie, and me, we have columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. he's out today with his new thriller entitled "phantom orbit." and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and his book, "the big lie, election chaos, political opportunism, and the state of american politics after 2020," is out today in paperback. >> it is book week. >> it is book week. it is amazing. timely. we begin with the israel defense forces announcing they've taken operational control of the gaza side of the rafah crossing. the military released this video overnight of troops entering the area and beginning a, quote, precise counterterrorism operation.

israeli officials say they seized the crossing after receiving intelligence it was being used for terrorist purposes. no evidence to support that claim was provided. the idf also conducted air strikes that targeted suspected hamas positions in rafah. the move comes just one day after israel ordered about 100,000 civilians to immediately evacuate parts of the southern gaza city. officials say they will operate with extreme force in those areas. willie. >> shortly after israel ordered civilians to evacuate rafah, hamas announced it would accept its interpretation of a cease-fire proposal. its interpretation is the operative part. hours later, israeli prime minister netanyahu released a statement saying the proposal hamas agreed to does not meet israel's demands. nbc news obtained a copy of the draft. the first phase calls for a 42-day cease-fire, as well as the release of 33 hostages.

in exchange for a much larger number of palestinian prisoners. in the second phase, there would be the enactment of a, quote, sustainable calm. two officials familiar with the revised proposal tell "the new york times" there were minor wording changes that were signed off by the u.s. and israel. that includes the phase "sustainable calm," but sources tell "the times" hamas viewed that term as an end to the war, which israel is expected to push back on, of course. negotiations are set to resume today in cairo. cia director bill burns is expected to take part in those. joining us now live from jerusalem is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, we can talk about the cease-fire in a moment, that agreement and the dueling interpretations of it. first, rafah, what is happening in southern gaza this morning? >> reporter: so israeli troops overnight took over the

palestinian side of the rafah border crossing. that gives israel effective control of this key entry point into gaza. it also gives them a foothold into the city. israeli officials say that this is not the start of the widely anticipated, big rafah offensive, something that president biden has opposed. they say that this is a tactical move. but it's also something that strengthens their hand as they go back into negotiations. so they're holding part of rafah. they did leaflet the area. our crew in rafah started documenting the israeli bombing campaign really just hours after the leaflets were dropped, so they didn't give very much time for people to evacuate the area. we talked yesterday how they were using text messages and leaflets to tell people to get out of this part of rafah, but within hours, they were bombing. according to medical officials, in overnight attacks, including

the incursion into the palestinian side of the rafah border crossing, at least 20 people were killed, including children. >> obviously, a perilous mission and furthering, perhaps, the humanitarian crisis there. richard, let's talk about this cease-fire and help us understand what we're looking at here. you have one brokered by egypt and qatar. hamas says, yes, we agree to the terms of the cease-fire. israel say, wait a minute, that's not the cease-fire we agreed to. what are we talking about here? >> reporter: so, it is quite complex, but i think you have to understand this as a negotiating process. there was quite a bit of progress over the last week or so. israel, backed by the united states, put forward a document. it was presented to hamas. it was presented to the egyptians and the qatari negotiators. you'll remember secretary of state blinken praised that offer, saying it was very generous. hamas took it, said they were

reading it positively, but then the israeli government, prime minister netanyahu, didn't send a negotiator to follow up on the conversation, didn't send anyone to attend the final talks, because, from israel's point of view, the document was done. it was as good as it was going to get. even secretary of state blinken said it was very generous. so why go to the meeting? showing up at a meeting, like in any negotiation, implies that you're going to have to negotiate a little bit more. israel didn't go. hamas and the negotiators working off that document that was there, without the presence of the israeli delegation, said, yes, we agree to the terms. here it is. but the terms that they presented were not exactly the same terms that israel had presented. now, israel says, fine, we will go back. they're sending a, quote, working-level delegation to cairo today to see if they can

find some common ground based on this -- on these two interpretations of the document that was sent. what it does do is it puts quite a bit of pressure on israeli prime minister netanyahu. in this document, hamas openly says, we are willing to release all of the hostages. all of the women in phase one. three phases, each 42 days. we're willing to release all of the rest of the hostages in phase two. so the israeli hostage families are hearing that. opponents of prime minister netanyahu are accusing him of not taking the hostage release seriously, are hearing that. it'll be very difficult at this stage for the israeli government, prime minister netanyahu, in particular, to walk away from this deal entirely without at least sending in a negotiating team. members of his right-wing coalition praised him for not sending a negotiating team. so we're seeing this process play out, and hamas sort of

outed the israelis by coming public yesterday with its own agreement, saying, don't paint us as the people who are rejecting everything. we're willing to negotiate. we're willing to release the hostages. you just need to show up and finish this deal. >> nbc's richard engel explaining a complicated situation well to us. live in jerusalem, richard, we appreciate it. joe and mika, also reporting that israel wanted 40 hostages back in the deal. hamas was offering 18. they landed on 33, but hamas says it may include the remains of hostages who died. israel said, no, no, that's not what we're talking about here. we're still a long way from anything that can be considered workable at this point. >> yeah. david ignatius, get us up to date based on your reporting about where we are. obviously, the hostage negotiations go on.

this is a step, obviously a positive step, as far as the families of the hostages are concerned, the promise of ultimately releasing all of the hostages at the same time. as we've said here, the prospect of hamas staying in power indefinitely in gaza just not a possibility for the overwhelming majority of israelis. where do the negotiations go from here? >> joe, my sense is that, like so many negotiations in the middle east, as this one gets closer to achieving its goal of a final deal, differences between the sides, recourse to fighting, as israel's attacks on parts of rafah over the last 24 hours become part of the negotiating process. i'm struck by the absolute commitment that president biden has shown to getting this deal done. he has kept working at it.

he keeps sending his cia director, bill burns, back. i think from what i hear, bill burns is really acting as the guarantor of this deal, saying to all sides, the united states undertakes to guarantee the basics, the framework that is being negotiated here. the most difficult language, obviously, is about how long this period of cease-fire lasts. is it a permanent end to the war as hamas wants? is it a lull of some weeks, months, as israel has been willing to concede? the phrase they've come up with, sustainable calm, is an attempt to satisfy both sides. it is classic diplomatic language. it allows both to claim victory in a sense. hamas can say, we got a permanent truce. israel says, no, no, it is sustainable calm, that's different. my feeling, joe and mika, is that the one thing that we need to bear in mind is after everything that's happened,

israel is not going to settle for a hamas win. anything that really looks like they've capitulated to hamas demands isn't going to fly. they want the hostages back. it's a demand of the israeli public that's deep, that netanyahu can't ignore. but perhaps that phrase, sustainable calm, will be sufficiently vague, that israelis can sell it to the public. but i don't think anyone should assume that israeli operations to destroy what remains of hamas military power are not going to continue over the next months. not necessarily over the next weeks, but, you know, that part of the war isn't over. it won't be. i don't think israel is prepared to see hamas come back as the dominant governing force in gaza. >> jonathan lemire, we know president biden had a call with benjamin netanyahu yesterday. what do we know about what came out of that call? >> so the president, first of all, stressed the need to get

humanitarian aid back into gaza and was able to push prime minister netanyahu to agree to reopen a crossing there that allowed that to resume. he also said that the u.s. maintains its need, goal for these hostages to be released, and to support efforts to do so. he also issued yet another warning, another warning to netanyahu, against an all-out invasion of rafah. certainly, the president stressed, we understand the need to get hamas leaders. we've been behind you on that since october 7th. but civilian casualties must be avoided. israel hasn't presented a plan to do so. and that call happened in the hours before this confusion about what cease-fire agreement may or may not have agreed to. what hamas said, they're taking one agreement. israel says, that's not good enough. that was not part of the call yesterday. but u.s. and israeli officials have been in constant contact about what's next. today, with this very fraught backdrop, the president is going

to be on capitol hill for holocaust remembrance day, for the commemorations of the 6 million jews killed during world war ii. he will be speaking about that moment and also more broadly about anti-semitism. what we saw on college campuses in recent weeks, when some of those protests, pro-gaza protests spiralled out of control. more broadly, just the surge in anti-semitism we've seen across the country and globe in recent years, particularly since october 7th. there are certainly domestic political considerations for this president, as well. but, david ignatius, let's talk more about what happens next. there's some reportingthis morning in "axios" and other places, tension between israel and washington. officials claiming washington knew about the hamas deal but didn't inform israel, and israel was, therefore, caught off guard. i think there is more pressure, to richard's point earlier, on netanyahu to take some type of deal or at least hold off the invasion of rafah to let negotiations continue.

what more, if anything, can this president do to get netanyahu to listen? >> jonathan, i think the hardest part of this is that there are sharp divisios within israel now. there's growing dissent, unhappiness from some of the senior people in the israeli defense forces who have been uncomfortable with netanyahu really for months, but that's, i'm told, come to a head in the last week. what they want, what they're demanding, is a clearer plan for how israel gets from here to a stable gaza. they are not seeing that yet from the netanyahu government. the idf wants, as it pulls its troops back, to be confident it is not going to have to send them in again and have a repeat of this. for now, i think that is a key element. i do think president biden's personal guarantees through director burns, shuttling back and forth between doha and

cairo, have been a key element in this. when an american president sends his personal emissary and says, "we guarantee that this outcome will be as we describe it," that's the most a president can do. he puts u.s. credibility on the line. i think that's been important in speaking to the israelis. i think biden's call with netanyahu yesterday was a crucial one. he was putting it on the line. the united states needs this end to fighting. we need this cease-fire agreement to work. you have to help us get it. similar things have been said, obviously, to the hamas side through qatar and egypt. i think we're in this tense, final phase of a negotiation. it is one in which the president's credibility, his interests as president and the future of this region are totally engaged. we'll see what he says publicly because that'll be a moment when he speaks to the country, not in private to his negotiators. >> yeah. all right.

"the washington post"'s david ignatius, thank you very, very much. still ahead, in just one minute, donald trump's criminal trial will pick up again just a short time from now back in new york city. we're going to go over what we learned yesterday as prosecutors focused on the trump organization's paper trail. and the judge holds the former president in contempt again. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 60 seconds. (♪♪) [shaking] itchy pet?

(♪♪) with chewy, save 20% on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] beautiful look at lower manhattan at 17 past the hour. it is day 13 of donald trump's criminal trial which resumes later this morning, a day after the judge issued his sharpest warning yet of potential jail time for the former president for continuing to violate his gag order. at the start of court yesterday, judge juan merchan found trump in contempt for a tenth time,

fining him an additional $1,000. but in his ruling, the judge stated, quote, it appears that the $1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. judge merchan also acknowledged the magnitude of potentially jailing trump and how disruptive to the proceedings it would be. stating, quote, "the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. you are the former president of the united states, and possibly the next president, as well. there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. but at the end of the day, i have a job to do. so, as much as i do not want to propose a jail sanction, i will, if necessary." willie? when the trial resumed, prosecutors delved into the documents that are at the heart of this case. that came in testimony from former trump organization controller jeffrey mcconnie and current employee deborah, an

accounts supervisor and veteran of the company. they explained the mechanics of reimbursing michael cohen for the $130,000 paid to adult film actress stormy daniels to keep her quiet about an alleged affair with donald trump. trump has denied any sexual encounter with daniels. they also describe how several of the large sums that went to cohen for the alleged purposes of hush money payments came directly from donald trump's bank account. and for the first time during the trial, a check from the alleged scheme was shown in court. let's bring in former litigator, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. you got a front row seat yesterday inside the courtroom. perhaps not as splashy as david pecker when you hear about someone from accounts payable, but really important to this case. >> totally important. as understated, what you just said was, maybe as juan merchan

telling donald trump that it appears the $1,000 fines are not working as a deterrent. >> yeah. >> yesterday was an incredibly important day in court and not at all a sensational one. document by document, the witnesses went through the 34 business records that are alleged here to have been falsified, and the prosecutors made them read from those documents so that the jury can understand what specifically about each and every one of these documens is allegedly false. for example, michael cohen's 12 invoices all say "pursuant to our retainer agreement, here is my bill for services rendered." what is false about that? there was no retainer agreement. there were no services rendered. similarly, they had to go through the checks and the check stubs, the check stubs, each one of which says it is pursuant to a retainer, and then they had to go through the general business ledger entries that, similarly, say this is pursuant to a retainer and for legal services.

that is not at all exciting for the jury. you could see there were at times their attention waned, but it is at the crux here and perhaps the most important date legally in the trial, if not the most exciting one. >> the fact we learned they came directly from donald trump's personal bank accounts andorgan account. also, when asked, did this go through the legal department at the trump organization, because, they claim, we're talking about legal retainers, he said, no. she admitted that was unusual. how damning was the testimony to donald trump yesterday? >> i think the testimony was damning to donald trump in a number of ways. and not even ways the jury probably fully appreciates yet but hopefully will on closing argument. there was an episode early on when trump called mcconnie in because he was delivering something to donald trump in

terms of a cash balance from week to week basis, one of his responsibilities. trump was on the phone and said, hold on, hold on, jeff, you're fired. he's waiting for mcconnie. when we got off the phone, he said, you're not fired but the cash balance went down. why is that? he said, i had bills to pay. trump instructs him, from this point forward, don't just pay the bills as they're tendered. you negotiate. mcconnie said that was a teaching moment for him. remember, if a person is telling you as the person responsible for paying out all of his bills, negotiate everything, it is kind of at odds with that to then have these invoices come in for $35,000 every month without any explanation, two lines saying, pursuant to our retainer agreement, here's my bill for services, and expect to be paid $35,000 with no questions asked. that's not who donald trump was, and the prosecutors want the jury to understand that. >> these are not disgruntled employees. in fact, tarasov is still an

employee and was telling the truth on the stand yesterday. let's talk about judge merchan, saying to donald trump, i don't want to put you in jail, but if you keep violating the gag order, clearly $1,000 per violation is not making a dent here, i'm going to have to do it. will we reach that point? >> i hope not. i compared judge merchan a couple weeks ago to the disappointed parental or grandfatherly figure we all have that gets quieter the angrier he gets. his tone yesterday was definitely one more of sorrow than anger. he was very understated. hopefully he is impressing upon the former president, this is, as he said, this is the last thing i want to do. yet, if i have no choice, i will do it because the statute provides him only with two options. either $1,000 per violation or incarceration up to 30 days. he said, this isn't making a

dent, $1,000 per. the district attorney alleged four violations. only one of them juan merchan found yesterday was violative of the gag order. two of the alleged violations are about michael cohen. the trump team made inroads with merchan by showing him that trump's statements about cohen were close in time, if not on the same day, to statements cohen made about trump on x that were highly inflammatory. they said trump was just defending himself against a politicized attack. merchan didn't agree with them, per se, but he said it was close enough that he couldn't find beyond a reasonable doubt that trump should be held in criminal contempt. look for trump to test those lines a little more, particularly if michael cohen or stormy daniels continues to talk. on the other hand, if he goes after jurors again or makes a statement about a different witness, do i think juan merchan is a man of his word? i do, whiley willie, and we'll >> there's this debate about whether or not donald trump actually wants to be put in jail, maybe for a day or one night, just to have the story

and say, see, they locked me up. i'm your retribution. everything else. we heard commentators on other networks saying, please put him in jail. it'll win him the election. on the other hand, donald trump doesn't really want to sit in a jail cell for a night. the $1,000 per violation, maybe trump is calling judge merchan's bluff. we'll see where this goes. >> speaking to a lot of people close to the former president, he does not want to spend a night in jail. that was the case. he talked about it last summer when he was indicted in georgia and had to go for that mugshot, that he was rattled by some of that. he's been quizzing people at his mar-a-lago resorts and other places about prison. people, some of whom we know spent time there. he has made it very clear that he does not want it to happen. this is something his whole life, he's been fearful of this possibility. so he is trying to put up a brave face, trying to rally his supporters, trying to say, i'll

be a martyr by going to jail for a night or two because it'll be more evidence of the deep state conspiracy against me. but he doesn't want to go to jail. there has been no evidence this trial is bringing more voters to his side. we haven't seen it hurt his standings. to this point, the polls largely stay unchanged. trump slipped a little bit, biden gained. it is hard to assign credit to the trial for that. a verdict, however, may change things. lisa, walk us through the mechanics if you will. say it happens and judge merchan finally says, enough is enough. whether it is this week, next week, whatever it might be, and says, trump, you violated the order again. we have to put you in jail a night or two. it'd be a logistical nightmare with secret service agents and stuff, uncharted territory. best guess, what would this look like? >> my best guess and also based on conversations that reporters are having amongst themselves in the courthouse. there is a general consensus that if juan merchan were to

find that donald trump has to spend time in jail, it wouldn't be in the notorious rikers island complex. it'd likely be in some holding facility adjacent to the courthouse, where secret service can be nearby. it is also my understanding that there have been some preliminary conversations between secret service, corrections officers, and the court itself. it is not clear whether secret service is prepared to or would leave donald trump's side. preparations would have been to be made if the time comes. for anybody hoping to see donald trump in an orange jump suit shipped off to rikers island for criminal contempt for violating the gag order, i can assure them now, that's probably not how this will go down at all. john, i want to say, i full fully agree donald trump doesn't want to spend 24 minutes in jail, let alone 24 hours. that's evident by how hard todd

blanche has tap danced to assure judge merchan trump didn't knowingly or voluntarily violate the gag order. you wouldn't do it if your client wants to go to jail to show something to his supporters. >> putting that aside, did anything happen yesterday that would interrupt the notion this is moving at a very, very fast pace? >> the opposite, mika. at the end of the day, judge merchan -- we finished 11 witnesses. judge merchan wanted a read from the prosecution about how things are moving overall. josh steinglass, sort of the lead prosecutor, said, well, and there was a laughter in the courtroom. merchan said, could you elaborate on that? josh steinglass said, for the record, that he thought that he could be finished, or, rather, the prosecution could be finished their case in chief two weeks from today. that's eight remaining trial days. that would include, presumably,

the testimony of michael cohen and perhaps stormy daniels, as well. each of which are expected to last for multiple days. i think this is moving at a rapid clip. even faster, maybe, than the district attorney's office anticipated. >> msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thank you very, very much. we'll see you again soon. coming up, former press secretary jen psaki is out with a new inside account from her time serving in the white house. she joins us with that ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel,

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on your wing, grandpa! trump hosted a luncheon for wealthy donors, including a dozen potential running mate, all auditional to be his number two on the exciting new reality competition show, "so you think you can pence." only donald trump could end up with a running mate and a cell mate in the same month. marco rubio, elise stefanik, jd chance, and south dakota governor kristi noem, who i really love that she thinks she still has a shot. i mean, she had a shot. she used it on her dog.

>> oh, my god. the executive editor of "the new york times" is pushing back against criticism that the newspaper has received for its coverage of the 2024 election. in an interview with semafor, joseph kahn responded to attacks from some of the left, saying "the times" reporting is too critical of president joe biden and could enable donald trump to win back the white house. there are so many things wrong with that right there. "there are people out there in the world who may decide, based on their democratic rights, to elect donald trump as president," kahn said. "it is not the job of the news media to prevent that from happening. it's the job of joe biden and the people around biden to prevent that from happening. to say that the threats of democracy are so great that the media is going to abandon its central role as a source of

impartial information to help people vote, that's essentially saying that news media should become a prone bangda arm for the single candidate, because we prefer that candidate's policy." ben smith conducted the interview with joseph kahn. also the author of the 2023 book out today in paperback entitled "traffic." genius rivalry and delusion in the billion-dollar race to go viral. >> you know, ben, you can go online for five seconds and find examples of "the times" being hammered for being too anti-biden, too anti-trump, too anti-israel, too anti-palestinian. it's just -- it goes with it, even though it is seen as a center-left newspaper. the goal is to play it straight down the middle. talk about the frustrations that the executive editor is feeling right now. >> yeah, i mean, i think, you know, it is a moment when democrats really want the media in their corner. you know, what a lot of people see as this battle over

democracy. what's happening inside "the new york times" is a sense that during particularly the summer of 2020, they aligned themselves too much with particularly the progressive wing of the democratic party. you know, out account of their staff, the cultural forces. i think kahn sees his job as pulling the institution back from what he called excesses in the moment. inconvenient time, perhaps, for joe biden, for "the times" to be symbolically focused on dragging itself back from the brink. >> what did marty baron say at "the washington post," we're going to work, not war. it seems to me that even if readers look at these newspapers and sense that it seems like they're going to war against some of the more extreme elements of donald trump's platform, against his future plans, again, the editor, people in the newsroom, their job is not to pick sides. their job is to report the

facts. of course, in my opinion, because we don't have to play it down the middle, the facts are heinous enough to speak for themselves. >> yeah. i think there is a question of, you know, what exactly does it mean to play it down the middle? you know, is the job of the media to fight for democracy, or in democracy, do we have this constrained, specific lane, and we're supposed to stay in it? i think "the times" is deciding the second option there. >> ben, let's talk about "traffic." you updated it in paperback. it takings us back to the beginning which, to me, doesn't feel that long ago, but i guess it is now, when you were a young buck coming up. there was all this disruption in media. it wasn't just about legacy anymore. it was going to be gawker and huffington post and buzzfeed, which you did so much work with and helped to build. how different has it ended up, which is one of the points of your book, than you all viewed it when you began?

in other words, it was a progressive group of young, almost new york-based journalists, and this chase of traffic and clicks led us to a different place. >> yeah. i wrote the book in 2020 sort of looking back at this era that began with blogs, embarrassing to say that i was a blogger at the time. it was both presumptively of the left and kind of left leaning, and, also, there was a sense this was the future, the progressive, new media. you look back now, and that was wrong in two ways. one, the people who were best able to use these populist tools of, you know, the digital media, associate media, turned out to be the right, steve bannon and donald trump. the other surprise was a realization i had to write a chapter about "the new york times," which did emerge in some ways as the winner of that period. >> john? >> we didn't hear you, willie. but, yeah, ben, let's talk a little more about this landscape in terms of the media now. where do you see it going?

it seems like nearly every day, there is reports of layoffs. there's reports of consolidation. there are few outlets that seemingly have the resource and the ability to do their job the way they see fit, to do what the readers and viewers demand. give us just -- forecast for us, if you will, the future of all this, when the news has never been more important. world events never moving faster but we seem to be struggling to keep up. >> the big story in media right now is fragmentation. it is a hard, confusing story to cover. everything is getting smaller. tv is getting smaller. traditional news outlets are getting smaller. tons of small and medium-sized podcasts and newsletters and things are springing up around them. but it's a moving target. there's no center. the data point i'm obsessed with is the biggest -- you know, a lot of podcasts out there. the most popular is joe rogan. big audience but he's only got 5% of the podcast market. if you only had 5% of the

morning news market, that would be a big problem. you know, it is essentially a landscape in which there is no huge player. there's tons of medium-sized players. if you're on the new york subway, you have no idea what other people are listening to in the airpods. people are retreating from the big, open social media spaces into smaller spaces, probably for better and for worse. >> ben, since you wrote this book, it -- as jonathan was saying, the situation has gotten tougher and tougher. more fragmentation and also more failure. look what happened over the past year. from "the l.a. times" to "the messenger" to you name it, it seems one business, whether it is traditional newspaper or whether it's website based, one after another is falling. a couple questions. one, why is it that "the new york times" seems to only be

getting stronger? two, what is the lesson from all these failures for the startups of the next few years? >> you know, in some sense, the big story is the decline of local. "the new york times" is getting stronger, in a sense, because why would you read "the los angeles times" or "the plain dealer" when you can get "the new york times"? with search engines, the best platform gets more data, gets more money, gets better, "the times" is the winner of this nationalization of news. local press everywhere is the loser. the way the industry is shrinking, the real thing that is hitting the news industry, isn't tech media, journalism locally, but local news is being ruined. those of us trying to build new things like us at "semafor," being careful and focused. in a way not unlike television, actually, the voices of

individual journalist who is can connect to people, who are maybe skeptical of institutions, but i do think that none of us are chasing at the kind of scale they were, for instance, at buzzfeed. >> all right. "semafor's" ben smith, thank you so much. his book is entitled "traffic, genius rivalry and delusion in the billion-dollar race to go viral." it's out in paperback today. thanks, ben. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> did you believe that you were targeted deliberately, that people knew who you were, knew that you were landing on that flight, and deliberately targeted you? >> i believe so, yes. i wholeheartedly believe that. >> that was wnba star brittney griner speaking with msnbc's joy reid in a cable exclusive about her arrest which led to her russian confinement. ahead, we'll hear more from griner detailing the mind games she says the russians played on her behind bars. and whether or not she thought she would ever make it home.

also ahead, we'll dig into georgia republican jeff duncan's blistering, new op-ed, where he blasts those in his own party who fall in line with donald trump. and what he is revealing about who he will vote for this election cycle and why. "morning joe" will be right back. today, at america's beverage companies,... ...our bottles might still look the same... ...but they can be remade in a whole new way. thanks to you... we're getting bottles back... and we've developed a way

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kicks it, divincenzo,

three-pointer. down it goes! >> dante divincenzo breaking a tie with 40 seconds left, putting the knicks ahead for good in another thriller at the garden last night. point guard jalen brunson, the all-star, notched his fourth consecutive playoff game with 40 or more points. he had 43 last night, including 21 in the fourth quarter, to lead the knicks to a 121-117 victory over the indiana pacers in the opener of their second round series. game two tomorrow night at madison square garden. jonathan lemire, back page of "the post," thrilla nova. the nova knicks combining for 92 points when you put josh hart in there, as well. they were trailing most of the game. it was dicey. man, the garden came alive there at the end. >> yeah, that's when i think the pacers are really going to regret letting it slip away. they led most of the way. you have a chance to steal game

one on the road, put the pressure squarely on new york, seize control of the series. they couldn't close out. jalen brunson, credit to him and his villanova teammates. he has been so good in these playoffs. i mean, willie, you weigh in on this. some knicks fans are suggesting he is a top five knick of all time. it seems premature for a franchise with not a lot of championships but has walt clyde frazier and others. he's carrying the team. that's a big win. >> he is high on the list. let's see how deep they go. if he brings them a title, the first since 1973, he climbs. man, they were talking about michael jordan and jerry west in terms of consecutive 40-point games in the playoffs last night. he is doing it and doing it so consistency. 21 in the fourth quarter. putting them on his back. game two tomorrow night. john, how about the story out west? defending champion nuggets on the ropes a little. the timberwolves dominating

denver on their home court again last night. anthony edwards, karl-anthony towns of minnesota each scored 27 points. t-wolves to improve to 6-0 in the playoffs with a 106-80 blowout of the nuggets in game two of their second round series. minnesota can sweep denver with wins friday night and sunday night. back on their home court. you know, you never want to count out the nuggets, jonathan, but losing two on your home floor gets you close. >> i suspect the nuggets won't get swept. they're the defending champs, still the greatest player in the league with jokic. this is stunning. minnesota did this without rudy gobert, who missed the game because of the birth of his child. suffocating defense, holding denver to 80 points. anthony randolph is 22 years old, extraordinary talent. they're stunned to beat denver like that at home.

the winner of that series, of course, gets the winner of the oklahoma city/dallas series, which kicks off tonight. as does the celtics and cavaliers, game one in boston. kristaps porzingis still out. celtics favored in the series, but it should be a good couple days of basketball. how you feeling about the knicks? >> i feel good. that was -- i wasn't feeling great for about 3 1/2 quarters last night, then they turned it on. there is nowhere else like it. when the garden gets to a playoff game like that, and the rangers have one tonight, the place is rocking. >> yeah. >> i feel relieved, let's put it that way, after that game one win. >> yeah. this is deeply premature, but it was pointed hadn't occurred to me, we're on track for a boston and new york finals in the nba and nhl. very much alive. it'd be something and, frankly, test our friendship. >> it did cross my mind, but i dare not say it out loud.

we'll see what happens. back to politics, marjorie taylor greene could be backing off her threat to remove speaker mike johnson. we'll get some new reporting about their long meeting yesterday on capitol hill. plus, we'll have the latest on an american soldier in russian custody this morning. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back. - it's apparent. not me. - yeah. nice going lou! nothing like a little confidence boost to help ease you back in to the dating scene. that includes having a smile you feel good about. fortunately, aspen dental specializes in dentures and implants made just for you. and with flexible financing, you don't need to sacrifice quality work for a price that fits your budget. at $0 down plus 0% interest if paid in full in 18 months. helping our patients put their best smile forward. it's one more way aspen dental is in your corner.

is it safe to say you'lltiad trump? >> i feel it is my duty to pick the person who i think would do the least damage to the country. i think trump would do less damage than biden. the stuff about a threat to democracy, i think the real threat to democracy is the progressive movement and the biden administration. >> you have said you endorse former president trump. will you vote for him? >> i said three years ago,

shortly after the assault on the capitol, that i would support the nominee of the party, whoever that was, and i do. >> that includes voting for him? >> i said it three years ago. i'm not just making news today. >> a look at some of the high-profile republicans who are now endorsing donald trump despite criticizing the former president in the past. now, jeff duncan, the former republican lieutenant governor of georgia, is calling them out by name in a new op-ed for "the atlanta journal constitution." duncan writes, quote, "it is disappointing to watch an increasing number of republicans fall in line behind former president donald trump. this includes some of his fiercest detractors, such as senate minority leader mitch mcconnell, new jersey governor chris sununu, and former u.s. attorney general bill barr." he continues, "yes, elections

are a binary choice. yes, serious questions linger about president biden's ability to serve until the age of 86. his progressive policies aren't to conservatives' liking. the alternative is another term of trump, a man who has disqualified himself through his conduct and his character. most important, trump fanned the flames of unfounded conspiracy theories that led to the horrific events of january 6th. he refuses to admit he lost the last election and has hinted he might do so again after the next one. trump has shown us who he is. we should believe him. to think he is going to change at the age of 77 is beyond improbable. unlike trump, i've belonged to the gop my entire life. this november, i am voting for a decent person i disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant

without a moral compass." let's bring in the host of msnbc's "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki. she's out today with the new book entitled "say more, lessons from work, the white house, and the world." i can't wait to talk about this book. congratulations, jen. >> thank you. it is exciting. >> really exciting. >> actually, the story i just started off here with, jeff duncan, is an interesting segue into your book. it's about having to say something no one on your team wants to hear. what do you think of what the lieutenant governor has put out there? >> well, i mean, first of all, good for him. there needs to be more jeff duncans out there. what he said was basically, i disagree with president biden on policy issues, but we're at an existential time. that's my summary of it. therefore, i'm going to vote for him. why is that so hard? i mean, watching those clips of people who have nothing -- what does mitch mcconnell have to lose?

>> right. >> mitch mcconnell is at the end of his political career. mitch mcconnell has been the -- has been a high-ranking member of republican leadership for years. he has nothing to lose. what he has to lose is where he is in the history books. by answering that question the way he did, people are going to look at him like, wow, that wasn't exactly courageous or bold. yes, watching that is painful. i don't know why this is such a hard question to answer for so many members. we need more jeff duncans out there. >> bill barr, when you listen to the answer, gave the same predicate as jeff duncan, meaning, i don't love either of these guys. i think it is the lesser of two evils. but i believe that donald trump, says bill barr, will do less damage than joe biden. jeff duncan is making the opposite point. i don't like joe biden, may be too old, don't like his policies, but look at the country. he'll do less damage than donald trump. >> may we have elections in four years, essentially is what jeff duncan is saying.

bill barr, when he talks about progressive policies, the additional reporting on this suggests it is things like the risk to gas stoves. you're saying the risk to gas stoves is more existential than the risk to our democracy and the ability of people to have their voices heard? that's what he is saying. >> jen, far be it from me to put you in bill barr's shoes or someone else's, but why? we know why senator tim scott is embarrassing himself on tv every day. he wants to be vice president. but to mitch mcconnell, bill barr, any of these people, why? is it just to be close to power? they believe donald trump is going to get re-elected? what is it? >> i think there's two categories. the tim scott category, embarrassing to watch, cringey. it's hard to watch. i think some think that maybe donald trump will go away. maybe he'll go to jail. maybe he will die, not to be too morbid. but he is not a young man. who knows what is in their

minds. they think, maybe i'll be behind the oval office. maybe i'll be in the oval office. the other category is the one you mentioned. all these people. bill barr, that guy isn't going to be in government again. they're fearful of the mob coming out against them. fearful of the pro-trump mob, the maga mob. threats is a real thing, as you'll have discussed frequently on "morning joe." they're fearful of that group. they're fearful of people who are his supporters. maybe some of them are in the business community, perhaps, but more the mob out there. i understand that. but, you know what? there are people who are -- sarah matthews was a deputy press secretary in the white house. she has said, i don't agree with joe biden, but i feel that the threat is existential. i'm going to support him. i'm a conservative, right? she's a woman who is about 30 years old, if that. bill barr, i mean, have some

courage here. >> i mean, that's the thing. you have these women like cassidy hutchinson who was willing to stand up. >> mm-hmm. >> and others that were willing to stand up and speak out. with bill barr, you're right. i think so much is just afraid of this mob. being concerned about that. also, we've seen it with rudy giuliani, there's just this desperate desire for relevance. you have -- >> yeah. >> you know, if joe biden is re-elected, leonard leo and his $1.4 billion is not going to be deciding who is on the supreme court. if leonard leo and his $1.4 billion do help decide who is basically going to be bought onto the supreme court, you have somebody like bill barr who suddenly becomes extraordinarily relevant.

because they are catholic culture warriors, fellow travelers. >> yeah. >> barr will be relevant, one way or the other then. >> it is -- i keep wondering to myself, i don't know if y'all feel this way, every time bill barr does an interview, why are you doing this interview? i mean, your answers are confusing. your position is confusing, contradictory, but you are being pushed on the same questions. they never quite make sense. i don't understand why he is going out there and doing all these interviews. it may be relevance, completely, as joe said, but he is not helping himself become a convincing person out there in terms of his argument. >> i will say, also, you know, i just gave the cynical reason why. there's also, willie, the less cynical reason why, and it is just, again, being a culture warrior who is around in the 1960s, who was on college campuses. i believe he was on columbia. i read a story of how he was on

columbia. i've said it here before. i remember the first time i campaigned in january of 1994, knocking on doors. after knocking all day, i went back, my parents said, what'd you learn? i said, well, i learned that you're either on the side of jane fonda or the side of john wayne. there is no middle ground. that was in 1994, 30 years ago. about 25 years before that, you had the chaos on college campuses, in the streets, you name it. man, there was this bright red line that divided the john waynes from the jane fondas. that's sort of this prism through which they saw the world. there are a lot of people who went through that time that just will never vote for a democrat or ever vote for a republican because of how their youth was

shaped. >> yeah. they're getting reminders of that on the campuses over the last couple of weeks. jonathan lemire, you've written about all of this in your book, "the big lie," out in paperback today, i should point out. this idea that that was an off-ramp, that was a big off-ramp for a lot of republicans. in fact, they took it very briefly. lindsey graham pounding the lectern that night saying, i'm done. we're out. we've had a good run. trump and i are out. he is harassed at the airport famously and flips back. you have the people like kevin mccarthy going to mar-a-lago. point being, there have been so many moments where they could have said good-bye to donald trump. it is a choice. they have made the choice to rush back to his side. >> yeah, they've made that choice time and time again. you just illustrated a few of those examples. another was when the rnc put language in its official platform deeming january 6th legitimate political discourse, saying, basically, the big lie and the violence it inspired was simply part of the politics now.

jen, that is, of course, shaping this election, too. the big lie wasn't just about 2020. it is about 2024, as well. we have heard tim scott say that he wouldn't trust the election was legitimate unless trump won. trump himself has said that repeatedly. more and more republicans joining that chorus. speak to us of the challenge, if you will, for your former boss and his campaign. how do they get that message across to the american people, saying, look, it's not just team red versus team blue here, but this is actually about the future of democracy itself? how do you communicate that to an electorate who is more concerned about how much things cost, how they get their kids to school, or the day-to-day things that make up their lives? >> i'll answer your question but an additional challenge they have, you saw lara trump the last couple days repeat what we've seen trump do over the last several election cycles, which is challenge any ballot that comes in after election

day. now, that's a very legitimate -- 22 states, you can do mail-in ballots in the country. they can be mostpostmarked on election day. the votes are legitimate. by putting that out there, she is questioning it, legitimacy. that's a form of voter suppression. that's what you're seeing come from a co-chair of the rnc. that is an additional challenge for the biden team to say, the vote does count. mail-in ballots are valid. people are hearing all sorts of information. if you're them, you pick your moments. you pick your moments when you make the democracy argument, which is front and center and very powerful. as much as it has been undervalue election cycle after election cycle. they have to balance that, also, with talking about the issues that are impacting people's lives in a more visceral way, in the way they can feel it, like abortion rights, like tax cuts. those are issues that people deeply care about, as well. their challenge is that there's only so much space in the

newspaper, so much time on "morning joe," so much oxygen out there and air time on television. they really need to figure out what the balance is, of making that powerful democracy argument, choose your moments, while also talking about the issues where there is a contrast that people feel viscerally and deeply in their everyday lives. >> yeah. there's only so much time on "morning joe." >> yeah, there's four hours but -- >> it's every -- >> it's a lot. >> you have to talk about the other issues in the world. >> it's a lot. >> you guys need five. five hours? >> please don't put that in the universe. >> shh. >> mika, it's interesting. i was talking about bill barr, talking about people shaped by the chaos and the radicalism of the 1960s. i'm glad willie went to jonathan, talking about january 6th. >> yeah. >> because there was the chaos. like, that was the chaos. that was the radicalism on january 6th that turned my parents off, as i've talked

about, in 1968. that time, it was what they saw as radicals on the far left. now, if that's what turned barr and other future republicans off, then why wouldn't they have been so deeply offended by january 6th, they could never go there? because the radicals, that's what is so maddening about people like barr. the radicals are now on the trump right, and he knows it, whether it is donald trump, again, causing january 6th, whether it is donald trump talking about assassinating political opponents and being able to use s.e.a.l. team six to do that, whether it is donald trump talking about assassinating the chairman of joint chiefs for treason, whether it is donald trump talking about arresting for treason reporters who disagree with him, whether it is donald

trump talking about being a dictator from day one, whether it is donald trump talking about terminating the constitution, whether it is donald trump telling "time" magazine one day he's all in for states monitoring women's pregnancy, then going back on it the next day, just like donald trump told chris matthews that he was for women and doctors being punished for having abortions. i mean, we could go on and on. there's the radicalism. he knows there's the radicalism. i mean, just the absolute stripping of constitutional rights. again, the assassination of political opponents being, you know -- him saying that he gets a free pass. >> you know -- >> if he is president. >> in the beginning of his first term and his campaign, there was a lot of people on his side saying, he's just saying that. you know, he just says that stuff. he doesn't mean it.

he has proven. joe gave us a list. he also lied to the american people about covid. he made it clear to bob woodward he was going to hold back on telling them about it, which is crazy. >> they've got the tapes. >> no matter how many people died of covid. >> they have the tapes, yeah. >> causing violence. the day he held the bible upside down or january 6th. there's some, you know, definite involvement on his part that you can debate, but, at the same time, he is calling the people who were arrested for storming the capitol hostages. i mean, he has now proven that he means what he says, and it is only going to get worse. this isn't fear mongering or, you know, left versus right. this is reality. >> it is actually -- >> this is where we're at. >> it's actually reading -- >> i'm not sure what bill barr is doing. >> reading his words. >> maybe it's at the behest of trump. don't understand what mitch mcconnell is doing.

i don't get it. probably on the wrong side of history. safe to say. >> definitely on the wrong side of history. these guys who were once traditional conservatives, traditional republicans, sitting there saying, yes, i'm going to support the guy who loves kim jong-un. i'm going to support the guy who talks about how brilliant the head of the communist chinese party is. is going to support the guy, bill barr is going to support the guy that has said that, like, he's encouraged vladimir putin to invade nato countries. >> yeah, it doesn't make sense. we want to get to the latest breaking news overnight. israel defense forces say they have taken operational control of the gaza side of the rafah crossing. the military released this video overnight of troops entering the area and beginning a, quote, precise counterterrorism operation. israeli officials say they seized the crossing after

receiving intelligence it was being used for terrorist purposes. the move comes as uncertainty remains over a cease-fire deal. negotiations are set to continue today in cairo. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: in gaza, they're celebrating their salvation after hamas announced it had accepted a sweeping cease-fire. but it seems they're celebrating too soon. israel says there is no deal yet, that the terms hamas accepted are far from israel's necessary requirements and are not the original offer israel had on the table. but israel is dispatching a delegation to negotiate. while its war cabinet has also unanimously approved a targeted operation against hamas in the southern city of rafah. our crew capturing it. >> there has been a response from hamas to the hostage deal. we're currently reviewing that

response. >> reporter: while the details remain unclear, a senior arab negotiator directly involved in the talks tells nbc news, hamas's position has shifted greatly over the past 48 hours. and the deal hamas says it accepts would see it free 33 hostages in exchange for a roughly 40-day cease-fire. followed by further hostage releases and the freeing of more than 1,000 palestinian prisoners held in israeli jails. but the source notes, with israel not at the most recent negotiations, hamas agreed to its own terms, using its own interpretation of the offer. israel believes 93 hostages captured on october 7th are still alive in gaza and that many of them are being held in rafah. the only remaining city in gaza where israel has not yet conducted major ground operations. israel ordered roughly 100,000 palestinians to evacuate from part of rafah using leaflets to

announce that intense counterterrorism operations were about to begin. president biden opposes a full-scale assault on rafah because it is packed with more than a million civilians who fled there for their safety. >> let's bring in former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. chief international analyst for nbc news. it is good to have you on. >> admiral, thank you so much for being with us. a lot of cross-currents here. what is your best read? >> number one, yesterday, we had kind of a universal flicker of hope that we were headed towards some kind of a temporary cease-fire. i kind of felt, man, that sounds too good to be true. i think, unfortunately, joe and mika, that's probably too good to be true. the reason is, hamas, as richard just told us, effectively reinterpreted the deal that was on the table. the distinctions here are

between time and space. what i mean by that is israel wants a relatively short cease-fire, 40, 45 days, because they know they're going to have to go back in at some point. hamas, on the other hand, wants a full and complete end. that's the time. the space part is hamas is effectively demanding israel leave gaza. well, if those two things happened, a complete stop to hostilities and israel simply withdrew from gaza, at that point, sinwar, this creature of iran, the mastermind behind these horrific attacks, will emerge from his tunnels blinking his eyes like a rat surfaced in the sunlight and will suddenly say, look, i won the war. that's unacceptable for israel. joe, i don't think we're looking at a sudden cease-fire here,

unfortunately. i could be wrong. i hope i am. we'll see what happens as the next day or two continues, but i think we're in for continued combat in that area. >> and, of course, then the fate of the hostages continues to hang in the balance. one frightening notion is that hamas is saying more about what they have in terms of hostages who are alive. do we know anything about their status and how many there are? or how much of a game are they playing with that part of this? >> i think they are, as is their want, continuing to manipulate events cynically in real time, hiding the ball one moment, flashing it in front of desperately, tragically affected families the next. all reports would indicate there are less than 100 but perhaps

90ish hostages still alive. perhaps a very small number of americans and american-israelis in that mix, mika. that's really one piece of the human tragedy, kind of a micro one that we focus on. the big tragedy, of course, is 2.2 million gazans who aren't getting the food, the medical care, the clean water that they need to survive in this increasingly dystopian landscape that you're showing us at this moment. so the first, those hostages, unfortunately, will continue to be pawns held and flashed, if you will, by hamas. the larger humanitarian tragedy, i think, is loosening somewhat. the israelis are opening some degree of these land passages. clearly, the move we saw this morning to take control of the israeli side, the gaza side, i should say, of the rafah border,

that is so that the israelis can ensure resupply is not coming in for the hamas terrorists who are still underground. largely in rafah. third and finally, some good news, the pier that the u.s. military is building offshore will come online in the next couple of days, built by army, navy, navy s.e.a.l.s. protecting it. that'll be a direct shot of aid, probably 100 to 150 truckloads a day will be able to come in. that should alleviate conditions up in the north. that will allow the israelis to move some of the civilians out of rafah. then they can do this precision counterterrorist operation they're talking about in rafah. hopefully that will be the course forward if we don't get the better option of a cease-fire that could be agreed to by both parties in the next couple of days. >> admiral, that precision counterterrorism operation is a

lot more challenging than it may sound, obviously, inside rafah. first, israel is asking 100,000 people to move out of that part of rafah so they can go in. what will the idf be up against? you mentioned the tunnels. you mentioned urban warfare. this is very, very challenging fighting. >> it is indeed. i've said for quite a while, the real center of gravity here is not finding, fixing, and eliminating each and every hamas terrorist. i think that's impossible. numbers have been killed. thousands of them have been killed. there's still thousands operating under those tunnels and in and around that population. yes, it is a very hard, difficult fight. the gravity is not hamas. it is the complex of tunnels. 400 miles of tunnels. that's where hamas trains, operates, deploys, directs, holds hostages.

israel will decommission those tunnels. they'll flood them. they'll blow them up. that's the center of gravity. that is the precision part of what they're talking about. but they've got to, your point, willie, they've got to get the civilians who are cynically being used as shields off of the top of those tunnels. that's a big military move. it is logistics at the end of the day. militaries are pretty good at that. but, boy, that has got to be keeping the idf commander up at night every night, getting those civilians out of the way so they can go after that tunnel complex. >> as you say, many of the hostages believed to be in the tunnel complex. >> yeah. >> that complicates it, as well. retired admiral james stavridis, thanks so much. we appreciate it. jen, let's turn to your book now, out today, titled "say more, lessons from work, the white house and the world." in it, jen writes about her time with former bosses, president obama and biden, and her journey to the white house briefing room

and now to msnbc. offering advice about how to be a more effective communicator in any situation. jen, let's talk first about why you decided to sit down and write this. obviously, you have a lot of wisdom the rest of us don't have, having worked -- >> i don't know about that. >> you've been inside the state department, in all the rooms where it happened with president obama and president biden, as well. what's a big piece of advice that you don't have to have worked in the white house to be able to apply to your life? >> i talk a lot in here about a range of things, about how to communicate. not just from a podium. not everybody is going to do that. but things i've learned over the course of 20 plus years. things like how to give and receive feedback. what to do when you make a mistake. how to deal with different bosses. what to do when you have self-doubt. it's all part of communicating. when i left the white house, i had 20 moments to breathe, the first moments in a long time, and i thought a lot about measure my kids with 6 and 8, a little younger than yours, but

what advice i'd want to give them when they're old enough. what book i wished i had when i was in my 20s when you're learning and figuring the world out. there's tons of -- i know there's lots of political news junkies that watch "morning joe." as a viewer, we all know. stories about president obama, rahm emanuel makes an appearance, john kerry, president biden. it is organized by lessons. i wanted people to have a takeaway because everyone can be a better communicator. >> jen, i love this. in fact, we're going to do an entire "morning mika" on "say more." now, you can be in the league with live chickens, my chicken-eating dog. >> live chickens on the last "morning mika." >> exciting. >> we did. it was -- yes. but i'm curious about giving feedback and learning how to do that. especially when you're giving feedback to the leader of the free world. how did you find your voice and

say more? >> well, first, i've learned a lot from joe and willie, but i've really learned the most from mika since i started here. she is a great feedback giver. she does it in a direct and kind way, which is hard to do. i say that because, one, thank you, mika. you've done that for me but so many people. also, part of it is the key. the tone you use. every boss is different i've ever worked for. one of the thing is learned that it took me until i probably hit 40, know your value, it's all in the theme, is realizing that working for someone, you're not -- nobody wants a yes man or yes woman if you're working for someone. whether in a media organization or a company, bosses want feedback. you have to figure out how to do it in the right framing. for me, doing that for john kerry was very different. i have a story in here about chasing him down the hallway of a hotel and yelling at him,

"that's not credible. you can't say that publicly." with barack obama, i would say, if you say this, frame it this way, this is what people will say. is that what you want? it's all about framing and tone. in your early 20s, early 30s, people need and want feedback who you work for. you have to fight out how to frame it. everybody is different. >> dealing with nerves, i'm curious. when you took to the podium at the white house, i have to say, we had met around washington in the years before. when i heard that you were doing this job, i was like, okay, she'll -- okay. i'm not sure how this is going to go, actually. i can't wait to see. >> there it is. >> that's the kind of honest feedback, everyone, i'm talking about. >> well, i had an open mind. i just -- it wasn't my first thought. and then i couldn't believe. i mean, honestly, one of the greatest there ever was, possibly ever was. >> thank you. >> because you really knew how

to handle what is an uncontrollable situation. i'm curious, do you know where that came from? is that, like -- were you -- how did you learn to handle that room so quickly, so seamlessly? >> well, thank you for all of that. i will say, first, a key that i talk about in here a lot is preparation and how you prepare. i spent time on that because i think it is important. i also think preparing makes you more agile. it can be 15 minutes of preparation. i tell a story in here about the time i went to a state dinner and sat next to chance the rapper and had no idea who he was. that's a bad form of preparation. but my point is that preparing and really understanding and knowing the things you're talking about allows you to be more agile as a public speaker, more agile in a meeting. i'm an advocate. >> inspiration from hannah waddingham on "ted lasso." >> i used to, before the

briefing, if people watch, rebecca, she was rebecca. she's hannah waddingham but rebecca to me, who is the greatest character on "ted lasso." she has a moment in the first season. before she's going in to meet with the male -- they happened to be male -- heads of all the soccer clubs, she kind of makes herself like a tree and makes herself big. it's sort of like a version of the power pose. some days, you know when you're going to the briefing room and it is going to be brutal. sometimes, you just don't have enough information. it is not the press' fault. it is what it is. i'd do the power pose, just to prepare myself to go out there, be ready. and a little shimmy sometimes, too, exactly. >> i love it. >> a combo. >> the book is entitled "say more, lessons from work, the white house, and the world. it is available now. >> thank you. >> this is amazing. >> great. ahead on "morning joe," as tensions escalate between nato

and russia, vladimir putin calls for new combat drills involving tactical nuclear weapons. what it could mean for the war in ukraine. plus, msnbc host joy reid joins us with a look at her cable exclusive interview with brittney griner. what the wnba star is saying about the 293 days she spent imprisoned in russia. and what she learned about herself during that confinement. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. some people just know there's a better way to do things. and some people... don't. bundle your home and auto with allstate and save. you're in good hands with allstate. hey! asthma's got you going through it? grab nucala for fewer asthma attacks. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection

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welcome back. russian president vladimir putin begins his fifth term today. the strong man has already -- was already in office for nearly a quarter century, and his new term doesn't end until 2030 when he will be eligible to run for another six years. meanwhile, russia announced it will stage drills simulating the use of tactical nuclear weapons in the near future as a response to what it calls provocative statements and threats of western officials. it is the first time russia has publicly announced drills involving such weapons, which according to the associated press, includes air bombs, warheads for short-range missiles, and artillery

munitions. tactical nuclear weapons are meant for use on a battlefield and are less powerful than that of strategic nuclear weapons. also, a u.s. army spokesperson has confirmed an american soldier is being held in eastern russia. staff sergeant gordon black was taken into custody may 2nd after accused of stealing from a woman, according to four u.s. officials. black was detained after traveling from south korea, where he was stationed, to a city in russia's far east to meet with a woman he was romantically involved with, officials say. the staff sergeant is the latest american to be detained in russia. current travel guidance from the state department advises against all travel to russia. another american, wnba superstar brittney griner, is

detailing her experience about her arrest and detainment in russia. griner spent ten months behind bars in russia after being sentenced to nine years in prison and later transferred to a russian penal colony. u.s. officials say griner was wrongfully detained in 2022 for vape cartridges in her luggage that contained less than 1 gram of medically-prescribed cannabis oil. she was later released in a rare prisoner swap between the u.s. and russia. now, in a cable news exclusive, msnbc host joy reid spoke with griner about her time in russian capt captivity. >> you spent 293 days in russia, in captivity in russia in various places. what did you learn about yourself in that 293 days? >> i learned that i'm a little bit more resilient than i

thought. i was listening to all those stories pops told me back in the day. you know, he used to work in the prison system, as well. you know, he would tell me stories about how certain inmates would treat him, how he would treat them with respect, as well. i definitely used that, too. i treated everybody with respect. even though they don't know what i'm saying, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, yes, sir, no, sir. you can see how some would treat you with the respect you deserve as a human, and sometimes it just didn't work. >> joy reid joins us now. joy, thank you so much for getting up early for us. we really appreciate it. >> of course. >> it is good to have you. >> thank you for having me, mika. thank you. >> well, this is an amazing interview. i'm dying to hear what else you learned from brittney griner and how you think she's doing. >> you know, it is amazing to just -- and i'm glad you started the way you did, mika. i think, sometimes, we in this

country, particularly given our politics, tend to underestimate and undersell the perniciousness of that regime in russia and what they're willing to do and the ways in which they try to use americans, really to shore up and backstop the core criminality of that regime. they used brittney griner. once they knew they had her, and she believes they targeted her deliberately, she was a pawn. she was a pawn in that politics, in vladimir putin's politics. i think that what, you know, she took from that was, number one, of course, as she said, her own strength and resilience, more than 200 days spent, much of it in a gulag, freezing, having to cut off her hair, her long dreads because they were freezing. she was freezing. having to navigate a world in which she did not speak the language and only really knew the country as a celebrity, not

as somebody who really understood the culture. i think this was, for her, it was hell. she still shows the visible trauma. one of the things that really broke my heart in talking to her, she still blames herself and still, i think, has not given herself the grace that i think she deserves. >> joy, good morning. extraordinary interview. in there, an extraordinary moment when brittney talks about the moment she learned she'd finally be released. >> eventually, you did get liberation, you got freedom. talk about that moment when you realized a deal has been deal. >> i was very happy. very happy. i will never forget, coming to get me from the prison, the workshop, and telling me, you're going home. you're leaving. i was thrilled but then scared, also, because it could fall apart at any moment. also happy because i'm like, okay, well, maybe it is me and

paul's turn now. when i get on this plane, hopefully we're both on this plane. when trevor went home, you know, paul wasn't able to go. i wasn't able to go, my trial was still going on. i was really hopeful that everyone in russia was going to be coming home. >> joy, i'm struck by how often she mentions those who have not left yet. paul whelan she continuously brought up his name over the course of your interview. reminding people, yes, she was free, but there are still some left behind. >> yeah, in the back of the book, she lists all of the americans who have been detained around the world. >> yeah. >> includes the whelan family, all the families rooting for each other's freedom. this was not just about getting one person out. for all of them, it was about getting everyone out. she's really thrown herself into this cause of freeing all of the americans who have been left

behind. as she said, hoping that when she got on that plane, paul whelan would be on that plane, as well. it really does show you the torment these people are going through. think how long paul whelan has been there. went through years. to me, it is sort of shocking to think about spending nearly a year, far from home, wondering if you'll ever get out. she was sentenced to nine years, nine and a half years incarceration for what, in this country, would amount to nothing. for something that wasn't even deliberate. but i think the putin regime understood that they had not just a black celebrity, a black queer celebrity, somebody who could be used internally as a pawn, somebody who they could sort of internally mock and hold hostage from the united states, knowing the trauma it would cause back home. >> joy reid, thank you so much. we'll be watching "the readout"

tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern for part two of joy's exclusive interview with brittney griner. that's right here on msnbc at 7:00 eastern time. joy, thank you so much. coming up, nbc universal vice chair bonnie hammer is live in studio with her new book on the tools women need to succeed in the workplace, and the 15 lies she says may be holding women back. we'll talk about all that when "morning joe" continues. ing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups.

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♪♪ live look at new york city at 47 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." dubbed the queen of cable, nbc universal vice chair bonnie hammer has done every job from production assistant to executive, top executive. starting her career working on a local boston children's show, she has risen through the ranks and transformed popular cable channels like the sci-fi network and usa network into powerhouse brands. under her leadership, that racked up more than 160 emmy award nominations. now, bonnie is sharing the lessons that she learned along the way in her book, "15 lies

women are told at work, and the truth we need to succeed." the book outlines her secrets to success and debunks some of the bad advice she and millions of women have gotten in the workplace. i love this so much. it's bad advice, bonnie, that sounds so good when you say it, right? it sounds so, like, yeah, exactly. >> right. >> you know, follow your dreams. huh-uh. i'm going to jump to number two because it is so know your value. you say, know your worth? no, huh-uh. don't know your worth. what do you say instead? >> well, first of all, i 100% agree with you. when you get to a point in life, you have to know your value and you have to go for it. >> of course. >> but, until you get there, your worth and your value, there is a difference between personal worth and professional worth. too many people conflate the

two. you have to work at your professional worth. you have to show what your value is. i think this generation of kids kind of comes into the workplace thinking they should get better pay, better hours, more fun gigs. >> yeah. >> when the truth is, they need to just show up, you know, be optimistic, be positive, prove their worth, and then it goes from there. so a little different. >> maybe spend some time learning for a while before you -- i mean, what i say in the know your value version of this is, you also need to know when your stock is down. when you're coming in with not a lot of experience, you've got to build it. you have to build it. >> exactly. right now, too many people grunt at grunt work. my first job, i literally i lit cleaned dog poop and the dogs on the set made more money than i did.

did i feel undervalued? yeah, but i put a smile on and picked it up. >> i love it. fake it 'til you make it. you have a different twist on this. >> yes. everybody at some point feels like an impostor, not only women, guys, too. and what you have to understand that the minute you fake it, the minute you lie, if you get caught in that lie, building back that trust is very difficult. and the more important thing is to let people know you are willing to learn. when you ask for help, it empowers somebody else. it makes people want to take you under your wing, under their wing, and support you and help grow you. it is just so important to want to learn and let people help you. not fake it, because it ain't gonna work and you're not gonna learn. >> i totally agree with you. it's not authentic to who you

are. you don't feel comfortable in this. good things come to those who wait. this is why i would never tell a woman this. i hear this advice all the time. i think sometimes women assume people are going to notice their work. you say, great things come to those who act. i would agree. what i tell the know your value community is put yourself out there. take risks, because if you don't put yourself out there, you never know what is going to happen. >> that's exactly right. the only caveat is, when you put yourself out there, it's how you put yourself out there. you have to have confidence, but you also have to have humility. you can't be entitled, feel entitled and make demands. you have to ask in ways that people want to help. that people want to say yes. that people say, oh, yeah, let's give this one a shot. so, it's stylistic. you do -- i call it kind of

sometimes hootspa has a little bit of negativity attached, it comes with arrogance. but knowing how to get out there, ask for something you want, ask for help, but do it in a way that people want to help you. >> you reference it, i am reading through the book. i know it's geared towards women, but every lesson i could take, business, every guy could apply to his career as well. i am glad you out-earned the dog eventually. >> it took a while. >> you have had great mentors in your career and you talk about people like barry diller and many others. you watched now do it right. you make an interesting point, which is look at some mentors you actually don't want to be like. why is that important? >> well, i think again we have grown up to believe that mentors should be cheerleaders.

people who are cheering you on at every moment, super supporters, basically our friend. i am a believer you need a foil, a challenging mentor, sparring partner, somebody who puts the tough in tough love. somebody who basically the truth tellers, they are going to tell you stuff you don't want to hear not because they want to hurt you, but they believe you are capable of more than you believe you are capable of, and they are the ones you learn from. i give barry an awful lot of credit. he scared the hell out of me the entire time i worked for him. since i survived barry, i believe i can go toe-to-toe with anybody because he taught me how to think, how to analyze, how to deal with stuff in a way where i was never unprepared for an argument, but because i was so prepared, i was okay to argue. >> right. maybe he didn't know it in the

moment, he was giving you something very valuable. finally, when you talk about not follow your dreams, follow the opportunities, you mentioned young people. i was this way, you start out, graduate high school, you have this idea of what your life or your career is going to look like and it never goes that way. i can speak from experience. i know you can. you say follow the opportunities. it's not bad to have a dream. but you've got to be practical and see where is the lane for me in this situation. >> i think too many people who follow their dreams are kind of sleepwalking through life in a lot of ways because they ignore certain other opportunities that can get them in different, better places or help them learn. people also don't realize you can still have the passion, still have that dream, but it doesn't have to be a boss. you can keep it, just like for me, photography was my passion and i couldn't get anywhere with it. the camera is still my best friend, but it just doesn't give

me my salary. >> yeah, i love this so much. by way, the advice don't sweat the small stuff, bonnie says sweat all stuff. every little thing. and i completely agree. the new book is "15 lies women are told at work and the truth we need to succeed." it's called hard work. nbcuniversal vice-chair bonnie hammer, thank you so much for coming on. thank you for providing the book. >> thank you. >> take care. it's great to have you on the show this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump's criminal trial set to resume later this morning. we will have a live report from outside the manhattan courthouse. plus, actors ethan hawke and laura linney join us live in studio with a look at their new movie "wildcat." "morning joe" will be right back. ng joe" will be right back tic arthritis,

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joe," israel ramps up its attacks in rafah as ceasefire negotiations continue in egypt. negotiations continue in egypt. search talent all over the world with over 10,000 skills you may not have in house. more than 30% of the fortune 500 use upwork because this is how we work now. switch to shopify so you can build it better, scale it faster and sell more. much more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify.

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in fact, not only is she willing to shoot her dog and goat. now she wants to shoot other dogs, too. >> south dakota governor kristi noem is not backing down, defending her decision to shoot her own dog, implying president joe biden's commander, which no longer lives in the white house after several biting incidents, should be put down. she reportedly writes the first thing she would do if know got to the white house, make sure joe biden's dog was nowhere on the grounds. commander, say hello to cricket.

>> dear lord, this woman has a taste for dog blood. it's like she thought all dogs go to heaven was a personal challenge. >> good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." she can't seem to kick it. she tried to blame it on us. she wrote it, willie. it is tuesday, may 7th. we have a lot to get to. we are going through yesterday's key moments in donald trump's criminal trial, including the judge's warning about potential jail time for the former president and we will get the latest from capitol hill on the threat to mike johnson's speakership along with joe, willie and me, we have associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius out today with "phantom orbit" and the host of "way too early" jonathan lem here and his book "the big lie, election chaos, political opportunism and the state of

american politics after 2020 2020" is out today in paper book. it is book week. we begin with the israel defense forces announcing they have taken operational control of the gaza side of the rafah crossing. the military released this video overnight of troops entering the area and beginning a, quote, precise counterterrorism operation. israeli officials say they seize the crossing after receiving intelligence it was being used for terrorist purposes. no evidence to support that claim was provided. the idf conducted airstrikes that targeted suspected hamas positions in rafah. the move comes just one day after israel ordered about 100,000 civilians to immediately evacuate parts of the southern gaza city. officials say they will operate with extreme force in those

areas. willie. >> and after israel ordered civilians to evacuate, hamas announced they would accept its interpretation of a ceasefire proposal. its interpretation is the operative part there. hours later israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu released a statement saying the proposal hamas agreed to does not meet israel's demands. msnbc msnbc obtained a copy of the draft. the first phase calls for a 42-day ceasefire as well as the release of 33 hostages in exchange for a much larger number of palestinian prisoners. in the second phase there would be the enactment of a, quote, sustainable calm. two officials familiar with the revised proposal tell "the new york times" there were minor wording changes that were signed off by the u.s. and israel. that includes the phrase sustainable calm, but sources tell "the times" hamas viewed that term as an end to the war, which israel was expected to push back on of course. negotiations are set to resume today in cairo. cia director bill burns is

expected to take part in those. joining us live from jerusalem is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engle. he talk about the ceasefire in a moment, that agreement and those dueling interpretations. first, rafah, what's happening down in southern gaza this morning? >> reporter: so israeli troops overnight took over the palestinian side of the rafah border crossing. that gives israel effective control of this key entry point into gaza. it also gives them a foothold into the city. israeli officials say that this is not the start of the widely anticipated big rafah offensive. something that president biden has opposed. this he say this is a tactical move, but it also is something that strengthens their hand as they go back into negotiations. they are holding part of rafah. they did leaflet the area.

our crew in rafah started documenting the israeli bombing campaign really just hours after the really just hours after the leaflets were dropped. they didn't give very much time for people to evacuate the area. we talked yesterday how they were using text messages and leaflets to tell people to get out of this part of rafah. but within hours they were bombing, according to medical officials, in overnight attacks, including that incursion into the palestinian side of the rafah border crossing. at least 20 people were killed, including children. >> a perilous mission and furthering perhaps the humanitarian crisis there. let's talk about this ceasefire and help us understand what we're looking at here because you have one brokered by egypt and qatar. hamas says, yes, we agree to the terms of the ceasefire. israel says, wait a minute, that's not the ceasefire we agreed to. what are we talking about here?

>> reporter: so, it is quite complex. i think you have to understand this as a negotiating process. there was quite a bit of progress over the last week or so. israel backed by the united states put forward a document. it was presented to hamas and the egyptians and the qatari negotiators. you remember secretary of state antony blinken praised that offer saying it was very generous. hamas took it. they said they were reading it positively. but then the israeli government, prime minister netanyahu didn't send a negotiator to follow up on the conversation, didn't send anyone to attend the final talks because, from israel's point of view. >> the document was done. it was as good as it was going to get. even secretary of state antony blinken said it was generous. so why go to the meeting, because showing up at a meeting implies that you are going to have to negotiate a little bit more.

israel didn't go, and hamas and the negotiators working off that document that was there without the presence of the israeli delegation said, yes, we agree to the terms. here it is. but the terms that they presented were not exactly the same terms that israel had presented. so now israel says, fine, we will go back. they are sending a, quote, working-level delegation to cairo today to see if they can find some common ground based on this, these two interpretations of the document that was sent. what it does is it puts quite a bit of pressure on israeli prime minister netanyahu because in this document hamas openly says we are willing to release all of the hostages, all of the women in phase one. three phases. each one 24 days. we are willing to release all of the rest of the hostages in phase two. so the israeli hostage families are hearing that.

opponents of prime minister netanyahu are accusing him of not taking the hostage release seriously. they are hearing that, and it would be difficult at this stage for the israeli government, prime minister netanyahu in particular, to walk away from the deal entirely without at least sending in negotiating teams. and members of his right wing coalition praised him for not sending a negotiating team. we are seeing this process play out and hamas sort of outed the israelis by coming public yesterday with its own agreement, saying don't paint us as the people who are rejecting everything. we're willing to negotiate. we're willing to release the hostages. you just need to show up and finish this deal. >> nbc's richard engle explaining a very complicated situation well to us. thank you so much. >> also, israel wanted 40 hostages back in the deal. hamas was offering 18.

they landed on 33. now we are hearing that hamas that may include the remains of some hostages who have died, to which israel said, no, that's not what we're talking about here. we are a long way from anything that's -- that could be considered workable at this point, yeah. david ignatius, get us up to date based on your reporting about where we are. obviously, the hostages negotiations go on. this is a step, obviously, a positive step as far as the families of the hostages are concerned, the promise of ultimately releasing all of the hostages at the same time. as we've said here, the prospect of hamas staying in power indefinitely in gaza just not a possibility for the overwhelming majority of israelis. where do the negotiations go from here? >> joe, my sense is, like so many negotiations in the middle

east, as this one gets closer to achieving its goal of a final deal, differences between the sides, recourse to fighting israel's attacks on parts of rafah over the last 24 hours become part of the negotiations, the negotiating process. i'm struck by the absolute commitment that president biden has shown to getting this deal done. he kept working at it. he keeps sending his cia director bill burns back. i think from what i hear, bill burns is really acting as the guarantor of this deal, take the united states undertakes to guarantee the basics, the framework that's being negotiated here. the most difficult language, obviously, is about how long this period of ceasefire lasts, is it a permanent end of the war as hamas wants? is it a lull of some weeks,

months, as israel has been willing to concede? the phrase they have come up with, sustainable calm, is an attempt to satisfy both sides. it's classic diplomatic language. it allows both to claim victory in a sense, hamas can say we got a permanent truce. israel says, no, no, no, no, sustainable calm, that's different. my feeling, joe and mika, the thing we need to bear in mind is after everything that happened, israel is not going to settle for a hamas win. anything that really looks like they've capitulated to hamas demands isn't going to fly. they want the hostages back. it's a demand of the israeli public that's deep, that netanyahu can't ignore. but perhaps that phrase sustainable calm will be sufficiently vague that israelis can sell it to their public. i don't think anyone should assume that israeli operations to destroy what remains of hamas

military power are not going to continue over the next months. not necessarily over the next weeks, but that part of the war isn't over, and won't be. i don't think israel's prepared to see hamas come back as the dominant governing force in gaza. >> jonathan lemire, we know president biden had a call with benjamin netanyahu yesterday. what do we know about what came out of that call? >> the president, first of all, stressed the need to get humanitarian aid back into gaza and was able to push prime minister netanyahu to agree to reopen a crossing there that allowed that to resume. he also said that the u.s. maintains its need for the -- want and goal for the hostages to be released and support efforts to do so. he issued another warning for netanyahu against an all-out invasion of rafah. certainly the president stressed we understand the need to get hamas leaders. we have been behind you on that since october 7th. but civilian casualties must be

avoided. israel still has not present add a plan to do so. and that call happened in the hours before this confusion about what ceasefire agreements they may have agreed. to hamas says one agreement. israel seas that's not good enough. that was not part of that call yesterday. they have been in contact about what's next. and now today with this very fraught backdrop the president will be on capitol hill for holocaust commemoration day and he will be speaking about that moment and more broadly about antisemitism. what we saw on college campuses on recent weeks, part of the protests, pro gaza protests spiraled out of control and the surge in antisemitism we have seen across the country and globe in recent years, particularly since october 7th.

and there are domestic considerations for the president as well. david, let's talk about what hans next. there is some reporting this morning in axios and other places, some tension between israel and washington. israeli officials claiming that washington knew about the hamas deal but didn't inform israel and israel was, therefore, caught off guard. i think there is more pressure to richard's point earlier on netanyahu to take some sort of deal or at least hold off the invasion of rafah to let negotiations continue. what more, if anything, can this president do to get netanyahu to listen? >> so, jonathan, i think the hardest part of this is that there are sharp divisions within israel now. there is growing dissent on happiness from some of the senior people in the i israeli defense forces who have been uncomfortable with netanyahu for months. but that's, i'm told, come to a head in the last week. what they want, what they are demanding is a clear plan for how israel gets from here to a

stable gaza. they are not seeing that yet from the netanyahu government. the idf wants, as it pulls its troops back, to be confident it's not going to have to send them in all over again. i have repeated this. for now, i think that's a key element. i do think president biden's personal guarantees through director burns shuttling back and forth between doha and cairo have been a key element in this. when an american president sends his personal emissary and says we guarantee this outcome will be as we describe it, that's the most a president can do. he puts u.s. credibility on the line. i think that has been important in speaking to the israelis. i think biden's call with netanyahu yesterday was a crucial one. he was putting it on the line. the united states needs this end to fighting, needs the ceasefire to work. you have to help us get it.

some things had been said, obviously, to the hamas side through qatar and egypt. so i think we are in this tense final phase of a negotiation. it's one which the president's credibility, his interests as president and future of this region are totally engaged. we will see what he says publicly because that will be a moment which he speaks to the country, not in private to his negotiators. >> yeah. all right. "the washington post" david ignatius, thank you very much. and still ahead, in just one minute, donald trump's criminal trial will pick up again just a short time from now back in new york city. we are going to go over what we learned yesterday as prosecutors focused on the trump organization's paper trail and the judge holds the former president in contempt again. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 60 seconds.

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it is day 13 of donald trump's criminal trial, which resumes later this morning a day after the judge issued his sharpest warning yet of potential jail time for the former president. he continues to violate his gag order. at the start of court yesterday. judge juan merchan found trump in contempt for a tenth time, fining him an additional $1,000. but in his ruling the judge stated, quote, it appears that the $1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. the judge acknowledged jailing trump and how disruptive to the proceedings it would be, quote, the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. you are the former president of the united states and possibly the next president as well. there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me.

but at the end of the day, i have a job to do. so as much as i do not want to propose a jail sanction, i will if necessary. willie. >> and prosecutors definitelied into the documents at the heart of this case. that came in testimony from former trump organization controller jeffrey mcconney and current employee deborah tarasov an accounts payable supervisor and a 24-year veteran of the company. they explained the mechanics of reimbursing former trump attorney and fixer michael cohen for the $130,000 paid to adult film actress stormy dan youls to keep her quiet an alleged affair with donald trump. trump denies the allegations. they describe how the large sums that won't to cohen for the alleged purposes of hush-money payments came directly from donald trump's bank account and for the first time during the trial a check from the alleged scheme was shown in court.

let's bring in former litigator msnbc msnbc legal correspondent lisa linney. you got a front row seat yesterday inside the courtroom. not as splashily when you hear about accounts payable, but important. >> totally important. as understated as what you said, was juan merchan telling donald trump it appears the $1,000 fines are not working as a deterrent. yesterday was an incredibly important day in court and not at all a sensational one because document by document mcconney and tarasov went through the 34 business records alleged here to have been falsified and the prosecutors made them read from the documents so the jury can understand what specifically about each and every one of these documents is allegedly false. for example, michael cohen's 12 invoices all say pursuant to our retainer agreement, here is my

bill for services rendered. what's false about that? there was no retainer agreement. there were no services rendered. similarly, they had to go through the checks and the check stubs. the check stubs, each says that it's pursuant to a retainer. then they had to go through the general business ledger entries that similarly say this is pursuant to a retainer and for legal services. that's not exciting for the jury and you could see there were times their attention waned. but it is the heart and the crux of the charged crime here and perhaps the most important date legally in the trial if not at least the most exciting one. >> and the fact we learned they came directly from donald trump's personal bank accounts and not from the trump organization's bank account and also when tarasov was asked did this go through the legal department at the trump organization, because we're they claim talking about legal retainers. she said, no, and admitted that was up unusual. how damning was the testimony to

donald trump yesterday? >> it was damning to donald trump in a number of ways. not even ways that i think the jury fully appreciates yet, but, hopefully, on closing argument will. one of the things that jeff mcconney said that i thought was hugely damaging was he talked about an episode early on his employment where trump called him in because he was delivering something to trump on a week-to-week basis. trump was on the phone and said, hold on, jeff, you're fired. and he is waiting for mcconney. when he gets off the phone, no, you're not fired but my cash balance went down. why? he explains, i had bills to pay. trump instructs him, you don't just pay the bills as they are tendered to you. you negotiate. and mcconney said, that was a teaching moment for him. remember, if a person is telling you as the person responsible for paying out all of his bills, negotiate everything, it's at odds with that to then have these invoices come in for

$35,000 every month without any explanation, two lines saying pursuant to our retainer agreement, here is my bill for services and expect to be paid $35,000 with no questions asked. that's not who donald trump was and the prosecutors want the jury to understand. >> these are not disgruntled employees. tarasov is still an employee of the trump organization. let's talk about judge merchan. his warning yesterday saying to donald trump in the order, i don't want to put you in jail. but if you keep violating the gag order, clearly $1,000 per violation is not making a accident here. i am going to have to do it. do you think we will reach that point? >> i am hopeful we won't reach that point. juan merchan i compared him on another show a couple weeks ago to the disappointed parental or grandfatherly figure we have that gets quieter the angrier he gets. his tone was of sorrow than anger. he was very understated.

hopefully, he is impressing on the former president, as he said, this is the last thing i want to do, yet, if i have no choice, i will do it because the statute provides him only with two options. either $1,000 per violation or incarceration up to 30 days. he said, point blank, this isn't really making a dent to charge you $1,000 per. the one bright side for donald trump, if you can call it that, is the district attorney had alleged four violations. only one of them, juan merchan found yesterday, was violative of the gag order. two of the alleged violations are about michael cohen. the trump team made some inroads with merchan by showing him that trump statements about cohen were close in time, if not on the same day to statements cohen made about trump on x that were highly inflammatory and they said trump was defending himself against a politicized attack. merchan didn't agree, but he said it was close enough that he couldn't find beyond a reasonable doubt that trump should be held in criminal

contempt. look for trump to test those lines a little bit more, particularly if michael cohen or stormy daniels continues to talk. if he goes after jurors or makes a statement about a different witness, i think juan merchan is a man of his word. next, our next guests share seven oscar nominations. laura linney and ethan hawke to preview their new film straight ahead on morning. ahead on morning

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on saturday, trump, he hosted an event at mar-a-lago for wall street donors, it included a dozen potential running mates, all auditioning to be his number two on the reality competition show so you think you can pence.

only donald trump could end up with a running mate and a cellmate in the same month. among the hopefuls are marco rubio, elise stephanik, kristi noem, who i love that she thinks she still has a shot. i mean, she had a shot. she used it on her dog. >> oh, my god. the executive editor of the "new york times" is pushing back against criticism that the newspaper has received for the coverage of the 2024 election. in an interview, joseph kahn responded to attacks from some on the left who say the "times'" reporting is too critical of president joe biden and could enable donald trump to win back the white house. there are so many things wrong with that. people out there in the world, quote, may decide based on their democratic rights to elect donald trump as president, khan says. it's not the job of the news media to prevent that from

happening. it's the job of joe biden and the people around biden to prevent that from happening, to say that the threats of democracy are so great that the media is going to abandon the central role as a source of impartial information to help people vote. that's essentially saying the news media should become a propaganda arm for a single candidate because we prefer that candidate's agenda. oh, this is so interesting. joining us editor-in-chief of semafor ben smith, the author of the 2023 book out today in paperback "traffic." >> you know, ben, you can go online for five seconds and find examples of "the times" being hammered for being too anti-biden, too anti-trump, too anti-israel, too

anti-palestinian. it's just -- it goes with it, even though it's seen as a center-left newspaper. the goal is to play it straight down the middle. talk about the frustrations that the executive is feeling now. >> it's a moment when democrats really want the media in their corner. you know, a lot of people see this battle over democracy. inside "the new york times" is a sense that during particularly the summer of 2020, they aligned themselves too much with particularly a kind of progressive wing in the democratic party. on account of their staff, the sort of cultural forces and i think kahn sees hem pulling back from excesses in that moment. inconvenient time for joe biden for the "times" to be symbolically focused on itself back from the brink. >> at "the washington post," they said better going to work, not war. it seems to me that even if

readers look at these newspapers and sense that seems like they are going to war against some of the more extreme elements of donald trump's platform, against his future plans, again the editor, people in the newsroom, their job is not to pick sides. their job is to report the facts. of course, in my opinion, because we don't have to play it down the middle, the facts are heinous enough to speak for themselves. >> yeah, i think there is a question of what is exactly does it mean to play it down the middle. you know, is the job of the media to fight for democracy or in a democracy do we have this constrained specific lane we are supposed to stay in. in some sense, what the "times" is deciding is the second option there. >> ben, let's talk about "traffic." the book was out last year. you updated in paperback. it takes us back to the beginning, which to me doesn't

feel that long ago, but i guess it is now, when you were a young buck coming up, and there was this disruption in media and it wasn't just about legacy anymore and it was going to be gawker and handcuff ton post and buzzfeed which you did so much work with and helped to build. how different has it ended up, which is one of the points of your book, than you viewed it when you began? in other words, it was a progressive group of almost new york-based journalists and this chase of traffic and clicks led us to a different place. >> yeah, i wrote the book in 2020. sort of looking back at the era that began with blogs. sounds embarassing to say i was a blogger at the time. it was presumptively at the left, left leaning, and a sense this was the future, this sort of progressive new media. you look back now, that was wrong in two ways. one, the people best able to use these populist tools of, you know, digital media, social media, turned out to be the

right. steve bannon, donald trump. and the other big surprise in writing the book is i to write a chapter about "the new york times," which did emerge in some ways as the winner of that period. coming up, one of our next guests served as israel's ambassador to the united states. long-time diplomat michael loren weighs in on the fight against hamas in gaza and the protests gripping kplej campuses here at home. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." "morning joe.

three-pointer! down it goes! a tie broke with 40 seconds

left, the new york knicks ahead in a thriller at the garden last night. point guard jalen brunson, the all-star notched his fourth consecutive playoff game with 40 or more points. he 43 last night, including 21 in the fourth quarter. the knicks a 121-117 victory over the indiana pacers in the opener of their second-round series. game two tomorrow night at madison square garden. back page of "the post" this morning, the three nova knicks, combining for 92 points when you put josh hart in there as well. they were trailing most of that game. it was dicey. man, the garden came alive there at the end. >> yeah, that's when i think the pacering going to regret slipping away. they led most of the way. a chance to steal game one on the road, put the pressure on new york, seize control of the series. and they couldn't close out. and jalen brunson, credit to him and his villanova teammates. he has been so good in these

playoffs. willie, you weigh in on this. some knicks fans suggesting he is a top five knick of all time that. seems premature, but does have patrick ewing and bernard wing and walt "clyde" frazier, to name a few. there is no overstating what he did in the playoffs. they are shorthanded. he is carrying them. a big win. >> he is high on the list. let's see how deep they go. if he brings them a title, the first since 1973, he climbs. they were talking about michael jordan and jerry west in terms of consecutive 40-point games in the playoffs last night. he is doing it and doing it so consistently. 21 in the fourth quarter putting them on his back. game two tomorrow night. how about the story out west? the defending champion nuggets on the ropes a little bit here. the timberwolves dominating denver on their home court again last night. anthony edwards, karl-anthony towns, scored 27 points each.

t-wolves 6-0 in the playoffs with a 106-80 blowout of the nuggets in game two of the second-round series. minnesota can sweep denver with wins friday and sunday night on their home court. so, you know, you never want to count out the nuggets. but losing two on your home floor gets you pretty close. >> yeah. i suspect the nuggets won't get swept. they are the defending champs. they have the best player in the league in nikola jokic. minnesota did this last night without rudy gobert, yet suffocating defense, holding denver to 80 points, and anthony randolph is about to be the face of the nba. 22 years old. he is an extraordinary young talent. they are stunned at the -- to beat denver like that at home. they will face, the winner of that series gets the winner of the oklahoma city/dallas series, which kicks off tonight, as does the celtics and cavaliers, game

one in boston tonight. kristaps porzingis out, unclear when he is coming back. celtics favored in that series. should be a good couple of days of basketball. how are you feeling about the knicks? >> good. i wasn't feeling great for three and a half quarters and then they turned it on. there is nowhere else like it when the garden get to a playoff game. the rangers have there tonight. the place is rocking. relieved. put it that way. >> yeah, and this is, obviously, deeply premature. it was pointed out yesterday, we are potentially on track for a boston versus new york conference finals in the nba and nhl. the bruins and rangers, knicks and celtics very much alive right now. that would be something. test our friendship. >> it did cross my mind. i dare not say it outloud. we will see what happens. coming up, back to politics. marjorie taylor greene could be backing off her threat to remove speaker mike johnson. we have new reporting about their long meeting yesterday on

capitol hill. "morning joe" will be back in a moment. moment ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪

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was that it had more to do with the changes and a kind of direction and fluidity. this is done by hand. this is the way sculptures have been made for centuries, as they say. normally, if you are real artist, i guess, this would be smoothed over and it would look like those. but i liked it this way. so we left it. and i finished before any of the other artists because i haven't cut off the gates and i haven't smoothed the surfaces. >> that was trailblazing sculpture and painter frank stella with self-deprecating humor in a 2019 tour of one of his new york studios. on saturday, after more than six decades of pushing the

boundaries of artistic expression, stella died at the age of 87. joining us to reflect on his legacy is charles desantis, president of the san francisco art institute legacy foundation and founder of the kibera art institute in nairobi. great to have you back, charles. when did frank stella break out? give us a sense of his background. >> he is not dissimilar to richard sarah. first off, i am excited to be talking about such a giant. he is an italian immigrant. the oldest of three. he lived most of his life in new york city and he was born in maldin, massachusetts. he had a had a wonderful education. he went to andover. he also went to princeton where he was very influenced by his education there in history and painting. he is just the monster.

he's the monster in the field of what i would call artistic disruption. he's an artist disrupter. he really pushed the boundaries. he really fought abstract expressionism. he didn't like the concept of people having to really figure out what was being said. he coined the phrase what you see is what you see in his art. it's very true. if you look at the piece oh on the screen now, what you see is what you see. it's what it is. it didn't have any really meaning outside of this, right? when you see this piece now, jasper johns was one of his inspirations. he really achieved more than any artist that i think of in our contemporary time as he pushed the boundaries. he was constantly the one who

did that. very early on in his life at the age of 33, he was the youngest to have a retrospective at the moma in new york. he started early and ended strong. he was 87, he died eight days before he was going to be 88. there's something interesting about that for me as i think through numbers. some of his work, like the ones on the screen, he became very large and sculptural. started flat, grew it. pretty amazing. i think of amelia, your mom, and her big work as well. >> some of the paintings we were showing were part of the black paintings, the series he did pre 1960. then we showed some of the

protractor series post 1960. >> he shook up the world and had abstract art in a minimalist perspective. he just changed that framework. he was honored by many artists that he was around, ellsworth kelly and jackson pollock, the big ones. he was part of that with them. he was definitely inspired by them, but he also really fought the abstract expressionist movement and wanted it simple. just look at it. you don't need to take much out of it. it's just what it is. for me, that's kind of how he evolved his art. as he got older, he got more colorful. if you were looking at like

jasper's dilemma of the protractor experience that was the core of how he looked at his art. these are amazing, these two here. they do harken back to other artists. jasper johns and his targets. they were not dissimilar, flat, not a lot of meaning unless you put meaning into it. but he really made a legacy difference about how the art world focused on its shift into the contemporary minimalist movement for those artists who were in that genre. he is the father of this arena in the art world. >> it's amazing how many different mediums he worked with as well. thank you for helping us remember the legacy of frank stella.

charles desantis, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> thank you. coming up, it's another day off the campaign trail for donald trump. instead, he's back in a new york city courtroom, accused of paying off adult film actress stormy daniels, whom we just learned will testify today just a short time from now. a live report on this breaking news from lower manhattan is straight ahead on "morning joe." "

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hush-money trial. stormy daniels will testify today, two sources tell nbc news. this comes as yesterday the judge threatened the former president with the possibility of jail time if he violates his gag order again. it comes as prosecutors expect to finish presenting their case in about two weeks. nbc news correspondent laura jarrett reports. >> reporter: this morning, tensions rising at donald trump's hush-money trial coverup trial as the former president is held in criminal contempt for now the tenth time. mr. trump forced to pay another $1,000 soon, this time because he criticized the jury. while the judge gave his sharpest warning yet, threatening jail time if mr. trump continues to break the gag order barring attacks on witnesses and jurors. judge merchan added, the last thing i want to do is put you in

jail. you are the former president of the united states and possibly the next president, but at the end of the day i have a job to do. this as the state pivots away from the more salacious evidence of the effort to bury stories that could have damaged mr. trump's chances at the presidency by paying women hush money, which he denies. now to the charges he faces for allegedly doctoring his books to coverup how he paid off michael cohen. >> is michael cohen a liar? >> i'm not allowed to answer that question. this has never happened in this country before. >> reporter: two longtime trump organization employees on the stand monday walking the jury through cohen's invoices, checks mr. trump signed repaying cohen in monthly installments and

internal ledger entries for, quote, legal expenses, all created under a phoney agreement. the defense team sought to emphasize neither witness can directly tie mr. trump to how the repayments for recorded. >> joining us on set is danny cevallos. stormy daniels, according to her attorney, will testify in this hush-money trial. we know her significance to the larger story, but how significant a prosecution witness might she be in this case? >> she's significant in terms of star factor. we're all interested in hearing what she has to say. i'm not even that sure the prosecution would need stormy daniels from an evidence

perspective, because they've got all elements of the transaction, the michael cohen payment to stormy daniels and now yesterday a lot of the reimbursement to michael cohen for that payment to stormy daniels. they got a lot of the testimony i think they needed from keith davidson about that transaction to stormy daniels. obviously daniels is not even involved in the reimbursement to cohen from trump. in terms of splash factor, huge today. everybody wants to hear what stormy daniels will say. frankly, i think she represents something of a risk to the prosecution. they don't have a ton of control over here, so they must be concerned. i'm rather surprised they didn't try to get all the evidence they needed without having to call stormy daniels. if they wanted to make a mark, the people, they're going to make it today. this is certainly a witness everybody wants to hear from. >> donald trump posted a moment ago on truth social and then i'm told quickly took it down, not a direct attack on stormy daniels by name, but an attack on the

court because he says his attorneys weren't told she was coming today and they were blindsided by this. is it a surprise that stormy daniels would show up today? do they have to announce ahead of time that she'd be there? the former president seems upset that she's there today? >> yes. ordinarily as a matter of civility the prosecution lets the defense know in advance who's on the list and in what order. in this case, they haven't done that because of the concern donald trump would, oh i don't know, go to social media and attack some of the witnesses. here it seems like he's already leaning that way. the prosecution in this case has withheld the exact order and donald trump is obviously complaining about that. he has a point on some level. usually defendants have an idea who's coming next. but the reason he isn't given a list in advance is because of what he's done on social media.

so he has himself to blame for that problem that his defense attorneys now face. i'm sympathetic to defense counsel and all the problems the defendant is creating for them, not the least of which is having to do gag order defense in the first place when i'm sure they'd much rather be preparing for trial. >> the judge said i don't want to send you to jail, but i will. please stop violating the gag order. let's add joyce vance to the conversation. the significance within the prosecution's argument, not just that it's stormy daniels, but how significant a witness is she to the prosecution's story? >> well, i think danny is absolutely correct when he says she's a witness the prosecution

doesn't control. you never love being in that position as a prosecutor. she's essential in this sense. if stormy daniels didn't testify, the jury would wonder why, why didn't they hear from the central figure in this case. in some ways, you have to put her on and let her tell her story or at least part of it. she's essential in that she too corroborates michael cohen. we've seen details about the $130,000 payment. she's the witness who talks about how it comes to her and why the payment is made to her. in that sense, she's one of those witnesses the prosecution needs to make sure that they're checking all the boxes to make certain that the jury doesn't have any reasonable doubt at the end of the case. >> joyce, i'm just curious what you think about donald trump's post that he put up and put down. he's not stupid. i just wonder if he was hoping to do just enough to get the

prosecution to side-bar again about the gag order or whatever to try and put off whatever is happening today, maybe a little triggered by the news that stormy daniels is going to take the stand. i don't believe that he would put up a post and not know that he was violating the gag order. >> his team probably has a paralegal or someone on the team assigned to keep an eye on his social media for just this sort of emergency. apparently it didn't take them very long to tell him to delete the post, but i think it suggests that having stormy daniels on the witness stand will be challenging for the former president, and whether or not he'll be able to maintain his demeanor in the courtroom or do something that gives rise to more serious conversations about the gag order.

>> i have the truth social post here, screenshotted before it was deleted. he called the judge crooked, highly conflicted taking away his first amendment rights. can you just preview for us? this is a big-name witness. walk us through what today is going to look like, what sort of questions we should anticipate. >> i think this is a fact witness like any other fact witness in a case. of course, the reality is that the facts are pretty salacious here and there will be a lot of people hanging on every word that stormy daniels has to say. we'll see prosecutors lead her through the details we've heard from some other witnesses in

part, this idea that she had a story to sell, that it happened on the eve of trial as the "access hollywood" tape was creating an absolute debacle inside of the trump campaign. she was represented by michael avenatti. it turned out she was very unhappy about that representation. i don't think we'll hear prosecutors go very far into the details of that situation, although avenatti himself has suggested he might be willing to testify for trump. it's possible some of that will have bearing, but it feels a lot like a side show. i think this will be limited to the facts. the big question is how do you handle stormy daniels if you're the defense? if you push too hard, she's shown in the past she's someone who can respond, someone who can handle herself under pressure. she may be one of those witnesses where the defense has to tread very lightly, because there's really nothing to gain

from cross examining her. the facts are the facts, and there's very little that will alter that. >> this is the first time stormy daniels will be face to face with donald trump since all of this blew up and became public over the last several years. some strange moments in court with hope hicks weeping in court about what she had to do for donald trump. if you are the defense team, how do you handle stormy daniels? >> you have to be so careful. even the prosecution, i think, is probably a little nervous about what stormy daniels will do. here's what i see the real risk to the defense is that you get up and you cross examine one like stormy daniels, who's a larger-than-life personality, who's probably looking to dunk on defense counsel if they ask a bad question. if she can elicit a laugh or give a funny quip, i can see the

judge saying, well, defense counsel, you opened the door. there's nothing judges like more than to tell defense counsel you opened the door, you asked the question, you have yourself to blame. you've got to be so careful with stormy daniels. your questions have to be perfectly crafted to elicit only a yes or no, because you don't want to give her the opportunity to give a speech on the stand. the judge will stop her if she does, but this is a very dangerous witness for the defense, and they have to tread really carefully. we do have other news to get to this hour. israeli defense forces have announced they have taken operational control of the gaza side of the rafah crossing. tanks and troops entered the southern gaza city overnight. this comes amid uncertainty

surrounding a potential cease-fire deal. nbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest. >> reporter: israeli troops stormed into rafah overnight, video showing tanks crashing over a sign at the entrance of the city. israel took over the gazan side of the rafah border crossing with egypt, a key transit point for aid as hamas used the area to launch a deadly attack on israeli troops over the weekend. civilians were warned to leave, but given little time to do it. our crew filmed how the bombing started just hours after israeli's evacuation notice. palestinian medics say more than 20 people were killed in the overnight operation, including children. the bodies today handed over to their families. hamas says it has agreed to a plan to end all of this and send nbc news the full text of a

four-page document in which hamas promises to release all the hostages it is holding to achieve, a quote, sustainable calm with israel. hamas says the plan would be implemented in three phases, each 42 days long. in phase one, israel and hamas would cease hostilities and hamas would free 33 hostages, including all women, hostages over 50 and sick and wounded civilians. in exchange, israeli troops would withdraw from densely populated areas in gaza, release palestinian prisoners, allow more aid into gaza and give palestinians freedom of movement within the gaza strip. during the next two phases, hamas would release all remaining hostages. israeli troops would leave gaza completely, and a three to five-year internationally supported program to rebuild gaza would begin. the document lists qatar, egypt,

the u.n. and the united states as guarantors. >> we're currently reviewing that response. >> the israeli government responded, saying hamas' terms do not meet its necessary requirements, but israel is nonetheless sending a team of negotiators to cairo to discuss it. >> we have retired four star army general barry mccaffrey. just curious where you think things stand now in terms of a possible cease-fire. it just feels like it's a long way off. >> well, i would think within a month there will be some sustainable cease-fire going on in gaza. both sides are losing badly. israel and the information war and hamas with their final

battalions and senior leadership in rafah. at the end of these negotiations, there's always painful last-minute bait and switch going on. we ought to recognize that what israel is trying to do tactically is get all the hostages, dead or alive, returned. strategically they're not going to accept hamas again governing gaza. the longer term, i would be very pessimistic there will be any sustainable peace, never mind a two-state solution. >> is there anything about this proposal that gives you hope? >> not much. i agree. this is a proposal basically for hamas to emerge from the tunnels to reclaim control over gaza, to

reorganize, to rearm and mount the next assault against israel. its leaders say they're going to do it 50 times, 10,000 times until israel is destroyed. so israel cannot agree to what hamas wants, which is a permanent cease-fire under an international umbrella that will enable hamas to do just that. israel has to agree to a situation where it can end hamas' rule and open the door to a peaceful and prosperous gaza. at the same time, israel has to get its hostages back, 132 hostages we know are there. we hope most of them are alive. the only way israel can do this is by maintaining some element of pressure on hamas. the operations in rafah so far have been limited in scope. hopefully that will meet the requirement for the biden administration that says israel can maintain surgical operations in gaza, but not take over rafah

completely. i think israel would like to avoid as much as possible a head-on collision with the biden administration and try to stay on the same page as much as possible. at the end of the day, the goal has to remain of uprooting hamas and restoring hostages to freedom. >> can you speak to the tactical challenge of going back into rafah for the idf, a place where we know hamas terrorists are living in tunnelled underground, holding hostages underground. they've prepared for this moment as israel tries to encourage 100,000 gazans to move out ahead of the operation. how difficult is this for israel and its army? >> it's remarkable how few casualties the idf has sustained. i think they're up to a couple thousand killed and wounded. part of that is because they've used to the extent they could

precision heavy weapons to reduce these strongholds. at the end of the day, you have 1.4 million in the rafah area, and you're trying to get in with an armored brigade and special forces troops to try to get at the senior leadership, which is underground. the civilian population will be in great peril unless they're moved out of the area. again, these are massive throngs of suffering civilians. israel has had 80,000 some odd refugees up in the north under constant fire from hezbollah forces and maybe 100,000 along the gaza strip. israel also has a massive internal refugee problem.

this is a tragedy that won't have a great outcome. >> the u.s. has made clear to israel that it would support a limited operation into rafah that targeted simply hamas terrorists, but the president has warned the prime minister time and again to not take on a full-on operation for risk of massive civilian casualties, but also for further turning the world and the region, in particular, against israel. to this point in the conflict, the prime minister has only somewhat listened to the president's advice. what do you think he'll do now? >> i'm not a spokesman for the government, but i'm sure the prime minister is taking note of the president's concerns, his reservations and trying to meet them to the best degree possible that are confident with israel's basic security interests. that is, again, ridding gaza of hamas and securing the release

of the hostages. we had four soldiers killed by a hamas barrage on our side of the border, which evokes october 7th again. it just underlines the impossibility of maintaining the status quo. by the way, hamas is also shelling the crossovers which the aid goes through so pressure will increase on israel to agree to a permanent cease-fire. hamas is evil, but it's not stupid. we have to end this situation. israel tried to meet the president's concerns. at the end of the day, a sovereign country faced with an impossible security situation both internally, but also along our own borders in the south and with these hostages, just an intolerable situation that we must address. >> thank you very much for being

on this morning. coming up, we're going to get a live report from outside the courthouse in lower manhattan as donald trump's criminal trial resumes in just a few moments. the news that broke this morning, adult film actress stormy daniels is expected to take the stand. also this hour, award winning actress ethan hawke and laura linney discuss their new film. linney dcuisss their new film

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welcome back. donald trump just walked into the courthouse for another day in his criminal trial and of course the breaking news this morning that adult film actress stormy daniels is going to take the stand. he just did his regular spiel where he spoke to the cameras, attacked all the tv networks,

said that he has spoken to many legal scholars and that everybody he sees says there's no case. and then he went into the courthouse. house speaker mike johnson is set to meet with far-right congresswoman marjorie taylor greene today as she continues to threaten to call for a vote to call for his ouster over his support for sending military aid to ukraine. that is the same mechanism a handful of republicans use to remove former house speaker kevin mccarthy from his position in october. but unlike last time, house democratic leaders have said they would provide johnson the votes to save his speakership should he need them. following their meeting yesterday, greene ignored questions from reporters about

whether she was backing down from her threat. >> we had a lengthy constructive meeting. i understand the frustration. i would really like to advance much more of our conservative policy on a daily basis here, but the reality is we are working with the smallest majority in u.s. history with a one-vote margin. it makes it very difficult for us, to use a football metaphor, to throw touchdown passes on every single play. >> so take us inside that room. long meeting, they were in there for a while. what are they trying to hash out here? >> i think we're seeing the limitations of the maga movement. it is quite clear since ukraine funding passed that marjorie taylor greene does not have the

votes to force a motion to vacate and do what they did to speaker mccarthy all over again. there were a few requests greene made to johnson yesterday in that meeting that went for almost two hours. no further aid for ukraine. they asked for johnson to adhere to the hastert rule, which is the unofficial agreement that the majority would only bring votes to the floor where there was majority support for that bill, which is not what happened with the ukraine funding. they want to defund the special counsel probes into donald trump. they've also asked for enforcement of the massey rule which would automatically cut spending if there was no agreement on the proposed deadline. these are four different things green and massey have diminishing power to enforce, especially as democrats are now saying if they do bring a motion to vacate, they're going to support mike johnson and bail him out here. >> you've touched on it.

i guess the question is, does speaker johnson need to give them any of those things they're demanding? he doesn't feel the threat necessarily to marjorie taylor greene to his job, does he at this point? >> no. you can tell based on the rather personal comments he made towards greene last week. he lobbed probably the most cutting insult he could say to her, bless her heart. he said she wasn't a serious lawmaker. but he does realize he has a one-vote majority. if he wants to get anything done, he does need greene or massey's support. you're seeing greene try to back herself out of a corner and maybe gain some leverage with a speaker. >> not clear if he's willing to help her save face.

thank you. coming up next, they have a combined seven oscar nominations between them and one cameo in the latest taylor swift video. award winning actors laura linney and ethan hawke are here to talk about their latest project, next. talk about theirt project, next. (tony hawk) skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric.

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dear god, i want to write a novel, a good novel. >> i don't think you need to suffer in order to introduce them to the unusual way your mind works. >> you been writing any cute stories lately? i read that last one you sent your mama. you always left kind of a bad taste in my mouth. >> you weren't supposed to eat it. >> you might consider being a little more friendly. >> i try to turn the other

cheek. [indiscernible] >> dear god, please, i can never seem to escape myself unless i'm writing. strangely, i'm never more myself than when i'm writing. >> that is a look at the new movie "wildcat" which follows the life of flannery o'connor. diagnosed with lupus, she was forced to move back to her mother's farm in georgia, where she lived until she died at the age of 39. as her health deteriorated, her writing flourished. quote, she writes with blazing skill about the most appalling horrors. joining us now, the movies director and cowriter ethan hawke whose daughter maya plays

flannery. great to see you. let's start with people who may know the name flannery o'connor but may not know more about her. >> my first reaction to being on your show is how proud i am to see her picture on national television, because she had a ferocious mind. she was an incredibly devout woman. her spiritual discipline led her to some powerful insights. she was diagnosed with lupus, which killed her father, so she was pretty sure she was going to die at a young age. she produced some blistering, amazing art. i thought it would be fun to make a movie. >> why is her legacy so powerful? why does she resonate to you?

>> there's nobody else exactly like her. she didn't write about heros. it's very hard to find the good person in her stories. her stories are upsetting. you often don't think you like them when you read them, but then you want to read them again. she talks about hard truths. i think that's why it's lasted. >> laura, your character, regina, and many others you play which we can explain how you sort of turn up inside the stories, why does she so significant to the story? >> i think regina sort of helped sort of define how isolated and unique flannery is. they sort of set the context of here is two catholics in the south, which was not usual, so they're sort of isolated because of that. regina ran a dairy farm on her own, because she was widowed. women did not do that. she then sent her child to

yankee land, north to be educated. that's another thing that did not happen in the south. so you have these two women, one who's a little more conventional than the other, but they're living very unusual lives in a very different cultural context. >> you got to see up close this man direct his extraordinary daughter. what was it like to watch them? >> it was such a gift. i've known ethan for such a long time. >> i've known laura longer than i've known maya. >> that's probably true. >> it's very true. >> she's a force. it was a privilege and a gift to work together, but we also knew we wanted to do something serious that worth our time. we had all these amazing people

in the movie and working on it. so we had to use the intimacy that we both care about this woman and this story and we wanted to channel both of our love for this, but we also new it wasn't the dad/daughter show. the smartest thing i ever did was ask laura to be involved in it, because she and maya got along like a house on fire. they're playing these two characters, but the movie is also exploring flannery's imagination. she didn't do much in her life. she fed the chickens and she wrote. so the movie is really a meditation on imagination. as we explore flannery's imagination, her mother keeps appearing as different aspects and different characters. she's healing herself and talking to herself through these stories. so i knew what i was asking maya and laura to do as actors is

extremely difficult and maya needed a partner to take her to the deep end of the pool. >> there was something to deeply inspiing that this movie was her idea. she hired her father. it's so refreshing from my generation. as difficult as the world is right now, these young artists are not afraid, they create their own work. >> it was inspiring for us. our first day of filming on the front porch of this whole farmhouse, watching them run lines. we kind of looked at each other, wow, what is happening? >> let's watch some of this.

>> well. i don't understand why you don't want to write something people would like to read. it's not exactly harper's bazaar, is it? do you really think you're using the talent god gave you if you don't write something that a lot of people like? >> that is a literary magazine. >> do they pay? >> yes, they pay. they don't pay a lot. the magazine helps establish a

writer's reputation. >> reputations don't buy groceries. >> as you can see, well written, well directed and beautifully acted. the new film is "wildcat." it is in the select theaters now and nationwide this friday. ethan hawke and laura linney, thank you so much. coming up next, we'll go live to lower manhattan for donald trump's criminal hush-money trial with testimony today from stormy daniels. "morning joe" is coming right back. tormy daniels. "morning joe" is coming right back moving forward with node-positive breast cancer. my fear of recurrence could've held me back. but i'm staying focused. and doing more to prevent recurrence. verzenio is specifically for hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence versus hormone therapy alone. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection.

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that on the stand right now is a woman by the name of sally franklin. she's from penguin random house. this is a prosecution witness. they are going through a number of books that were put together in donald trump's name published decades ago. let's bring in joyce vance and danny cevallos. any sense of what this witness brings? >> this witness is going to authenticate books by trump. don't expect her to have any explosive testimony. the prosecution has followed a pattern of marquee-name witnesses and usually authentication witnesses and

then back to the high-profile witnesses, which it looks like we are going to get today in the form of stormy daniels. a lot of this is also logistics for the prosecution. they may even go out of order on their own list based on witness availability. during a trial, it is a fluid thing and the prosecution has been to be able to pivot depending on witness availability. >> joyce, i'm just reading the information that's coming out from inside the courtroom. it looks like they're making some parameters for how they can talk about any alleged sexual activity, i guess, between the witness and the former president. what do you make of this? >> yeah. i think this was to be expected. the defense doesn't want any conversation about sex. the prosecution does. they told the judge that they

absolutely had to be in a position to elicit not the details, but the fact that it occurred and perhaps the circumstances. they're entitled to do that, because this is part of the origin story for the case. judge merchan noted there might be some credibility issues with stormy daniels, although he seemed inclined to let the prosecution go that far, perhaps no further. >> danny, we've got the details of what the prosecutors are discussing on the screen to your left here of what should not be mentioned in court when stormy daniels finally takes the stand. stormy daniels doesn't have a whole lot to lose by just describing everything she saw and is alleged to have done with donald trump. what kind of witness do you expect her to be today? >> if publicity is an economic benefit to stormy daniels, this is her shining moment. there's reason to believe she

might use this to do a little flame throwing to get her name in the headlines, because doing so helps her. this is a witness that probably has both sides very nervous. look at the debating going on in advance of her testimony. they're looking to control what she says, which is an exercise in futility, because when she takes the stand she may respond to a question in a way that's totally unexpected. when that happens, the best the judge can do is maybe admonish her, maybe instruct the jury to forget they heard it, but that's like asking to unring a bell if she says something outrageous. there's plenty of reason parame parameters as they set for stormy daniels, stormy daniels is going to do what stormy daniels is going to do. >> and the prosecution already conceded in court this morning, these details will be salacious, so the defense say, let's leave out the specific details of what

is alleged to have happened here. let's go to lower manhattan, outside the courthouse, rehema ellis is standing by. rehema, what do we expect to see today when stormy daniels arrives? >> reporter: a lot of people watching her, i would say, willie, because this is one of the star witnesses that people have been talking about for the duration of this trial. and even before it began. and before she even could get on to the witness stand, forgive me if i'm repeating things because i wasn't able to hear your conversation just a few moments ago, but even before she is called to take the stand, there was an objection by the prosecution saying that there was no need to have this witness come in, because she is not -- does not have anything to do with the books and the record keeping and the defense said, again, we want to renew our objection to this witness testifying today, about any details of any sexual acts, saying that she -- they believe it would be unduly prejudicial

and there is no reason to be coming in and talking about a case that is focused en books and records. then the judge said, in reference to the sexual act, anything more than what we have had as far as talk about sex and then the prosecution says, your honor, this seems to have been fully briefed by the defense, the details are important to go to her, meaning stormy daniels' credibility. we know details might be salacious, it is significant to tell the story and is very important for us, the full conversation is important, and how she ended up having a sexual act with him. the prosecution goes on to say, the details of how she ended up having a sexual encounter. and vince says, there will be no descriptions of genitalia or anything, but it is important to elicit, for us to elicit, she had sex with him and how she felt about it. after that, judge merchan said, i agree with you, and she's got credibility issues. a lot of people may have

credibility issues here, if you've been watching this, including another star witness who is expected to be called and that would be michael cohen. but this is the person that people are really going to be looking at today, willie, to find out what does she have to offer about her alleged encounter with donald trump, we should be very clear on this that donald trump denied having any connection with this woman whatsoever and all the allegations that the prosecution has brought against him about filing false business records. willie? >> and he will be face to face with her in a new york city courtroom later today. nbc's rehema ellis outside the courthouse in lower manhattan. thanks so much. joyce vance, same question to you, that i just put to danny about the witness that stormy daniels may be. what should you expect of someone who may be unexpected when she testifies? >> yeah, you know, stormy daniels was in some prior litigation with donald trump and he got a significant judgment

against her that she still owes on. so i think danny's absolutely correct. when he says she is unpredictable, she may have an axe to grind, but the judge will, i think, direct her very sharply, the first time she strays from a question, if she does. she's required to respond to the question. she is not permitted to make narrative statements and if she does stray off that path, the judge will strike her comments from the record, he will instruct the jury to disregard them. i'm a little bit more confident than danny is that juries do appreciate those sorts of instructions, and set aside the comments that they're told they can't consider when they deliberate. so the prosecution will have prepared her for this. and told her she must limit herself to answering the questions, that they don't own stormy daniels, they don't control her, their hope is that they'll get a tight narrative, and, of course, the problem that

the prosecution, that the people face in this case is tieing donald trump to the crimes that he's charged with. that's not the subject of the testimony stormy daniels will give, but they will hope that she will talk about what was in his mind, what was in her mind, and that will help to support the testimony that is yet to come. >> so, joyce, i'm trying to think of how exactly to ask you this, but how important is, since they were making those parameters, the sexual nature to their relationship, i guess i ask because if the defense denies it, and she needs to provide some sort of descriptional proof, and she's not allowed to do that, does it matter? does the sexual nature of the relationship matter in this case? >> yeah, i mean, it really does. this is the sort of issue that always makes people uncomfortable in a trial

setting. it happens more frequently than not that cases do involve some sort of a salacious detail like this. and people try to tread lightly to avoid offending the sensibilities of the jury. but the reality is that donald trump's credibility is on the line here, he has denied and his lawyers in their opening statements said that it wasn't true, that none of the prosecution's case in this regard was true. so, daniels will be entitled to talk about that relationship. i think what the judge will avoid is unnecessary granular detail, but we will hear her version of what happened. >> okay. msnbc legal analyst joyce vance, thank you very much, for joining us this morning and our coverage will continue. ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart pick up the coverage after a quick final break. pick up the coverage after a quick final break. >> tech: at safelite, we'll take care of fixing your windshield. but did you know we can take care of your insurance claim? that means less stress for you.

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