be sure to tune in tomorrow for much more with brittney griner. how did you process just the idea of spending that much time in a foreign person? how aware were you there was a campaign building back home to

free you? what do you make of the fact that after attempting to at least verbally say he was going to compete to get you out of russia, donald trump then turns on you? >> that is tonight's the reidout. inside was jen psaki starts now. today was day 12 of trump's criminal trial and it started with yet another hearing on his repeated and flagrant attempts and violations of his gag order, which was put in place because he can't seem to help himself from attacking the judge, the jury, or potential witnesses. today, judge juan merchan ruled trump violated that order for the 10th time. this time for cummins he made during an interview late last month when he attacked the integrity of the jury that will determine his fate. the judge again found trump in contempt of court and he find the express and $1000.00,

bringing the total up to 10 grand. judge juan merchan said he was prepared to go further. you want if donald trump does not stop violating his order, he will be left with no choice but to consider jail time as a punishment. judge juan merchan made it very clear he does not take that threat lately, calling it a last resort. he also said, "mr. trump, it is important to understand the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. you are the former president of the united states and possibly the next president as well." now, despite that, you might be sitting at home thinking finally someone is going to put this guy in jail. and, you would not be alone in feeling that way. no question. here's the thing, this may also be exactly what trump wants. his whole message is that he is the victim, he is aggrieved, he is the victim of a two tiered system of justice is. his campaign is fundraising of the possibility that he could be put in jail. in his mind, that would only keep him able to make the argument that he is the victim of the system. but, for all of trump's whining about a so-called rigged system against an, it is worth

remembering if he was any other criminal defendant who willfully violated an order from the judge 10 times, he would almost certainly be sitting in a cell on rikers island already. he's not. after that hearing, we heard testimony from the longtime comptroller, controller of the trump organization, 700 now incarcerated chief financial officer, allen weisselburg. the testimony cut to the heart of what the case is about, the legal case. donald trump is not on trial for allegedly having an affair with a adult film star, as salacious as that is. he is on trial for falsifying business records to cover up the $130,000 in hush money he paid her in order to prevent the news from getting out to the public in the weeks before and election. they don't exactly how that happened. the biggest question the

defense raised so far in this case is if michael cohen pater stormy daniels 130 grand to cover up the affair with trump, why was michael cohen will reimburse more than $400,000.00 return? thanks to some financial documents presented as evidence today, we learned exactly how that came to be the case. a quick word of advice to all you would-be felons out there. if you are planning on taking part in a criminal conspiracy, i would definitely suggest not taking handwritten notes outlining the entire plan. but, that seems to be effective what happened here. first up is this document. a bank statement for the $130,000.00 payment, which was helpfully annotated by allen weisselburg, a man who is clearly not a mastermind since he is sitting in jail as we speak. according to the notes, another $50,000.00 was added on top 40 payments to a company for "tech services," and that total

was grossed up, a practice in which the trump organization overpaid michael cohen to cover his tax liabilities. another $60,000.00 was added on top as a bonus, apparently for a job well done. that brings us to $420,000.00, which was repaid to michael cohen in installments of $35,000.00 over the course of a year, reimbursements that, on paper, claim to be a legal retainer. good job buying a negative story that may have hurt me in the election. good job, we are paying a retainer for that. for good measure, we also have this separate committee, this time apparently written by jeffrey mcconney in which he does the same math on the official trump letterhead. on the trump letterhead. seems oftentimes these days, you simply can't make this stuff up. we also have a number of email chains showing that most of those reimbursement checks for michael cohen were sent directly to the white house so that trump could sign them personally. all of this we learned before election day, just before lunch today. after the break, we heard from a woman who worked in the accounting department under

jeffrey mcconney and allen weisselburg. she was the one who labeled those checks as legal expenses. that was all just one day of testimony. there is still a lot more to come in this case, which prosecutors now say is halfway finished, at least for their part. with michael cohen and stormy daniels still yet to testify, it is going to be a pretty interesting couple of weeks, to say the least. the southern district attorney of new york, where he led prosecutions against white collar criminals and he joined me now. i am not a lawyer, i tried to summarize what we learned today. i tried to summarize, i talked to a lot of smart people. i tried to summarize what we learned today. did i miss anything, did i get anything wrong? >> that was a pretty good summary. what you heard today was testimony that was not so dramatic. not as dramatic and salacious as some of the testimony we have heard before. we are certain to occur in the

coming days but it goes to the core of the basic criminal charge here, which is falsification of business records. and, i think based on what happened today and how uninspiring the cross- examination was because the documents largely speak for themselves, the prosecution has basically proven the basic case, which is falsification of business records, which people can argue is or is not the crime of the century. it is a misdemeanor and the new york law that convinces it as a misdemeanor and we can argue and see how the evidence comes in with respect to the next phase, which is whether that could be accelerated into a family if it was done for the purposes of concealing or furthering some other crime, election law crime or tax crime. the fundamental case, the elements of which were laid out, you know, crystallized form today in court i think were made out. you have the representation that these things were legal fees based on everything of legal services. you don't have any document and

that effect, you don't have any detailed business records as you and i were saying before we started recording today. the bane of the existence of any practicing lawyer, and i am a practicing lawyer, once again, is to do detailed records of how you are spending your time and why the client needs to pay you what you are charging the client appeared >> there is no detail of that period, there is zero. every lawyer in america have to do that. i have never worked on a matter for any claim where there wasn't a formalized agreement and an understanding of what you could pay for and why. you have none of that here. you also have as you mentioned, the fact that michael cohen was not just paid for the reimbursement. lawyers all the time, we have photocopying fees, we have binding fees, we have other fees we have to get reimbursed for. we don't get paid double for that. >> which is his tax rate, by the way. >> michael cohen stepped up for the team, took a hit for the donald trump fraud team and paid out of his own money based on a home equity line of credit, money for the hush money for this person and that was after taxes. in order to make him whole, he

had to be paid not just the reimbursement amount but also an amount that was pretax would make him, put him in the same position as he was in otherwise. that is not a legal fee. that is not how it works. >> what struck me also, nonlawyer, again, the allen weisselburg. they wrote out exactly how this reimbursement would work , which, presumably for the prosecution, is pretty damming. >> it is very strong. at some point we will get into the question, not today necessarily but how formidable is the testimony of michael cohen going to be and i think the prosecution has done a great job of laying the foundation of corroboration before michael cohen testified. he's going to come up on the stand and say it wasn't legal fees, it wasn't a retainer, it wasn't legal services, it was for this other purpose, which the prosecution alleges was illegal. and, rather than cooperating him after the fact, they have corroborated him before the fact. also, as you and i and others have been talking about for

months now, michael cohen has some baggage. but a single witness who has testified who knows michael cohen has set the bar so low for michael cohen that i don't know that he has to do as much as we all anticipated he needs to do. >> he doesn't need to on the totality of it. >> let me ask you about the gag order. the judge threatened, of course, if he violates it, he could put him in jail. what does that look like? people have been speculated it could be an hour. is it an hour in jail, is it something else ? >> it could run the gamut. it is an interesting thing not for this time necessarily but the statutory aces in new york, the law is that you can find for criminal contempt $1000.00 per violation. it might strike some people as odd, it strikes me as a little odd but we are not in the position to change the law at this moment, that the next step after a $1000 absent fine is not a $2000 wasn't fine or some other intermediary step, it is

separation from the liberty for up to 30 days. the judge is between a rock and a hard place. i thought what you read before was absolutely stunning. you have a sitting judge who, i think people understand that a judge in his position doesn't want to put donald trump in jail for a period of time. he doesn't want to have to be in that position. the interesting thing is that he said it and he was very honest about it, he was forthright about it, which, to me, means he's serious about it. >> if you are the judge, though, if he's sent to jail for an hour, does he really care? he may get something out of that. that is my theory. he may want that. >> i don't know. we are in uncharted territory. we've never had a former president of the united states who has an actual rate to secret service protection and a secret service detail for the duration of his life, whether he is president or not. in that circumstance, no one wants to, the judge least of all, wants to figure out how we deal with that. i don't really know.

i do think, i never have any quibbles with you. i quibble with you. >> you can quibble any time. you are the legal expert. >> this is not legal questions, i don't think, not withstanding his bravado and his comparisons of himself to nelson mandela or anyone else, he does not want to spend any, he does not want to spend the night in prison. it is very uncomfortable. there's lots of problems he would face personally and otherwise and aesthetically and grooming wise that i don't think he wants to get into. he likes to talk a good game and say i will be a martyr but i don't think he wants to go and so it will be an interesting cat and mouse game appeared >> he may want to go for an hour because he has been fundraising off of it. let me ask you. the trial, they resume tomorrow morning. there are some big witnesses who we've not heard from yet. michael cohen is a big one. who else are you watching for? >> stormy daniels testimony will be interesting. i will say, i'm at risk of being disabused of this depending on how the testimony

goes, i think the most reported testimony has already taken place. these witnesses, david pecker. >> with you, supported one? >> in some ways, yes. he basically told the story of how all of this , all these machinations were important to and relevant to and/or for the purpose of winning the election. you have some holes here, you had hope hicks testifying in part that, you know, she got some hits for the defense, which the prosecution probably didn't love, sitting part of the recent donald trump engaged in the conduct what he wanted to spare his wife fumigation. that doesn't help to prove the prosecutor's case. but, you have all these witnesses talking about the money, talking about the documents, talking about the purpose of the documents, the lack of document tatian of this being a retainer and is being legal fees and then the overwhelming amount of evidence, which is or in place of the document to be evidence but still, i think, overwhelming evidence that this was done close in time to the

election because donald trump cared about the election more than anything else and that is why he engaged in this behavior. these other witnesses will be interesting. we will talk about them. and, the cross from a lawyerly perspective is going to be fascinating and a popcorn eating event. but, i don't know that they are going to be as important given the testimony that has taken place so far. >> preet bharara, you can quibble with me anytime. i welcome it. >> we don't argue, we only quibble. >> thank you so much for joining me tonight. coming up, if these walls could talk. what today's testimony revealed about what was happening inside the white house as donald trump was signing the checks at the heart of this case. former senator claire mccaskill joins me in just 60 seconds. seconds. we came to his house... then we got to work. we replaced his windshield... ...and installed new wipers to protect his new glass. >> customer: looks great. thank you. >> tech: my pleasure. >> vo: we come to you for free. schedule now for free mobile service

at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ right now you can get a free footlong at subway. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we're talking about cashbacking. we're talking about... we're not talking about practice? no... cashbacking. word. we're talking about cashbacking. cashbacking. cashbacking. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? i think it is fair to say that there is no place more symbolic of the dignity and prestige of the presidency than the oval office. it is where franklin roosevelt signed the declaration of war

after pearl harbor. it is where john f. kennedy affected the u.s. response to the cuban missile crisis. it is where george bush addressed a grieving mission on the evening of 911. it is also where donald trump again and elicit scheme to repay the house money used to silence and adult film star. in a meeting with michael cohen in february of 2017, trump confirmed he would reimburse him by check on a monthly basis. at the trump organization's former controller testified today, each check was drawn from trump's personal account, which, as preet bharara said, is not exactly normal and then "we had to get it down to the white house for the president to sign it." so throughout the entire year of 2017, trump was managing this cover-up, signing these checks, while juggling his official responsibility since president. it's kind of a bizarre

juxtaposition when you think about it. one of the checks is dated september 12th. that was the day trump was hosting the paymaster of malaysia at the white house. another is dated the same day trump spoke with vladimir putin by phone discussing syria and north korea. one check was from a date trump was a brat, meeting with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu in israel. another was from the date trump decided he would move the american embassy in israel to jerusalem. i worked for two presidents and i can tell you neither of them were juggling response abilities of that office with a cover-up of illicit hush money payments. but, still, trump was. this trial has already revealed so much about that alleged criminal scheme. we have learned a lot but it is also revealing so much about the kind of president trump was and the county would be if he were to return to the oval office. joining me now was former democratic senator claire mccaskill of missouri. claire, thank you so much for taking the time. i was looking up, we were looking at these dates today and i was speaking to myself, like so many moments, we need to remind people this is not normal. you have been in the oval office, you were a former senator, you were a former

prosecutor, talk to me about what you have heard about what he was doing from the oval office while managing the presidency. how crazy is this to you? >> this goes into the category of we are to numb, we've taken and so much of not normal that all of a sudden, we aren't as focused as we should be on how he abused the solemnity of that office. if somebody would have, when i would have time with my friend, the former president, president obama, we would even go back into the dining room or sometimes and his smaller office if we were going to talk casually because there was such respect around the oval office and what it, it was a symbol. it was a symbol. you think about, if i would have mentioned to president obama, imagine they are going to have an episode of veep where the president is signing checks to pay off a lawyer who gave hush money , the president would have said, claire, you, your imagination has gone

crazy. that would never happen in the united states of america. jen, i want to talk about january 11th, 2017, do you remember that day, what happened that day? what happened that day is trump had a press conference with props. he had finals. he had a lawyer from the trump office along with his kids and it was all to unveil to the american people how he was not going to be involved in his business. and, the paperwork and the files supposedly demonstrated that he was going to hand over everything to his sons and allen weisselburg. he was not going to have any executive decisions. this was all going to be taken over by someone else . now we find out a mere few months later that he was signing every check over $10,000.00. some of them were to pay off a lawyer who was covering up an affair so he could get in that

oval office in the first place. >> it is remarkable. you are reminding me, claire. i worked for two presidents, as you know. and, for both of these presidents, even if they were making political calls or political press calls, they would go over to the residents across the other side of the building out of respect for the oval office. i think that is so important for people to remember. let me ask you because i have you here about this case. one of the things i have been surprised by, i guess, is the storytelling from the prosecutors. it has really told me, i think told the public a lot about what trump is capable of and his character. now, there's no cameras in there so i think that is a challenge. you are a very astute political mind. what is your take on the storytelling and what impact, if any, it could have about people's understanding about this case and who trump is? >> i think they've done a really good job with the narrative, explaining why paying off an adult film star is not the issue here. the issue is a very simple, straightforward statute that

you cannot fly on business records. i overheard your conversation with preet bharara, who is a great lawyer and have spent a lot of time in a criminal courtroom, and have either the star witnesses in this case are not the interesting ones. they are the documents. the documents are the star witnesses. a big one today, where you have locations that actually tied back to the president all of this about hiding it. that is what this case is about, false business records. it seems like to me they have set the table with some pretty riveting testimony about paying off adult film stars and paying off playboy bunnies that they will bring this case home on the strength of the documents because they are going to show michael cohen is finally telling the truth. >> falsifying business records. that is what this is ultimately about. claire mccaskill, thank you so much for taking the time to join me this evening. coming up, lara trump and

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okay. i want to take you back to election night, 2020, when donald trump walked out to the cameras inside the white house and sent this. >> if you count the legal votes, easily win. if you count the illegal votes

they can try to steal the election from us. if you count the votes that came in late, we are looking at them very strongly. a lot of the votes came in late. >> the votes that came in late. to be very clear here, votes that came in late were legitimate ballots postmarked by election day. they just happened to arrive days later in polling stations across the country. there was nothing nefarious about them. but, trump knew they would favor joe biden, mostly because he had spent the last few months railing against mail-in voting. now, four years later, the rnc is picking up where trump left off. >> you cannot have ballots counted, maria, after elections are over. right now, that is one of the many lawsuits we have out across this country. >> rnc cochair and trump daughter-in-law, one in the

same, lara trump was talking about a lawsuit filed in nevada on friday asking the state to stop counting ballots received after election day. lots of states allow mail-in ballots postmarked by election day to be counted if they are received by election officials within a certain amount of time. this is a very normal legal part of our process. we all know what the real goal of this lawsuit is, to once again plant the seeds of doubt. so, here is a prediction. if donald trump wins, we will never hear from him about this again. if he doesn't, he will say another election was rigged in favor of democrats, in part because of the completely legitimate ballots postmarked on election day. call it what you want, voter integration, voter suppression, but, once again, trump and his acolytes are telegraphing for us exactly what they are going to do and we should listen. joining me now is sherrilyn ifill, former president of the naacp legal defense fund, also a civil-rights professor at howard university and a visiting professor at harvard law school.

you always bring me down to earth, you disagree with me when i'm wrong, which i always welcome. i just laid out what i think is happening here but i don't want to exaggerate things. i want to get your take on lara trump's comments on this lawsuit in nevada and get an idea of what is there and came here? >> let me correct you, you will hear about this weather trump wins or loses. remember, even when he won in 2016, he insisted that the election was rigged and that illegal votes had been cast in california and new hampshire and he created a whole election integrity commission he finally had to disband. we are going to hear about this no matter what because that is the way trump is. it is going to get stupider and stupider as we go forward. i rarely use that word that i mean that word in the sense that these are not people who are experienced or really know anything about the way our democracy works. so, they see a scandal and a conspiracy behind every rule they didn't know about or don't understand. when you put someone who is unqualified and your daughter

in law in the position of being the chair of the rnc, you will get a willingness to go out on a limb with a lot of this foolishness. 22 states allow you to cast your absentee ballot and even if it comes in to the board of elections after election day that ballot is valid so long as it is postmarked by election day. in maryland, we don't even start counting absentee ballots until the thursday after the tuesday election. this is not something scandalous. this is not a case that trump will win. this is precisely designed to sow doubt and give them something to hang their hat on so that they can file ridiculous lawsuits after the election. but, i have to say something else that i think is important, lest we think this is just about trump. a few people remember that 2018 was the first year in 30 years

that we help a presidential election, and election in this country, it was a midterm election, without the rnc under a consent decree. a consent decree that stemmed from their voter suppression activities targeted at black voters in the 1980s. we have conveniently forgotten that even pre-trump, the rnc was involved in these shenanigans. so, i don't want to lick it all at the feet of trump. this is particularly silly and uninformed but we should remember that the former rnc chair was on the phone with trump trying to intimidate folks or at least allegedly trying to intimidate folks in michigan from receiving the electors, the appropriate electors and so this is part of why i think it is important for people to understand we don't just have a donald trump problem. we have a party that has acquiesced to its worst impulses, impulses that it had

and that trump took advantage of and now has broadened and deepened. but, who we have to be clear about this, this is nothing. this is designed to create an issue that his followers, who also understandably don't know what election law practices are, can say is something they can point to to suggest that there is something illegal or irregular happening in ballot counting this year. >> when there's not and many people rely on mail-in ballots, including 200,000 veterans who live in nevada, many of them do. i wanted to ask you, because i don't want to always be so dark and negative. what do you think, i mean, it shows a lot about the republican party, and i think it is an important note. there is this effort that predates him and continues beyond him. how should pro-democracy forces out of their fight back against this sort of thing, what should people be doing? >> for those who are never trumper, my friends who have

realized that trump is a unique danger, i would love it if they came clean about the ways in which they conducted the activities and the platforms and the issues that their party was involved in in ways that left their party vulnerable to the kind of attack that trump represents. the issue of voter suppression is one of them. by the way, the rnc is a defendant with trump in the suit filed by the legal defense fund at the end of 2020 in november and december, 2020, for a conspiracy, essentially, to suppress the votes of black voters. and, i think this is part of the problem is that trump cannot be eradicated unless we all began to recognize the ways in which our democratic institutions left themselves formable to his exploitation. i say this to my own profession, the legal profession, i would say it to

the journalists, journalism profession, i would say it to our political parties. all of these institutions left themselves vulnerable to be taken advantage of. so, the way we fight back is to show that we are honest brokers, those of us who claim to be pro-democracy. it is not just that we want our folks to have power, and that we want there to be real integrity in our political process, processes and in our democratic institutions. i think that is what voters are waiting to hear. i think that is how we fight back. we do what you are doing, you call it up, you call it what it is, you try to get the information out so that voters won't be let down the primrose path by trump supplies, and it is important for journalists to draw the line and say what you are saying tonight. this is the practice of 22

states. why is trump is doing nevada and not maryland? this is just gamesmanship. and, it is really important that people get right on it quickly, as soon as that seed is thrown on the ground before it has a chance to dig in and sprout. >> couldn't agree with you more. we have to call it out when we hear it because he's telling us exactly what he wants to do. sherrilyn ifill, i always enjoy talking to you. thank you for joining me this evening. coming up, the apprentice meets veep, meets a pageant. all the things. i will explain after a quick break. break. cient. use kayak. i can't trust anything else to do the job right. aaaaaaaahhhh! kayak. search one and done. right now you can get a free footlong at subway. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping...

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2000, we only member that, it is no surprise he is treating his potential vice presidential running mates as if they are contestants on the apprentice to make or, maybe in one of his beauty pageants. yesterday, trump reposted a photo from saturday's rnc spring retreat with a caption that says "is donald trump's vp pick on this date?" the drama, the suspense, all of it. here is one of the many things that is so crazy about all of this. there was white and be trump's running mate know what the game is and they know they are performing for an audience of one. take for example a sampling of some performances, my that i really mean performances over the weekend, let's start with senator marco rubio, a republican senator born and raised in florida, who has served the state as a public servant for decades. he was asked if he would

relocate out of florida in order to become donald trump's running mate. this is how he answered. >> would you leave the state of florida or change your residency if you were asked to join the ticket critic >> leaving aside for a moment, i think that before anyone decides to move from the state, you better make sure you move to a state where there's not some da that makes it career going after republicans. >> there's a lot packed in to that answer, a lot of words. it is definitely not a no. how awkward would it be for marco rubio if he finds himself at a diner in his new home of scranton, pennsylvania waiting for a call that never comes from trump. that could happen. then there's north dakota governor doug bergen, who didn't back down from supporting trump, even if he is convicted in his ongoing criminal trial. >> if donald trump becomes a convicted felon because of this case, will that affect your support for him for president? >> well, if he becomes a convicted felon in this case, that is just a travesty of justice. >> having a jury trial with the best lawyers money can buy is a travesty of justice? strong words. maybe the governor got some points for dramatics, or the long pause. how about south dakota governor

kristi noem, who recently wrote a book that had details including shooting a puppy and confronting north korean dictator kim jong-un. in a very trump like interview, she plowed forward through the fact that she was lying about a meeting with a foreign dictator in her own book. it didn't matter. >> i'm taking response ability for the change that we have made. >> and for the mistake in the book. >> have told you that and it is not, what i have said is >> you are not taking responsibility for the mistakes but >> i decided this. i am saying that this book is very, very good and i've met with many world leaders. >> painful, painful. of course, some take the tact of flattery or pugnacious this, as you just saw, while others will try to win over trump with their willingness to engage in election denialism.

south carolina senator tim scott showed his chops on that one. >> will you commit to accepting the election results of 2024, bottom line? >> at the end of the day, the 47th president of the united states will be president donald trump and i'm excited to get back to low inflation, low unemployment. >> senator, yes or no, yes or no. will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter who wins? >> that is my statement. >> just yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024? >> i look forward to president trump's being the 47th president. >> senator, just yes or no answer. >> to the american people, the american people will make the decision. >> will you commit to accepting the election results? >> this is why so many americans believe that nbc is an extension of the democrat party. >> simply yes or no. >> i expect president trump's to win the next election. >> i mean, trump is and without

very willing contestants, clearly. the question is why? it's not like there isn't a prior example that could tell us how badly this may turn out for them. just ask mike pence. our friend tim miller joins me when we come back. back. ugh. how do i protect myself? with the new scotts healthy plus lawn food. it's the only product that prevents 27 diseases while feeding your grass to help keep your lawn healthy this season. want me to show you how to put it on? no, i think i know how to use a spreader. pick up a bag of the new scotts turf builder healthy plus lawn food today. feed your lawn. feed it. right now you can get a free footlong at subway. just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app.

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turns out the apprentice never quite ended for donald trump, did it? he still at it. according to according's of a private luncheon, the former president has been freely commenting on potential running mate. about marco rubio, he said, "his name is coming up a lot for vice president" on doug bergen, "i didn't know he was a supporter of my campaigns. he's a very rich man." for florida congressman byron donalds, he told lunch goers, "i like diversity." honestly, trump something excited about the build up than actually having to pick a running mate.

joining me now is tim miller, former communications director for jeb bush. he is out of the work podcast and is an msnbc political analyst. he does have to pick a running mate here. it is not the traditional ones you and i have been of where it is secret meetings between advisors and candidates and things like that. talk to me a little bit about what these candidates are trying to prove to trump. they are all taking different tactics, it seems. >> they are all taking different tactics toward one" is proven that they are willing to humiliate themselves for him. that is what he's looking for. if we do this historically, it's like well, either george bush was looking for, dick cheney had a policy heft. obama was looking for someone who had been around the block. joe biden, maybe he would pick someone from a swing state. maybe a gender or racial balance to the ticket. that is not what this guy is thinking about. he is thinking about who would go along with my next coup

attempt if i tried it. he will do what i tell them. maybe there are some other things he is considering in doug bergen's case, he might be able to fund my campaign. who might be able to give a sheen of credibility to my corruption. that is what he's looking at and he's doing it, as you mention, the reality show way, as is his wont. it is very different, it is gross, really. it is not like these vice president sweepstakes in the past. >> is quite confusing to all these people involved. this may be kind of a silly question but they all saw what happened to mike pence, why do they want this, just the power of it? they think they can change them? what is the thinking here? >> i've been thinking a lot about this. doug bergen has a good life, he's a rich man. >> why do you want this? >> he could buy an island. why do you want this? there are a couple things at play here. the baser parts of some of these guys is they think maybe, i don't think they take the threat to democracy seriously. that is step one.

i think they think they don't think trump would actually do it. why they don't think that after january 6, that is hard for me to understand. i don't think they take it seriously. if you don't take that seriously, then you start to think, okay, eventually this guy will go away. he's going to kill over, maybe they will impeach and convict him next time, who knows how bad it will be. maybe he just won't run again, maybe he will get sick of it and go back down to mar-a-lago and then it is me and i am there. once you start imagining being the one in air force one and having that be your plane, rationalization start to come quick and fast. i think that is really what is happening here. these guys are seeing themselves, and women, are seeing themselves in the big chair. >> they think they can get rid of him in some capacity and therefore sit at the resolute desk of some version. we just played tim scott's interview. this was played a lot over the last 24 hours. watching that as a communications person, i find it extremely painful. it gives me a little ptsd.

what did you think, is that what trump is looking for? how do you think that approach plays with the base, is that what you are supposed to do? >> no, i think that was kind of the gary pugh assessment. he's stumbling, he had weird laughter. he doesn't look confident in it. you can tell he's uncomfortable in his own skin. i don't think that is what they are looking for. i think that what trump is looking for, j.d. vance did the same two-step as tim scott, cnn like two weeks ago, a week ago, he was much more aggressive attacking the media. i think that's what trump is really looking for. i should say about tim scott, then, in an alternate universe nine years ago, tim scott was supposed to be the normal, serious, optimistic, cheery republican. there is an alternate world where he would never find himself doing something that this, humiliating and is dangerous to the democracy. i think it really just says something very sad about the incentives in the republican party right now that it has come to this for somebody like

tim scott. >> i feel like this is been the great diminishment of tim scott. not that, i obviously didn't know him well or anything but this has been very diminishing. we have a few seconds left. give me your best prediction of who you think trump is leaning toward at this point. >> i think j.d. vance. don junior wants him and he feels the most likely to want to go along with any anti- democratic efforts in the future that would be where my vote would be right now. >> we will see. maybe we will place a wager or something on it, we will see. >> who do you have ? >> i don't know. i thought it was tim scott but that interview was so painful to watch. i can't keep him at the top of the list. tim miller, thank you. always appreciate talking to you. coming up next, one important and relevant lesson i've learned in my career that could serve as advice for those being relentlessly attacked by the former president right now, after a quick break. k break.

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i never had to deal with donald trump directly. i've never really been targeted by him. this is not an invitation. but, i do know what it is like to be targeted by people like him. and, for the people who are fearful of bullies and men who revert to fear, i understand there are security concerns, they are real. i want to share something i have learned when it comes to being fearful about backlash that may come. i was once the target for years, vladimir putin propaganda machine. i wrote about this in my book,

"seymore," coming out tomorrow. in 2014, when russia invaded crimea, i was the spokesperson for the state department. it was my job to articulate our country's opposition to the invasion. as i write, i did not hold back. i called the invasion illegal, i called vladimir putin a pariah. because i became one of the faces of the u.s. opposition to the invasion, russian propagandists targeted me and relentlessly attacked me. if you are wondering out there but it feels like to be targeted by the kremlin, not great. as i also write my book, "being attacked and having disinformation spread about you can feel isolating, no matter the source." that is what i felt at the time. at first, a little paralyzed by all of it. early on, i got a very helpful tip from a former osco bureau chief for a major newspaper, who told me, "you should know the russians trying to

discredit you is a badge of honor. they did this to secretary clinton, they did this to ambassador mike mcfall and they do this to anyone who they worry will break through to the public. after that, i started punching bag. i regained my power and effectively combated their campaign against me. that is a good lesson for anyone willing to speak out against people like donald trump. some are doing it, more need to. if he's attacking you, consider it a badge of honor and then fight back at the bully and the police machine. you can read more about all of my time in government and much more in my new book "seymore," hitting shelves tomorrow. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> i am so proud of the new book and i am so excited about it and congratulations for getting it out. i will also say it is a really specific honor. after that kind of equipment dissipated in my life before now to be a person banned from . we're currently in the same studio. we can't do our shows in moscow. >> let us never take spring break in siberia together, jen. >> we can't. >> it's a deal.