it's good to be with you, i'm ana cabrera in for katy tur, and we are covering two major stories unfolding right now. hamas says it has agreed to a cease fire and hostage deal proposal from egypt and qatar. though an israeli official tells nbc news that the framework is not what they had agreed upon with mediators. we'll lay out what we know so far and what the white house is saying. but we begin this hour at the courthouse in manhattan, from a crime witness on the stand last week to balance sheets and ledger reports this afternoon, and donald trump's hush money trial has taken a clear pivot today. right now, deborah tarasoff is on the stand, the first current trump organization employee to testify. this morning, former trump organization controller jeffrey mcconney testified before the court and his cross-examination on the stand just wrapped a short time ago. what he revealed about the strange paper trail that

followed the alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels, and how much of it, if anything implicates donald trump directly. there's a whole lot of drama in the courtroom before mcconney was sworn in. how close is donald trump to being put behind bars for his ongoing gag order violations. we'll explain the most expolice -- explicit warning after donald trump was found in criminal contempt again today. let's get into the testimony happening right now. and joining us from outside the courthouse is nbc news national correspondent, yasmin vossoughian. so bring us up to speed on what's happening right now in the courtroom? >> reporter: so, you just mentioned her, deborah tarasoff, she is a supervisor for accounts payable. she has been working for the trump organization since 2000. so 24 years. by the way, she is the first current employee for the trump organization to take the stand and testify. she still works for the trump organization. the way i'm seeing this, ana, is

completing the circle with the whole process. we're talking about a lot of the paperwork being submitted for evidence, and how they came to make the payoff. we heard from another witness talking about the moneys, the $420,000, which i'm going to break down in a moment. deborah tarasoff was responsible for cutting the checks, the subsequent checks paid out to michael cohen over one year's time in january of 2017. she was the one that was responsible for getting that money, making sure the checks were then transferred to donald trump for signing. either they went up to rhona graff, or they were fedex'd to the white house, in which madeline would pick them up and have donald trump sign them. only the accounts that were specifically for donald trump, ie, his personal accounts while he was in the white house were the checks that were sent to him

to be subsequently signed off on. what is really interesting so far about the testimony is she talks about limit to which they needed donald trump's signature for checks. and what i mean by that is before 2016 and 2017, the limit was $2,500. anything up to $2,500, donald trump needed to sign off on. now she was saying in 2017, that number went up to $10,000. if a check was over $10,000, it needed to be signed off on by donald trump himself and/or his sons, eric trump or don trump jr. if you remember from early testimony, the checks made out to michael cohen in 2017 were $35,000 a month. much more than the $10,000 limit. the questions being answered by the witnesses today and the current testimony happening right now is did donald trump know who the money was going to.

and did he understand the falsification of the records? what i mean by that is did he think they were legal expenses, in fact, a legal retainer, let's remember from earlier testimony, no retainer had been seen. did donald trump think that this was, in fact, outstanding questions, but one thing to keep in mind here, once that retainer was up, once that $35,000 a month was up by the end of 2017, he no longer was paying michael cohen in 2017. that was a one year period in which he was paying him $35,000 a month. >> thank you, we'll check back with you in a short time. keep us posted on the highlights from the courtroom. joining us is criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos, and criminal defense attorney and former senior staff at the manhattan d.a.'s office, duncan

levin. the first time they have seen the checks that were the reimbursements to michael cohen. they saw a check for $70,000. that was to pay him back for the months of january and february, those first installments of the reimbursement, so to speak. i'm curious as to, first, i'll start with you, duncan, how you see this latest witness, and how she fits into the big puzzle. >> well, you know, we have spent the first half of this trial really focused on this conspiracy to violate the federal election laws. that's what the first part of the trial was about. now we're moving into falsification of business records. you would expect it to be sort of the more boring phase. that's what the charges are about. and it hasn't been. it's anything but. we are hearing testimony about checks being sent to the white house and him signing these things in the oval office. while it's a little dry, the math here is really what's important. this document, these witnesses

are actually more important for the document that just got in this morning than what they're saying about the flow of funds. the math here is really important. there was $130,000 payment to stormy daniels, $50,000 to a firm called red finch, which is really a company that the trump campaign hired to rig online votes, the polls before he was elected and ran for president. so that's $180,000. and there's handwriting, this document that was introduced today through the corporate controller has allen weisselberg's handwriting all over it, the former cfo of the trump organization, and he writes in it that it was gross ed up for taxes which means they doubled it. that's damming for donald trump. what it shows is these were false. this was absolutely not a reimbursement for legal expenses. you would never gross up a reimbursement because it was coming as income, and so michael cohen presumably would have to pay income taxes on it.

they doubled it. he lives in new york city, they said presumably you're going to have to double it for taxes. when you pay taxes, you're left with the money, $180,000. they threw in another $60,000 bonus for him, and that's how you're getting to the $420,000 number, divided by 12 month, you're at $35,000 a month. the falsification of the business records is apart from the math, and that is what the d.a.'s office is going to argue. >> you got into a lot of the testimony we heard before the latest witness who took the stand. it's deborah tarasoff who's on the stand right now. earlier we heard from jeff mcconney, the controller of the trump organization during the time that these payments were made to michael cohen, and he was the one who allen weisselberg was saying, you need to reimburse him for this amount, and he was passing down that message, and it was deborah tarasoff who was handling these

checks. how important is her testimony to corroborate the bigger story? >> this is a witness who is not a marquee name but quietly is a very important witness. look, this is classic white collar case. you're going to have a lot of testimony that's dry. not every witness is going to be fireworks. in fact, in these heavy document cases, the more documents you have, the more humans you need to authenticate documents and verify they are what they are, and that can be really really dry testimony. we're marching through that. yet, this is somebody who's not only authenticating documents but describing a really chaotic world at the trump organization when it comes to signing checks and getting approvals. by the way, the process of getting approvals over a certain amount. that's not too strange. what struck me as just a side issue is when trump was in the white house, he's getting fedex checks to approve. that seems like, i guess, as a citizen, i would rather he spend his time as president focusing

on being president. it's a side issue. what this is appearing to show is as this case moves on, it appears doubtful that the prosecution is going to have much in the way of direct evidence where someone takes the stand and says donald trump told me to gross up these payments, falsify the business records, and he said it was because of the campaign. that's not a problem for the prosecution. the prosecution uses circumstantial evidence and the jury can draw inferences from that evidence. that's exactly what they're doing here. they're not going to have that kind of direct evidence. that's the way donald trump did business. he insulated himself. but the defense is pointing out on cross as you would expect them to that just because he may have signed documents, doesn't mean he was staring at them or scrutinizing them or that he was intensely involved. in fact, it was allen weisselberg you dealt with most of the time, yes, it was. these are end roads to show is that donald trump might have been the boss but he wasn't the

micro manager as the prosecution is making him out to be. >> if it was donald trump who gave the stamp of approval by signing the checks, can you draw the direct line that he too was tied to the falsification of the business records? >> i think what the prosecution is trying to do is parallel two different cases. they have two cases in one. one is this conspiracy, david pecker, the "national enquirer," michael cohen and donald trump, to show that donald trump had knowledge of it. michael cohen wasn't acting alone, and now as they get into this phase of the trial, they're just using inferences to show that donald trump knew about the falsification in the business records, he was signing the checks, knew it was $35,000, he's the kind of guy who wasn't just signing checks. he wants the checks to be coming to him. presumably he had other things going on. he was spending time to sign $35,000 checks.

he yearly knew what it was about. he had the knowledge of falsification by virtue of the fact he was signing the $35,000. >> the signing of the check was like the ultimate approval of an invoice, if he didn't want to sign the check, he didn't want to approve the invoice, he could write void on the check, and it seems like that is our understanding he has done in the past. thank you both. stay with us as we continue to follow what's happening in the courtroom. in this hush money trial. but we also want to get an update on the cease fire proposal that hamas says it agreed to and why israel says it's not the same deal they agreed to. we're back in just 90 seconds. s. . react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley nothing dims my light like a migraine.

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we're back with breaking news out of the middle east now, and hamas says they have tentatively agreed to a cease fire proposal brokered by egypt and qatar. an official tells nbc news this is not the framework agreed upon by mediators. israel's war cabinet will meet tonight to discuss this proposal, and this announcement came hours after israel ordered 100,000 palestinians to evacuate rafah. that's the southern part of gaza, signaling a ground invasion there could be imminent. joining us now, nbc news international correspondent raf sanchez. what do we know about the details of this possible deal?

>> so the proposal that hamas says it agreed to would be a three-phase deal. each phase, 42 days. in that first phase, hamas would release 33 hostages from the so called humanitarian category. so that is women, children, the elderly, people with serious medical conditions, and israel would release around a thousand palestinian prisoners in exchange. now, we should be really clear, ana, that is what hamas has agreed to. we don't at this point understand the scale of the discrepancy between what israel says it agreed to and what hamas says it agreed to. in just the last couple of minutes, we have had a statement from the prime minister's office here in israel. they are saying while hamas's proposal is far from israel's necessary requirements, israel has agreed to send a delegation

of negotiators. that suggests that the gaps here are not considered unbridgeable by israel. while there are discrepancy, there is something worth negotiating, worth continuing to try to get to a deal. at the same time, israel says the war cabinet has agreed unanimously to continue the military operation in rafah. israel is saying it was simultaneously negotiating and fighting. israel has been very clear that it sees the offensive in rafah, not just as a way of destroying hamas's battalions but putting pressure on hamas in the cease fire negotiations. earlier on today, israeli aircraft dropping leaflets over an area of eastern rafah, telling palestinian civilians get out. israel is preparing to attack this area. that message intended for around

100,000 palestinian civilians, so this is not all of rafah where there are more than a million people sheltering. at this point, israeli forces have not begun a ground offensive into rafah. an israeli official tells me they are waiting for the order to move in. they are also waiting to see how long it takes for the palestinian civilians to evacuate from the east of the city. it is possible, ana, if a deal can be reached, if these two proposals can be bridged, that would delay at least an israeli offensive on rafah, and the white house is clear, it sees a deal like that as the best way to head off an attack. >> we're talking about the rafah incursion, potential cease fire deal and these are developing as we speak right now. raf sanchez, come back to us as

you get new information. joining us is msnbc national security and intelligence analyst john brennan. hamas says it has agreed to the deal. israel is saying this isn't the deal we agreed to. what do you make of this dissonance? >> it's not surprising that there are some discrepancy here as we get closer and closer to a final deal for a cease fire, but there's a fair amount of brinksmanship and gamesmanship going on. this is complex. there are different components to a cease fire deal, the military cease fire, the duration, what constitutes a violation, then there's the exchange of hostages for palestinian prisoners. when that will take place, how it will take place, and then the humanitarian assistance that's supposed to flow also while these other components are being implemented. i wouldn't be surprised if hamas took the last israeli proposal and made adjustments and announced they were accepting a proposal, trying to actually make it happen on their terms as opposed to the israeli terms.

but a statement that came out from the prime minister's office there is a hopeful sign that at least the israelis are not rejecting what hamas has proffer. they are required to have in-person and direct negotiations against the qataris, and egyptians to see if they can hammer out final details of the deal. >> cia director william burns has been all over the region to push far deal. he's in do ha today. you have been in his shoes before. what back channel conversations do you suspect burns is having right now? >> bill burns, had very close relations with the egyptians, qataris and he and the cia are interacting with counter parts in the individual countries to see whether or not there is additional room for any type of compromise or a change in some of these provisions, in order to

bridge the gaps. this is something that the cia has been involved in for many years. i think bill burns has been doing an outstanding job. it's the complexity, the fact that you have so many aspects of this deal that need to be synchronized and it should be remembered that there are probably three versions of these proposals going on. arabic, hebrew and english, and sometimes the translations can lead to differences of view or discrepancy, and so these are things getting hammered out now, and hopefully a cease fire that will bring relief to the palestinian people in gaza, and also bring hostages home to israel. >> it was such a breakthrough to hear that hamas said yes, we'll agree to a deal. what do you think was the catalyst for that? was it what's happening in rafah? we talk about the hundred thousand pamphlets that were dropped or dropped to about 100,000 people who were in rafah, telling them it's time to evacuate because of what appears

to be an imminent operation there by the israeli forces? >> i think hamas is under a fair amount of pressure, in terms of the pending pressure against rafah that has been heralded over the past number of weeks or months, and they're trying to prevent that, that's where the hamas leadership has been es consed. whose lives, homes, lively hoods have been destroyed as a result of what transpired over the last six months. the international reaction to events in gaza, the protests on university campuses in the united states, and i'm sure that the qataris and egyptians are telling hamas leaders that they should try to capitalize on some of this sympathy that the international community is feeling for the plight of the palestinians in gaza. there are factors that have led

hamas to make concessions. i think things are going in a positive direction and could be in the next day or two we're going to have a cease fire. >> john brennan, appreciate your insights. thank you so much for joining us. we will continue to follow this breaking news out of gaza, out of israel, and we'll bring you any and all developments as they come in. but right after this break, we're going back to that manhattan courtroom where donald trump's criminal hush money trial continues. stay with us. iminal hush money trial continues. stay with us start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

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we're back and tracking the latest out of the donald trump hush money trial here in lower manhattan. right now, we are hearing testimony from deborah tarasoff, a decades long employee of the trump organization, current employee of the organization who actually handled the checks that are at the center of this entire case, those checks that were sent to michael cohen as reimbursements for the stormy daniels payments. let's check back with nbc news national correspondent, yasmin vossoughian, what is the latest with this testimony, yasmin? >> reporter: so at this point, we had seen the ledgers, now we're seeing the actual checks. turns out the former president of the united states, donald trump, signs with a black sharpie. they're walking through each and every check to michael cohen, $35,000 to reimburse him and be a retainer for legal expenses.

they're kind of building this narrative, this circle. we heard from jeffrey mcconney, who sent an e-mail to deborah tarasofff please cut this check. an e-mail from allen weisselberg who got the bill from cohen each and every month. each and every one of the individuals leading to the cutting of the check, deborah tarasoff, taking one of the checks and send to rhona graff or madeline westerhauf, if we can quickly through the numbers as well. i think they're incredibly important just to reiterate what numbers we're talking about here, the total number, the overarching number, $420,000, $130,000 to keith davidson, $50,000 to a tech company.

$60,000 for a bonus for michael cohen, and then grossing up, right, doubling up the $180,000 to cover michael cohen's taxes. that is the picture, right, the story they are trying to tell. the witnesses showing the evidence of these checks, of these invoices, submitted by michael cohen. >> can you remind our viewers who haven't been with us all day long, going through the testimonies and the key pieces why the first check wasn't from donald trump's personal account like the rest of them. it was from the trust, and then it pivoted out of donald trump's personal account? >> reporter: the first check was from the irrevocable trust and pivoted to donald trump's personal account as well. they walked through where it

was, some of the moneys were being disbursed from, and our understanding is obviously that the former presidential signed off on all checks that were higher than $10,000, either him, his son, eric trump, and/or don jr. eric trump who's sitting in court today, and even while he was president of the united states, all of those checks that were coming out of his own personal account in 2017 were being signed by the former president in the oval office. one of the reasons why we believe madeline westerhout, the former president's assistant in the oval office is also likely going to be testifying during this trial. >> yasmin vossoughian, stay with us. and joining us now, attorney and loyola law school professor, jessica levinson. how significant is it for the jurors to see donald trump's written on these checks, to see the physical checks and invoices? >> well, i think it's key.

it might not be as sexy as some o. other days of trial that they've heard or that they will hear, but this is a paper case. and there are two big hurdles for the jury, number one is that a crime occurred, and number two is connecting the former president to those crimes. and when it comes to seeing his signature, this is part of the foundation, he signed off on those payments. the big question is what were they. the prosecution says these were not for legal services, these are reimbursement payments. he's fraudulently signing off, saying they're for one thing, and they're actually for another. then the trick becomes connecting him not just to the payment, but to the scheme, and that's part of what we're hearing today and the scheme is let's pay michael cohen because he paid stormy daniels so she wouldn't share her story, and then there are three buckets of

crimes as you know and you have been discussing that could have helped to commit or conceal. >> so tarasoff, the current witness, agreed that signing these checks, it was like the ultimate approval of an invoice. so in other words, if trump didn't want to sign a check, he didn't have to in those situations, and she said he would write void in a black sharp pea, and send it back. just the fact that trump's signatures on these checks to michael cohen, is that evidence and proof beyond a reasonable doubt that says he was well aware that these checks were going to cohen and he approved of whatever purpose they had? >> i'm with you on the first part, i think the prosecution needs to do more on the second part. the first part, i think this is proof that donald trump signed off on these payments, that he knew about these paymentings. now, the prosecution around that is having to prove that these

payments were made not, again, for legal services but that trump knew that they were the reimbursement payments. and a signature alone isn't showing us that. it's all the other testimony that's showing us that everybody understood this was not for legal services. and then you still need in my mind, more evidence, more testimony for the prosecution to prove why this should be a felony. and that's because trump was signing his name on those checks because he was either trying to commit or conceal campaign finance fraud, new york state election fraud or tax fraud, and frankly, i don't think the signature alone gets us there. >> thank you so much. jessica levinson, i always appreciate your insights and expertise. we're going to take a quick break. back with much more after this on both the hush money trial as well as what we're learning about this potential hostage deal and cease fire in israel,

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become back. the white house says it, too, is reviewing a cease fire proposal agreed to by hamas but not necessarily israel. last hour president biden met with king abdullah of jordan at

the white house. this all comes as nbc news now reports that the white house halted shipments of weapons to israel last week, a rare move that administration officials say isn't indicative of a policy change. joining us now, "new york times" chief white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst, peter baker. and middle east director for the international communities organization, gershon baskin, he initiated the negotiations that led to the release of gilad shalit in 2007. let's listen to what national security adviser john kirby said last hour. >> we are at a critical stage right now. we got a response from hamas. now director burns is working through that, trying to assess it, working with the israeliings. -- israelis. my goodness, i don't know that it gets any more sensitive. >> what do we know about how the white house is handling this

situation and the work behind the scenes? >> you mentioned the president talking with the president of the jordon. bill burns is in israel right now trying to work on this. he's come from doha where he was meeting with the qataris, the intermediaries with hamas. we have a counter proposal, as opposed to them accepting something that israel has accepted. it doesn't necessarily mean we have a deal yet. but they have at least proposed something that is being taken at least somewhat seriously on the initial end as they take a look at it. and the idea, the main crux of dispute is how long this cease fire lasts. what israel has agreed to is a series of temporary cease fires in order to release hostages held by hamas since october 7th. and to allow some of the palestinians to return to northern gaza where they have fled since the beginning of the war. what they want is israel to

leave gaza entirely, and knock off the war all together. whether they can get to middle ground, that's still a big question. at least hamas is not simply saying, no, they are at least proposing their own version that has been blessed, apparently, they say, by the egyptians and qataris. >> hamas made a point to say we accepted a cease fire deal. in fact, our reporting is they are already celebrating this in gaza. nbc reports that new strikes by the idf are also happening right now in eastern rafah. so how real does this deal seem to you? >> it's never done until it's done, and we have three members. hamas did accept the deal. they were told, apparently by the egyptians, the qataris and the americans that once a cease fire began, it would continue. the united states has apparently, according to the

deputy of sinwar has stated on al jazeera that the american president has promised hamas that the war will come to an end through this deal. the government of israel has not weighed in yet, and what we know about the government of israel is that it's very unlikely that they will support a deal that will force them into an end of the war. i think what we're seeing is a challenge by the israeli government to the egyptians, qataris, the americans and hamas by sending tanks into rafah right now as we're speaking. there's a barrage of tanks entering in eastern rafah. the area that israel called on palestinians in rafah to clear out early this morning. and there is a battle going on right now, which is, perhaps, an attempt by netanyahu to sabotage the deal before he has to bring it to his cabinet. >> so nbc is reporting, according to a senior arab source, that this deal would stop military operations and

would include three phases that are each 42 days long in terms of hostage releases. an israeli hostage would be traded for 33 palestinian prisoners, based on seniority. would this be a reasonable proposal for israel to accept seven months now into this war? >> what we have to do is stop thinking about winners and losers in this war because there are no winners. everyone has lost here. the big loss for israel is not the deal that it's making with hamas but the fact that the israeli government has refused to put forward a political end game to the war. because hamas cannot be defeated militarily. if there is no political alternative for hamas to take over the gaza strip the day after the war, then israel has lost the negotiations and lost the war with hamas because

israel will end the war from gaza and hamas will be there. this is a big mistake on the part of netanyahu, the israeli government and anyone who's had a part in fact negotiations. >> how much pressure is netanyahu under right now inside israel when it comes to reaching some kind of an agreement. >> the protesters are out in the streets, the families are out in the streets, calling for millions to take to the streets to force the government into a deal. but netanyahu's cabinet, cannot pass this deal. they have already said that they would not support a deal like the one that's on the table. netanyahu faces the end of his political life or saving the israeli hostages, that's what it comes down to right now, is netanyahu going to act in the interest of the country or is he going to act in his own political self-interest. >> peter, according to two senior administration officials, the white house halted a large shipment of offensive weapons to israel just last week as the idf ramped up the ground invasion of

rafah. what does this move indicate? what more are you learning? >> that's a good question. this is the concern all along, would the united states, the biden administration, use the power of arms supplies to influence israeli policy. he had the conversation where he said, if there are not changes in the way israel is conducting the war, i will rethink my support for israel's war. he didn't directly say on the phone call that he would condition future weapons on the policy. that was the implication people took away. is this halt on the shipment related to a power move, pressure move by the biden administration to nudge the israelis. it's contrary to what they are saying. israel has accepted a deal with the united states and hamas is the one part that had not accepted it. therefore, it makes you wonder why would they hold the weapons if they thought israel was on

par with a potential deal. maybe israel is moving toward an operation, sent a signal of alarm in the administration. they want to slow that down by saying, whoa, hold off here, we're still work the deal, and you did hear, of course the prime minister saying we're going into rafah whether there's a deal or not, which complicated the talks and annoyed white house officials trying to get to a deal. we don't know for sure the details because the white house isn't talking about it. they don't want to be publicly on record about this right now. >> it's sensitive, and there are a lot of unknowns, as far as we know. thank you very much, peter baker and gershon baskin, i appreciate you both. and breaking news out of russia. u.s. officials say a u.s. soldier is detained in russia or was detained over the weekend. he was stationed in korea, traveled to russia on his own accord. the soldier is accused of stealing. joining us now is nbc news pentagon correspondent, courtney kube. what do we know about this

soldier, and why is he being detained? >> reporter: we don't know a whole lot. we know he's been accused or if he was detained because he was an american soldier in russia. he traveled to russia from korea where he was stationed. he's an enlisted soldier. he was not on official travel. he was there on his own. we are told, according to officials familiar with this case, that he went there of his own, without notifying his superiors of the travel. again, he has been detained. we don't know where he's being held. we're trying to figure out a lot of details. we have watched as americans have been detained in russia for the last several years. there are several still being held now. the officials we're speaking to about this are very concerned about his safety, and they continue to warn americans not to travel to russia, ana.

>> keep us posted. thanks for that reporting. don't go anywhere. the jury has come back from a break in lower manhattan in the courtroom of donald trump's hush money trial. we'll take you back there right after this. back there right after this just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. just scan the qr code and enter promo code flbogo it only works from the other side of the screen, buddy. you still got a land line in your house. order now in the subway app.

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deborah tarasoff. jurors were sound evidence connected to michael cohen and the alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels, including multiple checks signed by donald trump in his signature black sharpie. let's go back to yasmin. the prosecutors have charged trump with 34 counts of falsifying business records. today's testimony -- it touched all 34 counts after today's testimony, right? >> reporter: we have seen all the evidence today, 34 counts, falsified business records, 12 counts with regard to ledgers, 11 with regard to invoices, 11 counts with regard to checks as well. connecting the dots for us. jeffrey was authenticating many of the invoices, telling us what was false and not false. deborah going through every

check that was cut and legitimatizing, authenticating every one of those checks, completing the circle. we are seeing the signature of donald j. trump when it was coming from his personal account, in black sharpie. for the first time. i will say today when it comes to some of the testimony, it wasn't necessarily the fireworks that we saw on friday from hope hicks. and that we will see from stormy daniel and michael cohen. as i have said before and i will say again, the star witnesses of this trial is the paperwork. it's the paper trail. as much as the former president tried to avoid a paper trail, communicating much through the telephone, through conversations, so much of the evidence here is going to come through in paperwork, in invoices, in checks. today, the majority of today's testimony was all about showing

the jury much of the evidence that was brought about initially in that indictment, in the 34 counts of falsifying business records. >> yasmin, thank you so much. our legal experts are still with us as well. duncan, has the prosecution done enough at this point to say that these were falsification of business records, that these were not legal fees, these $35,000 checks that donald trump signed? >> i think as of today, the prosecution has proven its case. i'm not sure anyone else is necessary to make it out. they have proven the records were falsified. doubling of the numbers i think shows it on its face. >> explain how just the numbers themselves show that it was a falsification of business records. trump says, i put these in as legal fees because i was paying a lawyer. you say, $35,000 per month, $400,000 total doesn't add up. >> there's a question about --

still outstanding about whether he knew they were false. i think you can read that circumstantially at this point. they may have witnesses like weisselberg or cohen who can add to that. they carry at love baggage with them. the question is on its face, does the doubling of the invoices show falsification? i think it does. when you are reimbursing a lawyer, you are not doubling the invoice to account for tax payments that are not actually true. the falsification comes on its face of the documents. they have some lingering questions about whether trump knew it or not, whether if there's in admission from donald trump that he knew these were false, maybe he had a conversation with michael cohen about it that was recorded. even if you don't have that, the document on its face is enough for the jury to get there. >> you know what's missing from the documents are the typical legal bills that a lawyer would send somebody. right? or the explanation of the hours that were worked and what accounts for the reason for that

amount that is owed. right? how big of a hole is that? if you are trump's team and the prosecution is showing, this clearly wasn't for a legal fee, do you think that the trump team will have a hard time defending this? >> there are two lawyers on the jury. while i know absolutely nothing about them, there are lots of lawyers who are never involved in invoicing. if you are an associate at a large firm. if you even have a passing knowledge, even what you learned in law school and through continuing education, you know when you see these emails that something is fishy, something is fishy about the way these -- there's emails saying, give me a bunch of money. we normally invoice and we normally -- unless we are flat fee invoicing, we invoice, we give billable hours, we give detail. not excruciating detail. the rules don't require a

specific kind of invoice. but generally speaking, an invoice is a good idea. you don't ask the client, double that up because i don't like taxes. none of us like taxes. we are both people who issue invoices. i guarantee neither of us have said, since i know i'm going to pay taxes, can we just double what you owe me? i think it's helpful to talk about that, as silly as it sounds. you look at this, was this laurin voicing? they followed none of the traditional paths. if it was lawyering invoicing, then donald trump was a client, whether michael cohen had his office down the hallway, whether it was at another law firm. that was the client. i don't know any lawyers who make their clients pay taxes on their invoices. because there are two lawyers on that jury panel -- i know nothing about their actual jobs -- i expect they will have

a passing knowledge about this. when the jury doors close and they start deliberating, it's my guess that jurors will turn to the lawyers and say, what's your take? i don't know if that's your experience as well. whether they have experience or not, the jurors will turn to them. that might be something they talk about. this is a little weird. maybe someone else with small business experience who doesn't need to be a lawyer will say the same thing. >> the cross-examination of deborah has just begun. we have less than a minute here. how do you expect the defense to approach this? >> they are just going to keep after this, this one point with her that donald trump did not give her direction to falsify anything. donald trump had nothing to do with the business records. this was something that other people at the trump organization may have been involved in and try to distance themselves from the notion. what came out is that this is a family business. everybody was very involved. they will try to keep their client as far away from this as

possible. >> todd blanche asks about the time frame in 2016 and 2017 saying, did things change when trump ran for president. creating the distance during this time frame between donald trump and the payments and the business records. thanks for being here with us. it's great to have you both here. that's it for us today. thanks so much for joining us. see you again at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. happy monday. it's 4:00 in new york. having laid the groundwork with jaw-dropping testimony about a sordid conspiracy to suppress negative stories about donald trump ahead of the 2016