the other evidence which locks in the transactions. look for the witnesses that you maybe haven't heard their names before. they're the ones that often have some of the most compelling, if maybe sometimes dry, evidence and information. >> we, of course, will have complete analysis throughout the morning and live reporting from outside the new york city courtroom. msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos, thank you, as always. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. well, it's the first show of spring, so we'll start tonight with puppy murder. in a new book, south dakota governor kristi noem revealed she once shot a dog that was untrainable. that's insane. if a dog is untrainable, you don't shoot it. you give it to president biden. maga insiders are saying that kristi noem, seen here wearing the hair of that dog, now has

zero chance of being trump's running mate. but, i don't know, something tells me trump would fully support killing disobedient pets. >> oh, my gosh. it keeps on going. >> it does. >> she keeps doubling down. >> cleanup on aisle four. >> she knocks down aisle five. >> yeah. another possible running mate for donald trump makes headlines this morning. we're going to show you what senator tim scott of south carolina had to say about accepting the results of this year's election. >> more importantly, and more to the point, to show you where the republican party is in 2024, what he said about not -- or what he didn't say, actually, about accepting the will of the people. >> it's just disturbing, and i guess we should expect it at this point. i will continue to be shocked. >> it's a sign of trump's republican party, the autocratic bent they've taken. we'll show you that in a little bit. also, we'll get you caught

up on donald trump's hush money trial, the criminal trial, which resumes later this morning in new york city. it comes after emotional testimony on friday from the former president's long-time aide hope hicks. plus, we'll have a live report from jerusalem on the new developments in the cease-fire negotiation between israel and hamas. a lot going on. good morning on this monday morning, may 6th. welcome to "morning joe." with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. ed luce of "the financial times" is with us. roger chair of the presidency at vanderbilt university, john meesh m. >> meacham. >> we learned meacham was a difficult student. >> we learned it by someone who taught him shakespeare.

>> difficult, huh? >> well, i think she may have just been saying -- >> difficult. >> -- you already knew everything. >> exactly. >> oh, sure. that's probably what it was, yeah. >> or thought you knew everything. >> okay. >> that is definitely true, yup. >> also with us this morning, columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," david ignatius is with us. he is the author of the new thriller, which is out tomorrow. >> oh, my gosh. >> entitled, "phantom orbit." we can't wait to talk about that. >> i'm telling you, these are so exciting, david. the amazing thing about your books is, and the few people who try to do this but can't quite do it as well as you do, is there are often things that you can write in these books that you can't write in nonfiction books. >> right. >> it is an accumulation of a lot of things that you've

learned through the years that you just can't write because it's been, you know, off the record, deep background. you've been -- as meacham, places you shouldn't have gone. you learn things that -- >> crazy situations. >> but you put it all together in these extraordinary books. >> so, joe, i have a friend from syria who said to me once, "david, you tell the truth more in your fiction than in your journalism." i don't know how to respond to that, but there is a kind of truth in this book about what's coming at us, which is space warfare. that's the future of warfare. we're seeing it. ukraine is the first space war. those are the kinds of things i'm trying to deal with in this new novel. >> wonderful. we'll talk more about it, david. thanks for being on this morning. >> talking about ripped from the headlines. >> i know. >> i was reading an article yesterday specifically about the fear of putin's war in space and

what countries across the world are trying to do to catch up with it. let us get to our top story. joe biden narrowly leading donald trump in november's general election race. in the first poll from abc news and ipsos, biden is up four points, 49% to 45% among likely voters nationwide. in the second, from npr, pbs, and marist college, biden holds a five-point lead, 52% to 47% among registered voters who say they definitely plan to vote in november. that is still within the margin of error. what do you make at this point? it is kind of hard to take any poll that seriously, but what is it telling you in terms of the state of the race? also, the fact that it's tight, given the options. >> well, i mean, we're so many months out, so these polls in may just don't make a huge

difference. but i will tell you, as a candidate myself when i was a candidate myself, i would take a poll from time to time. you just want to see. you want to test the temperature. again, as i've always said, you want to look at trends. we saw a couple months ago, joe biden far behind in a lot of polls. these show something quite different, that he is now moving ahead of donald trump, again, among likely voters. you know, polls of adults, even polls of registered voters this far out, you really might as well be watching "housewives of beverly hills," which i hear has really heated up this season. something, as you dig into these polls, i think makes this election actually unique, at least in america. i think it is the way we're going. ed luce, i want to go to you really quickly.

"the financial times," i think a couple months ago, talked about how the approval ratings of candidates, presidential candidates, incumbents, just collapsed. if you're trying to predict how an election is going to turn out, don't look at that. you'll have as much luck as they did in france when they were seeing macron in the low 30s and ending up winning, you know, with 57%, 58% of the vote. we see that here, especially the abc poll, where joe biden's approval ratings are as low as they've been. on issues, donald trump doing better than the president in many areas. then you start asking about who has better character, who is a better person, who understands people like you, and those sort of questions, joe biden wins. in some of those, he wins by a great deal. those approval ratings, again, just as "the financial times"

had reported several months ago, low approval ratings and, yet, he still prevails, especially against a candidate like donald trump. is that just where we are now because of social media and everything else, that you're just going to have presidential incumbents with low approval ratings that may end up like macron winning comfortably? >> yeah, i think that's well put, joe. i mean, governments all around the democratic world have low approval ratings. relative to most of the rest of the west, other democracies, america is the fastest-growing economy, is doing far better, in fact, than countries across the atlantic. yet, biden's ratings are as low as they are there. there is a general just anti-incumbency feeling across the democratic world. a good economy doesn't seem to make that much difference. but we're not really at the

choice stage where most voters are focusing like we do obsessionally here in the beltway. i think, therefore, once we do get those polls, i've always had -- after labor day, i've always had the hunch that this is going to be a referendum on trump, not on biden. >> right. >> because trump will make it a referendum on trump. he just can't help himself. you might think i'm being a bit panglossian, but i think, ultimately, biden has got the edge here. you know, i'm not going to live to regret those words. >> right. well, you know, while you were talking, i actually wrote a note to mikko. mika. i said, i fear ed is being panglossian. >> we almost said the same thing to each other. >> it is really strange. >> it's like we finish each other's sentences. >> comes off the tongue. >> it does. it's beautiful.

jon meacham, i think ed is so right. 2016, it was not about donald trump. it was a referendum on the clintons, on the bushes, on the people who had run the country since 1980. 2020, obviously a referendum on donald trump. i just -- with all that he's saying, the fact that he has to say something shocking and new every day, just to sort of amp up his base, 2024 will also be, the end of the day, a referendum on donald trump. >> that makes it a referendum on the battle for our better angels, which is not panglossian. that is a discernible truth. and the darker instincts, these authoritarian instincts that the

former president is articulating. he is saying it all. so for those of us who believe that this is about democracy, democratic norms, a constitution that, for all of its imperfections, continues to enable us to try to create a more perfect union, all of which shouldn't necessarily be on the ballot, right? i mean, you know, ordinarily, we're voting on a role of the state in the marketplace, perhaps on the role of how we project force in the world. those are the ordinary political choices. this is not that. this is about, do you believe in a we the people? do you believe in i am your retribution? so, yes, it's a referendum on trump, but presidential politics -- well, not but, and, and presidential politics is a binary choice. although, and i don't know if this polling shows this, how the

third-party candidates are doing is going to matter enormously. you know, i believe 49%/45%. that makes sense to me. when you introduce the other possibilities here, who does that hurt is a really important question. as you said, really in about seven or eight states. >> yeah, and in this poll at least, the abc poll, even with all the other candidates introduced, joe biden still beats donald trump. it is, though, still in the range of the margin of error. jonathan lemire, i want to follow up on what ed luce said offhandedly about the american economy being superior to all other economies across the globe. it's not even close. as "the wall street journal" said, the united states is the envy of the world at the end of the year. one of its -- well, the editor

emeritus of the opinion page said the great winner of 2023 was the american economy. the loser was china's economy. you look at all the numbers. we can pick through the numbers. we've been complaining for the past year that the economy is too strong, that it is too hot, that it is pushing up inflation because it is so strong. but, you know, people across the world are looking at our economy post covid and wondering how in the world we did it. it is so superior to other economies. both or friends and our enemies. >> no question. america's post-pandemic economy the envy of the world. some signs last week that perhaps the heat was cooling off, which might allow the fed to tweak interest rates. unclear, though, whether that'll happen between now and the november election. let's be clear here, national polls only mean so much. though, joe, i agree, the trend

lines have been pro-biden in recent weeks, except for the one outlier from cnn maybe a week back, which had trump up five or six. most seem to be going biden's direction now. as we well know, this is not a campaign that's going to be run on the national election. it's about the battleground states. the swing state polls very close. trump up in more than biden, but virtually every state in the margin of error. we heard over the weekend from some republicans who think that minnesota and virginia could be in play. highly doubtful of that, particularly virginia. trump was close in minnesota before, though. he came close in minnesota previously. david ignatius, the biden team, there's a couple pickups they're looking at, too. north carolina, first and foremost, they feel good about where there are there. florida more of a reach. at the very least, they think they'll force the republicans to spend some resources. you had a conversation with some senior biden folks over the weekend. give us their insights to where they think the race stands. >> interesting thing about my conversations with these biden

campaign officials is that their own polling shows a lot of people who voted for joe biden in 2020 aren't convinced yet that donald trump will be the republican nominee. once they become convinced of that, it happens, he is the candidate, there's more of a chance of what we've all been talking about, which is that this election is not a referendum on joe biden, with all of his weaknesses and gaffes, it's a referendum on the person who was president for four years, donald trump. you remind people systematically what that was like. you bring back all the memories people have. let's not forget, in 2022, when the republicans thought they'd have a red wave, they didn't. why? because people look back at the trump years with a lot of distaste. i think that's basically their idea. one interesting thing, jonathan, is that we think that with trump tied down in court in new york, scowling at everybody, looking

like he is miserable, that is probably good for the campaign for biden. actually, the biden people, i think, would rather have him out in the country saying things that then get him in trouble. "the time" magazine interview is a perfect example. they feel like every time he's on the loose, he says something that reminds people, this is how he would govern. they think that's really the best thing they've got going. >> i think he's done that in his "time" magazine interview. >> but david is so right. >> nothing like seeing it. >> the campaign is so right. the professionals, donald trump actually has professionals running his campaign, and for them, less is more. the less donald trump is out on the campaign trail, the less he is saying crazy things, the more they can say, "look back at how great things were in 2019, 2018." that's what they want to do. and pretend that this explosive

volcanic side of donald trump doesn't exist. so it is so interesting when you hear people saying, "oh, it's biden who wants him in court." no. joe biden and the campaign team would love him at rallies every night. again, because he says just crazy things. he loses his train of thought. sometimes he looks like a doddering old man, they say. we've seen -- we could show the clips. in court, all he has to do, he can sleep. he can do whatever he's doing. >> salacious, hideous things are being, you know, proposed about his activity. >> right. >> i mean, i don't know, i think it's a balance. i've heard this many times, that they'd rather have him out there. i'm not sure. >> then he walks out and has, you know -- >> his little moment. >> -- a 30-second talk, easy to contain, and he can play victim the rest of the time. >> we'll watch and see what happens. court resumes today. a lot to talk about moving

forward in the next few hours with that in terms of donald trump's criminal trial in new york city. let's move, though, to the fast-moving developments out of the middle east now. nbc news and the associated press continues bill burns may have to travel to israel to hold more talks about a potential cease-fire in an effort to free hostages from the gaza strip. over the weekend, israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu said israel was not prepared to end the war permanently, saying such a move would leave hamas in power. meanwhile, an israeli defense forces spokesman said around 100,000 palestinian civilians have been told to evacuate the city of rafah as israel appears poised to launch a new operation there. a senior arab negotiator directly involved in the talks with israel and the united states tells nbc news that the cease-fire negotiations are not over and have not collapsed. it is not yet clear when or

whether a major rafah operation could begin. yesterday, four israeli soldiers were killed at a crossing, ten injured, according to the idf. hamas took responsibility for the assault that israeli military officials say involved roughly 14 rockets and mortars. the idf, in turn, destroyed the weapon involved in carrying out the attack, as well as other hamas military infrastructure. there is no indication whether the crossing itself was the target of the attack. joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: it seems we are at a crossroads right now. there had been some progress over the last several days to

try and reach a cease-fire. those cease-fire talks fell apart over the weekend, and now there is an effort to try to cobble them back together. but there are real differences between hamas' position and israeli prime minister netanyahu's position and his government's position. so we either have a deal, and there is definitely an effort to try to reach a deal, or the deal is blown up and israeli forces go into rafah. both seem likely. pressure is being put on both of these fronts right now. let me start with -- and they're absolutely interrelated. let me start on the cease-fire front, then the pressure being put on rafah. you mentioned the evacuation orders. first on the cease-fire, there was an attempt to reach a cease-fire. there were hamas negotiators, qatari negotiators, egyptian negotiators, all meeting in various locations, cairo primarily. hamas said it wants to make a

deal, it's ready to make a deal. it received a document from israel, said it was studying it positively. israel didn't send a negotiator to that forum, and the talks fell apart. they fell apart because the two sides don't agree on what the deal is ultimately going to achieve. what hamas says it wants is an end to this round of fighting, an end to this current conflict. not an end globally to the israeli/palestinian conflict. but an end to the fighting and wants israeli troops to fall back. that'd leave some sort of hamas government in charge. in exchange for that, for israel agreeing to end the conflict and pulling out, there would be hostage releases. the israeli government says it will not accept that. it'd only give a temporary cease-fire, days, weeks, in order to get some hostages out, and then would continue to go

after hamas. palestinians, including representatives, say, what incentive does hamas have to release the only leverage it is holding, the hostages, about 100 believes to still be alive, if israel says, once you do release them, we're going to go after you and try to eliminate you. the other focus here is the city of rafah. that's where about a million palestinians are taking shelter. it is right in the southern part of the country. there was an attack in the area yesterday carried out by hamas that you mentioned. that is also where it is believed the hamas leadership is holding out. it's the last place still under hamas-effective control. now, the palestinians who are there don't want to see the israelis move in in a major way. president biden has said that he doesn't want the israeli military to move in in a major way. it'd be a humanitarian

catastrophe. israel says the only way to eliminate hamas, take it from power in gaza, is by going into rafah. today, we saw the first concrete action signaling that israel might, in fact, do that, dropping leaflets, sending text messages to about 100,000 people in a corner of rafah, telling them to leave because a major military action is coming. the major military action in rafah hasn't started yet. it could be a warning. it could be part of a negotiating tactic. like i said earlier, these things are both related. it could be the israelis are just trying to put pressure on hamas, saying, not only are we prepared to come into rafa, we're going to do it. we're already issuing leaflets for people to leave, so you better agree to the terms right now. things are at a critical juncture, i think, right now, and we will see if we either have a major invasion into rafah or some sort of deal perhaps emerging in the next several

days. >> nbc's richard engel live in jerusalem, thank you so much. we really appreciate your report. >> david ignatius, the question is how to get to this deal for a cease-fire when hamas is demanding an evacuation of idf from gaza. and that'll never happen. i mean, israel, the israeli people -- this is not about benjamin netanyahu. the israeli people simply will never, ever, ever stand for hamas running gaza again. and i'm not so sure many palestinian people in gaza would like that, as well. how do you split that difference? how do you get the hostages home, and how do you make the cease-fire long enough to get

buy-in from hamas so families can be reunited with hostages and aid can go in up abated into gaza. >> joe, this is why we're at an impasse. the way i'd sum it up, hamas is still playing for a win. hamas wants to come out of this so it can proclaim that it was victorious in the campaign that began october 7. israel, understandably, is determined to resist that. so we're at this moment where there is, i think, growing consensus in israel that they have to do this last rafah operation. i was struck by the fact that the chief minister of defense, gallant, who has been the person the u.s. government has felt most comfortable talking with in the last weeks, came out yesterday in favor of the invasion of rafah in a more forthright way than he has. i found the fact that they were actually leafletting parts of rafah, saying, "flee for your

lives, the idf is coming," important. i can remember being in beirut in 1982 when the leaflets came down from the sky saying the same thing. they mean it. so we do have 11th hour efforts by bill burns to put some compromise on the table that allows each side to feel that it can say it is winning when it is, in fact, a compromise. bill burns is an artist. if anybody can do it, burns can. but at this point, i think the likelihood that these combatants, as exhausted as they are and as battered as the palestinian civilian population of gaza is, even so, i have a terrible feeling that this war is going to go on further. the combatants are not exhausted. one thing the united states could do is to say, "we feel it is time for this war to end. if israel decides it needs to

attack rafa, it will do so without u.s. weapons. because we're not comfortable with this next phase of the war." i think the administration is right up at that point. talking with the white house, i know that's on their list. that's a big step, to say, "israel, you'll fight the next battle alone." i don't think they're there yet. the point i'll make, efforts to find a compromise where everybody says they got something acceptable are fading. each side still wants a win. >> yeah. and the one thing that israelis will not allow to happen, and this isn't just netanyahu. this is the israeli people. that is, for hamas to claim a win. >> right. >> for what they did on october the 7th and for hamas to stay in power. that's no more acceptable to the israeli people, hamas staying in

power in gaza, than it would be for us to leave al qaeda in place after september the 11th. >> right. >> the question is, how do you find -- how do you give enough of a cease-fire so it's worth it for hamas, who is not going to stay in power, to release the hostages? that's bill burns' charge. >> another dynamic. ahead in one minute, we're going to go over what to expect today when donald trump's criminal hush money trial resumes. and the big takeaways from the emotional testimony by hope hicks on friday. that continues today, as well. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 60 seconds.

during his hush money trial,

donald trump complained that none of his supporters were in court with him. what about all those cops? [ laughter ] >> former president donald trump, seen here, definitely not sleeping. he's probably just praying. former president trump, for the first time in his trial, wrote a message on a yellow post-it note and handed it to his lawyer while he was making an argument. the post-it read simply, "can't pay you." >> oh, dear. >> didn't donald trump say that he wasn't asleep, he was just closing his beautiful blue eyes? >> yup. >> and taking everything in? >> yup, take it all in. >> okay. >> day 12 of donald trump's hush money criminal trial resumes this morning in a new york city courtroom. after a revealing day of testimony on friday, when trump's former confident and long-time aide, hope hicks, took the witness stand, hicks testified about what it was like inside trump's 2016 presidential campaign and how the alleged

hush money payments came about. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. everybody was talking about the emotional part of this, where hope broke down. but what is it that she brought to the table in terms of what the prosecution is looking to prove? >> i think, mika, that hope was the most valuable witness on the context of what was happening in the campaign in october 2016 that would have led michael cohen and donald trump to believe that a payoff to stormy daniels was not just advisable but absolutely necessary to preserve his chances. i had a chance to reread the testimony over the weekend once we had the transcript, and the timeline that she puts into motion is absolutely devastating. it starts with being notified of the "access hollywood" tape by "the washington post." she's the first person that the campaign -- in the campaign to understand that "the washington

post" has the tape and the transcript on october 7th. once the tape is released and the article is published, so many things happen in rapid succession. a number of prominent republicans quickly disassociate themselves from donald trump and the campaign. you've got another tape and a rumor about it coming to her the next day on october 8th. then by october 9th, trump has his next debate. the first question out of the gate, or one of them from anderson cooper and martha raddatz, is about the "access hollywood" tape. by october 10th, "the new york times" is publishing reports of other problematic behavior that trump has had with women. then by the 15th and the 16th, trump is, again, on the offensive, pushing back against these other women's stories, not stories involving stormy daniels or karen mcdougal, but other women who accused trump of misconduct in this period. she is taking us through in rapid fire succession, one

crisis after another after another, precipitated all at once by the "access hollywood" tape from which they can't get out from under. it's no wonder after seeing hope hicks' testimony that michael cohen, dylan howard, david pecker, donald trump, are engineering these settlement payments to happen because they needed this problem to go away, as opposed to continuing throughout november and up until election day, mika. >> "politico" says in their story reporting on this that hope hicks offered the defense their first glimmer of hope here. says that trump's lawyers argued that trump's motivation in seeking to silence the two women, former playboy model karen mcdougal and porn star stormy daniels, instead, was to protect his family. trying to conflict trump of 34 felonies, prosecutors are

seeking to link fraudulent business records with violations of election laws. there were parts of her testimony where she actually did say he was doing it to protect the family, right? >> well, yes and no. i would say, joe, she said it was a motivation but not the motivation or even the principal motivation. it's like having two hungry mouths to feed, and if the defense is one of the mouths, she gave them a nice, tasty dessert, but she saved the main meal for the prosecution. she revealed in 2018, once cohen told "the new york times" he had made the payment to stormy daniels, hope hicks describes a conversation she had with donald trump shortly thereafter. he told her that he had spoken to cohen, and that cohen had made that payment out of the goodness of his heart to protect trump from false accusations. hope didn't believe that, but what she said next was the more devastating thing. trump then said to her, "i think

it was better that this come out now than if it had come out during the campaign and michael hadn't made that payment at all." it was clear to her that the primary motivation, and while she didn't say this outright, she was conveying for donald trump, the most important motivating factor was not melania's feelings but preserving his electoral chances. >> lisa, let's look ahead to this week. what do we know about who we might hear from? also, is there more gag order details to get through? i believe there was going to be a second hearing for some gag order rules broken. >> let's start with the second part. there was that second hearing. i do not believe the punishment for the alleged violations will be incarceration. in part, mika, because they happened before the first hearing. if donald trump is going to be fairly warned that incarceration could be a penalty for his criminal contempt, this wouldn't have done it.

in terms of what to expect this week, i think it is really anybody's guess. i can tell you thematically, it feels like hope hicks is the last witness, at least for right now, to testify to the formation of the conspiracy to get donald trump elected by paying off these women, and that we should be moving into the real heart of the matter here, which is the falsification of business records in order to conceal that conspiracy to elect donald trump through unlawful means. who are we likely to see here in this phase? a number of trump organization employees who are involved in the invoices and general ledger statements. we also might hear from madeline westerhout, trump's executive assistant in the white house. what does she have to do with this? she had to place the nine checks that donald trump signed in front of him. we've already seen, throug

rhona graff's testimony, where they were discussing, how can i send this back and forth? i'm sending checks for him to sign. madeleine westerhout can be a critical witness to know donald trump had knowledge and participation in this portion of the crime which, as i said, the heart of what the manhattan d.a.'s office has to prove. >> msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. jon meacham, we won't even ask and we stopped asking some time ago for historical parallels. >> there just simply aren't. >> there are no historical parallels in this country. but, my gosh, as you said before, what is at stake is so massive this fall. i'm curious your thoughts when you see this testimony. the "time" magazine article.

the continued threats of an authoritarian regime coming directly from donald trump. it is so interesting. people say, oh, they've got trump derangement syndrome if they say -- then they will repeat something that donald trump has said directly himself and project it onto other people. you know, donald trump constantly is saying something and then -- "i'm going to terminate the constitution." then, "i never said i'd terminate the constitution." i'll be a dictator. >> i'm going to monitor women's pregnancies. >> i'm in support of monitoring women's pregnancies. then he'll say, "i never said that." of course, giving his people what they want to hear. i'm just curious about your take on where we are right now. >> i think my answer is, at once, to me, thrilling and terrifying. it is thrilling because it is up to all of us. it is up to the voters in the

seven or eight states. it's up to those of us who have strong feelings about the continuance of the constitution of order, to make this case, and that's great, right? it's we the people. what's terrifying is that it's up to us and it's up to the voters in the swing states. it's up to those of us who have to make the case to people around the country. if -- there is no mystery here, right? i think it is going to be impossible for people to vote in the fall and not understand what's at stake. maybe that's part of what those of us who, you know, want to make this case have to keep doing, is making sure we say it. it may seem repetitive to the political industrial class, but that doesn't matter. i think as ed was saying, you know, there are normal people who are better adjusted than we

are and don't worry about this all the time. but it is really, really important. i don't think -- again, what i'd say to anyone who says, "yeah but," "yeah, trump is awful but whatever," is there is no but. it's got to be, "yeah, trump is that, and i'm going to vote against him." i just think that's where we are. i say it not as a democrat or republican. i'm talking to a former republican member of congress who was elected in a year where you all broke democratic control for the first time in a biblical 40 years, right? here you are, having left that party. making this case. it is not a partisan decision, at least in my head. it's about the constitution. >> well, you know -- >> it should be. >> -- we balanced the budget

four years in a row for the first time in a century. we passed welfare reform. we did so many things that, at one time, people would applaud if we were conservatives. now, you have, really, a political cult. so, yeah, it is very distressing because ideology doesn't matter. ideas don't matter. it's so funny, for people who may have been surprised, that watch the show every day -- and thank you for watching the show every day -- during some of the campus protests, people wrote in and said, you sound conservative. well, where have you been for 17 years? that's the thing. i think good conservatives, good moderates, good liberals, good progressives can all agree on the same thing. we've got a wonderful country. we have a great constitution.

we need to keep moving toward being a more perfect union. we recognize our flaws. we also recognize a great future if we go in the right direction. that's one of the things -- that is one of the positive things, mika, that i've loved. i've loved being able to talk to progressives and talk to liberals and talk to people who i may have disagreed with through the years, and get together and go, you know, this is something so much bigger. >> it is. >> this is about the constitution. this is about america. whether bernie sanders or mike pence is president of the united states, we have a constitution that rounds off the sharp edges. they respect the guardrails of american democracy. >> yeah. >> donald trump is unique in the fact that he does not. i've got to say, again, it is as john said, i'm a conservative guy from northwest florida.

there are progressives on the other side. we agree we're at a moment right now where we all need to come together and protect this democracy. protect this constitution. >> it is clear for people who study this every day like us, this country will change in an extremely significant way if trump wins the next election, unlike the last time. >> he promised that. >> i know that. we also know what he tried to do the last time around. he didn't have the people in place he will this time. they have a whole project to set that up. when you look at the "time" magazine article, ed luce, you're writing about why europe should brace itself for donald trump, for another term of donald trump. tell us about it. >> the european strategy has been, until now, to hope trump

doesn't get re-elected. there is not much you can do in practical terms to hedge against this possibility. trump, first time around, was pretty bad. i think there is an understanding, if he gets elected again in november, it'll be by a multiple much, much worse than it was last time. in terms of trade wars. trump believes deficits means america is being ripped off. there would be a transatlantic trade war, more than with the aluminum and steel tariffs last time. the word, of course, would be the end of nato, if not legally, de facto, in terms of trump saying they need to pay their

fees, he sees it as a club, and, therefore, we won't come to your aid if you're attacked by putin. putin has his eyes on other countries than just ukraine. he has moldova, the baltic republic in his sights. none believe a trump administration would back them up in a showdown with putin. so europe has to brace itself, prepare for the possibility of trump. it is very hard to know how to do that. some countries like poland are spending 4% of their gdp on defense, which is higher than america, by the way. >> right. >> he's not going to take those things into account. he has a preconceived view about europe as moochers, you know, as people who basically rely on american subsidies. he wants to eliminate those subsidies. >> all right. ed luce, thank you so much. jon meacham, once again, like

eisenhower, warning of the political industrial complex. even ike could not imagine the day. >> if only he could understand shakespeare. >> the day when there would be four-hour political shows daily. >> that's right. >> we'll get back to you on that. >> good luck. you might want to -- >> i would say i look forward to that, but i don't. thank you. >> you shouldn't. >> okay. david ignatius, from reality sounding like fiction and fiction sounding like reality, tell us about your new book, a thriller entitled, "phantom orbit." >> so, joe and mika, "phantom orbit" is about the world of warfare that has really arrived. we don't think of it, but the ukraine war is really the first space war. all of the communications equipment that allows ukraine to keep fighting in this war, it is targeting, its intelligence

assessment, it's all through space systems. russians realize that and are trying to take those systems down. my book opens with a russian scientist who believes that he has discovered a russian-american, a russian-chinese kill switch that can turn off the gps system on which we rely for basically every aspect of our commercial lives. gps runs transportation. every cell phone connects with gps. he sees this as a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of the russians and chinese. he decides that he has to tell the cia about this and communicates the information to them. they don't do anything with it. weeks pass and nothing happens. the question that we open the book with is, why? the book then pulls back and looks at the roots of this man's obsession with space systems,

his relationship with an american woman who is a cia officer, and moves toward the present moment, where the ukraine war is going on, and all these issues are really matters of absolute life and death for our character and for our countries. but i think the basic takeaway, joe and mika, is that we're entering a new world in warfare. it's the next world that will begin in space, may end in space. these are systems that people haven't really begun to think about. the pleasure of being a novelist, in the time i'm not a journalist, is i get to think in this broader way about what's coming and the characters who are driving it. >> "the washington post" david ignatius, thank you. his new novel, "phantom orbit," is officially out tomorrow. >> i can't wait. >> congratulations, david. thank you very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," the atlantic's anne

applebaum will join us with her new piece about democracy and how it is losing the propaganda war. and what autocrats in russia and china are now doing with maga republicans to discredit freedom everywhere. "morning joe" will be right back. >> tech: does your windshield have a crack? trust safelite. this customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home... ...so he scheduled with safelite in just a few clicks. we came to his house... then we got to work. we replaced his windshield... ...and installed new wipers to protect his new glass. >> customer: looks great. thank you. >> tech: my pleasure. >> vo: we come to you for free. schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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are you kidding me? it's a hat trick for louie suarez. >> lionel messi continues to make it look easy in the mls. the former legend, suarez, was messi's fifth assist, propelling his team to the win. let's bring in nbc sports soccer analyst and founder of "men in blazer," median at work, roger bennett. it's really just kind of impossible to explain adequately the impact messi is having in the mls. tickets, ticket prices exploding. these cities just flooding to see this guy. a lot of old hands saying, see him while you have the chance. he is the greatest of all time. >> that, i would not argue with, joe. but watching him play football

is so joyful. every week, it is like watching the ewoks win the battle for endor. he delivers. you want to talk about the premier league, right? mika watches the premier league. >> i do. >> mika -- >> on a loop. >> mika wants to talk about the premier league and how liverpool decides to actually win when it no longer matters. >> yeah. we'll get to liverpool, joe. let's start with the big teams who actually can win things. the premier league is careening into its final two weekends. title race for mika going down to the wire. a bit like the kentucky derby, with arsenal and three-time defenders manchester city, headed for a photo finish, going down to the last nose hair. first up, london, arsenal owned by stan kroenke, bournemouth, opened the scoring in the sunshine. saka from the spot, cooler than the polar bear's toenails.

declan rice spun around like a record, baby, right round. he finished it off at the death. a fine, exquisite cap to a tenacious 3-0 win. finished with a salute to the fans. absolutely delirious. this team, arsenal, so young, throwing hay makers like lamar kendrick at drake. all eyes are moved up north to manchester. abu dhabi owned manchester city held serve and nerve. they are a machine. against wolves. the star, the norwegian, haaland. chatgpt in cleats. it was like watching vince carter dunk, if he'd been born in norway. it was like watching larry

hitting the ball like tom brady at city. one point behind arsenal with the extra gain to play. honestly, feel like a mortal. we want to talk about your beautiful, human liverpool, joe. the care bear of a manager, jurgen klopp. penultimate game playing tottenham, who were at bad as kristi noem reading her own book on tape. they won, 4-2. this elliott thundering the ball home, from caitlin clark range. it is incredible, joe, to watch this man. jurgen klopp, a german in england, a man who an enormous weight has been lifted from his shoulders by his announcement he is going to leave after eight years. he was left to celebrate and revel in the expression of collective gratitude for the journeys he's taken these fans around the world on, like you,

and the dreams he's allowed them to share. even me, who is only 3% human, find it incredibly moving. >> well, i've got to say, we will be watching that on a loop and trying to dissect everything he said. it is like reading james joyce. >> it is. >> you'll be studying this for a while. pick up the kristi noem references. >> yeah. >> the kendrick lamar references. the tom brady roast references. >> i want to know his thoughts and reflections. >> mika, i've got to tell you, that has made my week, you saying football, you watch it on a loop. genuinely, my work is done. >> on a loop. okay, roger bennett, thank you. >> thank you, roger. >> very much. ahead on "morning joe," republican senator tim scott of south carolina was asked six times yesterday. >> six. >> six times, whether he'd accept the results of the 2024 presidential election. we will show you how he dodged

answering that simple question. >> do you support american democracy or not? go. >> "morning joe" will be right back. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ - so this is pickleball? - pickle! ah, these guys are intense. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right?

you talk multiple times about it. you say the very first thing you'd do if you got to the white house that was different from joe biden is you'd make sure joe biden's dog was nowhere on the grounds. commander, say hello to cricket. are you doing this to try to look tough? do you still think you have a

shot at being vp? >> number one, joe biden's dog has attacked 24 secret service people, so how many people is enough people to be attacked and dangerously hurt before you make a decision on a dog and what -- >> he's not living at the white house anymore. >> that's a question the president should be held accountable to. >> you're saying he should be shot? >> the president should be accountable. what is the number? i would say about republicans criticizing me, these are the same republicans that criticized me during covid. they've criticized me when i make decisions in south dakota to protect my state. >> i don't know. i kind of think people don't like it when you shoot puppies in cold blood. south dakota's republican governor kristi noem seeming to suggest that president biden's dog, commander, should meet a similar fate. after her 14-month-old puppy, cricket, 20 years ago, when she

shot it dead in the gravel pit. what in the world? why did she shoot it in a gravel pit? why did she then grab a goat and shoot it in a gravel pit? this is something she writes in her book that she says people are misunderstanding.misunderst that. that sounds sick. >> judge jeanine on the five said, you know, when you can unite republicans and democrats this way. >> you can, yeah. >> you've done something terribly wrong. >> yeah. >> i mean, you know, i think this goes to, jonathan lemire, this really goes to, again, republicans trying to be tough. i will say, too, and this was sort of a phrase that people started talking about several years ago, that cruelty actually

is the point. somehow, cruelty shows toughness. there was a fox news conversation this weekend that a lot of people were talking about, where the brutalizing of paul pelosi, the brutalizing of a man in his 80s was a punch line. again, something that would have gotten -- pre-trump, would have gotten anybody fired from any network anywhere. we would have had -- you know, we go back to even at the beginning of donald trump's presidency, when he attacked mika, bleeding badly from a facelift. you had a lot of republicans that spoke out against him. >> people were like, no, that's just a no. >> you've gone a step too far, face shaming, all this other stuff. we've got ton a point where the boundaries are off. somebody can laugh about paul

pelosi. people in the audience, when donald trump makes fun of paul pelosi being brutalized, attacked, almost bludgeoned to death by a hammer. >> staggering. >> people in the audience laugh and applaud. >> this is normal now. >> see this clip. here are two hosts joking about the brutal attack on paul pelosi that fractured his skull in 2022, while they were talking, actually, on air about the presidential medal of freedom. i'm not sure how they got to laughing about -- >> we'll see. >> -- an elderly man being almost beaten to death. watch. >> in a home invasion. >> probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice, and gavin newsom. your list is correct but a little off brand for big joe. rachel. >> maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. >> well, it's medal. all right.

rachel, good to see you. >> it's medal. >> we wish him well. we wish him well. >> no. >> jonathan lemire, go. >> let's recall, of course, that donald trump, as you say, when he talks about paul pelosi, it is a punch line at his rallies. it is the comments about paul pelosi that prompted joe biden, president biden, as i reported, to refer to trump as a sick blank, f-word, in private, repeatedly. i think that reflects a lot of what americans feel about people who make jokes about 80-plus-year-old men nearly beaten to death by a hammer, their skull cracked. but, you're right, there is a normalization of this sort of violence, this cruelty, this grotesque behavior, which is why it was something of a surprise there were so many republicans willing to speak out against kristi noem, with the governor boasting about killing her own dog. we should note, she read those words in an audiobook, as well as a claim she met kim jong-un, which was not true.

she's had to back down from that, as well. she's on an apology tour this weekend talking about the dog, still trying to defend her decision to kill it. you know, seems to make things worse. i will note, donald trump over the weekend at mar-a-lago, at a meeting with donordonors, went through possible vp candidates. though many in his orbit say kristi noem is out of it, trump praised her repeatedly, said, "she's always been there for me. she's a great talent." >> that was the discussion on the latest edition of "morning mika." i think trump will see her sick, depraved confession as a good thing. i don't think it takes her out of the running at all. >> no. >> i do think that people are absolutely horrified on the right and the left at the thought of her dragging her puppy into a gravel pit and shooting it dead in anger. >> because -- >> is this someone you want leading? >> because she didn't, i guess, have time to train it. >> and shot the goat because it was ugly and gross.

>> donny deutsch, again, the bigger point here is, the cruelty is the point. we've gotten to a point now where republicans think that if they say that they killed a 14-month-old puppy, that, somehow, people will see that as them being tough with the gun, whatever. tough can puppies. i can handle 14-month-old puppies, so i can handle anybody. please. again, on trump-supporting networks, you have people joking about a man in his 80s almost being bludgeoned to death by somebody making the same chant that people were doing on january 6th, "where's nancy?" i want to play this clip again, donny. i must say, i was shocked the first time i saw it. take a look.

>> yeah, probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice, and gavin newsom. your list is correct but a little off brand for big joe. rachel -- >> maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. >> well, it's not medal. all right. rachel, good to see you. >> it's medal. >> we wish him well. we wish him well. >> i find it so ironic that republicans who think of themselves as the tough party and the party of cruelty, if it is for a cause, as in the case of kristi noem, killing a dog, or in the case of joking about paul pelosi getting hit with a hammer, or minimizing january 6th, yet the republican rank and file have turned into the biggest wimps in the entire world. none of us will stand up to anyone. they don't have any voice of their own. they have no conscience of their own. they're little lemmings following the fearless leader, yet they are the tough party. they're anything but the toughest party. who know who the toughest person

in the party was? liz cheney. >> yeah. speaking of being afraid of your own shadow, because donald trump may be upset by what you say -- >> and you're in the running for veep. >> we actually had a guy who, at the beginning of the campaign, we were talking about positively being able to go out on the campaign stump and being able to energize republicans with a fairly traditional, positive, conservative message. that was, of course, tim scott. that guy has completely disappeared. now, when asked whether he would support the democratic process and whether, mika, he would support election results when americans go out and vote, would he accept those results, he couldn't do it. >> this is an interview on "meet the press," where tim scott, considered to be on trump's short list for vice president,

refused to answer whether he would accept the 2024 election results as legitimate, no matter the outcome. here's that exchange. >> senator, will you commit to accepting the election results of 2024, bottom line? >> at the end of the day, the 47th president of the united states will be president, donald trump. i'm excited to give back to low inflation, low unemployment. >> senator, yes or no? yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter who wins? >> that is my statement. >> but just yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024? >> i look forward to president trump being the 47th president. kristin, you can ask it multiple times. >> a yes or no answer. >> the american people will make the decision. >> but i don't hear you committing -- >> they'll decide for donald trump. >> will you commit to accepting the election results? >> this is why so many -- this

is why so many americans believe that nbc is an extension of the democrat party. at the end of the day, i said what i said. i know the american people, their voices will be heard. i believe that president trump will be our next president. it's that simple. >> but, senator, as you know, the hallmark of our democracy is that both candidates agree to a peaceful transfer of power. so i'm asking you as a potential vp nominee, will you accept to commit to the election results in this election cycle, no matter who wins? just simply yes or no. >> i expect -- i expect president trump to win the next election. listen, i'm not going to answer your hypothetical question when, in fact, i believe the american people are speaking today on the results of the election. if it continues for the next six months, we find ourselves in a great position where we get back to another century of american prosperity. i'm looking forward to that. >> i'm -- i'm stunned. actually, i can't believe in

2024, after nine years of donald trump being on the political stage, that we've gotten to this point, donny deutsch, where you have a united states senator who understands, if he has any chance of being on the short list for being donald trump's vice president, he has to say he won't accept the results unless donald trump wins. let me just say, how astounding. how astounding that he would say that nbc is a wing of the democratic party because kristen welker asks him, "will you do

what we were all taught in grade school and in middle school and in high school? will you do what has long made america stand separate from our enemies? and will you accept the will of the people? will you accept the magic of american democracy that was written about in the making of the president in 1960." americans getting out of their homes, leaving their apartments, driving off their farms to go vote all across america. and collectively decide who the next president of the united states is going to be. will you accept that? his answer was, "only if donald trump wins." he couldn't say, "yes, of course, i'll answer that."

again, pre-donald trump, even pre-2020, everybody would have said, why, of course." i can't wait to talk to ane applebaum about this. talk about the twilight of democracy. your reaction? >> another tough republican, again, joe, could not answer the question, will you accept the results of an election? what is most befuddling about that is not the spinelessness of these characters who follow trump, to not even admit the pace basic fundamental of democracy and say it is okay, but to people listening, it's not registering. i've said this many times. i've had conversations with friends and say, "do you understand there won't be a real, free election if donald trump is elected?" they go, "it's not possible. you're overreacting." you hear it not only coming out of donald trump's mouth but coming out of his followers' mouths. they're telling us as authoritarians do or followers of authoritarians do, they tell

us what's coming. now, the big question, maybe anne can answer this, is why are so many people not listening or not at least believing it? >> yeah. >> this is the republican party, joe and mika. this is who they are. >> yeah. >> it is an open audition to be his vice president. there seems to be, as we often say, no bottom here. we have a governor of south dakota thinking that bragging about killing a puppy will make her look tough. we have a well-respected senator from south carolina suggesting that, you know, he would not go so far as to defend american democracy in free and fair elections, which is the bedrock of who we are. won't do it because he doesn't want to dare upset donald trump. it is all about flattery. it is all about dear leader. that is where the gop stands right now. trump has remade it in his image. i'm told that he is still in the early stages of the vp process. he is in no rush to make this

decision. the convention is not until the middle of july. they think even if it is mid to late june, that's fine. even early july, perhaps. he likes this. he likes, i'm told, these prominent republicans kissing up to him and trying to win his favor. and we should not forget this, a senior aid told me over the weekend, as much as he likes the flattery, it is not trump's focus. he is consumed by the criminal trial in manhattan resuming in a few hours. he's going to enjoy the adulation without making a decision soon. >> let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum. she has a cover story for the latest issue on the magazine, "the new propaganda war." we'll get to that in a second. we went over two things from the weekend. one, celebration of violence, bizarrely enough, about slaughtering a 14-month-old puppy and thinking that that would help her political career

in donald trump's republican party. you then had the two news hosts joking and laughing about an 82, 83-year-old man nearly being bludgeoned to death in a home invasion by a hammer while the attacker was chanting january 6th chants. then the stubborn refusal of a heretofore respected senator, refusing to say that he would accept the outcome of an election if donald trump was not the president of the united states. can you talk about those three and wrap it up into a neat package with a bow and tell us what the hell is going on. >> and give us some good news? >> no good news here. you can try. >> you're asking for a lot. look, i think what we're learning, if we haven't learned it already, is that the united

states is not as exceptional as americans had always believed it to be. these are all patterns that we've seen in other times and other places. for example, accepting a conspiracy theory, you know, the conspiracy theory in this case being that the 2020 election was stolen, and paying lip service to the conspiracy theory, is a classic tactic used inside one-party states to ensure loyalty. i mean, whether you're looking at the communist party of the soviet union or whether you're looking at the ruling party in hungary, everybody, if they want to progress in those systems, they have to accept the lie told by the leader. everybody knows it. what you just saw was tim scott playing out that role. he can't say he'll accept the results of the election because then he's automatically eliminated from being trump's vice president. of course, the other disturbing part of the story is the fear

that if trump becomes president, everybody who works in the government, including everybody who is appointed to a civil service job, will also have to accept that lie. in other words, you'll have to be part of the fiction in order to be considered eligible to be anything, to be in trump's campaign, in trump's government, sorry. it's another piece of evidence that we are moving, not really that autocracy is coming to the u.s. or there is something happens, but that it's already here. some of the habits of autocratic states are already with us. >> right. >> yeah. >> anne, we haven't had a chance to talk to you since "the time" interview, but, again, it reads like it's straight out of "twilight of democracy." your warnings about what happened in poland, what

happened in hungary, in putin's russia. in the "time" magazine article, trump is talking about firing u.s. attorneys that do not prosecute, arrest and prosecute his political enemies, enemies in the press, enemies in the judicial system. we have donald trump talking about states monitoring, that it is okay for states to monitor women's pregnancies. it can go down the list. as you read that, were you surprised that he would admit what he is going to do? or do you suspect that he's just trying to let americans know, if you'll elect me, we're moving beyond democracy and will look more like orban's hungary than madison's america? >> so this also connects to the topic of my "atlantic" cover story. for some years now, there's been a part of the american right,

helped by some other foreign actors, who have been pushing the idea that autocracy is stable and safe, and democracy is chaotic and destructive. therefore, we need a different kind of political system in america or different kinds of people running it. you know, what trump is doing is playing into an existing sentiment, one that has been built up and created for many years. so the idea that, you know, his presidency would be stable, more prosperous, more, you know -- it's part of a broader argument about the decline of democracy and the rise of autocracy. >> for you, looking back, when did that start? when did that begin? you say it's been happening in the republican party. when did the party, my former party, start moving that direction? >> i mean, i think, you know, different things happen at different times.

it became clear to me during the 2016 campaign that something odd was happening. even, for example, donald trump during the campaign, you know, using and repeating russian-invented conspiracy theories. there was one about obama creating isis and hillary starting world war iii. you know, attempting to show that the democratic party, in this case, was chaotic and destructive. remember his language about "only i can help you. only i can save you." there was already autocratic language that was beginning to appeal to people. i think he sensed it and saw it coming. >> yeah. let me read from your extremely powerful piece. it's the cover story in "the atlantic." anne, you write in part this, "the new authoritarians also have a different attitude toward reality. they lie constantly, blatantly, obviously. but they don't bother to offer counterarguments when their lies are exposed. after russian-controlled forces

shot down malaysia airlines flight mh17 over ukraine in 2014, the russian government reacted not only with a denial, but with multiple stories, plausible and implausible. it blamed the ukrainian army and the cia and a nefarious plot in which dead people were placed on a plane to fake a crash and discredit russia. this tactic, the so-called firehose of falsehoods, ultimately produces not outrage by nihilism." fear, nihilism, coupled with disdain for democracy, this is the formula that some autocrats, with some variations, sell to their citizens and foreigners rg all with the aim of destroying what they call american hegemony. anne, and, joe, actually, i think donald trump will drag out

picking his vp because he has these people stepping up and jumping into his lies and holding on to them tight. >> right. >> and developing a little system for him. >> right. >> among many others. the question is, as anne lays out how this happens, how does america pull back from self-destructing? >> anne, you're just so perfect to talk about this. >> yeah. >> because you understand poland, what has been happening in poland over the past several years. you actually had the law and justice party completely controlling, so many levers of power there, going into the election. they thought they were going to win the election. others thought they were going to win the election. they did control those levers, but they lost. donald tusk ended up winning. i'm curcurious, what lessons ca america learn from that? how do you combat this firehose

of falsehoods? i remember reading in "the new yorker" back at the beginning of donald trump's presidency, the dairies of a man who saw the rise of hitler. one of the things that he talked about was just the firehose of falsehoods, how confounding it was to keep up with what the truth was, what the truth wasn't. eventually, people just gave us. how do we not give up in trying to discern what the truth is, and how do we overcome this? >> it's interesting that you talk about poland, where we did have a very similar kind of government, one that lied repeatedly, that sought to manipulate the media, but also sought to take control of all the institutions of the state. so much so, nobody really believed anybody could ever beat them in an election again. we're not in that position here in the u.s. we're in the opposite position. we don't have that government yet, though, of course, we could.

the solution in the end was to look for other ways of contacting people. there was an enormous grassroots campaign in which the, which was then the opposition party, sought to reach people where they were. sought to visit small towns, big cities, rural areas, in huge numbers, partly as a way of showing up in real life to contradict the fake messages. that's not as easy to do in the united states. we're a much bigger country. i don't think joe biden can visit every major city in america in the next six months. he could certainly get surrogates to do it. he could get others to do it. certainly, finding ways to reach people who are apathetic, who, as i wrote, are nihilistic, who look at all this stuff in politics and say, it's so confusing and contradictory, i want nothing to do with it. reminding them what elections are for, why we engage in them,

why our country is important, why our future is important. getting them to talk and think about the future. that's really the task for the next six months. >> anne, as we speak, china's president xi jinping touched down in france. he is meeting with president macron there. this will begin his european tour. also has stops in serbia and hungary, which are not quite the liberal democracies that much of the rest of western europe is. talk to us about this moment on the global stage as it comes just days after u.s. intelligence says that, while china is still not providing legal aid to russia, they've been supplying enough equipment to help russia's military stay afloat, despite all the damages it took in ukraine. >> yeah. certainly, china -- and this is one of the new elements that i talk about in the cover story. china very much sees itself in league with russia and in league with other autocraies and works with them and sees them as having some kind of common

cause. again, these are countries that have nothing in common, often, idealogically. communist china, idealogical russia, there is no secret room where they plan things together, but they see themselves engaged in a common process. the common process is their desire to undermine us. in other words, to undermine the narrative of democracy. again, as i said, to describe democracy as degenerate, divided, as chaotic, to show themselves as the only real alternative. the chinese have built an enormous network of media in africa as well as asia and latin america, all over the world, in order to push those arguments and push those stories. they're looking for allies. they're looking for allies in hungary and serbia. i think the trip to france has a slightly different purpose. xi jinping is hoping to somehow break france off or europe off

from america. i don't think at this point he'll succeed, but he certainly has, you know -- there is a deep iranian-chinese connection. there is a deep venezuelan-chinese connection. china has deep, important relationships with places like zimbabwe, countries that use and share the similar kind of narrative. they see themselves as being a kind of vanguard. we're going to make the world safe for autocracy. we'll change how the world is run. we'll eliminate human rights and discussions of freedom from the global stage. instead, we're going to change the focus and use words like sovereignty. when the chinese use it, it means we get to decide what we do, and we don't want to wear any criticism from anyone else. >> the new cover story for "the atlantic" is out now. anne's upcoming book, "autocracy inc. and the dictators who want

to run the world," is out in july. anne applebaum, we await that and look forward to that. thank you for coming on this morning. thank you for your piece. >> thank you. in about two hours, donald trump is scheduled to be back in a new york city courtroom for the start of week four of his criminal trial. it follows a week of testimony capped off friday by trump's former confidant and long-time aide hope hicks, helping to further illustrate the inner workings of the former president's operation and how the alleged hush money payments came about and why, potentially, they were more about the te election than anything else. >> let's bring in nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann. sort through the testimony for us. we've heard from both sides that trump got what he needed from hope hicks. others saying the prosecution got what they needed from hope hicks. sort through it for us, if you will. >> sure. you know, i was listening to

your conversation in the last block and also with lisa rubin. you know, the piece where people think this may have had some benefit to the defense is one i really don't agree with because of the law the jury is going to be told at the end of the case. that is, what if donald trump acted out of dual motives? what if he was, in part, thinking of the campaign, and, in part, thinking about his family when he paid these hush money payments? the law on that is clear. dual motives are sufficient to convict. you do not have to have 100% thinking in my head, i'm only doing this for the campaign. in other words, if you have some part of you that is thinking, i also would not like my wife to find out, that doesn't mean you're not guilty.

it is true, when this became public in 2018, of course donald trump was thinking, gee, i wonder how my wife is going to react to that, but that doesn't really mean that he didn't have a campaign motive before that. there, there was so much testimony in the last week from david pecker, keith davidson, and, finally, from hope hicks, saying -- from donald trump's own mouth saying, it is great that michael cohen paid this money so that it did not come out before the election. no one was thinking of paying stormy daniels until the "access hollywood" tape. no one was caring about melania trump before the "access hollywood" tape came out in mid-october. it was only that event that made it critical to suddenly pay the

hush money before the election. long way of saying that there was very strong evidence that was produced last week on this election conspiracy component and what is going to be coming up this week is going to be about the -- some things a lot more technical but a lot stronger, which is the false business records, which is the reimbursement of the $130,000 to michael cohen for having made those hush money payments. >> andrew, it is donny. just 10,000 feet up from the last few days. there is a lot to come still, particularly michael cohen. how would you grade right now, ten looking like a conviction, one looking like an acquittal. where do you see it based on what you've seen so far? >> you know, that's always a hard thing to know, what's going to happen with a jury. you're just not in their head. >> sure. >> if i compare it to other cases when i was a prosecutor,

i've also been a defense lawyer, so far, this is a very strong case. i think hope hicks really filled a hole in the case that i think a lot of people were looking to see how the d.a. was going to fill that hole. was donald trump aware of the hush money payments? there is no question that michael cohen paid them, but was donald trump aware of it? hope hicks said that she had a conversation with donald trump where he acknowledged that he knew about the hush money payments. in fact, said it was a good thing michael cohen did that so that it didn't happen before the election. so far, they're doing really well. what remains to be seen is, can they show that donald trump was aware of the false business records? that's really the critical link, but they haven't started that

yet. i think they'll start on that this week. so far, it's been a -- it just shows such experience on the part of the d.a., that he really put together, that he put up his a-team, in how it is going to far. >> super quick, from what you're seeing in terms of the pacing so far, how long do you think this is going to go? >> love that question. really fast. remember, this team was the team that did the trump organization tax case about a year and a half ago. that was lightning speed. that is a sign of a very experienced team, which is you go in and go out. you do not put on evidence that you do not need. that only gives the defense something more to shoot at. i think the biggest witness that is going to take time is michael cohen. mostly because of cross-examination. i think, you know, in a week from now, i could easily see the

state being done. >> wow. >> i think they're going to now be racing to finish. >> former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann, as always, thank you so much for your analysis this morning. >> a week, that's surprising. >> that could be fast. still ahead on "morning joe," former homeland security secretary jeh johnson is standing by. he joins us next to weigh in on the protests and police crackdowns that we've been seeing on college campuses nationwide. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

39 past the hour. more dramatic confrontations between protesters and police at college campuses across the weekend. the unrest impacting

commencement ceremonies and forcing some schools to cancel graduation. >> these were the same, a lot of the same students who didn't have graduation four years ago because of covid. >> nbc news correspondent maggie vespa is at the university of chicago with the latest. >> reporter: this morning, amid mounting chaos on america's college campuses, another round of violent clashes between police and pro-palestinian protesters. >> shame on you! >> reporter: at the university of virginia saturday, officers in riot gear pushed demonstrators and sprayed them with what officials say is pepper spray. 25 were arrested according to the university. across the country at the university of southern california, sunday, close to 100 officers cleared a camp usc's president said protesters had rebuilt. adding, areas of campus were blocked. people were harassed, and iconic trojan symbols were defaced. this had to stop. these latest flash points

following weeks of clashes at roughly 75 campuses nationwide, according to a count by nbc news. arrests now topping 2,400 as demonstrators demand schools divest from israel. tensions rippling into the commencement season. over the weekend at northeastern, one ceremony was interrupted as a protester covered in fake blood stormed the stage before being taken away by security. >> we respect your passion and your opinions. we respect your right to voice them in the appropriate setting. >> reporter: this morning, columbia rethinking its commencement plans. while a final decision has not been made, a source at the university telling nbc news, the main graduation ceremony is slated to be canceled. two members of the student government saying it is due to security concerns. this after usc made the same call. new york's mayor pushing back. >> i don't think we should allow anything to get in our normal way of life.

>> i completely agree. these students, we're allowing a small percentage of protesters, a very small percentage, to push aside graduation ceremonies for 99.5% of the other students there. that doesn't seem fair. if there are people that interrupt, that can be taken care of. people can wait. but, my gosh, to take this away from students that have worked so hard -- >> i can't believe it. >> -- over four, five years to graduate, i think, you know what, put your head down. be adults. figure out how to give these students the graduation they deserve. and understand you may be interrupted several times. have security there to politely take those out. >> i think it could be

complicated, let's put it that way. >> could be. >> joining us now, former secretary of homeland security in the obama administration, jeh johnson. he is a trustee at columbia university. columbia has authorized him to speak about last week's events. talk about your thoughts on graduation at columbia this year. should it be canceled? >> well, a decision on that, mika, i suspect, is eminent. to be announced. there are a range of considerations. joe is absolutely right. we're talking about the class of 2024, which graduated high school in 2020. they did not have a high school graduation because of covid. everyone wants to be able to celebrate their achievements at columbia and elsewhere. but we're in the midst of high anxiety, demonstrations, protest, and i know the administration at columbia is trying to work through all of that. i suspect that an announcement

on what we're going to do eminent. >> jeh, i'm curious your thoughts as a columbia grad, as a columbia trustee, about what happened over the past several weeks. you're also a lawyer, so you understand free speech. >> yeah. >> it's not absolute. >> correct. >> you have time, place, manner. >> yup. >> limitations to free speech. i'm just curious, what could columbia have done better? these other schools, what could they have done better? what have we all learned, and how do we allow students to protest peacefully but not in a way that disrupts the entire student population or makes jewish students or maybe next time it's muslim students, black students, hispanic students. >> yeah. >> how do we allow protests to

move forward in a way that doesn't threaten other students or make them feel like their physical safety is on the line? >> joe, i can tell you that the set of decisions that president shafik, the president of columbia, had to work through over the last couple of weeks are the most difficult decisions i think i've seen in or out of government. they were emotional high stakes. there are several overriding principles you have to bring to bear. one is what you just said. there is no constitutional right that is unqualified. the first amendment guarantees free speech, freedom of assembly. a university, a city, a village, a town always has to be able to regulate time, place, and manner. the other overriding consideration is the administration of a college or university. for them,rustees, the safety and welfare of the

students is paramount. the safety and welfare of the university is paramount. parents send their kids off. they're a full 18, 19, 20 years old, but parents want to know that, in our care, in our trust, they're going to be safe. calling in the police department, the nypd, was a very difficult decision. it's part of columbia's heritage that we don't call the police. any time you bring the police into a tense situation like this, joe, it carries risk. i'm a product of my generation. i remember kent state. deep in the recesses of my mind, i also remember atika, too. we had to call the police once things escalated to vandalism, the occupation of hamilton hall. we had no choice. fortunately, the nypd acted with great professionalism in

removing those who occupied hamilton hall. now, we begin the healing process. it's my hope and the hope of all of us associated with columbia. >> mr. secretary, before i ask you a question, i want to respond to one thing in that setup piece, from northeastern. that man who was doing the thing with the -- and the person up there says, we appreciate you passion. why do we walk around with kid gloves? if he was screaming, "kill blacks," nobody would say, we appreciate your passion. therein lies the problem. i'll bring it back to your question. why, immediately, was it not an issue to bring in the police? why was it a hard decision? they're not only breaking the law, they're performing hate crimes. they are stoking violence. if it was against any other group, the police would be brought in. why was that a tough decision?

>> donny, as i said, any time you introduce the police into a situation, it carries risk. escalation of violence. i know president shafik hoped for a resolution of the protesters' demands. we tried that. we failed. then things escalated. we brought in the police. they mobilized very, very quickly. they were very professional in what they had to do. going back to your broader point, in my mind, there is a very clear distinction between protest, demonstrations, the exercise of the first amendment, to highlight the plight of the palestinians in gaza, versus demonstrations, placards, signs that spew hate, he hate all jews, that spew anti-semitic messages. i always use the civil rights movement as a model for this. highlighting the plight of african-americans in this

country without broadcasting, "we hate all whites," for example, you saw none of that in the civil rights movement. nor did you see the masks, frankly. civil disobedience, the essence of civil disobedience is you may be violating some local alabama state order, but you do so in a civil way. you accept the consequences. we saw that, for example, in the edmund pettis bridge. that moved the conscience of the nation. when you mask yourself, you dehumanize yourself and spew hate. i think it is a setback. in highlighting the cause for the palestinian people, this is turning into a domestic political issue. it is turning into another law and order. >> right. >> like we had in 1968. look what happened. richard nixon got elected and the vietnam war raged on another four years. >> in fact, when we were talking about the protests and the

violence and the law breaking on college campuses, and there was law breaking on college campuses, even no that may offend some for me to say, to tell the truth, there was, it actually took the palestinian plight off the front pages. >> yeah. >> since things have calmed down, we're again talking about rafah. >> yes. >> we're again talking about famine. we're again talking about the bombing that killed 14,000 children, 15,000 children. so, yeah, there was that distraction. i do, though, i want you to explain this, jeh, because you have a unique perspective that a lot of us don't, and that is the fact that had this -- whendon't. the fact is when this happened in florida, it was must easier for the president of florida to say we're going to clean this out. we're not a day school center, boom. he cleaned it out.

he didn't have to worry about the faculty trying to get fired. it gets more complicated at a place like columbia, and we need to understand this. why didn't the police get sent in the first day? because you actually had members of the faculty that were actually encouraging the disruptions of the campus or actually encouraging the protests, let me say, in some instances, encouraging law-breaking. so there was a segment of fak it that was ready to censure or suggest that the president be fired, and it was a much more difficult balancing act for columbia's president than it may have been for florida's president or if this had happened at alabama or happened at, say, nebraska. >> joe, that's absolutely right. every large college and university has its own character, its own dynamic. columbia is one of the largest

universities in the country. it's right smack dab in the middle of new york city, the media capital of the world. we have a very, very diverse large student population. it's essentially an international student population. we have a very vocal faculty, faculty senate, university senate with their own views, and part of the columbia history is we don't call the new york city police department. we had. done so on a large scale since 1968, and so you put all that together. it presents a unique set of very complicated highly emotional decisions. i expect university of florida is different, ucla. morehouse college where i went to college, graduated, is different where president biden is speaking in a week or two. each school and university has its own character. columbia was and is especially

complex, and i compliment our president for working through all of these very, very complicated emotional issues to get to where we are. >> former homeland security saurt and columbia university trustee jeh johnson. thank you very much. coming up, we'll going to speak to an author about how things are changing america and how the latino voter plays a crucial role in the elections. we're back in two minutes. crucial role in the elections. we're back in two minutes. while i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business.

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if anything has come out of hurricane maria is that it has brought together our allies in

the united states with puerto rico. and now together we cannot be stopped. >> they're living in a hotel. they're looking for a place, they're looking for jobs, that you're looking for schools for their kids, and on top of that we're telling them, oh, [ bleep ], and this is a historical election, and you got to be involved. >> in november -- cannot allow the people that care -- >> longtime community activist luis miranda jr. encouraging a group of puerto ricans living in florida to make their voices heard at the ballot box in the 2024 election. luis joins us now. he's the author of a book that

will be released tomorrow, "relentless." it's great to have you on the show this morning. >> luis, thank you so much for being with us. there's so much attention being paid to hispanic voters because they are changing this country, the shape of the country, where it's going politically. and right now you hear about the battle of both parties to try to get latino voters to move in their direction. from what you've seen as a community activist, what are the issues that matter the most to the latino voters that you work with day in and day out? >> thank you for having me here. in fact, our issues are the normal issues that working-class families worry about. we worry about inflation. we're worrying about the education of our kids.

we're concerned about housing. we worry about immigration. it's the usual issues. and historically we have voted democratic, but we've always been a persuadable voter, not necessarily a base voter. that's what we forget. we cannot go to latino communities every four years to remind them they have to come out and vote. we have to talk to them and involve them politically continuously. >> luis, congrats on the book. tell us what that would mean for democrats, for president biden's re-election democratic campaign. how should they get involved and in part two, we've shown the clip of you in florida. some now think because of the abortion rulings, maybe it's in play. what do you think? >> i believe that we have to engage with the latino community. it's the only way to do it. and it's not that difficult.

president biden with everything that he has done with the unemployment being as low as it is, it's running against a racist. someone who gets on a stage and says that we're poisoning the lot of this country. so it's to remind people constantly what he has done with this administration in getting us out of the pandemic and remind people that we're running against a racist. >> so, luis, to that poichblts, we can't pay too much attention to polls, but in this cycle, trump is doing better with latino voters. please explain that then. >> first, you need to look at the methodology of those polls. are we a very large segment of that poll or are we a miniscule number based on the methodology?

the second thing we have to worry is were those interviews done in spanish or were they only done in english? and that's going to change the numbers. we know that latinos -- and i talk about it in "relentless" many, many times are not a monolithic group. it's based on where we're coming from, what are the political conditions of our countries of origin generationally. so there are many factors affecting the latino vote, and republicans usually get anywhere from 25% to 35% of the latino votes. so if they're within that margin, little has changed. >> you know, luis, i'm so glad you've underlined the fact that for too long people have looked at the latina community, the hispanic community as monolithic.

i remember the 1990s talking to my democratic friends in congress saying, you understand that hispanics don't just care about immigration. they care about a lots of things. you also understand that -- and it's the same thing reverend al and i talk about all the time -- with a lot of whack voters, hispanics are conservative with a small "c." many are conservative with a small "c." so this idea of like the dnc knows exactly how all hispanics are going to vote and it's a one-size-fits-all approach, it doesn't work, and also it's offensive to a lot of hispanic voters. >> and that's why the importance to talk to latinos constantly,

and depending on where they live generationally and where they come from, the discussion may be a bit different. but what we know about latinos -- and it's the reason why i wrote the book -- we believe that government has an important role to play in our lives, that government can give a helping hand when you need it, and then you're left to your own devices to make it. that's why we came to this country. but we are always looking at government as a possibility for help, and that's why we haven't voted republican ever in very large numbers. >> the new book is entitled "relentless: my story of the latino spirit that is transforming america." luis miranda jr., thank you so much for being on the show this

morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> we really appreciate it. and the third hour of "morning joe" continues now. well, it's the first show of spring, so we'll start tonight with puppy murder. in a new book, south dakota governor christie gnome revealed she once shot a dog that was untrainable. that's insane. if a dog is untrainable, you don't shoot it. you give it to president biden. insiders are saying noem seen here wearing the hair of that dog now has zero chance of being trump's running mate. i don't know. something tells me trump would be fully supportive of killing disobedient pets. >> it keeps on going and she keeps on doubling down. >> first cleanup on aisle 4. >> and knocks down everything in aisle 5. another possible running made

for donald trump making headlines this morning. we're going to show you what senator tim scott of south carolina had to say about accepting the results of this year's election. more importantly and more to the point, to show you where the republican party is in 2024, what he said about not -- or what he didn't say actually about accepting the will of the people. >> it's just disturbing, and i guess we should except it at this point, but i will continue to be shocked. >> it's a sign of trump's party. we'll show you that in a little bit. >> also, we'll get you caught up on donald trump's hush money trial, the criminal trial, which resumes later this morning in new york city. it comes after emotional testimony on friday from the former president's longtime aide hope hicks. good morning on this monday morning, may 6. welcome to "morning joe." on this show we have "way too

early" host jonathan le meefrmt ed luce is with us. rogers chair and the machinery president at vanderbilt university historian jon meacham. >> we met, by the way. >> we understand that meacham was a difficult student. >> that's what we were told yesterday by someone who taught him shakespeare at university of the south. >> and it was a head-shaking response to how difficult -- >> difficult. i think she may have just been saying you already knew everything, and so, exactly. >> that's probably what it was, yeah. >> or thought you knew everything. yes, okay. >> that is definitely true, yeah. >> yeah? >> also with us this morning, calmness to associate editor david ignatius is with us. he's the author of the new move

out tomorrow, adequate phantom orbit." he'll tell us about that. >> these are so exciting, david. the amazing thing about your books and the few people who try to do this but can't quite do it as well as you do, there are often things you can write in these books that you can't write in nonfiction books. it's an accumulation of a lot of things that you've learned through the years that you just can't write because it's been off the record. it's been deep background. you've been, as meacham, places you shouldn't have gone. >> crazy situations. >> but you put it altogether in these extraordinary books. >> i had a friend tell me, david, you tell more truth in

your fiction than in your journalism. i don't know about that. but we're talking about space warfare. ukraine is the first space war. those are the kinds of things i'm trying to deal with in this new novel. >> wonderful. we'll talk more about that. >> you talked ripped from the headlines. i was reading an article yesterday specifically about the fear of putin's war in space and what countries across the world are trying to do to catch up with it. >> let's get to our top story this morning. two new polls find president joe biden narrowly leading donald trump in november's general election race. in a fiftd from abc news and ipsos, biden is up four points, 49-45%. in the second from npr, pbs, and marist college, biden holds a five-point lead, 52% to 47% among registered voters who say

they definitely plan to vote in november. that is still within the margin of error. what do you make at this point? it's kind of hard to take any poll that seriously, but what is it telling you in terms of the state of the race and also the fact that it's tight given the options? >> well, these polls in may just don't make a huge difference, but i will tell you, when i was a candidate myselfing i would take a poll from time to time. you want to see -- you want to test the temperature. and, again, as i've always said, you want to look at trends. we saw a couple of months ago, joe biden far behind in a lot of polls. these show something quite different, that he's now moving ahead of donald trump, again, among the likely voters. polls of adults, polls of

registered voters this far out, you really -- you might as well be watching housewives of beverly his, which i hear has really heated up quickly this season. but something as you dig into these polls makes this election unique, at least in america. i think it's the way we're going. ed luce, i want to go to you really quickly. the "financial times," i think, a couple of months ago talked about the approval ratings of candidates, presidential candidates, incumbents, just collapsed. and so if you're trying to predict how elections turned out, don't look at that. you'll have as much luck as they did in france when they were saying macron in the low 30s and ended up winning 57%, 58% of the vote. we see that here, especially the abc poll where joe biden's

approval ratings are as low as they've been. and on issues, donald trump doing better than the president in many areas, but then you start asking about who has better character, who's a better person, who understands people like you, and those sort of questions. and joe biden wins. in some of those, he wins by a great deal. those approval ratings like the "financial times" reported several months ago, low approval ratings, and yet he still prevails, especially against a candidate like donald trump. is that just where we are now because of social media and everything else, that you're just going to have presidential incumbents with low approval ratings that may end up like macron winning comfortably? >> yeah, i think that's well put, joe. i mean the governments all around the democratic world have low approval ratings relative to

most of the west of the west. america is the fattest growing economy, is doing far better, in fact, than countries across the atlantic, and yet biden's ratings are as low as they are there. so there is a general just anti-incumbency feeling across the world. we're not really at the choice stage where most voters are focusing like we do obsessionally here in the beltway. i think once we do get those polls, i've always had -- after labor day, i've always had the hunch this is going to be a referendum on trump, not on biden, because trump will make it a referendum on bind. he can't help himself. you may think i'm being a bit pan depressiant, but i think

biden has got the edge here. i'm not going to live to regret those words. >> while you were talking, i wrote a note to mika saying, i fear that's being a bit hand-glossing. >> it's weird. we almost said the same thing to each other. >> we did. it's really strange. >> it's like finishing each other's sentences. >> it's beautiful. in 2016 we look back. that was not about donald trump actually. that was about hillary clinton, on clinton, the bushes, the people who have run the country since 1980. and then 2020, obviously a referendum on donald trump. with all that he's saying, the fact that he has to say something shocking and new every day just to sort of amp up his base, 2024 will also be at the

end of the day an referendum on donald trump. >> that make it is a referendum on the fact for our better angels, which is not panglossiant -- that's a conservative group -- and these instincts that the former president is articulating. he's saying it all. so for those of us who believe that this is about democracy, democratic norms, a continuation substitution that for all its imperfections continues to enable us to try to create a more perfect union, all of which shouldn't necessarily be on the ballot, right? i mean, ordinarily we're voting on a role of the state in the marketplace, we're voting perhaps on the role of how we project force in the world.

those are the ordinary political choices. this is not that. this is about do you believe in a we the people? do you believe in i am your retribution. and, so, yes there's a referendum on trump. and presidential politics is a choice. it's a binary choice. although, i don't know if the polling shows this, how the third-party candidates are doing is going to matter enormously. you know, i believe 49-45. that makes some sense to me. but when you introduce the other possibilities here, who does that hurt is really the important question, and as you said, really in about seven or eight states. >> and in this pole at least, the abc poll, even with all the other candidates introduced, joe

biden still needs donald trump. it is, though, still in the range of the margin of rohr. you know, jonathan lemire, i wanted to follow up on what ed luce said offhandedly about the american economy being superior to all other economies across the globe. it's not even close. as "the wall street journal" said, the united states is the envy of the world. the emeritus said 2023 was the loser's economy. we can pick through the numbers. we've been complaining for the past year that the economy is too strong, that it's too hot, that it's pushing up inflation because it's so strong. but, you know, people across the world are looking at our economy and post-covid and wondering how in the world we did it because

it is so superior to other economies. both our friends and our enemies. >> no question. in america's post pandemic economy, the enemy of the world. some signs last week, that perhaps some of the heat was cooling off, that might have allowed the fed to tweak interest rates. unclear whether that will happen. let's be clear. national polls are only an outline. a week back had trump up five or six. most are going in biden's direction now. as you know, this is not a campaign that will be run in the general election. i is about the battleground states. trump up more than biden, but virtually within the state of the margin of error. we heard over the weekend from some republicans that minnesota and virginia may be plagued. we should note, he came close to

minnesota previously. david ig nation, we know the biden team, there's a couple of pickups they hope to get. florida, more of a reach, but at the very least, they'll force republicans to spend resources. i know you had conversations with senior biden folks over the weekend. gives your insights as to where they think the race stands? >> the interesting thing about this with my biden campaign officials show that a lot of people who voted for joe biden in 2020 aren't convinced yet that donald trump will be the republican nominee. once they become convinced of it, there's more of a chance they'll be talking about it. there's not a referendum with joe biden on all of the weaknesses, but it's on who the president was for four years, donald trump. and you'll remind people

systematically what that was like. you bring back all the memories that people had. let's not forget in 2022 when republicans thought they would have a red wave, they didn't. why? because people look back at the trump years with a lot of distaste. i think that's basically their idea. one interesting thing, jonathan, is we think that with trump tied down in court in new york, scowling at everybody, looking like he's miserable, that's probably good for the campaign for biden. but actually the biden campaign would rather have him out of the country saying things that then get him in trouble. the "time" magazine interview is the perfect example. they feel like every time he's out there on the loose, he says something that remindings people this is how he would governor and that's what they feel they've got going. coming up, israel is

brushing back against the u.s. and the latest from jeer us lem next on "morning joe." from jee next on "morning joe." complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

joom nbc news and the "associated press" reports that cia director bill burns may have to travel to israel in an effort to free hostages from the gaza strip. netanyahu said israel was not prepared to end the war permanently, saying such a move would leave hamas in power. meanwhile a defense forces spokesman said around 100,000 palestinian civilians have been told to evacuate the city of rafah as israel appears poised to launch a new operation there. a senior arab negotiator directly involved in the talks with israel and the united states tells nbc news that the cease-fire negotiations are not over and have not collapsedlet it is not clear when or whether a major rafah operation could

begin. adding further complication to the cease-fire talks, this is an attack that happened yesterday near a southern border crossing into gaza, which killed four israeli soldiers and injured at least ten others. hamas took responsibility for the assault that israeli and military officials say involved roughly 14 rockets and mortars. the idf in turn destroyed the weapon involved in carrying out the attack as well as other hamas military infrastructure. there's no kitchen whether the crossing itself was the target of the attack. joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, what more can you tell us this morning? >> reporter: so it seems we are at a crossroads right now. there had been some progress

over the last several days to try to reach a cease-fire. the talks have fallen apart over the weekend, and now there's annest to cobble some of them back together. but there are real differences between hamas's position and benjamin netanyahu's position and his government's position. so we either have a deal, and there's definitely an effort to try to reach a deal, or the deal is blown up and israeli forces go in to rafah. both seem likely and pressure is being put on both of these fronts right now. so let me start with -- they're absolutely inter-related. let me start on the cease-fire front and the pressure being put on rafah and you mention the evacuation orders. first there was an attempt to reach a cease-fire. there were hamas negotianegotia egyptian negotiators, all meeting in various locations, kyrie primarily, and hamas says

it wants to make a deal. it was are ready to make a deal. israel didn't send a negotiator to that forum, and the talks fell apart. they fell apart because the two sides don't agree on what the deal is ultimately going to achieve. what hamas says it wants is an end to this round of fighting, an end to this current conflict, not an end globally to the palestinian/israeli conflict, but an end to the fighting, and it wants israeli troops to pull back. that would leave effectively hamas some sort of government in charge, and in exchange for that, for israel p agreeing to end the conflict and pulling out, there would be hostage releases. the israeli government says it will not accept that. it will only give a temporary cease-fire days and weeks in order to get hostages out and

would continue go after hamas and palestinians. including representatives, they say, that doesn't make any sense. they would have to lease the only leverage it's holding, about a hundred of them still believed to be alive. they say once you lease them, we're still going to go after you and try to eliminate you. the main city is rafah. there was an attack in that area yesterday carried out by hamas that you just mentioned. that is also where the hamas leadership is holding out, is the last place still under hamas' effective control. they're there, they don't want to see them move in in a major way. president biden says he doesn't want to see the israeli military move in in a ma i superior way. it would with be a catastrophe.

but he says the only way to eliminate hamas, take over by power, is to go in through rafah. today we saw the first concrete action israel may do that. dropping leaflets, messages to hundreds of thousands, telling them to leave because a major military action is coming. the major military action in rafah hasn't started yet. it could be a warning. it could be part of a negotiating tactic because like i said earlier, both things are related. it could be israelis are trying to put pressure on hamas saying not only are we prepared to come into rafah, we're already doing it. so you'der agree too the -- to the terms right now. we'll see if there's some sort of deal perhaps emerging in the next several days. coming up, donald trump is

due back in criminal court just minutes from now. we'll have a live report from lower manhattan as the ex-president's trial enters a new week. "morning joe" is back in a moment. new week "morning joe" is back in a moment sup? -who are you? i'm your inner child. get in. listen, what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance? how about you love and accept this?

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gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. ja donald trump complained none of the supporters with with him. that's not true. what about all of those cops? >> former president trump seen here definitely not sleeping. he's probably just praying. former president trump for the first time in his trial wrote a message on a yellow post-it note and handed it to his lawyer while he was make ang argument. the post-it simply "can't pay

you." >> didn't trump say he wasn't asleep. he was closing his beautiful blue eyes and taking it all in yep, taking it all in. on friday trump's former confidante and longtime aide took the stand. hope hicks spoke about what it was like during the 2016 election campaign and how the alleged hush money payments caming. let's bring in lisa rubin. lisa, everyone was talking about sort of the emotional part of this where hope broke down, but what is it that she brought to the table in terms of what the prosecution is looking to prove? >> i think, mika, that hope was the most valuable witness on the context of what was happening in the campaign in october 2016 that would have led michael cohen and donald trump to believe that a payoff to stormy dan walls was not just advisable

but absolutely necessary to preserve his chances. i had a chance to reread the testimony over the weekend once we have the transcript, and the timeline that she puts into motion is absolutely devastating. it starts with being notified of the access hoyle tape by "the washington post." she's the first person in the campaign to understand that "the washington post" has the tape and the transcript on october 7th. once the tape is released and the article is published, so many things happen in rapid succession. a number of american republicans quickly december associate themselves from the campaign. you've got another tape and rumor about it coming to her the next day on october 8th. then by october 9th. trump has his next debate. the first question out of the gate is about the "access hollywood" tape. by october 10th, "the new york times" is publishing reports of

other problematic behavior that trump has had with women. and by the 15th and 16th, trump is again on the offensive, pushing aback against these other women's stories, not stories involved stormy daniels and karen mcdougal but others what have accused trump of misconduct shecht's taken us through in rapidfire progreg, one thing after another from the "access hollywood" tape, which they cannot get out from under. it's no wonder after seeing her testimony, michael cohen, david pecker, and others are engineering these payment settlements because they needed the problem to go away as opposed to continuing throughout november and up until election day, mika. >> so "politico" says in their

story reporting on this, hope hicks offered the defense their first glimmer of hope and says trump's lawyer's plan is toe text trump's families. prosecutors are taking the fraudulent business records and violations of election laws. there were parts of her testimony where she actually did say he was doing it to protect the family, right? >> yes and no. i would say she said it was a motivation, but not the motivation or eve the principal motivation. it's like having two hungry mouths to feed. if the defense is one of them, she gave them a nice and tasty dessert, but saved the bulk of it for the prosecution. hope hicks at the very end of

her testimony describes the conversation she had with donald trump very shortly thereafter where he told her he had spoken to cohen and cohen had made that payment out of the guideness of his heart to protect trump from false accusations. hope didn't believe that, but what she said next was the more devastating thing. trump said to her, i think it's better that this came out now instead of during the campaign and michael had. made that payment at all. she was conveying for donald trump. the most important factor was not melania's feelings but preserving his electoral chances. >> lisa, let's look ahead to this week. what do we know about who we might hear from and is there more gage detail orders to get through? i believe there was going to be

a second hearing for some gag order rules broken. >> let's start with the second part. there was that second hearing. i do not believe that the punishment for the alleged violations will be incarceration in part, mika, because they happened before the first hearing, and so if donald trump is going to be warned forhis criminal contempt, this wouldn't have done it. in terms of what to expect this week, i think it's really anybody's guess, but i feel like hope hicks is the last within at least for right now to testify to the formation of the conspiracy to get donald trump elected by paying off these wimg and that we should be moving into the real heart of the matter here, which is the the falsification. who are we likely to see?

a number of trump employees involved in the general ledger statements. we also hear from trump's treasury skpoec active assistant in the whus. you may ask what does she have to do with all of this? she has to place the nine chokes in front of donald trump to sign. there's a discussion, how do we send these back and forth. count on them being a critical witness to establishing that tup has knowledge and participation in this portion of the crime, which as i said, is really at the heart of what the d.a.has to prove. coming up on the heels of a big rally. cnbc's an drou ross sorkin explains how the fight against

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equipment that allows ukraine to keep fighting in this war, its targeting, intelligence assessment is happening through the space systems. russians who realize that are finding new ways to take those systems down. my new book opens with a russian scientist who believes he has discovered a russian/chinese kill switch that can turn off the gps system on which we rely for basically every aspect of our commercial lives. gps runs transportation. every cellphone connects with gps. so he sees this as kind of a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of the russian/chinese, and he decides he has to tell them about it. they don't do anything with it. weeks pass and nothing happens. and the question that we open

the book with is why? the book then pulls back and looks at the root of this man's obsession with space systems, his relationship with an american woman who's a cia officer, and moves toward the prenlt moment and the ukraine war is going on, and all these issues are really a matter of life and death for our character and for our countries. but i think the basic takeaway, joe and mika, is we're entering a new world in warfare. it's the -- the next war will begin in space, may end in space, and these are systems that people haven't really begun to think about. the pleasure of being a novelist at the time -- i'm not a journalist -- i get to think in a broader way about what's coming and the eric kerrs who are driving it. >> "the washington post's" david ig nation, thank you. his new novel, "phantom orbit"

is officially out tomorrow. thank you, david, for coming on this morning. coming up, our next guest talks about the status of the cease-fire talks between israel and hamas. peter baker joins us when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back

this morning. this morning.

your body is nothing but a host of org annisms ready to cause an infection, cause an infection, cause an infection. >> he must think i'm really

crazy. >> think aren't exactly my strong suit. >> i swear to god he's so schmitt snoon how do you know? >> because i have eyes. >> why is it so easy for me to talk to you? >> maybe because our hearts are broken in the same places. >> i bet if you guys actually kissed, you would not be thinking about the -- >> millions of microbes. >> that was a look at part of the trailer of the new movie titled "turtles all the way down." the film follows the live of teenager aza holmes as she struggles to hold text her mental closest friendships and new relationship, all while learning that a fulfilling and happy life is possible for her. joining us is the author of

"turtles all the way down" john green and the director hannah marks. tell us about the backstory, the origin of the book. >> i've lived with obsessive-compulsive disorder for almost all of my life and had major depression. when i wrote it "the fault in our stars" had come out. it was really the only thing i could write about. i wasn't doing have well, so it was an act of trying to find my way through. >> talk to us about the decision of talking about your ocd in the book. was it challenging, liberating, a little bit of both? >> a little bit of both. it's hard to talk about my own

mental health in the context of fiction, but i wanted to find some direct form of expression for the pain that comes with these obsessive thoughts. frankly, hollywood has done a terrible job of portraying ocd and books have as well. >> i represent all of hollywood. >> you're the stand-in for this moment. the challenge john speaks about of trying to present ocd, a mental health issue and do it in an appropriate and accurate way? >> so much of it came from john's book, which was so beautifully written. that gave us a strong foundation. i also struggled with similar issues to aza, so i connected with her as a character right away. we wanted to show ocd represented as we experience it. not every case is the same, of

course, but i think this was a really good step forward. we both talk about shows like "monk" and what we feel are less accurate representations. this felt like the next step. >> this is about educating and also destigmatizing? >> i think destigmatizing. i don't think we view it as homework, this movie, or a psa. i just think it's something people can relate to, especially younger generations. >> tell us about the plot. >> it's a cool story. it's not just about mental health. it's also a murder story, a romance, a buddy movie. aza is experiencing all this for the first time, but really through the lens of her ocd. >> hannah made such a good movie.

she made a beautiful film that's really funny and warm and big hearted and at the same time finds a way to tell the truth about what these experiences are really like. >> let's take a look at the film where the main characters aza and daisy embark on a canoe expedition. >> this water has to be like 50% european. >> that's the good half. ♪♪ >> i'm kidding. >> this water is teeming with bacteria. >> what a day. the sun is shining, canoes floating. we're about to live the american dream, benefitting from someone else's misfortune. >> there are some laughs in this. >> for sure. hannah made a really funny

movie. the best friend who plays daisy in the movie is so good. people living with mental illness are still living with it. they still have rich, complex lives. if you take away anything from the movie, there is hope even when your brain tells you there isn't and a lot of life left to live. >> john is so great at writing humorous subject matter with levity and optimism. i hope people see it and laugh and are moved by it. >> the movie "turtles all the way down" is available to stream on max. thank you both. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." we'll be right back with more "morning joe."

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♪♪ welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. joining us now, peter baker, reverend al sharpton and jonathan lemire as well. >> last hour we had jeh johnson here. he was talking about columbia making some tough decisions and having to balance a lot of different interests. it sounds like columbia has come up with a compromise for graduation. >> this morning we've been following these developments on college campuses across the

country after weeks of protests over the israel/hamas war in gaza. it's impacted graduations in a number of places. let's bring in antonia hilton, who has the latest on the plans at columbia. what decision did they come up with? >> columbia has just announced minutes ago that they're going to cancel their main-stage graduation, similar in fashion to what usc has decided to do. instead, they're going to focus on individual school-level ceremonies and class days. this means the power and propulsion around the graduation are going to be in the hands of school administrators and the students themselves. nbc was the first to report last week that these conversations were in motion. school officials told us they were concerned about security. student government leaders told

us they were concerned about columbia's president speaking to the crowd in that classic ceremony, that that could create quite a difficult situation. there could be protests that would disrupt the day for students and families. they are urging families that they don't have to change their travel plans, but certainly this is going to cause some upset today. >> this seems like a good compromise to me. you're talking about like, for instance, the engineering school will have their own ceremonies, political school. they'll still get recognition. for instance, when i graduated from law school, it was a smaller ceremony of 200 students and parents.

it was still special. >> that's exactly what we're talking about. students are going to get to wear the graduation garb, get diplomas and interact with deans and school leaders with whom they're already very familiar. they're not going to have that single commencement celebration. columbia planned to have one in the morning and one in the evening. the school's president would be addressing the schools. the concern is that you might not get some of the classic imagery of students in that large crowd being able to celebrate together. that may sound like a small thing, but you have to remember these undergrads when they graduated from high school in 2020, many were socially distanced, some in cars, some on

zoom and had to get their diploma later. especially for first-generation families, the parents of kids who never went to college, this is going to be difficult to process. >> jonathan lemire, maybe it's just me. maybe i'm a little grumpy at times with ceremonies. >> impatient. >> if your last name starts with s and you have this huge thing, mr. anderson, mr. anderson -- i'm serious. the smaller ceremonies are special. these are the professors and administrators, this is your community. maybe some people would love the huge ceremony, but this is

actually more personalized and dispersed. it sounds like a good compromise to me. you're a columbia grad. >> there's the individual college level and the individual school level graduation, known as class day. that's when you go up on the stage and get the diploma and the handshake. that is still going to happen. the larger commencement, there's no individual recognition. they just name a school, law school, business school, everyone stands up and sits back down. no one's name is read. traditionally the university president will give a speech. it's the individual classes and schools that get the speakers. i think that's right.

yes, it is, of course, a shame that everything could not happen. but if there were concerns of safety, if the sheer size of the university were a problem and the nypd were concerned, this feels like a reasonable compromise. >> i wonder who the speaker was. >> i don't know. you're talking about a famous alumni. maybe jonathan will go from college to college speaking. >> and be the interim speaker. >> that would be very exciting. breaking news from nbc this morning, again, columbia is going to forego the university-wide celebration and instead do it by schools. peter baker, i want to bring you in. let's expand this out to the news that was at the heart of these protests, and that is

what's going on in israel, what's going on in gaza. more importantly, this morning for the families of the hostages and also for those wanting a cease-fire, which i think are most americans, what's the very latest on the hostage negotiations and cease-fire negotiations. >> the weekend didn't produce the kind of agreement that families wanted. at this point, the white house and the biden administration aren't giving up. they say they're still working on it, still working through the details on the specific proposal on the table. they have not gotten a definitive no from hamas. both sides, of course, are posturing to some extent in order to get a stronger position in the negotiation. it's hard to read the tea leaves and see whether or not some of

the things are genuinely digging in or if they're trying to get to the best deal. this is hard. i think that everybody understands that time is running short. you saw the israelis are starting to talk about evacuating civilians out of rafah in preparation for something the biden administration would like to avoid. there's a lot on the table right now. >> it seems to me from news reports and reporting that we heard earlier this morning, there are two very conflicting positions hamas and the israeli government is taking. hamas wants a total end to the war that will keep them in power. that's obviously something that

will never be acceptable to israel. hamas will never be allowed to govern again in gaza, they just won't. on the other side, the israelis want the hostages back. they want a limited cease-fire. they've been talking about going into rafah and finishing hamas off. it's extraordinarily difficult. based on your reporting, where is the white house and the president on this? what direction do bill burns and tony blinken getting from the president? >> they've been trying to finesse it with a phrase called sustainable calm. the israelis have agreed to pursue a sustainable calm beyond the first temporary cease-fire. sometimes in diplomacy you have

a phrase or agreement that is not particularly precise so all sides can interpret it however they choose to. does sustainable calm mean the end to the war? the israelis are not willing to commit to that. obviously the americans would like that. maybe we'll get six weeks of calm, and during that period negotiate the next stage and a permanent end to the conflict. that's, of course, requiring a lot of good faith and trust among parties that don't have it for understandable reasons. it's a rubik's cube of diplomacy here. there's the hostages, the fighting, rafah, what happens afterwards, who governs gaza, what happens with the saudis,

what happens in terms of a two-state solution and reconstruction? so many different factors play into this. you can only do so much with any one agreement. >> jonathan lemire, we just got a breaking news alert updated a few minutes ago. israeli military warns thousands in rafah to evacuate. those warnings are continuing. i'm curious what the biden administration is doing right now in their talks with benjamin netanyahu and the israeli government regarding this. perhaps it's just leverage for negotiations. but if it is not, we're looking at warnings that would suggest

there's going to be an imminent attack on rafah. what's the administration doing? >> there's not a call scheduled between president biden and prime minister netanyahu. that could change at any time, but the two administrations are in constant contact. there's still some hope for this last-minute cease-fire for hostages, but that hope is fading. the u.s. could not have been clearer. they do not want an all-out assault on rafah. if it were to happen, there's some real discussion in the west wing of making changes to israeli policy, like holding back weapons sales. the president has been reluctant to do that. he still is, but he may not have a choice, aides tell me, depending on what happens in rafah.

if it is a limited strike, the u.s. has said they would bless that. they understand a limited strike to get hamas leaders. but if it is an all-out assault that is perceived to not safeguard civilians, i think we'll have the u.s. respond with some ferocity. i think we'll have some great global anger, fears of the region being in flames. this is a delicate moment in this conflict, one that netanyahu seems to be inflaming. those leaflets are coming. there's talk of this invasion soon. the israelis say it would still be a week or two before they have the assets in place to move in, so there's still a little bit of time. >> there's the option of the biden administration saying, if you do that, you're doing that without any u.s. weapons. >> that would be big. >> that would be problematic,

obviously. it's important for americans to understand while we have been very critical of benjamin netanyahu and the white house has been critical of benjamin netanyahu, the idea of leaving hamas in place in gaza as a governing force is not an option for the israeli people. regardless of who the prime minister of israel is, that would be their position. if hamas wants to leave gaza, i'm sure they would be open to that, but hamas will never govern gaza again. the israelis will never allow that to happen, whether it's benjamin netanyahu or the most liberal prime minister israel could find. >> as we follow this, we will, of course, be watching. biden is supposed to speak with benjamin netanyahu today. we'll see what comes out of that meeting. turning to politics now, we've been talking about the shifting attitudes happening in

america. some call it the trump effect, toward violence, toward cruelty and behavior that there was a day that it seemed unacceptable. we saw a number of examples in the past few days of the impact donald trump is having on the republican party and on political discourse. first, here is south dakota's republican governor kristi noem continuing to defend the anecdote that she talks about in her new book. she tells the story in her book of killing her 14-month-old puppy cricket, shooting it dead in a gravel pit. yesterday she seemed to suggest president biden's dog commander should meet a similar fate. >> you talk multiple times about it. in fact, at the end of the book, you say the very first thing you would do if you got to the white house that was different from joe biden is you'd make sure

joe biden's dog was nowhere on the grounds. commander, say hello to cricket. are you doing this to look tough? >> number one, joe biden's dog has attacked 24 secret service people. how many people is enough people to be attacked and dangerously hurt before you make a decision on a dog and what to do with it? >> he's not living at the white house anymore. >> that's a question the president should be held accountable to. >> you're saying he should be shot? >> what is the number? i would say about republicans criticizing me, these are the same republicans that criticized me during covid. they've criticized me when i made other decisions in south dakota to protect my state. >> glorifying violence also played out on another news network on friday during a discussion about the presidential medal of freedom. two hosts joked and laughed about the brutal attack on paul pelosi during a home invasion that fractured his skull in

2022. take a listen to this. >> it was probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice and gavin newsom. >> maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. [ laughter ] >> it's metal. rachel, we wish him well. >> reverend al, you have, again, somebody talking about killing a 14-month-old puppy, thinking it will make her look tough and then somehow conflating that with being able to deal with difficult situations in front of foreign leaders, in front of foreign dictators. and then you have on another news network punchlines about the savage attack with a hammer

on an 82-year-old man that almost killed him and joyful laughter. i would say this was limited just to this interaction on the network, but we have seen donald trump joke about this, paul pelosi almost being murdered for political reasons while the person is shouting, "where's nancy, where's nancy." when donald trump jokes about it, the audience laughs. it's moments like that that i ask the question who raised these people? who raised these people to laugh at the attempted murder of an 82-year-old man inside his own home? >> well, that is why i think we must be really, really careful and vocal about normalizing and

in some ways trying to make humor out of violence like it is acceptable behavior. let's not forget, before we get to governor kristi noem talking about how she shot her puppy, we have donald trump saying if he shot a human being on 5th avenue, his people would wrote for him anyway. people covered that like it was a normal presidential candidate statement. i think those of us, whether we're on the right or left, whatever our beliefs, need to come out loudly, particularly if it is people you're in agreement with and say, wait a minute, there is a line to cross in terms of violence. that's why i said i'm for what the students have done in terms of standing up for the people in gaza, but don't go to violence, because then you become equal in terms of how they try to project it. it may be different, but you don't need any violence that

would in any way act like any violence is acceptable. let's remember, joe and mika, donald trump started this by talking about i could shoot somebody on 5th avenue like it was nothing. he set the tone. then he said beat up people in his campaigns. those of us who believe in nonviolence or peaceful coexistence need to say no matter what side it is, that's unacceptable and should not be allowed in the political space. >> i'm trying to think how many years ago it's been that steve scalise was shot on a baseball field. i think it was a bipartisan baseball game. >> yeah. >> even now making a joke about it would be -- it's never -- >> well, there's nothing to joke about. >> there's absolutely nothing -- >> it's not about timing.

and, no, we're not snowflakes. this is disgusting behavior to laugh about a guy who was attacked and brutalized during a home invasion in the middle of the night. i would assume they're all still traumatized by that. why is that funny? >> he's still impacted and will be for the rest of his life. >> how in the world could that be funny? >> peter baker, we're not just talking about what happened on this news network over the weekend. this has actually been part of donald trump's stump speech where he'll make fun of paul pelosi and make fun of nancy pelosi and say, i wonder how he's doing right now. the audience will laugh. >> yeah. there's a crudeness to it and it has a certain appeal, i guess, to the crowd that reacts to it. it's about obviously candidates and politicians and media

figures but it's also about the audience. if we didn't react to it and we didn't cheer or laugh, they wouldn't do it, right? it's a reflection of the coarsening of the culture. if you look online, the number of people saying things online -- they would never say to you in person, by the way -- is remarkable. it's very disheartening. it's hard to see how you have a civil conversation in a country where the discourse has coarsened in such a way. >> you know, so much of it is online and so much of it is driven by donald trump. i'll tell you, rev, when i meet people on all sides of the political spectrum -- and i'm sure you find the same

thing -- you know, i guess i should knock on wood here, but they've been polite. most of them are polite. in person you can sit down and talk to people who might come up and say, hey, why are you saying this or why are you saying that, and you can sit and have a polite conversation person to person. for the most part, that's always been my experience. of course, once in a while somebody will shout something at you when you're walking past, but that's the exception and not the rule. social media brings a coarseness to this. let's call it out. it's donald trump that gives the permission structure to talk about the attempted murder of an 82-year-old man, and the audience laughs at him because this has become part of his entertainment scheme.

it's been since 2016, talking about violence, talking about second amendment solutions to shoot and kill hillary clinton so she can't appoint justices, talking about beating up people protesting and donald trump saying in the good old days they'd be taken out on a stretcher, or saying if you beat somebody up, i'll pay your legal bills. or praising a congressman for beating up a reporter because he asked a question about health care reform. donald trump has provided that permission structure. sadly, we're seeing it spread. other republicans are talking about committing acts of violence, whether it's laughing about paul pelosi getting hammered or saying rip somebody's hands that are glued, rip their skin off or throw them off of bridges. we're seeing this being mainstreamed in donald trump's republican party. >> that is the real threat.

it's being mainstreamed and it seems acceptable. people in leadership positions have to set the example themselves. i was saying to some young people last week, many years ago there was a black teenager killed in the bensonhurst section of brooklyn. one saturday a young white male ran out the crowd and stabbed me in the chest. they put me in the hospital. when he went on trial, i went to court and forgave him, not because it didn't traumatize me, but because i wanted to set an example because some of the young people in the neighborhood were talking about we're going to burn the town down, they stabbed reverend al. i still have the surgical scar. you've got to be bigger than your impulses if you're going to

lead. donald trump has fed the wrong impulses in this country and has in many ways weaponized people. he needs to be called out on that by republicans. we on the left should call out people who violently protest. those that come in and try and inflame it for anarchistic ways, we need to say, no, that's not how we do things. >> it would really help if republicans would step up at this moment in our history. >> peter baker, what are you reporting on today? >> well, there's so much to cover. i wrote a story over the weekend about the zeitgeist in washington as they come to realize donald trump may come back and how a lot of bold-name faces you would recognize who didn't want to say it on the

record engage in gallows humor these days about where they would go. if trump comes back, where would you go? people say, well, i'm researching my family. i have irish roots, it turns out. i may be able to get a passport. let's buy some property overseas. some of them are joking, some of them are serious. it's the nervousness in washington about a candidate coming back who talks about being a dictator, who talks about putting general milley to death, who talks about having immunity even for assassinating political rivals. every four years you have some people say, well, if the other guy wins, i'm leaving the country, i can't stand it anymore. i think right now the conversation is much more serious than i've ever heard before and not necessarily about

whether they would go or not, but the sense of fear and uncertainty about where the country is going, what would it mean if you have a person in the oval office that say things like donald trump. take him seriously, especially if you're on his enemies list. >> senator tim scott in the running to be one of trump's vp picks asked six times whether he would accept the results of the election and he just would not answer. the only thing i can say is with all this criminal stuff, there are some things that are different this time around for donald trump on the campaign trail. first of all, he's stuck in court. secondly, all the people that were with him the first time that he ran for office, ivanka, jared, tiffany, melania, they're

not with him. it's a very different campaign, very dark. >> you're saying in court. >> i'm talking about on the campaign trail they're not with him. >> i would suspect they'll be with him by the end. we don't know what's going to happen. if you ask the biden team whether they would have donald trump silent in court or running his mouth on the campaign trail, they would all prefer him to be outside the courtroom and running his mouth on the campaign trail, because that's where you get a better look into donald trump's soul. >> peter baker, thank you. coming up, donald trump's criminal trial resumes in just a few minutes. we'll get a live report from outside the courthouse in lore manhattan. plus, a massive free concert on one of the most iconic beaches in the world. we'll tell you which famed

performer drew over 1.5 million fans to her free show on saturday night. that's next on "morning joe." tut that's next on "morning joe.

more than 1.6 million people crowded onto the famed copacabana beach in brazil saturday night, turning out for a free concert by madonna. the 2 1/2 mile stretch of sand was turned into a massive dance floor as the 65-year-old pop icon put on a free concert to mark the final stop on her celebration world tour. fans also watched the performance from apartments and

hotels overlooking the beach as well as from boats anchored in the nearby harbor. the show included giant screens, 18 sound towers spread out along the beach. they showed up for madonna. it's kind of cool. she's 65. >> look at that. berkshire hathaway held its annual shareholders convention over the weekend. on saturday warren buffett spoke on a wide range of topics, including federal reserve chairman jerome powell's handling of the economy and the quickly evolving field of artificial intelligence. andrew ross sorkin is with us. what were some of the major take-aways from this year's convention in omaha? >> it wasn't as many as madonna had, but 40,000 people did come out to see warren buffett, who is still energetic at 93 years

old. it was actually an emotional meeting because his partner charlie munger passed away last year at the age of 99 just about a month before he was to turn 100. i have to admit i even cried at one point. they shared a movie that was just so emotional. i think the biggest take-away was, i think, in warren buffett's mind there is some true caution about where the economy is. i know we talk about how the economy is going gangbusters and seems to be quite good despite some of the inflation issues and the like. but i think there's some level of which he may think the market is possibly overvalued. he did trim his stake in apple, which is their largest holdings. he also talked about ai and his anxieties, frankly, about what he thinks it could portend not

just for the economy, but for society. there were a lot of fascinating take-aways from this year's meeting that has people this morning on wall street talking. the biggest is where we are for the market right now and some of his cautions about it. >> you talked last week about how you stopped drinking starbucks. >> i can't do it. it doesn't taste good. i thought it was just florida. it tastes different. there are people who agree with me on social media. the former ceo of starbucks is slamming his former company for its weaker-than-expected performance. what can you tell us about this? >> this is a remarkable turn in the story of starbucks. howard schultz, the longtime ceo of the company, no longer the

ceo, coming out publicly on linkedin, writing a lengthy post about the problems he sees with starbucks and how to effectively fix them. if you read between the lines, he's very frustrated with this company's management, with the board about how they've approached it, what he sees as a transactional approach to managing the company. he seems to think there needs to be a major reinvestment in the online app and how the experience is at the stores. it's very rare where you hear a former ceo criticizing the company that they built. there's now speculation that an activist investor could emerge in this company and even speculation about whether an activist investor would want to partner with howard schultz and bring him back. he's come back three times, by the way. unclear that he wants to come back per se, but clearly there's

something in terms of the relationship that has been broken between the company and him. >> what do you think, andrew, about starbucks' problem and why it seems that howard has to keep coming back? why is it so unmanageable unless he's running the company? >> it's a great question. i don't have an answer for it. you know, howard schultz, i think, may be the soul of the company. he talks a lot about become a servant leader. he always says, if the company can exceed the expectations of the employees, the employees can exceed the expectations of customers. it's actually a very unique way of thinking. i think a lot of the ceos who have been in place in between the times when howard has have, in truth, been more transactional, more operational, if you will. that's considered a good thing in many ways, but on the flip side may not have that soul piece of it all.

>> andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. >> this is from the "new york times." i find you in criminal contempt for the tenth time, said justice juan merchan, who said he is concerned that donald trump has not taken heed of his prior findings going forward. this court will have to consider a jail sentence, the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. >> that's the news out of the courthouse this morning. joining us is yasmin vossoughian live in lower manhattan. that's a tough warning moments ago from the judge. what did he say? and what else is happening in court today? >> reporter: yeah. it was a big moment, i think, mika. we were awaiting a decision on the possible contempt charges for the former president, violations of the gag order, four of them separately that were issued last week. we were awaiting a decision from

judge merchan. he kind of took us through some major moments this morning as court got up and going and kind of talking about the gravity of a situation of putting a former president of the united states and even possible future president of the united states in jail for contempt of court and the fact that it would also involve secret service if he were to be put in jail if he were to violate this gag order. he understands and sees that the $1,000 fines are not really making a difference and knows that he has to job to do in spite of how difficult the decision may be, he said. although he is not putting him in jail for now, it seems to be another threat for the former president to not continue to violate this gag order. we're awaiting that decision, because it was handed over to the prosecution around the defense. they did not read that from the bench. when we get it, i'm going to bring it to you. but nonetheless, it seems like the judge is readready, willing

prepared to put the former president in jail but understanding the gravity of the decision with secret service and everything like that. let's talk about the witness that is now taking the stand. it is jeff mcconney. he worked with former trump ceo alan weisselberg. let me walk you through what he said. he forwarded an invoice on february 14th of 2017 saying post to legal expenses, put retainer for the months of january and february of 2017 in the description. so we talk about what this week is really going to be about.

it is all about the fraudulent records. that is what this really comes down to. the last two weeks of testimony was really about setting up the timeline, creating this sense of a president of the united states running for election in the lead-up to november and how he was desperate to win that election. some of the testimony we heard from hope hicks. we are now moving to the point that they want to talk about the falsifying of the business records and how it all went down. it seems like this next witness that is taking the stand is going to speak to exactly that, the understanding that the former president knew what he was doing when he put in his business records that this was for legal expenses as he reimbursed michael cohen. we're going to hear the testimony from this individual now. then, of course, we have to look ahead to some of the star

witnesses. stormy daniels, also known as stephanie clifford, could be taking the stand later on this week. whether or not the former president decides to testify himself on behalf of the defense. and then that star witness who seems like he's already on trial. we've heard about him thousands of times at this point, michael cohen. it seems as if what i'm getting, the idea that i'm getting from all of this testimony over the last couple of weeks is, the real star witness is the documents. because the prosecution doesn't want to necessarily rely on testimony from michael cohen and/or stephanie clifford/stormy daniels, because of their credibility issues the defense has really honed in on. they want to rely on the documents. despite the fact that some of these witnesses seem a little bit more boring, they are going to be integral to building this timeline, building this story for the prosecution

before handing it over to the defense. >> yasmin vossoughian, thank you very much. stay close. we'll check back in. >> let's bring in right now msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. danny, as you would say in the courtroom, the judge is laying the predicate, isn't he? he's saying, we've been through this ten times. i've been telling you all along i don't want to put you in jail. don't test it. this is not working. i don't want to put you in jail as a former president and a possible future president, but i may do that. i know you've got a job to do, but the judge says i've got a job to do as well. it seems like a long windup, but it looks like he may be willing to throw that pitch at some

point. >> zero surprises from justice merchan here. i didn't expect that he would jail trump on this hearing, on this decision. i think he's going to give him at least a couple more chances, because contempt violations are about a continuum. you start with admonitions. then you say, well, here's your maximum statutory fine of $1,000 in new york. one interesting thing to me is that he verbalized what i think everyone knew, this judge and every judge with the trump case is thinking, which is, i do not want to try and put an ex-president in jail, not for an hour, not overnight, not for a week. it will be a logistical, administrative nightmare, to say nothing of the fact that he has to be flanked by secret service agents. the issues involved make it so i don't think any judge wants to do that.

judge merchan just confirmed that this morning. >> does it not say something, though, by the judge bringing this up, i don't want to do this because of the logistical problems, even referring to the secret service, but saying i will do it if you keep doing and saying and violating the way you are. i think him bringing up the difficulties only made it more poignant that he's saying, but i will do that if you keep this up? >> absolutely. the judge is saying this is absolutely on the table and that jail could happen. in fact, i think that might justify him doing it sooner rather than later. maybe one more chance. it really depends on the nature of trump's continued violations. of course, every violation after this moment, arguably since the first decision, would be a violation when trump was on notice. two weeks ago, three weeks ago you could argue trump wasn't really sure how the judge would

interpret the gag order, but at this point it's pretty clear to trump what is and what is not going to get the judge willing to find contempt. the judge has denied, at least in some instances, the prosecution's allegations of contempt, but largely found that trump's tweets, when challenged, did fall within the gag order and violated them. this is fair warning to donald trump. even though gag orders are constitutionally suspect, donald trump knows in this court with this gag order what is to be expected going forward. >> danny cevallos, thank you very much. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." much. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe. l ringing) limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds)

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it's a beautiful... a n...day to fly. rom wooooo! faith, mental health and identity. those are the core topics of the new book written by dr. matt r. salmon entitled "pride &

prejudice: healing division in the modern family." in the book he details his experience of growing up queer and autistic as the son of a republican congressman in a conservative mormon household in phoenix, arizona. the book combines firsthand accounts with ex-perpt perspectives to tackle the obstacles encountered by lgbtq+ people within family and religious settings. dr. salmon joins us now, the manager of psychiatry at whitman walker health in washington, d.c. he specializes in child, adolescent and adult sky try with the focus on lgbtq+ youth who have faced chronic interpersonal trauma. i would assume a whole bunch of invalidation comes with that. >> dr. salmon, i hope you don't mind, i can't call you dr. salmon because you grew up as

mathew. >> you call him dr. salmon. >> you grew up as mathew. i'm so glad you're here. i saw this through the eyes of your father for years, and i can tell you when i spoke to him earlier this week, he was weeping how proud he is of you. but my gosh, what a journey, matthew, and what a story you have to tell. >> thank you. i really appreciate being here. you can absolutely call me matthew. i still remember playing with your kids through the halls of the capitol. >> so talk about what you want people to learn from the book. >> well, so i wrote this book because of my experience. right now across the country politicians are trying to criminalize people because of

their identity. this is something that is -- it's a huge challenge that people face in their lives and research has found that discriminatory policies like this are the cause of the numerous risks that lgbtq populations or other marginalized people face so their health or their mental health. we see hugely increased rates of mental health conditions including suicide, suicidal ideation or suicide attempts among lgbtq populations, and as a result of the hate and discrimination that they face across the -- as a result of systemic prejudice and policies that we continue to uphold or

even try to newly put in place across the country. there are states where they're trying to pass laws you can't say gay. in my opinion, politicians -- these politicians don't want to say gay because what comes to their mind is gay sex. but really the truth is gay is just an identity. when i think of gay, i think of people that love each other against really terrifying odds, possible violence and other types of oppression that they might face. they're doing it anyway. >> dr. salmon, you refer to faith. explain how faith factored in in terms of you coming forward and even writing these book. i would imagine that, given how you grew up, the religion training and the bias you faced, it took a lot of courage. i would assume your faith had a

lot to do with it, to even step forward and take on things that you clearly had been raised in a community or in a way of thinking that was the opposite of what you had come to represent. >> absolutely, i appreciate that, reverend. i grew up mormon or lds. in my faith, as you were saying, it was not acceptable. i heard messages that my identity or to be gay was an abomination, that it was considered -- to live as a gay person was considered to be a sin second to murder. these were the kinds of ideas that i had to deal with in order to accept who i am. but as research shows and what happened in my own life is those who are raised in religious

settings, contrary so what is believed, that people when they become -- when they accept themselves as they are and live their lives as queer persons, that there's this idea that they throw away all the values they were raised with, that they become promiscuous or involved in sinful living. but really what the research shows and what happened for me is i leaned into the values that i was raised with. i was raised with the values of loving other people unconditionally as jesus christ did. i was raised with the values of respecting other people and allows people the freedom to live their lives. as a result of those values, i gained the strength that i needed to face this adversity. i was raised being taught that adversity was meant to -- meant for us to learn from and grow.

that was all stuff that came from the religion of my upbringing. it was through that that i was able to recognize that, you know, i had to -- in order for me to truly honor these value, i had to leave my faith and accept myself as i am. >> well, i know one of many people really proud of you is sitting next to me. the new book is entitled "pride & prejudice: healing division in the modern family." it's available now. dr. matt r. salmon, thank you for coming on the show. congratulations on the book. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. in 90 ss '. one dose quickly stops migraine in its tracks. treat it anytime, anywhere without worrying where you are or if it's too late. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors.

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