election cycle is only focused on the presidential race. we see it is our job to help them see that their voices matter in senate and house races across the country, as well. >> there is save bowls. we are thinking about those in the middle that are open to talking policy, talking about the ideas. >> she refers to them as those key independent voters who will help decide the election in pennsylvania. i had the opportunity to observe afp doorknocking on thursday and it was fascinating to hear them have conversations with voters who are totally dissuaded by the top of the ticket, but who are starting to become interested in the down ballot races. that's exactly what this is, the opportunity to engage early and get people interested in those senate races. >> so interesting, thanks for sharing. that's it for me on this edition. we will be back next sunday. msnbc plan weekend is next. weekend is next.

welcome to prime time weekend, i'm nicole ellis, let's get right to the weeks top stories. opening statements will begin on monday and in the words of judge rochon, quote, this trial is starting. for so long we have used the word erosion to describe donald trump's erosion. but if this week's spectacle in new york city showed us anything, it is that the term erosion, flow of water, slow and steady, might be understating the immediate danger. instead, perhaps not to think of the ongoing harm done to the structure of our democracy like a tidal wave with flash flooding possible. try as he might to board up the windows, keep from being swept away, there is irreparable

damage being done or more every second phase you can see it in the actions and the fear of prospective jurors, some of them so frightened or intimidated for doing their basic civic duty that some or moved to tears in the courthouse as it were today for fear of retaliation. you can see it in the way the disgraced ex-president lies about the case and everyone involved in it. most of all you can see it in the way he has conditioned his followers to distrust anything and everything outside the hermetically sealed maga bubble. executive director of protect democracy described it so eloquently to us like this. >> i think perhaps one of the most dangerous that we face is the unleashing of termites in the foundations of our system that trump and his allies unleashed by sowing doubt in the trust that we have historically had in our institutions, by suggesting that courts can't be trusted, that juries can't be trusted, that every actor here is acting

corruptly and nefariously. it is undermining that trust that is perhaps one of the greatest long-term threats to the viability stability and future success of this country because a democracy depends certainly on the trust in our systems, our systems were never perfect but always the process of improving them. when you get like people like trump and his allies, that so such doubt in the system, none of it can be trusted, that is when the whole thing begins to collapse. cleanout a panel of 12 jurors and six alternate jurors, assembled in a panel with a purpose and mission, determining trump's terminal fate, we are left to wonder with the tidal wave crashing around us what will happen next. is the question we will get to in this hour with some of our most favorite experts and friends. winston university professor of sociology and international affairs, back with us point also joining us from u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquaid is here

point former chief of staff of the department of homeland security, miles taylor is here but we start with my friend and colleague, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin, she has just come out of the courtroom forest. >> the courtroom that we are in on the 15th floor here is one of the more dreary places i've ever been in a courthouse. it is woodpaneled, but it has no hearts whatsoever. there are more courts than there are anything else, stapled to the wall point the one thing that is says in this courtroom very clearly is in god we trust and get that very pedestrian dreary courtroom is where something really extraordinary happened this afternoon because judge rochon had to go through the failings of three motion letters that the defense has buried him under and most of them are about things that have already been litigated and if not litigated once they have been litigated twice so setting his rulings on things like whether or not evidence can be precluded on grounds of presidential immunity, for example. he said, and i am reading from my notes, you cannot continue to submit three motion letters asking to revisit every ruling.

interchange the motions and good faith at some point you have to accept this courts rulings, or having opening statements monday. and at some point in that, donald trump started to stand up and said sir, we are not finished, sit down and donald trump was incredibly humbled by that but also peeved when he walked out hugely scans the press in attendance at every hearing i have been through with him and this was my fourth trump trial in the last year but he looked dead straight ahead, his lips pursed and that characteristic trump way and was shaking his head as he was walking out, just so angry that he has finally met a wall that he can't tear down and judge one mershon has been very harsh with the defense but not necessarily in a harsh tone of voice pick is making clear that this is his courtroom, we are going to have opening

statements monday and when susan says and to know who our witnesses are going to be, i'm going to ask you to renew that motion from us, we are requesting to know, there will be no delay. eventually josh our first and only witness on monday, we will commit to you that you will not get to cross examination and if we see that person's name and any tweets or post by your client i will assure you that will be the last time we grant you the courtesy, nicole. >> it is fascinating that is where we are and you had to get and the prosecutors are already giving them attorneys eyes only information this trial needs to be protected himself. take me inside with the final day of jury selection, they were selecting the final alternates today. >> i know today is taylor swift day and i am a huge swiftie but the theme of today, if you had to put it to a song, is david

going and queens, under pressure, because you saw juror upon juror, prospective juror upon juror really start to crack and show their anxiety and nervousness, participating in this proceeding. we had young one woman, who said that her father was friends with a, let's call him, a big nemesis of the former president and eventually when she was questioned about her ability to stay impartial and weigh the evidence, feelings about the former president, burst into tears on rather mild- mannered person even though she was being forceful in her words, she is a mild-mannered person and her own compartment and yet was taken to a sidebar to further explore why she was so nervous and anxious she was ultimately excused also know that we had a prospective juror today who said to some frustration like i don't know why i keep getting these notices but i have committed a climb in another jurisdiction. i served time in another state,

i don't think i am even eligible to serve and yet i am here and started to tear up about the circumstances of that conviction. again, a sidebar with the parties, whereupon judge mershon learned that while she could be eligible to serve, if she had a certificate of her release, that it would depend on the circumstances of each individual case whether she could serve as a juror and at that point, he excused her and she walked out and she had the best line of the whole day, cheerfully she sang out, good luck, because she knows exactly what those who have been seated are in for and you could tell while she was trying to do her civic duty and comply with the law she was none too happy about being there or ultimately faced with the prospect of serving on a jury and was relieved to be released. >> under pressure is perfect, that is what it felt like particularly as you watched all of the tragic events unfold outside the courthouse. take me through what happens

monday. >> on monday, we will start opening statements, at 9:30 we will have those 12 jurors in the box, those of us who are on a designated list for press, me included for this network, will be in the courtroom itself point that is different from the last several days of jury selection where we had to be somewhat insulated from the perspective jurors and the prosecution will get there opportunity to go through their theory of this case. you know that in the press, we refer to this case is the hush money case but they have maintained throughout that is really not what this is about at all that is only the antecedent to the climbs that they have charged, 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in order to commit or conceal another crime. i should note that the intent to commit a crime obviously would be one that donald trump would want to commit himself. the intent to conceal another crime, that could be somebody else's crime and here in this instance, you know the district

attorney is going to fight for michael cohen, that he pled guilty to a federal election law violation. they are not only going to seek to elicit those facts from mr. cohen but the fact of his plea and that pleading guilty, that was his formal break from donald trump under his spell he had fallen for a number of years as the first person donald trump spoke to in the morning, last person donald trump spoke to at night and when he decided to plead out and confessed to his crimes that was the ultimate break between donald trump and michael cohen who are now fierce nemeses and will face a showdown in this case, expect the district attorney to preview that for us. in contrast, what you're going to hear from the defense is really going to be not so much a contest of what actually happened but whether donald trump understood what was going on here and whether he had been paying michael cohen, he knew that he was covering up those payments. we will see what happens on monday when they each flush out their cases for us. >> thank you so much for your

service, on behalf of all of your colleagues. thank you for joining us. it's extraordinary that this is where we are. to lisa's last point there, the facts are established by trump's own justice department, michael cohen sentencing memo it feels like some of this is sort of getting back to established had never been in dispute. >> it is getting back to established facts and sort of in keeping with lisa's lyrical reference. >> please [ laughter ] >> you would look at this case and say this guy is down bad, okay? there are 34 counts against him. it would appear that he is guilty as sin, but at the moment, he is out of the slammer and justice doesn't happen in a fortnight and we are going to see, starting monday. >> i am not worthy. >> the tortured poetry of his attorneys but no joking aside, i think the facts have been

long-established and you can see that in this case and those 34 counts to go far beyond just the stormy daniels case and the hush money. there was a catch and kill conspiracy alleged here, timed around the election. this is a much bigger story to be told and i think one of the other things that lisa noted that is hanging over this entire trial is that we know donald trump has always had a dog whistle but he has got a dog whistle packed with dynamite and every luck he makes, those stern cases she described as he left the courtroom, going person by person, that is not accidental. he is not excited to look those people in the eye because he wants to invite them to christmas. people are worried that every move in that courtroom is designed to potentially intimidate the aspects of the justice system that he believes are conspiring against him that is really alarming and the judge is going to be walking a difficult tightrope this entire trial. we just remind people what trump does people that make him mad.

>> look, let me take one step back from that. just look at that dog whistle, though, when he says there is an invasion, people go shoot up walmarts in texas. when he says there is a great replacement, people go shoot up grocery stores in new york when he says an election was stolen, they storm the capital and that is just what he is using his dog whistle and he is doing that wink not that he wants his supporters to go do something. when donald trump directly identifies an enemy and directly highlights who has turned against him, he ruins people's lives in their entirety. and what sort of poetic innocence about this trial is that you will see him sitting across from michael cohen, who whether you agree or not with the charges that michael cohen faced and the time that he served, that is a life that donald trump was -bent on ruining in anticipation of the fact that this man, his lawyer, one of his most trusted aides, could testify against him and take him down. that is what he does. and trust me, he won't stop

with michael cohen, he is going to make people involved in this trial, whether he is exonerated or not, he is going to make them feel like they will pay for having been involved in it and that is deeply chilling. >> you know, it seems like there is, everything in our system is designed to protect donald trump's rights, he is innocent until and guilty. and donald trump seems -bent on perverting a system that is structured to protect him. >>, a little bit distorted, doesn't it? you know, i hear from a lot of people how can there be all these delays? how can he get all of these breaks? how can he get all these benefits? the system is designed to ensure that, it is designed, they often say, to ensure that it is better than 10 guilty people go three than that one innocent person so there are a lot of due process rights designed to benefit the defendant and yet, as you say, we see donald trump attacking the very system that he has all

these benefits for him. and you do see equally, others bend over backward despite his attempts on them to protect. but like their job is to preserve the institution, to protect the constitution and make sure the system works because it has to work, the most egregious defenders we will see were donald trump falls on that spectrum. i also think a big part of what he is trying to do here, nicole, is to condition the public that he can undermined the legitimacy of the court and if he is ultimately convicted he can say it doesn't matter, i told you all along. and so we should not take any respect or decisions. >> i hear some of that, too. i make some of those arguments myself. but i think what people ponder isn't that he has an opportunity to appeal every decision and judgment, he said you can't relitigate each and

every one of my rulings. i think it is that he is in violation of a gag order that exists and it is down alice and wonderland rabbit hole, right? the gag order, apply to me or miles are you, if we violated it once we would probably be find, three times, four times maybe they would be talking about. he violated more than a dozen times so i think it is that the tools that exist in the system, people don't see willing to use them on him. what do you say about that? oh yeah, i think you're right, i think that people are very reluctant oftentimes judges are reluctant to saying to defendants no matter who they are because they want to make sure that they are giving a defense and they do all the things they want to do but i agree with you, i think that there is a worry here that donald trump is fading them and that holding infants hands, they are just giving you more because of the image of donald trump being fined or jailed or in contempt for violating the

steel order could be one that he uses and likely would be one that he uses to attack credibility of the court and to raise the temperature on things. i think the judges want to bring calm to chaos, calm things down, keep eye on the ball, let's get this trial done and let's not worry about sideshows and i think donald trump is all about disruption and chaos so creating all of this sideshow is part of his game plan and so even if the judge takes the bait and jails him i think there is some concern that the judge is taking his eye off the ball which is getting this trial to a verdict. >> always thought about the road to is paved in trying to game out what trump will do. right? so trump is going to, he already has 80% of his supporters do not believe in the legitimacy of these charges and these are facts not really in dispute by donald trump. and unlike the mar-a-lago case word trump is running on those facts, residential records, you can do it. and the january 6th case, before

judge tanya chutkan where he is running for president alongside the other insurrectionist, he is not running on his alleged affair with stormy daniels or care of dougal, he is not running on the checks he wrote from the oval office. he is not running on the facts because these are not facts that he wants out there. >> and even worse than that, all he is looking to do is to create symbols for more people to buy in the narrative he has created. this narrative that justice is against him, most most of his supporters believe there is some republicans who don't believe it but maybe would believe it if they saw donald trump, for instance, in handcuffs because they would say, well that is just too far. i do think he wants to be seen as some sort of a martyr on the alt-right and he is trying to paint exactly, as barb has said, the officials and all of these cases to step over what his supporters would consider a line and create that scenario. i remember debating this during the trump administration,

someone who famously said they hoped that donald trump would be removed from the oval office in a straitjacket and he would handcuff himself to the resolute desk you know which senior official i am referring to. i disagreed at the time that that was going to send the message to the american people that this guy was out of his mind because donald trump new, if they had to pry him out of the white house, it would look to his supporters, again, that he was a martyr and it was an overreach i really worry here that that inclination on his part is going to put the judge in an extraordinarily difficult position. he doesn't want to give donald trump that photo op but he also has to operate that court in a manner that is consistent with justice and protect the people involved this is going to be very difficult watch and i think we will be talking about that aspect of the story every single day of this trial. >> can my study of autocracy suggests that we are having all these conversations in the wrong frame, right? his supports, talking about them

like their normal political supporters, what they like, what they don't like what policies they like. page one of tyranny by timothy snyder talks about the power that is given away. so it would appear you put that lens over this, the power that is being given away is the power to hold donald trump to the same legal standard that any of us would be held to. >> right, i agree completely. i think one of the difficulties here is that many people can see that donald trump is simply getting away with more in the context of our ordinary criminal justice system. almost any other defendant would be, for reasons that your prior guest suggested. it doesn't look like he is being held to the same standards but there is also another problem going on here, just like donald trump did with an election that he knew he was going to lose, i think he sees ahead to the fact that he is going to lose this case and whatever other trials, criminal trials brought against him. and so what he is trying to do is to the legitimate the whole process and that is a page from

the autocrats playbook. and worse yet, he is trying to read the legitimate the courts that are going to convict him while actually praising the ones that may not so i want to contrast what you are saying in this case with what he is saying about judge cannon in florida, who had main really many rulings in his favor. so what he is doing is not just the legitimating the justice system. he is doing it selectively and he is suggesting that every judge is on the red team or the blue team and therefore, you can only trust the red team judges and not the blue team judges and that is kind of a, it serves to make the justice system look like ordinary politics. again, one of the things autocrats do is they collapse the law into politics. there is no base where the rules of law and where the facts presented are the determinative outcomes in a political matter. everything

gets politicized, right? that is, what i think we are seeing here. that is very dangerous for our future. even if he is convicted in this case and even if he loses the election, because this is the kind of stain that doesn't go away with just one trial. you know, kim, it also has a long, there is a real long arc to this point when he became president, i think you first alarmed general kelly, constantly talked about my generals, my generals he meant john kelly and humid madison, they weren't the country's military leaders, they were my generals. i remember him saying in an interview with the new york times that he wanted his kennedy at doj, he viewed them as being on the team of the presidents they serve, which, of course, is ridiculous. he talks about my blacks at his rally, and incredibly derogatory thing to say about his african american supporters. it everything is the possessive

pick that, too, comes straight out of an autocrats hand book. >> the offices remain in the occupants passed through them and they pass through them on the basis of free and fair elections so that people can through the mouth when they want to pick the thing about autocracy is at the office comes to be identified with the person so the person claims to own the office claims to be above the constitution claims to be the final word in the system so that everyone pledges loyalty to the autocrat and not to the constitutional framework. so we are seeing that process, really quite advanced in the way that trump talks about all of the institutions. the military, of course, the pushback on that point the judiciary is now trying to push back on that. but again, the concern here is that it begins to look like everybody is on one political team or another and i think it is quite crucial that due process, the facts, and the law

really come forward and i think i'm kind of relieved about we are actually adding to a trial and we are actually getting to a trial in front of an experienced judge who has already shown that he is not going to take this nonsense or trying to inflict every single legal order with politics and i think once we actually get to the presentation of evidence it might get a bit better because i hope people begin to realize that inside of the courtroom is not a space for politics. >> barbara mcquaide, thank you so much for starting us off. while, stick around for the hour. we will continue monitoring the breaking news at a new york city and around the courtroom. will be joined by former federal prosecutor with experience prosecuting organized crime cases and the similarities between the trump trial so far in cases brought against the mob. that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right.

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club that's how he speaks. he doesn't the questions, he doesn't give you orders, he speaks in a code, and i understand the code because i have been around him for a decade. >> that, of course, is michael cohen. cohen has already served a prison sentence in the hush money payments made to stormy daniels for he is describing there, donald trump, and how he operates more like a true mob boss so far his first criminal trial has had many of the hallmarks and challenges of trying to prosecute one joining us at the table, former federal prosecutor, former st and not deputy chief msnbc legal analyst, kristi greenberg pick she was also at the courthouse today. miles is still with us. so we are peppering you with questions at the break let's just start with what you were telling us about your thoughts about the jury that has been a panel. >> so i think day one, there were a few questionable jurors, one of them, luckily, has now been excused because they found out he had a prior arrest. some of them, there were a few red flags i think somebody who

says they have no opinion, who follows the news and says they follow lawsuits and is up-to- date on things but say they have absolutely no opinion about trump's character, that just strikes me as a little far- fetched. i feel like most people who follow this have an opinion about his character. strike me as more believable of that person said well i have an opinion but i can set it to the side. i can be impartial and just focus on the facts and the law and when those people are trying to, try too hard to seem neutral, those jurors seem like they were red flags. i think a lot of those jurors who were excused and not picked, but there were quite a few on the jury so that will be interesting to watch as we proceed. >> and what do you make of the anxiety that has been described by journalists around the courtroom? the tears, the emotion, the fear. >> so the juror number two, the nurse, who found herself being outed on national tv. i mean, that was just heartbreaking. the fact that she would come as

the judge said, she would've been a good juror, she was ready to be fair and impartial and because she was outed, now all of a sudden she finds and and blood of messages she is scared, she's been criticized already as prejudging how she would vote before anything has even started and any evidence has been presented so it is going to be a really difficult situation for somebody who is not in this arena and just there to do their civic duties. it is really unfortunate, it needs to stop. clear this up before the jury was selected, before they had seen any evidence, before anyone had glared at them, before they made any reactions. what do you do to protect this jury in the coming days? >> well, for starters, one thing that they changed from monday to now is on monday it was striking to me that all of the jurors you could easily identify who they were. they were outside holding their little juror slips and they were waiting for at least 30 minutes outside right across from where all of these protests were going on. and right across from the press

line, so people were interviewing them, as the press wants to do, people were talking to them and people could have taken photos. that needs to stop and it seems like it has they are no longer waiting out there, there no longer right near the protests. that seems to have been addressed. going forward, i mean, information about them has already been public but making sure people aren't taking photos, making sure there in a side entrance, making sure that they have contacts in law enforcement who they can speak to if there are any threats or any kind of intimidation those are the kinds of things i would expect to be in place when we get started on monday. >> what do you do to protect people who may not be followed home and threatened at knifepoint but to feel the climate and feel afraid by the political climate? >> i think it is really hard. i think it is really challenging to do but i think a lot of those jurors going into this new one that climate was, how a sense of and still didn't

take themselves out of it. most of the jurors, at 96 you had roughly 50 or so say i can't be fair and impartial, i can't do this for whatever reason, they got to leave. i think those were really spooked by the climate already selected themselves off. the people who stayed are people who, i think, have some understanding of the risk and are choosing to do their civic duty and we really should applaud them for doing that. >> what do you make of what is about to happen on monday morning? judge merchan today basically saying to trump's legal team, enough, we cannot relitigate every individual pretrial motion . we start monday. >> i think we will start monday. i think it will be a momentous day, i will be along with many others, camped out in line for hours waiting to get in i think in terms of the trial itself, it is going to be routine, you're going to hear opening arguments from both sides, the witnesses will be called, the jury will be there to take

notes and understand what is going on and i do think this judge is really running a tight ship so i think the actual trial itself is not going to be having the kind of fireworks that maybe we would expect given kind aware, what has led up to now. >> what you thing that does to someone like trump who can't stand not producing his own show? >> he is going to find a way. you already sought with the trip to the bodega that he made the other day, his team is already sitting down and thinking about what can we do while we are in the area? what can we do while we are in the courtroom, illegal tense point, his legal team is already trying to stick as much paper again well as humanly possible, even if it buys him another hour of freedom they want that our pick they think that our is going to benefit them in the campaign in the eyes of his supporters, they will try everything. so it could be a look trump gives to a person, an errant

comment he made, the way he was described leaving the courtroom, they're going to look for every single opportunity to politicize this and create spectacle and that makes it all the more difficult. i think going back to the jury, we are talking so much about how this is unprecedented to have a former president on a criminal trial. but i have to say, those 12 people are in an unprecedented position. never in the history of this country have we had people sit in the jury box in this type of situation and also in an environment with this type of pressure. i will take your point that the folks that are in the jury box are largely people who went in clear eyed but i think even if they have gone in clear eyed they don't know what to expect here because we have never had a political climate like this and just look a couple of years ago when the intelligence community was backed by the full force of the federal government and everything that goes into protecting intelligence community members was maliciously outed by people in retributive fashion. i worry about that. i think they're going to need to take extraordinary measures in this case.

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the senator who caused an up or when he advocated in an opinion piece for federal force

against black lives matter protesters back in 2020 is at it again, calling for vigilante violence when it comes to pro- palestinian protesters senator tom content writing, quote, i encourage people who get stuck behind the pro-hamas mobs blocking traffic take matters into your own hands and get them out of the way. is time to put an end to this nonsense the backlash to the senators call to violence is immediate but here he is this morning, doubling down in the comments. >> i said that, i posted it, i would say that again today and i would do it myself. >> but he said people should take matters into their own hands, can you just clarify what that means? because some people think it is a call for violence. >> it calls for getting out of your car and forcibly removing pro-hamas vigilantes or blocking the streets on major highways so traffic can continue. we were back with congressman, there were a lot of cameras of

the capital on jan. 6 of what are you aware of forcibly moving any of the trump supporters turned insurrectionist on that day? >> now, i am not aware. i was focused on protecting my colleagues in the house gallery point i was a part of a group of about seven several dozen members who are trapped in the house gallery that day, working on figuring out how to barricade the doors to prevent access to the gallery and eventually how to find an escape route. it was obviously a very difficult situation and luckily, thanks to the courage of the u.s. capitol police, we were able to find a way to safety. >> and i guess my point is, this is it someone who believes in treating all protesters the same, i mean, the op-ed for which there was much attention around was about using the insurrection act on, in the context of the protest that erupted after the murder of george floyd.

he is for, in his words, forcibly removing with force protesters, he calls them pro- hamas protesters, most of them are pro-palestinian protesters in their own telling. the idea that this republican senator has such harsh ideas for how to deal with people protesting things he doesn't agree with feels like a hallmark of this republican party. >> well, listen, i haven't spoken, i don't know what is inside of other people's mind. i try not to spend my time inside of other people's minds around here. this is what i do know, i do know that our country is in a spiral right now. this is a spiral of partisanship. it is in a spiral of vitriol, it is in a spiral of extremism and what we really need to stop the spiral who will stop it from happening. are nation is at its best, what

happened to our better angels, when we are united, to come together. that is the shift we now more than ever. >> when we come back, the rise of white right-wing domestic violence is happening right now in our country. and also happened before in the years leading up to the worst domestic terror attack in u.s. history. the oklahoma city bombing, katie couric and mark levin will be here with their new documentary, an american bombing. american bombing. protection with just 9 essential ingredients no sulfates, no silicones, no dyes. dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. but st. jude has gotten us through it.

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i would be hard-pressed to think of a time where so many threats to our public safety, and national security were so elevated all at once. but now, increasingly concerning is the potential for a coordinated attack here in the homeland, akin to the isis k attack we saw a russian concert hall a couple of weeks ago.

>> that was fbi director christopher wray on his own unprecedented assessment of a threat environment here in the united days. this heightened danger that his beer and other security officials flagged again on friday of domestic violence extremism, as well. small groups of lone wolf actors who could be inspired to carry out attacks right here .29 years ago this week the united states saw the single deadliest act of domestic terrorism in our country's history, the bombing of a federal government building in oklahoma city killed 160 people that day. the number included 19 children in a day care and injured hundreds of others. new hbo documentary found explores the surgeon antigovernment extremist white nationalist movement and home grown political violence before and after april 19th 1995, and emotionally charged morning for those who lost loved ones in the attack. let's watch. >> i heard a very loud explosion. from downtown oklahoma city.

april 19, april 19, okay, two years earlier, april 19th was the siege in waco. >> my life and experience told me this is a homegrown plot. >> this is a plan that was hatched 10 years earlier. during the late 70s, early 80s. it was anger against the federal government's exploitation of farmers. >> everybody in the movement says the government making war with the american people. >> the way power movement had come together recruiting active- duty troops, veterans, most notably, timothy mcveigh. fully 10 mcveigh was part of the group that wanted to declare war on america. the far right movement wanted -- how come we never heard about that? mcveigh was a tragic example of a guy who thought our differences were more important than what we have in common. returning is now, emmy award winners katie couric, executive

producer of this documentary, and american bombing, the road to april 19th, and the films director, mark levine. i say it wrong again? 11, i am so sorry i'm sorry. i think about, i think about oklahoma city all the time when we covered the various bombings that come out of the department of homeland security. because it represents the worst- case scenario. tell me how you came to make this film. sleep well, i did a film 28 years ago for nbc, called oklahoma city, one year later. so i was there in the aftermath . i stayed connected to a number of people i met back then and then katie was over with our friends at hbo, talking about an idea she had and it came because she was there also and they said you two should get together.

we did, we hit it off and that is how it started. you were there for the today show? >> yes, i will never forget that day. i think it happened an hour after we were off the air and it was just pure chaos and one of the things, nicole, i remember distinctly was everyone thought it was islamic terrorism and that was sort of the narrative that was happening for the first hour or so because i think we couldn't really conceive of the idea that an american had done this to other americans. i think what mark does so brilliantly in this film is really trace the evolution of this movement and the fact that it really started in the early '80s in arkansas and kind of metastasized slowly through the decades and april 19, obviously, became a very significant day, not simply because of waco and oklahoma city but because of patriots' day and what this day has come to symbolize to this far right extremist movement.

>> and waco, talk about the connection. >> it was really amazing because mark and his reducing partner, daphne peterson, discovered video of timothy mcveigh at waco. he was handing out the antigovernment brochures and you know, talking to a lot of people. we have sound bites from him at waco and he was very upset about the government overreach there and what was he exactly upset about in waco, mark? >> he was very upset that the same military vehicles that he had used in the gulf war were being used against american citizens. and in his mind, to see the militarization of law enforcement. >> but it was also the drugs, the drug angle, right? >> that was the atf, came up with a clear rationale, really. >> a rationale so it would legitimate the use of military

equipment. you had to find a drug axis and that was one of mcveigh's grievances was the war on drugs and the militarization of law enforcement. so when you saw those tanks puncturing and firing tear gas into the compound, he said that was the moment he decided he was going to commit an act of domestic terrorism. >> this has been prime time weekend, i am nicolle wallace, please tune into deadline white house and all of our prime time shows weekdays on msnbc. sound like you? nah...not me. in a relationship. if you're sexually active and unvaccinated, it could still be you. i'm too old if you're under 45, u're not. for most people, hpv clears on its own. but for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers. wow... gardasil 9 is a vaccine given to adults through age 45 that can help protect against certain hpv-related cervical, vaginal, vulvar, anal, and certain head and neck cancers,

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