lighting every soccer match at shell energy stadium. we're moving forward with the houston dash. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress. will you finally, the house passes critical aid for ukraine and

israel in a rare saturday session. it could cost republican house speaker mike johnson his job. now democrats may have to help save him from the likes of marjorie taylor greene in his own party. california congressman robert garcia and punch bowl reporter join me live to discuss the stakes. trump on trial. opening statements are set for monday in donald trump's cost money election interference case. we take a closer look at the jury that will decide his fate, whether trump will testify and the tough questions he will face if he does. and, 25 years since columbine. the deadly high school shooting in colorado still haunts america today. dr. jonathan mezzo is here to discuss what has changed and what has not since the fateful day on april 20th, 1999. i'm jonathan capehart, this is the saturday show.

after months of dithering, delay, and denial, the house has finally passed for an eight legislation for our allies. with 311 votes, including all the democrats, $61 billion in desperately needed funding for ukraine, part of it in the form of a loan, was approved. the big bipartisan vote was also notable for one big reason. 112 republicans voted against it. that is more than half the republican majority, ostensibly in control of the house. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy thanked congress and speaker mike johnson, citing the aid will keep the war from expanding and save thousands of lives. the house also passed three other bills. one includes $26 billion in aid

for israel. another includes $8 billion in national security assistance for taiwan and the indo pacific region. the last bill involves an effort to ban tiktok in the united states within a year if the app does not divest from its china-based owner. the quartet of bills will automatically be packaged together and sent to the senate, which majority leader chuck schumer announced today will begin voting on tuesday to approve the measure. now, let's be clear that drama in the house is far from over. with a razor thin republican majority, speaker mike johnson was forced to rely on democratic votes to pass these aid bills, just as he has had to rely on democratic votes to do basic governing like keeping the government from shutting down last month. and, his majority just got even smaller with republican congressman mike gallagher set to retire after voting today.

that means speaker johnson can only afford to lose one republican vote, one vote until a special election next month to replace the former speaker kevin mccarthy, who left congress at the end of last year. this dynamic could spell real trouble for speaker johnson, especially since a trio of far right members of his conference are threatening to oust him in retaliation for bringing a vote on ukraine eight. congressman paul gosar, congressman tom massey are cosponsors of a motion to vacate against johnson, filed by the champion of chaos, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. today, thomas massey says he will not trigger the motion to vacate himself but hopes the pressure will leave the speaker with no choice but to resign. >> what we are hoping to do by cosponsoring a motion to vacate is to get mike johnson to acknowledge he will lose the vote and not have to have the vote. if it comes to that, there will

be a vote. >> the house is in chaos. part of the reason i'm doing this is to get us back out of chaos. >> the logic in this is all kinds of twisted. but, speaker johnson seems unbothered and unworried. well, at least that is what he said today. >> i don't walk around this building worried about a motion to vacate. i have to do my job. we did. i have done here what i believe to be the right thing and that is to allow the house to work as well. as i've said, you do the right thing and you let the chips fall where they may. >> joining me now, democratic congressman robert garcia of california. he is a member of the house oversight committee and the homeland security committee. and senior congressional reporter at "punch bowl news, ., whisman garcia, i have to start with you. how did you vote on each of the bills today? >> look, this is a good day for

the united states, for democracy. it is a great day for our families?. i voted yes on the package. i think it is really important is at this very moment, vladimir putin is defeated in his march tour to try and dominate eastern europe and ukraine. the house did the right thing. it is also really important we focus on the humanitarian aid package of $9 billion and that humanitarian aid is not just going to places like gaza, we are talking about money that will be used in haiti, which is going through a massive chaos and crisis right now. it's going to go to places like the sudan, where millions have died since the civil war. the unitarian aid package i think is one of the key cornerstones of this entire deal. $9 billion, one of the largest in recent memory. i'm really proud of that. get, i think the hosted the

right thing today. i'm glad our allies will receive the support they need. >> let me get you on one more thing, congressman. you voted against the tiktok bill. why? >> i voted against that bill because my position on that has been the same. i think there are other ways of addressing privacy concerns around social media. we should treat all of these platforms equally. that has been my position for a long time and will continue to be. i think the house will move forward. i hope the senate puts in the right types of measures and protects the millions of americans across the country that use tiktok for their small business, to promote their brands, promote their restaurants. i'm concerned about the impact to the local economy across america and i'm hopeful the senate will make some of those changes. >> andrew, president biden put out a statement praising both parties were coming together at the inflection point. how much of a role did biden and his administration have in moving speaker johnson from

ukraine eight skeptic to being willing to put his speakership on the line to get the foreign aid package passed with democratic votes, no less ? >> when mike johnson was a rank- and-file member of the house of representatives, he consistently voted against aid to ukraine. he was in that group of freedom caucus republicans who were the ideological far right of that conference. what he has said since is he's got a lot of intelligence briefings. when you are the speaker of the house, you are part of what is called the gang of eight. you get the highest level intelligence briefings possible and what has been impressed upon him is the gravity of the situation in ukraine and not just what is happening in ukraine but what could happen beyond ukraine if vladimir putin is successful in ukraine. clearly, his views were changed, were influenced as a result of these briefings. and, he has talked personally about the fact that his son is about

to go to the u.s. naval academy and one of the arguments for sending aid to ukraine is that i'd rather send american bullets than american boys to europe to defend against vladimir putin. that is what is happening right now, which is there are no american boots on the ground, no americans dying in this conflict and that it is a pay now or pay later type of situation. i think those arguments moved him. it is fascinating to see that he really is, truly, as you said, putting his job on the line for this issue after having been someone who voted against it consistently. >> let's talk about the fact that his job is on the line. congressman thomas massie says if the speaker doesn't resign, they will most likely have a vote on the motion to vacate. he is signed on as a cosponsor to marjorie taylor greene, as she put out a motion to vacate last month. she stormed out of the capitol after this afternoon's vote. when might she make the move to turn her motion to vacate into a privileged motion requiring immediate action ? >> the house will be on recess for the next week. what she said today what she

wants this issue to marinate a little bit and for members to get heat from their constituents back in their districts over what happened today in the house of representatives. so, she is still teasing it. she is still hanging this over mike johnson said. a lot of this, frankly, has to do with fundraising. by leaving this issue out of them and making it something she can talk about for weeks and weeks and weeks on end, that definitely helps her fundraising numbers. of course, raise her profile and she is a powerful member of the house because only of this rule whereby one member can trigger a motion to vacate. the longer she teases it, the more she will get the attention for it. that is important here. >> congressman garcia, the question, the important question to you is this, will you vote to save the speaker? right now, if not, what concessions will you need from him to turn your no into a yes? >> the only vote for speaker i am going to make is for hakeem

jeffries. there's no circumstance where i'm going to support a far right extremist republican for speaker. i understand that there might be other considerations that might be made where democrats might feel differently because of the vote. i understand that. at the end of the day, we will get behind our leader, hakeem jeffries. i'm sure he's thinking about this question. he is lined up to lead the entire house. that is who should be the speaker. it time for mike johnson to hand over the gavel to democrats. we are the ones that are solving the world's problems. we are the ones defending democracy. we are the ones saving the government from a short down. so, i think we are leading. we are showing how responsible leadership looks like. i think that mike johnson will have some issues in the weeks ahead. >> real quickly, you are studying speaker johnson shut and the gavel over to leader jeffries, why do that when you all are in control of the chamber without even being in

the majority? >> it sure feels that way sometimes. there is no question that we have really been a consequential force, even though we are in the minority this year. i credit our leadership to that, i credit the president and the president bold leadership in leading us as a party and the republican party has been one big clown show all year. so, it is one crisis to the next and it is one marjorie taylor greene created crisis to the next. we will continue to lead. we are ready to get back to work. we have a lot of things that are important to us and we will push through. >> congressman robert garcia, andrew desiderio, thank you for coming to the saturday show. a quick programming note. sunday on meet the press, kristen welker sits down for an exclusive interview with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. you can catch that on nbc tomorrow morning. check your local listings. up next, donald trump state

with history. opening statements set to begin monday in his criminal hush money election interference case. legal experts are standing by to tell us what to expect and whether trump will take the stand. the vladimir putin wing of the republican party. why congresswoman marjorie taylor greene and others are spouting kremlin talking points on the house floor. floor. i recommend pronamel repair. with new pronamel repair mouthwash you can enhance that repair beyond brushing. they work great together. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein! those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) sup? -who are you? and a new fiber blend wii'm your inner. child. get in. listen, what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance?

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opening statement in the manhattan district attorney has money election interference case against donald trump, the first ever criminal trial of a former president of the united states are set for monday morning. once they are done, the first witnesses will take the stand. trump says he will be one of them. >> mr. trump, how did your day go? are you going to testify? >> yes. >> we will see if he actually takes the stand. he does have a tendency to sell wolf tickets, after all. then again, it might depend on what kinds of questions he could face on the stand from prosecutors. judge merchan is expected to rule on monday which of trumps legal cases can be used against him during cross-examination . the manhattan district attorney has already said he wants to ask trump about being found liable for fraud and sexual assault. then, on tuesday, judge merchan will finally address trump's

alleged gang quarter violations, including recent social media posts referencing the jury and witnesses. the da has accused trump of violating his gag order at least 10 times and is calling for him to be held in criminal contempt. between closing his eyes, refusing to stand for the jury, and doing other reportedly noxious things in court this past week, the queens born builder has shown nothing but contempt for the court and its proceedings. don't lose sight of this one unassailable fact. on monday, donald trump will be sitting before a jury of his peers, being held accountable for alleged criminal act. joining me now is former federal prosecutor, senior writer for political magazine. also with me, kathryn question, she served as an assistant district attorney for the manhattan da office. thank you both for being here. this is a jump off. what will you be watching for

during the opening statement? >> on the da said if i will be interested in how they set up this case for the jury. is it a case about election interference versus a hush money case. they that it will be the case about election interference and this will be the first opportunity to present to the jury the proper frame to think about this case. we should also expect them to give a narrative of what the evidence will show during the case. that should be informative for us because a lot of this is not yet fully known for those of us on the outside looking in. trumps lawyers will have an opportunity to preview defenses. they haven't in the government's entire case. i expect a lot of it will be about michael cohen, stormy daniels and a lack of credibility. >> let me stick with you one quick second. you said we will see the narrative for the first time. the opening statement, is that when we will hear maybe new evidence, things we haven't heard before? >> it is very possible. there is a reason lawyers call

them opening statements instead of opening argument. closing arguments is the right terminology because lawyers are doing what the evidence showed. an opening statement is a narrative about what the facts will show in the trial and what evidence the jury should expect to see. we should learn some new things on monday. >> catherine, what will you be watching for? >> it is a preview of the evidence. it is a table of contents for the jury. it shouldn't be very long. you don't want to bore the jury. you are not doing arguments. i am looking to see what evidence we don't know about that wasn't in the indictment, that wasn't in the statement of facts that hasn't been leaked. that's very interesting. the difference opening, first of all, in new york, the difference doesn't have to give

an opening. they will do one in this case, i've never seen a defense attorney miss an opportunity of doing an opening because they don't have to prove anything. i'll be interested to see what they do. they just keep it very simple because they want to wait to hear the witnesses and see the documents? i'm interested in what the defense is going to say on their opening. >> catherine, do you think trump will testify? if he does, what kind of questions should he expect? >> i don't think he will. first of all, most defendants don't. it is not like if he doesn't, it's a surprise that he didn't. he can expect, well, first of all, we will find out monday what prior bad acts he has, including his civil judgments that judge merchan will allow the prosecutors to question him about. it might be, and judge merchan needs to be careful. he has to be careful to not be prejudicial. it is a balancing act. you can't question the defendant to show they did it before, therefore they will do it again. it is about showing lack of credibility, lack of honesty. the judgments due to defamation, making false

statements with reckless disregard for the truth. he should be allowed, he should be questioned about them by the prosecution. he should be questioned about the fact that a judge found that he committed persistent and repeated fraud in his business. that is appropriate. i don't think it is appropriate to ask him that he has a verdict for sexual assault. and suppressed the prosecutors included that. that has nothing to do with veracity or credibility. when i'm saying he should be careful, harvey weinstein, we are waiting, all of his practitioners in new york are waiting to find out if his conviction will be reversed because that judge their allowed many, many prior bad acts and so he didn't testify. >> ankush khardori, let me get you on the gag order hearing. why do you think judge merchan has we did this long to wait in on alleged gang quarter violations? >> there could be a couple of

reasons. one, this last week, he wanted to focus on peddling the jury and that is a significant imposition on the people that are called in. conscientious judges don't like to keep prospective jurors just waiting. they want to get them moving and be respectful of their time. a second reason potentially is to give donald trump an opportunity to fix his behavior, to reform himself in the days between when the hearing was scheduled and when it is set. that will be pertinent to the judge to purchase this issue. can this man stop doing the things he's not supposed to be doing ? >> on that issue, trump was fined $15,000 for violating the gag order in the civil fraud case. is there a possibility that, let's say donald trump doesn't reform his behavior, as you just said, could we see the possibility of judge merchan putting, one, holding trump in contempt and then punishing him by making him spend the night

in jail? >> that's always a possibility. the judge has that power. however, he is taking some steps or allowing the da office to take steps to impose punishment that is subtler and more powerful. for instance, last week, the da office that they were not going to tell donald trump's lawyers which witnesses they are calling first. that is highly unusual. it is a courtesy lawyers usually extend to other lawyers but they don't want to do it here because trump keeps running his mouth about the prospective witnesses. that is a significant disadvantage with the defense team do not know what witnesses will be up, not know which cross-examination's need to be prepared, would lawyers need to be ready to be on their feet when witnesses get called. that is worse than the money. >> ankush khardori, catherine question, thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show. a programming note for monday, tune in to msnbc for special coverage of opening statements in former president trump's new york hush money and election interference trial. tune in monday starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern right here on msnbc.

up next, more on the drama on capitol hill as the house votes on critical aid for america's allies. pressure mounts on republican house speaker mike johnson. by members of his own party want him out and what happens if democrats have to come to his rescue. his rescue. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. don't get prevnar 20® if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans.

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house speaker mike johnson scored a huge victory today with passage of a $61 billion aid package for ukraine. but, his grip on the speaker's gavel is increasingly tenuous. not only did more than half of house republicans voted against the measure, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene slammed it as, "ds." >> this is the third betrayal by mike johnson. this bs, foreign war package that has nothing for america. i do not support mike johnson. he is already a lame duck.

if we had a vote in our conference, he would not be speaker today. >> that was a vigorous bs. the trail? lame-duck? the drama. notice what she didn't do. for all her grandstanding, marjorie taylor greene did not try to remove johnson from the speakership and gave no timeline for when she might bring the motion to vacate to the floor. still, speaker johnson is in quite a pickle. the republican speaker of the house can't seem to govern or get anything done without democratic votes. joining me now, former department of homeland security chief of staff, miles taylor, author of "blowback, a warning to save democracy from transfer event." also with me, maria teresa kumar, president and ceo of photo latino. thank you both very much for coming back to the show. miles, mdg has two cosponsors for the motion to vacate but they haven't triggered yet. what does that signal to you? >> it signals to me, jonathan, that the same republicans who

fomented an insurrection into the united states capitol are now doing one within the republican conference. this, i think, is the start of it. i suspect that after this weeklong recess, you are actually going to see the temperature got up a little rather than down. johnson will be in a very, very difficult predicament. now, he was able to claim victory this week with the passage of the foreign aid bill. i think there's a very good chance this might be one of those things that is the last victory of rational republicans before what i would call a mass extinction event. what do i mean by that? i mean this showed the radical wing of the party that the rational wing still has some influence and it is going to be infuriating to them. people like michael mccall, who was my former boss on capitol hill. >> looks like miles -- >> people are, or a dying

breed. >> we are going to try to get miles. we've got miles back. keep going, miles. >> sorry about that, jonathan. i was just saying, people like michael mccall, chairman of the foreign aid committee, foreign affairs committee, he is a dying breed of republican in this conference. and, i worry we will see a lot of those republicans disappearing after this vote. it is a coin flip about whether the motion to vacate goes forward. for now, speaker johnson cannot count on still being the speaker for the balance of this year. >> right. maria teresa, unless house democrats, to speaker johnson's rescue. house minority leader hakeem jeffries hasn't said yet whether he's willing to save johnson's speakership. here is what he told reporters

yesterday. watch this. >> at the appropriate time, as house democrats, we will have a conversation about how to deal with any hypothetical motion to vacate, which, at this point, hasn't been noticed. >> do you think johnson should stay as a speaker question >> i don't have a view on that one way or the other. one step at a time, in terms of what is in front of us. >> what do you make of that? >> i clutch my pearls. congress is functioning as it should. i say this because i used to work in congress a long, long time ago. a functioning government required that you had democratic and republican support to pass bills because ultimately what you want to do is the will of the people. the fact that marjorie taylor greene is so new to congress, she fails to understand her function in that and other members of congress. that is you will have divisive

legislation but the whole point of the speakership is to bring others along from the other side of the party. he may have taken a few notes from nancy pelosi. i don't know if johnson will admit to that. in all seriousness, this idea that they are going to find other individuals and try to oust someone like johnson who is very right, endorsed by trump, is hard to fathom, in part because they are going into the most tenuous election for the house this coming election season. and, the house right now only holds its majority on the republican side by a very, very thin margin. what they are trying to do right now, looking back, what they are trying to do is create the extreme right to say i'm taking my bowling balls and going home but to create pathway so they can be able to have the house at the end of the day. this is far more political. it is one of the reasons why marjorie taylor greene says i'm not ousting him tomorrow.

it is far more theatrical than it is material. >> if i hurt miles correctly, this is all about fundraising, that this, they are not going to move on the speaker. miles, scott mcafee says the ukraine aid bill does nothing for americans. this is something right out of the vladimir putin playbook, out of the disinformation playbook. we've had the republican chair of the intelligence committee saying for weeks that russian misinformation has now infiltrated the house and among house republicans. is that the way you see it? i know this is something you are very concerned about. >> very concerned. jonathan, you and i have had a conversation about this. we see that just this week, the intelligence community made clear that russian interference in this election had begun we

are starting to see that start to happen. michael mccall on the foreign affairs committee have been warning their colleagues that they are parroting russian propaganda. this is really alarming. it will get worse as the year goes on. and, it is directly tied to this debate about the direction the republican party is going. some of those rational republicans either have to resign their seats or someone like mike johnson, who seems to be siding with the rational side, gets outed as a speaker, you will see the pro-kremlin caucus of the republican party rising in influence during an election in which the russians are trying to influence the outcome. this is worse, in my view, or could be worse than it was in 2016 with russian interference,

misinformation and disinformation. part of that is the technology the kremlin will bring to bear to sow chaos and discord in our election. >> don't go anywhere. we will continue this conversation with my panel after the break, including what is at stake if donald trump is reelected. don't go anywhere. you are watching the saturday show. urday show. good to go nonstop. with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider. just 6 times a year. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you're taking certain medicines which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems, mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness.

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in case you needed another reason to fear the possibility of donald trump winning reelection, or winning election to another term, some democratic members of the january 6th committee and some of the witnesses who testified on cbs news they expect to face

retaliation and even arrest if trump gets back in the white house. donald trump seemed to confirm those fears last month, when he posted this on social media about the vice chair of the committee, former republican congressman liz cheney. "she should go to jail along with the rest of the on select committee." >> miles taylor and maria teresa kumar. miles, you updated your book and the title includes the line "a warning to save democracy from trumps revenge." do you think democrats who served on the january 6th committee have reason to fear serious legal retribution from trump? >> yes, absolutely. it really is genuinely donald trump's intent in a second term to launch investigations through the justice department against his enemies. his justice department is not going to do this in a way that feels immediately political and illegal. they are going to find ways to,

as i like to say, bubble wrap it and launch investigations that have at least a thin veneer of a reasonable predicate in order to move forward. make the mistake, they will be political prosecutions. donald trump had said that as far back as when i was in his first term. he would talk about how it was his strategy to sue people not because he had a case against them but to sue them to force them to settle and to put them through difficulty. he did it in his business career, he wanted to do it with his first term justice department. often, he got rained in. in a second term, he won't be reined in. i want to add one more point to that. for this book, i had trump

officials who served alongside me but stayed longer tell me about how they worried he would even use homeland security powers to harass these former members of congress and current members of congress on the other side and i said how ? they said when you go through tsa or cbp and they searched through someone's pocket letter and devices if they suspect him of being tied to extremist groups ? those are the authorities they will start using against political adversaries. they will say they need to go through their devices, they need to go through their personal effects. this is not hyperbole. this is the type of thing they are planning to do in a second donald trump administration. >> that would be weaponizing the federal government against the american people. but, you know, optimizing the doj is an aspect of trumps plans , if he gets another term. he also seems to be planning mass deportation of undocumented people and putting them in detention camps. we saw him do something similar to this when he was president from 17 to 21. how worried are you that the reporting we have seen about what he's planning if he gets a second bite at the apple will be infinitely worse?

>> let's preface this by saying this is not normal. this idea that a, critically elected president decides to have a nice the powers of government against individuals that were basically doing their job is not normal. in a functioning democracy, it is not normal. one of the things that trump likes to say is he likes to point fingers at banana republics. you know who does exactly what is threatening to do? banana republic. is not a democracy. for every single american, regardless of our political stripes, we should take everything donald trump says seriously because everything he said he was going to do on the campaign trail in 2016, he actually did accept build infrastructure. so, as we continue to go down this route, when he says he's going to deport and do roundups

of immigrants and undocumented immigrants, he is trying to use code words and recognizing anybody who's not white will be a target for deportation. you cannot tell who and american citizen is simply by how they look or how they sound. under trump, there were several u.s. american citizens who were deported accidentally or held in the processing. this is something that we know donald trump wants to do. he uses anti-immigrant rhetoric as red bait for an extreme portion of the american people but they are not the majority of the american people. for those individuals who are saying that politics is too messy for them, they don't like the back and forth, they don't like the fact that there's too much tension, we need you in the game. otherwise, by you deciding to sit it out, it is under someone like donald trump that will take the white house and what he intends to do with our democracy is ensuring that not only are individuals, people who are not white, their rights are violated but everybody else. when he says he doesn't believe

in an abortion ban, don't take him at his word. he told us that he does. we have to make sure we are all on red alert when he says he wants to open ice the department of justice and he will. >> time always applies when i get one of you on the show with me but the two of you together, the time just works. i thank you both very much for this important discussion. thank you as always for coming to the saturday show. up next, the school shooting that horrified the nation 25 years ago today. we will take a closer look at how columbine changed the country forever and yet many of the root causes that led to the deadly day have yet to be addressed. addressed. ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining.

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for pneumococcal pneumonia. today marks a heart- wrenching anniversary of one of the deadliest school shootings in the united states. it has been 25 years since 2 students opened fire at columbine high school in colorado, fatally shooting 12 classmates and a teacher before turning their weapons on themselves. the infamous massacre sent shockwaves to the nation and became a blueprint for other copycat shootings. now kids have to practice magic shooter drills at school, starting at an early age. this tragic anniversary is not the only one we are facing. monday will mark the sixth anniversary of a deadly shooting at a waffle house in nashville, tennessee, where a white man fatally shot four people of color, triggering a 34 hour manhunt before his arrest. joining me now, director of the

center for edison, health, and society at vanderbilt university and the author of "what we've become: living and dying in a country of arms. dr. jonathan metzel, thank you for coming to the show. president biden released a statement reflecting on the columbine school shooting anniversary and he's asking congress to " do something," so communities won't continue to suffer due to the epidemic of gun violence. this year alone, there have been 19 gun related deaths and schools. in your view, what has changed since columbine and what still needs to change? >> i think it is important to remember that columbine was a wake of the moment for a particular kind of problem that intersected semi automatic weapons. it was a shooting that happened in a suburban area, white children were the victims as well other people. it brought a question of gun violence home to a lot of people. i just remember that moment as

a being like this moment where we are going to turn the course, this is not going to stand. we had come together as a nation. we had done and assault weapons ban a couple of decades before. we had come together to arrest the kinds of public health emergencies, cigarettes and drunk driving and asbestos. i think people felt like we have hit bottom. we've hit bottom and this is the moment where we come together. i will say that many important things happened after columbine. it was the beginning of the modern gun safety movement. all the groups that we have now, all the remarkable efforts that we have no. unfortunately, it was very far from the bottom. we have seen many more guns and many more shootings. and away, we feel farther away from any kind of resolution, even after that shooting. >> i just want to point out to

folks who might be listening. we just showed pictures of the 12 students and one teacher who were killed on that day 25 years ago today. just showing the picture again right now. your book takes a deep dive into the 2018 waffle house shooting and how these mass shooters reveal a lot about the issues on race and mental health we continue to face in our country. can you expand on that? >> my book takes a deep dive into that 2018 waffle house shooting. it was a shooting where a naked white shooter went into a waffle house in a part of nashville where it was 2:30 in the morning, full of young adults of color celebrating after the clubs closed and it was many things. it was a mentally ill mass shooting, it was a race shooting, it was a sign of what happens in a state like tennessee with our pathologically loose gun laws. in many ways, it is the same thing where our town came together and said enough is enough. we will turn course. this has shown us the worst of humanity. now let's turn course. i want to say there are a lot

of people building from the horror of that moment, people running for office, the mother of one of the victims of that shooting is running for state office in tennessee. there are many things that come out of the aftermath of the horror. again and again, it was a similar story, which was the people demanded some kind of action. because tennessee is a super majority state, there was no pressure. nobody was going to get pushed out of office or voted out of office. instead, what we've seen is a dramatic expansion in every kind of law that led to the shooting. people can carry guns without permits. now we are arming teachers, long guns to people 18 and older. we have this total disconnect between what people know. as a society to keep our country safe and what the political process in its gerrymandered state right now is delivering, which is, unfortunately, more of these mass shootings.

>> dr. jonathan metzel, the question occurs to me when we showed a picture of the waffle house shooter. was he taking a life after that manhunt? >> yes, that is the story i tell in the book. not only was he taken alive, what show is there were five or six incidences before the shooting. he tried to jump the fence at the white house, he came to the attention of the fbi and he jumped make it into a pool and jumped out and shook his gun at people. the story i ask in the book is what does it take to this on a white man in america? that is really the story of the book. it turns out, it is very hard because the loss, the system, people see a white gun as a patriot. he was taken alive after the shooting. he was not killed. >> dr. jonathan metzel, as always, thank you very much for coming to the show. >> thanks so much. up next on the saturday

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my name is oluseyi and some of my favorite moments throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. going the wrong way on the street there. we normally expect everything in washington to move at a glacial pace. today,, things moved pretty fast in the capitol. a red bull formula one race car

sped down pennsylvania avenue in washington as part of a promotional showcase. fastest movement on pennsylvania avenue is usually when members of congress are heading out on recess, like today. that will do it for me. thank you for watching. be sure to tune in tomorrow to the sunday show when retired general wesley clark joins us to discuss the foreign aid package in his letter to president biden on the need for a new strategic approach for our new geopolitical era tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. you can follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, france. you can also catch