over the past four days this week, like in many other cities across the country, hundreds of

new yorkers reported for jury duty. upon entering the courthouse in lower manhattan, these new yorkers discovered the defendant in the criminal case sitting before them was the former president, donald trump when the prospective jurors were initially asked if they could be impartial during the trial of donald trump, many came forward and said they could not, point blank. those people were dismissed and got to come home. the 20 said they could remain fair and impartial, they were then questioned further during what is called the voire dire process. what they do for fun, how they consume their news, they live their lives. one potential juror elicited left one he said his hobby is, "trying to find a wife." another admitted to subscribing to "the new york times,", "mostly for the crossword puzzle." another said he cleans his local dog park twice a year as "meditation."

several admitted to having read a little bit of trumps book. none of those people made the jury. one of the unfortunate consequences of this part of the jury selection process is that many identifiable details about potential jurors were published by the press, putting the jury's ultimate anonymity at risk. yesterday, one jury, originally juror number two, asked to be excused for this very reason. the judge granted her request and warned of the media to be careful about revealing identifiable information. another potential juror was dismissed today after telling the court she has, "really bad anxiety when people have found out where i am." anxiety is completely understandable for a criminal trial of this historic magnitude. there is a heightened level of intensity inside the courtroom and unsigned. donald trump has a history of riling up followers, some of them go on to commit violence and has been checking the judicial process day in and day out, calling it "corrupt," and,

"a witch hunt." trump posted a video on true social that wrongfully attacked the drivers, all in an attempt to paint the process as rigged. >> this is a manhattan jury. it went 87% for biden. >> one of the jury said, "i don't believe they can be fair." the deck is stacked against him. >> trump violated election laws. okay. what laws? >> not often that our buddy von hilliard makes it into one of those ads. you may have noticed my colleagues in the video donald trump posted. what von hilliard was talking about was the former juror number two, the woman who asked to be removed from the trial because she felt the exposure of her identity, which was described at length by the media, meant she could no longer be fair. it wasn't a confession that she was biased against trump but defendant donald trump's project all along has been to distort the truth surrounding this trial to attack the

process, to undermine the judicial system. in yet another last-ditch effort this afternoon, trumps lawyers tried to get an emergency stay from a new york state appeals court, arguing there was no possible way for trump to get a fair trial in manhattan. the response from the district attorney, alvin bragg's office was simple . with the last week has shown is that the jury selection has worked. "we have 18 ordinary new yorkers who are ready to serve. it would be unfair to them and the public for this trial to be delayed further." the appeals court judge agreed and rejected trump's request. right now, the good news is amidst all the intensity and the rock is, the judicial system so far has not meant to trumps attacks. despite what he says, the system is working for the former president, just like it would for any other american. at the end of today, a full jury in a 12 member jury with 6 alternates was seated. donald trump's peers, who may

ultimately decide whether or not to convict him as a felon. now, after the jury was selected, the focus turned to what trump might say, not the lies he spews outside the courtroom but what he might say under oath if he indeed chooses to take the stand. trump has previously indicated he plans to testify in this case. today, he is sticking to that story. >> president trump's, are you going to testify? >> yes. >> whether he actually will or will not, we shall see. under new york law, if a criminal defendant wishes to testify in their own defense, they are granted what is known as a sandoval notice, which ensures that the defendant is aware of the lines of questioning the prosecution may ask. the purpose is to make sure the defendant is not caught off guard when testifying in on the stand. some of the things the manhattan da office wants to six and trump about are the civil trials trump must be the eugene carol defamation trial

and the fraud trial. judge merchan said he will decide on monday what is permitted in trumps test money. monday is when potentially the first witness testimony is set to begin. with me now, the aforementioned nbc news correspondent von hilliard, who has been reporting on the trial, as well as msnbc legal analyst catherine christian, who served as special assistant da in the manhattan district attorney's office. good evening to both of you. thank you for being with us. let's start with the sandoval hearing, the idea that donald trump says he will testify in his own defense. he is entitled to know what the length of questioning is and it is not a given that whatever the a says he wants to ask will be asked be to the da presents the judge with the length of questioning and the judge determines ? >> this afternoon, the district attorney's office make the case to the judge that a series of other trial determined from the

civil fraud lawsuit to the e jean carroll lawsuit, there was a couple years ago trump filed a lawsuit against andrea clinton in which he was punished with a $1 million fine for a frivolous lawsuit and they want to present to the jury each of these different trial determinations to question the credibility of donald trump. the district attorney's office argued to the judge, look, the defense attorneys for donald trump are going to question our witnesses and their credibility from michael cohen to stormy daniels, we should be up to build a body of evidence out beyond this case that shows and questions donald trump's veracity of the statements he makes. >> catherine, let's talk a little bit about the jurors. we have 12 jurors. >>, i make one quick, can i make one correction ? it is not to let the defendant know kind of questioning, it is to let the defendant know what prior bad acts they will ask about. the other questions, he's going to be surprised about. anything about, you know, prior judgments or prior bad acts, he

has to be made aware of that. sorry. >> they do not have to disclose things that are not about his prior bad acts, they can do with any line of questioning they want but if they talk about tiger things that have happened to donald trump or he has done, then he has to know about that. >> exactly. >> thank you for that clarification. let's talk about 12 jurors, 6 alternates, the maximum number of alternates. typically speaking, a case doesn't run out of jurors and alternates but as the pressure continues to be on these tours and or their identities become known either because the media doesn't handle this well or for whatever reason, is there any concern that some full complement of jurors doesn't make it to the end of this trial ? >> definitely. that is why judge merchan shows the maximum allowable alternates allowed in new york unless it is a murder one case. we already had one yesterday come back and say on second thought she can't handle it.

now there's a weekend. the hope is the 12 that are seated will still remain strong and say that they can still be fair and impartial. if they are not, there will be six ready to fill in. of course, we hope the six alternates also will still want to be on the jury and can still remain fair and impartial. the judge can and the court can do something about making the jurors feel more secure. a few, i think in this case, which was done in trumps federal trial, the judge should, and it's going to cost money but court officers should be protecting them when they go to lunch, maybe in an undisclosed location as a group, and they should be escorted home in groups. they have to live in manhattan so we are not talking about a long commute. you are not sequestering them. they are not staying at a hotel but you are protecting them during the trial. >> what, in your opinion, how

did it go, the jury selection? we got it done inside of a week. it seemed to go with relative haste. this people who were not going to be jurors were dismissed quickly. what was your sense of it as you were sitting there watching it questioning >> donald trump's opportunity, had the opportunity to go and use their challenges to eliminate several potential jurors they watched. donald trump over the course of the next six, seven weeks will become very familiar with the faces of those 12 jurors and 6 alternates in their. when it comes to donald trump in a courtroom, over the last year, he has become quite familiar with one, not only from the civil fraud trial but we have to go back to the e jean carroll trial in january of 2024. there has been a jury that is heard testimony, granted it was three minutes of testimony from donald trump and they in january determined $87 million penalty in the e jean carroll defamation suit. donald trump has had a new york jury ruled against him but

before another question is over the course of the 6 to 7 weeks, with that intense pressure that are on these individuals, of course, we heard them even during their vetting process, if you make the same several of them question, i've heard from family and friends, even colleagues question am i a juror? without identifying, everything from a neighborhood to their jobs, to whether they are married or not, undoubtedly over the weeks ahead, folks will become familiar with those closest to them of who these jurors are. for donald trump communal, it is out of his control, it is in the hands of his legal team unless he chooses to testify. >> catherine, let's talk about this business about donald trump testifying. he maintains he's going to, is that good or bad for him and do you think it will happen ? >> i don't think it will happen. he has an absolute right to testify and unfortunately for his attorneys, they have no control over him, which is another reason why he shouldn't testify. but, if he does, i think it will be good for the prosecution case and bad for

his case because he's out of control. and, this judge will not let him sit there and pontificate. he will have to answer questions. and, the judge can just shut them down if he's not following the rules. they shut him down meaning you are on the stand, it's over if he is not following the rules and not answering questions. why? there is a jury there. this is not like the civil fraud case where it was just a judge. there is a jury there and this judge will not allow there to be prejudicial information adding to this jury. >> talking about following the rules, already some questions about whether donald trump has been following the rules in terms of the things he has been posting. yesterday, the prosecution was, well, the prosecution was supposed to tell the court who they are going to call to the stand on monday. yesterday, the defense asked for the first three witness names. the prosecution said they didn't trust donald trump not to treat those names so they said they will give the defense one on sunday and "if that

should be treated, that is last time we will provide that courtesy." this seems to be back and forth between the trump defense team and the prosecutor. has the judge sounded in on this ? >> yes, glenn kirschner when todd blanche went to the judge looking for that request and taught plaintiffs said welcome i can affirm that my client, donald trump is not going to post on social media about the names of these witnesses and glenn kirschner said i don't know if we can trust your representation on behalf of your client. essentially, they had not saying you may be in good faith making that statement but we have seen donald trump operate and we don't know if we can trust that. but they have allowed is, on monday, the prosecution, they said respect and deference for the legal team, they will provide the name of the witness that will come forward on monday. court will be abbreviated for passover on monday. on the go to 2:00 p.m. eastern. we are expecting just the initial questioning of this witness but then the cross-

examination will not begin until tuesday. >> how does that work practically, catherine? at some point, the witnesses will be known. what is the goal here? what is the thing, what is the assurance the court has to have from donald trump about what he will not do as it relates to witnesses ? in theory, there will be a series of witnesses whom we will know about. >> there is a gag order, which, in my opinion, he has been violating. and, there is a hearing on that on tuesday. typically, when you have a normal case and you have a defendant who is not like donald trump, you give over the witness list to the defense and you say, and you and out court tomorrow, we are going to call mr. jones, ms. smith, and if there's time, ms. christian. so, the defense will know and you do that as a courtesy so they can prepare their cross- examination. but, in this case, and the prosecutors are right to do this, you don't want to do that with this particular defendant because you don't want them, as they said, tweeting about them.

and, intimidating them before they take the stand because they, the same way we are concerned about jurors being afraid to come to court, same thing will happen with witnesses. they don't want that to happen to them. one donald trump tweets negatively about people, his followers, some of them, tend to attack those people. >> will be an interesting few days to watch. thank you to both of you. we appreciate it. catherine christian is a msnbc legal analyst, von hilliard is a msnbc correspondent. we appreciate your time tonight. coming up, iran's foreign minister says israeli strikes inside his country were "like toys that our children play with." we will discuss the latest tensions in the region. first, it looks like the house looks like it will pass a foreign aid bill to help ukraine. far right member's are furious. will the republican speaker, micah johnson, survive the fall out? that is next. next. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets.

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after months of delay, it looks like the house will finally pass much-needed foreign aid for the embattled nation of ukraine. today, the house voted 316-94 to allow for separate votes on bills to fund ukraine, israel, and taiwan. now it looks like the house will pass each of those eight bills tomorrow or they will certainly try to. the drum and the house is far from over. today, the far right arizona, rissman paul goes-r announced

he would be joining his colleagues marjorie taylor greene and thomas massey of kentucky in supporting a measure to oust speaker mike johnson. a so-called motion to vacate. if all democrats vote together against the speaker, mike johnson can only afford to lose two republican votes to save his receipt. the republican congress and mike gallagher is expended to leave congress, after each speaker johnson can only afford to lose a single vote. spec that was a thin margin, the speaker is projecting confidence he's going to stay in the job. >> are you worried about your job ? >> i don't worry, i just do my job. >> is it time to put the motion to vacate on the floor? >> we will see what happens. i'm not deterred by threats. we will do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may. >> three republicans now seemingly committed to ousting johnson, the speaker will need help from democrats in order to

stay in his job. will any of them help him? today, the house minority leader, hakeem jeffries, cup reporters and suspense about what he and his caucus plans to do. >> at the appropriate time as house democrats, we will have a conversation about how to deal with any hypothetical motion to vacate. marjorie taylor greene, massey and paul gosar are quite a group. ensure that will play some role in our conversation. >> joining us now, democrat of connecticut and ranking member on the house intelligence committee, congressman, good to see you again, thank you for being with us. what a several months this has been. mike johnson went from being a back bench congressman to someone privy to sensitive intelligence about our foreign adversaries. i don't know, did that

contribute to his change of heart on the need to pass this ukraine aid bill? he was a hold out himself. >> i think it did. i really think it did. look, i don't think i agree with speaker johnson on anything political. but, i will say that he, look, he said two months ago we are going to pass the budget and we had a freak out over with the weather there could be a shutdown. he said we would pass 702, which we did last week in the house. now i think we are going to pass ukraine and israel supplemental and it has all got them. i don't think i agree with anything he thinks politically but he appears to do what he says he's going to do and he's gotten stuff done. yes, of course he's going to be threatened by, i love the way hakeem jeffries put it, quite a group. the absolute most french members of congress. >> talk to me about the logic. some of the logic is, i suppose when the election comes around, democrats could say the business of america needs to be

done and we support the business of america being done. on the other hand, micah johnson was, has been, and continues to be an election denier, an ally of donald trump, what is in it for republicans to help him ? >> you mean democrats? >> i'm sorry, yes, what is it for democrats ? >> it is for us to be, in fact, i think his problem is more with republicans than democrats. the answer is very, very clear, which is we demonstrated in the last congress we are the bipartisan party of getting stuff done. we got the bipartisan into the structure law done after it was a joke for years and years. we got the inflation reduction act, which capped insulin at $35.00 a month for diabetics. i could go on about this. we showed in the last congress that almost everything was accomplished was bipartisan and then in this congress, imagine going into november and being able to say that the only

reason in the last congress anything got done, that a government shutdown was averted, that ukraine aid was provided was because the democrats were willing to work with a speaker you just as you say is ideologically everything that we do not believe in. you asked a political question. what is in it for us is to demonstrate time and time again that we are about getting things done for the american people, not about partisan posturing or social media antics, all the marjorie taylor greene. >> is there an abiding fear, do you think about or will be about or care that if micah johnson disappears, someone less palatable shows up in his job? >> what we know for sure, because we have seen this movie before, when kevin mccarthy was to fenestrated, what we know for sure is that means a time of abject chaos. it was three weeks in the case of speaker mccarthy before mike johnson was finally voted in. and, look, there is a tension, there is a tension here.

it is not our job as democrats to save republicans from their manifest dysfunction. on the other hand, if you set aside our partisan interest, which i think we regularly do we are about delivering. so, we delivered the rule today, more democrats voted for a republican rule, this is unheard of, more democrats voted for a republican rule then republicans did and i think that tomorrow, we will be the margin of victory for you ukraine aid, aid to israel and humanitarian aid for the people of gaza. >> in order to do that, to save micah johnson and to get what you just said, the 82 ukraine, taiwan, aid to israel, do democrats discuss now wanting more out of this deal? like they would if this were a minority government in a parliamentarian, in a parliamentary situation? is there, is this going to be on a piecemeal aces for these

three bills or will there be a larger discussion between hakeem jeffries and leadership, and mike johnson's team to say this is what going forward looks like for us? >> i think, i think that conversation is inevitable. tomorrow, i think we will pass all these bills with a super majority and that is a whole other conversation. imagine a majoritarian body in a democracy held up by three or four french members and then when the vote happens on ukraine or israel, you have a massive majority in support. to your question, yes, there is very little doubt in my mind that after these things pass, marjorie taylor greene or paul gosar or one of those guys will call for a motion to vacate. we won't have to deal with it tomorrow, we will deal with it when we come back. that is the moment when we say, when presumably speaker johnson goes to hakeem jeffries and says look, who knows what is going to happen. i could be replaced with somebody you can't work with, we could have weeks and weeks of dysfunction. let's talk about what the democrats do to protect my job. that will be fascinating.

you labeled executive what it would be. it would be a coalition government, which, by the way, will be appalling to a lot of members of the majority. guess what, guys, you had a majority and you screwed it up. i think there is a conversation to be had. obviously, it will be had by hakeem jeffries. i am a pragmatist. if that results in us getting more things done on the other side of this ukraine vote, that is something we should absolutely consider. >> thank you separator analysis and time. congressman jim himes of connecticut. house intelligence committee ranking member. thank you, sir. we have lots this evening, including the apparent double standard universities are applying to student protests and diversity of thought. michelle goldberg from "the new york times," joins me on that. iran is responding to israel's strike overnight by denying a strike happened overall. what the downplaying means for raised fears of a wider war in the region, next. on, next. mor. any time of the day. what people don't know is that not all dirt is the same. you need dirt with the right kind of nutrients.

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israeli forces carried out an overnight military strike inside iran in what appears to be israel's first response to iran's unprecedented drone and missile strike over israeli territory last weekend. iranian officials say the strike targeted a military air base near the historic city of isfahan. iran's foreign minister hossein amir-abdollahian said

the strikes were "more like toys that our children play with ." a former iranian diplomat dismissed it as "fireworks." according to u.s. military sources, israel had notified the biden administration through multiple channels shortly before the attack. today, secretary of state antony blinken made clear the u.s. "has not been involved in any offensive operations" and did not endorse the military action. this attack between israel and iran represent a level of escalation in a region that is already reeling from israel's ravaging war in gaza. yet, the restraint rhetoric, from both parties today and the limited scope of the responses so far also suggests that neither side is willing or ready for an all out war. joining me now is a journalist who has spent decades covering israel and palestine. it is

great to see you in real life. it is important for our viewers to know, we've been talking for a few years about this. this is not new, this is not a post october 7th thing. you are steeped in the difficulties, the domestic difficulties in israel, the difficulties between israel and its palestinian neighbors, and, of course, this issue with iran, which has been regimen netanyahu calls for a long time, his existence is based on the advocate that iran poses an existential threat to israel. >> that's right. i think 30 years after he started on this line, israel confronts iranian weapons on almost all its borders, gaza, lebanon, syria and yemen, you are absolutely right, every other red sea. for the first time ever in history of this entire conflict, which dates back to 1979, iran dared to directly attack israel with 350 drones and cruise missiles. >> regardless of what happened

that is a massive attack. >> absolutely. >> there are words in which you don't, and all the time i've covered russia ukraine, there has never been a day when there have been 350 projectiles that have gone into ukraine. >> it was a show of force for iran, a successful show of force. they over flew one of the holiest sites in islam, there were interceptions over the israeli parliament. this is absolutely a major attack and the major show that they can do it. i have to say that it is also a failure for benjamin netanyahu, who has had for the past three decades that he is mr. security and he is the only guy who knows how to stand up to iran and here israel is, you know, absolutely under a barrage from iran. >> i've been reading some things this week in which the military establishment is getting increasingly frustrated with benjamin netanyahu because there is a feeling that what is good for benjamin netanyahu is

not good for the safety and peace of israelis. >> that is right. i want to point out to you and i have been talking about this for more than a year becoming benjamin anatole, when benjamin netanyahu returned to power and announced a takeover of the state institutions, a judicial coup d'itat, the military was among the first bodies to warn him this is going to harm the security of the state. that was behind some of the major protests that dogged him until this war began. >> this is a thing we have seen time and time again around the world, particularly with strongman pipe leaders who are otherwise in trouble, as benjamin netanyahu is because he is in the midst of a criminal prosecution. not only do they want to hold onto power but external attacks typically strengthen them. attacks on the country typically strengthen them. since last night, since the second one i've been covering

this, i've spoken to people who increasingly say that is not necessarily what is about to happen or what is happening right now in israel. >> that's right. israel is the outlier in this respect. he was an unpopular prime minister just ahead of the war because of what we are talking about and his popularity has crashed since i think in part, it is because he sold himself to the israeli people as their security guard, their savior. only i can do it. i can go through years of campaign slogans that show that. i want to add another aspect, which is he also said he was israel's mr. security and the fact that he was the chief diplomat. that has also crashed and burned and israel faces now a level of critique internationally that israelis are not accustomed to. i think israelis in general are seeing benjamin netanyahu as

flailing in the situation. >> there is reporting from "the wall street journal, we have not been able to confirm that the united states is splitting an idea that if israel accepts a two state solution, something benjamin netanyahu has not only been against but has been elected on the basis from day one of standing against, if they were to accept that, the united states would arrange for saudi arabia to recognize israel and normalize relations, which, in., would lead to other arab neighbors doing so. sounds like an interesting idea. any possibility of it being true or getting any traction? >> i think it is very likely true. i don't have 100% confirmation but in jerusalem, people are operating as if that were an option on the table. the issue is the united states doesn't control either what saudi arabia does, with the palestinians will do, and i doubt it is possible with benjamin netanyahu, although it puts him in a terrible, terrible corner, which may be what the biden administration wants, to tie his hands. he has promised israelis that only he can bring peace with saudi arabia and saudi arabia is the holdout. if you think of a 60-year-old israeli, the aspiration of that person's entire life has been to be accepted in the region.

israel faced a boycott for most of its initial decades and warnings from neighboring countries. to be accepted by this behemoth would be huge and for benjamin netanyahu to turn that down would be very tough. >> we will continue this conversation in the morning. you are in town so we will make sure we get our best use out of you. great to see you, my friend. a journalist with decades covering the israeli, palestinian situation and the global situation, thank you for making time for us. coming up, the university president's decision to have more than 100 student protesters arrested sparking a wider conversation about the state of free speech on school campuses here in america. we will have that story, next. . mop smarter

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this is a muslim american student with a major in biomedical engineering and a minor in resistance to genocide. out of the thousands of seniors graduating from the university of southern california this year, she was chosen as valedictorian. as is tradition, was asked to speak at graduation. within days, pro-israel groups at usc where publicly labeling asna tabassum as anti-somatic and demanding she not be

allowed to speak at graduation. on monday, the university of southern california acquiesced to those demands. they canceled her speech. as asna tabassum put it, "the university has betrayed me and caved into a campaign of hatred ." in a letter to the campus, the school's provost said "to be clear, this decision has nothing to do with freedom of speech. the issue here is how best to maintain campus security and safety." what exactly was the danger that asna tabassum posed? asna tabassum has it she didn't even , hadn't even started thinking about what she would say in her speech before it was canceled but the only indication asna tabassum would have mentioned the war in gaza at all came from the pro israel groups on campus demonizing her. even if she did speak about the war in gaza , how is that worthy of censorship? a university's job should be to protect students physical safety, not to guard them from the viewpoints that make them

feel uncomfortable. yesterday, here in new york, the nypd arrested more than 100 students at columbia university who had been camped out on the campuses mainline, calling for the university to divest in its endowment from companies with ties to israel because of the war in gaza. columbia university president minouche shafik herself asked for the nypd to intervene, citing "safety concerns." when asked to characterize the protests, nypd chief john schell said that, "the students that were arrested were useful, offered no resistance whatsoever, and were saying what they wanted to say in a peaceful manner." that is from the police. so why the crackdown? for years, celebrating the right to protest has been integral to columbia university's brand. lee bollinger, who served as columbia university's president from 2002 on the way up until last year once told "the new

york times," the administration's decision to call the police on a vietnam war protest in 1968 was "a serious breach in the ethos of the university.". in 2007, there was a similar encampment style protest set up in the very same area of columbus campus. columbia's response then was to hook up lights for the encampment and to invite the protesters to sleep in common spaces indoors to escape the cold. columbia's campus is the site of major protests all the time. for some reason, the school decided to crackdown on this one. why the change? why the double standard for this particular protest? the day before columbia university president minouche shafik asked the nypd to intervene, she was in washington, d.c. being questioned by republicans in congress about plans of anti- semitism on campus as a group of jewish faculty at columbia wrote in a public letter,

"those republicans questioning her was less concerned with the safety and well-being of jewish students campuses and more leveraging anti-semitism in a wider effort to character and demonize universities as hotbeds of "woke indoctrination." it appears the leverage is working. we will talk to "the new york times" opinion columnist michelle goldberg about all of this after the break." al health meds- (dan) cool hair! (vo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat,

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tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. long live life and long live you. ask your doctor about kisqali today. norman, bad news... and long live you. i never graduated from med school. what? but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year.

i gotta get this deal... that's like $20 a month per unlimited line... i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? we have already suspended 15 students from columbia. we have six on disciplinary probation. these are more disciplinary actions that have been taken probably in the last decade at columbia. >> what are the consequences in this case ? >> five cases who have been taken out of the classroom or dismissed. >> is he one of those? >> he will never work at columbia again. >> columbia beats harvard and

pan. you have done something that they weren't able to do. you have been able to condemn anti-semitism without using the phrase "it depends on the context." >> columbia university president minouche shafik came prepared for tough questions about her handling of anti- semitism on campus during a republican led hearing this week. she talked about expelling students and she committed to firing faculty members who had expressed sympathetic views for hamas. so far, she has escaped the backlash that forced the presidents of the university of pennsylvania and harvard to step down after a previous hearing last december. "the new york times" opinion columnist michelle goldberg explained the long-term consequences of minouche shafik's actions at the university and in this week's hearing. in a piece titled "republicans wanted to crackdown on israel's critics. columbia obliged." she wrote, "by bending over backward to be agreeable,

minouche shafik emerged from the for our growing largely unscathed. all that's been damaged is columbia's guarantee of academic freedom." joining me now is michelle goldberg, "the new york times" opinion columnist. good to have you here. this is a tough conversation because the stuff that we are talking about , the things that offend people in this conversation are offensive. >> i think it is tough for two reasons. there has been genuine incidents of both anti-semitism and callous celebration of terrorism at columbia, as as many other universities, and you also have a left that has created, in some sense, if not created the situation for themselves, has encouraged a really narrow reading of free speech in recent years, has said, talked about emotional harm and emotional safety and that impact matters more than intent and it was always somewhat obvious that eventually the right was going to take that and run with it and that is what we have here. you have basically the right setting the right and also certain pro israel groups

sitting this language makes students feel unsafe and they have a right not to be exposed not to it. >> the question is that vibes are not in tune with what academic freedom needs to be in this country. >> especially because there is so much dispute over what anti- semitism actually means. i think we all know that when a swastika is sprayed in a school bathroom, this is anti-semitism when somebody says something about jewish people but so much of this is about what is acceptable criticism of a country that is currently in the middle of an extremely brutal war subsidized by the united states. >> tough question. >> questions you have to get the answer. >> we as journalists have to be able to discuss and people in academic settings have to be able to discuss. in corporate america, they don't discuss the stuff.

a lot of people avoid this impolite conversation. there are a few places left where we can actually deliberate this universities are one of them. >> i think that what you are seeing, and, this is somewhat unprecedented, this degree of congressional pressure on universities to shut down certain viewpoints. i can't think of a president since the house un-american activities when you have college presidents being hauled up. >> asking specific names of people who are professors. >> specific names, specific ideologies, specific course offerings. this is a remarkable thing, even if you find some of these things that these professors, some of these professors have said to be a parent, do you really want republicans in congress to be deciding where the line is ? >> that is the issue. it is the same thing with my book club. there are books that are and that may not be to your taste. they might actually be a point but the issue is whether or not the state should have a role in making these determinations and then, secondarily, probably more importantly, given the

column you wrote, whether universities should want that to happen. i think we are hopefully thinking that universities are places where they do undertake to guarantee the physical safety of students, the absolute physical safety of students, not how you feel. but, if you are made to be uncomfortable as a student, you might be getting your money's worth at university. >> i would go back and say i think the left should have defended that principal more strongly in the ensuing years but that doesn't make it any less true. now you have the situation where , and it is not just kind of snowflake students saying that students are entitled to emotional safety. it is these organs of the state. >> what happened to the presidents of the university of pennsylvania and harvard, that was awful the way that went down. i am glad minouche shafik gets to live to fight another day. it was a little uncomfortable hearing her say the things that those republicans in that congressional hearing, look, she read the room better than the other presidents did. >> i think that she read that

room but at what cost to her university? now you see these arrests at columbia that have only redoubled the protests. >> the police, even the police have said these kids were doing nothing. >> this is remarkable. you kind of see this is exactly the situation the presidents of harvard and pan and mit were trying to avoid when they refused to say that the phrase from the river to the sea violates school rules because minouche shafik was so eager not to go down that same path, she instead committed think to this extreme and this extreme level of discipline with little precedent in recent years that has certainly not calmed down the situation on her campus. >> do you have some sense the situation will improve anytime soon? >> it doesn't look like it. the protests are still going on. you have large numbers of faculty who have no confidence

in the room and attrition. people are talking about boycotting graduation ceremonies. she handled the hearing may be diplomatically but she hasn't, i don't think she has handled the tensions on her campus well at all. >> good to see you, michelle, thank you as always. michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for "the new york times". that is our show for tonight. before we go, last july on the lcp and book club, we featured a children's story by the actor maulik pancholy. the book was removed from bookshelves in texas and not even a year later, maulik pancholy is facing the burden of censorship once again. this week, a pennsylvania school board canceled maulik pancholy's anti-bullying's beating engagement due to concerns about his "lifestyle." i will speak into the actor, the author, and the activist maulik pancholy tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern on it ali velshi. . what -- the