going to have a hearing on that. if the judge finds that the bond is ineffective, the ag shortly thereafter will be able to seize assets again. >> wow. thank you so much for explaining that, again, that bond hearing on monday. we may have trump opening statements in the new york hush-money trial, as well, on monday. so many balls in the air right now that we're all juggling. we'll stay on top of it here on msnbc. thank you so much, danny, adam, for being with us, yasmin, thank you so much for your great reporting out the courthouse. that's going to do it for us this hour. i'm ana cabrera from new york. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. we made it to friday. it's 4:00 in new york on a very busy day of developments at the courthouse in manhattan where day four of the people of the

state of new york versus donald trump is currently under way. earlier today a harrowing moment outside of the court where a man set himself on fire in the area designated for protesters. we'll talk about that and the potential security implications later in this broadcast. happening right now inside the courthouse, a pivotal hearing focused on the scope of questioning. if and this is a huge if at this point, donald trump should take the stand in his own defense. with the 12 jurors and six alternate jurors who will determine donald trump's fate now selected, the trump trial has turned to an important question -- one on which the entire trial could ultimately hinge. that is what is fair game? should the ex-president take the stand? prosecutors believe that they should be able to bring up a veritable laundry list of trump's past misdeeds over the years, including the verdict in the civil fraud trial where the ex-president was found to have committed years of financial

fraud. prosecutor matthew colangelo said, quote, the repeated fraud and illegality is highly relevant to this case right now. prosecutors also want to introduce the verdicts in the e. jean carroll trials where trump was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation. prosecutors also want to bring up the settlement that trump foundation struck with the new york attorney general as well as trump's businesses being convicted by the manhattan da for tax fraud. all of it to, quote, impeach the credibility of the defendant as prosecutors put it today. the da also wants to bring up a frivolous lawsuit against hillary clinton, one that led to a penalty and rebuke from the judge that reads, quote, trump is a prolific and sophisticated litigant who is using the courts to seek revenge on political adversaries. he is the mastermind of strategic abuse of the judicial process. team trump argues that prosecutors should be barred from asking about any and all of

those cases regarding the verdict in the civil fraud trial. trump's attorneys arguing that to bring it up would send jurors down a, quote, rabbit hole. that's where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard is back outside the courthouse for us. plus, former acting solicitor general, msnbc legal analyst here, with me at the table once again, "new york times" investigative reporter sue craig is back. she spent the day inside the courthouse. also joining us, the host of "politics nation" here on msnbc and the president of the national action network, the reverend al sharpton here. vaughn hillyard, i start with you. you're at the scene of all the action. bring us up to speed. >> reporter: right. it was a difficult day here particularly the middle of the day just before lunch break when right after those six alternates were officially sworn in and we were able to announce that we had a full jury slot of 18 individuals, there was a man outside of the courthouse just

about 100 yards away there the door who lit himself on fire. it was a couple minutes before the law enforcement was able to put out those flames. i mean, this was a difficult scene here. i want to be very clear about what we know about the man at this time. that the man is somebody from not only internet writings but also pamphlet that he had thrown just before setting himself ablaze that is a deep conspiracy theorist here. this is not directly related to donald trump's trial or even donald trump, but this is a man who is alleged a vast conspiracy that includes the american government, politicians, university, major financial figures. and i won't go further down the rabbit hole, but i can tell you this is not somebody who is a partisan. it apparently seems to be, but somebody who has gone down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories that led them to use this mass media moment for the act that this person engaged in. of course the headline that we're looking at is the fact that we've got a jury and we're looking at potential opening statements this upcoming monday morning. we don't know exactly who the

witnesses are going to be first call. you said about the sandoval hearing, the sandoval hearing where currently these potential cases, past trial determinations from the e. jean carroll suit to the fraud trial, if donald trump were to testify there are current deliberations to the extent which the prosecution could cross examine donald trump about those cases. this will come down to the determination of the judge in the upcoming hours. >> so let me bring you in on bonds reporting. it was not lost i guess on the jurors that this tragic event took place outside. tell us what that was like. >> we're not sure what they know or what they knew when it was going on. but they left and i'm sure they saw the commotion and have seen what happened. it was really striking, though, because we were inside the overflow room, most of the reporters are in overflow room because the actual courtroom is kept empty so the jurors can queue and they're not seen by reporters. we were all there right as it was announced that we had a full complement of jurors and

alternates. that's when news started to spread through the overflow room that this had happened outside. the room was frozen. we weren't allowed to leave. but it all sort of happened at the same time. and i can't imagine given what we saw in the morning session, which i'll talk about, what happened just around, you know, noon, 1:00 is not going to be weighing on some of them over the weekend. what we saw this morning, it was a really -- i have to say it was an emotional morning for some jurors. these are jurors who the judge says to them when they're initially spoken to, if you have any reason why you don't want to serve, whether you don't like trump or you love him and you don't think he can be fair, or you have a vacation coming up or young kids at home, leave now. you don't have to explain it. so these are people that got through that process. and we saw three or four people come in today while they were being questioned who decided that they wanted to leave, that they couldn't do it. one woman got so emotional she started to cry. and she said, i just -- i can't

do it. i'm just -- anxiety was too much. she was crying. and the judge called her up and spoke to her. she was recused. but two people got to that level and said it -- and we lost two jurors earlier in the week where they had agreed to do it and came in and said no. so right now we've got, you know, the full complement, and it's starting on monday. i can't imagine that event outside the courtroom which was just haunting for everybody involved, that it's not going to be weighing on the jurors this weekend. >> talk about the stakes of second piece of reporting over the hearing of what evidence will be permitted. >> it's huge because it's going to determine what he will be able to be asked on cross-examination ultimately. it will determine whether or not he takes the stand. it could also become important on appeal. but it's really at the heart of whether or not he's going to testify if the scope is limited, on what he can be asked, he may

decide to. if it's wide open, i can't imagine he's going to open himself up to that sort of cross-examination. >> and vaughn, when are we expecting decisions or rulings on the evidence from judge marchand? >> reporter: we're expecting here over the course of this afternoon. this process could take as short as an hour here. they're already currently i believe on the fourth previous trial determination that they are going through. of course it's the prosecution that first presents why they believe that they should be able to bring up these determinations, one of the prosecutors for the district attorney's office saying, quote, it's hard to think of something more skbarly in the wheelhouse than a finding by a judge of persistent fraud and illegality. just a moment ago, another quote i'll read you, there's a particular need for the people to assess the defendant's credibility and they intend to make witness credibility the centerpiece for the trial, and that is an argument for permitting this evidence here. essentially making the case that, look, the defense wants to

call into question the credibility of the witnesses. we should use prior trial determinations by juries and judges to be able to, therefore, question the defendant donald trump. >> yeah. and neil is with us. and neil, as i was asking the question, the control room informed me that we just learned that monday morning judge marchand will have the ruling on all of what vaughn and sue are talking about. but this dynamic -- and again, we often cover it in the political context about credibility, particularly of michael cohen, is usually in reaction to a smear from donald trump. in this case in front of a jury, michael cohen is a fact witness, but there are a bunch of other things that we know that alvin bragg did to corroborate those facts. and it seems reasonable when credibility attacks our known tomb -- tool, legal one of

donald trump's, that these rulings and judgments would be part of evidence before a jury. >> that's exactly right. i'm not in the courtroom, unlike suzanne. and i have a good reason. i've been playing the new taylor swift record nonstop. i think my neighbor's going to take out a restraining order against me. but -- but look, i think so this process that we're going through right now that the judge is going to rule on monday is what's known as a sandoval hearing. and it comes from a new york high court decision back in 1974 which isn't unusual. other states don't do this, but basically new york says prosecutors have to explain in detail to the judge what evidence they'd like to put before the jury, and the defendant after the judge rules on what will be the ground rules and what's going to come in and what isn't can decide whether or not to testify. and that's been at issue in the harvey weinstein case.

the prosecutors said they would introduce testimony about weinstein, the judge said i would allow that and led him not to testify in his defense at trial. and it's become something suzanne foreshadowed a moment ago, an appeal issue in the weinstein case. so, too, here. i'm really glad to see the judge taking his time to think through these issues for monday. the prosecutors i think according to the news transcripts have offered three rationales for introducing this evidence. one is repeated fraud and illegality by the defendant, donald trump. that's a tough argument because the fact that you committed one crime doesn't necessarily mean you have propensity to commit another. the second, the one you were seizing on, i think is the strongest about credibility. and in particular, the prosecutor today talked about wanting to introduce evidence in the gag order proceedings in new york because there the judge summoned trump to the stand and found afterward that he had lied

to the court and said his testimony ran hollow and untrue. that credibility determination made by another judge is something that's really central. and as you say, credibility's always important for michael cohen or any fact witness and the like. but it's incredibly important for someone like trump. if he decides to take the stand, the prosecutors, it's totally fair game for them to say hey, you know, why should we believe you this time. so i think that's where it will go. the third rationale not offered directly, but i think is going on in the new york ag's mind, and matthew colangelo comes from that office, they want to remind the judge that this is a guy who'd already violated a gag in order another case and faced severe sanctions. that takes on additional salience because donald trump has been repeatedly and grotesquely violaing the gag order this week and will be the subject tuesday in this case. >> neil, does he or doesn't he

take the stand? >> oh, i -- i suspect the answer to that and we obviously will have to wait and see is donald trump will claim he wants to take the stand, may even say to his lawyers he wants to take the stand. but in the end, the guy's a chicken. and no, i don't think he's taking the stand. and even if he's not a chicken, we know he's someone incapable of telling the truth. and he has some good lawyers in this trial, and i don't think those good lawyers are going to let him stand up and perjure himself, get himself into even more hot water. so i suspect at the end of the day he will not take the stand. and he'll blame is on the case is so weak against me, we've heard that, you know, because it will make the determination of whether to take the stand after the prosecution has provided all of their testimony. so he'll say i'm not going to bother, i was planning on it, but now i won't. and you know, facts will see. >> one thing we got a little bit of a preview of today was

fascinating was once the jurors were in the box and they've answered their questionnaire, each side has 30 minutes to ask questions of the jurors. they do it -- they hand the mic around. and they ask questions. and one of the questions that they -- they had a different spin on each side. the government lawyers asked jurors if they can keep an open mind if someone who has pled guilty in the past, so michael cohen. and then they each answered it. they felt they could. and then the government -- then donald trump's lawyers came up and said -- they asked if somebody has committed perjury and changed their stories multiple times, would you be able to understand that this person is maybe not credible? so they're really already zeroing in on michael cohen. the other thing that was interesting to me, and i was surprised to hear that donald trump's lawyers this early would want to plant this in the mind of now-jurors, but susan nicholas asked -- sorry, susan

hoffinger asked jurors if they would have difficulty with the fact that trump was unfaithful in his marriage. so far donald trump has not admitted to this relationship with stormy daniels, this encounter that he had. so i think there was some surprised people in the room when this happened. we got a real sense today of where they're going and how they're going to be positioning some things for the jury just through those initial questions that were asked. >> neil, what do you make of that line of questioning? >> it's quite remarkable to me because this is in front of the actual jurors. this is not during voir dire for potential jurors but the actual ones. and for a trump lawyer to say that is pretty interesting given the line he's always taken up until this point which is more clinton-esque than anything else. it might be that the lawyer was out over her skis and hadn't asked the defendant about whether she could ask that question. that's certainly plausible. or it might be at the end of the

day they know this testimony is coming out in the trial and they might as well inoculate themselves and get ready right now. >> and i want to bring the rev in on this. david pecker is the witness we don't talk about as much because he hasn't said as much in the public arena. you don't have a relationship with david pecker if you're not hiding something. >> you must look at david pecker because i think that he is a key to if you engaged in this, we're going to pay somebody to hide this story. it already shows the kinds of steps you would take to try and win, and even if it is in -- if not illegal, certainly unethical ways. you're going to actually engage in a deal as donald trump has done, with pecker to say somebody comes to something bad, buy the story and hide it. well, there's not much of a leap to go from there to saying i want to change and falsify some

records. and i think that he can be a very damaging witness and damaging politically for trump when you've got a guy saying i did business with him, to bury things, and that can have some serious indications on what's going on in 2024. this is the kind of guy he is. but i agree with neil. i don't think donald trump would go on that stand if you had the court officers lift him out the chair and put him there because he doesn't want to ever have to answer direct questions. >> right. >> don't forget if they not only would say have you ever committed a fraud or have you done this with banks, they can say but haven't you been found guilty of that? i mean, so you're going to call other jurors liars in new york? how could he get on the stand and admit that? he's going to huff and puff, the lawyers, hold me back, that's all he's going to do. >> he also catching up on some sleep. let me read you today's reporting from sue's colleague,

quote, trump appears to have fallen asleep in court again. it happened several times now. his eyes were closed for extended periods, and his head dropped down twice. the biden campaign put out a statement, verdict's in, sleepy don has a nightmare week. the quote -- the "times," quote, american voters absorbed their first view of a split screen campaign about president biden sprinting across one of the top battleground states and former president trump sitting and appearing to snooze in a new york courtroom. truly an extraordinary split screen. >> well, as one who built his campaign on sleepen joe, the fact -- sleepy joe, the fact that mostly every day this week he cooperate stay awake reminds everybody that he is almost the same age. and clearly you got to realize and people that are watching, you're talking about a man whose whole career and life is on the line. so for him not to be able to stay awoke tells us a lot about

what -- donald trump's not there as an observer, sitting there, you know, supporting a friend and dozes off. this is him, and he can't stay woke. so who's the sleepy old man? >> i got to tell you, that courtroom is cold. it was warm earlier this week, but it is so cold. i'm wear a jacket in there. >> the -- >> should keep him awake. >> right. the argument from this side monday was it was so warm, everybody was tired. >> i hate -- he was more asleep on monday than he has been. >> he was in more like a rem-like sleep. now -- i got to -- nothing against him. i sleep everywhere but here. no one's going anywhere. i want to remind everyone what trump looks like on the stand. it's not pretty. so however this hearing turns out i imagine they're studying this tape i'm going to show you. also ahead we'll talk more about that terrifying scene vaughn and sue were talking about just outside the courthouse and what it means for the start of an ex-american president's first-ever criminal trial. the first time this has happened from a security perspective as

opening statements are set to get underway monday morning. much more to come on this very busy friday afternoon. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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so you can put an end to the itch. get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] yeah, i do. sure. i do. very dishonest. mail-in ballots, very dishonest. >> isn't it true that you yourself have voted by mail? >> i do. i do. i don't know who the woman -- let's see. it's marla. >> you say marla's in this photo? >> that's marla, yeah. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing

to? >> here. >> the person you pointed to was e. jean carroll. they can grab women by the [ bleep ] -- >> if you look over the last million years, i guess that's been largely true. not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star. >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> and now you said before, couple minutes ago, that this was locker room talk. >> locker room talk. >> does that mean you didn't really mean it? >> no, it's locker room talk. i don't know. it's just the way people talk. >> we are back with vaughn, neil, sue, and rev. that's what he's like on the stand under oath. vaughn hillyard, mail-in ballots, quote, i think they're dishonest. mail-in ballots are very dishonest. isn't it true that you vote by mail? yep, i do, i do.

that woman. i don't know her. wait, it's marla? that's my wife. it's e. jean carroll. and then this is just -- epically offensive, which i guess goes to my question for neil, will he or won't he take the stand? is it true that stars can grab women by are the p-word, trump, if you look over the last -- this is my favorite -- million years, it's been largely true. for a million years stars have been able to grab women in the p-word. and you consider yourself to be a star? quote, i think you can say that, yeah. i mean, is there really a chance that that man will take the stand in front of a jury? >> reporter: i contend yes, and that is because after covering donald trump for all of these years, this is a man who has a hard time resisting the microphone or resisting the keyboard and likes to go on the attack. when we're talking about weeks of potential key witnesses from stormy daniels to david pecker taking the stand, you know, this

is a moment where donald trump is going to have to listen to hours of testimony, days of testimony, potentially four days of michael cohen testimony, and despite whatever his legal counsel advises him, go back to the e. jean carroll trial when in the second trial he ended up testifying for just three minutes. there was great frustration because he felt like he had missed the opportunity in the first trial to justly defend himself against the charges from e. jean carroll. that he had a missed opportunity, instead what did you see -- him go back on the attack on campaign stages further defaming her. going on social media further defaming her. for donald trump, the last thing he would want is resisting that. and you know -- and so much a part of this is that opportunity for him in front of this jury to go even potentially muddy the waters or call into question the voracity of these stories. for donald trump, if i may here, if you look at the eras of his life, he has left so many of us to be the tortured poets, to try to make sense as journalists of

who and his relationships and what is real and what is not. and i have little reason to believe that he would not want to take that opportunity to make that just as difficult on these 12 jurors who he has met eye to eye with each and every one and individual who said they don't have a strong opinion of him and a man who has believed that he can woo the american public to vote for him, to think that he could woo 12 individuals sitting 15 feet away from him to vote in his favor inside a courtroom, too. >> vaughn, i think you are right, and i think of all of us you understand -- i'm sorry for you, that you understand what's between his ears better than anybody. i think the difference -- and i remember my own reporting from the mueller time that rudy and -- and all of his lawyers' position was they lay their bodies down between the white house and wherever robert mueller sat before they'd let trump testify on his own behalf if there was a criminal risk. and in this case, there is a

criminal risk. >> reporter: absolutely. but if it means -- potentially being able to win the white house and suspend if he were to be found guilty and suspend any sort of a prison time, i guess the question is what are the stakes even if it means potentially throwing himself in the middle of this and despite whatever his counsel tries to do and convince him on his own behalf, i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. of course his liam team i think as you -- legal team i think as you are much more legally equipped to be making this argument. from a political lens, which i think donald trump so often views even the legal, i think that it's still very much within the realm of possibility he could decide to go that route. >> one other piece of reporting that i remember wishing i didn't possess at the time was his rage at the book drafted by stormy daniels, particularly her descriptions of their intimate moments. i mean, this is -- he doesn't care about being called an incompetent commander in chief, he doesn't care about the

stories about him disparaging the men and women of the military, calling them suckers and losers. he doesn't seem to care about the facts of january 6th coming out. he was reported by two people i was talking to at the time to care very much about the material covered by stormy daniels. these are things that get right up into his stuff. >> reporter: absolutely. get him respond. look, we've got opening statements that i believe just are literally that commercial break, the judge announcing saying, quote, we're going to have opening statements on monday morning. this trial is starting. and donald trump, he has tried to avoid this moment. his legal team has fought on his behalf, his most -- defense lawyers will try to do to avoid these moments, to avoid these circumstances here. and yet even -- just here in the last 30 minutes, his team trying to put forward several pre-motion motions in front of the judge to which the judge snapped back saying, quote, i have handed down decisions,

there's nothing else to be argued. we have have opening arguments on monday. there's a point when you accept my rulings. that was his message to the defense team that is trying to protect their client, donald trump, knowing that these very emotional, difficult circumstances some that go around allegations of him having extramarital affairs with his currents wife melania are going to come to the forefront of the american public's mind and the news cycle over the course of the next month and a half. >> vaughn, have any family members been with donald trump? >> reporter: not at this point in time that i'm aware of. we have not seen any of his sons or melania here. we have not -- we have seen several aides, jason miller was here yesterday. steven chung, his current spokesman, was in the courthouse today. he's been flanked by campaign staff as well as legal team, but not his family. >> neil, an extraordinary moment, we are as vaughn reported now heading toward opening statements. that will be the next time we

see the shot behind vaughn, the next time suzanne craig is down in that overflow room. it will be the next time we understand what if any anxieties, reservations, concerns these 12 jurors and six alternates have. and that will be the first day of perhaps the rest of the donald trump story. >> that's right. i mean, it's a historic moment that's going to occur on monday. the first trial of a former president, and while i always resist quarrelling with vaughn because he's so good and especially here where he's respect toing all these taylor swift -- dropping all these taylor swift references. i do have to say i think on the question of whether donald trump is going to testify, there's a world of difference between donald trump and a microphone out there in the public than donald trump and being in court. because this court you have regular rules of evidence, you can't just, you know, go and meander and -- with all the detours he takes. but most importantly, you're subject to cross-examination

and, of course, under the penalty of perjury. so i suspect vaughn's impulse which is trump can't stop restraining himself is right. he'll tweet, he'll give speeches in front of the courthouse steps and so on. but when it comes to whether he's going to take the stand inside the courtroom, to put it in vaughn terms, if trump does so he will face an loml, loss of his life. i think that's what the lawyers are going to say. >> saw you nodding. >> flow way that i would believe donald trump is going on that stand. he absolutely is narcissistic, he definitely can't resist the microphone. but he also knows the difference between a mic and a courtroom hearing microphone. he knows if he gets on that stand he opens himself up no matter how they rule on the hearing they do today, they may bar some things, there's so much to work with on donald trump. and he knows that.

he knows -- he knows what they don't know that he did. and he is absolutely going to bluff -- >> things they don't know that he did. >> and he will not take that stand, i really -- i do not believe he will do that. and for -- someone said that, you know, because he can handle it and take in the state thing if he wins politically, he can't take care of the state. he can only take care of -- this is a state trial. he can't pardon himself if he wins the election if he's convicted. he can't do anything about the state. good luck to him calling governor hochul asking for a pardon. >> good luck is about all we can say. we have to sneak in a break. on this news that's broken since we've been on the air about judge marchand saying these are the rulings, pretty pointed rebuke but statement to trump's defense team, and announcing oral arguments for monday morning. >> it's game on. i mean, we sure we're working toward this, but it's happening. it's going to be historic. and it's going to be interesting

to see when we go down there what it's going to look like given the events that happened this afternoon. both this terms of security but also if we have any other jurors come in and say maybe hard pass on this. yeah. >> neil, since we've been on the air, i've also learned that trump's lawyers have been arguing for change of venue. those arguments were made. they were given the opportunity to make the arguments, a ruling has come down. it has been denied. trump is without any debate or dispute going into monday kicking and screaming. >> yeah. so venue challenge is always expected in a high-profile case like this, and it's a sure loser here. the problem is trump is saying there's too much publicity around my trial. the problem is the supreme court has said the legal standard is is there some other jurisdiction that would be fair if -- not infected by the publicity. for trump, every jurisdiction, every potential juror is impacted by the publicity, and the solution is what we've seen

over the last week -- extensive voir dire, extensive questioning of the potential jurors which has happened. now the jury's been picked and alternates have been picked. it's no different than the derek chauvin trial for the murder of george floyd. everyone knew about that, and every jurisdiction, chauvin tried to change venue. i got to argue that against him and won. that's pretty much what the law is. that challenge went nowhere for donald trump. if he tries it on,a -- on o'neill it will go nowhere. >> thank you for sticking with us. we are grateful. thank you for starting us off. everyone else sticks around. next, after today's horrifying incident that vaughn and sue have talked about outside the courthouse today, we'll look more deeply at how those in and around the courthouse are working to keep everyone involved in this trial safe and secure. quick break for us. we'll be right back with that. a. s of true deliveries. so i actually got it to tony. woah! and he even sent one back.

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life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. a horrific scene out of the manhattan courthouse of the trial we've been covering all week. just after 1:30 p.m. this afternoon, minutes after the full jury was empaneled, a man set himself on fire. the incident took place in a park reserved for protesters just outside the courthouse. the man was taken to a local hospital by law enforcement where he is alive but currently in critical condition. the new york police department confirms he has engaged in conspiracy theories and three law enforcement sources tell nbc news that he may have posted his

intention to sets himself on fire in advance. there is no apparent or direct connection to precisely what's happening inside the courtroom. the situation today, though, does raise concerns for those in and around the courtroom about their personal safety and the personal safety and security for jury members and court officials and the press. everyone associated with this unprecedented criminal trial of an ex-american president. joining our coverage, former assistants director for counterintelligence at the fbi, frank fiblusi is here. vaughn, sue, and the rev with us. this is obviously a tragic incident for this individual and his family. this is also an incredibly protected space, not just in new york but i can't imagine there's a more protected space anywhere on the planet right now. your thoughts. >> yeah, this is going to be the cause of some reflection. you heard today in the press

conference new york officials saying, look, they will have an after action report and they will look at whether any changes need to be made. here's how i was trained to look at security of events. first you have primary security concerns, in this case it would be let's secure the courthouse. let's make sure this trial happens. secondary concern, let's make sure all the people, the staff, people coming and going, that they're safe and everybody participating in the trial. there's a tertiary concern that has to be considered which is this environment presents an international platform. there are camera crews and reporters from all over the globe in new york for this, and those cameras are trained on that courthouse area. so people even without any cause that's connected to the trial will see that and be attracted to it if they feel they want that international stage. it's for similar reasons why we have an extraordinary amount of security around the super bowl. people say, well, a football game doesn't merit that kind of

security. but an international audience of hundreds of millions of people does present a platform for violence or other things to happen. and there have been incidents at football games. people parachute into the stadium. they do all kinds of things. that has to be considered. we heard the new york officials at the press conference say that this park across from the courthouse was a place for protesters, but also a place they wanted to keep open. it's not secure. you don't have to go through a security check to get into that. and i predict they're going to take a hard look at that. you know, yeah, it's rough to impede new york pedestrian traffic for six weeks. i get that. but you know what's rougher? having an environment where america can't put a former president, a presidential candidate now, on trial in its own justice system. it's iconic. it's very american, and it needs to be treated as such. >> frank, we haven't had a chance to talk to you since our coverage earlier in the week of

at least one juror coming into court after being selected for donald trump's -- to sit on the jury and say she couldn't do it, that people have been able to figure out who she was. fox news had been pretty derogatory about elements of her biography, that she was a nurse, she got her news from google and "the new york times," and that she believed that, quote, no one should be above the law. they singled her out. but it probably isn't the first and only juror who will be singled out. i wonder about what your thoughts are now about keeping this jury safe physically and keeping the integrity of this process. >> yeah. i am deeply concerned about the safety and security of the jurors. and their resilience to last through this environment for this many weeks. i wish we had more alternate jurors. i think we'll go through the alternate jurors.

this is not just another trial, just like the super bowl's not just another game. what does that mean? i wish that the court had thought ahead of time about this environment and about the threatening environment and about fox news, you know, entertainers who decide that they're going to really post the neighborhood, the job, you know, the gender and all of that publicly in a way that says we don't like this jury. there's one social media person out there with about 2.5 million followers who clearly has malintent when he posts about the juror identities. so this should have been considered. this is not another trial, and it's going to be rough going. i'm concerned. >> yeah, i mean, look, have to say, i want you to stick with us because i think that we're all in the political arena not numb but accustomed to the tactics of trump's allies, right, the threats of violence, the

swatting, the intimidation, the vitriol on line, the docksing. those are known knowns. in you're fani willis in the arena any way, shape, or form. that is not the norm if you're simply a juror responding to a summons. i want to press you, frank on, what we should be -- what questions we should be asking as monday's opening arguments are just around the corner. we'll sneak in a quick break first. up next, more reporting from inside today's court pleadings. we'll bring it to you after the break. we'll bring it to you aft break.

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everyone's back with us. frank, i want to press you on this idea that jurors should be different, right, than political actors and trump's political adversaries. but there's already indication in the way his allies are acting on conservative media that they won't be treated differently. >> yeah, we've had similar discussions around election workers, right, and their safety. somebody just raising their hand saying i'll help, i'll do my civic duty. it's similar with jurors. in this case again not being just another jury, i would hope, and we should not be privy to all the security concerns that are in place, i don't want to know, and i don't want it to leak. but this is not just a physical security job. this is also intelligence challenge. and nypd has a very robust intelligence operation. i've worked with them, it's impressive. i hope they're in full gear for this.

what do i mean by that? social media analysis, who's coming, who's going, who's posting, who's pontificating about the jurors and where they are. even counter-survelillance teams, they may want to employ assisting support from the fbi here in the joint terrorism task force in new york because i would suggest counter-surveillance on the jurors. where are they going, getting from where they are to the courthouse and back. it's not just about watching them, it's watching who's watching them. it's important to have the jurors feel secure and convince them that you are secure, as secure as we can make you short of sequestering you. >> yeah. i mean,you. >> some talking about feeling secure is an illusion because you can feel secure and not be safe, or you can feel terror rised and be protected. what does it feel like inside the courtroom? >> very uneasy.

i have to say it's felt uneasy before the situation today. just to give you an idea of get ing into the courthouse, the media and the public kwoou and sometimes that starts overnight. people show up around 6:30 around when i get there. there's different lines depending on the credentials you have. and there's a public line. i think there's an understanding that the public want to witness this. so every day some members of the public are let in along with the media. right now, we're in that overflow room so there's 100 some seats. the back row is reserved for the media. but monday morning there was a fellow there screaming demanding to be in because of his first amendment rights. this went on for two hours. he was let in. and then he the gets sat down. he's agitating and has a tunny outfit on. i was sitting right in front him. then the courtroom was frozen because the jurors are going in.

and he demands to leave and he's saying his rights are being taken away from him because hen can't get out ft courtroom and asking for badge numbers. this goes every day. today there was somebody behind me singing anti-joe biden limericks. you're wondering who these people are. they have gone through two levels of security to get in. we're all swept when we were come in. the front door takes so long pause we come in before the jurors and go up to the floor where the courtroom is. we go through another level of security so they have gone through that. but not all of them appear stable. you're always thinking something can happen with these people sitting right behind you. so i don't know monday now if they are going to be allowed in. i'm wondering what else is going to change monday morning as this has become a real issue after today. that was just a really scary thing that happened right in front of all of us. >> vaughn, what does it feel like out there?

>> reporter: to give everybody an idea of the courthouse district. we're two blocks away from where the civil fraud trial, where that trial took place. this is on 100 center street. below us, donald trump has since left for the day as well as the jurors. but you can see center street was shut down earlier today after the incident outside here. but now the traffic is slowing again. i'm keen to see what sort of precautions are taken here after this event that transpired today. of course, the concern here in new york city specifically is that the jurors have their neighborhoods already identified. this is part of the public process of a trial, but the neighborhoods in new york city are all that wig. they are a couple blocks wide. so we even heard just from one potential juror today, one that broke down crying, another juror, she said, i have really, really bad anxiety. people have found out where i am. i i don't think im i'll be able to be completely here. that was somebody who was not put on to the jury, but that was

just on day one of that person being here. of course, the pressures are going to be so intense on these individuals. what is really not all that big of a community around here. >> rev? >> i think that we must be concerned about the safety of the jury, as well as everyone that's going to be around that building. what about people even being involved in cases on other floors. but i i also think that we need to, as much as i'm a critic of donald trump, we need to have mixed feelings about this. one, i i think that it is sad that we're about to see a former president of the united states go on trial for this. on the other hand, i think we should celebrate he is being held accountable, even though he was president. so there's no reason to rejoice around it. it is a reason to say everyone can be held accountable, but at the same time, i i think we need to look at the fact that people around the world are looking at us like we looked at other

nations and saying, look at. on top of that, you have a guy that we talk about security, he's liable to say anything that could exacerbate the tensions rather than bring it down. i think that is what worries me more than anything is donald trump will incite people, like the people in the courtroom. >> i i just keep thinking if you're watching from around the world, the last time donald trump unleashed his supporters on someone, it was his own vice president and the building wasn't center street. it was the united states capitol. it feels like the world is watching to see if we can do big things. >> if we can get it right, that's what we're all watching. and this is a test. it's a test, so to speak, of the justice system and the rule of law. ask one person and his followers are challenging that system. and that justice.

we have got to get it right. so the test is on. it's happening. it's not a pop quiz. we have had plenty of time to study and do the homework. law enforcement and intelligence officials and court officials and this judge need to get it right. one man only has to get it right once. something can happen, something can be attempted that delays or causes the jury to go away or the alternates to be expended, and we start again. >> you're in the room. i don't mean to put you want on the spot, but what are your feelings? >> i have a heavy heart thinking about this. i just feel at any time when you're down there, something can happen. it was building this week and then it happened. it's just a very uneasy feeling heading into monday. i they do have a lot of security. they have layers and layers of

it. they have got security to get up to the floor. it's not like they are not trying and they are not i paying attention, and they are not there. but you saw what happened today when all of them are there. >> it's incredible. will you be back on monday with us? >> i will. >> tell us what happened every day. that's your chair. frank, vaughn, thank you. susan craig, thank you. a reminder for headlines and analysis of the trial, you can subscribe to the deadline legal newsletter. scan the qr code so you can have it delivered to your inbox. up next for us, our reporter is outside the courthouse making her way to the cam a ra. more on the last hour of the hearing. another quick break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.

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hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. court is adjourned for the day. opening statements will begin on monday. in the words of the judge, this trial is starting. for so long we have used the word erosion to describe donald trump's assault on our institutions and americans' faith in them, but if this week's spectacle showed us anything, it's the term erosion, the flow of water slow and steady, might be be understating the immediate danger. instead we ought to think of the harm done to the structure of our democracy, like a tidal wave with flash flooding possible. try as we with might to board up the windows to keep from being swept away, irreparable damage being done every second. you can see it in the actions and the fear of perspective jurors. some of them so frightened or intimidated from doing their basic civic duty that some were moved to tears in the course for

fear of retaliation. you can see it in the way the disgraced ex-president lies about the case and everyone involved in it. but most of us, ugh you can see it in the way he's conditioned his followers to distrust anything and everything outside the maga bubble. the executive director of protect democracy described it to us like this. >> i think perhaps one of the most corrosive and nefarious dangers we face is the unleashing of termites in the foundations of our system that trump and his allies unleash by sewing doubt in the trust that we have historically had in our institutions, by suggesting that courts can't be trusted, that juries can't be trusted, that every act tort here is acting corruptly and nefariously, it's undermining that trust that's one of the greatest long-term threats to the viability, stability and future success of this country. because a democracy depends on a certain degree of trust in our systems.

our systems has never been perfect, but we have been in the process of improving them. when you get people like trust and his allies sewing such doubt in the system that people say, none of it can be trusted, that's when the whole thing begins to collapse. >> now with a panel of 12 jurors and 6 alternate juror assembled with a purpose and mission of determining trump's criminal fate, we are left to wonder that tidal wave crashing around us what will happen next. it's a question we'll get to this hour with some of our experts and friends. professor of sociology and international affairs kim shovely is back with us. also joining us is legal analyst barbara mcquaid. at the table, former chief of staff myles taylor. but we start with my friend and colleague legal correspondent lisa rubin she's just come out of the courtroom for us. widen the lens. take me through where we are at this hour. we reported on the tragic events

outside. we reported on a little bit of the back and forth between trump's legal team and the prosecutors about the evidence should trump take the stand, but i really want to understand what happened in the final minutes where the judge seemed to lose his patience with trump's lawyers wanting to relitigate every individual motion. take us inside that. >> reporter: that's right. the courtroom that we're in on the 15th floor here is one of the more dreary places i have ever been in a courthouse. it is wood panelled, but it has no art whatsoever. there are more cords than there are anything else. they are stapled to the wall. and the one thing it says in this courtroom clearly is in god we trust. yet, that very pedestrian dreary courtroom is where something extraordinary happened this afternoon. because the judge had to goo through the premotion letters that the defense has buried him under. most of them are about things that have already been

litigated. if not litigated once, they have been litigated twice. in setting foth his rulings on things like whether or not evidence can be procolluded on grounds of presidential immunity, he said, and i'm reading from my notes, you cannot continue to submit premotion letters asking to revisit every ruling. i have entertained your motions in. at some point, you have to accept this court's rulings. we're having opening statements monday. and at some point in that, donald trump started to stand up and he said, sir, we're not finished. sit down. and donald trump was incredibly humbled by that, but also peeved. when he walked out, he usually scans the press in attendance at every hearing i have been through with him. thinks my fourth trump trial, but he looked dead straight ahead. his lips pursed and was shaking his head as he was walking out. just so angry that he has finally met a wall that he can't

tear down. the judge, who as you noted, has been very harsh with the defense but never necessarily in a harsh tone of voice. he's just making clear this is had his courtroom. we're going to have opening statements monday. and when susan said i need to know who our witnesses are going to be, i'm going to ask you to renew that motion from us, we are requesting to know, we don't want to have to delay. there will be no delay. eventually, the judge and the da said we will give you on an attorney's eyes only basis the name of our first and our only witness on monday. commit to you you will not get to cross-examination. if we see that name and any tweets or posts by your client, i assure you that will be the last time we grant you that courtesy. >> it's fascinating that that's where we are. it hasn't started yet, and the restaurants are already giving them attorneys eyes only information because this trial needs to be protected from the defendant himself. take me inside what the final

day of jury selection. they were selecting the final alternates today. >> reporter: today is taylor swift today, but the theme of today if we had had to put it in a song is david bowie and queen's "under pressure." you saw juror upon juror really start to crack and show their anxiety and nervousness at even participating in this proceeding. we had one young woman who said her father was friends with a let's call him a nemesis of the former president. and eventually when she was questioned abouter her ability to stay impartial and weigh the evidence and her feelings about the tomorrower president, burst into tears on voir dire, who is a rather mild mannered person even though she was being forceful in it her words, she's a mild-mannered person. and yet this perspective juror burst into tears and was take ton a side bar to further

explore why she was so nervous and anxious. she was ultimately excused. you also know we had a perspective juror who said to some frustration, i don't know why i keep getting these noticings, but i have committed a crime in another jurisdiction. i served time in another state. i don't think i'm even eligible to serve. and yet i'm here. and started to tear up about the circumstances of that conviction. again, taken privately to a side bar with the parties whereupon the judge inquired with the commissioner of courts and learned while she could be eligible to serve if she had a certificate is of her release, it would depend on the circumstances of each individual case whether she could serve as a juror. at that point, he excused her. she walked out and had the best line of the day. she sang out, good luck, because she knows contactually what those who are actually been seated are in for. you could tell while she was trying to do her civic duty and

comply with the law, she was none too happy about being there or ultimately faced with the prospect of serving on that jury and was relieved to be released. >> under pressure is perfect pap that's what it felt like as you watched owl the tragic events unfold outside the courthouse. take me through what happens monday. >> reporter: on monday, we'll start opening statements 9:30. we'll have 12 jurors in the box. those of us who are on a designated list for press, me included for this network, will be in the courtroom itself. that's different from the last several days of jury selection, where we had to be somewhat insulated from the perspective jurors. and then the prosecution will get their opportunity to go through their theory of this case. you know that in the press we're referring to the case as the hush money case, but they have maintained that's really not what this is about at all. that's only the ain't see dent to the crimes they have charged. 34 fell fli counts of false i if

iing business records to conceal another crime. i should note. the to commit a crime would be one that donald trump would want to commit himself, but the intent to conceal another crime, that can be somebody else's crime. here in had this instance, you know that the district attorney is going to fight for michael ko lent that he pled guilty to a federal election law violation. they are not only going to seek those facts, but the fact of his plea and that in pleading guilty, that was his formal break from donald trump, under whose spell he had fallen for a number of years as the first person donald trump spoke to in the morning, the last person donald trump spoke to at night. when he decided to plead out and confess to his crimes, that was the ultimate break between donald trump and michael cohen, who are now fierce nemeses and will face a showdown. expect the district attorney to preview that for us. in contrast, what you'll hear from the defense is really going

to be not so much a contest of what actually happened, but whether donald trump understood what was going on here and whether in repaying michael cohen, he knew that he was covering up those payments. we'll see what happens on monday when they each flush out their cases for us. >> lisa rubin, thank you so much for your service on behalf of all of your colleagues and our viewers. thank you for joining us. miles, it's extraordinary this is where we are. to lisa's last point there, the facts are established by trump's own justice department. trump's individual one and michael cohen's sentencing memo it feels like some of this is sort of getting back to established facts that have never been in dispute. >> it is getting back to established facts. and in keeping with lisa's lyrical references today, you'd look at this case and say this guy is down bad. there are 34 counts against him.

it would appear that he's guilty as sin, but at the moment, he's out of the slammer and justice doesn't happen in a fortnight. we're going to see starting monday, the tortured poetry of his attorneys. but joking aside, i think the facts have been long established and we can see that in the case. the 34 counts go far beyond just the stormy daniels case. there was a catch and kill conspiracy here timed around the election. this is a much bigger story to be told. and i thus one of the other things that lisa noted that's hanging over this entire trial is ta we know donald trump has always had a dog whistle, but he has a dog whistle packed with dynamite. and every look he makes, those stern gazes she described as he left the courtroom, going person by person, that's not accidental. he's not excited to look each of those people in the eye because he wants to invite them to christmas. people are worried that every move in that courtroom is

designed to potentially intimidate the aspects of the justice system that he believes are conspireing against him. that's really alarming and the judge is going to be walking a difficult tight rope this entire trial. >> just remind people what trump does to people that make him mad. >> let me take one step back. look at that dog whistle when he says there's an invasion, people go shoot up walmarts in texas. when he says there's a great replacement, people go shoot up grocery stores in new york. when he says an election was stolen, they storm the capitol. that was just when he's using his dog whistle and doing a wink, nod that he wants his supporters to do something. when donald trump directly identifies an enemy and directly highlights who is is turned against him, he ruins people's lives in their entirety. what sort of poetic in a about this trial is you will see him sitting across from michael cohen, whether you agree or not with the charges that michael cohen faced ask the time he

served, that's a life that donald trump was hell bent on ruining in anticipation of the fact that this man, his lawyer, one of his most trusted aids, could testify against him and take him down. that's what he does. he won't stop with michael cohen. he's going to make people involved in that trial, whether he's exonerated or not, he's going to make them feel like they will pay for having been involved. that's deeply chilling. >> it seems like there is everything in our system is designed to protect donald trump's rights. he is innocent until proven guilty. and donald trump seems hell bent on proinvestigatoring a system that's structured to protect him. >> yeah, it does feel a little bit distorted, doesn't it? i hear from a lot of people how can there be all these delays, how can he get all these breaks and benefits. and the system is designed to ensure that defendants get a lot of life.

they often say to ensure that it's better than tep people guilty go free than one innocent people be convicted. there's a lot of lights and yet as yo say, we see donald trump attacking that very system that has all of those wfts for hill. you do see repeatedly judges and others bend over backwards despite his attacks on them to protect the system. but it's like what most criminal defense attorneys would tell you. their job is to preserve the institution, to protect the constitution, ask make sure the system works, because it has to work if it's going to work against people who are actually innocent. we'll see where donald trump falls within that spectrum. >> i also think a big part of what he's trying to do is to condition the public. if he can undermine the legitimacy of the court, if he's convicted, you can say i told you all along the court was illegitimate. we should not take any respect

for decisions that had makes. >> i hear some of that too. i make some of those arguments myself. but i think what people ponder isn't that he has an opportunity to appeal every decision and the judge addressed that today. they saud you can't relitigate each and every one of my rulings. the trial starts monday. i think that it's he's in violation of a gag order that exists. it's down the rabbit hole. that the gag order if it applied to me, if we violated it once, we would probably be fined. he's violated it more than a dozen times. i think it's that the tools thats exist in the system, people don't seem willing to use them on him. what do you say about that? >> i think you're right. i think that people are very reluctant. i will say that often times judges are reluctant to sanction defendants no matter who they are because they want to make sure that they are giving a

vigorous defense and tree to do all the things they want to do. but i agree with with you. i think there's a worry here that dth is baiting them. and that they are just giving him what he want thes because the image of donald trump being fined or jailed for contempt for violating the jail order would be one that he uses and likely would be one he uses to attack the credibility of the court and raise the temperature on things. i think the judges want to bring calm to chaos. calm things down, keep the eye on the ball, let's get this trial down and not worry about side shows. i think donald trump is all about disruption and chaos. so creating all of this side show is part of his game plan and so if the judge takes the bait, there's some concern that the judge is take his eye all the the ball, which is getting this case tried. >> i have always thought that the road to hell is paved in what figuring out what trump of is going to do.

80% of his supporters do not believe in the legitimacy of these charges and unlike the mar-a-lago case where trump is running on those facts, when you're president you can do it, and the january 6th case where he's running for president alongside the other insurrectionists, he's not running on his alleged awe fair with stormy daniels. he's not running on the checks he wrote from the oval office. he is not running on these facts because these are not facts he wants out tlp. >> and even worse than that, all he's looking to do is create symbols for more people to buy into the narrative he's created. this narrative that justice is against him. most of his supporters believe there are sol republicans who don't believe it, but maybe would believe it if they saw donald trump in handcuffs because they would say that's just too far. i do think he wants to be seen

as a martyr on the alt-right and trying to bait exactly as barb had said the officials of all of these cases to step over what his supporters would consider a line and create that scenario. i remember debating this during the trump administration with someone who famously said, they hoped that donald trump would be removed from the oval office in a straight jacket, and he would handcuff himself to the resolute desk. you know which senior official i'm referring to. i disagreed at the time that that was going to send the message to the american people that this guy was out of his mind because donald trump knew if they had to pry him out of the white house, it would look to his supporters like he was a martyr and it was an overreach. and i really worry here that that inclination on his part is going to put the judge in an extraordinarily difficult position. he doesn't want to give donald trump that photo-op, but he also has to operate in a manner that's consistent with justice

and protection. this is going to be very difficult to watch. i think we're going to be talking about that aspect of the story every single day of this trial. >> so my study of autocracy sunlights that we're having all these conversations in the wrong frame. what husband supporters, talking about them like they are normal supporters, what they like or don't like. page one of tyranny talks about the power that's given away. so it would appear if you put that lens over this, the power that's being given away is the power to hold donald trump to the same legal standard that any of us would be held to. >> right. i agree completely. i think one of the difficulties here is that many people can see that donald trump is getting away with more in the context of our ordinary criminal justice system than almost any other defendant would be for the reasons that your prior guest suggested. so it doesn't look like he's being held @ same standards, but there's another problem going on here.

just like donald trump did with the election he knew he was going to lose, he say ises ahead to the fact he's going to lose this case. so worse yet, hoost trying to delet matte court it is a are going to convict him while praising the ones that may thot. so i want to contrast what he's saying in this case of what he's ta saving about the judge in florida, who made many rulings in husband favor and doesn't hesitate to praise her. what he's doing is not just delegit mating the justice system, but he's doing it selectively. that every judge is on the red team or blue team. therefore, you can only trust the red team judges and not the blue team judges. that's kind of just it serves to

make the justice system look like ordinary politics. again, one of the things they do is collapse law into poitics. there's no place where the rules of law and where the facts presented are the determinative outcomes in a political matter, everything gets politicized. so that's what we're seeing here that's very dangerous for our future. even if he's convicted in this case, and even if he loses the election because this is the kind of stain that doesn't go away with just one trial. >> it also has a long -- there's a real long arc to this. when he became president, he first alarmed general kellie, when he constantly talked about my generals, my generals. they weren't the country's military leaders. they were my generals. i remember him saying in an interview with "the new york times" he wanted his bobby

kennedy, his eric holder, because he viewed them as being on the team of the presidents they served, which is ridiculous. he talks about my blacks at his rallies, an incredibly derogatory thing to say about his african-american supporters. but everything is the possessive. that seems to come straight out of an aud democrat's handbook. >> they pass through them on the basis of free and fair elections so people can throw the buns out when they want to. the thing about autocracy is the office comes to be identified with the person. so the person claims to own the office, claims to be above the constitution, claims to be the final word in the system so that everyone pledges loyalty and not to the constitutional framework. so we're seeing that process advanced in the way that trump talks about all of the

institutions, the military really pushed back on that. the judiciary is trying to push back, but the concern here is that it begins to look like everybody is on one political team or another. it's crucial that dues process, the facts and the law really come forward. and i think i'm kind of relieved that we're actually getting to a trial. we're getting to a trial in front of ab experienced judge who has shown he's not going to take this nonsense of trying to inflect every single legal order with politics. i think once we get to the presentation of evidence, it might get a bit better. i hope people begin to realize that inside a courtroom is not a space for politics. >> thank you all so much for starting us off. we'll continue monitoring the breaking news out of new york city in and around that courtroom.

we'll be joined by former prosecutor with experienced prosecuting organized crimes cases and the similarities between the trump trial so far and cases brought against the mob. and later how far the republican party has fallen with its current presidential nominee standing criminal trial and facing three more indictments. the question is, when did character die? when did that stop mattering? "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues aft. don't go anywhere. u surrounded. just gonna stand there? or are you gonna take your lawn back! we are gonna take it back. with scotts turf builder triple action! it gets three jobs done at once - kills weeds. prevents crabgrass. and keeps your lawn growing strong. glorious! - agggghhhhhh! - aaagghhhh. no no no. download the my lawn app today for lawn care tips and customized plans. feed your lawn. feed it. when dry eye symptoms keep... coming... back... inflammation might be to blame. over-the-counter eye drops can provide temporary relief. xiidra can provide lasting relief.

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decade. >> that is michael cohen. he's already served a prison sentence for his involvement in the hush money payments made to stormy daniels. that trial has had the hallmarks and challenges of trying to prosecute one. joining us at the table is former prosecutor, former criminal division deputy chief christy greenberg. she was also at the courthouse today. miles is is still with us. we're peppering you with questions in the break. let's start with what you were talking about the jury. >> so i think day up with there were a few questionable jurors. one of them has been excused because they found out he had a prior arrest. some of them there are a few red flags. someone who follows the news and says they follow lawsuits and is up-to-date on things but says they have no opinion about trump's character, that just

strikes me as a little farfetched. most people who follow this have an opinion about his character. it would strike me as more believable if they have an opinion but i can set it to the side. i can be impartial and focus on the the facts and the law. and when those people were trying to try too hard to seem neutral, those jurors seemed like there were red flags. a lot of those jurors were excused and not picked, put there are a few on the jury. that interesting to watch as we proceed. >> what do you make of the anxiety that's been described by journalists in the courtroom. the tear, the emotion, the fear. >> so the jury number two, the nurse, who found herself being outed on national tv,s that was just heartbreaking. the fact that she would have been a good juror. she was ready to be fair and impartial. because she was outed, now she finds an inflood of messages. she's scared. she's criticized as prejudging

how she would vote before anything has even started and evidence has been presented. so that's got to be a difficult situation for somebody who is not in this arena at all. just there to do their civic duty. it's really unfortunate and needs to stop. >> and this is before the jury was selected, before they had seen any evidence, before anyone had glared at them, before they made any reactions. what do you do to protect this jury in the coming days? >> one thing they changed from then to now, it was striking that all of the jurors you could identify who they were, they were outside holding their juror slips. they were waiting for at least 30 minutes outside right across from where all of these protests were going on. and right across from the press line, so people were interviewing them as the press has want wanted to do. people are talking to hemp. you could have taken photos. that needs to stop.

it seems like it has. they are no longer waiting out there. they are no longer right near the protests. that kind of intimidation seems to have been addressed. going forward, information about them has already been public, but making sure people aren't taking photos, making sure they are in a side entrance, making sure they have contacts in law enforcement who they could speak to if there was any intimidation, those are the the things i would expect to be in place when we get started on monday. >> what do you do to protect people who may not be followed home and threated at knife point, but who feel the climate and afraid. >> i think it's really hard. i think a lot of those jurors going into this knew what that climate was, had a sense of it. and still didn't take themselves out of it. most of the jurors at each group of 96, you had roughly 50 or so saying i can't be fair and impartial. can't do this for whatever

reason. they got to leave. those were really spooked by the climate. probably already selected themselves off. the people who stayed are the people who have some understanding of the risk and are choosing to do their civic duty. we should applaud them for doing it. >> what do you make of what is about to hop happen. the judge basically saying to trump's legal team, enough, we can't relitigate every individual pretrial motion. we start monday. >> i think we will start monday i think it will be a momentous ta. i will be camped out in line for hours waiting to get in. i think in terms of the trial itself, it's going to be routine. you're going to hear opening arguments from both sides. the witnesses will be called. the jury will be there to take notes and understand what's going on. i do think this judge is really running a tight ship. so the actual trial itself is

not going to be having the kind of fireworks that maybe we would expect given kind of what has led up to now. >> what do you think that does to someone like trump who can't stand not producing his own show? >> he's going to find a way. you already saw it with the trip to the bodega that he made the other day. his team is sitting down and thinking about what can we do while we're in the air, what can we do while in the courtroom, from a legal standpoint rs, they are trying to stick as much paper against the wall as humanly possible. even it buy him another hour of freedom, they want that hour. they think that hour is going to benefit them and the campaign in the eyes of his supporter. they will try everything. so it could be a look trump gives to a person, a comment he makes the way he was described leaving the courtroom, they are going to look for every single opportunity to politicize this and make a spectacle. and going back to the jury, we're talking so much about how this is unprecedented to have a

former president on criminal trial. but i have to say those 12 people are in an unprecedented position. never in the history of this country have we had people sit in the jury box in this type of situation and also in an environment with this kind of pressure. i'll take your point that the folks that are in the jury box are largely people who went in clear eyed, but even if they had gone in clear eyed, they don't know what to expect, because we have never had a political climate. just like a couple years ago when the whistleblower backed by the full force of the federal government and everything that fwoez into protecting intelligence community members was maliciously outed by people in ret ri butted fashion. i thus they are going to need to take extraordinary measures in this case. >> do you think they are looking at how dwrou protect juror who is are prosecuting mob figures? >> right now, this jury is anonymous, so that's one step. but it wasn't completely

anonymous because we got information that was public, which didn't need to be about their employers, which makes it much easier to identify who they are. but they could take the next step, which sequestering this jury and ensuring that they are in a safe location where people can't necessarily get to them during the duration of the trial. i think if trump keeps making statements about these jurors, if there's threats and intimidation, i can see this judge taking that step. >> extraordinary. thank you for being here. we'll continue to call on you. we're going to fit in a quick break. we'll be right back. to fit in a break. we'll be right back.

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if these radical vicious raist prosecutors do anything wrong or illegal, i hope we are going to have this country the biggest protest we have ever had in washington, d.c., in new york, in atlanta, and elsewhere because our country and our elections are corrupt. >> this is who he is. that was him, the defendant, also the disgraced ex-president, that was him in 2022. joining our conversation, former congressman and political analyst david jolly. with me at the table is host of the fast politics podcast molly john fast is back. also the founder of america, the host of the podcast is here.

miles is still here as well. david jolly, your thoughts on this extraordinary week in american civic, political life. >> it is historic. and we are covering it as such. at its base, i actually think this is fairly simple pup i think one of the things that's been trump's downfall has been his narcissism and vanity. and this case is going to exploed and remind voters had what they don't like about donald trump. the reality is these are criminal charges. the likelihood that he ends up behind bars still remains pretty small. even if he's convicted, that did you want mean he goes to prison. so in this case, unlike georgia, unlike the jack smith cases, donald trump could frankly just cooperate with this case and not worry about its impact. instead, he's exploding his raw personality in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom. those five to 6% of the voters

that actually will decide this election in six or seven state, those are the voter who is look at that and say this is why can't vote for this guy those are the the voter who is said i'm going to coalesce with democrats in 18 and 20 and 22. they are watching this and watching this behavior and they are being reminded why they are probably going to vote for joe biden in november. donald trum i said this every d. he's running on the facts of the mar-a-lago case and with the insurrectionists. he's not running on these facts. he's running from these facts. >> and he should. david is right. this is negatively impacting him, especially with independent americans. i talked to those folks that cover this. i see that couple percentage points in key swing states starting to move away from him, week by week. because he looks diminished. he looks weak and con strand. he wants to be mr. strong guy and getting pushed around by a

judge. it's going to wear on his persona. her margin of error is low. but it's also just a giant embarrassing moment for america. i think about the fact that my kids are watching this and seeing a former president displaying this kind of behavior and just being put through this. this is a low moment for our country. we have to remember that. he's dragged our entire country and our entire society through this. that's going to take us a long time to recover from. >> and it isn't the extramarital sex with stormy daniels or karen mcgoogle. it isn't just catching and killing their stories. it make it is sound pretty misogynistic and brutal and threatening it's the cheating. it's catching and killing their stories and paying for their silence ahead of the 2016 election because the access hol holly wood tape has just come out and been the first thing that scared trump politically in that campaign. >> the idea that a presidential candidate sitting for a criminal trial would not hurt him is so -- i feel like the pundit

industrial complex got so beyond its scheme, it might help him. >> let's stop right there. i have never bought that. and i found it so disorienting that i sat through a bunch of trump speeches. he does deal with mar-a-lago. he says the pra. it's his defense for the facts in the mar-a-lago case. in the unsur recollection, his events start now with this whacky song recorded in prison by. he's wrapped up in the crimes he allegedly committed in mar-a-lago and on january 6th. he wants nothing to do with these facts. >> and he's also running on i'm not a criminal, but i did crimes, but they are not crime when is you're president. i just don't see how midterm voters want midterm voters. he's sitting here in a

courthouse. he's maybe dozing off, maybe not, he looks tired, he's bored, he's complaining it's cold. >> he's fallen asleep twice. >> and the reality is this is not a good look for a presidential candidate. there's a reason people don't go through criminal trials. there's a reason they avoid can scandals. voters don't like it. i think we as pundits have cooked ourselves into such a frenzy that the reality is this is a bad look. >> independents pay a lot of attention to the news. they make up their mind at the end. they are very sensitive to things that consume an entire news cycle for an extended period of time. those things still hold true. >> yes, and they disrupt the practical working of our government. how much more could we be getting done on ukraine and israel and the border and any other number of things if the whole country wasn't swamped up in this. there's a practical need to have

politicians that can get things done. he doesn't look like a person that's going to be able to get things done if you're explaining, you're losing. i think over time he's losing ground. compared that to biden, he's able to make this work on ukraine. he's going get support to israel. the kennedys are endorsing him. pop he's had a good week and trump has had a pretty bad one. >> biden has really been able to roll up and break thus on the idea that he was willing to solve border. he took all the republican ideas, put it in an immigration bill he was willing to sign. you see more and more evidence that got through from his state of the union speech and sol of the follow on. >> the contrast between the strategies of joe biden and donald trump are very important here. the basics of election science are this. you ramp up intensity or persuasion. what donald trump is doing with his grievance screaming and yelling is he's ramping up the intensity of the voters he

already has. but when he behaves like that, he is not persuading those persuadable voter who is are wondering, who do i vote for? am i good with the direction joe biden is taking this or do i want to go back to donald trump. those voters aren't moved, not at all. they are moved by an effective president who says i am working to move the economy for all people. access to health care, to education, to move the economy past this inflation challenge we have. they see joe biden doing that. they say, okay, i'm persuaded to pull the lever for democrats in november. >> this is also the piece where it doesn't hurt joe biden he's in everyone's face and news cycle. the people with like maybe trump, the people see they can live without him and joe biden, it they were sort of reluctant biden voters, part of that coalition included people exhausted by trump, those people aren't going to look at the

trump story and i miss that. no one is going anywhere. we'll remember a time long, long, long ago before trump when the republican party. ed us to believe it cared very much about the character of people in the party. the party's presidential nominee literally on trial for paying hush money to a porn star to cover up an affair that could have cost him the 2016 presidential election. we'll have that conversation, next. we'll have that conversation, next with schwab investing themes™, it's easy to invest in ideas you believe in. spot a trend in electric vehicles? have a passion for online gaming?

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putin is such this enemy. he isn't doing anything. he just wants back what is his. >> he invaded ukraine. >> that is -- >> killing thousands of people. >> that is fine. that is fine with me. >> as a veteran yourself, does it concern you at all that russian aggression could go beyond ukraine. >> this administration is trying to start a war with russia. russia is not our enemy. >> a few individuals enthusiastic about putin and donald trump. and that is the impact. we've covered it for nine years. that is what they believe. the reality of the impact of the lies told by donald trump, the autocratic impulses show cased by trump, the republican party nominee in 2024 and also a four timed indicted and now dangerous and disgraced ex-american president. most people in the past in the republican party wouldn't have tolerated him as a candidate once let alone three times n. a

new book, jean becker, the former chief of staff to george h.w. bush, reminds us that the republican party was very different and led by men and women of great character that valued leadership. and she learned how to thick through an issue but be decisive and how to load with integrity and how to be a better person. book was just called character matters, lessons on life and leadership from george h.w. bush and includes a forward by james baker who calls bush, quote, a wise and honorable gentleman, elected to safely guide us through one of the most dramatic and dangerous periods to ever confront our great nation. joining us now, the author of "character matters", long time chief of staff to george h.w. bush, my friend jean becker. hi there, jean. how are you doing? >> it is so great to see you, nicolle. i wish you weren't 2,000 miles

away. >> i'm fwlad you're not here. the city is nutty this week. if you know what i mean. jean, i remember -- i remember kennebunkport were the pictures of the leaders, a lot of the pictures on wall, you know what i'm talking about. >> yes. >> and i keep thinking about all of the alliances and what the alliances meant to george h.w. bush and bush after 9/11, and we're the only country in nato that asked nato to come to our country and invoked article 5. what does it feel like for you to see an entire party abandon those principles? >> you know, i'm going to disappoint you, nicolle, i'm going to try not to talk politics. i'm sort of glad i'm you're last guest for the week because i'm going to do something a little shocking. i'm going to try to be positive. and one of the reasons i wrote this book, i have a lot of

opinions, all of which i would love to share with you, we need to have a drink, but i wrote the book for this reason. i wanted to remind people, particularly to help young people know, it used no not always be this way. there-s was a time in our country, president bush called it a kindler and gentler nation and i was intrigued by paul in the last segment who worries about his kids watching the news today and this is the example they see. well i wrote character matters to show, paul, buy this book for your children, paul. i want wan example of what leadership is. and what leadership should be and can be and i don't want just republicans to read it, i want democrats and independents, i want everybody to read this book. one of my favorite yotes in the book is former prime minister

john major of great britain who wrote that working with george herbert walker bush was like taking a master class in leadership. and there is just a lot to learn from him. and so, that is everyone's assignment. read the book. and then you could figure out how you feel about what is doing on today. it is not right. it shouldn't be this way. >> when you think about him and you think about his private relationships, across -- with other world leaders, with people in other political parties, what do you think the importance was of those? >> he got a lot done because he was willing to reach across the aisle, the 1990 budget deal is a great example of that. senator rob portman and rob mcclure write about that very eloquently in this book. what he was also famous for calling world leaders and some

heads of state who weren't exactly world leaders every single day. he would just call and check in. so, when sudden an hussein invades kuwait and he puts together a coalition of countries, a lot, it wasn't that hard because they all trusted him. vice president cheney writes the main essay about desert storm in this book and he flew to saudi arabia as secretary of defense to visit with the king, to see if they could send american troops there. and at the end of the conversation, this is what vice president cheney puts in the book, the king looked at him and said, yes. i trust george bush. so, yes. those relationships brought the cold war to an end. >> through friendships and they were even deeper in private than what people saw in public. but they did yield a lot of stability and they brought us

great people like yourself, great public servants. jean becker, thank you for the book. we'll do our homework because you told us to. >> thank you, nicolle, take me out for a drink and we'll talk more. >> i'm on a plane. i'm coming. we're drinking. >> thank you for having me. >> the book is called character matters, and other life lessons of george h.w. bush. my thanks to everyone. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. e. a quick break for us we'll be right back. but at what cost? turn shipping to your advantage. with low cost ground shipping from the united states postal service. ♪♪ [stomach growling] it's nothing... sounds like something. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion♪ ♪upset stomach, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. my grandfather's run meyer the hatter

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to today's fast-food workers. californians have led the way. now, $20/hour is here. thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. what a week it has been. we want to thank you for letting us into your home during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. thanks so much. welcome to the beat, i'm ari melber. the judge who is presiding over donald trump's criminal trial, said what you see on this