to the the election that might have issues with ballots. it's not about what side you're on. it's about engaging with this really important process. >> dasha, thank you so much. that sweet story with those great people working hard in pennsylvania. that's going to do it part us today. i appreciate you joining us. i'll be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern right here on msnbc. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, the challenges of holding accountable a criminal defendant dead set on using whatever tools he has at his disposal to blow past the limits of the law by any means possible burst into public view today on day three of the people of the state of

new york vermont donald trump. the trial now contending with a tactic trump ask his allies deployed over and over and over again really ever since prosecutors began investigate donald trump. that's through relentless, unceasing attacks, delegitimizing the justice system, finding any reason or any even totally disconnected from issues at hand using anything to claim that somehow she said friends have is already inquired about whether she's a juror. the juror headed that given these outside influences, she was concerned about her ability to be fair and impartial. all this is happening a little more than 12 hours after fox news went through the dethe tails of the seven-seated jurors. here's what one said about the juror excused today. >> she gets her news from "the

new york times" google and cnn. she said two things that really stuck out, one, quote, i don't really have an opinion of trump. and quote, no one is above the law. i'm not so sure about juror number two. >> only on earth two is being above the law to being a potential juror for donald trump. that's crazy. this is where we are. the ex-president also posted a quote from that guy. calling jurors, undercover liberal activists. this a blatant but strategic lie. that trend of this program says is also a clear violation of the gag order, which expressly prohibits, quote, making or directing others to make public statements about any perspective juror or any juror in this criminal proceeding. now donald trump's attack on the jury pool didn't go unnoticed by the district attorney either. prosecutors claim that trump has

violated the gag order seven times since monday. prosecutors saying, it's ridiculous and it has to stop. adding that the, quote from waters is the most disturbing post in light of what just happened this morning referring to the juror coming in and asking to be excused. the chaos at trial today and the ongoing fight over trump's are the risk is nothing new. the country has been grapping with the dangers posed by rhetoric from donald trump and his allies ever since the ex-president descended the etc. ka later. the difference now, of course, is that it threatens to kick sand or something worse into the gears of trump's first ever criminal trial. a scholar tweeted, this is what authoritarians to. violence against anyone seen as having the power to harm the cult leader. this is designed to make it very difficult to find jurors. and let's proceed with the trial. it's a form of sabotage of our democratic justice system. it's also where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends.

von hilliard is outside of the courthouse for us today. with us at the table is susan craig is here. she spent today inside the courthouse. plus senior executive editor at bloomberg opinion tim o'brien is here. also joining us former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weisman. there's so much happening. i don't know where to start. i'm going to go in order. von hilliard, tell me what you're seeing. >> reporter: yesterday you and i were having that discussion with the crew about the ecosystem we live in. it's not even necessarily just the pressures that could come from a criminal defendant like donald trump. when you're dealing with such national attentions, such community attention on trial like this, with such high political stakes six months out from a general election, there are bound to be individuals who will be juror who is have family friends fellow church members

who have strong opinions on whether donald trump is guilty or not. and this is the first juror who made the call to the court last night after hearing from friends, families and colleagues asking if she was a juror on the trump trial and saying that she didn't know this morning whether she could be impartial because of the pressures. so now this process here continues. another part of this from the last half hour, walking through some of the questioning from the prosecutors and the defense team of this current batch of 18 jurors who are facing deeper line of questioning here, just how small new york city for all the millions of folks here, just how small the community really is here. you're having one person who is so very knowledgeable of mark pom rands's book. another who works for hakeem jeffries. another saw donald trump shopping back in the day. you have another guy who says he wanted to thank donald trump for renovating the hockey rink in

central park. this is the defining juror they are currently in realtime discussing whether to strike from the jury. this particular juror says that about 15 years ago, get this, she stayed overnight with her husband at susan nicholas' home. that's one of donald trump's defense lawyers. so they are currently having a discussion over whether she can continue on and be seated as a juror. it's wild when you're going into just the stories of these individuals and who maybe the ones to determine whether donald trump is guilty or not. >> andrew weisman, jump in and help me understand whether the violation of the gag order is the actual retweeting of waters' attack on the juror, or if it is just tell me what the actual technical violation of the gag order is. >> so it is actually not a retweet. it was typed in. so it wasn't just -- although that would count. it's actually typing in the

statement and then you remember that you read the actual language from the gag order, which is making or directing someone else to make any public statement. whether truthful or not truthful, the point being you cannot make any public statement about a juror or perspective juror. and so that is the problem here is that the statement was about jurors who are lying. leave the lying out. that is sort of oil to make it even worse. extra wood on the fire, whatever the analogy is. you weren't supposed to make any statements about the jurors. and it had the effect whether intended or not, and there obviously is real concern here that these kinds of statements are a way or essentially donald

trump or his allies or both to fashion the makeup of the jury to go after those juror who is they think maybe less favorable to them. so it is a form of jury tampering in and of itself if it is being done for that purpose, but it's also a violation of the gag order. to my mind, i know you have said this repeatedly, but this is one where everyone has to steal themselves to the consequences of this and rise to the occasion. you maybe thinking you're making a martyr of him, but you have to treat him the way you would anyone else. if i was back doing mob cases, there would be the kind of thing that would lead to an immediate hearing. we certainly would allow the defendant to make any and all arguments about why this isn't a violation, why it's not

intentional, whatever argument they want to make, but if a decision is that this is a violation, you have to take immediate action not only because they violated a order, but because of the effect on the composition of the jury. this is not what you're entitled to do. you have challenges, two ways to challenge within the law, the colt position of of the jury. public harassment of jurors is impermissible. finally to your point about how long we have been continuing to do this, i remember very well and it's in the mueller report, donald trump tweeting about the jury and about paul manafort during deliberations of the paul manafort criminal trial. and that was listed as a form. that was one of the ten grounds of potential obstruction of justice in volume two of the mueller report, because why on god's green earth would the

current president be weighing in about paul manafort and how wonderful he is at the moment of the jury deliberations in a criminal case. so he clearly has indicated his propensity to do this. his willingness to do this, a history of doing it and i do agree that the district attorney is correct to say that this is something we're hearing does need to happen on this as soon as possible. >> let me just press you a little bit. by saying people shouldn't be worried about making him a martyr, are you saying he should be imprisoned if he's viewed after he's had a chance to defend his conduct as violating the gag order. >> i do think that if the judge finds that this this is the notes first time. this is the th incidents of this. the judge short of prison, you

couldn't say for some of the violations but we know increased fines do not work. it's two sets of fines. so he's already had not only one, but two bites of the apple. he's been given these warnings, so i do think that when you get to particularly juror, and effectiveness, that the prospect of some form of jail time, even if it's a timeout in a holding cell, it's something that i think in very short order is going to need to happen. but again, just to be clear, after the defense has been given ab opportunity to present any explanation as to what's going on. >> and let me just -- i ask because trump has shown us he's incapable of change. he had his strikes inside the courthouse. he never planned for that to be the only way to eliminate jurors. that's never the plan.

sheamus and ruby freeman aren't ever found to have done anything that rudy giuliani said they did. they were passing junctioner mints. but they were harassed intimidated, they always use the tool book to intimidate and shape events. and i have to say and this won't feel good, but it works. and they did this and it wored. she's not on the jury anymore. it's already to stop trump from manufacturing the jury that he wants. >> it's not too late, but if i were the judge in this case, i do think that it's one where you obviously have to republic the rule of law and due process. you don't stoop to the level of that's not the appropriate

response, but you cannot sit there and say i'm going to toll late this. you know who is entitled to have the rule of law? the people of the state of new york on whose behalf this case has been brought, the district attorney is entitled to the rule of law and a fair trial. the jurors who are feeling intimidation are entitled to just like your analogy to sheamus and ruby free hanna, they are entitled to serve on a jury without the fear. and i do think by the way that this is an area of my experience in the courtroom and dealing with judges is if there's a red line for judges, it is going to be the jurors. the need to keep them safe and secure so it will be very interesting to see how the judge reacts to this. but i do think that the road to

hell in this country is going to be thinking that you should not apply the exact same rules to dth as you would to any other defendant. i think that is not doing anyone any favors by doing that. it's something he's goating the judge to do and maybe something for political reasons that he wants to have happen. that's irrelevant. the effect is the thing that has to be dealt with right now. and i think that this is something with all eyes are really on the judge buzz it's going to set the tone for how this trial goes. it's clear that donald trump is testing that right now. >> sue craig, you were in and around the courthouse, the judge, the defendant, the jurors and is it known?

tell me what the awareness is. it was getting information from google and he said i don't think so. so what are they looking for? >> i think most of the jurors responded in that way. i think that the issue that i saw today and the judge took some measures whether it's enough, we don't know. but the issue is they have jurors getting into the box. we can hear their answers and donald trump and the government know who their names are. ask they are asked some questions. we can identify some of them. that was the problem. especially where they work.

and the woman who came in today was concerned because friends had had called her are you on the jury. the number four juror, he was recused. there was some issues brought up about his integrity. we don't know why he was recused ultimately because it happened out of your shot of the media, but he said as well he was concerned he could be identified. and they have taken some measures. you no longer have somebody identifying their employer now. the judge stopped that. and we were also told that we couldn't say or write anything that wasn't read into the record. so we can say we know they are a lawyer, but we can't say they were wearing a new york rangers had and had a jean jacket on. so they are trying to take some measures, but whether or not it's enough, i don't know. somebody left on tuesday and came back on thursday and was having second thoughts about this. we went from seven to five. tomorrow we could again redacttive again.

the court was frozen because there were jurors in the hallway. they are taking a lot of precautions, but still saw jurors this morning coming in and there's a lot going on. they are trying to get the media in. they are trying to get hundreds of jurors into the building. it's very chaotic down there. things happen. mistakes happen. the staff are trying to do their best job. occasionally people like me end up on the floor with the jurors. >> the difference would be that you didn't go on tv and identify them and disqualify them. >> but some people might and that's the concern. i'm not going to do that, but the concern is there might not be honest brokers that get in this situation. >> the friends is and family saying was that oncology you nurse? i agree that it could make you

wonder whether you can be objective because you flush out what your friends and family think of him, but there's also this fear. let me show you what michael cohen said over the weekend. >> how are you feeling? >> stressed and nervous. there's a swath of the american populous that are so knee deep into the cult of donald trump, the attacks are relentless because that's what he does. he attacks the judge, he attacks the judge's daughter, he attacks witnesses, he attacks anyone and everyone. again, thinking that this is a positive strategy, it doesn't work. i'm concerned. and a little apprehensive. >> you and i both know he's never at a loss for words. and i'm sure his family is nervous too michael cohen is in a slightly different position.

he's a star witness to the facts and the actual hush money works and how donald trump paid him. >> but under subpoena as well, he voluntaryly be there. >> and there has to be -- i want to press into this, but how much can you sequester a juror and their family? >> one thing that is going on in the courtroom and donald trump got rocked for it from the judge, one juror came in and he was making gestures towards this woman. he got yelled at by the judge for it. he's trying everything. he's going as far as he can. i think the judge is trying not to sanction him at this point. this is the tug of war going on and n that courtroom right now. as we're seating more jurors right now, i can see more coming in and having second thoughts.

who knows what we're not seeing from that overflow. there are very few people in the courtroom right now. it's full of jurors and a few pool reporters. there's a the lot that we may not be catching that's going on. >> it's amazing. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, someone that can speak to how donald trump is continuing to use the rule of law to delegitimize the democratic institutions and put people in danger, plus the challenge of not just keeping a jury pool safe, but how do you navigate the kind of psychological warfare the ex-president and allies engage in brazenly without any fear at this point of consequences. usually there are many. we'll talk about that next. and later in the broadcast, donald trump's accomplices in the gop. even those who called him out for who he is, for choosing allegiance to one man over the country. wait until you hear how those on the right were justifying their support for the man currently seated at a defense table for just the first of his many criminal trials. all those stories and more when

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so since we have been on the air, there's a quick update from the courtroom. two new jurors have just been seated bring the total number back to seven after two were dismissed earlier today. sue, tim ask andrew all here. tim, your know these tactics. this is a slightly different setting, this first criminal trial. >> it's a slightly different setting, but he's up to the same tricks. it was interesting to see michael cohen say he's worried about his own well being.

he told me two or three months ago that trump used to direct him to call up reporters who he suspected of writing unfavorable story asks tell them you better watch out or we'll do what we did to tim o'brien. he sued me unsuccessfully. the reason michael was hired, he was hired to be an enforcer. he wasn't hired to do contract law. and the cultures was built on intimidation and threats and media. it wasn't built on brilliant business decisions. and when andrew mentioned about the similarities here in mob trials that mobsters being prosecuted, trump told me his model for how to behave in court was gadi. the thing he really respected was he never wept and he sat there in court and looked at the jurors and he looked at the

judge with a big fu on his face. and he admired that deeply. he's already in recent days and recent re petedly throughout his career compared himself favorably to al capone, which would be bonkers except for the fact he says something bonkers every day. but he says this as a signal of what a bad actor is. least proud of being a bad actor. the order to saw shoe cause that the the prosecutors are adding to daily of the threats he's making to members of court, the judge, et cetera, i really do hope when they review this next week, that he brings the full weight of the law to bear on trump precise isly because he's an ex-president and not actually go lightly because he's ab ex-president, but he's even more incumbent on this court to hold trump accountable. i don't think fines are going to do it. i thus he needs to sit in a cell

and ponder the consequences of trying to undermine the rule of law, while also intimidating all of these average citizens, who are part of this process. there's been this argument that he couldn't get a fair trial in new york because they don't like donald trump. there's nowhere in the world that he is not known now. there's certainly no other city in the u.s. where we could have a trial and the jurors would know something about him. so the idea of knowing it's disqualifying is absurd. and i think his defense team knows this. you get these very good glimmers of understanding from the jurors when they are being interviewed exactly what they know. one of the jurors today compared trump was of italian descent. which is just accurate. more accurate comparison, but you get somewhere.

and i think the sl has to stand up to this and he has to be held accountable. >> are you confident he will be? >> i'm hopeful he will be. i think confidence in the era we're in now, he gets a formidable array of judicial and legal breaks that other people don't get. so. >> i think he's because he's a former president. i do think that's the animating thing. >> i think it's because people are afraid of the consequences. they are afraid he will common a mob. he already did that. >> it's definitely true. >> everything that people are afraid of, whether they will say it or not, i have been in those rooms in the executive branch of government. i don't know the state level, they are a conservative. hay don't want to take big swings or seem political.

he has his allies smearing juror who is have been seated. >> and he should be put in a cell for that. he should be put in a cell and contemplate his behavior. i agree that people's fear of intimidation or physical harm is a key factor here. but i don't think the members of of supreme court are worried about physical intimidation, t even at that level, he's getting judicial accommodations that other people don't get. they are taking their time deciding the immunity issue and i don't think they are taking their time simply because they might beat them up. they are taking their time because they place him inside the executive branch of the united states government and think he deserves special treatment because of it.

>> vaughn hillyard, what do you got? >> reporter: donald trump over the years doesn't play off of folks' emotions, sympathy or sorrow for me. it's more of a rattle legitimate up of anger. . i just got off the phone with a close ally of donald trump who is telling me, look, we cannot let this linger in the background. we can the not ignore the fact that this trial is going on. saying this quote, we want the people to watch what's happening. it's the first communist show trial to come to america. donald trump has never suggested that he's not going to go on the attack against potential jurors, against michael cohen, stormy daniels, the prosecutors. he's take everybody on from jeff sessions to literally this winter. so for donald trump, there's one playbook that we have seen him consistently play in the attack playbook. and that is where he was given this grace period until tuesday morning to show he would act in

a different measure. we have a couple days to get to that hearing. but in the meanwhile, he's sit ing in the courtroom with potential jurors sitting in front of him and answering questions about him. and there's one i think the update here is that we now have two more seated jurors, and there's one striking moment that played out here in really time. that was this juror, whose posts were brought updating back to 2016. i want to read you the quote that she posted on her social media saying, trump is an anat ma to anything i was taught about faith. i should apologize for the tone of my post. apologizing to donald trump. after some back and forth about whether this juror should be able to sit as part of the jury, the judge ordered her to be struck. but this is a moment here where donald trump and his presidency and post presidency have drawn strong emotions out of a great number of human beings. those are coming out in

realtime. folks are being questioned on the spot in front of donald trump about some of those social media posts that his defense attorneys are rightfully and to their ability to bring up inside of the courtroom. but it's very transparent here that this is a difficult process that's playing out. >> two more jurors have been seated since vaughn has been reporting. i don't know who his sources are, but it sounds like the kind of world view someone like steve bannon might have. the idea that this is a communist-style show trial, this is a sex scandal where he was too sloppy to do the books in a full manner. >> i want to maybe take this to what can happen now to protect the jurors short of this issue about the gag order. as you know, this is an anonymous jury but the names are

given to the defense council. they are making use of that correctly to identify potential problems. it's right that they are able to challenge prior statements. you want a jury that doesn't have strong views a that they can't put aside. so that's all fine, but the anonymity is something that already we have seen breached. the other thing the judge can do is do some form of sequestration. that can be everything from waiting until the jury is ready to deliberate, then the judge could say i'm going to sequester the jury at that point. it's from the moment they are sworn, they are sequestered for the entire trial. that's very rare, but that is something that can be done. then there's a third option, which i have seen in a number of the organized crime cases that i

haven engaged in where they are sequestered for the deliberations. before then, the judge called it they are escorted. so the united states marshals, this was in the federal system, would escort each juror to court, from court and during the day they would be under marshal protection so nobody could talk to them or get access to them, but they were able to go home at night. then obviously, they are given notes not to talk about the case or media contact about the case. those are very difficult things to do there are steps the judge can take in light of this onslaught, but first and foremost is going to be dealing with the violation of the gag order and making a determination about whether there's been that violation and the consequences

because i think if they are not real consequences, and it's viewed as just another slap wrist, we're going to see the kind of conduct we have seen in the last few days is going to escalate. >> sue had a question. is there ever an instance where there are more than the normal amount of alternates in case people face intimidation or wake up and feel scared or don't the to be on the jury anymore? >> the judge said he's going to have six alternates. that's a very large number of alternates for a case. so that will be sufficient. but you have to take steps to protect those jurors. as i said, there's two ways to do it. one has to do with anonymity and storms of sequestration.

that's sort of what comes incoming to them, but when you know what the source is of that so if you don't take steps on that, this is not a shield that you put up more bombs coming in who when you know who is launching those missiles. >> we have news from our reporter who says all 12 have been seated. they are on to the alternates. . so this is moving quickly today. >> it does once they have decided on a group. they have some striking and the judge can strike them, but once you get that group, the same thing happened yesterday. it could start with opening arguments. >> it could be opening arguments. >> a quick last word.

>> reporter: we're at 12. my last word here is could we begin this on monday morning? this morning took a little bit different of a turn. we were talking about the scrutiny this these folks are facing. whether it's their old social media posts from eight years or hearing from friends and family who undoubtedly love them but have a view of donald trump. this is the conversation we're going to be having repeatedly here is just the amount of pressure that's going to be on the 16 individuals, these 18 individuals when the potential future president of the united states, potential guiltness is on the line. the stakes are so high. it's going to come down to these 18 individuals. >> thank you so much for being there and starting us off. everyone else sticks around. stay with us. we're going to bring in the new voice to the conversation to talk to us about how donald trump is ushering in

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♪ limu emu ♪ ♪ and doug ♪ hello, ghostbusters. it's doug... ... of doug and limu. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. anyway, we got a bit of a situation here. ♪♪ uh-huh. uh-huh. ♪♪ [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ ghostbusters: frozen empire. in theaters now. the judge in donald trump's first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president has just announced inside that courtroom that we have our jury. joining our coverage is executive director at protect democracy ian baa sin is here. the table is still here. andrew weisman is still here.

your thoughts on, one, this moment, and two, the tactics being deployed by trump and his allies in this moment. >> i would zoom out pretty far. >> please, that's why you're here. >> i'm going to zoom really high up and think about the fundamental different ways that we as human beings can live together. and historically, one way is a state of nature. might makes right. it you're strong enough to go punch another kid in the schoolyard and take their milk money, you go ahead and do that. some people have no compunction operating that wit. they have no morality. they find that because they are willing to punch the other kid and take his milk money, that their opponent is the rules. for the rest of us, we don't. want to live in a that state of nature where we're constantly

fighting everybody for a scrap of food. we'd like a system in which we're protected. our property protected. our safety is protected. we'd like there to be a system of rules. those are the two fundamental different ways to organize the society. and we largely have chosen to organize a rules based society. but there are people, bullies, authoritarians, people like donald trump, people like vladimir putin that operate pert when there are no rules. when they can simply beat people up in vague ukraine, launch ab insurrection on the capital, lie about what they are doing, falsify their business records and just try to snatch and grag what they can. trump operates better in that world. it's in husband interest to attack every system of rules that the rest of us depend on for our peace and security. to get to a level of what's happening in manhattan today, what trump is engaged in here is an attack on the rules. aan tack on courts, an attack on judges on jurors and witnesses,

because they all represent constraints on what a bully can get away with. it's woe to all of us if he's able to succeed and undermining the system that protects us all to with secure and free. >> that's such a simple way to frame the clash. what we're living through feels as awful and violent and gagged day after day because for the time being, we have voted for leaders who agree we live under the rule of law. for the first time, the other party suspect just represented by someone who believes in different things. they believe in a different system where might makes right. i wonder your advice for those covering it. trump isn't trying to get jurors to listen to the facts. what's he trying to get? >> i think for those of us about

identifying the stakes and the differences here, because i think what gets lost for many, who may not pay as excruciating attention to the details as people like i do, it's mistaken flat there are two people running for office that just have different views about what the top marginal tax rate should be or how we should regulate the health care sector. typically, that has been basically been the choice in american elections. that's been one of the great successes of the american experiment. by and large for a lot of of the modern era, that's been the choice. you prefer the policies of this candidate. we're not in that moment. we're in a moment where the very safety, security, peace freedom that a rules-based system, it's

at stake. and donald trump is largely captured his party in pushing this is pushing an agenda to dismantle all of that. and whether you agree or disagree with joe biden's policy, and liz cheney has said this eloquently, we can survive policies you disagree with. we cannot survive a state of nature in which there are no rules. >> i want to ask you to stick around. i want to ask you about the tactics that have been deployed at his allies. but i just want to bring our audience the breaking news that this jury has been sworn in. we are off to the races. >> we have to still get through the alternates tomorrow. i'm going to say carefully the jury has been sworn in. some could have a change of mind that they are worried about it. >> that's what happened this morning. >> very much still in flux, but we have a jury. if that process goes as it's been going, we could have opening arguments monday morning

and a reminder that the court on monday sits until 2:00. then it's dark on wednesday. so that's kind of going -- if it goes ahead monday morning, that's what we're looking at. >> ian, to your point, this might be extraordinary only because of the defendant, but it's also extraordinary because one of the jurors, who this mornings was excused, was excused after trump's allies on fox news attacked her for getting her news from google and "the new york times" and believing that, quote, no one is above the rule of law. that was disqualifying in the view of trump's allies. >> i think we spent a lot of time, and we should, on some of the specific plans for example that donald trump said they would ill plemt if returned to power. but those attacks on systems and institutions are part of the danger.

i think perhaps one of the most corrosive dangers that we face is the unleashing of termites in the foundations of our system that trump and allies unleash by sewing doubt in the trust that we have had in our institutions by suggesting that courts can't be trusted, that juries can't be trusted, that every actor here is acting corruptly and net fair oustly, it's undermining that trust that's one of the greatest long-term threats to the stability and future success of this country. because a democracy depends on a certain degree of trust. it's never been perfect, but we have been in the process of improving. when you get people like trump and allies like waters sewing such doubt in the system that people say none of it can be trusted, that's when the whole thing begins to collapse. >> just wrote this down. i'm going to pin it to my wall. unleashing the termites in the foundation of our society. i need all of you to stick prnd around. a quick break. we'll be right back. round. a quick break. we'll be right back.

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we're covering the breaking news that in the first criminal trial between donald j. trump as the defendant, the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president, the judge, judge juan merchan has just announced inside that courtroom that the jury has been selected. they have been sworn in. tomorrow this process does continue because six, the number that andrew weissmann tells us is a large number of alternates,

six alternates will be selected, and all of the jurors, the ones that were sworn in today as well as the alternates that are likely selected tomorrow will hear all of the facts and all of the evidence in this case, which could start as early as monday. andrew weissmann. >> so just in addition, one of the alternates has been selected so there are five more that will be selected tomorrow, both sides under state law are given two preemptories for each alternate that they have to use for that person. so when we get to alternate two, a proposed juror will come on and each side will have the opportunity to exercise two preempto preemptories, then you're done. the next person gets closen as number two. it's possible overnight you could lose some of the initial 12, in which case like alternate one would move into one of the

juror seats, but it does appear that there will almost certainly be a full jury of the 12 jurors and the alternates by the end of the day tomorrow, if not sooner, and that would mean openings on monday. so a relatively quick pace for judge merchan in moving this case along. >> i want to read something ian tweeted yesterday for everybody to mull. this process really gets real for everybody including donald trump. quote, there isn't another defendant in the country who could thumb their nose at pretrial conditions of release the way donald trump has and remain walking. trump has been given special treatment that no one else would get. if you'd done what trump's done, you'd be in jail. and it just seems like another thing to keep front of mind that the conduct is not normal. we should never normalize it, and if i did it or you did it, we'd be in jail. >> and the irony here, of course, is that his argument is

that he is being singled out for special negative treatment, right? he's saying he is the victim of a witchhunt, when the reality is he is actually being singled out as was pointed out in the previous panel for special treatment and is being given so much running room, what i really fear is it's posing a threat to the physical safety of the various actors in the courtroom. >> and to your point, in your experience and your history, it is exactly what he does, and so far no force, not the presidency, not serving as the commander in chief, not being charged with 88 felonies, no force has changed. >> he rolls unusually because he's had an unusual amount of luck, you know, as a young man he was surrounded and insulated by money, and then he became a tv celebrity, and he enjoyed the insulation that celebrity provided him. then he became president, and now he's got the enormous legal

insulation that comes with that office. and now as an ex-president he's using money and lawyers and his own media presence to continue to thumb his nose at the system. one of the things that ian said about the extent to which trust broadly defined is being degraded now because of trump, i think we have to really think about what that means for the long-term health of the country because trumpism will outlast donald trump. even if donald trump loses in november, he's paved this path to power for the gop and others who aspire to roll like him is built on degrading everyone's trust in any other institution or any other figure than him, and to really wage a culture war, not discuss policy, not discuss the makeup of the court or foreign policy, and to really appeal to people's worst instincts, and we're going to live with that, whether we like it or not for a very, very long time. and that's another reason why he

is such a damaging and dangerous and destructive person. >> yeah, i mean, ian, the war on the rule of law was one of the earliest autocratic impulses to reveal itself. he wanted jim comey to see to it to let mike flynn go, let flynn go, he's a good guy he said to jim comey. he we want when jeff sessions -- jeff sessions we want when he screamed at him because he'd appointed a special counsel to investigate the trump campaign's ties to russia. he attacked the mueller prosecutors relentlessly day after day. when he calls jack smith deranged, it doesn't even make the news. he's put so much toxicity, so much poison, so much hatred for the rule of law into the system. do you think it can be reversed? >> look, i have a colleague who

is a former criminal defense attorney, and what he will tell you is if your client has neither the law on their side nor the facts on their side, the only strategy left to you is to attack the system itself, to attack the entire thing, and i think what we should expect from trump during this trial and any of the other trials that proceed is exactly that behavior, and you just alluded to how he did it to muller, and he did it to comey. when the facts of the law are not on one's side, you attack the system, and there is a very frightening precedent for that to your question about what the future holds. roughly 100 years ago, kind of almost to the week, another demagogue who had attempted to overthrow their government in 1923 in munich was put on trial for that attempted insurrection, and that demagogue used that trial to put the entire national government on trial and sow doubt in the government, and that doubt they sowed later led

to their ascension to power. i'm not going to name who that is, you can figure it out. >> andrew weissmann, on that note, you get the last word at this hour! to pick up on what ian said, i think one of the things that's incredibly pernicious is i agree completely with ian's comment that you can divide this into sort of state of nature where might makes right and a rule of law, but one of the ways in which this is so pernicious is that if you were to ask sort of, you know, trump acolytes, they clothed themselves in this might makes right is actually the rule of law. they want to have those trappings, have people believe, no, they are the rule of law. this is, in fact, what happened in nazi germany, just to put a name on it, and this idea of trying to cloak yourself in the veneer of legality, in the

veneer, and that is where the enablers that we're seeing in so many different places, when ian correctly referred to as sort of termites, that is how pernicious the sort of trumpism is in terms of what's going on, and it really brings to the fore the importance of this criminal case that we are talking about and how important it is to the country to see the rule of law upheld and to bring it back to the minute scale, it is why it is so important that you don't let a defendant here undermine the process and what's absolutely essential, which is the jury system in this criminal justice process. >> two of the most profound voices of our time, thank you for joining us for our special breaking news coverage. everyone else, stick around. it's now 5:00. breaking in the last few minutes, we have a jury so said

judge juan merchan to the 12 people, seven men and five women who have now been sworn in, tasked with deciding nothing less than the criminal fate of a disgraced ex-united states president. we understand from our sources inside the courtroom that the jurors appeared somber as they raised their right hands to swear to hear the case in a fair and impartial manner, all the while the criminal defendant in this case, donald trump watched on. alternates, alternate jurors still need to be selected. this is as clear an indication as ever that opening statements in the criminal trial could begin on monday morning. this is where we start the hour with some of our reporters and experts. former assistant u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, glenn kirschner is here, joining us former federal prosecutor for fdny jessica roth joins us, suzanne craig and tim ryan are

in the check out, you can never leave seats. i'll start with you, we've turned to you on these facts for years now on this trial for days now. we were sitting here as a day that started as one of the jurors coming in today and saying can't do it, sorry. 12 have been selected and sworn in. >> right. and we thought there was -- you know, seven when we left last night. five this morning. >> yeah. >> this is how it works, and tomorrow morning we could have 12 and an alternate or we could lose a few overnight. we just don't know how it's going to play out. it does look like we're adding towards a jury with alternates by the end of the day tomorrow. >> you've sat in a courtroom when trump's been on trial in a civil manner. >> right. >> what do you detect just from being around -- we're going to monitor this to see if he attacks jurors. we're going to monitor this for news. we're not going to listen to him live on this show. we are monitoring that. we promise you won't miss anything if it's news. >> just in terms of his behavior and i've now sat through both

the criminal trial of the trump organization in 2022 and also the civil trial, so this is now going to be number three. i mean, his -- he was laser focused today on the jurors, and we didn't have that in the civil trial where his -- you know, his behavior about inflating assets was up. so this was new to me to see that, but he definitely -- there's days where we saw him nodding off, you know, resting his eyes. today he was very engaged in looking over at the jurors and also sending notes to his lawyers. i think he was full on in terms of his attention on this. one of the jurors, you know, we had it come up losing track of the days now, i think monday where he was gesturing towards her and got spoken to by the judge really sternly. >> the judge described it as muttering. can we turn him down a little bit. we are listening in the control room to see if he makes any news. we won't deprive our viewers of

any news made by trump. we just want to make sure it doesn't include threats directed at the jurors or identifying any information about jurors who have been selected. he's waving around papers. last time he did that, he was altering a hurricane map. we're going to vet that to make sure it doesn't endanger the public safety. >> i'm surprised that we actually have a full complement of 12 jurors at this point, i didn't anticipate that. i do anticipate we're going to probably lose some as we did -- >> this morning. >> -- just because of the volume of information about them, frankly, that's already out there. and what seems the intensity of people publiciing that information including the former president's allies. >> may be exactly what he's doing right now. >> we don't know what's going to happen overnight. i'm actually pleasantly surprised we're at this point. i hold out hope that actually the trial could start next week, but i do think that it's going to be necessary maybe even to have more than six alternates given the pace at which we've already lost two qualified jurors. >> tim.

>> you know, these -- this perform art he engages with on the sidewalk after every day, you know, the court hearings, and i think are almost as damaging. they're not as damaging, but they're almost as damaging as the threats he's making to people involved in the process. monday he came out and did the accordion, which is one of his great tells. usually when he starts doing the accordion, he's bloviating or flat out lying or some version of that. >> that's amazing. >> there's so many tells. >> that was when he complained -- >> one of the things he said is he came out and he started playing the invisible accordion. and he said, you know, i'm being prosecuted for illegal expense. this is a legal expense. and he's not being prosecuted for a legal expense. he's being prosecuted for cooking the books allegedly in order to cover up hush money payments meant to interfere with the outcome of an election.

it is not for a legal expense and so in addition -- >> because we know he doesn't pay those bills. >> that's right. he doesn't pay his bills. >> now his campaign is paying them, so it's a campaign expense, and i think that -- i think the kind of unwavering disdain he has for the process, for the charges levied against him, for the well-being of the jury, and you know, what sue was talking earlier about watching him, you know, vis-a-vis a jury having been through two, you know, prior hearings, he's disdaining the jury openly. his -- you know, at the end of some of the court processes, his attorneys would stand up to show their respect to the jury, but he would remain seated, and you know, then this issue of sort of staring them down with his laser eyes or whatever he's hoping to accomplish, you know, his voodoo magic. it's all of -- you know, it's all of a fit with this idea that

he thinks he's above the law. he thinks he's untouchable. he thinks he has the right to intimidate. he thinks he has a right to make fun of the case prosecutors have brought against him, and i think, you know, he doesn't believe he'll have a come up pans. that's one of the things about this trial, the facts are going to be in a public forum. he deserves one. >> go ahead. he's also a first time offender in this forum. if he's found guilty -- >> we can't get ahead of the story, anything can happen. whatever he was doing, he appears to be done. the day did start with at least one juror who was smeared by fox news's jesse waters last night, an attack amplified by donald j. trump today leaving. we have some analysis that she might not be the only one. what's your sense of where we are at this milestone moment, a

jury of 12 of donald trump's peers had been sworn in? >> you know, nicolle, the last thing anybody wants, except for perhaps donald trump, is for jurors to feel intimidated and let that creep in to their assessment of the case, let it creep in to their deliberations. you really want jurors to decide the case only based on the facts and the law as the judge instructs them on the law. and you know, donald trump seems intent on injecting fear and intimidation and threats either himself or through his supporters when he posts things about his perceived enemies, and he names names. you know, we all know what he is signaling to his supporters, basically get them. get after them in any way you can. so i think it's going to be really important that this jury is protected not only against

actual violence but against intimidation, you know, from any source. and i think judge merchan is up to the task, but i also think he has his hands full, you know. i tried rico cases in the courts of d.c. where we had anonymous juries. i only tried two of those in my 30 years as a prosecutor, both in the military and in the civilian sector, and it was because we were trying a case against the largest criminal organization that we ever charged under the rico laws. "the washington post" tubbed the organization murder inc., murder incorporated, and that kind of stuck, at least through the course of the trial, and it was because that criminal organization killed 31 people over the course of about eight or nine years. they killed their perceived enemies. they killed witnesses against the organization.

they actually killed their own members when the members tried to leave the organization because if you left the organization, there was at least a risk that you might cooperate with the authorities and flip against the organization. when i think about the fact that in my experience as a career prosecutor, there were only two trials that required anonymous juries, and those were the kinds of people we were prosecuting, and now we have a need for an anonymous jury when we're prosecuting a former president of the united states. >> let me ask you two things about that, glenn, we also have a call and response pattern on the record when it comes to donald trump. to the proud boys, stand back and stand by. to mike pence who had run for his own safety and that of his own family after that fact, facts certainly known by secret service protecting both donald trump and mike pence. trump tweets out another threat endangering his life further. i mean, we know that there isn't

a circuit breaker when it comes to an imminent threat of violence against someone who has displeased him. how do you protect a jury that doesn't have the kind of secret service protection mike pence had? >> well, i will say when our jurors were anonymous -- and let me add, they were anonymous to us, the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. we didn't even know their names. so i sat there in court for six months staring at them, and they were staring at us, and i didn't even know their names. in fact, i remember getting up in closing arguments after six months and saying, folks, we've been staring at each other for six months, do you know how happy i am that i finally get to talk directly with you, but with we had u.s. marshals that would transport the jurors to the courthouse every day from an undisclosed location. we didn't know where they were picking them up, and at the end of every trial day, they would be transported back out by the u.s. marshals to that undisclosed location. i hope that if that becomes

necessary they, you know, implement similar security procedures and protocols in the new york case because, you know, i have a feeling it's going to be a very bumpy ride for these jurors. >> let me share with our jurors what we believe to be happening right now. judge juan merchan, the judge overseeing the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president announced just about 21 minutes ago that the jury had been selected. he then swore in 12 jurors who will, along with the alternates, one of whom has been selected, five additional at least will be selected tomorrow, donald trump appeared to come out and wave around some papers. we chose not to listen to that, but we'll make sure that if you missed anything important, we'll be able to report that for you. we are waiting for our correspondent who are still inside the courthouse locked down, and you said this has been the practice all day? >> right, they're locked down because, first of all, they've got to get the jurors out so that the media and the jurors don't run into each other. often there's the case you can

get into an elevator and have jurors in the elevator, and i've been in a situation like that where we've been called in front of a judge after that has happened. also donald trump has to get out of the building, and he has secret service. the most important thing is those jurors get out and they have no interaction with anybody involved in the case. so it can take time. today i was coming up to the show, i hoped to kind of try to get out of there with a little bit of time on the subway, and i was locked in the courtroom until 3:23, 3:25 and had to run up here. they were not letting anybody out because there were jurors in the hallway. they were moving them from one room to the other. it's a complicated dance up on that 15th floor right outside the courtroom. >> and tomorrow there will be another influx, right? >> there will, and i noticed today that they're being really -- a lot more careful i think everyone than they were, the lockdowns are longer, and they're often locked down in like -- i was surprised at 3:00 in the afternoon, it's not like a lunch hour that they were

locking them down. they're just trying to do everything they can to make sure that they're coming in and out without interaction. >> there's an irony there, there's this extra security because of the secret service protecting the former president but in terms of who actually needs protection in this situation, it seems it's actually the jurors as much, if not more. the situation is bizarre. >> it's kind of -- yeah, and the other thing is you go through security when you come into the building in the morning, everybody goes through this, and then when you get to the 15th floor, there is a whole 'nother level of security that involves the secret service, and you've got the mags out, so you have to go through that twice. it takes a long time, and i don't know if we're ever going to figure out how much money is being spent on this between the court police, the state police, the city police, and i don't even know who else. we'll probably never figure that out. it is just enormous. >> and the secret service simply

to have a form of justice downtown for donald trump. >> you know, one of the failures in our politics was this fail euro of imagination, people couldn't imagine running against hillary clinton and joe biden in the way trump did, so crass and surviving things like the release of the access hollywood tape. are there any parallels to be drawn with the rule of law? is there anything that people haven't imagined in the terms of the kinds of ways that we protect jurors? >> i was going to say, what we're encountering right now is donald trump against the criminal justice system. >> right. >> just as we saw him encountering the civil legal justice system with e. jean carroll in the civil fraud case, and so lawyers and courts and court staff i think are not accustomed to having to deal with somebody who will not abide by the norms. >> or a gag order. >> or a gag order. with respect to the jurors and what we're seeing happening in realtime in terms of the threats to them and the concerns they have about their safety and their privacy, the judge

anticipated that when he amended the last gag order against donald trump. he extended it to family members of himself and the others involved in the case, precisely because he said i'm not only concerned about the safety of my family and the families of the other lawyers, et cetera, but i'm concerned about essentially the ripple effects that jurors -- potential jurors and witnesses will be worried about participating in this case in any way, shape, or form because of concerns about their own safety and those of their families. so he saw that this was coming and there's a lot riding on whether he enforces that gag order when there's a hearing on it next week. he's going to be setting the tone for what happens henceforth. >> what should he do? >> well, the d.a. has asked for fines. i think the last time i read their filing, it was a thousand dollars per violation, but that was at the time there were three alleged violations. i think now we're up to at least ten, and so they're happening more by the hour. it will be interesting if they ask for something other than

monetary fines. that gets tricky if they're going to ask for him to be held in custody. i imagine they're going to ask for more in the way of fines, and a stern admonition. if the judge does that and trump continues to violates order, we're in unchart ed territory and the judge really has his work cut out for him in terms of maintaining order. >> trump doesn't care about fines. >> he just lost a half a billion dollars, he borrowed it from some guy in l.a. >> it's just not going to -- the fact is that because he wages, you know, this daily assault on rules and then we're surprised because normal, healthy people aren't unhinged enough to violate every sort of civic norm in the way that he does, it empowers him to keep doing it, and unless there's just a hard penalty on the other side of rule breaking, the rules don't matter. it will not be finings. he won't even pay for the fine himself, whatever the amount is, and it could be $100,000 or

$500,000, i don't think he cares because i think he believes that he's getting a lot of value out of assaulting civic norms and the rule of law in the way he does. it's worth 10,000 to $500,000 to him, i don't think he'll want to sit in a cell. >> the one thing he does do if he disrupts the proceedings, he's been told he's going to jail. i think that's going to be the line. >> he's tweeted about it. he said i look forward, it would be my honor to go to jail. we'll see. >> martyr. >> glenn kirschner, i want to read brand new reporting we just got in from the pool. before court ended for the day, trump's attorney todd blanche asked if they could find out the names of the first three witnesses. steinglass replied that it's a courtesy they normally extend but he refused to in this case. he said, quote, mr. trump has been tweeting about the witnesses. we're not telling them who the witnesses are. judge merchan said, quote, he can't blame them.

blanche seemed mystified. i'm sorry, i didn't mean to laugh, announced if he's not going to find out who the witnesses are if they walk in the door. he offered to, quote, commit to the court and the people that president trump will not -- the ver b is truth, i think that's his social media thing. truth about any witnesses. merchan said, quote, i don't think you can make that recommendation. blanche trump's lawyer offered a different solution. giving the witness names to the lawyers -- this is delicious -- but they wouldn't share them with trump. quote, i'm not going to order them to do it, no. i'll see you tomorrow morning said merchan. what are we learning about merchan, glenn? >> first of all, when a defendant is so dangerous that we have to ask for what are called protective orders, not all that unusual, but usually reserved for some of our nation's most violent offenders, what we do is we will ask the judge to direct the defense counsel not to provide

information to the client. that gets a little dicey, but we use protective orders not infrequently, it sounds like judge merchan is not even willing to do that, and what i say is safety first. you know, the system needs to rise up and protect these witnesses. so as a courtesy, i absolutely agree. i would almost always give the defense notice of the order of call. that is who are the witnesses who we are expected to put on the stand tomorrow and the next day and the next day. it's the courteous thing to do, but safety first. so you know, and we continue for whatever reason nicolle, we're all talking about how fines won't mean anything to him. but you know, the law actually has a vehicle to hold a dangerous pretrial defendant accountable, and it's called pretrial detention. if there's clear and convining evidence that the defendant who's on release in a felony case presents a danger to the community or even one person in

the community, the law says he can be detained pending trial, for whatever reason. this is the one thing that shakes me to my core and causes me to lose a little bit of faith in the institutions of government, for whatever reason, the institutions of government have decided we will sacrifice the safety of everybody else to leave donald trump out and about to endanger his perceived enemies, and that is witnesses and jurors and prosecutors and judges, and their family members when the law actually has a way to take care of a defendant on pretrial release who presents a danger to all of those people. and yet, no institution, no prosecutor, no judge has opted to sort of prod that part of the law into wakefulness. >> do you think that's going to change, glenn? do you think there's a trip wire here? is there conduct that could change. i share your assessment, i think you know that.

do you think there's conduct that could change that? >> i do, and here's what happens when defendants violate orders and they continue to violate orders. judges take it incrementally. the first violation is usually a stern warning. the second violation is fines, but when the fines come, the judges will generally say -- and i promise you, mr. defendant, if you do it again for a third time, you're going into a jail cell. i have a hard time imagining trump making it through this trial without landing in a jail cell. >> wow. >> we both said wow. >> i'd like to hear from glenn, do you think the judges are storing these up? i'd like to have a hearing now. >> there's seven, right? i think they added seven today to an existing list. so there's more than seven. >> so we're at almost, you know, a baker's dozen of violations of the gag order. glenn, is it a matter of time before you have a hearing on the gag order, or do you think he's waiting for these to stack up

like planes at laguardia? >> so people wanted to know why is he going to wait a week to take up the contempt motion? i think it's because under new york state law, there are different kinds of contempt. if you -- if the contempt is committed in the presence of the judge, that's like in the movies the judge can bang the gavel and summarily say i hold you in contempt. if the contempt is not committed in the presence of the judge, then the new york state law provides the defendant is entitled to notice and an opportunity to defend, and i think that is why judge merchan set them off for about a week. they're going to pile up, and i think donald trump is going to continue to behave badly, and then judge merchan is going to have a decision to make. and do i do what i would do to any other litigant in these circumstances and put him in a jail cell. >> so again, donald trump has never been a defendant in a criminal trial, but he and his allies have intimidated witnesses to his alleged bad behavior before. if we still have the 60 minutes

interview of stormy daniels, i'd like to play that. that's going to take a sec, i'll go to sue. let me know. do we have that? okay. i mean, you know these facts. stormy daniels talks abouting with -- about being followed, being threatened. michael cohen is on tv talking about being anxious and nervous. hope hicks is on the list, never been on the list before, david pecker, long-time friend, hasn't spoken in a forum this publicly. he was an accomplice. he had some limited immunity when sdny looked at these facts. what is your sense of what is possible in terms of trump and his allies targeting these witnesses? >> it seems like a lot of it could be soft intimidation. i've talked to michael cohen, a lot of us have, about how concerned he is about his safety. i've talked to him, it's real for him. they're not providing him any help in terms of extra security

or things like that, and when he walks down the street, somebody comes up to him, he doesn't know how that's going to go, and i think that part of it isn't just that somebody's threatening you, it's the seed that they plant that gets you worried and you're always looking over your shoulder. i think that stormy daniels and michael cohen come to mind in particular, about two people that have been targeted and there's hate sent to them on social media. at a certain point, you don't know what's going to happen. those sort of threats are effective. when you hear something at night at your home, you don't know what it is. >> you're terrified. >> it's a form of terror. whether you're the of a violent assault or not, being terrified. >> i was in a parking lot going to a fitness class with my infant daughter. i was taking, you know, the seats facing backwards in the backseat, diaper bag, you know, getting all the stuff out, and a

guy walked up on me and said to me, leave trump alone. forget the story. and then he leaned around and looked at my daughter and said a beautiful little girl, it'd be a shame if something happened to her mom. and then he was gone. >> you took it as a direct threat? >> absolutely. i was rattled. i remember going into the workout class and my hands were shaking so much i was afraid i was going to drop her. >> trump's orbit. >> it's terrifying. these people are incredibly strong to be going forward and i really worry about the jurors. i worry about the witnesses, but i really worry aout the jurors who are just ordinary citizens who have been called to do their civic duty. even if their identities are not disclosed and thus far they haven't been, showing up every day and sitting in judgment on this man. it's not that big a courtroom, and so there's going to be this very real potential intimidation factor just being present there to say nothing of what's

happening sort of online outside of the courtroom. >> is it possible, i mean, can this be done? >> this trial? >> yes. >> absolutely. >> safely? >> it all depends on the judge to be honest and how stern he will be. how willing he will be to take whatever measures are necessary to hold mr. trump accountable for his conduct. i don't mean with respect to what's charged in the case. i mean the ongoing conduct. and i think that it's going to be incumbent on the lawyers to be professionals here and not to let themselves get caught up too much in sort of the emotions of what's happening and to help the judge by briefing when necessary to do these things in realtime as they're happening. you know, if it's enforcing a gag order, if it's holding trump in contempt, right, the judge will need the assistance of the lawyers. the judge is very capable, but if he can be assisted by the lawyers, i think that will be very helpful. i think there's going to be constant distractions. i don't expect that that's going to quiet down at all.

it's going to be exhausting for everybody involved, and they're going to have to operate on multiple fronts, the appellant front, the trial front, what's happening outside of the courtroom, so i think it can happen, and i hope very much it happens without any incident. >> sue craig, we have taken so much of your time, an hour and a half to be exact. thank you so much for being here. i hope you'll come back tomorrow. >> of course. >> all of the news. everyone else sticks around. much more in our breaking news coverage, the full 12-person jury in donald trump's hush money election interference trial has been seated. our correspondent lisa rubin is on the way making her way to the cameras. she'll join us in just a minute. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ontinues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning. it's the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. trust. hang out. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions

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joining our break news coverage, our colleague msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, she's been inside the courthouse for us all day long. it took you a bit to get out because of what we've been talking about for the last hour and a half, the need and the judge's commitment to keeping jurors and potential jurors safe. tell us about the day and its dramatic conclusion of swearing in 12 jurors. >> reporter: nicolle, it was the day that people didn't think would come for a few weeks, and i said earlier today that based on the math we'd have a jury of 12 today, and indeed we do. we have a jury of 12 and one alternate, but the day did not end without fireworks and that's because todd blanche understanding that opening statements are likely to happen monday asked the d.a. for something that's usually routine in criminal cases or even civil cases. please give us your list of your first two to three witnesses

because we're going to possibly have the first witness go on on monday too. the d.a.'s office said usually we'd do it as a courtesy, but in this case your client over there, he's been tweeting about the witnesses and endangering them, so we won't do it. he tried several ways to make it happen. first he said i'll promise you that my client won't tweet. and there was an eruption of laughter in the overflow room, and judge merchan himself responded i don't think you can promise that. and then they said what if we made that information attorneys eyes only, meaning we won't show it to our client. joshua steinglass still demurred. eventually judge merchan said look i can't find fault with them given what has gone on here. i'm not going to make them do it. we are likely barrelling towards opening statements on monday, still without an understanding of who the d.a.'s first witnesses are, and nicolle, you can bet that if the d.a.'s office doesn't want to tell their adversary they're probably not going to tell folks like us either. so there will likely be a number of surprises here.

also for the protection of the witnesses, but it will add an element of drama to what already is promising to be the trial of this century. >> lisa, this is just -- it feels like a marker, right? the judge in this case is essentially describing what we've all watched in our politics now for nine years, trump's inability not to tweet as an uncontrollable bodily function, right? i would give you these names but we know that he can't not attack. that's a pretty extraordinary place for trump to start. >> it's an extremely extraordinary place for trump to start, particularly considering, nicolle, that the d.a.'s office opened this morning by giving the judge additional posts, in fact, seven additional posts that trump has made just since the trial opened asking judge merchan when he has a hearing next tuesday on three posts that they've already given him, they want him to add these additional seven and say, look, this is ten times totally that this guy has

violated your gag order. we want you to hold him in criminal contempt because of things like his truth social post and things that he has then put on his campaign website or included in emails. this is a person who is incapable of following your order, we want you to hold him in contempt. remember, they've so far asked for a thousand dollars per tweet or post as a fine, but they said today very, very cautiously we reserve the right to ask for more sanctions. we are still considering what's appropriate. and so that discussion today about trump being unable to control himself, if in possession of who the first three witnesses are, that occurs against the backdrop of merchan already being asked to impose discipline on trump for the ways in which he hasn't disciplined himself yet, nicolle. >> lisa, was there any change after this one juror who was singled out by jesse waters at fox news and identified through her biography and maligned and

then that attack amplified by donald trump, was there anything, you know, either said or unspoken that noted event? >> well, i mean, i do think that judge merchan has been really clear with the press that based on her expression of fear and her inability to serve, which she came forward at the beginning of the day and said she really had some concerns about her ability to be impartial because she felt attacked and given how much information was out there about her, he has instructed the press if it's not on the record, you're not to talk about it. if you can only observe it physically but you can't hear it being said, you can't read it in the transcript, he's making a very strong directive to the press, don't talk about it. he also granted a request to basically excise from the transcript people's employment information. so even if we can hear it being said, it will not appear on the

transcript, and i think most of the press in that room understands that that's off limits as well for the protection of these people, particularly given the environment in which they're living, which is a donald trump who continues to tweet about participants in this proceeding and who will not face a hearing for criminal contempt, at least until this coming tuesday. so given that, i think everybody is trying to exercise some caution here. it was chilling to hear her say i don't think i can participate anymore because of how much information is already out there about me. i have my friends and family texting me asking is this you. that's got to be an uncomfortable and frightening place for any person in this city to be right now. >> lisa rubin, our eyes and ears. thank you very much for joining us. let me bring into our coverage, isaac arnsdorf, the national political reporter for "the washington post." he was the pool reporter today inside the courtroom, tell us what that was like. >> i was actually out in the

hallway where trump was coming and going, and so we saw him as he left today walk over and address the camera and the reporters, and he was clearly very agitated. he brought with him a whole stack of papers, which he said were articles, recent articles he said -- although some of them sounded like articles from last year that were criticizing these charges, and he was complaining that -- he rattled off all the states that he would rather be in out campaigning when instead he was in this courtroom, which he described as uncomfortably cold. >> florida man muttering outside his own trial. tell me what you understand to be the dynamic or any tension or how we got from a morning where a juror who was maligned and attacked on fox news last night and identified coming in today and saying i'm so sorry, i cannot do this. to having a full jury of 12 seated a little less than an hour ago?

>> yeah, it was pretty amazing to start the day going backwards and finish the day with a complete jury and one alternate. the judge has been very expeditious about keeping things moving, and it looks like we will be on track to finish seating the alternates tomorrow and start opening arguments on monday. it is actually not super uncommon for jurors to go home, sleep on it, and have some cold feet, particularly in a high profile case like this, but not exclusively, and i wouldn't be surprised if that were to happen again tomorrow, if we were to go down a few before we get back up to 18. >> and certainly on fox news's prime time hours is not helpful. isaac arnsdor if thank you for your reporting. our political panel will join us now that we have this news, a jury of 12 have been sworn in in donald trump's

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table and we're going to figure out together how to do this. >> how strange is it for you to sit here and compare the president to a mob boss? >> very strange, and i don't to it lightly, and i'm not trying to by that suggest that president trump is out breaking legs and shaking down shopkeepers, but instead what i'm talking about is that leadership culture constantly comes back to me when i think about my experience with the trump administration. >> truer words. joining our coverage, former rnc spokesman, tim miller joins us, and msnbc contributor and columnist charlie sykes, glenn and tim are still here. tim miller, he's not breaking legs, but he and his allies are intimidating jurors. >> he's a bully, right? and he's been trying to get away with this, and unfortunately in a lot of ways getting away with this, using the same old trump tactics back to the 80s. you know, tim o'brien could talk about this better than me. it's the same type of tactics. what can he get away with, how

can he pressure and intimidate people. the thing that strikes me about what happened today is that the jung basically isn't having it, right? the judge is saying, no, we're not going to let you see the witnesses because we know you'r ing to intimidate them. this is some actual consequences and it does strike me as a contrast, versus what's happening with aileen cannon, letting him get away with all of his illegal activity related to the classiied documents, but you know, i think this is trump, comey saw it. this judge is seeing it, and now he's actually having to deal with the consequences of that, and then that's why you see whiny florida man outside the court after this. this is what happens when, you know, you're treated like a normal criminal. >> i mean, charlie, i feel like people like waving papers around is something that if you live in new york, people are always waving papers in your face coming out of the subway or moving around the city, and there he was. the variable isn't trump. this is how he's always operated in business and in politics and in life.

the variable just might be judge juan merchan. >> what you have is witness intimidation in plain sight and in realtime but the problem is he hasn't suffered any consequences yet. as tim o'brien pointed out, he doesn't care whether he gets fined, if he gets fined a thousand dollars per tweet. he is testing the system, and the reality is even though judge merchan is not having everything is we need to pull the lens back and realize that donald trump is getting away with something that no other criminal defendant would be able to get away with. he is clearly benefitting from his status, and the reluctance of the system to put the safety of everybody else first. and i think this is part of the thing that we sort of need to realize here is that don't get distracted by the circus aspect of this because your conversation in the last hour and a half has been absolutely fascinating.

ian basen talked about the way that donald trump is unleashing the termites. he is attacking the rule of law, he is attacking the rules, he is trying to undermine the credibility of the court. and so far the courts have not yet held him accountable. now, there may be some point where they do that, but that hasn't happened yet, and i think that's going to be one of the big tests, not just in this trial, but for the entire judicial system. will donald trump actually be held to the same standard that any other criminal defendant would be held to? so far that has not happened. >> glenn, charlie's absolutely right. the first page of on tyranny by timothy snider is about now the power that the authoritarians take but the power that the institutions give freely. and the power that the legal system has been giving to donald trump is he will not be treated the way i would be treated or tim miller would be treated, that is the power that the legal system has given freely to

donald trump. why? >> i don't know. that's exactly why we find ourselves where we do. i'll give charlie the hallelujah chorus because i couldn't agree with him more. i was sitting in a d.c. courtroom when the case was being argued about the gag order down in d.c., and one of donald trump's lawyers said, well, he's not responsible for what his supporters do after he posts something and the judge shut the defense attorney down and said, wait a minute, there is a clear pattern here. donald trump names somebody, posts something about somebody and threats ensue. we all know it, and the question is why is the system unwilling to do anything about it. you know, i hope we don't continue to sacrifice the safety of everybody else so donald trump can continue to play golf and hold fundraisers and hold his hate rallies, but thus far the inaction of the system is really what has landed us in this quagmire in which we find

ourselves. >> tim, your longer history with him reveals that this is really the first system he's conquered, right? political system. he was a laughing stock in new york business circles. >> he was, you know, a footnote actually to jokes about the excesses of the 1980s, and you know, the last time i was in his office, his office was like a museum set piece from the 1980s. he shag carpeting, right? and he dresses in this uniform of, you know, bold monochromatic tie and a dark jacket, always he's worn that since the 1980s. but i think the other reality emerging, this is a really important thing you've hit on today is this idea of the mobster because it's jarring to people the way that donald trump rolls as an ex-president because when you say president or white house, an image of a certain form of conduct and order arises. but he's actually, if you then think of him as acting like a mobster, it all falls into place. he has intersected with the mob

throughout his whole career. i think it's strange to me that the media hasn't really focused on just the fact pattern here. you know, the argument has been everyone in real estate has vendors who were mobbed up at one point, so anyone in real estate -- >> they didn't all become president. >> and also, they all don't have mobsters as partners. donald trump's first partners in atlantic city, ken shapiro, a bag man for the philadelphia mob and danny sullivan. those were his two partners in atlantic city. when trump tower got built, 80% of trump tower was built with concrete at a time when all the skyscrapers in manhattan had long since converted to building their high-rises out of steel. >> why? >> well, i mean, you know, i suspect because he was getting a sweetheart deal from the mob, and why he needed to get concrete and it was very mobbed up. he built a very palatial

apartment. when donald and i talked about this down in mar-a-lago he said, you know, i went to john cody and i told him what's what and that guy never, ever messed with me because he knew who he was dealing with. and then he pauses and he says, he's still in jail, right? it finally dawned on mr. tough guy that john cody isn't somebody he'd want to tangle with in public and he'd want to make sure he's still in jail because donald trump like every classic bully, if you push back, it's often masking infantile weaknesses. he's not a tough person when you scratch past the surface but he fetishizes mobsters. when we talked in the top of the hour, he wanted to model himself on john gotti.

that's how you should roll. he compared himself to al capone. he has a juvenile and dangerous fixation on how mobsters are to be honored and he models himself on that. >> tim, let me come back to you. what is it so broken inside the court in the party that you and i were once in that that's their guy? >> nicole, we could do a whole other hour on this? when does this show end? i think it's the bottom up thing. they are upset at the left. a lot of these grievances are irrational. there are a few rational grievances, a few legitimate reasons to be upset. they are so mad and so angry. he promised them he was going to fight the people that they hated, he shared their hatreds.

that allowed them to create a bar that they could unstick. today he's out there complaining that he can't campaign, he's got to be in court. he hasn't campaigned -- he's run the most lazy, lackadaisical presidential campaign in memory this time. last time it was covid so it was a little bit different. at a time when he could get out. he's in mar-a-lago golfing. he's barely doing these rallies, thank god actually, and so -- but they're sticking with him, right? they're sticking with him in view of the court. he says i share your grievances. now it's his grievances. they like the mob element of it. that's a pretty kind of dark place to be. it's not the whole republican party, but it's a significant

minority, significant enough minority that has given him this power. >> also aligning himself with the mob fawning, mob admiring ex-president is bill barr. >> i will support the republican ticket. i think the real danger to the country, the real danger of the democracy is, as i say, the progressive agenda. trump may be playing russian roulette but continuation of the biden administration is national suicide in my opinion. >> i promise my viewers we will never again air any tape of bill barr. he got in the right pocket to be resuscitated politically but he's fallen right back into line behind a president he says committed such flagrant crimes at mar-a-lago that the federal government's case is air tight. >> why are we surprised bill

barr turns out to be bill barr? it's still shocking. we ought to retain our capacity to be shocked. he was there. he saw it. he knows donald trump lied. he knows what he tried to do with the election and yet he has convinced himself that it's a binary choice that apparently playing russian roulette with the american people is a good choice for him, but i think that one of the things that is -- it is notable is the way in which donald trump has managed to transform the republican party, how he keeps moving the line of acceptable behavior. they made a faustian bargain in 2016 because of all kinds of grievances, whatever. think about what -- the price tag of that bargain has gone up and up and up. what they have been willing to swallow and say, yeah, bill barr was a man, former attorney

general, devoted his life, right, to conservative constitutional ideas and he's sitting back going, yeah, i am willing to support somebody who is facing multiple felony charges who i know is disconnected with reality, who tried to overthrow the government, all of those things, and i think that, again, it's easy -- we talked about normalization and being numbed by all of this, but this is a choice. not every republican has made this choice. not even mike pence made this choice. liz cheney didn't make this choice. adam kinzinger didn't make this choice. people like bill barr have been willing to surrender one principle after another, one moral standard after another, one legal principle after another. again, it's no longer surprising but we ought to retain the ability to be shocked by it. >> perfectly. thank you all for being with us.

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thank you so much for letting us in your home on this extraordinary day. hi, ari. what a whirlwind. >> we have a jury. we'll see you soon. welcome to the beat. the news is here. very important four words we heard from the judge presiding over this criminal trial, we have our jury.