final stages of renovation days away from reopening. >> the people that we lost loved this place. i could hear bob violet just telling me you can't give up. >> reporter: you feel like this is what the victims would have wanted. >> absolutely. >> reporter: bob and lucy violet were killed while volunteering with the youth league, just as they did every wednesday night. son john and his wife cassandra moved back to maine to continue that legacy. >> i look over at the lanes over here. that's where youth league wednesday night practice was, came in on a lot of wednesday nights with my own kids myself. so i try to remember the good things. >> we spent a lot of hours in this bowling alley, years and years and years here with them. so i kind of feel close to them by being here. >> i hope my presence encourages others and hopefully we can move forward. >> reporter: pressing on the only way they know how,

lewiston strong. >> we wish justin and samantha the best of luck in reopening the bowling alley and pray that everyone in lewiston is healing and moving forward in peace. on that note i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. earlier today a source with direct knowledge of the situation gave nbc news the biggest peek yet into what we should expect from trump's new york hush money trial next week, a potential witness list. let me back up. four days before election night in 2016 the "wall street journal" published this explosive story, national enquirer shielding donald trump from playboy model's affair allegation. it was what is known in the tabloid world as a catch and kill scheme.

trump had an affair with a playboy model named karen mcdougal. when trump ran for president, mcdougal tried to sell that story to the press. so the national enquirer bought the story from mcdougal and then they killed it and this is no longer just the stuff of allegation. in 2018 the national enquirer's parent company entered into a nonprosecution agreement with prosecutors in new york. the tabloid admitted the whole scheme in exchange for immunity from prosecution. around the time that was happening the "wall street journal" had another scoop. david ceo of the national enquirer, also had immunity with prosecutors. he was also spilling the beans. so knowing that background when nbc got this potential witness list today for trump's hush money trial, these names jumped out at me, karen mcdougal and david and the man who is editor and chief of the national enquirer at the time of that

catch and kill scheme, dylan howard. this is not the hush money the national enquirer paid karen mcdougal to kill her story. the hush money at the center of monday's trial is the money paid to stormy daniels. at the contour of these cases they are very, very similar. daniels like mcdougal was ready to go public with her story and was paid to stay silent. what's more, both payments, the money for karen mcdougal and money for stormy daniels, were payments in the lead up to the 2016 election and that could be key here because one of the central things that district alvin bragg will have to prove in this case is why donald trump did what he did, why he arranged those payments to stormy daniels. having karen mcdougal and david

and dylan howard on the witness stand explaining the karen mcdougal hush money case, explaining why the national enquirer was catching and killing stories that could be bad for donald trump in the lead up to the presidential election, well, that could really help illustrate trump's intent in a very similar case, the stormy daniels case. to that end, also on the potential witness list is keith davidson. davidson was the attorney for both karen mcdougal as she negotiated her payment from the national enquirer and he was the attorney for stormy daniels, as she negotiated her payment to stay quiet. i am sure mr. davidson has plenty to say about what he believes motivated the silencing of his two clients' stories. if you recall, the reason d.a. bragg has to prove the why here is because the way he structured the charges against trump here is not just one singular crime. bragg has charged trump with a

misdemeanor, the falsifying of business records, but bragg elevated that charge to a felony by alleging trump falsified those business records in service of committing another larger crime. now d.a. bragg has not yet revealed what that second larger crime is, but it is likely something like tax fraud or a state or federal election crime because stormy daniels' story wasn't killed on a random date, while donald trump was a businessman or hosting "the apprentice." stormy daniels story was killed the month before the 2016 general election and days after the access hollywood tape was made public, the tape where trump said he liked to grab women by the you know what. a story about trump allegedly having an affair with an adult film star just months after his own wife had given birth to their son, paying to make that story go away just before the election certainly feels a lot

like a campaign expense or at least an in-kind donation. that is why trump's knowledge and intent are so important here and why having witnesses like karen mcdougal and david and dylan howard and keith davidson could be so essential. these are not the only names on this potential witness list. there are also central figures, names you would recognize, trump's former lawyer michael cohen and stormy daniels herself. at this point i'm sure most of america has seen the checks donald trump signed paying michael cohen. michael cohen and stormy daniels both have been very public about how cohen paid stormy daniels for her silence. none of that is in dispute, but what trump has disputed since the story first became public in 2018 was whether trump knew about it, whether trump knew at the time that his payments to michael cohen were, in fact, a reimbursement to michael cohen for fronting the hush money to

stormy daniels. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> michael's my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> what trump knew about that reimbursement system and when he knew it will also be central to the case, which is what makes these less recognizable names also very interesting, jeffrey mcconnie. he would have had access and maybe needed to approve the payments to michael cohen which were all classified as payments for legal services. westerhaut was the oval office

secretary and because trump was doing all this reimbursing while he was in the white house as the president, she would have had a front row seat. that's not even the whole potential witness list. joining me now to discuss our msnbc legal correspondent lisa ruben and ankush khandori. you were more informed, lisa, given your following and deep legal expertise. who among those names stuck out as being essential to the prosecution's case? >> people are going to be talking when this trial gets underway about madeline westerhaut and that's because when donald trump engaged in his repayment of michael cohen, there were multiple checks sent to cohen. he repaid him over a series of months. six of the checks at least sent

to michael cohen were signed by donald j. trump in his distinctive sharpee scrawl and at a time when he was president of the united states. you have to ask yourselves where was donald trump when he sig checks? they are computerized, generated from some business. somebody had to have presented him with those checks to sign and that's where madeline westerhaut comes in. she was also trump's gatekeeper, as bobble woodwards. she was the key. if you wanted to communicate with trump, you had to go through her. expect the prosecution potentially to show her other evidence of the scheme to conceal the payments through these manufactured legal invoices because if someone wanted to send trump an email, we know trump doesn't email. we know he doesn't text. if they wanted to call him, who would have placed that call, the oval office secretary.

>> so fascinating. ankush, you made a point in politico and i think it's well taken especially for those of us outside the legal profession michael cohen is more of the problematic witness than i think perhaps the layman understands. can you elaborate when you think his greatest weaknesses are and whether any of them are shored up by the witness list we've seen today? >> yes. it's not unusual for cooperators in prominent criminal cases to have a sordid past, their own criminal history, maybe lied to prosecutors and now have seen the light and start lying once they start working with the government and are on the right path ideally. michael cohen has lied to every branch of the federal government the last few years. he lied to justice department prosecutors when he asked for a break after pleading guilty in the southern district of new york. he lied to congress and admitted and pled guilty to that and lied to at least one judge, probably the judge who took his guilty plea on the tax charges in 2018 because he has

since claimed he pled guilty under duress and didn't commit those crimes. that's a lot of lying for someone who is going to be a key witness. cohen also has a couple other elements of sort of unusual baggage. he has a media career that he has constructed off the back of his connection to donald trump and, frankly, his vendetta against donald trump. both those things will be issues for his credibility i'm sure trump's lawyers will i bring out. lisa is exactly right. the other wiesses on this list could be quite significant. i'm sure the d.a.'s office will look to them to try to shore up cohen's testimony, corroborate it or plug in gaps. the most obvious just with the assistant lisa was talking about is she may have been around conversations in which she could have overheard trump talking about his knowledge of the scheme, his motive, that sort of thing. i don't want to speculate too far, but that's sort of what we're seeing with this witness list, the d.a.'s office putting people on the board who might

fill in pieces of evidence other people might not be able to do so well. >> plugging the holes, lisa. >> when ankush was talking about the assistant, it reminded me in the statement of facts of the company's indictment, there is a single paragraph that jumps out every time i read it. in 2017 cohen and trump allegedly met in the oval office to cement this repayment scheme. i have been thinking to myself for months who is going to corroborate that if michael cohen is a problematic witness as ankush just postulated? who is going to be that person? we now have one possibility ied many, madeline westerhaut. >> as much as it seems quite evident that d.a. bragg spent quite a bit of time trying to shore up potential weaknesses, you point out in your piece today that trump's

lawyers could pursue a sort of -- is it novel? -- a different strategy for trying to effectively lower the sentence by going only for a misdemeanor charge, effectively admitting guilt to take the felony off the table. can you explain that theory more fully? >> it's an unorthodox theory i'm sure to most people hearing it. essentially anytime there is a charged offense that is a high level felony offense with a lesser included offense in it, so in this case the misdemeanor is falsifying business records and it has been escalated to a felony through the allegation that the falsification of the records was done to aid or conceal another crime. so what defendants in these kinds of odd situations can do, if they are concerned that the jury may be reluctant to acquit the defendant, they may have

concerns about the strength of the case, they can ask the judge in new york before the case goes to the jury to instruct the jurors they can convict the defendant on the misdemeanor offenses rather than top offenses. the benefit of doing that for a criminal defendant is to avoid a situation where the jurors are just stuck with the strongest option and are forced to effectively convict on the felony -- forced i'm putting in quotes, that would be the way the defendant would see it -- instead give them a compromise option, misdemeanors in this instance. >> lisa, what do you think of the likelihood of that and i guess secondarily, how much pressure -- i think it's been frustrating and confusing to people bragg has not outlined what the stepped up charge would be. >> he's outlined three possibilities and has not settled on any of them. it's not clear to me at trial he will settle on any of them, but rather present the jury

with options meaning you can believe donald trump had the intent to commit or conceal any of these three crimes. choose your own adventure, jury. that's enough to convict him. >> as strategy, is that sound? we are talking about a former president going from misdemeanor to felony. this is a serious thing to say it could be one of these three things? is that a better or riskier strategy than just settling and saying this is what he's guilty of and why it's a felony? >> i think it's both a novel and risky strategy but allows for some disagreement within the jury where you otherwise have to have unanimity. there doesn't have to necessarily be a meeting of the minds among these two jurors as to what crime donald trump was attempting to conceal or commit. it's enough that they believe he engaged in the falsifying of business records with the intent to commit or conceal a crime. so the fact they've identified three it could be might be all the better for them as opposed

to pinpointing one. >> ankush, you have reporting trump's legal team is actually considering this, right? >> yeah, they have been actively considering and have through the close of the case to consider it. the advantages are quite obvious. it's a lesser charge. it would be easier for him to spin as a victor at least not a loss. it could reshape some of the political dynamics around at least this case, but it would require him to do something he's not particularly good at doing, which is to be humble and to prepare to sort of take one on the chin. this is someone who guards his ego closely and does not like to admit defeat. that i think would be the principal challenge. in the ordinary circumstance this would be the smart thing for a criminal defendant to do, which is why it's no surprise to me, frankly, trump's lawyers have been considering it. >> i'm going to make a prediction even if he goes that route, he's not going to take it on the chin or admit defeat.

he will say he's been absolved. he'll do what he usually does, which is lie. that's my prediction, if he goes that right. thank you both for your wisdom and expertise. coming up, the right wing's stunning incoherence as it begins to fully grasp the repercussions of its attack on abortion rights. congresswoman pramila jayapal joins me with that later. but first with trump's takeover of the rnc complete and his daughter-in-law in charge the organization wasting no time in spamming households across the country with lies about fraud in the 2024 election coming up right after the break.

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giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. it going to be the position of the rnc in 2024 that the 2020 election was not fairly decided or it was stolen somehow? >> i think we're past that.

i think that's in the past. >> that was lara trump, donald trump's daughter-in-law, insisting as far as she's concerned the big lie about 2020 election fraud is in the past which makes it strange, then, that the rnc would send out nearly 150,000 robocalls on lara trump's behalf falsely claiming there was mass election fraud in the 2020 election fraud. here's the robocall. >> i'm sure you agree with co- chair trump that we cannot allow the chaos and questions of the 2020 election to ever happen again. if democrats have their way, your vote could be canceled out by someone who isn't even an american citizen. >> that certainly doesn't sound like an organization trying to leave 2020 in the past. that sounds like trump's election lies institutionally

legitimized by the republican party. speaking of which, speaker of the house mike johnson will head to mar-a-lago for a press conference with former president trump all about election integrity. joining me now is tim miller, writer and former spokesman for the republican national committee. i wonder as a former rnc official where it sort of makes you feel when you hear these robocalls that basically suggests the institutional stamp of approval on 2020 and 2024 are big lies. >> yeah. a couple things. first i should say on the facts people that aren't citizens can't vote. in addition to the 2020 lies, they're offering a patent lie about 2024 to try to raise money and trick old people. i wrote about this a little bit in my book. i hate to do the book plug thing, but this was exactly relevant to it, which was i was

in charge of approving the mail and email that would go out on behalf of the communications department and even back then i remember looking back and the sorts of mailers, they're always, you know, some bit of hyperbole, some exaggeration. the language is more aggressive. you're trying to get people to give money. there were times where i would try to edit it and tone it down and the powers that be would say okay, unless you think cnn is going to get this and embarrass us, we're going to go with it because it will help us raise money. i have a really big flashback to that seeing a news outlet get in and call them on their lies, which is something they deserve. i think the types of stuff we were doing back in the obama era, i look back on with some regret it was kind of standard political exaggeration. this is a total fabrication

about our democracy being a fraud and like we've already seen the ramifications of a lie that scale in the storming of the capitol. that is the part that was so enraging. >> well, i think in retrospect we may have -- it may feel like the republican edifice institution crumbled in the wake of trump's big lie. leading up to the election they weren't as on board as they are now. it's not just the rnc. it's the speaker of the house who is going down to meet with trump to talk about election integrity, the same speaker of the house who was instrumental in getting house members to sign onto an amicus brief in the 2020 election that was full of lies. the intention was to disenfranchise the votes of four swing states and turn the election to donald trump. do you -- i mean how alarmed are you by the fact johnson's going down to mar-a-lago and the subject of their presser is

"election integrity?." >> extremely alarming. it's a carbon copy of what kevin mccarthy did after january 6th. liz cheney writes about this in her book where there was maybe a small moment where there was some momentum for impeachment and trying to move on from trump and kevin mccarthy totally blunted that when he went down to mar-a-lago and then rick scott a few days later gave trump some award, fake award they made up down at mar-a-lago. it's the same thing. these people have learned nothing and it's true for the mike johnson press conference tomorrow, and it's continuing to radicalize people. i remember in that period between november and january 6th there were two things to me that were really alarming. one was watching maga media like news max and real america's voice, the far right stuff, and how apocalyptic they

were about the election fraud and the other was getting my text messages and emails from the rnc in front of these candidates and from trump reading all that stuff going man, if people really believe this, what are they going to do? we saw what they were going to do. there are real life ramifications to this. it's not like you're sending out a voicemail and nothing happens. words have consequences. >> they have consequences for our democracy. it's kind of the fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. i can understand trump may have been able to convince some section of his supporters that the election was stolen in 2020, but they seem to be laying the ground work as a failsafe for the notions 2024 will have been stolen, too, by illegal voters. why would people believe that two times in a row? do people not just catch onto the absurdity at some point? >> why do people believe it

now? why do people believe kari lake? i was kind of encouraged this is not -- this is like the lowest of all bars -- there was no storming of the state capitol in arizona after kari lake's loss. even the protests were kind of muted. i was down there following the aftermath. that was encouraging. maybe there's some signs there won't be the same level of enthusiasm for the lies, but donald trump needs the lies because it's central to his whole persona that he can't be a loser and the voters have gone along with this because they can't admit they've been conned. there's this symbiotic necessity to continue with this kind of phoney nonsense. that's why it continues. >> i don't know, tim. we'll see what happens, but, man, all signs do not point in the right direction as far as robocalls and institutional signoff on this go. thank you for your time, my friend. still ahead this evening,

the arizona supreme court's decision to reinstate a 19th century abortion ban is all about the will of the people. at least that's what donald trump is saying. conservatives everywhere are scrambling to explain away this latest anti-democratic affront before it ruins them at the ballot box. will it work? i'll talk to congresswoman with pramila jayapal coming up next. . at three in the morning. any time of the day. what pn't know is that not all dirt is the same. you need dirt with the right kind of nutrients. look at this new organic soil from miracle-gro. everybody should have it. it worked great for us. this is as good as gold in any garden. if people only knew that it really is about the dirt. you're a dirt nerd. huge dirt nerd. i'm proud of it! [ryan laughs] lakesha: childhood cancer is-- it's a long road. it's hard. but st. jude has gotten us through it.

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so i'm totally confused. what happened in arizona today? what is this? >> steve, it's really funny because just today the arizona court of appeals -- >> hang on. hang on. arizona was made a state in 1910, '11. when did arizona become a state? >> 1912. >> 1912. the territorial ban is from 1864? >> that's correct. >> hold on, hold on. what? what happened in arizona? that question was top of mind for most americans this week, including trump whisperer steve bannon, yes, that steve bannon, that guy, appeared just as confused as the rest of us about the arizona supreme court's decision to uphold a civil war era abortion ban, something that conservative court was only able to do because donald trump's hand

picked supreme court justices overturned the constitutional right to an abortion two years ago. nevertheless bannon posed the question. conservatives have had a really hard time answering it. fox news thinks the democrats are really at fault here. >> and you know what? arizona's governor is a democrat. the state's attorney general is a democrat. the state legislature is almost evenly divided. if democrats, you want to get rid of the law, you have a chance now to get rid of it and i would advise you get rid of it. >> get rid of it, democrats. democrats in arizona already tried to do that twice this year well before this week's ruling and the republican majority shut them down. then yesterday when arizona democrats tried once more to repeal the 1864 abortion ban, who stood

in their way? republicans again. so republicans are sort of saying one thing and mostly doing another here, rendering their position on all of this largely incoherent. just yesterday donald trump touted the end of roe v. wade but seemingly opened the door to voter-led initiatives to enshrine abortion access in state constitutions. >> the will of the people. this is what i've been saying. it's a perfect system. so for 52 years people have wanted to end roe v. wade to get it back to the states. we did that. it was an incredible thing, incredible achievement. we did that and now the states have it and the states are putting out what they want. it's the will of the people. >> we'll talk about that now with congressman pramila jayapal, democrat from the great state of washington and chair of the progressive caucus. we've got a lot to talk about. do you think republicans, conservatives can just say the phrase will of the people, will of the people enough times at such a volume people forget about the actions they've

actually taken to get this outcome? >> hey, great to be with you. no, i don't think they can do that. i think what you're seeing is the mess, the pig stye, they've gotten themselves into because here's the thing. everybody knows because donald trump bragged about it and will continue to brag about it that he is the one who "proudly" takes responsibility for ending roe. he has said that. he has endorsed a nationwide abortion ban. the maga republicans in the house put a nationwide abortion ban into the study conference bill that is supported by 100% of republican leadership and 80% of the republican conference. so i think that what you have to understand here is that the reason they're doing all these machinations and run around in

circles is because they know they are losing on this issue. they know republicans, democrats, and independents across the country want to preserve the ability for a pregnant person to make choices about their own bodies and what the states are doing now, florida, arizona, 25 million people, one in three women of reproductive age, live in states that have either banned abortion or partially and severely restricted or banned abortion. they know this is deeply unpopular and donald trump is the one who made it happen. i think they can run around, say whatever they want, but the reality is we need to keep showing that clip of exactly as you did of donald trump and other republicans saying they were the ones who ended roe v. wade and they are the ones who have caused this tremendous chaos and real pain for

millions of women across this country who now not only don't have the right to abortion, but also the republicans are really about eliminating all reproductive healthcare for women as you saw with the ivf decision. contraception is also very much a part of their plan and i think that they understand what a mess they're in now because this is not popular. it is not right. it is not popular. >> it's also ironic that all of a sudden the republican party is now heralding how important it is to have the will of the people decide matters of great state level import like abortion, reproductive freedom. by embracing, i don't know, democracy it forecloses the sort of mechanisms by which they've stayed in power which

is legislative chicanney and i wonder if that has dawned on republicans as their leaders get behind the will of the people. >> you're trying to be logical about this as if they should all actually do what they say and say what they do. they have no consistency at all. they flip positions on a dime because they're a cult of donald trump. whatever donald trump says or believes one day is what the entire republican party then starts to parrot. they have no interest in democracy. if they did, they would not block the passage of the john lewis voting rights act. they would not go into states and fundamentally restrict the rights of americans to be at the polls and vote, but that is what they've done over and over again. i don't necessarily think we should even get distracted by that because abortion is the

issue. women are the issue here and what we know is that what they're doing is deeply unpopular. the chaos they've thrown the country into with the maga supreme court, with donald trump proudly pushing and claiming responsibility for ending roe, that is really the thing that we're dealing with now and i think that the -- we will once again show that the will of the people will be on the ballot with the arizona abortion rights amendment. other states across the country that are putting this on the ballot and i do believe it will turn out a tremendous number of people and we will codify those laws in states, but we just have to be clear if donald trump gets back in, if republicans keep control of the house and senate, they will continue to push forward a nationwide abortion ban because that's what they've always wanted whether they say it now or not. >> do you think this issue is the whole ballgame in the 2024 election? >> i think it's a major piece

of the ballgame, absolutely. we are getting ready at the progressive caucus to roll out what we call or proposition agenda. i hope i can come back on when we roll it out. that is also important, lowering costs, raising wages for americans so they don't feel the squeeze, so they feel like government is on their side. deal with housing and child care are a big part of it, but certainly abortion is going to be a major factor, but republicans know they are on the wrong side of it. thank you, donald trump, for causing all of this chaos for millions of women across the country. >> you have a standing invitation to talk with us. thanks for your time. >> thank you. new polling from the "wall street journal" shows president biden losing support from one of his core constituencies, black voters. what could be driving them to donald trump? that's ahead.

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voices of people with cidp: cidp disrupts. cidp derails. let's be honest... all: cidp sucks! voices of people with cidp: but living with cidp doesn't have to. when you sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com, you'll find inspiration in real patient stories, helpful tips, reliable information, and more. cidp can be tough. but finding hope just got a little easier. sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com. all: be heard. be hopeful. be you. we are a little less than seven months away from election day and this is apparently a thing now. trump supporters using artificial intelligence to generate pictures of trump surrounded by black supporters. i suppose manifesting the close relationship they would like trump to have with the black community. meanwhile trump himself is trying to make inroads with the black voters in the most

awkward way possible like telling a roomful of black conservatives in south carolina that black people are embracing trump because of his mugshot. yet despite the transparently awful strategies here, it appears trump support among the black electorate may actually be growing. a new "wall street journal" poll finds 11% of black women in swing states said they are either definitely or probably going to vote for donald trump. that is compared to 6% of black women nationwide who said they would vote for trump according to a survey from the a.p. in 2020. meanwhile 30% of black men in swing states say they will vote for trump in the upcoming election compared to the 12% nationwide in that 2020 a.p. survey. remember, in 2020 donald trump won just 8% of black voters overall again according to that same survey. so the uptick in support here in crucial swing states could be meaningful in what is expected to be a tight, tight

race. for their recent special black men in america, the road to 2024, my msnbc colleagues talked to black men about why some of them might choose trump. take a listen. take a listen. >> you call it logic. you know where i'm going. >> i know where you're going. >> about saying that you would support trump. do you still feel that way? >> i learned a lot that day, but honestly, that just come from frustration about things not being right in my community and wanting to try it a different way. you know what i'm saying? what i learned, i'm not a political person. i'm just boots on the ground in the city every day and it's very few changes that reach down that trickle down in our community. i got a lot of flack back from this, but i did realize a lot of black people voted trump. they just don't put it out there like i did. >> we'll talk about what a shift in black support for donald trump could portend in november with charles coleman right after this break.

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the only thing i have heard people say in a conversation when it comes to him is that at least you know what his agenda is because he tells you. that's what it is. and you know, like, they say the devil you know is better than the one you don't. i never voted for him but at the same time i have heard the conversations. >> that was gz earlier this year speaking candidly to cohost of the msnbc news special. black men in america, the road to 2024. and his message is a warning to democrats. one that shows trump eating into biden's support with black men and black women. joining me now is charles

coleman. e now is charles charles, thank you for being here. we thought who can make sense of this. 30% of black males in swing states interested in donald trump. what do you make of that? >> i think it is important we can contextualize the numbers. at the end of the day, white america can and will determine the outcome of this election. the critical demographics will be very important for joe biden to seize upon if he wants to be reelected because he is having trouble elsewhere. if you are talking about black men, there are two main reasons why the message is not landing. the first one is there is not an acknowledgment or investment in saying look, we know we have failed in a lot of regards and we have a lot of work to do. often times the messages that

are crafted look forward without acknowledgment of where we are or what is missing. that is something most black men are having a problem connecting to. another failure the biden administration is doing is the notion of trying to sell the preservation of democracy. if you are a group for whom democracy has not actually worked or protected you, then losing it without discussing what will be different in its preservation does not matter to you in the same way. so the issue when you are looking at the numbers is not necessarily black voters going to donald trump. it is black voters who decide i'm going to stay home. >> that is interesting. and when you talk about the kind of existential threats, the democratic project laying in tatters, do you think the explicit white nationalism is not enough of a motivator for the same black men you were talking about who may be less inclined to be energized by the

broader proposal around democracy? the message around white nationalism resonates but it is important to understand if you are someone who has been many america and voted for the democratic party for generations and have not seen substantiative changes take place in your community, you don't necessarily feel the biggest difference in curb side bigotry and systemic oppression. it all seems bad to you. and i think for one of the reasons joe biden's message is not landing as squarely as he wants it to, is because you are too afraid to acknowledge that or speak on it and speak plainly about it to the audience that wants to hear it. they are open to listening. what are you going to do that will be different for me? >> i remember from my days out on the campaign trail in the 2020 election. speaking to voters in south

carolina, there was a massive generational divide between older and younger black voters and i wonder how much is representative of that. the older black voters are like yeah, we are not getting the attention, we are not getting the policy we need and deserve but we are real about the stakes here and what trump administration would mean for us. and the country on a whole. >> we are dealing with a boy who cried wolf situation. if you think back to mitt romney, the conversation then, or george bush, the conversation was the sky is falling and this is the important election of your lifetime. we got through george bush. for many people's perspectives whether the indexes or the measurements actually support this, a position that most people feel like is still disadvantageous. it is not resonating in the same way. people are saying you guys did this for generations and it didn't work. so we are at least open to

trying something different. and that is a big part of the generational divide. >> the report says black women, the bedrock of the democratic coalition in many ways, some of the most reliable voters for democrats are really interested in third party candidates. that goes to exactly what you were saying is it is not necessarily going for trump, staying home that is his benefit. or being curious about some of these alternate candidates. can you talk to that a little bit? is anybody interesting in communities of color? >> in the black community and black men, there is a thirst for another option. the people are very interested in this other option or if there could be another option, even if it is not viable to win, to send a message, you need to court me. one of the things that has been a huge mistake. is this motion of trying to shame or scare black men by the

saying of you are going to go support donald trump. >> you are handing the election to trump. >> here is the reality, whether we like it, whether we agree with it. acting as though this conversation isn't taking place being mad about it or in denial without addressing the reasons why will lead to failure so we have to come to grips about whether we like it or not. whether it is factually based or founded in reality is not the issue. the issue is that this sentiment is very real among the people who you need to turn out and you have to figure out a way to address it. >> people who feel unseen should not be scapegoated. they need to be spoken to. charles, it is great to see you onset. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o con dell. >> we will hear at the end of the hour