abortion doctors licensed quickly in california to care for their patients in california. just think about that. how in the world did we get here? >> the other thing that was leavell -- legal in 1864 was slavery. what you just described is an underground railroad that women in the modern era must use to get base of healthcare. god help us. women were essentially chattel in the 19th century. i think there were a lot of men that would love to go back to that era. that's what they mean when they say make america great again. attorney general kris mayes, thank you for what you have done for the people of arizona. that is it for the reidout. all in with chris hayes is now. tonight on all in. >> the president wrote a check as payment for hush money to

finance campaign laws. >> a witness list for the trial of donald trump. >> he said something to the effect of, don't worry. your january and february reimbursement checks will come in. >> the witness list we could see including a few surprises including the dystopic it origins of arizona's new abortion law as republican panic sets in. >> the only issue they think they have this on abortion. all i say is, the states are handling it. looking back at one of the most important cultural moments in the 20th century after the death of o.j. simpson. >> we the jury in the above entitled action finally -- finds the accused or and thought james the system -- simpson not guilty. >> all in starts now. good evening from new york.

i'm chris hayes. donald trump's criminal trial for allegedly paying hush money to an adult film star scheduled to begin at 9:30 a.m. in manhattan this coming monday morning. it has taken some years to get to this point. the money was paid to stormy daniels in the fall of 2016 right before the election. eight years later trump might actually be held accountable for his misdeeds. there is all social media, i'd like to see donnie trump wriggle his way out of this jam and then he wriggles out of it. that is almost 8 years old. eight years later he is still wriggling. not with as much success as he used to. three times this week his lawyers asked the court to delay the start of the trial. on monday a judge said no. on tuesday another judge said no. on wednesday another judge said

no. today and a clear sign this may be happening we obtained a list of potential trial witnesses for the prosecution that is sure to give the former president some hot step. first is stormy daniels that alleges cease -- she slept with mr. trump and said she was paid off to stay quiet about the affair just weeks before the 2016 election. >> my friend was like, you might actually have a problem. i don't want to scare you but based on the things you've told me, now you are the whole republican party problem. they like to make their problems go away. >> we could also hear from karen mcdougal, the former playmate that also alleges an affair with donald trump and alleges she was also paid off in 2016. >> why do you think it was that it was after donald trump was the republican nominee that

they came back? >> they wanted to squash the story. >> both of the payoffs were negotiated by celebrity lawyer keith davidson. he said he has already turned over 1500 pages of evidence to investigators and could also testify. as could dylan howard the former editor-in-chief from the national enquirer and more importantly his boss. that would be david packer on the right of the screen. they act as his eyes and ears for the story. they paid mcdougal a six-figure sum to the rights of her story so they could quietly bury it. a so-called catch and kill tactic. there is also trump hicks former aide that participated in phone calls around the time of the payoff. she could testify along with several other trump organization and white house officials. the star witness maybe is one time fixer, michael cohen.

is of it he pleaded guilty and served jail time for what he did in this case. he said he set up the operation using his own money. he is champing at the bit to testify as he told jen psaki last month. >> he should be worried about me. he should be worried about the prosecutors and documentary evidence and all of the witnesses that are going to be coming into that trial, simply because as others have also appropriately put it, this is a very simple case. >> if you are wondering what he is talking about that he could testify about, we know. he laid it out in simple terms under out before the house oversight committee way back in 2019. >> picture this scene. in february 2017, one month into his presidency i am visiting president trump in the

oval office for the first time. it is truly awe-inspiring. he is showing me all around and pointing to different paintings . he says to me something to the effect of, don't worry. your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. they were fed next from new york and it takes a while for that to get through the white house system. as he promised, i received the first check for the reimbursement of $70,000 not long thereafter. the president of the united states thus wrote a personal check for the payment of hush money as part of a criminal scheme to violate campaign finance laws. >> as cohen said it is a simple case. you wanted to be president and wanted to bury negative stories that could hurt his campaign.

now he is ready to testify against him. donna perry is currently representing michael cohen in the hush money trial. diane is a retired judge and prosecutor at the das office. they both join me. it's gray tabby. diane, you served as a judge 25 years on the same bench that judge merchan is. so with this increasingly ridiculous hair mailings -- hail marys do you think this will happen? >> i think the case will go forward. i think all the rabbits are out of the hat at this point. i think jury selection will begin, a group of citizens of new york county will be brought into the room and the questioning will begin.

>> there is nothing quite like this. this is in a category of its own. i wonder if you have insight into managing both the jury selection process with such a well-known case which prevents -- presents complications and with this particularly litigious individual with the resources to do the kind of badgering lawyering that donald trump is known for. >> esther trump is in a category all his own but i did preside over the anna delvi fraud case. that was a huge media event. there were wall-to-wall cameras every day and it puts a lot of pressure on the judge. the concern is you do not want to have any demeanor that is any different than it would be if there are four people sitting in that room. the concern is also that you want to get it right and be fair and impartial.

that is a lot on your plate when you are in that situation. >> i know you can't speak about the specifics of this case. today we got the witness list. i think it is about what we would expect from the witnesses. one of the things that strikes me about this because of what has been reported and established, it does not strike me that the facts are that contested right here. >> you are asking me to speak about it, but i will say generally speaking, when the witness comes out in advance of a trial, the defense has an opportunity to see. they already know because they have gotten them in -- the discovery materials and they have already formulated their defense. i do not think, i imagine for the defense in any event as they go into trial there are any surprises. i will not talk

about here, but you were talking about delay tactics and generally defense lawyers have a lot of tools in their kit for how to delay. even as jury selection begins. in any case you would have -- in a class c felony the defense and prosecution will each have 10 challenges for cause and then they have any number of preemptory's. that can take a very long time. >> i said the exact opposite. >> they have 10 for no reason and some for cause. for cause any judge will allow both the defense and prosecution to ask questions.

i'm sure you know judges have different temperaments and tolerance for how much they will allow. i don't know if you gave a particular amount of time. >> how would you imagine the timeline is? >> normally you give each side a limit for how much time they could have to ask questions. for example -- >> you have to look at that. i would say each side gets 15 minutes but i also used to say, if you are getting to 14 minutes and you have really important questions just asked me and i will be liberal about extending the time. >> what would you imagine would be a reasonable timeline for the process that will play out starting monday? i would say 15 to 20 minutes each side.

i think everybody is underestimating this. i think it will take a long time. it can take weeks. remember, in federal court the judge handles the questioning of the jurors. that tends to limit and focus it. in state court the lawyers ask with the judge overseeing it. one thing that judge merchan is doing, anybody that says they can't be fair and impartial he will say there's the door. >> that is a little bit different than normal. normally -- i've had jury duty in brooklyn -- they don't want to let you go because a lot of people have a lot of stuff going on and don't want to do it. generally you are being compelled to be there unless you have a really good reason.

>> any trial i have ever seen the judge takes great pains to keep jurors in their seats. they will sometimes almost cross-examine them and say, you can be fair. right? there is also the domino effect. wants a number of jurors are out other people are raising their hands and saying i'm not sure i can be impartial. the federal system they tend to be very strict early on. >> so jury selection could go two or three weeks. given the witness list and the complexity of the case how do you can see this in your head for the expectation of helen the trial is? >> a month, five weeks. once the trial gets rolling he gets rolling. the witnesses will be ready to go. it will run smoothly. i think jury selection will be the most difficult part of the case. >> are you confident that given

the fact that it is unprecedented, there is a whole set of factors we have not dealt with, are you confident the system could do it? all of the functional parts of it. the basic jury and the peers and jury selection and treating this like any other trial, that essentially a fair trial can be achieved? >> absolutely. without any doubt. this is what we are made for. now is the time to see it. >> i imagine you have also navigated cases of higher and lower degrees of public intensity. talking about the o.j. simpson trial later which was televised and added a whole different wrinkle which i think is probably for the best it's not happening here. as a judge you probably feel that way? >> no. i always allowed kalmar is in the courtroom. -- cameras in the courtroom. i was a journalist before i

went to law school. >> that is fascinating. what is your sense to that same question of the ability of the system to function to be brought to bear? >> the system holds up. when you have a judge who strives to be fair and judge things down the middle you have a sophisticated defense and a sophisticated prosecution. you have a fair voir dire, generally the system holds. >> that will be a test. we will see if it happens this monday. thank you very much. coming up, did you know the man responsible for the arizona abortion law was a known, and i quote here, pursuer of nubile young females. the truly unbelievable story of the predatory lawmaker whose abortion band just came back to the future. that is next. next. what about africa?

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it has been almost 2 years since the supreme court erased the constitutional right to abortion. that decision turned back the clock nearly half a century. history itself was the reason the majority of the court gave for taking away american women's reproductive freedom. in the majority opinion conservative justice samuel

alito wrote , the provision that is been held to guarantee some rights are not mentioned in the constitution but any such right must be deeply rooted in this nation's history and tradition. the right to abortion does not fall within this category. until the latter part of the 20th century such a right was entirely unknown in american law. basically according to samuel alito and the conservative majority and the logic is that abortion and other rights cannot be a constitutional right because it's not found deep in the tradition and history in our nation. a lot of people responded to that decision by saying that the implications of the plaintext and jurisprudence that follows on what we were or were not doing hundreds of years ago is itself a completely ludicrous methodology. of course, the reality is that

the history and tradition of this country is patriarchy and white supremacy. the methodology adopted by samuel alito on the right, is that we are going to let the past dictate the present in this really binding way. specifically, the white men who held power in the distant past. the men who made up the tradition of our history. that is exactly what we are seeing in arizona. it's not an accident or a fluke. it is the logic and play where the state supreme court just revived a near-total abortion ban from 1864, when lincoln was president. this is the code of law adopted by the very first arizona territorial legislature 160 years ago. yes territorial because arizona would not become estate for nearly 50 more years.

named for the judge and principal author, the man you see on the left, the howell code formalize the laws governing all the territory. the population less than 10,000 picket established crimes such as excusable homicide without misadventure which could be a man at work with and ask and it kills an innocent bystander. it contains multiple sections relating to tools. for example setting the punishment 1 to 3 years in prison for anyone that would knowingly carry any written challenge or shall be present at the fighting of any dual. it also defines the crime of rape as, listen closely. a person the age 14 and upward that shall have carnal knowledge of anyone under the age of 10 years with or without consent. so 10 was the cut off for

consent. rolling it was a crime to administer or cause to be administered or taken any medicinal substances with the intention to procure the miscarriage of any woman. that part will be the law of the land in arizona once again. of course, this was not only his doing. these were the project of the entire arizona territorial government including, crucially, the man running the state legislature got the territory legislature. the speaker of the house. a man by the name of william claude jones. a 1990 article describes him as a product you are poet, politician, pursuer of nubile females, member of the royal privy council, speaker of spanish, a proponent of southern secession, partisan of the union. he was a serial child rapist. he won appointment for the

territory leaving behind his wife and two children in missouri. a few years later his wife obtained a divorce and he married a very young mexican girl. the new mexico delegate in washington declared the bride was 12 years old and he had abducted her. the delegate as the president of the united states to fire him for the moral lapse. jones anticipated the charge and written his resignation. that marriage lasted two years. need to take more he was elected speaker of the house in the arizona territorial legislature. three days after the legislative session where the howell code was approved, he married a woman named caroline stevens. she was 15 years old.

he was approximately 50. less than six months later he left his child bride pictured here with her second husband. he probably left for california followed by hawaii. in february 1868 he won election to the kingdom morehouse. 14-year-old girl, reportedly a princess from a noble family, was pregnant with his child during the time of the election. they went on to have several more children. he married his fifth and final wife just four months later. he filed for divorce in 1883 charging her with numerous flagrant acts of adultery. he died within six months. he spent his life wielding his power over women and girls and their bodies. he face no consequences except he once lost a job for the 12- year-old he abducted and raped.

that is the kind of history and tradition that samuel alito have brought back to the united states. it is the very logic of this court. it is the point of the decision in dobbs. it is the point of the arizona supreme court ruling this week. in 2024 william claude jones gets to control the body of women and girls in the state of arizona. are you tired of your hair breaking after waiting years for it to grow? new pantene with more pro-vitamins, plus biotin & collagen. repairs as well as the leading luxury bonding brand. stronger, healthier hair, without the $60 price tag. if you know, you know it's pantene.

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>> people forget, fighting roe v wade was all about bringing it back to the states. it wasn't about anything else. that's what it was. we brought it back to the states and now lots of things are happening and lots of good things are happening. now all i say is, the states are having to lean it and it has totally killed that issue. we will take care of everything. we will make our country great again. everybody's going to be happy. >> totally killed the issue. have you noticed how killed the issue is? he is convinced he can talk his way out of the abortion jim by spouting talking points as if they are magic words. every time they talk about the issue they are establishing in people's minds the truth that it really was donald trump that made the overturning of roe v wade inevitable. everything that flows from that

is his doing. case in point, kari lake, a candidate for senate in arizona, two years ago she praised the abortion ban we just talked about that got reinstated. she tried to reverse course with the video that simultaneously tries to hide her position and praise the man who got rid of roe v wade. >> the issue is less about banning abortion and more about saving babies. i agree with president trump. i agree with president trump. a full ban on abortion is not where the people are. the issue is less about banning abortion and more about saving babies. i'm so honored to call president trump a friend. he did so much to help save babies. bringing down the unconstitutional roe v wade. >> joining me now is senator tammy duckworth from illinois. do you think republicans have change their minds on this because of the polling, do you

think they are trying to obscure the real view of this? which do you think is closer to the truth? >> they are trying to obscure the real view on this. they have been fighting very hard to battle abortion and breakdown roe v wade for all of these years. many of them never realized what it would mean for very popular procedures like in vitro fertilization and what it meant for contraception like iud. they are the dog that caught the bumper, was chasing after the car and finally caught it. now they are like, holy cow this is not what we want. we have floridians living under a six week abortion ban. in alabama a fertilized egg is a human being. in louisiana you cannot discard fertilized eggs. what does that mean for ivf? they are scrambling and saying whatever they need to to try to cover themselves because they find themselves in a nonviable

position. >> so something happened yesterday that remind me of something that happened with you and the senate. after this happens, the supreme court finds that the 1864 law controls. there is a lot of outrage. democrats in both houses say let's just right now override this. let's say this law is not getting on the books and they are stopped by republicans. something similar happened with ivf. after that alabama decision people are freaked out about the possibility of ivf. it was temporarily banned. you can say, we have a bill to protect ivf and what happened then? >> they objected. i asked for unanimous consent to pass my rights to assistive technology act and they objected. you know what they said they objected for, it was because my bill would have the potential

for creating human animal hybrid babies. [laughter] let me make it clear this is all on the republicans. in alabama, by the way they have not restored ivf. all they said in alabama is, yes, a fertilized egg is a human being. we just won't prosecute you. it is still potentially manslaughter. we are just choosing not to prosecute you. that's what they did with the law. that does not solve the problem. they define a fertilized egg is having more rights than the woman that will carry the egg that is a human being, is fundamentally at odds with procedures like ivf where you have to discard eggs that are not viable. otherwise it can cause a miscarriage. >> to that point, one of the reasons we are seeing this is the central tenet, the real belief that life begins at conception. they have been saying that. we have been listening to this.

you can't make this up. i've heard it 1 million times in my life. if you believe this as many people genuinely do. many people were in the antiabortion movement or the life blood of the republican base, then you can't let embryos be discarded. you can't let people secure abortions at 10 or 12 weeks. you cannot do it. it is murder. they really believe that and now they seem trapped by that genuinely help belief and the fact that the politics are unworkable. >> it is unworkable so what you're seeing is already happening across the country. you have a patchwork of laws and legislation that is 160 years old, in arizona, but you also have healthcare professionals sleeping those states and coming to states like mine that welcome and protect a woman's reproductive healthcare. this is not just about women. this is also about men being fathers.

in the military we have high in fertility rates among men. i started working on this in part because of the veterans from afghanistan that stepped on landmines and kid no longer father their own children and need ivf. now i tell military men and women, sorry, if you live in one of these states you cannot have children. you can't start a family after you defended our nation. it is a patchwork. he states lose healthcare providers. the women in these states will find themselves -- it's not just about abortion. it's about having an ob/gyn that is afraid to practice because they could be charged with manslaughter just doing their job. >> there are criminal penalties in the 1864 law that will become the law of the land in the next few months. that will be the controlling law in the state of arizona. senator tammy duckworth, thank you. >> thank you. still to come on the eve of donald trump's hush money trial a look back 30 years to the

last trial of the century. joy read joins me with the lasting effects of the last trial of the century. century. well, good luck with that. earn big with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee.

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and i'm goin' cuckoo. hmm. you may be a legend on the court but you're an amateur up here. so get allstate... save money and be protected from mayhem... ...like me. o.j. simpson has died at the age of 76. the running backs career was overshadowed by his infamous murder trial which will likely go down as one of the most seismic pop-culture events in american history. despite overwhelming evidence indicating that he was guilty of the brutal double homicide, including a long history of

abusing and absolutely terrorizing his ex-wife nicole brown simpson he was acquitted of charges he murdered her as well as her equipments ronald goldman. he was later found civilly liable for both of their deaths. anyone who lived through this moment in history has it from a locked in your memory. even for folks that did not experience the trial first and there are so many moment that remain indelible in the public consciousness. the most infamous the low-speed car chase on the day he was supposed to turn himself in as a suspect in the double murder. an event of such massive public interest that nbc took the step of interrupting game five of the tied nba finals to show. >> hello, everyone. i'm bob costas. it's our professional obligation to cover the ballgame today. we will do that and what we hope is an appropriate fashion. we are mindful of the o.j. simpson situation and will apprise you of any new developments. >> they did more than that.

what happened was that. producers put the basketball game in the tiny box so they could take the bar -- bronco chase and the full-screen. equally as indelible was the moment when simpson at the request of prosecution tried on one of the gloves at the crime scene during the televised trial. it was covered in blood. only to theatrically mime it did not fit. that was widely seen as the beginning of the end for the prosecution culminating with this iconic line that johnnie cochran delivered during closing remarks. >> o.j. simpson and a knit cap from two blocks away is still o.j. simpson. its notice of guys. it is no disguise. it makes no sense. it does not fit. if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. >> the case generated such unprecedented public interest for a bunch of reasons. was at the intersection of american history and culture, race, violence, the criminal

justice system. this shaped the story that depending on where you start the role of david and goliath would switch places. was simpson the goliath because he could afford the absolute best legal representation of the country? a wealthy man with a history of violence and psychological abuse against nicole brown simpson before her murder. or was he the david, the underdog, because he was a black man caught in the crosshairs of the races and corrupt los angeles police department just a few years after the beating of rodney king and the acquittal of the cops that were caught on tape beating him. that inherent conflict spawning massive public opinion. americans watched the trial plot well. 150 million people watched the verdict and came to extremely different conclusions. >> we the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant orenthal james simpson not guilty of the crime of murder violation of section penal code 187 felony upon

nicole brown simpson a human being as charged in count one. we in the above titled action find the defendant orenthal james simpson find him not guilty in the crime of murder in violation of penal code 187 of ronald goldman a human being as charged in count two. >> i think the jury made an excellent decision. the lapd will have to sit down and put the pieces together. >> it was pretty evident that he did kill these two people. >> it is finally official. murder is legal in the state of california. >> it is not over. i think we have just begun to see the consequences of a trial like this. >> this was all really a question of trust. a lot of people in america, especially but not limited to black people, understandably because of lived experience and historical fact did not trust

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read the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant or indulging simpson not guilty of the crime of

murder. 187 a. state of california county of los angeles in the matter of the people state of california versus simpson we the jury in the above title action find it defendant simpson not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code 187 a a felony ronald goldman a human being is charged in count two of information. was one of the most culturally significant moments in the recent american history. in decades. millions of americans watched on television. we watch live in my high school class. reaction similar to that. o.j. simpson was found not guilty in the double murder of his ex- wife and a friend. the trial shaped generations of americans american news culture media and the repercussions are

still reverberating in many ways today in the wake of o.j. simpson's death today at the age of 76. i'm joined by jory reed. it is such an intense there's a certain generational effectiveness. it is such an intense thing to revisit that moment. what were your first thoughts that flooded back today?>> when that verdict happened i was home with my daughter. i was actually on maternity leave. i was 25 years old and i was home. i watched the trial like a juror. i was following it day by day. was the first thing i had ever followed this methodically and sort of obsessively since the iran hostage crisis when i was in the sixth grade. that was the previous thing i followed that way. obviously two years or three years before that the riots in la it was another thing. this was the beginning of that thing that we do where we just follow on cable news. this thing that becomes like a

soap opera. but it also kind of was it was the most kind of clear context for the racial divide in america that you could've possibly had picked >> that physical reaction. i remember that exact reaction happening in my school. exactly along those lines with precisely that immediate clear in the rome. >> if you were we white you wrap it one way if you are black you react with the other. i'm having arguments with people about this case. it was a caustic racial moment. i think the people don't understand because why didn't black people as long as we flipped together in this country and experienced each other in some ways don't understand each other. the reason black people cheered was not because they were cheering for the idea of getting away with murder. they were cheering the idea that a black man could face the criminal justice system and have them come at it with equal resources unheard of.

o.j. simpson walked into the courtroom with something no black person normally happy normally -- the best lawyers in america without lawyer the prosecutors. because even 30 years earlier just idea he might have harmed his wife he would have been lynched.>> i want to review this barack obama. have you seen this? this is a spicy. i think it is pretty profound. trump is for a lot of white people what oj's acquittal was for a lot of black folks. you know it's wrong but it feels good. the reason i think there is something profound. it is a good heartache. the facts can be presented to you whatever they are. but it all depends on what you trust the institutions that have produced the facts. if you don't trust the lapd for completely rational reasons the lapd could say he's dead to rights and you say i don't believe you. because you are the lapd. if you don't trust if you are

in the -- world and you think i just don't trust the institutions you are saying. the facts we talk about them are all mediated some set of institutions. you either trust them or you don't. if you don't those tracks -- >> you want that individual to win. not because of that individual. not something about them that makes them your guide.>> it is who is coming for them that is the enemy. there was for a lot of black folks think about the context around oj. put oj a side. we did not know about he had rejected the civil rights movement. until the documentary came out. we did not know about that. what we knew this is a black man who was investigated by a clearly racist cop. remember the word and the word came from the oj trial. >> mark berman of course. who was the lapd detective who was one of the people deployed people don't remember that. >> with a history.

>> and had written a screenplay like gorillas in the mist. we saw that. we saw the brilliant johnny cochran. if the glove don't fit you must acquit. he out lawyered these prosecutors. you saw -- forensic evidence. csi in this interesting forensic evidence. his lawyers were better. the case they made were stronger. he got off and it wasn't about oj. it was about the system he defeated. >> as we are on the eve of this iteration of a trial of the century. that was the trial of the century for sure. tens of millions watched it. cameras were in the courtroom. which is a huge part of it. so much of this was spectacle. the cameras in the courtroom was spectacle. the judge it was all spectacle. it was the tv moment. in the tv pantheon. but we are about to get the second trial of the century. tvs are not there.

it is interesting to think about how culture has and has not changed between when that happened it now. >> and donald trump is -- he's going to try the same thing. he's going to try to get acquitted based on the cultural. >> the people you hate and don't trust are coming after me. >> it is a black prosecutor. he's in the new york -- in the big city you despise. full of the undocumented and all the things you hate. and they are coming for me. it is literally the flipside of oj. it is interesting oj was at his wedding. but donald trump the problem he's going to have is that he's not going to have the greatest lawyers in history. like oj. >> it is not the dream team. that really was the finest defense team that had ever been put together. i don't think that will be the case. although sometimes those appeals pure resentment can work.>> we

will see.>> great to have you here. that is all in on this thursday night. good evening alex. it is amazing that we are reevaluating what that case was about in hindsight. the big contours as you laid out so articulately in your intro. and what we are barreling towards. >> although i will say i forgot i knew it was -- the fact it was televised was so crucial. to that. dominance. >> 150 i remember distinctly that i was sitting in lucas living room is that bronco was running we were watching it all on national television. >> thank you my friend. earlier today a source with direct knowledge of the situation gave nbc news the