and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> o.j. simpson in a knit cap from two blocks away is still o.j. simpson. it's no disguise.

it's no disguise. it makes no sense. it doesn't fit. if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. >> the late great jonnie cochran delivering the line that sealed o.j. simpson's acquittal. tonight, with simpson's passing, how the trial of the century exposed every single american faultline. >> also tonight, the first criminal trial of a former president begins monday. and nbc news has obtained a list of potential witnesses, but will trump himself take the stand? plus, maga mike johnson heads to mar-a-lago to share conspiracy theories with trump about america's election integrity, as the rnc now officially perpetrates or officially perwech waits the big lie about the 2020 election. >> but we begin tonight with the end of a chapter in american history that foreshadowed and in some ways launched an era.

>> nobody has more of what it takes to get you to a car faster. >> that is how i experienced orenthal james, o.j. simpson, as an elementary school kid in the late 1970s, as the famous guy running through the airport to the hertz counter. simpson who died today at the age of 76 from cancer was one of the most famous black americans in history, and depending on your age, there's a lot of different ways you might remember him. there's o.j. the superstar running back at the university of southern california who won the heisman trophy in 1968. or o.j. simpson the nfl star who played for 11 seasons and is in the pro football hall of fame. maybe it's from his time in the booth as a sports broadcaster for abc and nbc. or the o.j. from the movies, his most memorable role as a slapstick side kick in all those

naked gun flicks. but for most americans at this point, this is probably how you remember o.j. simpson, from june 17, 1994. >> o.j. simpson is in that ford bronco with al cow lgs. >> that chase down a southern california freeway in a white ford bronco as he was supposed to turn himself in is one of the many indelible images from o.j. simpson's biggest imprint on american culture. the trial of the century, when the former nfl superstar was prosecuted for the double murders of his ex-wife, nicole brown simpson and his friend ron goldman, a waiter who had gone to her home to return some sunglasses. the chase was one of the many moments that would become iconic. from the murders in june of 1994 in brentwood to the beginning of simpson's trial in november 1994, and ultimately, the not guilty verdict on october 3rd,

1995. nearly all of those moments have a through line to our current culture. 29 years later. the chase interrupted regularly scheduled programming on most channels. 95 million people are said to have watched. on nbc, the nba finals were shown picture in picture so the network wouldn't have to cut away from the chase, foreshadowing the news media frenzies for things like the trump arraignment in georgia last year and the insatiable american appetite for round the clock breaking news coverage. the o.j. trial highlighted the power of wealth and celebrity in the criminal justice system and the impact of cameras in the courtroom. the judge in the trial was said by some to be playing for the cameras. it also brought the topic of domestic violence front and center as the country learned that a favorite lovable pitch man had abused his ex-wife for years during their marriage. it introduced americans to the concept of forensics and dna launching an interest that later catapulted shows like csi and

launched the concept of the celebrity lawyer. jonnie cochran and his iconic closing argument, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. not to mention all the lawyers who became regulars on cable tv, greta van suth rn. you know kim kardashian but how about robert, her late father, who was o.j. simpson's friend and lawyer. and that celebrity culture gave us another link to the present day. back in his swinging celebrity days o.j. simpson traveled in the same circles as you guessed it, donald trump. he attended donald's second wedding to marla maples in december of 1993 and told reporters i think everybody in the country believes maybe their relationship can work. if this relationship can work. in 2008, 13 years after simpson was acquitted of murdering his ex-wife, donald trump wanted him as a contestant on celebrity

apprentice, nbc executives unsurprisingly nixed that suggestion. but most importantly, the trial exposed toxic racial dynamics and issues around policing and police corruption that are still being felt to this day. the murders in simpson's trial came just two years after another trial that shocked the country in a different way and an alleged crime caught on tape showing four police officers savagely assaulting a black man, rodney king. their acquittal in april 1992 sparked six days of deadly riots in los angeles and exposed wounds of division that are still raw -- that were still raw in 1994. amid that backdrop, the issue of race as opposed to celebrity and wealth took center stage at almost every step of the way. there was the scandal as a "time" magazine cover -- the scandal over a "time" magazine

cover with a darkened shadow over simpson's mugshot that made him look darker. there was police detective mark fuhrman who said he had found the two bloody gloves, one at the murder scene and one at simpson's home. jurors heard tapes proving him a prolific user of the n-word, a term coined by cnn to protect their anchors from saying the hard r version, which furman had testified that he had never used. years later, fox news hired him as an analyst during one of simpson's later legal troubles. racial tensions were so high in southern california, ahead of the verdict in simpson's trial, that ahead of the verdict, president bill clinton had been briefed on the possibility of assisting california authorities, and when a verdict came, the racial fault lines over the trial were laid bare. evidenced in the throngs of crowds who stopped in their tracks to hear the news on october 3rd, 1995. everywhere across the country. here's how nbc's nightly news

reported that moment. >> from a giant tv in new york's noisy times square, to bob's barber shop in oklahoma city. >> orenthal james simpson not guilty. >> to a bakery in chicago. >> not guilty of the crime of murder. >> mostly stunned silence. but wild celebration in howard law school in the nation's capital. >> jonnie cochran did a tremendous job of putting a reasonable doubt in the jury's mind. >> joining me now is emmy award winning broadcaster ed gordon who got the first interview with o.j. simpson following his acquittal. journalist and talk show host rolaunda watts who was in the courtroom during the trial, and william c. rhoden, columnist for espn and scape. thank you all for being here. i want to go to you first. that last little sound mash that

we showed of white americans and black americans reacting completely in diametric opposite ways to the simpson verdict is something you touch on in this. let's take a listen. >> many people in this country are feeling these days that the o.j. simpson has severed black and white relationships. according to a recent los angeles times poll, the civil verdict against o.j. determined that 71% of whites feel that o.j. is guilty. while 71% of blacks feel o.j. is not guilty. >> you had the only talk show seat inside of the trial. talk a little bit about that. you were a talk show host back then. i used to watch you show every day. why do you think they played out in such diametric opposite ways? >> i think it just came down to your american experience. and i think that this really polarized america. especially the verdict.

but this, as you had pointed out so beautifully, we were just two years off rodney king. and so there was this feeling that there was finally going to be justice for a black man in court. there was finally, here was an excellent attorney defending this o.j., whatever you thought, the thought was that you were a black person in america, and you understood what was happening with the police brutality, with the racism in the police department, and it just really just poked at every, like you said, every fault of american dynamics, particularly as it came to race. even interracial marriage was a card there. but i tell you, it really was the race issue. i believe it was because of the tender moment that black america was in at that time and to feel that justice was finally coming about. and also, the fact that there was video.

you know, we talked about viral moments. there were viral moments then, but yes, there were. rodney king video, then you also had the bloody glove video. and you had cameras in the courtroom, which was fascinating. to be part of that whole, we used to call it camp o.j. with the scaffolding outside and every day it was just a crazy, crazy circus. but there were so many important stories that came out of this tragedy. that we hope helped humanity in some way, as we dealt with domestic violence and dealt with the court system and we dealt with abuse in the police department and so many other issues that came out of that. >> indeed, and ed gordon, you scored that first interview in 2000 -- in 1996, he finally does an interview. and he talked to you. i want to play a little bit of that. >> can i at least find out where you were at that time? >> you can find out --

>> for $29.99. >> ed, the book was called if i did it, what a title. at the time, as a journalist, did you believe he did it, number one? did you believe that he is somebody who knew he did it and decided to profit ought of it? what did you think of him in that interview? >> well, i will tell you that the interview in and of itself as you might imagine was surreal to just be a part of that. i thought you showed brilliantly how many tentacles the trial had. and it wasn't just about o.j. simpson and these murders. it really showcased all of the racial issues that we still grapple with in this country today. i was in the office with jonnie cochran the day he received the call to be a part of this team. just happened, by happenstance, to be in the office. so to get the interview was something that we all wanted. i believe mr. simpson thought

that b.e.t. would be more fair than some of the other outlets. johnnie suggested to him, ed is going to ask you everything that everybody else is going to ask you. he's not going to allow you to skate. i was cognizant i wanted to make sure we did that and did that correctly. i think, though, what we saw was more about at the end of the day this nation than about o.j. simpson. as you say, it opened the can of worms that we try to tamp down, to really talk about how far we have come in racial relations and we see a picture of christopher darden there, who was on the prosecutor's side. it was difficult even for someone like him who was on the prosecutor's side being vilified often by black americans because he was quote/unquote going against o.j. lastly, i would say i think we have to remember and we always talk in broad terms in instances like this, but not every african

american believed o.j. simpson was innocent. not every african american was jumping up and down with joy. i think the media did, you know, a disservice as often is the case with just short sound bites and pictures, but i think as you said earlier, i think this is one time where black america felt like even if he did do it, you got away with it because this has been going on on the other side of the coin for so very long. i think that's where the exuberance and maybe if we want to say the misguided joy came from. >> i think had rodney king -- the men who beat rodney king gone to prison, you might have seen a different reaction from black america. fun fact, ten years after that, ed gordon, i actually got my boss at the time, james t. thomas, an interview with him. i also asked if he did it. he didn't answer me either. he still didn't answer me either.

bill, the other context of o.j. really was o.j. the athlete. i have to show this. i don't think we're allowed to play too much music on cable, but i'm not black, i'm o.j. jay-z immortalized the moment in that incredible documentary that talked about his history of really denying the civil rights movement in his presence. we just thought of him as this hero, this heroic football player and this funny guy from the movies. and the guy from the hertz commercial. what do you think ultimately his legacy as regards to the sports aspect and how much he damaged that with not just the trial and aftermath and getting convicted later, all of it, talk about that. >> yeah, and there's so much. and again, joy, you really laid out all of it. i was just thinking as i was watching all of it, i was there for every phase. the usc phase, the pro phase. i first met o.j. when i was 25 years old. i was a writer for ebony

magazine. i spent a week with him in buffalo. and i remember, we played in his living room floor, talking trash and all that. and to me, you know, back then i thought, well, any brother who played that can't be all bad. but the reality is that o.j. was michael jordan before michael jordan. he was a cross over pitchman. he was racially neutral. made it clear he was racially neutral. and that's why i find it so ironic that when you talk about the reaction to him getting off, it really wasn't about him because he really was not -- he clearly was not soul brother number one. >> right. >> so i think it's more about jonnie cochran and his brilliance. so i think, and when you talk about his passing, i think that's what makes it so complex,

when these great people pass away. you know, whether it's kobe bryant, and we have to deal with a lot of twists and turns and even with o.j., he was not this -- i mean, you showed the clip of him and donald trump which reminded me, oh, this guy. you know, so and we're all talking. there's so much to ferret out when we're trying to figure out what did his life mean. and i'm still, like i said, it was so complex, but it's about the black experience. we have a very complex relationship to this country. >> amen. we do indeed. it's a complicated story but i'm so blessed to have had these three incredible iconic figures in their own right to talk about it. thank you all very much.

up next on "the reidout," from one trial of the century to another. the first criminal trial of a former president, what we know about who is expected to take the stand. "the reidout" continues after this. do you own a lot of bras, but not a single one you really love. it's time you got into a wireless bras from knix. the ultimate in comfort and support, in sizes up to a g-cup. visit knix.com to find a wireless bra you'll love.

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in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. when the o.j. simpson trial began in 1995, it captivated a global audience in what was essentially the first reality tv show. pulling in all the themes, slebtd, wealth, tabloid culture

and how the rich and famous can often buy their own version of criminal justice. on monday, the same issues will be in play in another trial, one that will also capture the attention of viewers around the globe. the first criminal trial of a former u.s. president. donald trump. this one centered not on murder but rather around the falsification of business records to cover up an alleged affair with an adult film star before the 2016 election. let's just let that sink in for a momen. not only is a former president facing a criminal trial for the first time in history but this historic criminal defendant could again become the president in a matter of months. nbc news has obtained a list of potential witnesses who could be called to testify in the trial. for the prosecutor, there are names that are expected like trump's former lawyer, michael cohen, who took out a second mortgage to pay off stormy daniels who engaged in the alleged affair with trump and was reimbursed with a check by

trump handed to him in the oval office, and karen mcdougal who also allegedly had an affair with trump. both at a time when third wife melania trump had recently given birth to trump's fifth child. also on the list are people who are or were part of trump's inner circle, who could corroborate cohen's testimony, including trump's trusted aide, hope hicks, trump's long time assistant rhona graff, and madeleine westerhouse, and for the defense, we know of two potential witnesses. a former fec commissioner, and donald trump himself. joining me is catherine christian, msnbc legal analyst and former manhattan assistant district attorney. i'm going to make you the d.a. you're my d.a. let's talk about this because it does feel like this trial will in some ways maybe be the trial of the 21st century. the only one that's probably going to go to trial for frump

before the election. how much of a spectacle do you think it will be? >> a big spectacle just the fact it's donald trump. the first two weeks are going to be boring because it's jury selection. so no witnesses are going to be called. i'm saying boring about of course donald trump is going to take every opportunity he can and every break and after the case for the day to walk out and talk. but it's basically going to be like watching paint dry in that it's jury selection which is, i think, trial lawyers will tell you the most important thing. >> you win at jury selection. >> it's very important, but it's not exciting. it's not going to be stormy daniels and michael cohen. >> it's exciting to me because i do believe jury selection is the most important thing. because for trump, i anticipate he's going to try to do things like have his lawyers exclude anybody black. right? he's going to try to get them to include people who love maga. people who watch the apprentice. what are the kind of questions his lawyers will ask to get him

an ideal jury? >> they won't be, because remember, the prosecutor and the defense can strike people and don't have to give reason. they have ten each. so and you can also challenge people for cause. clearly, someone who is like, i'm a maga, you know -- >> you can exclude them. >> you can exclude them. in terms of them knocking people off because of their race, typically you think the prosecutor is the only one who can be challenged with that, there's also in new york defense can also challenge. you can as a defense attorney get all the asians off or all the blacks off. i anticipate the prosecutors making that point, too, to the judge, saying every single black person -- >> why are they all off? >> let's talk about some of the witnesses. we're talking about obviously michael cohen, stormy daniels. and karen mcdougal. david pecker i find interesting because he's the american media ceo. they arranged to buy the life

rights from karen mcdougal, and they did it differently. they didn't do catch and kill through him. in this case, michael cohen did it himself. how could that be interesting? >> he's very relerant because he was part of the conversations of how do we suppress this negative information as part of the national enquirer. he's going to be providing the background. >> let's play karen mcdougal. this is her in her interview about why she sold her story. >> why do you think it was that it was after donald trump was the republican nominee that they came back? >> they wanted to squash the story. >> you're saying they wanted to protect donald trump. >> i'm assuming so, yeah. >> you think it's because of a personal relationship with the guy who runs ami is friends with donald trump? >> correct. >> so this is how it's an election interference trial. >> ami is david pecker.

>> right, so the idea is they don't want the christian right who he's trying to court to know he's a cheater. >> yeah, you want to keep it private. also remember at that time, the "access hollywood," grab them by the you know what came out. you can't have karen mcdougal, stormy daniels, the "access hollywood," he was afraid, donald trump, that that would chill -- >> the joke is on everyone else. the so-called christian right doesn't care. there's also this piece that i think is very key. michael cohen, when he himself was sentenced, here's what it said in part of his own sentencing, about michael cohen. in particular, as cohen himself has now admitted with respect to both payments he made to stormy daniels he acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual one. the fact he was convicted, michael cohen, in this payoff scheme, and individual one is trump, that seems to me to be powerful evidence. >> very powerful evidence. he has baggage, michael cohen. but he is -- he was the fixer

for donald trump. he's going to testify to that. he was loyal to donald trump. and he's the only one who can talk about this because he's the one who made the playoffs. >> his baggage is he went to prison for donald trump. so his baggage actually, what baggage? he's not been wrong. he said donald trump wouldn't leave office. he's not wrong about that. what baggage he has, he has because he was doing crimes for donald trump. it seems to me kind of hard to impeach him on that. catherine christian, always a pleasure. we will see you on monday. coming up, a major announcement from two leading election deniers. what to expect from trump and speaker mike johnson's first public event together since the maga disciple was elected speaker. stay with us.

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four years ago today, donald trump tweeted, mail-in ballots substantially increases the risk of crime and voter fraud. which i know when you compare to his usual unhinged grammatically incorrect lie-filled posts it might seem pretty tame, but what he was doing there is setting up whatwise ultimately become the big lie. around this time in 2020, trump started to realize he might not win re-election. due to how badly he bollixed the covid response, leading states to pass laws to allow people to

vote safelily from home. we know the rest. fast forward to today and it looks like he's ready to once again sew doubt around the election, except this time with the help of some of his maga cronies. tomorrow, trump and house speaker mike johnson who was the leading peddler of the big lie in the house will deliver remarks at mar-a-lago on, quote, election integrity. cnn is reporting last week the republican national committee sent out a scripted call to voters saying democrats committed massive fraud in 2020. which is just the latest example of how under its new leadership the rnc has devolved into a complete and utter clown show. just this week alone, you had rnc chair election denier michael whatly lump in ukraine with china and iran when listing the united states' aggressive adversaries. while cochair and trump's danger lara trump said this with a straight face.

>> if you want to look at a family and i'll say a man in donald trump who has had nothing but misinformation and disinformation as they like to say on the other side of the aisle thrown at him every single day, i mean, there's never been anyone in history i don't think that has taken as much incoming as donald trump. >> joining me now is the former chair of the rnc, michael steele. cohost of the weekend here on msnbc. i mean, mckinley, kennedy, and lincoln were assassinated, you know. >> right, there's that. geez. look, your opening nailed the proposition. this has always been -- and i have been giving a lot of thought based on conversations i had with people inside and outside of the party and maga. there is a concerted effort that you're starting to see that is setting up the narratives for

what is to come. this is not just about, you know, getting to election day. and what they're going to roll out, whether it is, you know, threatening folks at ballot locations or gumming up the works by creating chaos and confusion in polling precincts so they can then justify having jack legged thugs show up all outfitted in black and looking menacing to scare off voters. it is also what comes afterwards. even with a trump win, it is project 2025. it is the narrative around how the government is going to take shape under his leadership. it is setting in motion all of the doubt and confusion now so that when he acts, everyone goes, oh, great, he's bringing calm and organization and structure. no, he ain't. and i think that's important for people to understand, joy. >> eric trump says the only purpose at this point of the

rnc -- let's just play him. >> they have one objective, to get people out to the polls and to make sure that voter fraud does not happen in this country, and they will put every minute of every single day, they will use every dime they raise to make sure that donald trump is the next president of the united states and wins this upcoming election. >> except they're going to spend most on his legal fees. let me give you a few data points to respond to. they're looking into the wind of joe biden beating trump in the majority of national polls. they're looking at the pew poll cratering all of this nonsense about the sudden movement of young people and black people toward the republican party. when you go by age, young people aged 18 to 29 and 30 to 49 are overwhelmingly leaning toward the democrats, and that's whether you talk about men or women. there's no gender gap. then it's split in 50 to 64. 65 plus, it's split among women and only a big thing -- a big

republican advantage among men. when you go by where democrats have wide advantages, it's women with a college degree. it's urban voters, hispanic voters. voters born in the 1990s, asian voters and religiously unaffiliated and black voters. all of those are overwhelming advantages for democrats. republicans advantages are mormons, white voters without a college degree, veterans, rural, white men, and those born in the 1940s. the first group are the rising group population wise. the second group are the declining group population wise. they know they're at a disadvantage demographically, republicans. they have not changed that and in fact they made it worse. don't care what the 900 poll persons say. these are the big polls, pew. >> yeah, and the thing to note about that pew research poll is that that poll was taken before the collapse under arizona.

before the elevation of ivf. before a whole host of things that have subsequently occurred that have further impacted those numbers. at the end of the day, which is why you're starting to see this narrative around oh, the democrats are peddling in election collusion and corruption and so forth. that's, again, a lot of projection. because we know where that collusion and corruption is going to be coming from. it's not the democrats. it's the republicans. and all this oh, the voter fraud from before. well, this last election cycle, both '20 and '22, have been the most litigated and investigated for voter fraud of any in our history. >> that's right. >> yet, all those -- the only thing those republicans produced, joy, were republicans who were convicted of voter fraud. >> correct. and voting like nine times for trump because they were so

desperate. and this is why you have to understand why he did the violence, why he did january 6th. he knew he lost. he was embarrassed. michael steele, thank you. coming up, trump tries to con everyone about abortion, like leaving up to the states is somehow an acceptable substitute for reproductive rights. chris mays will join me next. stay with us. comfortable underwear. made to move with you, not on you. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

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donald trump is the single solitary reason that half of america now lives in a reproductive prison. it was he who nominated three justices who lied to all of us and to the united states senate when they promised to respect precedent, including on abortion. stare decisis, they said. yeah, stair to perjury, is more like it. they are who they are and always were. it is because of donald trump that millions of women are held hostage to a minority of right-wing men, but if you listen to his lies, you would think he did a good thing. >> for 52 years, people have wanted to end roe v. wade to get it back to the states. we did that. it was an incredible thing. an incredible achievement. we did that. now the states have it. and the states are putting out what they want. you're getting the will of the people. it's been pretty amazing. >> yeah, if you listen to voters, donald, they don't agree. they blame you and republicans for this nightmare.

>> i have seen so manyaconian a fascist gop to take these steps. they want to move things backward. they want a white nationalist, right wing fascist government. >> i can't imagine anything more horrifying than being forced to have a baby, especially if you're a child yourself. i can't even imagine that. i think it's cruel and unusual and sick. >> the people who are in charge are making these rules and we made a big mistake by not -- by getting trump in office in 2020. didn't think we were going to make this big of a mistake but it's going to haunt us for years to come. >> that lady is right. this will haubt us for years to come because trump and republicans have left it up to states and 14 states currently have laws in effect banning nearly all abortions at conception. while arizona and florida currently ban abortion at 15 weeks. a state-wide ban on most abortions after six weeks of pregnancy will take effect in

florida in may. arizona's near total ban could go into effect in two weeks. south carolina and georgia are currently the only states that ban abortion at six weeks, when they claim cardiac activity is detected. to be clear, that is a forced birth misnomer because at six weeks the pregnancy is still in the embryonic stage and an embryo does not become a fetus until about nine weeks and an embryo does not have a heart at that stage of pregnancy. nebraska and north carolina are the two states that currently ban abortion at the 12-week mark. utah is the only state that currently bans abortion at 18 weeks of pregnancy. iowa bans abortion starting at 20 weeks post fertilization, however, iowa's supreme court heard arguments today on whether to allow a far more restrictive law which would ban abortion at six weeks to go into effect. and republicans in that state are ready to drop the hammer on women if they get the green light. there are also a number of other states that have 19th century

laws on the books and republican legislatures are ready to implement them. wisconsin has an 1849 abortion law still on the books, which is currently the subject of a lawsuit. it will head to their supreme court which has a liberal majority for now. one of their liberal justices just announced she would be retiring in 2025, putting the liberal majority and women's rights in danger. then the comstock act, the 1873 anti-obscenity law which also remains on the books and which bans sending drugs or implements that could be used for abortion through the mail. trump allies have said they plan to start enforcing it if he wins in november. and guess what, that would effectively ban abortion nationwide, no longer leaving it up to the states. so when they tell us that they have left it up to the states, they are lying to your face. it is not what they say, it's what they do. to that point, yesterday, arizona republicans who claimed they didn't agree with the decision of their supreme court were given an opportunity to

repeal the 1864 law. but opted not to through procedural maneuvering. those moves were met with democratic outrage. >> arizona attorney general chris mayes who has vowed to stand in the way of her state becoming gilead joins me next.

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>> i am 69 so we got a lot of rights during my lifetime. to have the government try to step in and change things to the 1800s is, on the surface ridiculous, but it is very hurtful to a lot of people. that was just one arizona woman was another victim of the republican attempt to drag us back to the dark ages. joining me now is arizona attorney general chris mayes. thank you for being here. you have found that you will not prosecute any woman or doctor under this 1864 law, but is that good enough for the women of arizona to have to depend on you remaining in office and another democrat being elected after you? >> hi joy, thank you for having

me. it's a great question. obviously i will do everything i can over the next 60 days which is what we believe is the amount of time that we have to try to get something done in terms of reversing this decision or getting it overturned. i've also set as you noted that we will not prosecute any doctor, nurse, pharmacist, medical professional, woman under this insane, egregious law that was passed when arizona was not estate. women could not vote. the civil war was still raging. you make a very good point which is, we have so many people in our state who are fearful that despite my promises that i won't do that despite that i have said i will fight any county attorney that tries to prosecute that a court could disagree with me. we are in a state of chaos in

essence and arizona, from a legal standpoint. there is one guy that put us here and that is donald trump. >> and the speaker. what is so insane to me as you said, down to samuel alito , they keep reaching back to the 19th century before women have the right to vote to say that that's when things were great. except for article 3 when it comes to insurrection. that they carve out for trump. it feels like it deeply misogynistic way to run a country. your thoughts. >> absolutely. i think that is what you are hearing in the voices of some of the people that you just interviewed or that the show just interviewed here in arizona which is a sense of disbelief that we have in arizona that we just got dragged back to 1864.

this is why i really think this is such an enormous calculation by the extremist and the legislature and by these judges in the supreme court. this is not a state that believes that we should be guided by or governed by an 1864 almost total abortion ban. this is something that women and men are taking very deeply personally. i think it is a huge miscalculation. we are going to fight it. at the end of the day i believe the people of arizona will make their voices heard in november in the form of a ballot initiative that i believe will enshrine abortion as a constitutional right. we have this between now and november where we've got to protect women. we are doing

everything we can to do that. >> are you confident that the ballot initiative will get on the ballot without republicans somehow stopping it? >> i am. i am very confident about that. i think the decision by the supreme court just gave it rocket fuel. i believed it was going to pass anyway and now i think this supreme court in arizona has almost assured its passage. i think the people of arizona are going to make it abundantly clear that they believe in reproductive rights, that they believe in abortion access, but we are faced with a situation. i have been in touch with my fellow attorneys general in the west literally talking to the ag of california about how we can partner to help get women to california safely. how we can partner to get our

abortion doctors licensed quickly in california to care for their patients in california. just think about that. how in the world did we get here? >> the other thing that was leavell -- legal in 1864 was slavery. what you just described is an underground railroad that women in the modern era must use to get base of healthcare. god help us. women were essentially chattel in the 19th century. i think there were a lot of men that would love to go back to that era. that's what they mean when they say make america great again. attorney general kris mayes, thank you for what you have done for the people of arizona. that is it for the reidout. all in with chris hayes is now. tonight on all in. >> the president wrote a check as payment for hush money