jor plays in a sports game. giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary homes. the beat with ari starts right now. >> big show. we have michael avanati's first

interview from prison. i'm sure you're gearing up for the trial coverage. any final thoughts on how we should approach it? >> i think it's a sign of how disorienting trump has made everything we cover. we are about to be covering together i think hopefully a lot of these nights, the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president and you're focused on it like a laser. i started with it. because he does such a volume business of damage, we multitask and it really is the biggest thing. i'm riveted by the fact it's alvin bragg who a lot of people underestimated, including yours truly. i'm riveted it's the most trumpy of all the cases. it involves a porn star, lying, cheating, michael cohen. i think it's really the most important thing bearing down on us as a country. i'm frankly a little anxious. i don't think we know how the country because we've never done this before. the arrangements for sort of

less of a thing than people thought they would be, but we live in a country where trump has made his base okay with political violence. there are more questions than answers about what our country is heading into. >> it matters. we don't get to try which first. as you said, perhaps the trumpist trial is going first. we'll be covering it all. i appreciate your handoff. >> going to go upstairs and watch. >> so welcome to this special edition of the beat and get comfortable. for a big interview, which is now just a couple moments away. we are reporting today as donald trump's first criminal trial begins monday first ignited by stormy daniels and michael avenatti. tonight, he breaks his silence with his first ever interview from prison about this case and trial. it was daniel's d.a. and his

aggressive legal pursuit of trump and michael cohen which exposed those damning details of this plot to pay for daniels' silence. that is, remember, the original evidence that led to the new york d.a.'s investigation. his dispute led to this one legal nightmare that trump has avoided in every other investigation probe and case. it has led to this speedy criminal tile beginning tonight. they are at the center of the facts that this d.a. used to indict former president trump and now as daniels prepares to testify in this trail, we know that on the other hand, avenatti's story took a very different turn. the lawyer was convicted on crimes and fraud related to representing stormy daniels and other clients. he was hit with a severe 19-year

prison sentence in total. he is now incarcerated in california's terminal island federal correctional institution. so here's the deal tonight. avenatti is both central to next week's trial and hard to reach now even though he was a media fixture at the height of his work for stormy daniels. but since going to prison as i mentioned, he has not spoken in an interview about this case until now. so as this first ever trial of a former president begins, next week, which was just reaffirmed that schedule by an appeals court today, as he is a very news worthy and legally relevant guest, he is speaking out for the first time from prison on the now historic case he helped ignite. joining us now by phone is michael avenatti, the former lawyer to stormy daniels. michael, welcome. >> it's good to hear your voice,

ari. >> it's good to have you. we have a lot of news to get to. but first, how are you holding up? >> well, as elton john once wrote, i'm still standing, ari. i'm doing fine and you know, to those who were hoping that perhaps this last few years would you know, ultimately destroy me, i've got some bad news for them and that is that it hasn't. i'm going to come out of this better and stronger than ever and you know, every day, i strive to make sure that this does not define me. i believe this will be ultimately you know, a chapter in a very long book as opposed to the book. >> understood. you join us in a very news worthy time. some of your lawyering let to the exposure, the evidence in this case. the new york trial now will be donald trump's first and possibly only trial this year. how do you assess the strength of the prosecution's case?

>> well, i think what i'm about to say is going to surprise a lot of people and that is that you know, i think this is the wrong case at the wrong time. i think that the case is in many ways stale at this juncture. you're talking about conduct that occurred some eight years ago. i think the fact that it's occurring in state court in new york is a mistake. and i think that when you are going to potentially deprive tens of millions of americans of their choice for the presidency of the united states, whether we agree with those folks or not or regardless of what we may think of donald trump, i think it's a mistake to do it based on a case of this nature. i was hoping frankly that there would have been less hand wringing, less bedwetting and that the january 6th case would

have been filed in a more timely manner. there's no excuse or reason as to why that case could not have been brought in 2021. and it should have been brought in 2021. and had it been brought in 2021, we would not find ourselves in the situation that we're in right now. i know a lot of people have been critical of the united states supreme court as well as the second, not the second, but the d.c. circuit. i think those complaints are frankly misplaced. >> michael, have you been in touch with d.a. bragg's office and what specifically in evidence or logic do you think is wrong with this case? >> i'm going to decline to answer as to whether i've been in touch with either the defense or the d.a.'s office, but let me say this in response to the second part of your question. you know, i think the case has a lot of problems. now that, i don't mean to suggest that means that trump

will not be convicted because i think he will be convicted. because number one, he's a criminal defendant and in our society, i don't believe criminal defendants generally get a fair shake. in fact, i think the percentage of convictions demonstrates that the deck is stacked decidedly against all criminal defendants. number one. number two, i don't think he can get a fair trial in new york. and to the people who claim that in fact he can get a fair trial in new york with a new york jury, i would ask them if they were to go to sleep tonight and wake up tomorrow and found out that the case had been moved to mississippi or alabama, would think still think the trial was going to be fair. i think if they were being honest, they would answer no. so, i don't think he can get a fair trial in new york. but separate apart from that, i think the case does have problems. number one, i don't know who the narrater witnesses are going to be in the case and by that, i

mean that every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story. from my perspective, i surmise that the d.a. is going to use potentially michael cohen or stormy daniels for that purpose. and i think that has the potential to be a disaster. michael cohen, and you know i've never been a fan of michael for various reasons. you know, he's a serial liar. he's shown himself incapable of telling the truth. his legal acumen leaves a lot to be desired. let's just say if leonard hand or darrow had a love child, it would be cohen. >> he claimed he just paid retainer money and now it's being prosecuted as financial froud, lying about the expense. you have a lot of experience in the case. is donald trump lying when he says it was going to be a

retainer? >> i don't believe that. if you look at the interviews you and i conducted in 2018, i've always scoffed at that. my point is one just of trial dynamics. who's going to tell the story. the problem is if the prosecution relies predominantly on michael cohen and documents don't admit themselves into evidence. i see various legal commentators talk about well, this is a document case. well, that may be true to a certain degree, but you've still got to have somebody on the stand that tells the story. and to say that michael cohen is a problem witness would be an understatement. i mean, and look. here's the other issue, ari. you know, alina abba is not going to be trying this case for donald trump. i don't know he got them, but he got real lawyers in this case. and these lawyers know their way around a courtroom and i think they're going to have an

absolute field day with michael cohen on the stand. >> you said some people might be surprised that you speaking to us today, see all the weakness in this case. i do want to remind you that back when you were involved, you said trump should have liability. you said federal prosecutors in new york should present this for potential indictment of trump when he was president. so how can you explain going from that then to what you're saying tonight that you think this is a troubled case? >> well, i can explain it this way, ari. and you're absolutely right. i wrote an op-ed in "the new york times" in 2018 in october which predated the criminal investigation into me by about ten days coincidentally enough and i don't believe in coincidences. i advocated for the indictment of then sitting president trump. i stand by that 100%. i advocated for federal prosecutors in the southern district of new york to bring

campaign finance charges. and by the way, no coach in explanation has ever been provided by anybody as to who made that decision and why they didn't bring those charges either while he was president or immediately there after. i think that's a question that people need to ask. the problem that i have with this case now, i have a number of problems. first of all, cases are not like fine red wine, ari. they don't get better with age. and this case hasn't gotten better with age. number two, i don't believe this case belongs in state court and i think it rests on a legally tenuous theory. namely that the crime that was attempted to be covered up was a federal election crime. i think that could be a problem potentially on appeal. for the state. and number three -- >> let me slow you down. you're just to be clear saying that with your knowledge of all of this, if the d.a. is trying to make this stick as felony, as a serious matter, based on

federal rather than state crime, you think that could be a hole in the whole theory of this case? >> i do. and i think it's going to be tested on appeal. when trump is convicted. again, i think he will be convicted. that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to hold up. i believe if you're going to bring a case against a sitting president or a former president who tens of millions of people support, especially in today's day and age with how divided we are, i think it needs to be a rock solid, lock tight, nearly perfect prosecuted case. because otherwise, you run a huge risk as to what it's going to mean for the country. and i don't believe this case right now is the case. and that's the problem that i have. but i stand behind everything i said in 2018. everything i wrote in that op-ed. and i remain very concerned that no one has gotten to the bottom

of what the hell exactly happened with epstein in 2018. was that decision made by jeffrey berman? william barr? who made that decision and why was it made to turn a blind eye to donald trump's conduct? >> you mentioned your history. you also wrote that there are facts and evidence, texts, e-mails, et cetera in the hush money case that have yet to see the light of day that will be quote, very damaging to the prosecution. have those since seen the light of day? what are you referring to? >> i'm going to be careful about what's been disclosed and who it's been disclosed to. i don't know ultimately if they will see the light of day during the trial, but you know, ari, over the course of the representation of miss daniels, i came to learn a number of things, unfortunately, from her that turned out to be completely untrue. and a lot of that is what led me

to terminate my representation of her in february of 2019. one of the big things that i learned, unfortunately, is that what i had been sold by miss daniels relating to how this payment had came about and what i had subsequently advocated on television and others in reliance on what she had told me, turned out to be completely false. it had been represented to me that she had not attempted to extort donald trump in the campaign in the waning days of 2016. that they had come to her and i believed her when she told me that repeatedly. unfortunately in early 2019, i came to learn that was not true. >> does it matter the legal case who initiated it if as you said earlier, donald trump still lied about it and possibly potentialo the government about it. >> i don't think from a legal perspective it matters, but very

well from an optics standpoint, it could matter. again, i believe he's be convicted in the case, but i don't think it's going to move the needle to the degree some people believe that it will. i think a lot of this is already baked into the analysis relating for instance to the campaign. i've seen the polls and i've seen the pundits talk about that if he's criminally convicted, it's going to be meaningful as it relates to the presidential election. i don't think that's going to be true if he's convicted in this particular case. >> right. let me ask you this, michael. you've thrown some cold water on what some people thought was a strong case here and you've also given your analysis of what may happen and we'll all be watching. at the same time, you have implied that your treatment by the then barr and trump justice department was harsher than other people may have been dealt with. if they were in your position. you had become for a time, a very prominent foe of then president trump.

do you say tonight that there is evidence that you were treated differently and if so, does that mean anything for what a second term trump doj might look like if he were elected? >> i don't believe there's any question that i was treated differently and i believe if anyone is asked that honestly and looks at what happened here and if they're honest in their answer, i believe that they would answer the same way that i have. i was indicted in three cases within 54 days. the government proceeded to stack these sentences on top of one another. i was not treated fairly and i was treated differently and i firmly believe and will go to my grave believing that one of the reasons, the reason i was treated in this fashion was because i was the biggest enemy of donald trump in 2018. there's no question about that. i was also his most dangerous enemy. >> finally, what do you say to people listening tonight who think well, even if that's the case and there was differential

treatment, you still were caught and at times expressed contrition for crimes and crimes related to dishonesty. why should people take your word on any of this tonight? >> well, because i think i demonstrated over a significant period of time and over a couple of decades of legal work that i've done a lot of good. that a lot of what i'd said has checked out. that i generally have not trafficked in nonsense. there's no question that i made mistakes. no question that i exercised poor judgment at times, but there's no question that i exercised poor judgment at times but i think people need to ask yourself or themselves, are you really going to define somebody by the worst thing they did in their life or look at the totality of the body of their work. >> what advice would you give to anyone in how to make sense of this trial? >> i think it's going to be a circus. it's certainly going to be

entertaining. you're going to have your work cut out for you, but from what i've seen, you're certainly going to be up to the task. and again, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. >> michael avenatti, thank you very much for joining us tonight. this interview is airing for the first time tonight. it was recorded by phone from terminal island and edited for clarity. given its relevance to the trial and all these public issues, we will be posting this entire interview online. tonight, you can go to msnbc.com/ari. that's msnbc.com/ari. speaking out on several big issues there. we're going to get legal reporting perspective from nick and jill when we're back in just 90 seconds. e back in just 90 seconds

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire i believe he'll be convicted of the case, but i don't think it's going to move the needle to the degree that some people believe that it will. >> that's former stormy daniels lawyer, michael avenatti speaking from prison. he does expect trump to be convicted, he says, and it's a case avenatti and daniels ignited. we turn now to watergate prosecutor, nick ackerman, drawing on his experience, and joan walsh. thanks to both of you for being here on the night of a news worthy interview. he has many controversies

associated with him. i asked him about those. but first and foremost, nick, what do you think of the two points he makes there? that he does expect trump to be convicted but there are issues in this case. >> i wouldn't take his word on either of those two things. he knows nothing about this case. he was not involved in the mechanics of the case, not involved in the payoffs. he's not a witness in this case. the witnesses in this case, it's not just michael cohen, it's also david pecker, who was the head of the national inquirer with the indictment alleges is a scheme to basically catch and kill individuals who were offering information on donald trump to keep that from the voting public in 2016. >> and that became a crime of lying to the government and potentially related election crime. when you say other things, you mean he was not the lawyer at the time this went down. >> he does know a lot of things

that most people don't know whether you like it or not. you might be thinking that he's just criticizing the d.a. or whatever your reasons are. he knows what stormy daniels' state of mind was at the time this came out in '18. how he dealt with mr. cohen at that time. he and mr. cohen both went to prison. what did you think of his concern about cohen as a witness? >> sure, cohen has a problems as a witness, but a question of the jury is not whether he lied in the past. it's whether you can believe him now. >> i will say and fairness and criticism applies to both lawyers. then and now. >> but he's got nothing, zero, to do with it. he has no knowledge as to any of the allegations in this complaint. he talks about the case being stale. that was a motion that was already made by donald trump and denied by judge merchan. >> i would say based on the situation, he's unlikely to be a witness but for our reporting purposes, you don't know who all

the witnesses will be. >> i can tell you one, that's avenat the, i. >> did the d.a. tell you that? >> no but there's no way any reasonable district attorney would put that guy on the witness stand. >> there's a difference there when we don't know. >> well, we don't know. it could be santa claus, too. it's not going to be avenatti. >> don't make me call about santa claus on tv. i just want to be clear. >> there's no way you're going to call avenatti. he doesn't understand this case. what's he going to say for the defense? he has nothing to say. >> well, he just said some things. again, i'm just trying to be clear on what we heard. he just said some things about stormy daniels' credibility, cohen's credibility against donald trump and his knowledge of those matters. so i don't know that at this juncture we could rule out anything, but i take your point.

joan, i want to play for you the part where he did say conviction. still with all of his knowledge and whether you find it credible or not, his view that the case is not perfect. he still thinks it will result in the conviction of donald trump. >> i think the case has a lot of problems. now that does not, i don't mean to suggest that that means that trump will not be convicted because i think he will be convicted. i believe he'll be convicted in the case but i don't think it's going the move the needle to the degree that some people believe it will. >> joan, your thoughts on him there and in general. >> i don't know why he is saying that he thinks he will be convicted based on the doubts he has about the case. he doesn't have any special knowledge. he seems to be kind of prejudicing the world against this jury in saying this poor president trump can't get a fair trial in new york, which is very interesting. i also didn't really enjoy the way he depicted stormy daniels as being dishonest. she said they came to her with

this offer but in fact, she went and sought it out. the man stole an estimated $300,000 from that woman. you know. she's had a tough time. and i think him dragging her into this and dragging her down in case, i don't know if she'll be a witness, but it was the opposite of gentlemanly. >> you make a fair point. as mentioned in the interview and i'll mention again now, he's been convicted of crimes relaeting to dishonesty. miss daniels has not. so people can assess that. but i'm reminded about what nicolle said about this. she talked about the trumpiness and messyness. there are a lot of people in this story. we'll get back to the law, but you're here on the story. that don't necessarily make this

a crisp, straightforward story to america about what are still serious allegations against defendant trump. >> serious allegations. his grandiosity is unbelievable. i wrote it down. i was trump's biggest enemy. do you think that's true, nick? >> of course not. he said he was going to run for president at one point. >> yes, he was going to run for president. this man never met a green room he turned down. he never, like, getting between him or and michael cohen and a camera, very, very dangerous. as people say about certain politicians. he loved the camera. i was sharing with nick i was at another network and he very nicely kicked me out of his green room so he could do an interview with you while i was at this other network. >> i didn't know that. >> i'm breaking news. >> as for this so-called staleness, i want to play it again because it is interesting

to think that donald trump's legal foe here, who at one point was, and we have to be clear, he was on this show and a lot of channels. msnbc, cnn, network. because at the time, i agree. there's also the case that at the time, he and many others viewed him as this avatar of a strong trump resistance, nick. here's what he says now about his concerns about this case being stale. >> well, i think what i'm about to say the going to surprise a lot of people and that is that you know, i think this is the wrong case at the wrong time. i think that the case is in many ways stale at this juncture. you're talking about conduct that occurred some eight years ago. i think the fact that it's occurring in state court in new york is a mistake. and i think that when you are going to potentially deprive tens of millions of americans of

their choice for the presidency of the united states, whether we agree with those folks or not or regardless of what we may think of donald trump, i think it's a mistake to do it based on a case of this nature. >> nick, when we do reporting and interviews, we don't know what people are going to say. that was striking. he said it was going to surprise some people. it surprised some people here as we spoke with him. what is your legal response to that? the legal response when this d.a. does have a case that could have been brought earlier by that office. there was a change of d.a.'s that they didn't bring earlier. and their theory of the case, because i'm going to cover both side of this thing. the defense side is you are stretching and supersizing this statute to get trump. your response. >> first of all, he's dead wrong on the statute itself. he's saying it all relates to a federal campaign violation. that's not true. if one reads just judge

merchan's opinion, it's not only on the federal violation of campaign contributions, but it's a state and it's on tax violations. in addition, this exact same argument. >> just to slow you down. you're saying this is basically you need two things bad. you need, right? and you're sayingne doesn't have to be federal. >> of course not. doesn't have to be in state court. no reason why state court is any different than federal court when it comes to a criminal violation. this is a state violation that can be based on federal violations but it's also based on other state violations which have to do with campaign violations and tax. secondly, the idea that this case is stale is an issue that has already been argued by donald trump before judge merchan and it's been denied. there's no staleness there. there's no 14th amendment violation. he says about the nature of the case. i don't know what he's talking about. >> on appeal, it could

potentially be overturned on the theory of the laws being used. it wouldn't really be overturned on the so-called staleness. >> it wouldn't be overturned on the laws. >> it could be. legally technically. >> anything could be, but this is pretty solid. >> yeah. >> there's no way it should ever be overturned. on either the tax violation or certainly the state. >> i'm running over on time, but as a lawyer, when he referred to the length of his prison sentence and that he suspected the trump doj got him harsher treatment, do you think that's possible? >> anything's probable but believe me, he committed some pretty serious crimes of extortion, stole money not just from stormy daniels, but tried to steal it from other people. big corporations. they had him on tape. this guy is lucky he got the time he did. >> so to be clear, he got time and you get time sort of doing your legal fact check.

you don't find that very convincing, the idea that this was an excessive sentence based on potential political persecution. >> i don't see any evidence of that in this particular case. >> we wanted to make sure. this is why we book everyone. people heard him from prison and our two experts here and i suspect we'll be hearing more from you. whether you like green rooms or not, joan. we have a lot of news to cover and this trial. >> i love seeing my friend right here. >> we love both of you. i want to tell folks we have a lot more coming up on the interview from prison. breaking his silence here on the beat. also later tonight, this absolutely draconian ruling out of arizona. they're trying to apply an old law to not only ban abortions, but to jail doctors who perform them no matter the reason, including potentially health and safety of the mother. we have that story coming up. and jack smith's message to the supreme court. stay with us. mith's message to the prsueme court. stay with us ♪

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d.a.'s office. >> is donald trump lying when he says it was all going to just be a retainer? >> i don't believe that. i've never believed it and if you go back and look at the interviews in fact that you and i conducted in 2018, i've always scoffed at that and thought it was ridiculous. >> a ridiculous trump defense there as fact checked by michael avenatti. he just spoke out with us from prison. he's been on his own path from lawyer to inmate. he's eyeing this trial next week on the issues of whatever you think of him and we discussed some of the legal problems, the convictions he's had, he did ignite all of this six years ago in the way he represented stormy daniels. his remarks from prison in next week's trial are not a legal matter. they involve this unprecedented american story and the repercussions could go from new york to d.c. to the campaign

trial. so we go beyond the courtroom now with margaret carlson. welcome. >> hello, ari. what an interview. kudos to you. >> thank you. >> i don't know how you got him to talk from prison but congratulations. >> thank you, margaret. as i mentioned and this applies to many witnesses we've heard from over the years, their legal status may merit criticism. people may have strong views understandably and yet there's a reason why so many prosecutors and others have spoken with them and gathered their evidence. these people were in really central roles. i'm curious what you thought of what michael avenatti said not just on the law, but his view about the fact this is not necessarily an airtight case for the public about donald trump's alleged wrong doing. >> well, it may not be. it looks to you know normal people easier to understand than

the documents cases and maybe even the january 6th case. because it's you know, it's, i don't know. hollywood housewives kind of case. and i'm disappointed in that it is the first case and it's the tawdry one. it doesn't go to the real problems that donald trump presents to the country. at the beginning of the interview, he said he was going to surprise you and i didn't notice any surprise on your face. once we learned about michael avenatti who was just ever present, i mean, he's comparing himself to michael cohen favorably and i don't remember michael cohen defrauding a paraplegic and stealing $300,000 is a lot to steal from anybody and stormy daniels didn't appear to be sitting that high in the income level. it's like astonishing.

but i mean, we can't be surprised that he now doesn't think this is the right case at the right time. because he's not in it. he's not central anymore. he's sitting in a prison and it probably was a relief to him to have a platform to talk about it because he's not sitting in a chair as counsel and he's probably not even going to be a witness for the reason he said michael cohen wouldn't make a good witness. that's because he's a fraud and a liar and a cheat. >> i hear your criticism there. sometimes viewers come in and out as you get ready for dinner on the east coast. he's been convicted of crimes related to dishonesty. and mr. cohen's crimes were chiefly on behalf of donald trump and he ultimately cooperated with them although there were also some tax issues. i do know and i can say to share with viewers as we have more time now, there are a whole range of media requests i happen to know for mr. avenatti, so we

were able to arrange this prison phone call over time but i would not be surprised he's on other media soon. mr. cohen of course has been on the program and others. tonight, he's posting online, rebutting some of what avenatti says. we have an open invite out to him to come on and respond directly. here's a little bit of the point you referenced about what he was about saying about cohen and witnesses. >> every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story. from my perspective, i surmise that the d.a. is going to use potentially michael cohen or stormy daniels for that purpose and i think that has the potential to be a disaster. michael cohen is a, and you know, i've never been a fan of michael for various reasons. you know, he's a serial liar. he's shown himself to be incapable of telling the truth. >> margaret?

>> well, as you said, he told -- he lied in the interest of the candidate in a president. which is much different than what michael avenatti did. he was always lying and cheating on his own behalf. and michael cohen i think makes a good witness. i saw his congressional testimony. he's not a bad witness. and he's repentant. i don't see any repentance from michael avenatti, did you? >> i wouldn't describe him as overly contrite, if you're asking for my observation, but through the legal process, he did on record in court say that he was contrite and go through that process and others not do that. he's made an effort to say that in public. >> well, that happens in court. when my parents were about to discipline me, i was suddenly very contrite. but i don't think he feels it. even in the way he spoke with

you, he's -- and oh, here's one thing i do think went too far. yes, he should be punished because nike, kimberly clark, the poor clients like the paraplegic he defrauded. i don't think he should have been put in a cell with a drug lord. that strikes me as the kind of thing that someone might do as an extra little bit of punishment. >> it's a footnote to it but yeah, he was put in the isolation facility they used for el chapo who was in there for a string of murders. i'm not issuing a judgment here, nick ackerman disagreed, but others have written about that and said it seemed harsh. i'm running over on time. i'll say to you what i said to our other experts. please stay at work and near

your phone and camera for this trial. thank you. >> thank you, good night. >> stay with me because after the break, this arizona case is so important. we're going to get into that next. so important we're going to get into that next ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ sup? -who are you? i'm your inner child. get in. listen, what you really need in life is some freakin' torque. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance? how about you love and accept this? p-p-p-p-powershot! when can i drive? you already are! the dodge hornet r/t... the totally torqued-out crossover. when barbara switched to turbotax... i broke four generations of family tradition... ma, i want to make perfume!

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turning to an absolutely bombshell and draconian decision from the supreme court of arizona, the court has upheld what is basically a near total

abortion ban that was first passed in the civil war era. it predates arizona even becoming a state. you talk about going backwards. it was passed back in 1864, the time when women's notions and equality was anathema. what it means is in two weeks, arizona will make abortion punishable by two to five years of jail for anyone who performs it or helps a woman obtain one. translation. doctors, friends, family members. anyone involved in a woman doing that say because it's her choice or she wants to travel out of state potentially where she's in danger of dying. the way this is written and enacted, we are on a path those people being sent to prison here in america. now the fight for rights is continuing. arizona's actually as we mentioned, one of 11 states where advocates are still trying to have an abortion protection issue put on the november ballot. now those activists say this is

more serious given the new state ruling. it would be a way to rebuke at the ballot box what some lawmakers and advocates have said in the wake of today's decision. >> it is a dark day in arizona. >> this is bull [ bleep ]. >> 1864 was before women even had the right to vote. >> the ballot measure is essential especially after today's decision. >> i mean, women have no choices now. >> a vast majority of arizonans, nine out of ten support the right to get an abortion and want government out of our reproductive healthcare decisions. >> the ballot box the way that voters can have their say. i say bring it on. >> bring it on. remember, the republican appointees who overturned roe said the issue would stop there. people would not be criminalized or sent to jail for thas. and they said there wouldn't be further controversies. all of that has been proven wrong. the u.s. supreme court gutted

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trial starting monday is not what most legal experts say is the most serious case against trump and now jack smith is urging the supreme court to reject trump's claims about immunity, saying, quote, the president's constitutional duty to take care of the laws be executed dut not entail, a, quote, general right to violate them and a bedrock principle, no person is above the law, including the president. that's an update on that case. as for the news, our full michael avenatti interview is up on youtube. go to msnbc.com/ari, msnbc.com/ari. you can see the entire thing and decide for yourself between him, michael cohen, and many of the other people that we're going to be covering when the trial starts monday. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. [paparazzi taking pictures] introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. ned, ned, who are you wearing? he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis.

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