turning point. how a deadly airstrike on an aid convoy has changed the dynamic in the israel hamas war. congresswoman meddling dean

joins me to discuss why she and other lawmakers are calling on president biden to push conditions on u.s. military aid for israel. doctors without borders is here to talk about the dangers faced by relief organizations. courtroom,. special counsel jack smith appears to be running out of patience with the judge in donald trump's classified documents case as trump desperately tries to delay his first criminal trial and compares himself to nelson mandela. agent of chaos. if donald trump wins the white house, he promises a nationwide round up a fund committed immigrants and a focus on discrimination against white people. the person at the center of both noxious ideas, stephen miller. gelati, and gender era dive into this part of the chaos promised by trump 2.0. i'm jonathan capehart, this is the saturday show.

tomorrow marks six months since hamas terrorists streamed into israel, killing 1200 people and kidnapping more than 200. in response, israel launched a war on hamas, pounding the gaza strip, starting in the north and moving to the south. according to gaza health ministry, more than 33,000 palestinians have been killed since the war began. during these past six months, the united states has stood lockstep with israel. but, we may be at a critical turning point in that relationship in the wake of the israeli ills airstrike that killed seven aid workers from world central kitchen on april 1st. in a report released yesterday, the israel defense force called the strike "a grave mistake," after its own investigation found serious errors and violations of protocol that

israeli forces to "mistakenly assume hamas gunmen were inside the aid vehicle." nbc news is not independently verified that claim. two high ranking members of the israeli military have been dismissed from their posts and three others have been formally reprimanded. world central kitchen says this is an important step forward but it is not enough. the monitoring organization is demanding an immediate independent investigation, pointing out "the idf cannot credibly investigate its own failure." the tragedy appears to have sparked a come to jesus meeting between israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu and president biden, who suggested a showdown was coming during a hot microphone moment after a state of the union address last month. >> i told him to cut it out. >> the meeting came in the form

of a tense phone call on thursday, during which the president underscored the need for an immediate cease-fire. biden called the deadly strike on the aid workers "unacceptable" and for the first time, suggested that there could be a shift in u.s. policy unless benjamin netanyahu enacts "a series of specific, concrete, and measurable steps to address the protection of civilians in gaza." in response, israel has committed to opening additional aid routes that will allow desperately needed aid and northern gaza, including the erez crossing that has been closed since october 7th. the u.n. secretary-general's warning "gaza is on the brink of mass starvation ." the increasing outcry over the military increases in gaza has put a spotlight on u.s. military aid to israel. the united states is by far the largest supplier of military aid, providing more than $130 billion since the nation's

founding in 1948. now, a growing number of democrats are calling for conditions on that aid. >> i think we are at the point where president biden has said and i have said and others have said if benjamin netanyahu, prime minister, were to order the idf at scale and erez one , two after hamas and making no provisions for civilians or for humanitarian aid, i would vote to condition aid to israel. i've never said that before. i've never been here before. >> when we talk about tradition, the bottom-line condition has to be full accommodation for the delivery of unitarian aid to the suffering people in palestine. >> yesterday, president biden and secretary of state antony blinken received a letter signed by more than three dozen house democrats urging them to reconsider the decision to authorize an arms package transfer to israel and to

withhold future transfers until there is an investigation into the airstrike that killed those aid workers. my next test signed that letter. joining me now, democratic congress woman of pennsylvania, member of the house for committee. congresswoman dean, thank you for coming to the saturday show. what kind of israel ? >> it is good to be with you. obviously, this week, the egregious, precise attack on aid vehicles carrying world central kitchen aid workers, killing seven of them, has provoked extra ordinary outrage, anger, disappointment, across-the-board. i'm sure it is true also in israel. we have to start with one thing. the enemy here is hamas. it was hamas who attacked israel on october 7th. while we lost these angels, we

have lost more than 200 other aid workers in gaza in the last six months? i was there in israel twice now during this conflict. first on november the 11th and then again in february. we met with unwra, they lost 147. the director of unwra sitting in letitia james , an american military hero, said we have lost more than 137 workers. what do we have to do in terms of conditioning aid? i signed a letter that was drafted by mr. mcgovern. i'm proud to have signed onto it to say we have to take a look at what military munitions are going to israel. after the use of 2000 pound dominant bombs in gaza, so

imprecise, the ability to take out whole buildings is unacceptable. 33,000 people are dead. it is estimated that one half of those are children israel has not told us a number in that that is actually hamas. we've got a tremendous number of civilian deaths. we have the responsibility and the right, frankly, as congress as this administration under the memorandum of security number 20, dated february the eighth, we have the responsibility of oversight and conditioning aid for military use is not discriminate. >> congresswoman, i've been calling the deadly airstrike on world central kitchen a turning point in the u.s. israel relationship and in the relationship between president biden and prime minister benjamin netanyahu. am i overstating things here? >> i'm not sure. i have to tell you, i'm very proud of the president. i spoke with the white house following the call this week

with benjamin netanyahu. referred from the readout that this was a tough phone call. what i agree with the president on is that it is unacceptable for the number of deaths and the death of innocent civilians, not to mention the military and workers, angels. number one, now, a temporary cease-fire to get the hostages out. i called for a bilateral cease- fire february the 28th in order to get the hostages out and he military and aid in number two, what we know the president said, and i'm proud of him for doing it, is to benjamin netanyahu, enable your negotiators, your hostage negotiators to get the hostages out immediately. it baffles me, we've noted tomorrow will mark six months since this horrendous, grievous, grotesque attack. how is it that angela netanyahu

has not been focused singularly on the release of the hostages questioning >> congresswoman, last question for you on this, speaking of the prime minister, a member of his war cabinet has called for early elections. a change in leadership what is needed to bring an end to this war? >> i'm mindful that i am a member of one government. it is not for me to tell israeli citizens what to do. i see in the streets, the pictures you are sharing right now, benjamin netanyahu's prosecution of this war, we can all observe, has been indiscriminate and has not been clear. i am very critical of the prosecution of this war. benny gantz and israeli citizens themselves , and importantly palestinians, need to have elections. we need, ultimately, jonathan, i know you know this and benjamin netanyahu is not

interested in it, a two state solution. the region cries for a two state solution for dignity and sovereignty for two peoples. that is what has to happen. that requires elections both in israel and gaza and palestine, let's not forget the west bank. >> congresswoman madeleine dean, as always, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. joining me now, the u.s. executive director of doctors without borders. thank you for coming to the show. talked about how some members of your own organization have also been killed in gaza, which is why he said the attack on world central kitchen workers is not an isolated instance. talk about the dangers on the ground for humanitarian work. >> we have felt from the beginning that nowhere in gaza is safe. five of my colleagues from doctors without borders were killed. some of them at home or trying

to survive with their families outside of the workplace but others at work, including right at the bedside of patients. we have experienced ourselves working in hospitals that were not militarized, they were full of patients who desperately needed ongoing health care, life-saving assistance. we have seen those hospitals attacked time and again. hospitals should be a haven. hospitals are protected under the geneva convention. hospitals are absolutely essential for people to survive in a war like this and one after the other, they are being taken out. it has reached the point now where there are so many patients, so few hospital beds, so few operating theaters that the situation in the hospitals that are trained to continue to function is absolute chaos. >> the idf says they mistakenly

assumed hamas gunmen were inside the aid vehicle. did you buy that? i read that question because the washington post" has a front page story about how aid workers have been complaining for months about how broken the system is for coordinating with defense forces so that they can deliver humanitarian aid they are trying to get delivered. >> hard for me to say what they had in mind when they picked those particular targets of the world central kitchen group. in our experience, though, the notion of the confliction is not applying in gaza, not since the beginning. it is hollow. our own experience is it is more of a notification system. we let the authorities know and the entity, part of the government, you let them know where you are going to be

working, where your staff will be sheltering, the hospitals you are supporting, the movements you are making, where the ideologies are going, all the things. they acknowledge receipt of the notification and that is it. from our perspective, there's never a sense of safety. we have experienced with all of the attacks on medical infrastructure time and again that what happened to world central kitchen, of course is horrific and we are as outraged and filled with grief and horror over what happened to them. we have also seen it happen too many other organizations, not to mention the kind of attacks that happened to other civilian infrastructures around the gaza strip. >> u.s. executive director of doctors without borders, avril benoit, thank you for coming to the saturday show. coming up, we picked down donald trump's losing streak in court. even though his team is playing the long game in the lease, his new york criminal trial is set to start in the days. why special counsel jack smith could seek to remove

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this week, donald trump's delay tactics failed in three different legal cases. in florida and georgia, judges refused to drop the charges in terms classified documents and election interference cases. and, in new york, the court declined to postpone trumps hush money trial. the traits impeached, four times indicted on 88 counts former president found liable for civil fraud and sexual assault is now asking the judge in the hush money trial to step down. this less than two weeks before the trial starts. good luck with that. this is the second time trump has called for judge merchan's recusal. meanwhile, trump is raising questions about the $175 million bond he just posted in the fraud case. the new york attorney general letitia james wants to know what trump used as collateral

until weather the bank is pouring from his budget. then there was the showdown between special counsel jack smith and trumped project. while judge aileen canon didn't throw out charges this week, smith says she is giving trump an unfair advantage at trial. in a fiery court filing, smith accused aileen canon of repeating trumps baseless claims about the presidential records act in her request for jury ructions from the prosecution and defense lawyers. smith warned that canon is operating on a court fundamentally flawed legal promise and threatened to appeal to a higher court to have her removed from the case. in the midst terms, it would appear the special counsel is exciting don't make me put my baby down. joining me now, msnbc legal analyst, former u.s. attorney , professor at the university of michigan law school, home cohost of the sisters-in-law podcast and author of "attack from within. thank you for being here

barbara mcquade. >> we are a few faces away from that removal happening but there is a showdown about whether donald trump can raise the defense of the presidential records act, which is absolute legal nonsense. it is not a defense whatsoever. what jack smith wants the judge to do is make a decision on this issue so that if he wants to appeal, he can do that. there has to be a pretrial decision to be able to do that. if this gets delayed until after a jury is formed, then the government cannot appeal. the judge did i donald trump's motion to dismiss the case on that basis but but she said that if the concerning is that donald trump may be able to raise this again as a defense at trial. i think jack smith is going to have a problem with that too. i don't this battle is over

just yet. >> was about to ask, do you expect them to follow through on his truck? >> i think the next thing, if i were in his shoes, the next thing i would do is file a motion to preclude any reference whatsoever to the presidential records act. i know she has to make a decision on that. if she wills against him, then i think that is where he raises an appeal. and, possibly a request to remove her as a judge in this case pete >> let's turn to trumps civil fraud case. what can the new york attorney general do if the bond seems sketchy? >> the judge has to approve this. what she is raising there is who is this don hankey from california who has never been registered to provide an appeal bond in the state of new york? i think she is properly coming out who is this, let's make sure this is someone who is legit and the court for a funding about this. as long as the court determines everything is in order, i think this will go through. i think she is properly making sure that the responsibility she has to represent the people of new york is going through the appropriate scrutiny that it should. >> trump has been lashing out all day at his hush money judge

on his social media platform. i can't believe i'm going to say this, he is even saying he is willing to be jailed like nelson mandela. could trumps post today, all of them, lead to an even stricter gag order? >> they could, jonathan. i think this is the kind of stuff that the judge is allowing him to say. if it is simply sort of, you know, political speech that isn't targeting anybody in particular, i think the judge will give him a lot of leeway to say this. the gag order specifically tries to preclude him doing anything that might intimidate witnesses, threaten witnesses, or call into question the motives of the parties here. i think this kind of thing is probably going to be allowed to pass. >> all right, barbara mcquade, thank you for this lightning round conversation about trumps court cases. thank you for coming to the

saturday show as always. up next, a battle for campaign cash. tonight at mar-a-lago, donald trump tries to chip away at his fundraising deficit following president biden's lucrative radio city event and a massive month of campaign donations. what do these numbers mean for the candidates, after the break. e break. because there are people out there who aren't you. a lot of them. and you don't drive like... whoa. i don't want my child being raised by a robot! other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so much to all 50 of my subscribers. nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate.

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tonight, donald trump will try to make up some fundraising ground between his campaign and president biden, which is way ahead. the disgraced former president is headlining a blowout benefit, at palm beach, billionaire john paulson. trump says he has commitments totaling $50 million. the florida fundraiser comes nearly a week after president biden's blockbuster event at radio city musical, where he worked in more than $26 million. trump still has a long way to go in the over all money raised. today, the biden campaign and

dnc announced they raised $90 million in march with the campaign ending the month $192 million cash on hand. in contrast, trump and the rnc combined to raise $65 million in march, ending the month with $93 million cash on hand. that's like a $100 million gap. in an ad released today, biden highlighted a crucial difference between his campaign donors and donald trump's. >> this campaign is scranton versus palm beach. this is a grassroots campaign of nurses and teachers and firefighters and cops versus donald trump and a couple billionaires looking for a tax cut. real people who know the stakes of this election are rolling up their sleeves to pitch in what they can. >> even while running for

reelection, president biden is focused on running the country. in baltimore yesterday, he called on congress to fully fund the rebuilding of the francis scott key bridge, which collapsed last week. biden's call will almost certainly set up a fight through the chaotic house gop. the hot republican majority can't figure out how it will handle funding for ukraine. joining me now, brendan buck, msnbc political analyst, he served as the chief communications advisor to former house speaker paul ryan and press secretary to former house speaker john benner and, critic strategist and former advisor for the obama campaign, amicia cross. trenton, the freedom, is making concessions for spending to rebuild the bridge in baltimore. will the republicans play politics over something that is vital to the nation's economy? >> the freedom park is is making those demands. of course, they will be ignored. at the end of the day, this is

something that is going to happen, whether you are micah johnson or any rank-and-file republican, you know this could happen, something like this could happen in your district at any time. this is a classic thing the freedom caucus does. micah johnson is getting good at doing them. i imagine that is probably what is going to happen here. >> let's talk fundraising. the biden campaign right now has a huge money lead over the trump campaign. what should they be doing, spending most of that money on, the biden folks? >> georgia. we know the biden folks are in this game to win it, we know the battleground states are shaping up very interestingly and some are a little too close for comfort. i would put georgia as number one. referred recent news about the expansion of michigan. michigan has 30 new state offices. georgia needs to have a similar or more structured, higher number. the recognition is that from

the urban centers to the rural areas, there has to be put on the ground, have to be strong outreach to young people, strong outreach to black voters. this campaign is reviving its staff in various places across the country. i would say they have announced the new political director in georgia, there are still several positions that deemed to be filled and i would say that you have to go all in on georgia if you want this. >> i will have to come back to that. the emphasis on georgia is a whole block all by itself. brendan, the new york times published an editorial today: congress to pass more aid to ukraine, saying it will likely sales for the house and senate with bipartisan support speaker johnson's job is in jeopardy if he brings it up for a vote. so, what is he going to do? >> obviously not a great situation if you are micah

johnson. marjorie taylor greene threatening a motion to vacate is entirely about ukraine. that was her sending a signal if you do this, i'm coming after you. for me, is all the more reason for johnson to do it. he needs democrats to save his job at some point. much of the marjorie taylor greene cannot be trusted to keep him in the back pocket. if you want democrats to be there for you, keep can't act like kevin mccarthy. you have to work with them, bring up the thing you know is the right thing to do. micah johnson is surprisingly open about how he sinks this is the right thing to do. he's going to have a lot of pressure. we will learn a lot about micah johnson, whether he's willing to stiff arm marjorie taylor greene. i'm somewhat confident he's going to do it, he's going to put it on the floor, marjorie taylor greene will bring up a motion to vacate and she will lose and that will be good for the house. >> brendan, from your lips to god's ears. let's turn our attention to the back and forth between president biden and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. do you think the president change in tone with the israeli

prime minister will win him favor with the american public, specifically with members of the democratic coalition who have been outraged over the u.s. support of israel and its war with hamas? >> it's going to make them warmer, at least members of the democratic plank. this is a very tough situation, one that no president would want to be in. however, there is nothing, there is no carrot president biden can give to benjamin netanyahu to make him want to abandon this more. this is something he says he's against a two state solution. by his actions, he's full speed ahead in trying to take palestinians off the map. this is something basically violating international law and he's fine doing so. i do think the death of those aid workers has really changed the tone here and it has put a spotlight on something that a lot of advocates have been

calling on president biden to do for a while now. i for one am thankful for the posturing he is taking. i'm hopeful that at some point, because this isn't the first amount of aid workers that have been killed. at some point, there will be restrictions to the funding. quite rightly, it appears we are funding a war that is killing thousands of innocent civilians. >> more than 196 aid workers who have been killed. real quickly because we are out of time but i have to get you on this. house republicans put forth a bill that would rename washington dulles airport after donald trump. yesterday, house democrats were spotted by introducing a bill that would rename a federal prison in florida after trump. real fast, brendan, what do you make of that? >> there was a time in which the house was considered the greatest deliberative body in the world. i think it shows you how quickly we have fallen. these people, republicans and democrats, need to grow up a little bit. have some self respect. this is another terribly interesting thing. >> last word to you, amicia cross, what do you think? >> at this point, i don't think the house republicans can't get any worse.

renaming is very interesting to me. they have been playing jokes this entire time and they are going to do is pay for it at the ballot box. november is not only a vote for biden or trump, it is one for the house. >> i will say this, they change the name of that airport, i don't know if i could go to dulles airport ever again. brandon buck, amicia cross, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. next, an alarming report about donald trump and his allies want to institute stronger antiracism protections for white people. how he plans to do it and who is behind the strategy. don't go anywhere. n't go anywh. that's why my go to is nurtec odt. it's the only migraine medication that can treat and prevent my attacks all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion and stomach pain. now i'm in control.

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this year's presidential election is about choices. donald trump is making it very clear exactly what he will do if reelected, especially when it comes to race and immigration. on the campaign trail, trump has accused migrants of a "border bloodbath," and uses dehumanizing language when he talks about them. >> they are sending prisoners, murderers, drug dealers, mental patients and terrorists, the worst they have in every country all over the world. the democrats, they say please don't call them animals, they are humans. they are not humans, they are animals. >> trump and his allies are threatening to carry out mass deportations, use migrant detention camps and bring back the zero-tolerance policy that put children in cages. this week, trump attended a gala for the director of the family separation program and hasn't ruled out reinstating it. while trump's attacks on asylum-

seekers are racist, there is so much more. have you heard about his plans to uplift only white people? ask use reports trump wants the justice department to rollback protections from people of color to focus on this, nation against whites. trump allies have already been testing this anti-dei remark in court and managed to lock oyens of dollars in pandemic for the four women and minority owned businesses. there's one mastermind behind these policies and his name isn't donald trump. meet stephen miller, former the trump white house advisor, far right extremist plotting trump's nightmarish second term. joining me now, msnbc political contributor , staff writer for "the new yorker," dean of columbia journalism school. also with me, jean guerrero, author of hatemongers, stephen miller, donald trump, and the

white nationalist agenda. thank you very much for coming to the saturday show, jean can help us understand stephen miller's ideology. what is his vision for america? >> is vision is a white nationalist america and the agenda you described is something he's been dreaming about for a very long time. in my book, i crystal miller was radicalized as a teenager by far right provocateurs he believed that racism against black and brown people was not a problem and that the real problem in american society was racism against whites. this is an idea that originated with supreme assists like david duke, who in the 1970s was calling whitman, "the real second-class citizens in america." while back then it was largely rejected and french, in 2024, it is mainstream gop politics thanks to stephen miller. >> jelani cobb, miller's law firm released of his ad in october, 2022. listen to this. >> went into racism against white people become okay?

corporations, airlines, universities all openly disseminate against white americans. racism is always wrong. the left antiwhite bigotry must stop. we are all entitled to equal treatment under law. the floor is yours. >> is interesting. i would point your viewers to a body of scholarly work that examines these very questions about the ways in which antidiscrimination policies can be used against the group that has been subjected to discrimination. or, the group that has historically benefited from the discrimination. the name of that body of scholarship, if you want to guess is critical race theory. so, this is a textbook example of this very thing. i do want to make one point about the earlier question, which is that this is part of a much older tradition. this is the mythology of the lost cause him how confederates

after the end of the civil war envisioned themselves, people who have fought a war for the right to buy, sell, abuse, traffic and exploit human beings, envisioned themselves as the victims. that, but in the immediate aftermath of the war. if you look at the debates over the 1964 civil rights acts, one of the more notable things you hear is this same strain. southern legislator after southern legislator gets up and says that they are opposed to discrimination and therefore they cannot support the 1964 civil rights act because they believe it discriminates against white people. it is the same kind of playbook. this is not a novel development. this is something we've seen for a really long time. >> i was going to jump to immigration but given what jelani cobb just said, how has miller been preparing to overhaul the justice

department? >> family, it has been through his america first legal nonprofit, which has focused on dismantling programs that are meant to benefit historically underrepresented and historically marginalized communities, such as programs benefiting black farmers or women owned and minority owned restaurant and my prediction is that in a second trump term, based on everything miller had been doing through america first legal, we would not only see the department of justice were placed to dismantle affirmative-action programs benefiting people of color across the country, we would also see the creation of an affirmative action agenda focused on benefiting white people. >> what would it mean to lose the justice department as a backstop on safeguarding the civil rights? >> it would be a rearguard merge, no question. what would happen would be a kind of open season for any

kind of equitable policy or practice, anything that has addressed the legacy and impact of unequal treatment, this commission, so on would be formable in that regard. that is what that world look like. >> stephen miller would be at the center of it all. jelani cobb, jean guerrero, thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show. , up, the politics of faith. why some white evangelicals are facing a crisis in the age of donald trump. npr political correspondent sarah mcammond is here to discuss her new book on why she left the religion of her youth and why others are doing the same. stay with us. ay with us. dove is 1/4 moisturizing cream. i've been using dove beauty bar more than 25 years. after seven days, i feel like a brand new woman!

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we are one movement, one people, one family and one glorious nation under god. as you know, the left is trying to shame christians. they try and shame us. i'm a very proud christian, actually. taking the arrows, and taking them for you and i am so honored to take them, you have no idea. november 5th is going to be called something else. you know what it is going to be called? christian visibility day, when christians turn out in numbers that nobody has ever seen before. >> donald trump is ramping up his religious rhetoric in his

presidential rallies. his call for christian visibility day comes in response to president biden's support of transgender day of visibility, which fell on easter this year. he called it, "a total disrespect to christians." trump thinks christians need a day of visibility because they are so invisible? he is playing to evangelical christians, who have been a key part of his political race for nearly a decade. for some evangelicals, trump's election was the tipping point for them. my next guest to scratch the disillusionment she and other women raised in the evangelical world felt, writing, "feelings of shock and anger that the same leaders who ordered us to remain sexually pure until marriage and condemned bill clinton's moral failings in the 1990s would not only to read but embrace and promote trump.

joining me now to talk about her new book, sarah mcammond, author of the acts evangelical. she's also a national political correspondent for npr and co- host on the npr politics podcast. thank you very much for coming to the saturday show, sarah. what are your thoughts on trumps religious messages during his rally and call for christian visibility day question >> that call is in response to transgender visibility day, recognized the white house on march 31st. it has been for several years, it happened to fall on easter sunday this year. some conservative christians said that was an attack on their faith, even though it was a coincidence. trumps call for christian visibility day is part of a much longer history of rhetoric and get evangelical christians. evangelicals are a stricken part of the preparation, white christians are in general. but, they are a major voting block for republicans that have been for a long time.

white evangelicals are the largest and one of the most reliable voting blocs for republicans. trump knows that and he tailors his messages to white evangelicals. many times, this resonates with those kinds of messages. >> i am just wondering, why do you think evangelicals support trump, in spite of his personal and legal history that my washington post colleague characterized as, "a compendium of the seven deadly sins. " >> there are a couple of reasons. one is pragmatic. trump promised to deliver on some of the long-standing political and ideological parodies of white evangelicals. the most prominent example, of course, was overturning roe versus wade. white evangelicals are one of the groups, the group that is most opposed to abortion rights. that has been a rallying cry for decades at a rate in the book. trump promised to do that, he

succeeded. along with naming three conservative justices who voted to overturn roe v. wade. they see him as the one who has delivered and will continue to deliver on their goals. they also see him, again, with something like that, like we need christians to be more visible or the trump bible when he went on to social and started selling these god bless the usa bibles. also with his rhetoric about a declining, america as a declining christian nation. meeting to bring christianity back. those messages resonate with evangelicals. they see him as one who deliver on the goals and also as a champion of their movement, regardless of his behavior. there is polling that suggests multiple evangelicals support trump. they don't think he is a religious person but i don't think that is their primary concern. >> in your book, mentioned, "many asked evangelicals report relief after giving up the struggle to affirm doctrines that violate their deepest intuitions about morality and, often, reality." can you tell us more about this feeling and is the feeling that inspired, is this the feeling

that inspired you to write your book? >> it is important that people leaving went evangelicalism is happening in the context of a larger religious decline across the board. evangelicalism is particularly important as a voting block for republicans. you look at white catholics, they are 50-50 republicans and democrats. white haven jon echols overwhelmingly vote for republicans. this particular movement away from living religiosity is clinically salient. i talk in the book about my own experience, what happened long before the trump campaign. and, the experiences of lots of other people in front across online who have used the term acts evangelical to describe the process of leaving. for many, there are a host of reasons. some are political, some have to do with the way their churches talk about women or

lgbtq people. the book is about the process of rethinking what you believe, what you've been told and figuring out who you want to be in the world. >> quickly, but do you hope people get from reading your book? >> i know people who have experienced their own religious lesson will resonate with it and people who are confused about white evangelicals, i hope it will provide new insight into what that culture is like. >> i'm going to crack the painting on my copy as soon as this show is over. sarah mcammond, thank you for coming to the saturday show. congratulations. we will be right back with more of the saturday show on msnbc. msnbc. with mild-to-moderate covid-19 and a high-risk factor for it becoming severe. it does not prevent covid-19. my symptoms are mild now, but i'm not risking it. if it's covid, paxlovid. paxlovid must be taken within the first five days of symptoms, and helps stop the virus from multiplying in your body. taking paxlovid with certain medicines can lead to serious or life-threatening side effects or affect how it or other medicines work, including hormonal birth control. it's critical to tell your doctor about all the medicines you take because certain tests or changes in their dosage may be needed.

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that will do it for me. thank you for watching. be sure to tune in tomorrow to the sunday show when congressman jerry connolly of virginia joins us live in studio to preview big funding decisions next week when the house returns including aid to ukraine and israel with speaker mike johnson's job on the line. plus, i will also let you speak with congresswoman barbara lee to get her take on major developments on abortion rights and how it could all play out in november's election. that is tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. remember to follow us, you can also catch clips of the show on youtube. dragging me through that night, it haunts me. i didn't know that people were capable of that. they have destroyed the rest of my life. >> reporter: intelligent,