an unholy mess. during the most sacred week for christians, donald trump peddles a $60 bible while doing everything that seems unchristian. reverend dr. jackie lewis and historian ruth benner are here to discuss the real meaning of easter and why trumps rambling on religion are just another page out of their autocratic playbook the trump trials, he is facing a deadline for a $175 million bond and his fraud trial and is still going after the judge in his hush money trial. cristin greenberg is here to talk about why the current gag order on trump may not be enough to silence and. and, a timely lol from snl. >> you're going to love my new, and i would say even better, bible. it comes with everything you love in the bible, which

primarily concerns jesus. i kept waiting for the bunny to show up. >> this is the sunday show. thank you for joining us this easter sunday. a day deeply rooted in tradition and faith. for christians around the world, easter is the holiest day on the calendar, commemorating the resurrection of jesus christ. it is also a time for hope, renewal, and peace, among the themes in the pope francis easter address in st. peter's square. the pope reaffirmed his calls for an immediate cease-fire in gaza, and the release of all israeli hostages, while also calling for peace in ukraine, haiti, and other global conflicts. here in the united states, donald trump marked his easter weekend with a much different, more divisive message, blasting

president biden for claimant march 31st as transgender day of visibility, which has been observed on this date every year since 2009, but coincidentally happened to fall on easter sunday this year. the white house pushed back saying, quote, as a christian who celebrate easter with family, president biden stands for bringing people together and upholding the dignity and freedoms of every american. and therein lies the difference between biden and -- an actual man of faith who goes to church virtually every sunday, and trump, who quotes himself in christianity, not only to use religion as a weapon, but also as a blasphemous moneymaking opportunity. you know where i'm headed with this. trump is now hawking a god bless the usa bible, that includes lyrics from a song by lee greenwood, the constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence, and the pledge of

allegiance. that's right, for the bargain price of $59.99 plus tax, you, too, can get your hands on a maga edition bible >> all americans need a bible in their home, and i have many. it's my favorite book. we love god. we have to protect anything that is pro-god. i think you all should get a copy of god bless the usa bible, now, and help spread our christian values with others. >> what in the separation of church and state -- look, we all know trump don't know nothing bout no bible, which he calls his favorite book. how do we know? watch this. >> the bible means a lot to me, but i don't want to get into specifics. >> you don't have a favorite verse? >> i don't want to do that. >> older new testament? >> probably equal. >> two corinthians 317, right?

that's the whole ballgame. >> is that your bible? >> it's a bible. >> i go to church about as often as trump appears to, and even i know it is second corinthians. what is even more insulting about trumps bible thumping grift, besides being absolutely clueless about christianity, is that he has lived his life in contradiction to the principles of his professed faith. in the "washington post", quote, trumps biography is very nearly a compendium of the seven deadly sins. the man is a twice impeached, four times indicted on 88 counts for president. he has been found liable for fraud, and sexual abuse, and he is a thrice married accused adulterer, who allegedly had a dalliance with a store start he allegedly paid off to buy her

silence in an alleged affair. he denies any wrongdoing of any kind. and then there is this ridiculous comparison made by trump and his supporters, the one which equates trump with jesus christ himself. just today, he shared a link on social media, to an article by the washington times, headline, the crucifixion of donald trump. and don't forget, back in october, trump shared an ai generated courtroom sketch which depicted jesus, sitting next to him at one of his trials. all this reminds me of the bible verse, matthew, chapter 7, verse 15. beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. or, for those of you who are more secular, jesus, take the wheel. joining me now, reverend dr. jackie lewis, senior minister of the middle collegiate church, and author of fierce love, a bold pastor for us if

courage and rule breaking kindness that can heal the world and ruth pena, author of stroman, mussolini to the present. thank you both much for coming back to the sunday show. reverend lewis, talk about the meaning of easter and why trumps messaging may be particularly offensive to christians today? >> jonathan, i'm still recovering from your monologue. that was so fierce. this is such a powerful day in christian tradition. the story of god coming all the way down in the midst of us, and i have to say, paul says, when i was a child, i thought like a child, when i was a younger person, i thought easter meant the humankind was so awful, so bad, so unworthy, that god had to send god's son into the world, and he had to be killed so that we might live. i no longer believe that. there are a lot of traditions

about that, called substitutionary atonement. what i think is true is that easter is about how, even in the midst, jonathan, of suffering and death, and devastation all around the globe, love has the last word. the death of jesus on the cross was not the last word in that story. love rose up, from the grave, and rose up to teach us how to love. that love is eternal, and love never ends. >> reverend lewiston, what is your reaction to trump demanding an apology from president biden for proclaiming today as transgender day of visibility, even though it always falls on march 31st. >> first of all, if trump was reading the papers or being a human being, he would know that is true. we don't change the date because it happens to fall on easter but i think it is a miracle that it happens to fall

on easter. as the christian faith should be, and is, about welcoming all the people, even the ones we find strange. i am so proud that president biden said those words about transgender visibility, in our congregation, we wrapped our easter message into that, trans folks are children of god, just like i am and you are and absolutely beloved in the beautiful perfection. i am glad for easter and trans day of visibility showing up at the same time. it seems fitting to me. >> amen. ruth, why should we be alarmed by trump selling this maga bible, and exploiting religion in this manner. >> first of all, i am honored to be here, with you, and reverend lewiston on this special day. in terms of trumps bible study, his first wife's, ivanka, says he has two in his bedroom, one has his own art of the deal and the other was a book of his

speeches. the bible was not there. unfortunately, it is often that the most in pious and depraved people, in the history of leadership, are the ones who are acclaimed as saviors of the nation, starting with mussolini, the serial and dictator, who was an atheist, and he was the one who made the deal with the vatican, on up to victor arbon, who poses as the savior of christendom in europe, but has actually persecuted closed 300 churches because their religious heads were not aligned with his politics. so, what happens is that certain kinds of authoritarian do very well, and they make these bargains, like the evangelicals apparently have done, and orthodox dues, with trump, and progressive faith traditions get marginalized or persecuted, that is what the history of authoritarian tells

us. >> the website where trump is selling that the bible says this is the only bible endorsed by trump. trump continues to be very popular among white evangelical christians. is having the support of a religious community vital to an autocrats hold on power or sense of legitimacy? >> unfortunately, it is. because, these are corrupt people who have to surround themselves with an aura of holiness, that they are the saviors, and this business of him being a martyr, he is being indicted, so he uses this kind of religious tinged language, which allows people of faith -- it is familiar to them, and so, this is one of the oldest authoritarian scams. the idea that these depraved people are actually going to save the nation. with trump, there is an overlay

that he is a marketer, and he has no ideals other than power and making money. very sadly, a bible just becomes another prop for him, another thing to sell. >> reverend lewis, i will have you lift us up, we are living through a time of deep divisions, where our democracy and freedoms are on the line, wars around the world are causing extreme devastation, what is your message to those who are not feeling hopeful this easter? >> totally understandable, with all of the violence in sudan, the congo, haiti, gaza, here in the united states. here is what i would encourage us. we are the ones we have been waiting for. easter is about the coming of god into the world, and the survival of love over death, but it is also about each of us. today, i preached about mary magdalene, who was, by the way, not a prostitute, folks. another corruption of story, but the first disciple to actually go and preach. she saw jesus and he said go

until your family that you have seen me and i have gone to our god and our father picks her friends, like you and like me, we are called to be bearers of the good news. and we are smarter than drinking the kool-aid that trump is a part of the good news. evangelical friends know deep in their soul that this is not true. i am asking you to be a theologian and in your own life, read the real bible, and talk to each other in community and study the scriptures that will hold, whatever your tradition is, and be inspired by those words of resilience and hope and love. god is love, god is love, love, period . all the rest is commentary. some of it wrong. >> reverend dr. jackie lewis, what a fantastic way to start this sunday show today. thank you both very much for being on the show today. >> thank you, jonathan. >> thank you.

next, donald trump is pushing more legal boundaries, launching another social media attack against a judges daughter. i will speak with msnbc legal analyst kristi greenberg about the dangers of trumps tactics. plus, a rough week for two of trumps codefendants in the georgia election interference case, who are also facing disbarment for their role in trying to subvert democracy. how that is going for them, after the break. you are watching the sunday show on msnbc. nbc. dreds on care with liberty mutual. we got a bit of a situation. [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ in theaters now. detect this: living with hiv, craig learned he can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why he switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: leo learned that most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2.

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new york prosecutors are asking for protection against donald trump and his hush money trial, after he lashed out at the daughter of the judge. manhattan da alvin bragg is urging the court to, quote, clarify trumps gag order, and stop him from attacking the relatives of anyone involved in the case, writing in a filing to the judge, quote, the fear is not hypothetical. in the course of preparing for trial, multiple potential witnesses have already expressed great concern to us about their own safety, and that of their family members. trump has already challenged the das request, insisting the judges daughter should not be under the gag order. trumps other new york-based legal proceeding, he is running out of time to post the $100

million bond in his fraud case. a judge pushed back the deadline and the amount combos, but he still has to pay up by thursday. in trumps election interference case, in georgia, he is asking an appeals court, to remove fulton county da, fani willis, from that trial. willis was able to remain on the case after the special prosecutor stepped down. meanwhile, trumps enablers and fulton county codefendants are at risk of losing their law licenses. on march 27th, california judge recommended disbarment for john eastman, the far right attorney behind trumps a collector scheme. at a disciplinary hearing here in washington the dc, x justice to permit official jerry clark repeatedly took the fifth, rather than defend his role in trumps crew attempt. clerks a lawyer even offered to take questions for him, so he would not sound guilty or end up on msnbc. >> to make a record, while avoiding us all on nbc for no

good reason. let me affirm that we will be taking the fifth to those questions, so that would avoid the blanket assertion problem, the adverse inference problem, the appeal problem and the msnbc problem. >> too late, kind sir. smile, you and your client are on msnbc, for good reason. joining me now, msnbc legal analyst and former federal desiccator, kristi greenberg. she has served as a deputy chief of the fdny criminal division. thank you for being here. i love your reaction to john eastman and jeffrey clark facing disbarment. how could that impact your defense in the georgia case? >> it would affect their defense if they were to take the stand, and if they were to testify. anything they would say under oath publicly could be used against them in a later criminal case, which is why you are seeing them, i think, wisely take the fifth and not

speak to avoid exactly that problem. turning to trumps gag order in new york, do you expect the judge to close the loophole that made it possible for trump to attack the judges and family members? >> i don't. the terms of the gag order have a carveout, so, they are allowing for criticism of the court, of the judge, as well as of the district attorney. the gag order really tracks the same gag order that was upheld by the dc court of appeals in the january 6th case in dc. so, by carving out those entities, in addition, it also carves that family members of those entities. i think you will see the judge confirmed that family members of the judge, and family members of the da are not uncovered by this gag order

that he can make public statements about them. but i also think that you will have him -- you know, issue something of a warning, and perhaps an amendment to the terms of his pretrial release, in saying that, you cannot make that threats against anyone, whether it is the da or the judge or family members, anyone, because we are getting dangerously close to that line being crossed, here. he is posting pictures of the judges daughter, not just criticizing her for having worked for democratic candidates, and in saying that the judge has somehow been compromised as a result of that, which, by the way, the new york state dish erie advisory committee has already found that does not make the judge impartial, and therefore, he should not recuse himself in this case, but, if trump wants to criticize him about that, he can under the gag order. but, we are getting dangerously close to going beyond criticism, because what trump is really trying to do is inflame his base, and really

put a target on his back, and that is not okay. i do think the church will -- the judge will address it, i don't think it will be in the form of this gag order because i think they will try to stay close to that dc gag order, but i do think that he will address it, and perhaps give a strong warning and make the change to the release conditions and notes that he will enforce those conditions, if they are broken, meaning, if he does anything like threaten his daughter, or incite violence in any way, that he is going to impose an externally strong sanction. what could that look like, under the law? it is either a maximum of $1000 of fines, which is nothing for trump, or it could be up to 30 days in jail, which would be meaningful, and so, i think that he needs to come out strong tomorrow, that he is not averse to really oppose imposing that kind of severe sanction, if he continues down this path. >> how many bibles would he have to sell if he got a $1000

sanction? trump is still liable for a total of $454 million in that civil fraud case. why do you think the appeals court is letting him post only $175 million in bond by this thursday. >> that is the $175 million question. they didn't explain why. it really defies logic, as to why they would have reduced the amount of the bond. this is a defendant, and i attended much of that trial, his whole defense was, i am too rich to defraud anyone. these banks wanted to cultivate a relationship with me, because i am so wealthy. you know, you had don jr. going for his testimony, essentially a timeshare presentation in each of the iconic assets and properties that were a part of the trump business empire. it is an odd thing to have a defense about how wealthy you are, and then, when it comes time to pay, you don't have the money.

so, that is problematic, to say the least but it is not clear why they would have, under those circumstances, for this defendant, with that defense, reduce the bond. he actually said, just a day or two before, that he had 500 million dollars in cash to pay. clearly, that wasn't true. again, this is not somebody who deserves any kind of reduction, because who bears that risk? the people of new york do. if he is not able to pay it. it is a case where the judges really should have explained their reasoning, and even explaining it, i don't know that we would have agreed with that but they should at least have explained it. >> we are already over, but i can't let you go without asking, former january 6 committee cochair liz cheney had a message to the supreme court, as it considers trumps unity claim. listen. >> i think it is very important

that the supreme court recognize that what he is doing is a delaying tactic, and that the american people -- it cannot be the case that a president of the united states can attempt to overturn an election, and seize power, and that our justice system is incapable of holding a trial, of holding him to account, before the next election. that cannot be the case. >> what is your sense of the timeline at this point? >> i think, unfortunately, it will be the case. the supreme court had every opportunity, here, to take this up weekly, and move expeditiously, and at every turn, they have not done so. so again, i didn't have a lot of faith that this trial will happen before the election. they could have expedited the briefing, back in december, they could even have expedited

it now, when it was brought up just a month or so ago, and at every turn, they have declined. so, unfortunately, i think we will see that trial before the election. >> kirsten greenberg, thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. coming up, it is that time again. signing off with my panel to the latest news bites, including more of snl's parody of donald trump's latest act as bible salesman, in the real- life rebuke for senator rafael warnock, an actual pastor. you don't want to miss this, you are watching the sunday show on msnbc. msnbc. rash could also disrupt your work and time with family. shingles could also lead to long—term, debilitating nerve pain that can last for months or even years. if you're over 50, the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. (♪♪) and as you age, your risk of developing shingles increases. (♪♪) don't wait. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles today. (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine.

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clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. that's right, it's easter, the time of year the where i can bear myself to jesus christ, that's just the thing i do now, people seem to be okay with it, so i will keep doing it. and if you think that this is a bad look, imagine how weird it would be if i started selling bibles. well, i'm selling bibles. look at this beautiful bible, made from 100% bible. >> you just have to laugh to

keep from crying. that was james austin johnson on saturday night live last night, offering his take on donald trump's new business venture, selling bibles. joining me now, host of the fast politics podcast, matt dowell, author of revelations on the river, and eugene daniels, political white house correspondent, and book co- author, all three are msnbc political analysts. okay, so, we saw that. sending up of trump hawking his own bibles. let's hear what senator rafael warnock had to say about the trump endorsed bibles. >> the bible does not need donald trump's endorsement. donald trump is doing what he has always done, and this time, it is a risky bet, because, the folks who buy those bibles might actually open them up, where the says things like that

shall not lie, thou shall not bear false witness, where it warns about wolves, dressed up in sheep's clothing. i think you ought to be careful, this is risky business for somebody like donald trump. >> i would love to get molly and matt, y'all's reaction to this craziness. molly, you first. >> i mean, you know, rafael warnock is the preacher at martin luther king church, right? the guy actually does know what he is talking about. i would assume it is pretty offensive to him. you know, i am not particularly religious, i am jewish, so i can only imagine how offensive it is to people who are actually religious, catholics and christians, but you know, republicans seem, not so interested in that park they

spent the whole weekend attacking biden, because of transmissibility day, on the same day of easter, because it is always on march 31st. so, i do think there was -- you know, there seems to be no alliance. you know? there seems to be no -- it just seems to be that the far right does not care that biden is this religious catholic and trump has all these marriages. it just seems like they don't care, it is phony. >> met with love your view also. i would love your view of all of this. >> it's got more gray than the last time i grew my beard. happy easter to everyone, i am a christian, i grew up catholic, i went to church this morning, i heard a great message from the minister about, love conquers hate and light over darkness, it is offensive. it is incredibly offensive.

when donald trump holds up the bible, it reminds me of an odd combination of the movie, a face in the crowd, and i recognize anyone who has not seen that movie from the 50s, it is a great perspective on exactly what we are faced with today. every single thing donald trump does offends the message of the gospels in my view. jesus knocked over the tables and the temples where the money changers were, donald trump speaks and is the most divisive cruel person in the history of the presidency, and i would say it is the exact opposite of what jesus's messages were. to me, it speaks to the rot that exists among the christian nationalist in this country, who believe in a prosperity gospel that you are supposed to get rich even though jesus had

a message in that rich people. but it is incredibly revealing that the evangelicals in this country and christian nationals totally support the sky, and support his message in trying to hawk things, because that is what they are doing in their lives and that many of their churches. it is such a revelatory -- to user religious term, a revelatory thing, donald trump does this and is backed by certain people of faith, it exposes the rot that exists in faith community in america. >> i will switch gears, coming back to the secular world and the political world, because, you know, stuff is happening in that building over there, on the house side but there is a lot of conversation. speaker mike johnson is in trouble, with marjorie kayla green and the motion to vacate, now the spotlight is on democrats. democrats, what are you all going to do, when the time comes, and you have to vote or

not vote for mike johnson? two undemocratic members of the house are on separate shows. fungus and, of california was on fox news sunday, thomas and gerry connolly of virginia was on with alex witt on msnbc. listen to, and then connolly, and listen to what they have to say about what they were would do, if they had to to save mike johnson. >> i would consider it under two conditions. if we get aid into ukraine, to stand up for putin, and let's get the $600 million to rebuild the bridge in baltimore. >> to reward him because he finally brings up a bill that will pass with 300 votes, that's his job. that is not doing us a favor that has to be rewarded. so, i am with those who say that we don't owe him anything, he owes us something. >> the thing here that they have in common is that senator

connor is saying give me funding for baltimore and ukraine, then connolly is saying, you should be giving us ukraine as a matter of course. what will happen. >> there are a lot of people in both of those camps, right? we want to get things from you in order to save you, mike johnson, from being the next kevin mccarthy, but also, do your job, we don't care. the only opinion that will really matter at the end of the day is hakeem jeffries. right? he is the caucus -- he is strong, he learned from nancy pelosi, and knowing what his team used to be doing, and also getting that permission to go out and say, i am not going to do this, while also whipping the votes to get what they want. to have kind of already said that they are okay with saving him because the people who would come next, in their view, will be much worse than mike johnson. that is something that

democratic leadership has said over and over, right? he is much further right than kevin mccarthy, and the person after that is probably going to be much further right than him. and so, they are having those conversations. it is also not completely clear is marjorie kayla green will pull the trigger on her motion to vacate in the way that she did. just kind of sitting there as an open threat. mike johnson is in actual trouble, because they have proven over and over again -- that they don't care about their leadership in the house freedom caucus. more and put in the, some of them don't really care about governing. >> well, right. community, a lot of the sex in the house freedom caucus or just a general republican conference, they were sent to washington to blow things up. >> you, to gum up the works. >> okay, you were kind of in my analogy. don't go anywhere, we will stick around to the latest reaction to last week including one republican congressman

talking about ending the war in gaza quickly, just like nagasaki and hiroshima. i am shaking my head. we will talk about it on the other side. other side.

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now you're the bird stuck in the attic. my panel is back with me, molly, matt -- i am laughing, because i cannot believe what i'm about to show you. this is congressman tim walberg in a monday town hall meeting. just listen to what he has to say about israel's assault on gaza. >> we shouldn't be spending a dime on humanitarian aid. it should be like nagasaki and hiroshima. >> this is a statement from congressman walberg. i used a metaphor to convey the the need

for both israel and ukraine to win their wars as safely as possible without putting american troops in harms way. matt, i would love all of you to give me your reaction to this, matt, let's start with you that we know what that means , when you use nagasaki and hiroshima. >> there are so many parts of this that are so disturbing, first of all, that he considers bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki a highlight of american history, that he considers us being the only country that used a nuclear weapon during world war ii, when people can argue over whether or not it shortened the war, or whatever, but it is not something we should be proud of. the second thing is, he might as well have used genocide of the native americans, the same sort of philosophy, which is, let's accomplish our goals, and let's have somebody get what they want by any means necessary, and that is what the republic and party has become.

it is a complete, ends justify the means and i don't think he meant it as a metaphor. i think he meant it as real. >> molly? >> i mean, it is just completely insane, and despicable thing to say, and you know, it is not so out of character. a lot of these house republicans say stuff like this, but it is just, you know, -- i mean, use of the bomb was one of the darkest moments in american history. and, to compare -- it is -- what matt was saying, it is layer upon layer of dysfunction , tragedy, horror, not anything anyone wants, to hear any politician say pics but right. he needs to go see oppenheimer, so he can see the consequences of what he is saying. eugene, are these folks still on recess next week or are they back, and will anyone say

anything to congressman walberg about what he said? >> maybe, but probably no one in leadership, right? the fact of the matter is that a lot of the republican conference just says whatever they want, and it does not seem to be with repercussions, because they seem to be moving the conference, leadership moving the conference along, and i will say, adding to what was just said, there are a lot of examples in american history, in world history, in books and novels, that show a good metaphor for ending something quickly and safely, and this would not be one of them. that had nothing to do with the nuclear bomb. >> right but the other despicable thing that he said was, you know, i think he said in there, we shouldn't spending a dime on humanitarian aid. folks, we have got to go, molly, matt, eugene, thank you all for being here. still to come, everything

does not happen for a reason, my conversation with arthur brian class, his new book examines how history is driven by flukes. you will be amazed by some of these examples after the break. the break. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. anyway, we got a bit of a situation here. ♪♪ uh-huh. uh-huh. ♪♪ [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ ghostbusters: frozen empire. in theaters now. lowering bad cholesterol can be hard, even with a statin. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50% and keep it low with 2 doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, and chest cold. ask your doctor about twice-yearly leqvio.

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can alter the world around us. well, a new book, fluke, chance, chaos, and why everything we do matters, gives extraordinary insight into how our world works, and how random events can effect our futures. i have the opportunity to sit down with the author, brian class, to discuss his inspiration behind the book, including his personal fluke story. >> welcome back to the sunday show. >> thanks for having me. >> what inspired the book? >> i think there is a sort of feeling that we all have, that the world is falling apart all the time, faster than ever before, and i also think that there is this tendency we have, as humans, to stitch together a neat and tidy story to explain why things happen. and my argument in the book is that, actually, there is a lot more randomness and chaos that can help us make sense of how the world works. this book is trying to correct this idea that everything always happens for a reason. sometimes, things just happen, and i also think that we have engineered a world where we are more prone to flukes and things

falling apart faster than ever before. >> okay, let's take that first part, because, you have a personal story that relates to that. talk about that. >> it is a story of a tragedy from 1905, a little farmhouse in wisconsin, a woman has a mental breakdown, probably postpartum depression, although they would not have called at that at the time. unfortunately, she ends up killing her four children and taking her own life but the husband comes home and finds the family dead. the reason this is in the introduction is because this is my great-grandfathers first life. he later remarried my great- grandmother but i found this out in my mid-20s, and quite literally, i would not exist if not for these children being killed, but you would not be listening to me. and this is chaos theory, right? the fact that 119 years later, this tragedy has led to this conversation, we often write these things out, but the world works in mysterious ways, where you have extremely bizarre ripple effect through the mists of time.

>> now, talk about politics. it certainly feels like everything is falling apart, and it feels like, in some instances, by design. >> i think there are a few things that we have done in order to make it more likely that the world will feel like it is falling apart, and part of that is that we have optimized the absolute limits. my favorite example is the suez canal boats, lodged in the suez canal and caused $54 billion of damage with one gust of wind twisting about sideways. we design systems that are so brittle, that when anything goes wrong and any noise comes into the system, things can fall apart very quickly. i also think it is important to think about in modern politics. we know some speculation, the moment trump decided to run was when he was joked about by barack obama in 2011 at the white house correspondents dinner. but also when you look at the map of georgia, one of the crucial states, there is a

little sweep in county level election results, you can see on the map and that is basically the coastline, from an ancient inland sea, 65 million years ago, where phytoplankton settled around that coastline, the soil became extremely rich and when the slave trade got started, that is where people set up plantations, and the demographic manifestation of that today, that is where a lot of the black voters in georgia are clustered, and those are some of the counties that ended up carrying 2020 for joe biden in that state, and also, the senate for the democrats. you can visualize it, through from an ancient inland sea in the cretaceous period . we pretend it is just a to be with five variables that make sense of everything but the world is swayed more by flukes than we can imagine. >> you just rocked my world with that example. you know, you take the view, and it comes through, in both answers you just gave, that we control nothing, but influence everything. expand on that. >> yeah, this is one of the uplifting aspects of the book, there is all this chaos, there is all this randomness, and that means that this illusion of control we are told we have,

the american dream is built on the solution, it is not true. but when what we do have is influence. our actions ripple outwards in unprintable ways. so everything that we do has unintended consequences. and intended consequences, sometimes. the fact that every joyful of moment of my life is derived from this mass murder hundred years ago. in the opening story of a book, there's a story of a vacation a couple takes to kyoto japan in 1986. 19 years later, the husband is the secretary of war and he takes kyoto off the target list. the reason that hiroshima was destroyed instead of kyoto is because of of a vacation one couple took in 1986. visa stories abound throughout politics but also understanding the ways that flicks affect our own lives. >> one thing that you say, that to touch on is, when bad things

happen, people say, well, that must be what god intended, and you would posit, what about the good things that happen, can we say that as well? >> yeah, psychologically, we are to explanations of randomness when bad things happen. and , wecalamities happen, you diagnosed with cancer, somebody breaks up with you, there has to be a reason. we have no problem accepting random positive events. people win the lottery and say i just got lucky. causality operates the same way. it's not like cause and effect of different models depending on whether it is positive or negative news. i think this is something where we need to make room in our lives for understanding that sometimes, there is randomness, and if we pretend otherwise, we can make some quite significant decision making mistakes. the lessons are important when navigating an uncertain world. >> the name of the book is a fluke, chance, chaos, and why everything that we do matters. thank you very much for coming back to the sunday show. >> thank you for having me on.

that will do it for me, today. thank you for watching. i will be back next saturday and sunday at six a clock p.m. eastern. follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, and threads using the handle, you can also catch clips of the show on youtube. s or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. in a survey, 92% of current users said

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