from the garden state, she gets to pick the stories, and tonight, i am especially grateful for chuck scarborough. we say here all the time, local news matters. new yorkers are especially lucky that we've had the best for the last 15 years. congratulations, chuck, this phenomenal milestone. i can't wait to watch you next. on that note, i wish you all a very, very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you in new york at the end of tomorrow. tomorrow. right now, the justice system is moving when it comes to donald trump, but it is moving slowly. we saw more evidence of that again today. while the wheels of justice turn at their own frustrating pace, we want to spend some time talking to people to saw and heard with donald trump did in these various cases up close.

we can hear from them right now, so that's what we are going to do tonight. former trump attorney michael cohen is standing by, as is former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson. but i do want to start in new york city. the tale today of two trump trials we saw play out. first, there was a major development in what is often shorthanded as a hush money raised. but is it actually interference case? given, as a reminder, trump falsified business records to silence an adult film star during his campaign. with donald trump sitting in the courtroom today, they set the start date of that child april 14th. that does come after a bit of a delay due to a massive document dump are the department of justice. that happened just days before the trial was supposed to start. but we very well may see the first criminal trial of a former president in just three weeks. also today in the new york civil fraud case, an appeals court ruled that trump has 10

additional days to post a reduced bond of $175 million. that is, of course, less than half of the full judgment that was due today. and according to the new york times, the $175 million bond is roughly the amount that trump's lawyers had argued was the maximum penalty he could have possibly owed. a potential sign that the court believes the $454 million judgment was. that's a pretty big reprieve for the guy who, just this morning, woke up facing the very real possibility of a frozen bank account and seized assets. that could have included his westchester golf course, is florida social club, or his beloved new york trump tower. and what really struck me about all of this is just how ironic it is that a guy who has railed against a two tiered system of justice repeatedly has been

afforded the kind of leniency that no one else would ever receive. i mean, of course there is a two tier justice system in this country. one in desperate need, by the way, of reform. but it is definitely not tiered in the way donald trump is describing. he is implying that he is the one who is treated worst, when actually, the opposite was true. just consider that under new york state law, attorney general lakisha james could've enforced the nearly $500 million against him last month. but she granted him a 30 day grace period to front the money before the appeals court intervened. i could keep going here, and i will for a little bit. in florida, the trump appointed judge overseeing the documents case has shown him such favoritism, she's been reviewed twice by a higher court. she is, at this time, moving at a snails pace now and has yet to decide when that trial will even begin. anyone who knowingly and improperly would likely a faced travel restrictions be forced to submit their passport or be put in jail. but not donald trump.

likewise, the supreme court hit the pause button in the election interference case so they can take up the absurd argument that it president should be able to do whatever he wants, even assassinate a rival. justice for trump in that case is delayed indefinitely, the people who listened to his lives, have faced prison sentences. hundreds of them. but not donald trump. back in new york, a trial date was circled today, that was a big deal. and the trump strongly rejected their arguments to delay. we were supposed to be covering the start of that trial today, and we are not. so now trump is not the victim of a two tiered system of justice in this country. he's been a beneficiary. there's one system for the powerful, wealthy, and well- connected like donald trump, and an entirely different system for everyone else. joining me now is michael cohen who is a former attorney for donald trump and a key witness in the manhattan case.

he's the host of the mea culpa and political beat down podcast. also with us is kristi greenberg. and msnbc legal analyst and former deputy chief of the fdny criminal division. the perfect people to break this down for all of us. you were in the courtroom today. you describe the judge as, quote, coming in hot. explain how the judge kind of got this back on track today. >> well, so in january, trumps legal team requested documents and they produced about 200,000 pages of documents. trumps legal team that goes bananas and says, we got to dismiss the case. discovery violations for the prosecutors, on the german trial. donald trump lost all of those motions decisively today, because the law says the d.a.s office needs to disclose documents that are relevant and within their custody control and possession. these documents were not relevant. the bizet's office was asked how are they relevant, and they said less than 300 of those

200,000. trumps team hemmed and hard. they couldn't really answer. they said tens of thousands. these were bank records that had nothing to do with the case. special counsel office reports had nothing to do with the case. and then the question came, well, all these documents from st ny, where these in the control of the d.a.s office? is that really your argument, todd blanche? you were a prosecutor for 10 years? and he said, no, they weren't within my control. either trump or the d.a.s office could've asked for these documents at any time. they knew that. and trumps team made the decision. they said we are going to hold onto this. were going to ask you at the last minute. why did they do that? it's obvious they wanted to torpedo the trial date. the judge got really upset at various points, and you noted that these were really serious allegations against not only the prosecutors, but him as being complicit. and basically said, we are

getting this train back on the tracks. so not only did donald trump lose here. i think you really saw, yet again, another lawyer for donald trump loses credibility in front of the court and the public today. >> as christie does very articulately outlined, we are at a point where the judge said, no more of this. but we have been so focused, michael, on the delays and the timing. we lose focus sometimes on what this is actually about. you are a key witness here for people who might have forgotten. tell us what this case is really about and what the jury will hear from you when the time finally comes? >> yeah, those are all questions that i'm pretty sure that the manhattan district attorney prosecutors would prefer that i not get into, so i would definitely like to keep that one off to kristi. but if i can say something about what she just said, which is accurate, the manhattan district attorney asked for these records from the southern district of new york over one

year ago. and what they received from the southern district of new york, they turned over to the prostic uterus. so i understand why the judge acted the way he did as it related to todd blanche. and it was rightfully so. another issue is, if you notice what todd blanche and the entire trump team are so persistent at, is trying to attack me, my credibility, to try to figure out a way how to impugn, again, my reputation for the sole purpose of either delaying this trial further, or having it knocked off the calendar altogether, which is just, you know, wishful thinking. >> you're not going to give us a preview of your testimony, but we do know what this trial is about. me ask you something different. the judge last week basically rejected trumps motion seeking to bar your testimony on the upcoming trial. they tried to do that. what should trump fear most

about april 15th? this trial date is set. what should he be worried about? >> yeah, he should be worried about me. he should be worried about the manhattan district attorney, the district of new york prosecutors. he should be worried about the documentary evidence. he should be worried about all of the witnesses that are going to be coming in to that trial, simply because, as others have also appropriately put it, this is a very simple case. this is a case aced upon documentary evidence and corroborating testimony. you know, these documents don't lie, and they paint a very specific picture -- one, which of course, does not bend to the benefit of donald trump. >> we are looking forward to watching you in three weeks and talking about it. again, we have a trial date now. i want to get into the heads of what the defense is here. the judge seemed a little skeptical of what they had to offer. what do you anticipate their actual defense may be at this

trial? >> so a few things. they are going to say that these payments, these hush money payments to stormy daniels, had nothing to do -- the purpose of them had nothing to do with campaign-finance violations or affecting the and milani and not finding out. but that's a hard defense to make, unless donald trump testifies. i don't know where the evidence from that would come from if not from donald trump himself. so i really think what you are going to see, as michael points out, as they are going to beat up on michael and do their best to really try and attack his credibility. but i will say that, you know, the manhattan d.a.s office would not have brought this case they didn't feel that not only did they have strong witness testimony, but that they felt that witness testimony was corroborated by documents. here you have copies of signed checks the donald trump is signing from the oval office. there are documents showing these payments, and there are clearly payments that the

witnesses, not just michael cohen, but various others, can't explain what the purpose was. just wanting to point out about the seriousness of this is that, you know, they told in michael cohen sentencing for the campaign-finance violations that these were so serious they threaten the fairness of elections and eroded our faith in the electoral process. so if the problem was serious for michael cohen, that it is certainly serious for donald trump. the person who directed michael cohen to commit the crime for donald trump's benefit. so there's a lot of talk about this not being serious and this being the least serious of the cases. i disagree. this is election interference, and i think we will see that in just a few weeks. >> a case of a two tier justice system. you been a lawyer and you been in the courtroom. he thought about all the things that are going to come at you. a judge overseeing the terms of your probation recently suggested that you committed perjury because you denied under oath that you committed tax evasion after you pled guilty to a back in 2018.

what are you going to say of trumps lawyers raise this at trial to attempt to discredit you? >> yeah. once again, it goes right back into the sum and substance of my testimony. i don't think the judge furman accurately described to my -- my attorney stated best when she said that she believed -- i'm going to now paraphrase, because she said it much more articulate than i'm going to. in fact, what he should have been looking at is not only the fact that the bureau of probation, the department of corrections, endorsed the termination of the supervisor release that he decided not to. but more importantly, that there was even more here. out of everybody at the new york attorney general case, he didn't find donald trump credible. he didn't find don junior, eric, yvonne kerr, alan weisel

berg, he didn't find any of them credible. but the one person that he did, and he went out of his way to say it -- michael cohen told the truth. that's page 43 out of the 92 page decision. i think furman missed the boat here by a mile. >> they will keep trying to discredit you. kristi greenberg, thank you so much. stay right where you are. we are going to be back in asked he seconds and i have more questions for you about the civil fraud case. we will be right back. back. provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients.

>> what was unquestionably a bizarre and rambling press conference today, donald trump made several new claims about his personal finance is. he said he could afford to post a reduced bond requirement of $175 million, claiming he will put it up very quickly. >> we will put up the cash bond very quickly, secured, whatever it is.

well, as i say, i have a lot of cash. >> while trump also said he didn't need financial help, he notably defended his right to do so. former trump lawyer michael cohen stuck with us, standing with me now. let's talk about what donald trump said today, that he will post his reduced amount of $175 million very quickly. can he do that? >> look, it is certainly a whole lot less than the 500 million that he was looking for that he could not get, that his son eric was crying on television that this is something that nobody has ever had to do before. they were obviously unable to do it. i think that he can raise the 175 million. the answer is, most probably. it is certainly, like i said, a lot less than the 500 million. there are things that he could

do. one of the things that i was saying earlier today is, i wish that tish james had reached out to me. i would show her exactly where the money is for the 500 million that she should have gone after a long time ago instead of giving him the opportunity of 30 days to raise this bond. >> well, she still -- there's a good offer. >> sure. well, she certainly could. i will say that, again, the 175 is a lot easier for him to raise in the 500. >> i was interested in what your thought was on what he said about taking foreign money. he said i think you would be allowed to, but i don't need to borrow money. what you make of that response? what does it mean to you? >> you know the donald trump is lying when his lips are moving. he's probably reaching out to foreign entities and foreign

individuals. he wants to just make sure that he is putting this out there in advance of him actually doing it, because that is what he intends to do. he doesn't say things just haphazardly. is always a reason behind his insanity. this is just another one of them. he couldn't get it domestically, and so he'd rather try to reach out to anyone that would give him the money. just as long as he didn't have to post his own money. that is just who he is. in my prediction, he will wait till the absolute last day, day 10, before he post whether it is cash, which it won't be, or a bond. and we will not know where that bond was secured from. i've also said this on a ton of shows already -- this is the part that we all, as americans, need to be extremely, extremely careful of. because if it is a foreign entity, imagine -- god forbid 1 million times that trump becomes president. that foreign entity will own

the president of the united dates of america. now, if he does get it domestically, could you imagine we also have a president who is significantly compromised for somebody who had done him the major favor of giving him -- whether it's 175 million, or $500 million. it places america's national security in a very precarious situation. >> let me ask you this, because i agree with you. this is a really important thing for people to understand. but you do know who he has close relationships with. would you think he is reaching out to? who should americans might be concerned he would be owing something to? >> are you talking about domestically? >> foreign. >> just take a look at the list. can we hit the domestic one first? take a look at the membership list over at mar-a-lago. we already saw that he showed top-secret documents to an

australian billionaire. there's plenty of billionaires and hang out with him over at mar-a-lago, and each and every one of them these donald trump as a fool, and that they think they can get something out of him. because most of these mega- billionaires actually did get stuff out of him while he was the president. as far as foreign -- look, he's talking about his love affair with kim jong-un, his great respect for vladimir putin, his great friendship with gigi ping. you have mohammed ben solomon, who for whatever the reason might be, gave over $2 billion to jared kushner, who has never been in the finance world before. i mean, there are plenty of really wealthy autocrats out there that would be more than happy to loan donald money, especially if they know they can own him if he becomes the president. >> michael cohen. thank you for always being direct and for hanging with me tonight to the first part of our show. we appreciate you joining us. former white house aide

cassidy hutchinson is here for her first live interview and month. she's been the subject of more right-wing attacks over the months, and she's ready to talk about it. we will be back after a quick break. break.

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>> it's been nearly two years since former white house trump aide cassidy hutchinson gave her testimony on january 6th. of all the things she said she

testified about, arguably the most jaw-dropping was aced lori she said she was told secondhand by a deputy chief of staff. about how then president trump was so irate and insistent go to the capital on january 6th that he longed for the steering wheel. for years, trump and his allies have tried to rewrite the history of january 6th. we see this every day. just in the past month, republicans have attacked hutchinson's credibility based on a new report that seeks to undermine the january 6th to mitty's findings. unnamed white house staffers who claim things like, they didn't hear about things in the crowd, and the trump didn't lunch for the steering wheel. and trump himself posted on his social media site, will she be prosecuted for what she did and said? but what they failed to mention was at the core of hutchinson's testimony that she wanted to go to the capital on january 6th, was corroborated and that republican report i just mentioned. in fact, it says that a white

house employee was told that trump was irate. and the driver was reviewed by the new york times, the agent said that while he did not see trump reach for the steering wheel, trump was insistent on going to the capital. it was clear he wanted to go to the capital. that's the point. joining me now is former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson. first of all, i want to say it's incredibly courageous that you speak out, and i appreciate you being here tonight. it's important for people to hear your voice. let me start with this. it's been a while since we sat down together. in that time, as i just mentioned, trump and a number of his allies have attacked you personally. trump posted, will she be prosecuted for what she did and said. what is your response to that? >> you know, jen, i have been part of the trump administration for several years, and i know when he starts to get nervous. i know that donald trump has to

be nervous if not extremely frightened right now. because what is happening is he is deploying his most loyal allies on capitol hill to try to discredit not only my testimony, but the entire january 6th investigation as a whole. the facts are out there. he doesn't want the facts out there because he doesn't want the american people to know what actually happened. he's hoping that is false narrative of what happened on january 6th is what the american people will believe heading up to the november election. it's really imperative that we keep speaking about the truth, because the facts are the fact, and donald trump has tried to smear those of his deceit and his lies. what i will say to that too, though, is when you mention the report, much of my testimony is corroborated, but there also is one key piece, and that's the fact that he knew there were weapons in the crowd. his secret service agents testified that that was why they were not coming through. that's a key piece of evidence for the american people to

know, and for the jury, hopefully, that would convene before the election. it also is reported that only one hour after he got back from this, he called kevin mccarthy and said it was anti-for attacking the capital. he also said that they were his people. all this being said, jen, donald trump lashes out when he feels threatened, and he is lashing out right now because he does not want the american people to know that he was responsible for the single most egregious attack on our democracy. >> there's no question -- i think it's interesting that you say he's threatened that feels right to me. he also, though -- there's a lot of people like yourself would been speaking out who might be witnesses here. you think he's trying to publicly pressure you? >> you know, it's hard to climb into this. it's not something i'd really love to do. i would anticipate it being a fairly dark lace to be.

but i will say to that, pushing aside my case, even though there are times when i do get really discouraged, and i want to be honest about that ellipse this it is difficult, especially when there are some of my former friends and colleagues who i know no better, and members of congress that i worked really closely with amplifying his lies. but i think when we look at the bigger picture, he is not just threatening this with me. he is threatening it with liz cheney, adam kessinger, the blue served on the january 6th committee. he's threatening other potential witnesses in other cases and federal indictments that have come down. potential jurors, judges -- there are a large swath of americans that may need security going into this next year because he has committed to unleashing political violence on these people. that is not what a leader does, and they are expecting them to be the republican nominee again. he's there to support the people of america, not to silence them. a leader empowers people, not

leaving through fear. >> sarah matthews, a friend of yours, has been on the show, and she said something that is released with me. i want to play that for you and talk to you a little bit about that, too. >> we look around and it's mainly the women, and especially young women were speaking out, so i would just encourage maybe the men who are twice my age withheld white higher positions of power than me who also know that donald trump is unfit to serve to speak up, and i know that we've got some time before election day, but i'm hoping that as we get closer and they see the threat the donald trump is and the very real chance that he could be president again, that they will come forward. >> i would so important to state here, both of you spoke out in your 20s. young women who believed and supported the republican party, leaves trump, spoke out because it wasn't right. there are a lot of people, including older men -- and she said it, but i'm going to repeat it ellipse this who did

not. you wish they would? >> of course i would. maybe not even until january 6, the people that know donald trump's character. when we evaluate the politicians we elected to office, policy is important. but especially in this period in american history, character takes precedent over policy positions. when we look at this election year, there have been more people who are spoken out. but what i take issue with is when they speak out once or twice and expect that to be enough. >> and they are quiet then. >> exactly. trump has an effective mechanism where they do hold a megaphone to the american people, or they use that megaphone to spread conspiracy theories and lies, and that's how they seduce people into believing what donald trump says. we need people who are on the inside to do the exact same thing, but speak truth to the power of the lies that donald trump has done, otherwise we might be tumbling towards a dictatorship. >> i have so much more i want

to ask you. i hope you can stick around for one more block. we will be right back with cassidy hutchinson. stay with us. us. what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and

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>> you don't think there were concerns that the 2020 election? >> most people don't question the result. that's all i'm saying. they don't question whether biden won or not. right? right? most people don't question the outcome. >> right. >> i mean, that was an awkward silence there. i sort of felt bad for him. i didn't really, what does that tell you about this position and commitment to denying the events of january 6th. what should they be doing by maybe holding more people accountable like that? >> i think that might be the first time i have seen jim jordan completely silent when confronted with the truth. which also goes to show how republicans are grasping at straws. they are doing everything they can to make sure that the truth isn't out there, but there's going to be a point, whether it's in this next election

cycle or the years to come, when the truth is going to catch up, and the truth always prevails. the truth is always going to look poorly upon these people that are spouted conspiracy theories and lies in the ways that jim jordan has, because it's not just jim jordan. the entire house republican conference right now is a disgrace not only to the republican party, but to americans. as important as it is to make sure that donald trump never gets near the oval office again, you also need to focus on congress to make sure that everybody in congress who has been an enabler of donald trump, people like jim jordan, people like nancy mace who have devoted their careers in this part of american history to becoming loyal foot soldiers of donald trump. they are lying to their constituents, so they do not deserve to serve on that body. >> we hear these people have this conversation in congress. they said quietly and won't say

it publicly. you are not afraid. or if you are afraid, you are speaking out. what you say to people that are fearful of their political future, of even retribution from trump about what this moment is about? >> for fear of the political future, i would say there may be some craven political ambition. you take an oath and swear that oath to take and defend the united states constitution. you don't swear to protect an individual who is more concerned about protecting themselves and keeping themselves out of jail as donald trump is. i do want to acknowledge that there are very real security threat. for me, that's enough of a reason to not use my voice for a platform that i very graciously have now to educate the american people on the dangers of donald trump. i believe that every single member of congress and every

single elected official in every single person in the media as a civic obligation to continue educating the american people so they understand that we are not catastrophize thing what a second trump term could look like. we aren't lying or over exaggerating his lack of character and how devoid he is of any emotion. we are telling the truth about all of this. and if we do not keep doing this for the next eight months, and if he happens to be elected again, the shame and the blame in ways falls on us, because we need to be doing everything that we can regardless of the outcome in order to secure the country for future generations, and also for a place on the world stage. >> i want to end with something more personal. you talked recently about your father's admiration of donald trump as emblematic of the way he, as you said, manipulates his orders. and you still consider yourself -- you have conservative values. you will receive and geeking out, but you may have alignment with the number of people who

aren't speaking out. what should we kind of understand about why these tactics are working with trump's base in terms of him convincing them he is a billionaire, he's a successful businessman, he's going to defend them. what are people who aren't his supporters not understanding about how that works? >> donald trump has built his entire career from his early days as a quote unquote businessman all the way through his term in office on a facade that he is strong, that he is powerful, that he is brilliant, and he has all this money because he's been able to accumulate it on his own. the anecdote ewers taking about, it's mentioned in the book and also in different public forms with my father. my father really looked toward donald trump as sort of the pinnacle of the american dream. he believed in donald trump, and he believed that he was the person that he could learn from to be a better businessman.

donald trump brought a whole new constituency of voters in 2016 that felt disenfranchised. he also inspired them. i voted for donald trump in 2016 because i also felt like i could believe in him. i felt like he was there to actually leave the country through a difficult period. and i felt that he was the person to do it. i look back now and i see how disingenuous he is. i see how he has manipulated and seduced people into believing his lies, and he has done that and what successfully. right now, we see his house of cards beginning to fall. he's avoided accountability for his entire life. there are multiple criminal cases across -- and the federal governments and in state governments. the outcomes aren't likely to rule in donald trump's favor. he doesn't want people to know who he actually is. that's the biggest threat to donald trump's ego. but that's also the way that we get out of this moment.

in order to get out, it is not just making sure that donald trump isn't re-elected. we have to make sure that we welcome people back, and we do that by having conversations where people feel that they are being listened to. we don't shame people out of their belief systems. and they really do believe in this man. and i feel for them. i feel that they have this false sense of hope in somebody who is taking their hard earned money, and they actually believe that here he is there to serve them, when in reality, donald trump is going to end up in prison. so we need to make sure that when the day comes when donald trump is no longer a political force, we work on having these productive conversations so we can come back stronger as a country. >> cassidy hutchinson, you defined punching back it bullies verbally and not letting anyone carry you. thank you for being on tonight, for speaking truth, and for being so candid about the

variances. sure it's been very difficult. very courageous of you to eke out. coming up, some thoughts from me on former rnc chair rhonda mcdaniel. rhonda mcdaniel.

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>> you may have seen some use over the last few days about the hiring of former rns the chair ronna mcdaniel as an nbc news contributor. some, mainly in the right-wing ecosystem, have made the comparison to others who came from government or politics into the media, including me. and that is a comparison i felt like i had to address. i got into public service for the same reason many people do -- to serve the american people. i worked at my first political campaign when i was just 24 years old. i was 28, i packed my bags and moved to chicago to work for brock obama. he wanted to make the world a better place, and i wanted to help him. i wanted to work on behalf of the american people to try to make their lives better. and a few years later, i would

do the same thing for president biden when i went to work with him in the white house. i was in the room for tough debates, for difficult decisions, for the messy and at times incredibly grueling process of government. and that experience is something that i am extremely proud to bring to this table and to this network. there are many others who have followed a similar path, so i have a great deal of back for them. but here's the thing -- that kind of experience only matters and only has value to viewers if it is paired with honesty and with good faith. those qualities are especially important right now at a time when our in the tuitions are under attack and when our democracy is in danger. in our democracy is in danger because of the lies that people like ronna mcdaniel have pushed on this country. to quote liz cheney, she facilitated trumps corrupt bay collector plot and his do not certify the legitimate election outcome. she spread his lies and call january 6th legitimate

political discourse. look, this is an about republicans versus democrats. this is an about red versus blue. this is about truth versus lies. service to the country versus service to one man committed to toppling our democratic system. that is the type of experience that ronna mcdaniel brings to the table, and that experience does not get us to a deeper understanding of anything in the public debate. be right back. back. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the

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>> every once in a while, we have to take a step back and acknowledge just how absurd the state of our politics is. last night, the eve of an appearance in criminal court, donald trump was celebrating, quote, it is my great honor to be at trump international golf club in west palm beach tonight. awards night to receive the club championship trophy and the senior club championship trophy. i won both. president biden's response, congratulations, donald. by the accomplishment. joining me now is al franken. senator, it's great to see you. you so much for taking the time to join me tonight. it seems silly, but it does

reveal something about donald trump, and he feels the need to brag about golf tournaments at courses he owns. but increasingly, it also seems like president biden is kinda willing to troll him and poke fun of him. what do you think about that approach? >> well, i think it was just a sincere congratulations on winning the tournament, and the senior tournament. it's -- why would anyone write that, other than donald trump? you don't believe him, first of all. and -- yeah. >> good question. he might be a little bit of a golf cheater, i hear. so none of that is a surprise. in all seriousness, a part of trump -- even though that's absurd. he's bragging about these golf tournaments. but a part of him thinks his strategy is winning, and some of that might be after his hearing in manhattan today.

he was asked if his conviction would cause them to lose the election, and the answer was that it could actually make it more popular. that sounds absurd. it's depressing to even entertain that, and you're on the outside now, but you have been in the center. are you worried that some part of that may be right? >> with him, you never know. his people have stuck with him through thick and then, and i actually think i've heard a certain percentage of trump supporters say that if he is a convicted felon, they will abandon him. so i don't think it's true, but this -- you know, this is the weirdest guy, and his followers follow him in the weirdest places. >> that is very true. as you are watching this and you see all the different messages the democratic party is going on him, right, there's a lot of material there. there's the legal cases, there's obviously a strike to abortion rights, there's his threat to the affordable care act. is what he would do to working

men and women. what should people be doing? there's almost too many to pick from. what is the right approach in your view? >> well, the right approach is to go door to door and knock on doors especially in blue areas and get out the vote. that is the right thing for people watching today, who watch msnbc and care about the selection is to get involved and do that. that's the right -- that's what the right argument is. i think that as these cases unfold, and thank god we actually have one coming up to trial. i think it will be very clear -- you started your show talking to michael:. and i think it is pretty clear that this hush money case was exactly that -- a hush money case. and i, you know, i am looking forward to -- i don't know whether he will testify. i know his lawyers know that he

lies a lot. but i hope that he testified, because when he puts that hand on the bible, i want to see it burst into flames. >> it might. i think we would all be interested in seeing him testify. let me ask you about what's going on on the republican side of the aisle in congress. you know well better than most people that they have all sorts of conversations around the behind the scene. lisa murkowski said yesterday that she's open to leaving the party, open to becoming an independent. she said, quote, i just regret that our party is seemingly becoming a party of donald trump. have a republican senators using share that view but just don't say that publicly? is there a buzz about that and they just won't say that out loud? >> oh, yeah. i dig it depends what state you come from. some in very solidly red states will share with me that they do not like donald trump. but they have no choice.

now, lisa in alaska, she won a three-way race i think two races ago, and she has won as an independent, and -- i can see her abandoning the republican party, because she can do it. in that state. >> let me ask you before i let you go and we turn it over to rachel maddow, of course, about the democratic side. because you now have the perspective on what everybody is working on. what should their focus be? i know you said doorknocking is an important thing. what are you worried about most and what should your focus be going into november? >> well, i think it's a very -- it's going to be a tough year. it's what a be a very close election. i won my first race by 312 votes, and we saw 11,779 in georgia. so it's going to be these battleground states.

and those are the states that we have to focus on, and we have to give money in those states and get out the vote, and do ground game, or work those states. so that's wisconsin, it's michigan, it's pennsylvania. we know what it is. >> we do, certainly. you are a testament to every vote counting. you for joining me. the rachel maddow short show starts right now. >> thank you very much, my friend. >> and thanks for jordan home for joining us. today at the start of the day, the republican party's presumptive nominee was facing a deadline to put up a $460 million bond. million bond. york would start seizing his bank accounts and his properties pursuant to a huge fraud judgment that has been levied against him by the courts. he then got a surprise reprieve of that deadline this morningch the new york