that evening and welcome to a special hour devoted to the trump indictments. we are both nyu law professors,

msnbc legal analyst's, and co- authors of the new york times best-selling book, "the trump indictments, the historic charging documents of commentary." trump is charged 88 felony counts in four different jurisdictions. we are going to cover the latest developments in donald trump's criminal cases starting with fulton county, georgia. >> we will also zoom out and reflect on whether the american justice system has so far proven whether it can meet the challenges of, as we write in our book, a former president's attempts to politicize, corrupt, not only our elections but american governance and the rule of law. jamie raskin will join us. >> later in the hour, we flip the script and ask a msnbc anchor the important questions. chris hayes will join us to weigh in on the media's role in the event that voters ultimately get to render a verdict on donald trump before a jury does.

our breaking news tonight comes out of fulton county, georgia, or district attorney, fani willis, has learned she will not be disqualified from her election interference prosecution against donald trump. the case was imperiled after one of donald trump's co- defendants alleged an improper romantic relationship between willis and nathan wade, who willis hired as a special prosecutor. after a multi-day hearing last month that saw willis and wade take the stand to defend themselves, the fulton county judge issued his decision today in a 23 page order. the judge had harsh words for willis and wade, writing that the prosecution is now " encumbered by an appearance of impropriety. this appearance is not created by mere status alone, but comes because of specific conduct and impacts more than a mere nebulous public interest because it concerns a public prosecutor."

they also say "even if the romantic relationship began after wade's initial contract, the district attorney chose to continue supervising and paying wade or maintaining such a relationship did she further allowed the regular and this exchange of money between them without any exact or verifiable measure of reconciliation." despite this assessment, they ultimately concluded "the defendants failed to meet their burden of proving that the district attorney acquired an actual conflict of interest in this case through her personal relationship and recurring travels with her lead prosecutor. the other alleged grounds for disqualification, including forensic misconduct, are also denied. however, the established record now highlights a significant appearance of an propriety that infects the current structure of the prosecution team, and appearance that must be removed from the states selection of one of two options." nathan wade exercised one of those options when he tendered his resignation. >> now, we have melissa redman,

the former fulton county district deputy attorney and a professor at the university of georgia school of law. we also had a millie copeland, a criminal defense attorney and a former federal prosecutor. welcome. >> good evening. >> amy, let's start with, what should we expect next? i was reading the decision and i was left trying to understand, is one side or the other going to appeal? the judge seemed to invite ethics inquiries with a litany of various places people could go to complain about what they could not allege happened and then there's the issue of, is fani willis will stay -- will tran 16 stay as main supervisor of this case or could she give it to a deputy? what do you think is going to happen next? is the last we hear of this or is this the beginning of the saga? >> i think it's both. to appeal a decision like this in georgia requires a number of

hoops. the judge would have to issue a significant and immediate review and the court of appeals would have to agree to take the case. in wednesday's owner, -- order, they offered a significant review on that particular question. they did make the offer but i think it's unlikely he will issue the certificate as i think it's unlikely there will be an appeal and the trump team will try. it would delay the case significantly. i think the d.a. is going to roll up her sleeves and continue onwards. 10, 11 people sign off on pleadings and it's a large office, i think close to 200 district attorneys and she has people she can look to pit whether she remains the public face of the prosecution is up to her but i expect she will. i think that this is her special thing, she's prosecuted these cases, she's done it successfully, and i think she

will go forward. i understand that those were harsh words but i am sure that she will need them and keep moving forward. >> these were really stinging words from the judge, a true public scolding, if you will. did the judge go beyond in calling out the prosecutors for their relationship given that he ultimately found no actual conflict of interest? >> i do believe he went a bit far and i think that because in his ruling, the first thing he says is that it was evident that this did nothing to warrant a belief that she is pursuing this case for any reason other than what her fiduciary duty requires her to do, that she has no personal interest in the litigation of this case so moving on with the appearance of impropriety, he finds that

whatever appearance there may have been they could not conclusively approve this would not warrant disqualification, a mythical reasonable person could believe that if he stays on the case then perhaps the relationship could resume, they could continue to have a belief a financial interest that he found did not exist to warrant requiring removal from the case. i think he's playing both sides and i think a lot of the language was unnecessary but ultimately as harsh as the words he used to describe the unprofessional conduct he described in the testimony, the thing that was key to me is that the defendants alleged that she had a personal interest in the case and produce absolutely no evidence that that impacted the case so i think that's what we should focus on. >> so it's true, it seems like it was a gratuitous scolding.

does that prime a jury pool to essentially disregard or discredit the things that fani willis puts before them as she goes forward? has he primed the jury pool to be incredulous of this d.a. going forward? >> i think there are two things that i wonder what impact that, one is how far we are from jury selection and how many things play out before we get there. there are many more motions to be heard and more hearings that take place, and then, how much of this will the judge allow to be presented? having found that the defendants have not been prejudiced by these allegations, that there has been no personal interest in the litigation, i don't see how it's relevant for questions to be posed to the jury about what they believe the nature of this

relationship was, when it started, all of those things that are in dispute in the appearance of impropriety section. i don't see how that's relevant and again, we are far from jury selection so we will see what changes. >> amy, do you agree and also, this issue is that, we are far from jury selection. what do you think? when could a trial happen? i hate to put you on the spot to predict but that's what everyone is wondering. >> sure, to answer the first question, we are going to get a pretty good idea of what the fulton county jury pool thinks about the d.a. in may. she is up for re-election, the order came out after qualification., and we will see if she gets elected. i think she will. she is popular support in the county. how far out are we? george's conflict roles look to

what other cases have said and this d.a. has said she needs a 30 day runway and that's it. the new york case looks like it is set to go, and the former president in the classified documents case affirmatively asked for a trial setting in august and september after insisting it could not be tried until after the election. there's a shot. if she can jump in sometime this summer, in august, if she can get the trial date set, she can go for it. it remains to be seen. we are still seven months away from the election and that will be here before we know it, unfortunately. >> thank you for joining us. coming up, a former trump aid could be headed to prison next week. contrary to what donald trump says, prosecuting, convicting, and imprisoning former leaders accused of serious crimes is,

wait for it, totally normal and just, at least in other different -- advanced democracies. is america just bad at this? we will discuss that with cordesman jamie raskin next, when "the trump indictments" returns. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. ♪ i wanna hold you forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪

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a former trump white house adviser is now heading to prison. donald trump, so far, has successfully delayed his own

day of reckoning. the court of appeals ruled that a trump trade adviser must report to prison tuesday after being convicted of contempt of congress for defying a subpoena for the january 6th committee. that decision was appealed today to the supreme court and the justices include clarence thomas, whose wife was, wait for it, at donald trump's rally to overturn the election on january 6. >> trump repeatedly says it's unprecedented to indict a former president and he's right, it is, but it's also an president -- unprecedented with his conduct, at least in the united states. as we point out in our book, recent history provides several examples of other advanced democracies that have criminally prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned its former leaders. france prosecuted two former presidents and one prime

minister for corruption. last month it appeals court upheld the guilty verdict for the former french president for illegally financing his 2012 presidential campaign. he was sentenced to six months in prison but remains free on appeal. the italian prime minister was also convicted in 2012 of tax fraud, false accounting, development, and sentence to a ban on holding elective office and received prison time but because of his age, was exempted from actually being imprisoned. the former israeli prime minister served 16 months of a 27 month prison sentence after being convicted of fraud, corruption, and obstruction of justice and in argentina, cristina fernandez kirchner was, as we discussed, convicted in december of 2022 of corruption for awarding public contracts in your presidency and sentenced to six years in

jail and disqualified from holding further public office. in brazil, trump's buddy has been barred from running for future office for eight years after he refused to concede his lost election and his supporters attacked brazils congress. sounds familiar. mike pence, who defied donald trump january 6th after refusing to concede, said today he will not endorse trump in 2024. that's the first question we had for jamie raskin when we spoke to him earlier today. >> it should come as no surprise that i will not be endorsing donald trump this year. i made it clear there were profound differences between may and president trump on a range of issues and not just my constitutional duties, with

ides of the conservative agenda , i cannot, in good conscious, endorsed donald trump. is my joining us now is jamie raskin, a member of the january 6 select committee. welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> we have breaking news, because the vice president announced he would not be endorsing donald trump which is kind of amazing and maybe not surprising given what cassidy hutchinson wrote about in her book enough which is they are calling for the president to be hanged, the president is okay with it. he doesn't want to do anything, he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong, he says that

they need to be doing something more. so, congressman, as a lawyer and someone's in american legal systems and how we are doing, how do you think we are doing compared to other countries that have managed to hold political leaders to account, french, argentina, italy. we don't seem to do that and we have his own vice president saying he's not endorsing him. >> we are still in the middle of the fight, and i hope that we will be able to look back on it and acknowledge our institutions were resigned enough to repel the fascist menace within, but it does feel

strange that donald trump is still a candidate when his own vice president refuses to endorse him simply because donald trump sent a violent insurrectionist mob at mike pence when we were trying to accomplish the peaceful transfer of power. so, i imagine it feels very tough and difficult when you are in the middle of one of the struggles anywhere, but yeah. it is certainly disturbing that things are as close as they are, but remember, joe biden beat donald trump i more than 7 million votes, in the electoral college and commanding majorities of americans reject what trump and his followers have to sell, like an anti- choice, anti-environment,

antiunion program. the problem is that they've got antidemocratic devices that they are able to use to keep themselves in the running like voter suppression tactics, gerrymandering, of state and federal districts, corporate dark money, the filibuster, and so on. it's a race between the will of the majority, which is clearly on the side of democracy and freedom in almost every case, versus their ability to manipulate with the bag of tricks they've got. >> you mentioned a number of antidemocratic devices being used right now, some argue that the supreme court itself is being used in a way that's antidemocratic. i wanted to ask about trump versus anderson, the case where the supreme court invalidated the colorado disqualification of donald trump. as a member of the january 6th committee you referred to charges to congress

or from congress to the doj. the special counsel did not actually charge insurrection. do you think that was a mistake given that if insurrection had been charged that would have been a federal charge based on a congressional statute to implement the guarantees of the 14th amendment and perhaps the supreme court would have found some room going forward to allow congress to have spoken on the question of whether donald trump should be disqualified? >> well, congress did speak. we voted in congress to impeach donald trump for inciting an insurrection against the constitution and we took it to the senate and the senate voted 57 to 43 in the most sweeping bipartisan vote in a presidential impeachment trial in senate and u.s. history to convict though trump beat the constitutional spread by 10 votes because he got a convict by two thirds. in any event, you have commanding bipartisan majorities establishing as a

legislative fact that donald trump participated in insurrection. i do not think there are any magic words that could have been used by congress or, that could have taken place to convince this court. they clearly wanted to punt on section 3 and went all the way to congress, saying it's up to congress to decide, although every other part of the 14th amendment is self executed. if the government violates these rights, you can go to court and sue, you don't need to sue under a statute that's been passed by congress under section 5. it's the same thing ray. it's a clear, constitutional directive that if you violated your oath of office by engaging

in insurrection or rebellion, you can never hold office again and yet, this court was staring right at that text, understood the meaning and purposes of section 3 and simply said, there's nothing they can do, nothing the states can do, congress has to act knowing republicans retain this majority. still, we have to legislate so we can deal with officeholders to become insurrectionist and try to overthrow the government. >> speaking of enablers, you mentioned there were a lot of people who joined you in finding insurrection.

what was it like to serve with people not in that camp who are supporting and enabling not counting votes? how does it feel and what can be done in either parts of congress to deal with that problem? >> it's like we have been watching our gop colleagues sleepwalking into fascism. it step-by-step, they accepted unacceptable and intolerable things beginning with things like, you can grab women by their private parts or calling third world countries, blank whole countries, or the muslim man. in each step, this agholor with this, i go along with that

and then one day, they are just like people waking up on the basement floor of a religious cult asking how they got there. so, it's depressing. i have a lot more republican friends before, a lot of the ones who did not want to go along with the authoritarianism and putin worship and being in league with autocrats got out and left so it's really just a handful left who i feel i can engage with in common political enterprise because a lot of them are willing to go with donald trump and try to attack the constitutional order from the outside, so that's why i feel like liz cheney and mitt romney, the ones willing to stand up for the constitution, we have to hold close to those people because when you look at the history of fascism, it's very hard a fascist or

authoritarian movement with one political party. you need to unite across the political spectrum so we have to be at ding with the lincoln project and the moderate republicans, the independents who had enough, and every day i hear from people who say, we have to keep building our ranks and not being sectarian and how we approach this. >> thank you. >> appreciate it, great being with you. coming up, news today regarding donald trump's trial date for his first criminal trial in manhattan, next when "the trump indictments" continues. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? no. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game!

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welcome back to our special our on "the trump indictments". monday, march 25th was supposed to be the first day of jury selection in donald trump's criminal trial for fraud related to his efforts to pay off adult film star, stormy daniels, during the 2016 presidential election. >> today, judge merchan has delayed the trial for 30 days . after it was revealed the southern district of new york failed to produce tens of thousands of pages of documents to the defense. all of those documents have now been turned over.

the judge has set a hearing on the discovery issues for march 25th and in doing so said "the court will set the new trial date if necessary when it rules on the defendants motion following the hearing. of course, the delay of the trial they said "should not obscure the need to dismiss the indictment as a whole." prosecutors asked judge merchan to deny the motion to delay the trial until after the supreme court rules on immunity. they say "defendants immunity argument is untimely and can be projected at this stage on that basis alone. defendant has provided no valid reason for waiting before trial to raise this immunity argument when he has long been aware of the defense." andrew, i have many questions. what on earth is going on in the southern district of new york? how long does it take to produce documents in an actual criminal trial? >> what's going on is the polite

version -- >> you know what i'm thinking. >> i do. and i am sure it's a common conversation. let me describe the legal issue that is before the judge, why he will have a hearing on the 25th, the day we were going to have a trial. there is a relatively new law in new york state that requires the prosecutors to turn over all of these defense documents in a timely way. it's pro- defense but in a good way, and there is a sanction if the d.a. does not do that and that can include dismissing the case. >> so, this is going to be about whether or not that happened and whether this case should be dismissed and likely will be if it's determined it's often bragg's fault? >> i wouldn't say it's likely, but step one is is there anything that is his fault? that's where there is a

discussion of like, these documents and it will be warfare , okay, stop did what's going to happen is the d.a., as he has written, is saying he asked for documents from the southern district of new york, over a year ago. the thing i can't answer is what on god's green earth is happening? that's the issue, whose fault is it and is there a legal issue? i doubt that's the case but the southern district of new york may look bad at the end of this. so i have a question for you. >> do you? >> i do. it had to do with the immunity question. >> also a delay. >> it also involves me saying, on -- what on god's green earth is happening? i can understand the delay in

the supreme court. you have the government saying i want this decided quickly, i want to get to trial, one way or another, there is a decision. you'd think that if donald trump is saying i'm immune, i shouldn't suffer the criminal case, i don't want a gag order, that he would want this decided on that issue, not the trial date but immunity, quickly, but that's not happening, so what's going on? >> the question is, why is the supreme court moving at a glacial pace? i brought in some reserves. joining me now are my extraordinary cohost on my podcast, welcome. leah, what on earth is going on with your boys at one first street? >> i think they are the best cocounsel donald trump's lawyers have had because they've given him what he wants most which is to delay the

trial. they sat on his petition and application to stay the circuit decision that denied him immunity for two weeks before deciding they were going to take up the case and scheduled the case for two months after that, but not until the end of the term and the end of april. that has added on a ton of time to the delay and they are again giving him what he wants which is risking no trial before election. >> so, were you surprised that there wasn't some sort of dissent or concurrence or note or some signal from any justices who may have been less sympathetic to that stance or do you think they bartered for the schedule we currently have? >> i do think the april 25th hearing date is probably the result of compromise and negotiation. i'm sure that some

of the justices were appalled at the date, end of april, two months after the decision to act on this application and getting up against impossibility when it comes to pretrial proceedings an actual trial. the justices are aware of what it takes to get a case to trial when the case is been on hold since november but i'm sure there was unhappiness but i imagine some justices wanted to delay further, into the next term which trump is asking for, so this felt like a compromise and could still be if the justices ruled quickly after april 25th and if they do we could be on track, but that's the question and we will not know until we hear that argument. >> is another case being argued the same week as the immunity question and it will be argued monday, fisher versus united states. it's a case brought by a rank- and-file defendant who argues

this statute was not intended to be used in a situation like january 6th and this is the same statute jack smith charged trump under in the election interference case. is part of the explanation for the delay the fact that they want to hear arguments on the fisher case first? >> potentially. it's the same statute in a couple of the charges that were brought against trump. so, they are not unrelated and in theory if the court finds there's a fatal flaw in the way the charges were brought, then those charges follow way but it does not completely eliminate the case against donald trump. either way, now having taken it up, they have to answer the immunity question and to my mind, it's not hard. the argument is baseless and has no support and i expect they will reject it but time is

everything and if they reject it , i'm not sure we can get to a trial date. >> do you think it's possible that instead of an up or down decision that they might do what they did in a related case in the d.c. circuit which is send it back for fact-finding about an official act and what's not which would make it absolutely clear that this is never going to trial? >> that's a very real possibility. when the issue their decision they basically assumed, even assuming that this falls under the definition of official act, immunity would not cover this but it's possible the supreme court with a no, that's wrong, there is a definition of official immunity but in order to figure out whether the indictments cover that, you need to make additional findings to determine whether trump's conduct falls in that definition in which case that i an additional layer of briefing to the pretrial motions that

were already contemplated to take 80 days and that makes a trial before election impossible. >> really grim, the best in the business, my podcast cohosts, thank you for joining us. coming up, it's possible there can voters might render a judgment on donald trump's criminal charges before a jury has the chance to. that's next on "the trump indictments" . spraying flonase daily gives you long lasting non-drowsy relief. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills.

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the data united supreme court agreed to hear arguments on donald trump's claim of presidential immunity, delaying the start of trump's criminal trial for his alleged crimes, former attorney general calder posted that there is no cavalry coming, no miracle, no saviors. in the end, we, the american people, not any of our institutions, have to save our democracy by voting in defense of that democracy this fall. we are the cavalry. the responsibility is ours. >> general holder says all the charges are likely to be resolved -- unlikely to be resolved in a court of law and unlikely to go to trial and it will ultimately be left to the individual voter to make a decision about these facts when they go to the booth to cast

their ballots. we are lawyers, so we are often focused on what happens in the courtroom but often judges and lawyers go to great lengths to keep what's going on in public from in fact thing the courtroom. here, it may be the case that what might have happened in a courtroom will shape how the public views these allegations, the defendant, and his candidacy, which means the media will play a huge role in how the public receive the information contained in these indictments and process is it's in the lead up to the election. how should the media approach the task? tonight, we thought we would flip the script. usually we are in the guest chair, fielding legal questions from msnbc anchors but tonight, the tables are turned. >> thank god. >> we are talking to an anger about how they plan to approach the issues. >> joining us now is chris hayes . >> fund to be here.

>> as melissa said, when i was thinking about my prior life as a trial lawyer, i was on high- profile matters where what we were focused on is how to deal with what was going on outside the courtroom and not letting that affect inside the courtroom and that is what judges do when they try to figure out screening jurors who can't be fair. we are in the reverse situation and one question we have is, are we focused too much on trials and what's happening in the courtroom and should we, is that myopic taxi >> i don't think so. i'd like to give you a more pollyanna view of this but i think there's no more place for a trial so i don't, the trial as a matter of finding of fact, has judged under the constitutional due process projections is really important

in the category that cannot be replicated or substituted by the press. i honestly think that in some ways, there is an amount of information the price can provide that only a child can and i mean this in both directions, i truly mean it, which is, if a jury were to acquit donald trump of these crimes, which ever they are, that's significant information for the voting public paid the same goes for conviction but in both cases, that information can't be replicated. >> i agree that a jury trial is probably the best mechanism we have for resolving disputed questions of fact but i think it's unlikely we are going to get to a jury trial. for sure. given the kind of misinformation and disinformation with which our current political value is

played -- plates, how are we going to mediate for levels of facts so that when the voter does go to the voting booth, they are able to make an informed decision. how will the media approach that and sift through disinformation? >> i don't know. the media is hard to talk about because it's as fractured as i think i have experienced in my adult life. i think the information environment is almost as opaque as it's ever been partly because of how many people are getting their news from algorithms that aren't transparent. like rush limbaugh. anyone can figure out what was -- rush limbaugh was saying and no one knows how many people are watching a given video on tiktok . here's the most important thing for me and the problem. the source of the word "news" is new and old things fade and

memory and without the focusing event of a trial, the things he did are old and yet, with the evidence shows in public opinion is that people's memory is fading and it's important to remind people of the covid response, january 6th, everything in that tumultuous year of 2020 and i worry that the news will be chasing new things as opposed to doing, i think, it's civic duty to remind people. >> it seems odd that the mechanism we have, we are hoping will break through and get people to think and focus is a criminal trial because what i used to do, it's beyond reasonable doubt whether someone could be locked up and this is a different issue about, how do you get facts in a debate about facts and what somebody did and what really

happened or whether someone should have the privilege of running for office? >> you are saying it should be a different standard? like should you be locked up and should he be president should not be the same standard , right? >> that is where i am going. >> someone should be able to say i'm not going to vote for you but i'm not sure if i can convict you in a court of law but i suspect you've done enough -- >> it can be a preponderance of evidence. >> the voters can make up their minds however they want yes, it is strange that that's the situation, particularly when you look at the january 6th committee report where a lot of this really was a quite detailed process brought forth to the public in a way that was not just news reports and not a full trial but it was an official proceeding with sworn testimony and discovery that said look, this is the story. >> so there are two different

questions, should donald trump loses liberty or lose an election. is it really the job of the public to sift through the first question and should we instead have allowed the public to focus on the second i maybe having an actual impeachment trial that made sense and was a real proceeding where we didn't have this partisan faction but we actually got to the meat of an impeachment trial and made a decision about whether or not this person should serve an office? >> as fast as it was i think it prevents a good case for the fact that he incited insurrection against the u.s. i got more impeachment votes than any trial in history, but i think that should he be locked up or defied his liberty is fairly important signaling in a political question. i do think that there is, you've seen this with others, where people can be indicted

and still serve in office and do a lot of things. a conviction means something different to the public, it just does and i don't think it's crazy that that would be the case. >> that's a lot to think about a lot for the media to do going forward. thank you, for joining us tonight. next, we have something to say about donald trump and defendant's rights. yes, you read that correctly. we will make the case that defendant trump, next. so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle!

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>> a final thought. donald trump is charged with historic crimes and he's allowed to defend himself with competent counsel and all the tools that are afforded to him. those are the rights our constitution gives him and all of us. the truck defense, the strategy to delay, to seek a stay, to appeal, that is something he is entitled to try to do that is a right that he has. these are charges he can make in court and that has a process that our system affords him and all of us. >> nevertheless, the fact of these incessant delays suggest the defendant who may be is it

actually that interested in having his day in court. the question of immunity is instructive on this. the united states supreme court has slated oral arguments on the immunity question for the end of april and as has been discussed, we don't know when they will render a decision. that should be a concern for all of us. most importantly, it should be a concern for defendant trunk. any defendant who has raised the defense of immunity should want to know if he will prevail on that defense, if he is actually immunized from criminal liability evening questions like this one for the questions are unprecedented. the fact that the supreme court and donald trump see no problem with this significant delay, that is the real question but please, don't take our word for it. >> it is actually imperative, i think, that the public read the indictments for themselves, that donald trump seems in no hurry to respond to, and we hope that you will take the time to consider the charges against donald trump and make

up your own mind. what we try to do in the book, in our commentary, insider tips and cast of characters is make this is easily digestible and understandable as possible for lawyers and nonlawyers alike. we understand that there are various rationales for the e decisions that were made by prosecutors and we try to reveal those in this book. >> and again, as part of that educative mission, we tried in this hour to explain some of the choices and the implications for all of these delays and we are so grateful to all of you for joining us for this hour-long special. we really appreciate it. i am melissa murray. >> i am andrew weissmann. good night. at a rally yesterday, donald trump predicted a bloodbath if he