court. the question of immunity is instructive on this. the united states supreme court has slated oral arguments on the immunity question for the end of april. as we have discussed, we don't actually know when they will render a decision. that should be a concern for all of us. any defendant who has raised a case of immunity will want to know if he will prevail. if he is immunized from criminal liability. even in circumstances like this one where the questions are unprecedented and questions are first impression. the fact that the supreme court and donald trump see no problem with the significant delay, that is the real question. but please. don't take our word for it. >> it is imperative if the public read the indictments for themselves. that donald trump seems in no hurry. and we hope that you will take the time to consider the charges against donald trump

and make up your own mind. what we try to do in the book, in our commentary and insider tips and a cast of characters is make this as easily digestible and understandable as possible. for lawyers, and nonlawyers alike. we understand there are various rationales for the decisions made. >> as part of that mission we tried in this hour to explain some of the choices. and the implications for all of these delies. and we are so grateful to all of you for joining us for this hour long special. we really appreciate it. i'm melissa marie. >> i'm andrew weissnan. goodnight.

good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. we are 235 days away from the election. we have a very special night cap we will get to in a moment featuring an amazing lineup of student journalists. we start with the news of the day. fulton coupty da fani willis will remain on the trump case. the judge ruled she could stay if nathan wade, the prosecutor, stepped down. wade in fact did just that. here is my colleague blayne alexander with more. >> reporter: he was front and center when fani willis announced her criminal indictment of donald trump. but tonight, nathan wade, the man leading the prosecution against the former president for allegedly trying to overturn georgia's 2020 election results, has resigned. the culmination of a month's long spectacle after one of trump's codefendants michael roman exposed a romantic

relationship between wade and fulton county da fani willis who hired him. she was accused of financially benefiting from her relationship with wade. in a ruling, judge scott mcafee said while he did not find an actual conflict of interest in the case, he found a significant appearance of impropriety that affects the current structure of the prosecution team. and gave willis an ultimatum. either she and her office leave the case or wade. in a letter, wade writes today, he is resigning to move this case forward as quickly as possible. for willis, today's ruling is a legal victory, but a professional following this stunning two-hour testimony. judge scott mcafee scolding what he called her unprofessional manner on the stand. and while not dismissing the case outright as the defense had asked, mcafee takes willis

to task over this tremendous lapse in judgment. tonight, trump's attorney says he will use all legal options available as we continue to fight to end this case. all right, let's get to this. harry, let's start with you, fani willis stays on the case, what's your big take away? >> that is the number one take away, but the number two take away, she really absorbs some real hay makers and that is not going to go away. she has, mcafee and she together have given trump and company scott, georgia republicans in general, it is a real mixed brew of politics down there.

a club to beat her with and they will continue to do so. so you may have the feel for the opinion that it kind of puts this to rest. i don't think that it does. and i think we will continue to hear trump and others shouting from the rooftops about the sound bytes that mcafee has supplied. man, not something you want to rared about yourself. >> do you agree that she should recuse herself to get all the noise out of the case? >> did he say that? he is one smart guy and the truth is, you know, i do. if you think about it from the vantage point of the case, no, i'm not faulting her professionally. she has done an excellent job with the case. and, a lot of this is unfair and overplaid from what she has done.

if you want to see what is best for the case now, removing herself from it would be best for the case now. a lot of people will think that is unfair. but if the focus is on moving the case forward, yeah, it would be better off. she could stay in the chair, but turning it over to her staff to handle and staying up outside of it would be the smartest move. >> what are you hearing out of trump world? trump's lawyer said he will be staying all over this. >> this is a split decision. you have the vision of impropriety. when it comes to the politics, it is really what does this look bad. the trump campaign is saying look, this is a win for us. it looks as though fani willis

has done something that is not smart. so in trump world, this looks like something to say we can rally people around this. we can say this is part of a big witch hunt. we can say this is a woman who was not, who was unprofessional at best. they will continue to call her unethical. when you look at the ruling. for her to have nathan wade on this case, it plays to the idea she is not the best person for the case. she can stay on the case. and trump will say she should not be leading the case. but i think in some ways the politics here almost outweigh the legal findings here. if you are thinking about this from the lens of that, this

doesn't look good. >> all right harry. new topic. the judge in the hush money trial here in new york delayed the case by a month. what do you make of this situation? it seems like almost everybody associated with it is frustrated. >> yeah. and starting with the judge. look, the number one issue, steph, is how much time does trump need to process these new papers? that is a straightforward question that doesn't have anything to do with how this happened and really it seems to me there is a little there but not a lot. obviously the judge is hot and bothered about this. thinks maybe the u.s. attorney's office. maybe the da wasn't totally above board. i don't know. there are good reasons that they could have withheld the request which is what they first got from the da's office before responding to the subpoena from trump. but he wants to get to the bottom of it and he is obviously peeved. i think, though, that really should give way.

the question before him should be what does trump now need for due process to process the new stuff? a month ought to do it. >> today sounds like annoyed judges friday. the campaign is fully underway and all four of trump's criminal cases are delayed for a variety of reasons. what does it all mean for november? >> right, my view is if some of these cases are not resolved, looks like some of them may not be. but that is really a loss for the voters. because you know, the voters do not have the ability to analyze all the evidence in all the cases. there is too much information. so they do need the juries and judges to do that for them. and so, we will go in an election where we don't know whether potential new president will be guilty or innocent of the crimes that he is alleged

to have committed. now that's the situation donald trump wants. he wants to delay. he want to be elected president again. he can move to get rid of the federal cases. that is in his interest. the voters will be going in sort of blind as to whether or not donald trump is in fact guilty of these crimes and will have to make a decision with limited information. >> but luke, are they blind? do you see a voting block out there thinking well i think he is guilty. i think he is corrupt. but i'm not quite sure and i need a court decision to really help me decide one way or another. do you really think there are voters out there in that camp? >> there are some limited polling that shows a conviction would move a small amount of electorate. i agree that most people are

locked in on donald trump. he is a really bad guy or some sort of hero. but, there is some small portion of moderate and swing voters who through a conviction could affect their votes. or an acquittal. it is to everyone's advantage to have the facts looked at and embedded by judges and juries. and really hear. were these charges legitimate? is he guilty in georgia? federal court? or where these bogus charges? one thing i have learned from covering courts over the years is there is nothing like a good vetting of the evidence in the trial to get to the bottom of the truth. >> for sure. here is different news. today mike pence. trump's former vp said he would not support his former boss.

let's take a look. >> it should come as no surprise i will not be endorsing donald trump this year. donald trump is pursuing and articulating an ayen da fani that is at odds with the conservative agenda we governed on. that is why i cannot in good conscience endorse donald trump in this campaign. >> yeah. logically, it is not a surprise. but when you think about the fact that tim scott, ted cruz, mitch mcconnell have all lined up for trump. and mike pence, he was his former vp. that's pretty big. don't you think? >> it would be big if this was a conventional sort of political situation. but mike pence was running for his life in the capital with a crowd of people who were shouting hang mike pence because it is pretty clear, former president trump had really turned their attention and their anger toward him because he would not steal the 2020 election on behalf of trump.

it is not surprising when you think of the facts that mike fence is having to deal with. apart from the policy decisions and differences they may have. you have mike pence who is personally still dealing with the after effects of donald trump turning on him. mike pence was a very loyal vice president. there was no daylight between him and donald trump publicly for years even though trump did all sorts of thing that's were scandals and things mike pence would disagree with. but when it came to stealing an election, that is where they finally, mike pence finally found the sort of straw that broke the camel's back and could no longer support him. so it is interesting that he is not endorsing him. it is interesting he is on fox news willing to say this. but in some ways it is not surprising. obviously, mitch mcconnell is someone who was also very pointedly criticizing donald trump. but at the end of the day, at least for now, still the leader of republicans. so he feels a different way in

terms of the future of the party. mike pence says i'm not doing this. this is not someone i will back anymore. so it is interesting but not surprising. >> the phrase hang mike pence is where former vp pence found his red line. thank you all for starting us off. you at home? don't go anywhere. because when we come back, it is time for our night cap and i promise you, we have an incredible group of young journalists to talk social media. scratching the surface of the real problem. and later with misinformation running wild online, we will get to the importance of journalism with some of the industries. future stars. we will end the week on a high note. if you believe youth is the key to our future, we have stars. the 11th hour just getting understood way on a great friday night. a great friday night. there? who can treat this? stop typing, and start talking.

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republicans and democrats have found one thing they agree on. tiktok is a threat to national security. a bill to force the sale of the chinese owned app or ban it outright flew through the house. and now it is with the senate. for the 170 million americans addicted to tiktok videos, the future is not looking very good. with that, let's bring in our night cap. i couldn't be more excited

about who is joining. four outstanding student journalists from across the country who have done amazing work. the youngest ever recipient of the polk award. the student newspaper at the university of north carolina chapel hill. she is here in new york to receive the columbia scholastic press association award. and, your op ed got national attention for its president on harvard president claudine gay. natalia, what do you think of the potential ban? >> i think it will affect turnout. i saw how for a lot of offices,

they were receiving a lot of calls from young voters. and, also teenagers asking to avoid the ban. and i think it is important to note that when we are considering what will be important for young voters and how presidential candidates should implement that into their campaign if they want to garner that vote. >> it t ban is not put in place because the kids are going outside to play baseball because they are on the tiktok. the issue is over national security. do you think those young voters realize that? >> i would say for the most part they are not aware that is an actual reason social security on the floor. it is unfortunate they are not aware. i would just hope they looked further into the issue so that they are able to make an informed decision. >> what do you think about this? >> i mean listen. social media companies don't

use data well. i don't think this is breaking news to anyone. of course there is the overtone here which is that. >> i don't think you mean they don't use it well. they are not using it for good purposes. >> they are using it very sophisticatedly. but not for ends we deem good. >> not just tiktok? >> not just tiktok. listen i get it. it is a chinese company that plays into a bigger geo political narrative. but meta has more data, uses it with greater sophistication and we have more cases where they have used it perfectly. that is not to say tiktok is not a national security threat. but we talked about what social media and phones in general has done to childhood. and i think that to me one of the primary causes of the mental health crisis, that to me is what i would like to see congress thinking more deeply about. we have had tons of hearings

about how big tech uses monopoly power. how big tech makes people self- conscious of their bodies or appearances. but this goes so much deeper than self-image. it is hard to listen to people rattle on about tiktok when there is a fundamental crisis in american childhood producing crises in american adults now. >> but the hearings are great big entertainment shows. all the big time lobbyists are entertaining those lawmakers sitting up there railing against the companies yet nothing gets done. i see you nodding your medicate lip. it is not just tiktok. all the companies. we basically don't have any of them. >> i don't think, it is a chinese company well known for being a chinese company and

popular with young people, what i worry about is censorship, but also those who rely on it to get their message out. young people like us who use it to, i hate to say it, give an idea of what the political world is like, but that's what we are using it for. so taking it off the market is cutting off some valuable ties between young people and the rest of the world. >> but isn't there a risk that is what young people are using it for, tiktok as their news source, all of you have a deep understanding of standards and practices. you know as editors, all that gets left on the cutting room floor as exciting and fun as it is, unless it meets the standard, there are no standards when it comes to the platforms. >> i would be hesitant to dismiss tiktok too quickly as a national security threat.

telling how chinese authorities had a back door into accessing sensitive data and tiktok. after that, the chinese company byte dance put her and other reporters under surveillance. for me, putting journalists under surveillance is a big no no. it came out last year in court filings in 2018, tiktok was being used to track hong kong protesters so for me this goes beyond the conversations about xenophobia which are conversations to have. but we should not be dismissive of how authoritarian regimes have been using technology to crack down on protest res and advocacy groups and journalists. >> i would note quickly that meta like its friend tiktok has been complicit in genocide and a tool of authoritarian regimes. that is not to say tiktok is not in its own way a national security threat. it is. but it is worth broadening the conversation to meta which is one of the biggest companies in

the world. it has more data and uses it in sophisticated ways. >> do you believe that if tiktok gets banded, it only makes meta more powerful? >> well, i think that is one concern. in reality, there is a bigger company with more data and a long and fairly sordid history of using it in ways we should disagree with. >> could there be political fallout for these lawmakers who move forward? republicans are the one pushing it. joe biden who needs to appeal to young voters right now. do you think there could be fallout for young people who use tiktok in all the ways katelyn was just saying could say wait, you are already 80 years old. now you are taking away my jam. you are not my guy. >> i certainly think so.

and we have this all or nothing approach to tiktok or any social media platform. if we can't regulate it, we will ban it. and the solution is to ban it, we are not holding anyone accountable. we are not creating any kind of standards for these companies. we just kind of say okay, that's it, we're done. but really, the work is not yet there and young voters are there to deal with the consequences. >> one of the biggest worries about social media is the spread of misinformation. the biggest i guess most viral story this week of course. one i'm not proud of, that i have been down the rabbit hole day in and night over. is this doctored photo of kate middleton and her family. i too would like to know where she is. but the manipulation of this photo raises all sorts of question that's on one hand, you know, question. people were able to snuff it

out immediately. but on the other, what about next time? and the time after that? are you concerned that in this moment of ai, photos can be doctored overnight and we won't know the difference between the truth and a lie? >> i think that. >> do you know where she is? >> no. i think that in regard to what we were previously speaking about pertaining to tiktok, i think our focus should be more on regulating ai so that instances like this can't occur. and unfortunately, i think effective regulation comes with collaboration. working with ai companies to prevent situations like this from happening and you can think of all the terrible implications that come from that. >> does this photo, though, weaken already weak trust in our institutions, our platforms, i mean, it is stunning. >> i think for a long time, the photo and the video was kind of

the gold standard of truth. you saw a photo of something you could know it was true. you could see it with your own eyes. that is what people used to say. now for the first time, i think, we are seeing photos. we have been able to edit photos for a little while now and you can generate a photo that fundamentally did not happen. i think it brings to bear a really important question. which is what do we do politically and kind of as citizens when we are not living in a shared reality anymore? it is a profoundly challenging thing that yes. regulators will have to grapple with. but the response has to go much deeper. >> what do you think? we are approaching a time where we can't believe the photos and videos we are seeing. >> yeah. i mean, i would hesitate saying how unprecedented this is.

i spent a lot of last year dealing with doctored images. these were papers up to 20 years old where they were splicing together images. this is well before ai tools were able to generate stuff like this. the tradition goes back to stali n n censors. >> we are barreling ahead so quickly. to think about efforts to actually properly identify deep fake content. these are hard questions and the arms race is already afoot. it is a little bit too late to put the genie back in the bottle so the most important thing is for people to have skepticism. >> isn't that the scariest problem that stanford might be the gold standard, but there

are all sorts of bad actors with this technology and who knows what they could do. >> absolutely. and it is clear they will get manipulated more with the advent of tools like sora. these will get shockingly better. just in one year, we have seen massive transportation, we should be keeping an eye on this. because it will get a lot worse before it gets better. >> is part of the problem for misinformation that people like conspiracy theories? they want to push them? >> i think so. i think especially for young people. and what i think about ai is notable from instances in the past where people have been not so trustworthy is that it is democratic. any of us could get on chatgpt or go doctor an image. not to give too much credit to ai. that has a long way to go.

i know people who could photoshop kate middleton's photo a little better than she did. but what is happening with ai now, earn can access it. so it makes trust kind of difficult on every level. >> is there good news here? in terms of the kate middleton picture, people cared enough. they dug into it. they got to the truth. does this give you some sense of hope that people demand the truth? >> yes i would say it gives me a sense of hope in media literacy. people are not taking things at face value and that is important moving forward. and that is important. >> what happens when it is not kate middleton? what happens when it is an issue that 5,000 people care about and not 50 million? i appreciate the point that misinformation is nothing new. but at the same time. >> it's ability to amplify it is new. >> my friend's ability to edit

their photo to look better. the ability to create a video that never happened. a photo that never happened. to depict people in places with other people that were never together, that is a brand new thing. it is kind of a watershed moment. i think that it requires a real rethink about how we approach misinformation in the public sphere. >> we will stay on this conversation after the break. we say here all the time, the truth matters but only if you see it. we will talk about the future of journalism in the 11th hour and the night cap continue. and the night cap continue. numbers move you. but some can stop you in your tracks. like the tens of thousands of people who were diagnosed with certain hpv-related cancers. for most people, hpv clears on its own. but for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers. gardasil 9 is a vaccine given to adults through age 45 that can help protect against certain diseases caused by hpv.

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whether you realize it or not, we need good journalism for democracy to thrive. we talk about it all the time here. it is not just the fight against misinformation. recently, there have been massive layoffs across the industry. and local newspapers are getting wiped out around this country. but we at this table have the future of journalism right here giving me great hope. natalia, what role does your college paper play in the local community? >> with recent industry wide layoffs there has been a great hindrance in reporting at the

local level. because people are fighting to keep their jobs. and that is why collegiate journalism is so important. because it allows us to inform the public. and not just supplement for the lack of reporting that is happening due to local papers. losing funding, and getting rid of them altogether. >> you were trying to separate fact from fiction in your paper. what concerns do you have about the future of journalism when you see that more and more outlets are shutting down every day? >> yeah. let me start by saying i love student journalism and even more, i love local journal im. and in chapel hill, it is a 131- year-old paper. the only newspaper of paper for orange county north carolina. we have a big service to our community and we are just students so i think one big part getting students really involved is one creating pathways to becoming actual professional journalists but

making more sustainable business practices. local journalism needs to sustain itself going into the future. i'm glad we are talking about it because it is the only way things will get done. >> fewer and fewer young people are getting their news from traditional sources. how concerning is that for you? >> for me that's a big issue. we talk about bias in the media a lot. but the thing a lot of people don't seem to realize about these older newspapers, a lot of eyes going into a story. if an individual has bias, fine. but the idea is you can correct for that by having so many different people with so many different views trying to have a say and make it as perfectly factual as you can get it. you don't see that on tiktok or with independent journalists and you can absolutely see individual people going out and doing gung amazing work.

but you will not have the same controls for quality. raising that baseline is important. >> do you think the average person realizes that? >> i think a lot of people don't understand what goes into journalism. i remember last year. with i talked to ten people for every person i quoted in the article. that is not something people have a real conception of and that's okay, it means you are putting out the most distilled quality product you can. but i think people discount the work that goes into it and they don't understand why it matters so much. >> but that's the issue. quality journalism is expensive. and right now, people are saying i don't want to pay for it. i don't need to pay for it. >> yeah. it is a huge concern. the thing people don't fully grasp is local journalism does not just cover local stories for a very long time in america's history. it was the fabricover a community. you could pick up a paper that would cover ongoing events in your town and your county. and that would be how you

engaged with them civically so it is really not just a crisis of local journalism but engagement. you have people who are only engaging with national political issues. and allows so many things at the state and local level to go under the hood, to never be talked about and it means important issues where a lot of the action happens at the local and state level. don't get as much attention as they deserve and people are not held to account in the same way. >> people often say they are tired of the news. they find the news super biased. when you are actually doing your reporting, do you necessarily think that the news is biased or are there people who just don't like the end result? >> as a news reporter i believe it is important for us to not be politically biased at all. however i think there has been a great political shift in the landscape to where political bias has been conflated with morality or moral bias.

and especially over the last ten years, even more specifically i would say since the summer of 2020 in response to police brutality and race relations in america, there has been a shift. and for that particular instance and within that context t unbiased coverage didn't tell the full truth and it lacked nuance. and that's why i think it is super important for there to be diversity in journalism. >> being a student journalist, you have student news consumers. often as people get older their views harder. do you find your reader haves more open minds or are they set in their ways when it comes to politic ins. >> ohs? >> in chapel hill, we have an open mind student body.

it is on us to meet people where they are at. people need to care about the news but i push back on the idea we have to make it a certain way. we have to meet people where they are at. if people are getting the news on tiktok or instagram, we have the ability to make news to meet the need s. >> my feeling about student journalism, students on the campuses, they have been getting reported on so much. the thing about student and local journalism it is better. it is local journalism. something i have watched a lot. there have been a lot of narratives spinning around about my school harvard. and i think the way that i have watched publications like the times or the washington post cover the issues has at times been unsatisfying. as a student. i can personally fact check some of the claims they are making and they usually get it mostly right. but the slant, the angle.

the exact way they are framing things, there is something missing because they just don't have the local or student context to give us the real analysis about what's happening. >> what do you think? >> i totally buy that and i hear from the different perspectives coming into journalism which is important. we need to rethink the model. i would say i don't really care the platform it is on. but the quality needs to stay the same and it is not just about ensuring that we are putting the hours into the reporting. it is that we as reporters are upholding our responsibility. and i love the journalism. my peers doing amazing work. but if there is one thing that can bed said, it is that a lot of young people want to bring their own opinions and advocacy into journalism. journalism is a public good. right? that means it requires some individual sacrifice. it is all well and good to have opinions and all well and good to have advocacy. we need that. but, that does not align with

unbiased journalism. >> what was it like for you at harvard? the harvard crimson. it is like you are in the mouth of the lion during a controversy swelling around claudine gay. >> i leave the opinion section for the crimson. the thing i was repeating over and over again while all of the narratives are swirling around about our campus, we need to be able to say the sky is blue. some facts are actually verifyable. octave. they have a commitment to in motion of objectivity. where you have to treat all the sides. you don't just have to give them equal consideration, but treat them as actually equal in substance. if a former presidential candidate says i actually won in 2020 when he lost, you have to pretend sometimes there is validity to the claims when we know they are not true. on my pam cushion, i would tell my team we have the freedom to

say this is not true. we can count the number of di administrators, not that many. you can make perfectly legit arguments about the right place of di at harvard but it is important to say in all caps, di bureaucrats do not run harvard because they don't. it is tim for the mvps of the week. there is so much news this week. the 11th hours continues. it's night cap night. the 11th hours continues. it's night cap night. ve got to. mom! (♪♪) -thanks mom. -yeah. (♪♪) (♪♪) you were made to dream about it for years.

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thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. all right gang, i'm not letting you go to bed without this. our night cap is wrapping up with our mvps of the week. let us be clearment you are all my mvps . i'm amazed and inspired and excited by every single one of you. but i want to hear who you have chosen. katelyn? >> yeah, this week i really wanted to pick andrea long chu. her cover story is called freedom of sex. the moral case for letting trans kids change their bodies. and i think her writings in support of transgender youth in particular has been transformative. especially at a time when trans youth and marginalized youth need a voice in journalism speaking up for them. >> tomas? >> my vp for the week of the

president of my alma mater father christopher devron who published an essay in the leading catholic essay, a catholic alternative, diversity and inclusion. di is great or di sucks. it is refreshing to see a leader in education speaking fourth rightly about what his school is doing to make sure the di is achieving its adeals and the point he makes in the essay which i encourage everyone to read, it is important that we link di not just to these kind of narrow procedural goals but situate it in a broader framework. that to me was the mvp of my week. >> and it is about humanity. >> it is about humanity. >> natalia? >> my mvp of the week is regina king. i had the opportunity to attend an early screening at the museum of african american

history and culture. >> did everyone bring folding chairs? >> we were in a little theater but alongside her cast members and some black women congress members as well. and it was really a great experience. i will say i was inspired hearing from her about the struggles she experienced making the film. and bringing shirley's story to the forefront. and, movie itself is amazing. there is so much to learn from regina king as well as shirley chism. >> she was talking about what it has been like. she said grief is when love has nowhere to go. >> my eyes were not dry watching that. last one to you my friend. if you were not aware, theo is the son of peter baker and susan glasser and last week, my mvp was his hockey playing

grandmother. >> 82. >> bad journalism. i think i said she was 83. >> mine is also a tear jerker. i want to talk about the ap team about 20 days in mariupol. the documentary about the russian invasion of ukraine. and talk about something that you can't not cry watching. they represent all that i care about in journal im. this is heroism. these are the people telling the stories that no one else will tell. >> he said he didn't want to win the oscar. >> he didn't want to win the oscar. he wanted no war. and that to me is heroism. >> my goodness. you are an impressive bunch. >> my mvp gives me enormous joy every day. and sometimes, it really frustrates me. i know i'm not the only one. it is wordle. today it is celebrating its 1,000th game created by josh

wardle during the pandemic. it has been played near 5 billion times and i am one of those people who plays every single day. i'm in a very special group led by quest love and i love it but this game is now one of the reasons the new york times is doing so well. remember the times bought it a few years ago. well its popularity now encourages people to subscribe to the new york times and those subscriptions support great important journalism. so happy 1,000th wordle game to all of you out there. may your first line be all in green. all right gang. theo, katelyn, tommy, natalia. thank you all for being here and i wish you at home a very good night. remember, you can catch the night cap fridays and saturdays, 11:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. from all of our colleagues across the network from nbc news, thanks for staying up late. see you at the end of monday. f

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